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lena_chita
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Mar 13, 2009, 2:34 PM
Post #426 of 438
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xgretax wrote: However, I've come to a tipping point in my nursing journey. My daughter will be 21 months old this month. My original goal was to nurse her until she was at least two and let her self-wean thereafter. (Disclaimer: This was my own, private goal, and will NOT debate the pros and cons of extended breast-feeding here.) It has become blatantly obvious that my body can no longer healthily meet the demands of a suckling toddler (see the thyroid hell thread). So, I'm weaning her this weekend. This is the hardest decision I've ever made (I'm balling right now). But I think it will be better for both of us in the long run.
Nice to "meet" another extended nurser here.  I nursed my son until he was 18 months, and my daughter weaned around 26 months.
Nursing does take a toll after a while. I don't know if there is any scientific basis behind it, but an n=1 experience of another friend of mine who has thyroid issues was along the same lines as you mention. She was really feeling the effects of it after about 18 months, and decided to wean, too. It is a hard decision to make, especially if you were really set on going for a longer time and convinced of the benefits it gived to your child. But your health is important for your child's well-bieng, too, so I am sure you are making the right choice. I hope the weaning goes as smoothly as possible for the two of you.
xgretax wrote: Anyhow, I know that one may conclude from my posts alone that motherhood and X are hard. But I feel like my experience is the exception. Most people I know are like Aimee and are back in shape like that and have not had the postpartum difficulties I have. So, for those who want to go for it, go for it. It is what you make of it.
I wouldn't call it an exception, actually.
I don't know how I got stuck in defending the original article, b/c I don't think that motherhood and climbing are incompatible. Heck no, I am obviously able to do it. But I DO think that combining the two is hard.
Aimeerose sounds like she has an easy time of it. And I am sincerely glad for her.
But the two things that jump out at me when I read her post are these: aimeerose wrote: Fortunately our parents enjoy traveling and babysitting while we climb. We also have a great dedicated sitter at home that can go climbing with us or stay home with the baby.
Take that away-- and it becomes MUCH harder.
She also has a good location going for her-- same as Staci.
I also don't know what Aimee does for living -- and that makes a difference in terms of how easy it is to take time off to do things, b/c if you are traveling during the weekend, and working during the week, there are other things that don't get done.
And Staci never mentioned her job either -- but I would guess that she is not a doctor, engineer or a scientist, for example.
And you HAVE to take health issues into account. A child born with any health issues. A mother having any complications during childbirth, like Seb did-- and the bar gets raised much higher.
Again, I am not saying that it isn't possible to still be a climber even if you DON'T have any of the "positives" going for you.
But it DOES make a difference in how EASY you think it is. For some women it is easly, b/c of their particular circumstances. For some women, it is hard but doable. For some women it is SO hard, that the effort becomes not worth it. I really think that this was the point Susan was trying to convey, but it didn't come across right.
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aimeerose
Mar 13, 2009, 3:28 PM
Post #427 of 438
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I actually had a hell of a time nursing. Cracked, bleeding nipples, low milk production, etc, but I stayed with it because I knew how good it was for the baby. I finally stopped at 7 months when I was only making a 1/4 of what she was eating, but I realize now that even that much was beneficial. She became constipated right after I stopped and we continue to struggle with it at almost 2 years!
I am a physical therapist. I work at a hospital and so I can work as many days on and take as many days off as I want. I purposely chose this setting so I could have a flexible schedule. I'd rather work outpatient, but then you have to work 5 days a week and have to fight to get time off.
We also knew we would need a dedicated sitter, so even before the baby was born my husband was searching for a sitter.
I think most grandparents enjoy helping out, you just have to either live close to them or they have to be able to travel.
And, yes, we live in a great place for climbing, but we made that decision years before we had the baby.
The things we are able to control, we have in order to optimize our climbing time. The things we couldn't- health of the baby, etc, we got lucky.
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clee03m
Mar 13, 2009, 8:27 PM
Post #428 of 438
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Registered: Oct 29, 2004
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No, I don't know you aimeerose, but I have read your posts and even remember seeing a picture of your baby sending a crazy boulder problem :) I liked your posts when you were pregnant because it was really inspiring, and I also remember being really angry at people here on rc.com calling you a pig for leading while pregnant. Great to hear you are climbing harder than ever.
xgretax, I am an anesthesiologist, and many days I don't have time to eat let alone have time to pump. Yeah, I may get a few minutes here and there, but not really a set time I could dedicate to pumping. I am thinking that may be if I continued to get up in the middle of the night to pump, I won't stop producing milk? If women can sleep at night and still produce milk, could I pump right before work and right after and through the night? I don't know since I work 10+ hour days. And there are times I am on call where I would not be able to pump for longer periods of time. One of my friends pumped every 2 hours for the 6 weeks she was off and had enough milk in stock for 3 months extra, and I plan to do that. Of course I am not even pregnant, so I have not talked to an OB about this.
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rmsusa
Mar 13, 2009, 11:35 PM
Post #429 of 438
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Registered: May 24, 2004
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In reply to: Rmsusa, out of curiosity I wouldn't mind having an explanation for exactly how/why quantum mechanics disproves determinism?...
Well, I never mentioned quantum mechanics, but the work on uncertainty was, indeed, Heisenbergs. Basically the act of observation disturbs the observed so true measurements are never possible (admittedly at the quantum level). He described it as measurements of two very fundamental properties.
Determinism fell out of favor after his work, though Einstein still said that "God doesn't throw dice", most thought him wrong (regardless of your belief in God). There are plenty of examples of hugely productive scientists holding beliefs that later turned out to be very strange. Newton spent the last years of his life searching for the philosophers stone.
As mathematics advanced, we started studying things like boundary condition and instability. We found that very small perturbations can cause large changes in state. A guy named Hadamard did a lot of work there. The tiniest things can have huge effects in the evolution of even a purely mathematical system. What are their consequences in the real world.
In some sense, to say the world is deterministic is a statement that randomness simply doesn't exist. A lot of work has been done to show that certain things just are. Random things can't be predicted, they can just be guessed at statistically. As long as some random thing exists, the world isn't deterministic.
How do you "prove" that something is random? Generally the answer to that is statistical and based on observation. There are also some theoretical arguments.
In the end, belief in determinism is merely belief, sort of like religion. Current science points in the other direction. Determinism holds the hope of being able to predict the future. If someone wants to believe it, OK. Just don't hold it out as truth.
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Toast_in_the_Machine
Mar 14, 2009, 2:58 AM
Post #430 of 438
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As you look at your precious little one and wonder, how can I do this to my child, to remove the best food they have ever had, or can ever have. Remember that within less than 3 years they will look at you, and communicate that they think you are the stupidest person on the planet. This means that less than 3 years after weaning, they will be smarter than you. In their minds.
It is the caring that counts, not the amount of breast milk. Breast milk good, caring parents better.
My other personal favorite “enjoy them while they are young”.
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puerto
Mar 14, 2009, 4:01 AM
Post #431 of 438
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rmsusa wrote: In reply to: Rmsusa, out of curiosity I wouldn't mind having an explanation for exactly how/why quantum mechanics disproves determinism?... Well, I never mentioned quantum mechanics, but the work on uncertainty was, indeed, Heisenbergs. Basically the act of observation disturbs the observed so true measurements are never possible (admittedly at the quantum level). He described it as measurements of two very fundamental properties. Determinism fell out of favor after his work, though Einstein still said that "God doesn't throw dice", most thought him wrong (regardless of your belief in God). There are plenty of examples of hugely productive scientists holding beliefs that later turned out to be very strange. Newton spent the last years of his life searching for the philosophers stone. As mathematics advanced, we started studying things like boundary condition and instability. We found that very small perturbations can cause large changes in state. A guy named Hadamard did a lot of work there. The tiniest things can have huge effects in the evolution of even a purely mathematical system. What are their consequences in the real world. In some sense, to say the world is deterministic is a statement that randomness simply doesn't exist. A lot of work has been done to show that certain things just are. Random things can't be predicted, they can just be guessed at statistically. As long as some random thing exists, the world isn't deterministic. How do you "prove" that something is random? Generally the answer to that is statistical and based on observation. There are also some theoretical arguments. In the end, belief in determinism is merely belief, sort of like religion. Current science points in the other direction. Determinism holds the hope of being able to predict the future. If someone wants to believe it, OK. Just don't hold it out as truth.
Never heard of Hazamard, though the fact that he was personally involved in the Dreyfus affair is quite interesting.
I must submit, it seems that you are also confusing human ability to predict things with whether they are determined or not. We could never be able to predict the future, and yet it could still be determined right?
For example, the very variations introduced into the system via us trying to measure them could affect the variables in the system to a degree where it would become impossible to predict the outcome.
For example, if we flipped a coin, could we really capture all the mechanical variables necessary to predict the outcome of that coin toss without affecting the outcome? If the answer is negative, does that really mean the trajectory of the coin is not determined?
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rmsusa
Mar 14, 2009, 3:16 PM
Post #432 of 438
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Nobody ever hears of Hadamard unless they do number theory or some advanced study of systems of PDE's.
In reply to: I must submit, it seems that you are also confusing human ability to predict things with whether they are determined or not. We could never be able to predict the future, and yet it could still be determined right?
I'm afraid that I'm going to have to defer to the extensive literature from both science and philosophy on the subject. This is a very deep question and I simply don't have the time to deal with it. I just looked around a bit and the wikipedia article on "determinism" has some good references on most aspects of the subject. I have to warn you that this has been discussed for centuries by some very deep thinkers.
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xgretax
Mar 18, 2009, 3:06 PM
Post #433 of 438
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Registered: Jan 23, 2001
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I echo your friend's advice. I also pumped like hell the first 6 weeks and then some. I had a couple of breast infections that also required me to pump because it was too painful to allow the little one to latch on. I also had lots of nipple problems like aimeerose. Anyhow, I managed get at least four months of milk in the freezer and was continually able to replenish the supply via less aggressive pumping. However, at about 8 months, pumping was very difficult for me. I was still producing milk, the pump was in fine shape, I just couldn't get more than an ounce out. I guess my boobs were sick of being milked so much. That was ok because the wee one was getting more interested in solids.
I have some links that give suggestions for busy working mothers who are fully dedicated to exclusive breast-feeding as well as some for mothers who are dedicated but have to supplement in some way. Whether it be formula or milk from a milk bank. I'll pm you those later on. gotta go...bath time for munckin.
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cliffmama
Mar 20, 2009, 2:34 AM
Post #434 of 438
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I was fortunate to have a huge amount of milk, despite my fairly flat chest. I discovered once I had "let down", I could express 2 ounces without even pumping - it would just stream out of me from the pressure. Moo. The books said to feed the baby 15 minutes on each side... well, if I let her latch on to the first side for anytime more than 10 minutes, she would projectile vomit milk across the room. I found out my milk flowed so fast that she would literally fill up and explode. I ended up getting a small hand held battery operated pump to get the milk out of the unused side and had quite a huge surplus in the freezer.
But back to climbing. So the first time I went climbing after giving birth, my husband had the baby in the backpack and I did some short trad climbs with a male friend. Well, my husband was happily hiking around with the baby and didn't return for quite a while and the milk supply felt like it was going to explode out of my chest. Finally, I could wait no longer, on a ledge at the top of the climb, I made my friend turn the other way and just opened up the bra and let them explode. I left quite a puddle of milk on that ledge, and I can imagine the confused look on the faces of whomever climbed up there next.
My daughter weaned herself at about 13 months. She skipped nursing during the day - just mornings and bedtime, then only bedtime. I still recall the last time. I lifted my shirt for her, she looked up into my eyes, and with her little hand, pulled my shirt back down.
Jannette
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xgretax
Mar 24, 2009, 5:18 PM
Post #435 of 438
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lena_chita wrote: Nice to "meet" another extended nurser here. I nursed my son until he was 18 months, and my daughter weaned around 26 months. Nursing does take a toll after a while. I don't know if there is any scientific basis behind it, but an n=1 experience of another friend of mine who has thyroid issues was along the same lines as you mention. She was really feeling the effects of it after about 18 months, and decided to wean, too. It is a hard decision to make, especially if you were really set on going for a longer time and convinced of the benefits it gived to your child. But your health is important for your child's well-bieng, too, so I am sure you are making the right choice. I hope the weaning goes as smoothly as possible for the two of you.
Thanks, lena_chita. The literature I've looked at on thyroid and adrenal disease in pregnancy and breast-feeding are severely lacking. All the people that I know that have thyroid/adrenal issues don't have kids to nurse or are male. But I have my own ideas...and I definitely have significantly more energy (and guilt) now that I no longer breast-feed.
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karmiclimber
Mar 24, 2009, 5:41 PM
Post #436 of 438
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Registered: Mar 11, 2004
Posts: 1058
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I am a single mom of one toddler. I climb. I don't climb like I would were I not a mom. But I find a way. And I'll be damned if I ever hang up my harness. I really think if you have the true desire to climb, you will find a way. I hope she grows up to my climbing partner.
Kids are not a barrier to what you want in life. Yes, she is a responsibility that comes before climbing. But she makes my life better in so many ways, that its impossible to see her as something holding me back from my climbing.
I don't just climb. I cycle (I take her with me for that), I climb mountains (she stays at her grandparents for the weekend), I snowshoe...sometimes she comes with me, I hike with her, I am starting to camp with her and teach her to slackline. I wouldn't take her climbing with me til she is older though. I am building a bouldering wall in my garage, so I can keep myself in climbing shape, if I can't make it to the gym. Like I said- where there is a will, there is a way. And yes you do have to think creatively when it comes to working out kids and climbing...but if thats the only thing holding you back from having your cake and eating it too, then maybe you didn't want it to begin with. For me, I am proud to juggle both...makes me feel like a strong lady :-)
(This post was edited by karmiclimber on Mar 24, 2009, 5:41 PM)
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k.l.k
Mar 26, 2009, 5:05 PM
Post #437 of 438
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I don't want to hijack the thread's new life as a forum for amateur speculative philosophizing about the import of quantum mechanics, but the original topic is clearly of interest to w aide array of folks.
Curiously, the author (or editors) don't mention the earlier pieces. There's not much that's new here, a lot of the same ambivalence working itself out in different ways:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/...les/page.php?id=1739
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xgretax
Mar 27, 2009, 5:09 AM
Post #438 of 438
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Registered: Jan 23, 2001
Posts: 248
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great article! thanks!
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