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beardoffate


Feb 2, 2009, 8:49 AM
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Double up on everything except the belay loop..
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First post on the forum--so my apologies if this has been discussed in the past...but, I couldn't find my answer after a handful of searches. So, here goes...

I'm relatively new to climbing and was wondering why harnesses only have one belay loop. It seems that everything in climbing is 'doubled up' in the name of safety. You've got your two anchors for top-roping with two biners with opposing gates, you double-back the straps on a harness, the rope goes thru two loops when climbing (on most harnesses) and so on.

Yet, for some reason, there is only one belay loop? Seems like a disconnect in the logic that I notice everywhere else. Now, I understand that you're supposed to get a new harness every now and again to ensure its strength. That alone should rule out any structural damage due to wear and tear. However, I can't help thinking to myself that the belay loop should have a safe-guard. Afterall, if that thing fails you're only holding the climber up with your arms and the friction in the biners. Doesn't seem too safe to me...even if I am severely underestimating the strength a belay loop possesses. Why isn't it commonplace to double up this potential weak link??

Thanks much for your thoughts -b


Couloirman


Feb 2, 2009, 9:11 AM
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Re: [beardoffate] Double up on everything except the belay loop.. [In reply to]
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http://www.bdel.com/...p_archive.php#102706


^^^^^
because they are strong as hell, even when you cut through half of it...

EDIT: and come to think of it, mine kinda does look doubled up. Its 2 thinner pieces of material shown together 2 pieces thick so in essence, that kinda is doubled up.


(This post was edited by Couloirman on Feb 2, 2009, 9:12 AM)


pendereki


Feb 2, 2009, 9:12 AM
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Re: [beardoffate] Double up on everything except the belay loop.. [In reply to]
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     The most satisfying answer to me was that the belay loop is doubled, or even tripled. If you look at it, the belay loop is actually two or three loops stitched together for your convenience. It is one of the strongest links in the system, but inspect it often.

Chad


reg


Feb 2, 2009, 9:12 AM
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Re: [beardoffate] Double up on everything except the belay loop.. [In reply to]
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try this


coastal_climber


Feb 2, 2009, 9:23 AM
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Re: [reg] Double up on everything except the belay loop.. [In reply to]
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If your that worried, double it up with a piece of webbing.


johnwesely


Feb 2, 2009, 9:26 AM
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Re: [beardoffate] Double up on everything except the belay loop.. [In reply to]
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It is so much stronger than the rest of the harness that it would be the last thing to fail.


fresh


Feb 2, 2009, 9:27 AM
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Re: [beardoffate] Double up on everything except the belay loop.. [In reply to]
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beardoffate wrote:
First post on the forum--so my apologies if this has been discussed in the past...but, I couldn't find my answer after a handful of searches. So, here goes...

I'm relatively new to climbing and was wondering why harnesses only have one belay loop. It seems that everything in climbing is 'doubled up' in the name of safety. You've got your two anchors for top-roping with two biners with opposing gates, you double-back the straps on a harness, the rope goes thru two loops when climbing (on most harnesses) and so on.

Yet, for some reason, there is only one belay loop? Seems like a disconnect in the logic that I notice everywhere else. Now, I understand that you're supposed to get a new harness every now and again to ensure its strength. That alone should rule out any structural damage due to wear and tear. However, I can't help thinking to myself that the belay loop should have a safe-guard. Afterall, if that thing fails you're only holding the climber up with your arms and the friction in the biners. Doesn't seem too safe to me...even if I am severely underestimating the strength a belay loop possesses. Why isn't it commonplace to double up this potential weak link??

Thanks much for your thoughts -b
why don't you climb with two ropes, and double up your safety that way?

the reason is probably close to the same reason you only have one belay loop. one is good enough. if you want to think about it mathtematically, the difference between one in a million and one in a trillion is probably not enough to double and triple absolutely everything.

personally, I don't make my climbing systems redundant because redundancy is always the best practice, I make my climbing systems redundant when there is a reasonable chance of failure of one of the parts.

use your brain. make your own decisions.


Johnny_Fang


Feb 2, 2009, 10:08 AM
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Re: [fresh] Double up on everything except the belay loop.. [In reply to]
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fresh wrote:
beardoffate wrote:
First post on the forum--so my apologies if this has been discussed in the past...but, I couldn't find my answer after a handful of searches. So, here goes...

I'm relatively new to climbing and was wondering why harnesses only have one belay loop. It seems that everything in climbing is 'doubled up' in the name of safety. You've got your two anchors for top-roping with two biners with opposing gates, you double-back the straps on a harness, the rope goes thru two loops when climbing (on most harnesses) and so on.

Yet, for some reason, there is only one belay loop? Seems like a disconnect in the logic that I notice everywhere else. Now, I understand that you're supposed to get a new harness every now and again to ensure its strength. That alone should rule out any structural damage due to wear and tear. However, I can't help thinking to myself that the belay loop should have a safe-guard. Afterall, if that thing fails you're only holding the climber up with your arms and the friction in the biners. Doesn't seem too safe to me...even if I am severely underestimating the strength a belay loop possesses. Why isn't it commonplace to double up this potential weak link??

Thanks much for your thoughts -b
why don't you climb with two ropes, and double up your safety that way?

the reason is probably close to the same reason you only have one belay loop. one is good enough. if you want to think about it mathtematically, the difference between one in a million and one in a trillion is probably not enough to double and triple absolutely everything.

personally, I don't make my climbing systems redundant because redundancy is always the best practice, I make my climbing systems redundant when there is a reasonable chance of failure of one of the parts.

use your brain. make your own decisions.

considering that human error is by far the primary cause of accidents, you're best off climbing with two belayers. redundancy, you know.


coolcat83


Feb 2, 2009, 10:16 AM
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Re: [Couloirman] Double up on everything except the belay loop.. [In reply to]
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Couloirman wrote:
http://www.bdel.com/...p_archive.php#102706


^^^^^
because they are strong as hell, even when you cut through half of it...

EDIT: and come to think of it, mine kinda does look doubled up. Its 2 thinner pieces of material shown together 2 pieces thick so in essence, that kinda is doubled up.
Korekt


acorneau


Feb 2, 2009, 10:28 AM
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Re: [beardoffate] Double up on everything except the belay loop.. [In reply to]
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Howdy Beard,

Welcome to the forum. I'll hit some of your points:

beardoffate wrote:
You've got your two anchors for top-roping

Sometimes you may have one anchor (big friggin' tree or boulder) sometimes more (3 pieces of pro for trad anchors).

In reply to:
with two biners with opposing gates,

Two biners are more for a wider radius for the rope than needed strength. Opposing gates is if they're non-lockers (doesn't matter for lockers).

In reply to:
you double-back the straps on a harness,

That's how they are designed to lock tight, so it's not "doubling up" on anything.

In reply to:
the rope goes thru two loops when climbing (on most harnesses)

Your belay loop goes through both waist belt and leg loops as well, that's how they are designed.

As others have said, the belay loop is stronger than it needs to be. (My Wild Country harnesses belay loop is rated for 25kN!)Shocked


(This post was edited by acorneau on Feb 2, 2009, 10:29 AM)


Maddhatter


Feb 2, 2009, 10:33 AM
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Re: [coastal_climber] Double up on everything except the belay loop.. [In reply to]
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coastal_climber wrote:
If your that worried, double it up with a piece of webbing.


Or a locker


jeepnphreak


Feb 2, 2009, 10:40 AM
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Re: [beardoffate] Double up on everything except the belay loop.. [In reply to]
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here this you may like

http://www.bdel.com/gear/big_gun.php


dingus


Feb 2, 2009, 10:46 AM
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Re: [beardoffate] Double up on everything except the belay loop.. [In reply to]
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beardoffate wrote:
First post on the forum--so my apologies if this has been discussed in the past...but, I couldn't find my answer after a handful of searches. So, here goes...

I'm relatively new to climbing and was wondering why harnesses only have one belay loop. It seems that everything in climbing is 'doubled up' in the name of safety. You've got your two anchors for top-roping with two biners with opposing gates, you double-back the straps on a harness, the rope goes thru two loops when climbing (on most harnesses) and so on.

Yet, for some reason, there is only one belay loop? Seems like a disconnect in the logic that I notice everywhere else. Now, I understand that you're supposed to get a new harness every now and again to ensure its strength. That alone should rule out any structural damage due to wear and tear. However, I can't help thinking to myself that the belay loop should have a safe-guard. Afterall, if that thing fails you're only holding the climber up with your arms and the friction in the biners. Doesn't seem too safe to me...even if I am severely underestimating the strength a belay loop possesses. Why isn't it commonplace to double up this potential weak link??

Thanks much for your thoughts -b

Its easy enough to back up that belay loop if you wish. Easy enough to back up that ONE harness too.

DMT


(This post was edited by dingus on Feb 2, 2009, 10:51 AM)


dingus


Feb 2, 2009, 10:47 AM
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Re: [fresh] Double up on everything except the belay loop.. [In reply to]
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fresh wrote:
why don't you climb with two ropes, and double up your safety that way?

A common strategy.

DMT


dingus


Feb 2, 2009, 10:50 AM
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fresh wrote:
why don't you climb with two ropes, and double up your safety that way?

the reason is probably close to the same reason you only have one belay loop. one is good enough.

Uh.... no.

In reply to:
if you want to think about it mathtematically, the difference between one in a million and one in a trillion is probably not enough to double and triple absolutely everything.

A million doubled is TWO MILLION, not a trillion. A million tripled is THREE... million, not a trillion. So you're right, that's no reason.


In reply to:
use your brain. make your own decisions.

Um...... uh.......

never mind.

DMT


randyb


Feb 2, 2009, 11:00 AM
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For more security just run your locking beaner that you are belaying with through your harness and skip the belay loop all together. I have always done it this way and feel it NEVER hurts to be too safe. Just follow the same path as your safety attachment.


coastal_climber


Feb 2, 2009, 11:16 AM
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Re: [Maddhatter] Double up on everything except the belay loop.. [In reply to]
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Maddhatter wrote:
coastal_climber wrote:
If your that worried, double it up with a piece of webbing.


Or a locker

Through the tie in points? Wouldn't that be cross-loading?

Tongue


binrat


Feb 2, 2009, 11:17 AM
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randyb wrote:
For more security just run your locking beaner that you are belaying with through your harness and skip the belay loop all together. I have always done it this way and feel it NEVER hurts to be too safe. Just follow the same path as your safety attachment.
Some may argue that it introduces cross loading in the biner, I'm good with personal preference. I have seen a 9+ year old belay loop pulled to failure, right around 24 kN.

binrat


dingus


Feb 2, 2009, 11:19 AM
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binrat wrote:
randyb wrote:
For more security just run your locking beaner that you are belaying with through your harness and skip the belay loop all together. I have always done it this way and feel it NEVER hurts to be too safe. Just follow the same path as your safety attachment.
Some may argue that it introduces cross loading in the biner, I'm good with personal preference. I have seen a 9+ year old belay loop pulled to failure, right around 24 kN.

binrat

And another one famously parted under body weight.

DMT


fresh


Feb 2, 2009, 11:23 AM
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Re: [dingus] Double up on everything except the belay loop.. [In reply to]
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dingus wrote:
fresh wrote:
why don't you climb with two ropes, and double up your safety that way?

the reason is probably close to the same reason you only have one belay loop. one is good enough.

Uh.... no.

In reply to:
if you want to think about it mathtematically, the difference between one in a million and one in a trillion is probably not enough to double and triple absolutely everything.

A million doubled is TWO MILLION, not a trillion. A million tripled is THREE... million, not a trillion. So you're right, that's no reason.


In reply to:
use your brain. make your own decisions.

Um...... uh.......

never mind.

DMT

two one in a million chances is equal to a one in a trillion chance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Math

and of course double ropes is a common strategy. but it doesn't make it safer than using one rope in all situations. unless you're saying you never use a single rope? meh. again, make your own decisions.


(This post was edited by fresh on Feb 2, 2009, 11:25 AM)


Partner rgold


Feb 2, 2009, 11:32 AM
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Re: [beardoffate] Double up on everything except the belay loop.. [In reply to]
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Redundancy is a principle to be used thoughtfully where most appropriate, not a commandment to be followed slavishly.

I've seen people with all kinds of doubled-up mumbo jumbo going on get sketchy over a single, not even especially good, piece between them and a bad ledge fall, so you do need a sense of proportion about what it is you are going to double up. It appears to be fairly easy to devote enormous amounts of attention to cosmically unlikely things while ignoring fairly substantial risks.

Belay loops may be the strongest and most reliable things in a climber's equipment. You don't need a backup unless you are exceptionally negligent about retiring old gear, in which case no amount of backing up is guaranteed to save you from some sort of gear failure.


Valarc


Feb 2, 2009, 11:54 AM
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randyb wrote:
For more security just run your locking beaner that you are belaying with through your harness and skip the belay loop all together. I have always done it this way and feel it NEVER hurts to be too safe. Just follow the same path as your safety attachment.


I wonder what the folks at Black Diamond or Petzl would say about your assertion that this is somehow automagically safer.

Belay loops were invented for a reason, and there's a reason there are very few commercial harnesses on the market without them anymore. A locking biner through both tie in points probably won't get you killed, but you're delusional if you think it's in any way superior from a safety stand point.

Now superior from a comfort or ergonomics or convenience standpoint, possibly - that's a tradeoff for you to decide. I'll stick to using my harness in the way it was designed.


randyb


Feb 2, 2009, 12:03 PM
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Re: [Valarc] Double up on everything except the belay loop.. [In reply to]
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Fewer pieces equal less parts to worry about failing. If you take a look at your harness you are basically turning your locking beaner into a belay loop that follows the exact path as the loop. It is clearly not a normal thing to worry about your belay loop failing but I imagine Todd Skinner would offer advice about belay loops if he had survived the faliure of his...


dingus


Feb 2, 2009, 12:03 PM
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Valarc wrote:
randyb wrote:
For more security just run your locking beaner that you are belaying with through your harness and skip the belay loop all together. I have always done it this way and feel it NEVER hurts to be too safe. Just follow the same path as your safety attachment.


I wonder what the folks at Black Diamond or Petzl would say about your assertion that this is somehow automagically safer.

Belay loops were invented for a reason, and there's a reason there are very few commercial harnesses on the market without them anymore. A locking biner through both tie in points probably won't get you killed, but you're delusional if you think it's in any way superior from a safety stand point.

Now superior from a comfort or ergonomics or convenience standpoint, possibly - that's a tradeoff for you to decide. I'll stick to using my harness in the way it was designed.

I used a biner through the harness for 15-20 years before a commercial harness belay loops were even available.

I had trust issues with belay loops, back at the beginning.

But I guess I'm dead from all that cross loading anyway, so nothing really matters.

BURP!

DMT


marc801


Feb 2, 2009, 12:09 PM
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Re: [Maddhatter] Double up on everything except the belay loop.. [In reply to]
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Maddhatter wrote:
coastal_climber wrote:
If your that worried, double it up with a piece of webbing.

Or a locker
And if you're that worried, quit climbing and take up a safer sport.

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