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Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174)
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Poll: Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174)
Spot on, aid is complete BS 10 / 17%
I'd like to stab the author through the jaw with a sky hook 10 / 17%
I don't see what all the arguing is about 10 / 17%
I'm going to get some popcorn, this is gonna be good 28 / 48%
58 total votes
 

dingus


Dec 11, 2008, 9:02 AM
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Re: [Valarc] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174) [In reply to]
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Valarc wrote:
dingus wrote:
You will quickly note - there is no solidarity and this so-called community is rather a very loose association of individualists, none of whom appreciate being told what to do.

But so many of them seem to love telling everyone else what to do. That's the part that grinds my gears.

I've been climbing some 35 years and 20 of that in and around Yosemite.

I've never been told how to climb by any of these blokes, not once.

Too often, when we climbers attempt to describe our own personal mores and rules? We define it in such a way as it sounds like we are criticizing other climbers in the process.

Others take that as a personal indictment of their own personal rules and mores.

Valarc, one thing rings loud and clear in your posts on this topic - you don't like being told what to do either.

I think you must be a climber!

I celebrate the uncompromising hard asses like Kohl. I think our climbing world would be poorer without his like, without him.

I truly mean that. I think our sport would be less without Maestri and the Compressor Route, and Cooke and his fake ascent of McKinley.

Think back on the history of it all and I think you may agree - this sport was invented and defined by individuals, often making it up as they went. Often they began their careers by dispensing with the rule book the previous generations handed them.

And we celebrate their stories and their legends in the grand halls of climbing (fireside chats in the trees by a campsite!). We buy their books and laugh at the ridiculousness of it all.

We don't celebrate climbing groups by and large. Or didn't. I can't speak for the current crop obviously. Things may be a-changing again.

But in my experience it is that very individualism that makes this sport so, um, unique. To me anyway.

But at the start of the day? Ya puts yer shoes on and ya chalks yer hands, you touch fingers to stone and suddenly.... YOU'RE CLIMBING.

And all this shit fades to white noise, eh?

Cheers dude
DMT


dingus


Dec 11, 2008, 9:03 AM
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Re: [refugee] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174) [In reply to]
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refugee wrote:
It's a gross exaggeration to say "kalous retro-bolted an A5"

Yes of course. The gander got goosed with his own medicine. As he fully expected to?

And yes, he retro'd a Klaus route. That isn't a crime, but it IS a fact.

DMT


dingus


Dec 11, 2008, 9:09 AM
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Re: [refugee] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174) [In reply to]
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refugee wrote:
What about tommy caldwell, alex huber, and many others who have retro-bolted aid climbs to protect free-climbing variations? Are they pussies too? I'd love to see anyone who thinks so say that to Alex's face.

Ah the ole 'my dog is bigger'n your dog.'

My hero is more pure than yours.

My dad can whip your dad.

Well played. Carry on.

DMT


refugee


Dec 11, 2008, 9:18 AM
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Re: [dingus] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174) [In reply to]
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That's your response?


dingus


Dec 11, 2008, 9:22 AM
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Re: [refugee] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174) [In reply to]
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Yes. You paraphrased the original troll video and troll article. You trolled with nothing new and zero originality. You trolled a childish challenge lacking any substance whatsoever. You got the troll response you earned.

You're welcome.

DMT


Partner robdotcalm


Dec 11, 2008, 9:23 AM
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Re: [refugee] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174) [In reply to]
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refugee wrote:
The reason the "big wall community" has such a strong presence online is because they're all old out-of-shape and out-of-touch climbers who don't climb anymore and just sit at home and spray their out-dated ethics and try to convince the new climbers who come online of their archaic system that still places them and what they do above anything else happening today.

It's such a farce. Warren Harding would have a field day with this ...

I agree with you. Because of my gray hair, people often ask me if I aid climb. I take that as an insult. I tell them I'm too young to bother with aid climbing. When I get really old and can't pull anymore, then I'll try it even thought it doesn't seem like much fun.

Cheers,
Rob.calm

(This post was edited by robdotcalm on Dec 11, 2008, 10:16 AM)


mince


Dec 11, 2008, 9:26 AM
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Re: [refugee] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174) [In reply to]
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I agree in some ways that aid climbing is outdated and free climbing is a much more modern and better alternative. However unless you are consistently free climbing hard 5.12 and 5.13 pitches then doing a wall all free is going to be quite challenging. So to dismiss aid altogether would be simply foolish and limiting to your big wall choices.
Also as far as "all" hooks being enhanced or secure this is not the case in areas outside of Yosemite. If the ranter thinks that any "fairly" experience aid climber can do hard hook moves; then i challenge him to try some A3 or A4 hook pitches in say the black canon. I think that he will quickly discover the challenge.
Basically aid climbing is a necessary evil, and if you don't want to aid climb and cont free 5.13 then your kinda screwed if your going to do a bunch of grade VI climbs (there are some exceptions however).


dingus


Dec 11, 2008, 9:55 AM
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Re: [refguee] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174) [In reply to]
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You're fast but fast enough Sir!

refugee wrote:
But you stoked this thread by making Fox News-style attacks on a person who put together a pretty damn logical and compelling argument,

Ah we have a True Believer here. You put more credence to the rant than does the author it appears. Joke's on you mate.

In reply to:
and then when you got called out for being one of the fat losers who thinks aid climbing is cool because you're too weak to do anything significant, you reverted into a "hey, man, everything's relative, bro!" argument.

Nope. You're wrong. But at least you're using your OWN WORDS this time. Bravo.

In reply to:
Have you climbed A5? Have you climbed 5.13? Have you free climbed El Cap? Kalous has ... maybe you should listen to what he has to say instead of speaking from an out-dated, now totally irrelevant position.

No and I haven't retrobolted other peoples' routes either.

I did listen to what he said. He made many good points, so what? If you think aid climbing is totally irrelevant however, you may want to take peek outside the valley.

In reply to:
I know it's frustrating to watch your connection to a sport you once knew fade

I'm sure you do.

The original troll leveraged group insecurities to level the same ole tired gambit... its the same sort of guff trad climbers give the Pad People; intercene tribal jokster warfare bullshit. More akin to The Dozens than anything else really. Good fun, but not to be taken too seriously.

Its as old as the hills. So what?

In terms of hard aid being irrelevant - it is only irrelevant to those of us who aren't doing it.... who in turn are irrelevant to the aid climbers. And they are the only ones that matter.

Me, I don't like hard aid and can't really claim to have ever liked aiding much at all. Wall climbing is a big mind fuck and its terribly hard work to boot, But I'm glad I did it though and am glad I was able to rise above my fears and endure my insecurities and anxieties. When learning this sport I never imagined I'd get up those huge chunks of rock.

No I will never free climb El Cap, that much I know. But Ive had lots of fun in this sport and have taken much value from it. Aside from some gentle poking I never needed to boost my own self-worth by running down other climbing styles.

There is room for us all, on El Cap, on other big walls and through out the climbing world. I have a lot of respect for hardass climbers, regardless of styles really.

DMT


(This post was edited by dingus on Dec 11, 2008, 9:55 AM)


flamer


Dec 17, 2008, 10:24 AM
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Re: [dingus] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174) [In reply to]
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dingus wrote:
The author retrobolted an A5 route

What bolt/climb was that?
Are you talking about adding a bolt to an anchor?
There is more to that then he retrobolted an A5 route.

josh


camhead


Dec 17, 2008, 10:42 AM
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Re: [flamer] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174) [In reply to]
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I read Kalous's article the other day. I liked it, although his drunken youtube rant is more entertaining.

And in the article, he came straight out and said something like "once I added a bolt to a belay on an A5, whihc apparently pissed a lot of people off."

if this is what dingus keeps vaguely referring to, then big fricking deal.


dingus


Dec 17, 2008, 12:52 PM
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Re: [camhead] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174) [In reply to]
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Look you boobs.... this dude trolled the climbing world. I trolled back. Some of you are wrapped WAY TO TIGHT for this internet gig.

If you think I give a tinkers damn about this whole wag fest you are sadly sadly mistaken.

DMT


flamer


Dec 17, 2008, 2:13 PM
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Re: [dingus] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174) [In reply to]
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dingus wrote:
this dude trolled the climbing world. I trolled back.

"this dude" Gave his honest opinion...which was gleaned from experience at the top end of both side's.
A troll? Not, not really. Did it piss a lot of folks off? yes.
What you did is lie, to try and discredit him.
A troll?
Maybe.
A lie by DMT?
Yes.

josh


shimanilami


Dec 17, 2008, 2:48 PM
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Re: [flamer] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174) [In reply to]
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Nah. It seemed to me that the guy had self esteem issues. He sprayed about how radical he is and how lame aid is in a transparent attempt to elevate his own (self) image.

The point he misses is that noone - at least, noone that I know - aid climbs for an ego boost. We do it because it's fun. Ratings are there to give others an idea of how difficult/dangerous a climb is so that they know what they're getting into, not so that they can post to 8a.nu and calculate their world ranking.


shimanilami


Dec 17, 2008, 2:58 PM
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And I don't believe it was a troll. There was too much passion in his words to claim that he was just baiting us. He was vested.


flamer


Dec 17, 2008, 4:39 PM
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Re: [shimanilami] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174) [In reply to]
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shimanilami wrote:
Nah. It seemed to me that the guy had self esteem issues. He sprayed about how radical he is and how lame aid is in a transparent attempt to elevate his own (self) image.

The point he misses is that noone - at least, noone that I know - aid climbs for an ego boost. We do it because it's fun. Ratings are there to give others an idea of how difficult/dangerous a climb is so that they know what they're getting into, not so that they can post to 8a.nu and calculate their world ranking.

I disagree about the self esteem comment.
He is sharing his opinion on the ethic difference's, a shortsided(and closed) rating system, and the fact that aid limit's maybe pushed as far as they can go...difficulty wise.
Keep in mind you're talking about someone at the top of both free and aid climbing(well apparently not aid anymore).
Self esteem doesn't play in.

Aid climbers NOT sparying?
I got a good laugh out of that one.

josh


dingus


Dec 17, 2008, 5:44 PM
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Re: [flamer] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174) [In reply to]
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flamer wrote:
dingus wrote:
this dude trolled the climbing world. I trolled back.

"this dude" Gave his honest opinion...which was gleaned from experience at the top end of both side's.
A troll? Not, not really.

Absolutely 100% a troll,

In reply to:
Did it piss a lot of folks off? yes.

Haha.

In reply to:
What you did is lie, to try and discredit him.
A troll?
Maybe.
A lie by DMT?
Yes.

He retrobolted someone else's route. Bottom line.

It is not a lie. He went up on a Kohl route... retrobolted it and then criticized it for mfg. danger.

That is EXACTLY what happened.


DMT

josh


dingus


Dec 17, 2008, 5:47 PM
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Re: [flamer] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174) [In reply to]
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flamer wrote:
Aid climbers NOT sparying?
I got a good laugh out of that one.

josh

You're funny. This dude successfully leaveraged your bias that much is clear. I laugh robustly.

DMT


dingus


Dec 17, 2008, 5:50 PM
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Some of ou talk about 'aid climbers' like there is some legion of lock stepping automatons all a-doin and all a-saying the same thing.

Its the same old tribal bullshit.

DMT


flamer


Dec 17, 2008, 7:45 PM
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Re: [dingus] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174) [In reply to]
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dingus wrote:
If you think I give a tinkers damn about this whole wag fest you are sadly sadly mistaken.

Then why do you keep posting?

And why won't you name the route that he supposedly retrobolted and where that bolt was placed?
Without proof you are just spraying.

If he put in a good bolt at a bad anchor than that's hardly changing an A5 pitch.

So DMT....do you care to back up your claims? Or are they just the lies and spray they sound like?

josh


Valarc


Dec 17, 2008, 9:45 PM
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dingus wrote:
Some of ou talk about 'aid climbers' like there is some legion of lock stepping automatons all a-doin and all a-saying the same thing.
And the trad climbers act the same way towards sport climbers, and sport climbers act the same way towards boulderers. And you can't exactly blame people - some of the loudest, most obnoxious old-school climbers are also the most revered, and those are the ones spraying on and on about "our way is the only way". When the 'legends' within a group work so hard to create a hive mind (where they happen to be the 'queens') can you really blame folks for forming broad generalizations?


Valarc


Dec 17, 2008, 9:49 PM
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flamer wrote:
And why won't you name the route that he supposedly retrobolted and where that bolt was placed?
Without proof you are just spraying.

You're arguing semantics. By the strictest definition of the community's made-up word, adding bolts in any way, including at an anchor, is a retrobolt. I think you're being harsh to call DMT a liar, but I also think he's being intentionally anal with the definition to make the original rant look weaker than it might otherwise look.


i_h8_choss


Dec 17, 2008, 11:18 PM
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Re: [rocks_good_hippies_bad] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174) [In reply to]
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rocks_good_hippies_bad wrote:
Haha. Try to follow my logic:

If there's no such thing as the A5 death fall...but he needed to retrobolt it...then...why? Two reasons:

1. Because there IS such thing as the A5 death fall
OR
2. Because he's too much of a euro-trash bolt-clipping nancy to take the big (and not so deadly) whip!

I say grab the hooks and duct tape not the bosch and bolts.



HAHAHAHAH!!! best user name ever!! oh and aid is cool.


dingus


Dec 18, 2008, 2:39 AM
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Re: [Valarc] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174) [In reply to]
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Valarc wrote:
flamer wrote:
And why won't you name the route that he supposedly retrobolted and where that bolt was placed?
Without proof you are just spraying.

You're arguing semantics. By the strictest definition of the community's made-up word, adding bolts in any way, including at an anchor, is a retrobolt. I think you're being harsh to call DMT a liar, but I also think he's being intentionally anal with the definition to make the original rant look weaker than it might otherwise look.

Oh MY ! Definitions! This must be the internet.

I don't see a problem with those who fancy to pursue hard aid. Not one bit. Do they ALL SPRAY about how lame everyone else is? Hahahahahahaha!

I don't have a problem with those who pursue hard trad, (so long as they aren't retrobolting other peoples' routes without permission). I don't have a problem with easy trad either. Nor sport. Nor bouldering (all though I can't really boulder anymore)

Proof? Jesus christ watch his drinken rant video. Its concluded with the ever popular 'you don't have to clip it,'

Heros? There ain't a climber, living nor dead, that is a hero by virtue of climbing. That is laughable.

DMT


moof


Dec 20, 2008, 10:04 AM
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Re: [jh_angel] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174) [In reply to]
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God, people still read Rap and Chisel?

Shut up and go climb.


doktor_g


Jan 29, 2009, 8:59 AM
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Re: [Lazlo] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174) [In reply to]
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Well, I haven't read that trashy mag in a while... but I have seen some Colorado hardman poo poo the Valley and Aid climbing.

I only have few questions regarding ethics:

1. Was he the original route author?
2. Did he get permission from the route author for the retrobolting?

If the answer to both of those questions is no, I think his 'ethical' foundation from which to poo poo someone else's style or grade (ie A5) is and will continue to be... shakey.

PS: Having poor pro (ie a rivet) should not preclude someone from freeing a line. If he thinks that it needs to be replaced because it has become unusable for the original style (ie aid) then it needs to be replaced, and I think could be without permission.

When would it be OK to retrobolt a crack that's traditionally been freed but has a run-out blank section? You'd be rightfully waylayed if you retrobolted the blank section without permission from the author. Same here IMHO.

He's effectively dumbing down the grade by improving the pro... if that is what happened.

g

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