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Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174)
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Poll: Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174)
Spot on, aid is complete BS 10 / 17%
I'd like to stab the author through the jaw with a sky hook 10 / 17%
I don't see what all the arguing is about 10 / 17%
I'm going to get some popcorn, this is gonna be good 28 / 48%
58 total votes
 

kristoffer


Jan 29, 2009, 4:03 PM
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Re: [doktor_g] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174) [In reply to]
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So how was this pitch A5 if it had a rivet.. Any drilling or enhancing automatically knocked that pitch out of ever being classified as a true new wave A5 pitch...

Screw it.. Aid climbers should not trip out over people freeing old school aid lines.. Think of it as motivation and an incentive to step up your skills and nerve in the aiders and put up sicker routes that cant quite be free climbed yet.. Both sides of the sport need to keep being pushed.. sure its not as cut and dry as I put it… there is still a massive slough of ethics involved, but don’t nuke it guys… any ways that why we now have the new wave aid ratings. Things just gotta be pushed.

that’s my 2 cents.
cheers- the zephyr


theguy


Jan 29, 2009, 5:24 PM
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Re: [jeremy11] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174) [In reply to]
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Ooh, can I play?

jeremy11 wrote:
I would love to see aid difficulty get pushed, perhaps even cutting edge routes were multiple falls are taken in order to figure out the move.

It's been done; not everyone as enthusiastic as you.

dingus wrote:
aid climbers ...don't seem to suffer this need for consistency and a vanilla world where all rules are the same and everyone plays the same fucking game

Some seem to, but then maybe you don't know them personally; that inconsistent world cuts both ways...

[edited for precision]


(This post was edited by theguy on Jan 29, 2009, 5:30 PM)


dingus


Jan 30, 2009, 6:41 AM
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Re: [theguy] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174) [In reply to]
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Pretty funny, citing wings of steel. I'm not touching that steaming pile with a 20' pole.

But suffice it to say all the participants, all of them, are well advanced middle aged men, balding and what have you.

Kohl is getting up there too, but that isn't really the point is it?

This desperate need for conformity and consistency has its roots in one thing - spray and ego; determining pack position.

The entire argument of the original author, in the video certainly, was based upon this need, and therefore rendered lame as cat piss.

The whole thing is cat piss.

DMT


Gmburns2000


Jan 30, 2009, 8:14 AM
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Re: [dingus] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174) [In reply to]
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dingus wrote:
Pretty funny, citing wings of steel. I'm not touching that steaming pile with a 20' pole.

But suffice it to say all the participants, all of them, are well advanced middle aged men, balding and what have you.

Kohl is getting up there too, but that isn't really the point is it?

This desperate need for conformity and consistency has its roots in one thing - spray and ego; determining pack position.

The entire argument of the original author, in the video certainly, was based upon this need, and therefore rendered lame as cat piss.

The whole thing is cat piss.

DMT

Huh, maybe that's why he changed the bolt.


chris


Jan 30, 2009, 9:11 AM
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Re: [Lazlo] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174) [In reply to]
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Without bothering to read all 5+ pages of carefully thought out opinions and drunk ramblings, I do find it interesting that we, as a group:

1. Get really, Really, REALLY upset when someone aids a climb that was originally done free - especially when the aid involves nailing. In fact, this is so unacceptable that I can't think of an example of it taking place, though there are several examples of aid climbs that pounded their way through routes that had been attempted, but not finished, free.

2. It is still acceptable to continue aid climbing - clean or hammered - even though a route has been freed. While I can understand continuing to climb aid routes using clean techniques, it still makes me scratch my head. We seem to celebrate the rock and alpine climbers who climb routes with minimal impact (unless we're Russian), but we allow others the freedom to continue climbing a route in what may be argued a "lesser" style.

Since observation #2 is most commonly seen in the heavily climbed sacred grounds of Zion, Yosemite, and others, its not a big enough issue for me to loose a lot of sleep over. But I wonder what I would do if I found out that someone had hammered his way up one of the multi-pitch routes I've established in the Eastern Sierra.

Hmmm...


dingus


Jan 30, 2009, 10:22 AM
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Re: [chris] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174) [In reply to]
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chris wrote:
2. It is still acceptable to continue aid climbing - clean or hammered - even though a route has been freed.

No I don't believe this is accepted, in total, certainly not in Yosemite. While it may happen from time to time it is generally considered bad form round here to nail freed routes.

Now HOW the route got freed may factor into subsequent discussions.

DMT


Gmburns2000


Jan 30, 2009, 10:31 AM
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Re: [chris] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174) [In reply to]
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chris wrote:
Without bothering to read all 5+ pages of carefully thought out opinions and drunk ramblings, I do find it interesting that we, as a group:

1. Get really, Really, REALLY upset when someone aids a climb that was originally done free - especially when the aid involves nailing. In fact, this is so unacceptable that I can't think of an example of it taking place, though there are several examples of aid climbs that pounded their way through routes that had been attempted, but not finished, free.

2. It is still acceptable to continue aid climbing - clean or hammered - even though a route has been freed. While I can understand continuing to climb aid routes using clean techniques, it still makes me scratch my head. We seem to celebrate the rock and alpine climbers who climb routes with minimal impact (unless we're Russian), but we allow others the freedom to continue climbing a route in what may be argued a "lesser" style.

Since observation #2 is most commonly seen in the heavily climbed sacred grounds of Zion, Yosemite, and others, its not a big enough issue for me to loose a lot of sleep over. But I wonder what I would do if I found out that someone had hammered his way up one of the multi-pitch routes I've established in the Eastern Sierra.

Hmmm...

I assume that with #1 you are talking about significant climbs, because I know people who aid stuff just to practice aiding (or to learn or teach, etc). Sometimes these are on routes that are generally climbed free. Maybe #1 needs to be broken down even further into asking why a particular style is chosen, not just if it should be. Because let's face it, practicing aid on a free route is still aid-climbing the route.

As for #2, it seems to me that if we stopped folks from aiding routes that have since gone free that many of those routes would become off limits to a large swath of the climbing population. How many times has the Nose been freed? Would we really prohibit so many people to stop climbing it just because a handful of stellar athletes have freed it? I'm not so sure of that.


dingus


Jan 30, 2009, 11:41 AM
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Re: [Gmburns2000] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174) [In reply to]
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
chris wrote:
Without bothering to read all 5+ pages of carefully thought out opinions and drunk ramblings, I do find it interesting that we, as a group:

1. Get really, Really, REALLY upset when someone aids a climb that was originally done free - especially when the aid involves nailing. In fact, this is so unacceptable that I can't think of an example of it taking place, though there are several examples of aid climbs that pounded their way through routes that had been attempted, but not finished, free.

2. It is still acceptable to continue aid climbing - clean or hammered - even though a route has been freed. While I can understand continuing to climb aid routes using clean techniques, it still makes me scratch my head. We seem to celebrate the rock and alpine climbers who climb routes with minimal impact (unless we're Russian), but we allow others the freedom to continue climbing a route in what may be argued a "lesser" style.

Since observation #2 is most commonly seen in the heavily climbed sacred grounds of Zion, Yosemite, and others, its not a big enough issue for me to loose a lot of sleep over. But I wonder what I would do if I found out that someone had hammered his way up one of the multi-pitch routes I've established in the Eastern Sierra.

Hmmm...

I assume that with #1 you are talking about significant climbs, because I know people who aid stuff just to practice aiding (or to learn or teach, etc). Sometimes these are on routes that are generally climbed free. Maybe #1 needs to be broken down even further into asking why a particular style is chosen, not just if it should be. Because let's face it, practicing aid on a free route is still aid-climbing the route.

As for #2, it seems to me that if we stopped folks from aiding routes that have since gone free that many of those routes would become off limits to a large swath of the climbing population. How many times has the Nose been freed? Would we really prohibit so many people to stop climbing it just because a handful of stellar athletes have freed it? I'm not so sure of that.

Point of order - its perfectly acceptable, imo and practice on the cliffs in Yosemite seems to reinforce this opinion, that CLEAN AID on freed routes is perfectly A-OK, unless you're hogging a highly prized free route on a busy day (different topic).

Its NAILING routes that have gone free, that except for a few anti-social folk, is not acceptable.

The ethics involved are more about rock and route preservation (and degrading due to iornmongery) and less to do with some spirtual bullshit that places free higher in the pecking order than aid.

Cheers
DMT


Gmburns2000


Jan 30, 2009, 1:38 PM
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Re: [dingus] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174) [In reply to]
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dingus wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
chris wrote:
Without bothering to read all 5+ pages of carefully thought out opinions and drunk ramblings, I do find it interesting that we, as a group:

1. Get really, Really, REALLY upset when someone aids a climb that was originally done free - especially when the aid involves nailing. In fact, this is so unacceptable that I can't think of an example of it taking place, though there are several examples of aid climbs that pounded their way through routes that had been attempted, but not finished, free.

2. It is still acceptable to continue aid climbing - clean or hammered - even though a route has been freed. While I can understand continuing to climb aid routes using clean techniques, it still makes me scratch my head. We seem to celebrate the rock and alpine climbers who climb routes with minimal impact (unless we're Russian), but we allow others the freedom to continue climbing a route in what may be argued a "lesser" style.

Since observation #2 is most commonly seen in the heavily climbed sacred grounds of Zion, Yosemite, and others, its not a big enough issue for me to loose a lot of sleep over. But I wonder what I would do if I found out that someone had hammered his way up one of the multi-pitch routes I've established in the Eastern Sierra.

Hmmm...

I assume that with #1 you are talking about significant climbs, because I know people who aid stuff just to practice aiding (or to learn or teach, etc). Sometimes these are on routes that are generally climbed free. Maybe #1 needs to be broken down even further into asking why a particular style is chosen, not just if it should be. Because let's face it, practicing aid on a free route is still aid-climbing the route.

As for #2, it seems to me that if we stopped folks from aiding routes that have since gone free that many of those routes would become off limits to a large swath of the climbing population. How many times has the Nose been freed? Would we really prohibit so many people to stop climbing it just because a handful of stellar athletes have freed it? I'm not so sure of that.

Point of order - its perfectly acceptable, imo and practice on the cliffs in Yosemite seems to reinforce this opinion, that CLEAN AID on freed routes is perfectly A-OK, unless you're hogging a highly prized free route on a busy day (different topic).

Its NAILING routes that have gone free, that except for a few anti-social folk, is not acceptable.

The ethics involved are more about rock and route preservation (and degrading due to iornmongery) and less to do with some spirtual bullshit that places free higher in the pecking order than aid.

Cheers
DMT

I hear that. I only have one Yos trip under my belt (and no big walls), but in one conversation I had with some folks about Zodiac it seemed that some people clean aid and some still hammer.

Naturally, the clean aid folks were brow beating the hammer folks, but there were enough folks talking about hammering that it seemed almost normal.

Is it true that people still hammer Zodiac on a regular basis? I'm not asking if they should, but if they actually do. And if so, how far out of order is that considering it is done often?


ptlong


Jan 30, 2009, 2:41 PM
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Re: [Gmburns2000] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174) [In reply to]
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Gmburns, people do nail some on Zodiac. Dingus left out some of the subtle aspects. Gray areas include routes that have gone clean but require greater skill, greater risk, and/or key pieces of fixed protection to do so. A standard example is the Shield. It's been climbed hammerless, but pretty much everybody nails some.

Nobody is going to get crucified if they ping in an occasional sawed angle on Zodiac. They would if they nailed on the Nose where it's dead easy to use cams and nuts. The idea is to make a real effort to avoid nailing. Spending money on tools like hybrid aliens and offsets makes it easier.


Gmburns2000


Jan 30, 2009, 7:13 PM
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Re: [ptlong] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174) [In reply to]
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Thanks. I guess that is what I was trying to get at - it isn't all black and white. I'm no expert on the subject by far, but it seemed that while there are standards, the standards have not been not applied universally. I'm getting the sense that maybe standards in general (across all climbing styles) apply less to the mid-range climbers and more the the truly talented and / or skilled. Of course, even that isn't black and white, but there does seem to be a "he / she should've known better" attitude that is applied to some folks.


justsendingits


Mar 2, 2009, 4:50 PM
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Re: [Gmburns2000] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174) [In reply to]
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when I was in NAM we did FA's in the purest of style, we started naked from the south china sea, and hiked to Cambodia gathering only the most organic natural tools for drilling. A jaw bone from the endangered albino mudskipper for the drill, water smoothed rocks for the hammer, and hooves from water buffalo to make glue to hold the bolts in. This was the Cambodian climbing ethic that we adhered to and still do. Now the new generation is using russian adjustable friction hitches for double dyno's, and they twitter on the A-4+R pitches, which only dumb down the route. some have even used cam shackles and snap links on the 4th pitch. Next thing you know they will be melting lead heads into the 5.8 crack with a propane Jewelers torch.
You new guys need to show some respect and cowboy up!


Gmburns2000


Mar 3, 2009, 6:24 AM
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Re: [justsendingits] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174) [In reply to]
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justsendingits wrote:
when I was in NAM we did FA's in the purest of style, we started naked from the south china sea, and hiked to Cambodia gathering only the most organic natural tools for drilling. A jaw bone from the endangered albino mudskipper for the drill, water smoothed rocks for the hammer, and hooves from water buffalo to make glue to hold the bolts in. This was the Cambodian climbing ethic that we adhered to and still do. Now the new generation is using russian adjustable friction hitches for double dyno's, and they twitter on the A-4+R pitches, which only dumb down the route. some have even used cam shackles and snap links on the 4th pitch. Next thing you know they will be melting lead heads into the 5.8 crack with a propane Jewelers torch.
You new guys need to show some respect and cowboy up!

you forgot the part about walking ten miles home in four feet of snow. I know you said vietnam, but still, that obstacle is a necessity if you want to make your complaint valid. Tongue


Lazlo


Mar 3, 2009, 7:53 AM
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I fixed a pin in a free route once.


justsendingits


Mar 3, 2009, 9:53 AM
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Re: [Lazlo] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174) [In reply to]
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No but seriously, I have put in plenty of bolts in Yosemite and other areas. I have not read the article so I can't comment on that one. I will say this though, Erik Kohl does not put up public service routes, keeping the character of the route is important to a lot of us who climb in the ditch. With that said some of the routes in the valley were put up by climbers like charlie porter and others who had little money at the time, dowels,crappy rivets and what not were used because they were cheap, with no thought of putting up a route for the public. My guess is that Porter thought very few would ever climb routes like t-trip 30+ years later.
He used the crappy rivets just to move up, many were poorly placed, which happens sometimes when you solo and you get super worked.
When I replace an unsafe rivet I prefer to replace with 3/8 If I am going to go through the effort of replacing a bolt, it might as well be a real good one that is going to last, but lately I have been using 1/4 rivets to replace lead rivets just because I can hand drill them sooo much faster. But I don't trip to much when other climbers give me a hard time about replacing 1/4 with 3/8 While I think it is super important to keep the character of the route, replacing a 1/4 with a 3/8 doesn't change the character, at least to me it don't. I mean I know analogy's are BS but a lot of the climbers who put up these FA's are llike a father who creates a child and never comes back to take care of that child. And while I think it important to contact the FA before re -bolting, I don't HAVE to get approval from them to swap out an 1/4 for an 3/8
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but a lot of you have never even done a big wall, not that I don't think you have a great imagination, but it's hard for you to fully understand what it takes and more important what you go through emotionally when you climb a big wall, or better yet solo something like half dome, and I don't mean the reg. route.
But the sure don't stop a lot of you from railing on someone about their style of big wqll climbing or hating on aid in general.
I have more respect for the climbers who go out and chop my bolts than you monday morning quarterbacks here on RC. at least they are out doing what they believe in and not spraying online. Get out there and climb, either place a bolt or chop one, otherwise you are not even a blip on the radar screen as far as impact on Yosemite or wherever you climb.


(This post was edited by justsendingits on Mar 3, 2009, 9:58 AM)

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