You seems to be saying that altering the rock is o.k. if its done for safety but that's it.

"The problem here is that cleaning loose blocks alters the rock and how a climb is done just as much as gluing, comfortizing, cleaning out a crack, sculpting a hold etc."

Fuzzbait in both your posts I think you may be making a distinction without a difference.

While I completely agree with you that rock is being altered either way I believe you have erred by NOT making a distinction between cleaning of a route and the blatant manufacturing of it. This is where the actual problem lies.

You CANNOT compare cleaning for safety to taking a hammer, drill or any other tool with the intent of altering the rock so that it is more comfortable or enables climbers of lower grades to be able to complete it.

I made the distinction in my last posts because I DO feel there is a difference!

Joe

rocks are, in fact, inanimate objects, without emotions or feelings, that cannot be "hurt" in the same sense as a person or a puppy. You should all get together and start some sort of crusade against granite counter-tops, or road cuts, or something along those lines, if you are so concerned with this hurting-the-rock issue.

So when you glue/reinforce features instead of cleaning them off, doesn't that make the route easier, not harder? And isn't gluing/reinforcing blatant manufacturing, too?

And you seem to be implying that blank choss should be left alone so that better climbers can try harder sequences later. But harder sequences means smaller holds, and on bad quality rock, the smaller holds simply break off, leaving nothing. Go try it for yourself - find some choss, grab some little edges, and start yanking. It's sika and drilled pockets, or keep driving.

The simple reality is that there is nothing wrong with taking a previously unclimbed, otherwise worthless pile of rock, where nobody else ever goes or has reason to, and turning it into an outdoor gym, and this is the situation where the vast majority of route manufacturing takes place, and that there are plenty of crags to go to where nothing of the sort occurs, and if you don't like manufactured routes, don't go where they are.

Most developers of choss are grizzled veterans, not beginning/intermediate level climbers like most of the people on this thread (and site). Decades of climbing experience (hopefully) teaches [them].

Look my feeling is we need to have a strong stance Against chipping, drilling, sculpting, gluing, and/or comfortizing. However, realizing that there are situations that it may be necessary. For every rule there are always exceptions.

As you said most people on here are beginners who are here looking for advice. We need to be firm in our positions that this kind of practice is not the norm.

In my local climb zone we use to have a 5.14+ route, a spanish dumb ass came and chip holds to it . . .

THE ANSWER IS ABSOLUTELY NO TO ALL 3 - I CANT BELIEVE THIS IS EVEN A QUESTION ANYMORE. THIS IS THE LAMEST THREAD IVE EVER READ. WHOEVER STARTED THIS THREAD AND ANYONE WHO ANSWERED YES TO ANY OF THESE IS PATHETIC AND WEAK MINDED. THERE IS NEVER A NEED TO CHIP OR DRILL - IT IS FAKE AND WITHOUT A TRAINED EYE YOU NEVER CAN TELL IF EVEN A BLANK WALL MIGHT HAVE A ROUTE THAT WEAVES AROUND FEATURES THAT YOU CANT SEE OR WOULDNT CONSIDER HOLDS UNLESS YOU HAVE PUT UP PLENTY OF NATURAL FIRST ASCENTS AND CLIMB/BOULDER ON REAL ROCK ALOT. BUILD A CLIMBING WALL, GO BOULDERING, LEARN. ONE MOVE WONDERS ARE NOT A BAD THING. I PUT UP MY HARDEST FIRST ASCENT EVER (Judge Dredd 5.13B) FOR TWO REASONS - BECAUSE 1- IT LOOKED RAD AND 2- TO SHOW THAT YOU DONT NEED TO CHIP/DRILLL. THE ORIGINAL ROUTE ON THE WALL WAS CALLED "Jury Duty" 5.13c AND IT HAD A DRILLED POCKET WHICH FILLED IN A BLANK SPOT ON THE WALL. I RAPPELLED DOWN AND WITH A FEW WHACKS OF MY HAMMER TO REMOVE A COUPLE LOOSE PLATES I HAD SOME HOLDS TO GRAB AND A ROUTE EVEN EASIER THAN THE ORIGINAL. IT ONLY TOOK ME A FEW MINUTES MORE THAN THE FAKE HOLE DRILLER WHO MUST HAVE BEEN IN A HURRY. ANOTHER FAKE LOCAL ROUTE IS THE "Beach Arete" 5.13c AT MICKEYS BEACH WHICH A FEW YEARS AFTER IT WAS CHIPPED WENT NATURAL BY MY BUDDY KEVIN JORGESON WHO RATED IT A 5.13D/5.14A WITHOUT THE FAKE POCKET - NOT MUCH HARDER THAN THE ORIGINAL FAKE ROUTE AND NOT HARD AT ALL BY TODAYS STANDARDS. IF THE GUY WHO DRILLED IT HAD DECIDED TO DRILL A FEW MORE HOLES HE MIGHT HAVE RUINED THE NATURAL HOLDS KEVIN FOUND AND RUINED A GREAT NATURAL LINE. CHIPPING AND DRILLING RUINS CLIMBS FOR FUTURE GENERATIONS, CAUSES ACCESS ISSUES AND IS UGLY AND FAKE. IT IS SELFISH AND ME ME ME NOW NOW NOW - IT IS EVERYTHING THAT IS BAD ABOUT AMERICAN CULTURE. IT IS DISGRACEFUL AND DISPICABLE. I DONT GET WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH WITH THIS STUPID POLL - YOURE ASKING A BUNCH OF NIEVE INTERNET NEWBIES LIKE YOURSELF WHAT THEY THINK? IT MAKES NO SENSE - WHAT IF EVERYONE ON RC.COM SAYS YES LETS CHIP - WILL THAT MAKE IT O.K.? - IF YOU LOOK AT WHAT EXPERIENCED CLIMBERS SAY - YOU WILL SEE THAT THEY SAY IT IS NOT O.K. TO CHIP - EVER. IF I EVER SEE OR EVEN HEAR ABOUT ANYONE CHIPPING OR DRILLING ON MY LOCAL ROCKS I WILL TREAT THEM LIKE A GRAFFITI VANDAL OR WORSE AND - WELL JUST LOOK OUT. I HOPE THAT YOU WILL ALL DO THE SAME. GET A FRKN CLUE. CLIMBING IS NOT ABOUT PUTTING UP ROUTES - IT IS ABOUT CLIMBING ROCKS AND ACCEPTING THE CHALLENGES THAT MOTHER NATURE GAVE US - I THINK THAT YOU MIGHT BE BETTER AT SPORTS WITH LITTLE BOUNCY BALLS BECAUSE YOU OBVIOULSY HAVE NO BALLS OF YOUR OWN.

1- No
2- No
3- No

In my personal opinion chipping isn't accepted on any situation. Climbing is about improving your skills and strength, If you cannot send the route then look for something easier.

In my local climb zone we use to have a 5.14+ route, a spanish dumb ass came and chip holds to it downgrading it to 5.13a

Chipping is not climbing!

Peace

Thread resurrection of the week,

Nonono.

DMT

Shouldn't there be a statute of limitation on thread resurrection? Soon we'll see the resurfacing of issues like: Should climbs be graded above 5.10...
Just sayin'
Merry Christmas!

no
no
no

I RAPPELLED DOWN AND WITH A FEW WHACKS OF MY HAMMER TO REMOVE A COUPLE LOOSE PLATES I HAD SOME HOLDS TO GRAB AND A ROUTE EVEN EASIER THAN THE ORIGINAL.

% of respondents answering "no no no": 95%
% of above who should have responded: "I'm an ignorant 'noob noob noob'": 100%
% of above who ignored the realistic responses posted by actual route developers: 100%
% of above regularly climb on manufactured holds and are utterly oblivious to it: 100%

Jay

% of respondents answering "no no no": 95%
% of above who should have responded: "I'm an ignorant 'noob noob noob'": 100%
% of above who ignored the realistic responses posted by actual route developers: 100%
% of above regularly climb on manufactured holds and are utterly oblivious to it: 100%

Jay

so you support chipping? i sure can't climb the nose, but hell i'll just turn it into a jug haul? where do you place the line between developing and manufacturing? and who gives you or anyone else the right to do so?