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rockie


Feb 17, 2009, 12:20 AM
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What are your view on that one out of interest?

I've a friend who is doing this, their child is aged 2, he said he married too fast before getting to know her properly. Very brave if you ask me! I always woke up more the more serious a relationship got for me, and usually scared off straight after I woke up.. heh!

Still I guess that saved me Tongue

But my parents did that, well my Dad did as I remember he kept saying when we were old enough he'd leave as he'd had enough at the time, they did not get along for some years due to 'things'. However, when we left home, they came back together in time and are as they were when they first met.. as close as ever, that part did surprise me I have to say.

So! on the one hand I see how it is good, for the child.

On the other hand I see how it is not, for the couple, and not always for the child either if parents do not get along.

In his case, they do get along, just nothing in common is what he told me.

I suggested marriage councelling in his case, as it doesn't sound too bad from where I am sitting.


(This post was edited by rockie on Feb 17, 2009, 12:21 AM)


chadnsc


Feb 17, 2009, 5:56 AM
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I honestly don't think any of us here are able to comment on this unless we have experienced it firsthand (i.e. stayed in a relationship for a child or your where said child).

There are way too many interpersonal variables that simply commenting on an over generalized assumption would accomplish nothing.

Regardless I feel that this topic should be placed in the campground forum as this topic dose not relate only to women.


adatesman


Feb 17, 2009, 6:25 AM
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mojomonkey


Feb 17, 2009, 6:32 AM
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rockie wrote:
But my parents did that, well my Dad did as I remember he kept saying when we were old enough he'd leave as he'd had enough at the time, they did not get along for some years due to 'things'.

I don't see how it is doing your kids any favors to stay while pointing out that you want to leave but are sticking around on their behalf. Nice load to put on the kids. How is that better than an amicable split where both parents stay involved but live separately?


wonderwoman


Feb 17, 2009, 7:49 AM
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A really good parent tries to model healthy behaviors and relationships for her children. Staying in a bad marriage is not healthy for anybody.


adatesman


Feb 17, 2009, 7:52 AM
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puerto


Feb 17, 2009, 8:27 AM
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A terrible idea! And, although they may fool themselves that they're doing it for the children's sake, it's usually out of their own fear and laziness.


puerto


Feb 17, 2009, 8:32 AM
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I have to add in relation to the first post: I also know a few couples that separated and years later got back together in much healthier relationships. But (obviously I guess) the improvement in the relationship wouldn't have happened if they hadn't split up to begin with.


lena_chita
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Feb 17, 2009, 10:53 AM
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I guess theoretically it is possible to stay together "for kids' sake". Advisable? I don't think so.

However, in my mind, if the parents WERE staying together for their children's sake, then telling the kids, "we are staying together for you guys" would be the very worst (and counter-productive) thing to do. Telling the kids that "I'll leave when you are older"? What sort of a slow torture is that?

IMO if the parents decide to do this sort of thing for some reason, their priority should be to keep any sign of tension hidden from the children, b/c what exactly IS the point of staying together for kids' sake, if the kids see the parents fighting and treating each other poorly? If the kids are waiting with baited breath for that day when the Dad decides that yeah, they are finally "old enough" and he can leave? Are the kids really better off with two parents living under the same roof and barely getting along vs. two parents living separately and maintaining the same level of polite/cordial relationship that they would have to maintain in order to "live together for kids' sake"?

In retrospect though, we don't know much about what our parents are going through, when we are kids. I have found out recently in talks with my parents that there was a point when my Dad seriously thought about leaving. I do remember couple fights and door slamming, with my Mom going to Grandma's house for the afternoon to "cool off". But I would have never guessed that the situation was that serious, or that the fights were any more serious than a quick temper flare-up followed by an equally quick cool-off. In the end, my Dad didn't leave, and we kids were none the wiser. My parents are still together-- next year it would be 40's anniversary for them. The kids are long-gone, so they obviously aren't staying together for kids' sake...

I obviously can't know what your parents went through, but the Dad leaving "b/c he's had enough" and then the parents coming back together after the kids were gone... Seems crazy, but I know several people of my age, whose parents divorced when the kids were in the "old enough" stage, and in several of those cases the parents got back togehter later in life... It was always with the Dad leaving b/c he "had enough" and he wanted a red motorcycle. Or that shiny convertible. Or the ability to go wherever he wanted to go, with nothing tying him down. It goes back to that whole "parenting is a huge stress" issue, LOL.


granite_grrl


Feb 17, 2009, 11:26 AM
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I think staying together simply for the child's sake is probobly unfair to all involved. But what the parent's do owe the child is to do everything they possibly can to work things out when things get rocky (counciling, etc). Hopefully they're doing it for themselves too, but they should at least do it for the sake of their child.


gogounou


Feb 17, 2009, 1:04 PM
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wonderwoman wrote:
A really good parent tries to model healthy behaviors and relationships for her children. Staying in a bad marriage is not healthy for anybody.

Perfectly stated.


clee03m


Feb 17, 2009, 1:17 PM
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One of my friend's parents stayed together in a loveless marriage, and she was so messed up. Required a lot of therapy. I would say, for childs' sakes, keep the love in the marriage.


rockie


Feb 17, 2009, 1:25 PM
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adatesman wrote:
Well, as said child I have to say it depends on the situation.... In my case they did stay together and it was a very bad thing, allowing the emotional and physical abuse from my father to continue. I understand why she stayed, but don't agree with it (and spent my teens and twenties nagging her to leave him).

I'd have to agree that there's way too many variables to make generalizations about this, and really it depends on the people and the situation.

I agree, same with mine, no physical abuse mind, just arguing, as a child it would have killed me had they broke up. As a teen both my brother first, then I were hoping they would split up, we'd had enough.
But then they got on and closer again some years after we both left home.


(This post was edited by rockie on Feb 24, 2009, 9:28 PM)


rockie


Feb 17, 2009, 1:27 PM
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wonderwoman wrote:
A really good parent tries to model healthy behaviors and relationships for her children. Staying in a bad marriage is not healthy for anybody.

totally agree.

Though the guy I know, they get on well, just nothing in common and rushed into marriage he feels. At least they get on though!


rockie


Feb 17, 2009, 1:28 PM
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puerto wrote:
I have to add in relation to the first post: I also know a few couples that separated and years later got back together in much healthier relationships. But (obviously I guess) the improvement in the relationship wouldn't have happened if they hadn't split up to begin with.

Very good point too, time and space heals old wounds. If the love was there to begin with this makes sense I'd say.


rockie


Feb 17, 2009, 1:34 PM
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lena_chita wrote:
I guess theoretically it is possible to stay together "for kids' sake". Advisable? I don't think so.

However, in my mind, if the parents WERE staying together for their children's sake, then telling the kids, "we are staying together for you guys" would be the very worst (and counter-productive) thing to do. Telling the kids that "I'll leave when you are older"? What sort of a slow torture is that?

In reply to:


Precisely, could not agree more. Though I know my Mum would have not coped had my Dad left her either.
I obviously can't know what your parents went through, but the Dad leaving "b/c he's had enough" and then the parents coming back together after the kids were gone... Seems crazy, but I know several people of my age, whose parents divorced when the kids were in the "old enough" stage, and in several of those cases the parents got back togehter later in life... It was always with the Dad leaving b/c he "had enough" and he wanted a red motorcycle.


That too, my Dad talked of getting a boat and happily spending time alone fishing suiting himself.

It was post natal depression and years of it, it was hard I admit and I don't know many men in all honesty who would have put up with that. Sad is it was not well recognized back then. Later on though they both got councelling (I made the appointment!).

I noticed it change some time after that, they got close again and now are closer than ever..
But what a long haul, I would never want to go through that myself in a relationship.


rockie


Feb 17, 2009, 1:35 PM
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clee03m wrote:
One of my friend's parents stayed together in a loveless marriage, and she was so messed up. Required a lot of therapy. I would say, for childs' sakes, keep the love in the marriage.


Interestingly, when I read your post, reminded me straight away of Lady Diana. It messed her up too!


limeydave


Feb 17, 2009, 1:44 PM
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rockie wrote:
clee03m wrote:
One of my friend's parents stayed together in a loveless marriage, and she was so messed up. Required a lot of therapy. I would say, for childs' sakes, keep the love in the marriage.


Interestingly, when I read your post, reminded me straight away of Lady Diana. It messed her up too!

Well, some marriages may just be having a rockie patch (geddit?) and it would be unwise to make a snap decision to divorce, rationalizing the stay together as 'for the kids' is dangerous IMO - it could breed more resentment.

If the kids are likely to grow up in a largely hostile environment, it might be better to call it quits. I've seen this personally work out for the best on several occasions.


rockie


Feb 17, 2009, 2:01 PM
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limeydave wrote:
rockie wrote:
clee03m wrote:
One of my friend's parents stayed together in a loveless marriage, and she was so messed up. Required a lot of therapy. I would say, for childs' sakes, keep the love in the marriage.


Interestingly, when I read your post, reminded me straight away of Lady Diana. It messed her up too!

Well, some marriages may just be having a rockie patch (geddit?)

Heh! Very funny Wink
Yet true, agreed.

Says he who is promoting divorce, love the sig limeydave: www.onlinedivorce.com

Though don't get married = Can't get divorced.


(This post was edited by rockie on Feb 17, 2009, 2:05 PM)


clausti


Feb 17, 2009, 5:51 PM
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rockie wrote:

I've a friend who is doing this, their child is aged 2, he said he married too fast before getting to know her properly.

i would, for the child's sake, not have had the child in a "fast" marriage to a woman whom didn't spend enough time "getting to know.. properly."

people should think more than that before they have kids, about the long-term environment they're bringing a life into. if you can't see three years into the future in a civil fashion with your partner, why in the world would you get pregnant?


chadnsc


Feb 18, 2009, 5:40 AM
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Very possibly they didn't plan to get pregnant, that's why.


wonderwoman


Feb 18, 2009, 5:42 AM
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I've been thinking more about this... There are some guys who will complain about their partner just to solicit 'comfort' from a lady friend.

Rockie - does this guy have a thing for you? Is it one of those 'You understand me so much more than my wife', situations?


clausti


Feb 18, 2009, 5:54 AM
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chadnsc wrote:
Very possibly they didn't plan to get pregnant, that's why.

probably. situations like that are really sad.

but part of me is like wtf? to the guy in this situation.

it's like, if you didn't want the kid, if you are a guy in a situation where you don't want to be a father- wear a god damn condom.


blueeyedclimber


Feb 18, 2009, 6:13 AM
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wonderwoman wrote:
A really good parent tries to model healthy behaviors and relationships for her children. Staying in a bad marriage is not healthy for anybody.

This is why I married you.

I split from my first wife when my daughter was 1.5 years old. It became clear to me early on that we were not right for each other. As WW said, children benefit from healthy modeling. What kind of example would I have been setting, if I had forgotten about my own happiness. Children are very observant, and anyone who thinks they can hide any tension from them is only fooling themselves.

Modeling a healthy relationship to your child will set them up to seek out healthy relationships and to take nothing less.

Josh


chadnsc


Feb 18, 2009, 6:21 AM
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clausti wrote:

probably. situations like that are really sad.

but part of me is like wtf? to the guy in this situation.

it's like, if you didn't want the kid, if you are a guy in a situation where you don't want to be a father- wear a god damn condom.


This is true but condoms break, the pill isn't fool proof, and lust can cause people not to think straight.


clausti


Feb 18, 2009, 6:51 AM
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chadnsc wrote:
clausti wrote:

probably. situations like that are really sad.

but part of me is like wtf? to the guy in this situation.

it's like, if you didn't want the kid, if you are a guy in a situation where you don't want to be a father- wear a god damn condom.

This is true but condoms break, the pill isn't fool proof, and lust can cause people not to think straight.

well sure. i'm going under the assumption here that, if he didn't feel like knew his wife that well (why get married?) and didn't think that decision through, that he probably wasn't an active part of the decision making process on having a kid, if there was one, and that he didn't even try and prevent it. by talking or by condom.

and the pill isn't "fool"-proof, no. but if you're taking it correctly (every day, within an hour of the same time) the failure rate is less then half a percent. actual failure (fail=pregnancy over a year of sex) rate is closer to 5%, because people don't always remember to take it. condoms are worse, with failure (pregnancy over a year of sex using a condom only) rate closer to 10 or 15 percent, but it does amaze me how many people think it's ok to try and roll it on the wrong way, flip it over and still use it.


chadnsc


Feb 18, 2009, 6:56 AM
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clausti wrote:
. . .but it does amaze me how many people think it's ok to try and roll it on the wrong way, flip it over and still use it.

Ewww! Crazy


wonderwoman


Feb 18, 2009, 7:34 AM
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blueeyedclimber wrote:
wonderwoman wrote:
A really good parent tries to model healthy behaviors and relationships for her children. Staying in a bad marriage is not healthy for anybody.

This is why I married you.

Modeling a healthy relationship to your child will set them up to seek out healthy relationships and to take nothing less.

This brings back a sad, yet telling, premarital moment! Josh's parents paid for us to have 'premarital counseling' to see if we were compatible. One of the questions was 'What examples or characteristics from your parent's marriage would you like to bring into your own relationship?'

We were given two weeks to come up with an example. To this day I can only come up with examples of what I DON'T want!

My parents are just like George Costanza's parents from Seinfeld. Only they swear and occasionally throw things! It's only funny from a distance - not when it's real life. I have no idea where I really came from.


adatesman


Feb 18, 2009, 7:46 AM
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Partner macherry


Feb 18, 2009, 9:47 AM
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wonderwoman wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
wonderwoman wrote:
A really good parent tries to model healthy behaviors and relationships for her children. Staying in a bad marriage is not healthy for anybody.

This is why I married you.

Modeling a healthy relationship to your child will set them up to seek out healthy relationships and to take nothing less.

This brings back a sad, yet telling, premarital moment! Josh's parents paid for us to have 'premarital counseling' to see if we were compatible. One of the questions was 'What examples or characteristics from your parent's marriage would you like to bring into your own relationship?'

We were given two weeks to come up with an example. To this day I can only come up with examples of what I DON'T want!

My parents are just like George Costanza's parents from Seinfeld. Only they swear and occasionally throw things! It's only funny from a distance - not when it's real life. I have no idea where I really came from.

my husband came from a dysfunctional household. there was alcohol abuse, constant fighting and parents that stayed together for the kids. He definitely knew what he DIDN"T want.

on the other hand, i came from a home where my parents had a healthy relationship. mom and dad are still very much in love. my mom is in a care facility and dad spends every day at her side.

i knew what i wanted in a relationship and bruce knew what he didn't want. we've been together 24 years.


puerto


Feb 18, 2009, 10:07 AM
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clausti wrote:
rockie wrote:

I've a friend who is doing this, their child is aged 2, he said he married too fast before getting to know her properly.

i would, for the child's sake, not have had the child in a "fast" marriage to a woman whom didn't spend enough time "getting to know.. properly."

people should think more than that before they have kids, about the long-term environment they're bringing a life into. if you can't see three years into the future in a civil fashion with your partner, why in the world would you get pregnant?

Amazingly, people are human and sometimes make mistakes. They may think or just naively hope that a partner who's kind of hard to get along with may actually become nicer once all the baby-nurturing hormones kick in. When in reality, the stress of taking care of a baby may make things even worse.

They may just say "screw it, I want a baby now, hope for the best and expect the worst.."

Once you are a parent though, even if things go wrong with your partner, there's no way you're really gonna look at your child and think to yourself "wow, weren't you a mistake."


clausti


Feb 18, 2009, 11:35 AM
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puerto wrote:
They may think or just naively hope that a partner who's kind of hard to get along with may actually become nicer once all the baby-nurturing hormones kick in.

well that is stupid.

In reply to:
They may just say "screw it, I want a baby now, hope for the best and expect the worst.."


and that is horrifically selfish. "i want a baby, and i don't care what my partner wants or how the baby will grow up." i am completely baffled and staggered by people who seem to think this way. what. the fuck.

In reply to:
Once you are a parent though, even if things go wrong with your partner, there's no way you're really gonna look at your child and think to yourself "wow, weren't you a mistake."

never going to TELL anyone that you think that, anyway. i refuse to believe that there is not a single dna-donor to a single child in the world who doesn't think that the kid was a mistake.


fenix83
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Feb 18, 2009, 11:42 AM
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I don't have kids, but I was the kid in a similar situation, so I'll throw in my tow cents, FWIW.

My parents had a deeply dysfunctional relationship (I came to realize this looking back on it as I grew older) which ultimately turned my house into the Cold War. My mother and brother versus my father and me (or is it I in this case?). This not only led to huge issues between me and my mom and me and my brother (which we still work on and deal with almost 15 years later) but it completely destroyed my brother's relationship with my dad.

The story for my younger siblings (who were 1 and 4 yrs old when my parents split) is different. Neither of them has any real relationship with my father (most of it is his doing, but the lingering resentment from my mother clearly doesn't help and eventually everything turns into a vicious cycle) but I feel that they have healthier relationships with the rest of the family because they were never forced to take sides (even if it was unintentional) during the Cold War.

The single best thing my parents did for us as their kids was to split up. I think every single person in my family, including my parents, agree with this. If they had been able to maintain a civilized relationship after the divorce (this was mostly my father), it would have been a lot better, but even it was positive even with all the damage the post-divorce all-out war caused.

-F


puerto


Feb 18, 2009, 12:14 PM
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Well clausti, "the heart has reasons that reason knows nothing of".

You may think people "should" make decisions on these things like Mr. Spock of Star-Trek fame might, but I believe the reality is people WILL make decisions exactly according to the nature of their brains. For good or bad, people's decision-makng includes input from the "emotional" centers of the brain as well.


rockie


Feb 18, 2009, 12:23 PM
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wonderwoman wrote:
I've been thinking more about this... There are some guys who will complain about their partner just to solicit 'comfort' from a lady friend.

Rockie - does this guy have a thing for you? Is it one of those 'You understand me so much more than my wife', situations?

Second thoughts, on reflection he may have done. Not friends anymore, I told him to stop flirting with other women and to focus on sorting out his marriage for sake of his child since he chooses to stay in his marriage for his child, and it's hardly fair to his wife to be flirting with others.. He didn't like that point however, but I had noticed it. So that was the end of that.


(This post was edited by rockie on Feb 24, 2009, 9:06 PM)


clausti


Feb 18, 2009, 12:25 PM
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puerto wrote:
Well clausti, "the heart has reasons that reason knows nothing of".

You may think people "should" make decisions on these things like Mr. Spock of Star-Trek fame might, but I believe the reality is people WILL make decisions exactly according to the nature of their brains. For good or bad, people's decision-makng includes input from the "emotional" centers of the brain as well.

some people are crappy decision makers, this is true. some people were apparently never told to think through things.

"all you need is love" is utter bullshit. you need love, plus helpings of rational thinking and diplomacy. some people do seem to be deficient on the rational side.

i love my husband to distraction and cry at freaking star trek episodes. i am far from an un-emotional person. but you know what? i wouldn't have married him if one of his keenest desires was to say, have three kids in the next 5 years and "let" me finish my degree by putting the kids in daycare from the age of 12 weeks. that would not have flown. i am just baffled by some people's thought processes or lack thereof on things that seem pretty fucking major, like, should i marry this person or should we have a kid.


rockie


Feb 18, 2009, 12:42 PM
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fenix83 wrote:
I don't have kids, but I was the kid in a similar situation, so I'll throw in my tow cents, FWIW.

My parents had a deeply dysfunctional relationship (I came to realize this looking back on it as I grew older) which ultimately turned my house into the Cold War. My mother and brother versus my father and me (or is it I in this case?). This not only led to huge issues between me and my mom and me and my brother (which we still work on and deal with almost 15 years later) but it completely destroyed my brother's relationship with my dad.

The story for my younger siblings (who were 1 and 4 yrs old when my parents split) is different. Neither of them has any real relationship with my father (most of it is his doing, but the lingering resentment from my mother clearly doesn't help and eventually everything turns into a vicious cycle) but I feel that they have healthier relationships with the rest of the family because they were never forced to take sides (even if it was unintentional) during the Cold War.

The single best thing my parents did for us as their kids was to split up. I think every single person in my family, including my parents, agree with this. If they had been able to maintain a civilized relationship after the divorce (this was mostly my father), it would have been a lot better, but even it was positive even with all the damage the post-divorce all-out war caused.

-F

It is interesting. My parents were not dysfunctional, but there are some bad habits in our family that need to kicked into touch. My parents at times denied anything happened, which angered me as that does not resolve matters just acting as if things never happened.

But now at last, it is coming up again and this time is being acknowledged.. that's a good start I think.


(This post was edited by rockie on Feb 24, 2009, 9:22 PM)


rockie


Feb 18, 2009, 12:54 PM
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adatesman wrote:
wonderwoman wrote:
I have no idea where I really came from.

You probably spent a lot of time thinking on what you wanted for yourself and your children. Negative examples can be a good thing, provided you realize what they are and actively do the opposite.

I meant to say something similar myself. Some kids come out very strong and switched on from bad experiences with family life.

Others sadly become very insecure, as a cousin of mine did after his Mum took off with her husbands best friend and took his younger sister as a baby with her. But left him behind when he was just 2 yrs old. I still can't understand how she could do that??

He has been in jail,for mixing with wrong friends etc, it's a real shame and as a child he was so cute. But I don't blame him, I blame the fact he did not get his needs met as a child, poor guy.


fenix83
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Feb 18, 2009, 1:03 PM
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Too bad about your relationship with your family rockie. My parents divorced early enough (I was 14 or so) that with some time, some counseling and a lot of luck things have gotten better between me and my brother and between me and my mother.

My mother and I still have fundamental differences, but we have learned how to handle them and are getting better at it. We have a pretty good relationship most of the time. One of the lingering issues, though, is that I KNOW some of my behaviors remind her of my father (some of them are objectively negative, some positive) and that pushes her buttons which makes her snap. The fact that she snaps pisses me off because it is often overreaction based on knee jerk and not due to whatever I said/did.

My brother and I had developed a sort of non-aggression treaty which defined our relationship. We barely interacted at all. Luckily, we both wound up getting involved in a music studio with a friend of his and the shared experiences there combined with our love of music have really brought us closer together. There are still a lot of unresolved issues and stuff, but the relationship has gotten a lot better and I think we will be able to work through them or let them go as time moves on.

There are a lot of other issues regarding the actual dynamics of a divorced couple (and their interactions with their kids) which I think are far more relevant to the well being of a child than just the divorce itself, but that, as they say, is another story.

-F


rockie


Feb 18, 2009, 1:13 PM
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fenix83 wrote:
Too bad about your relationship with your family rockie. My parents divorced early enough (I was 14 or so) that with some time, some counseling and a lot of luck things have gotten better between me and my brother and between me and my mother.

My mother and I still have fundamental differences, but we have learned how to handle them and are getting better at it. We have a pretty good relationship most of the time. One of the lingering issues, though, is that I KNOW some of my behaviors remind her of my father (some of them are objectively negative, some positive) and that pushes her buttons which makes her snap. The fact that she snaps pisses me off because it is often overreaction based on knee jerk and not due to whatever I said/did.

My brother and I had developed a sort of non-aggression treaty which defined our relationship. We barely interacted at all. Luckily, we both wound up getting involved in a music studio with a friend of his and the shared experiences there combined with our love of music have really brought us closer together. There are still a lot of unresolved issues and stuff, but the relationship has gotten a lot better and I think we will be able to work through them or let them go as time moves on.

There are a lot of other issues regarding the actual dynamics of a divorced couple (and their interactions with their kids) which I think are far more relevant to the well being of a child than just the divorce itself, but that, as they say, is another story.

-F

Thanks, and thanks for sharing. And again, some of what you say relates well with what I saw with my own side.

But at last seems things may finally get resolved, they want it to I can tell, which is good, and it's been a nicer surprise so far...


(This post was edited by rockie on Feb 24, 2009, 9:14 PM)


adatesman


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wonderwoman


Feb 18, 2009, 1:19 PM
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rockie wrote:
Quite bizarre, and angers me too as that does not resolve matters just acting as if things never happened.

I believe that sometimes you have to resolve that some relationships in your life will never be resolved.

rockie wrote:
Sadly my parents and brother act that way with me, but I am aware of it and do my best to not let that affect me, the only way now is we have cut off, and it is for the best how I see it.

And yes, sometimes the best way to cope with abusive situations is to look over your shoulder and say 'I will not be treated this way' as you walk out the door. I had this happen and went for a little while without talking with my parents about 10 years ago. Apparently the thought of losing their daughter forever scared them enough to cease and desist all verbal abuse.

However, it has been reported back to me that my parents still unfortunately resort to the 'stop crying or I'll give you something to cry about' phrase with their grandchildren (without the real threat of a smack), and are still absolutely horrible with kids! It is very unfortunate that we don't feel comfortable enough to leave our daughter with her grandparents for a weekend visit - but that's just how it is! They have mellowed out, but not mellow enough in my opinion.


lena_chita
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Feb 18, 2009, 1:22 PM
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Somewhat off-topic, but I had a completely random conversation with an indian co-worker, that sort of feeds into this thread.

The whole "staying in the loveless mariage is really horrible" thing is really dependent on what culture you are talking about.

The lady co-wroker I was talking with is 49yold. She had an arranged marriage. There was no talk of love ever. Her parents found the guy for her. They were reasonalbe people and they told her that if she strongly disliked the person they chose, they wouldn't force her. Well, she didn't dislike the person, he seemed reasonably nice, she seemed reasonably nice to him - and they married. Their kids are 27 and 23 years old. They have a very stable and happy marriage, and I would say that the kids are very grounded and happy people.

Love? She skoffs at that idea... Love is here, and gone tomorrow. Their marriage was a contract made for the purpose of joining family busnesses and raising heirs (they are both very well-off upper-caste people in India), but they have each other's respect and support, they seem to fit well together, they like each other, and they really truly seem very happy.


And she truly believes in the superiority of arranged marriage vs. marriage made based on "love". LOL, one major area of stress in her life is that she is letting her kids do what they want in this respect, no butting in, no interfering, and no arranging anything, unless they ask. But, she says, she really doubts that they will make a better choice than she and her husband could have made for them, b/c, she says, she has her children's best interest in mind, she knows them really well, and she knows what sort of a life they would be happy with long-term, beyond the immediate infatuation and attachment to one person that they currently love... so they would make a really good choice, and if there is "liking" between the two people to start with, and they both go into the relationship with the understanding that it is a long-term commitment, they will work on it, and the attachment will grow and strengthen over time.

I don't know, I guess she has a point. How often someone "falls in love", and all their firends and family members shake their heads and say:"This guy is all wrong for her"-- and eventually it turns out that yeah, they were right? Usually wit ha lot of emotional angst involved.


rockie


Feb 18, 2009, 1:29 PM
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wonderwoman wrote:
rockie wrote:
Quite bizarre, and angers me too as that does not resolve matters just acting as if things never happened.

I believe that sometimes you have to resolve that some relationships in your life will never be resolved.

rockie wrote:
Sadly my parents and brother act that way with me, but I am aware of it and do my best to not let that affect me, the only way now is we have cut off, and it is for the best how I see it.

And yes, sometimes the best way to cope with abusive situations is to look over your shoulder and say 'I will not be treated this way' as you walk out the door. I had this happen and went for a little while without talking with my parents about 10 years ago. Apparently the thought of losing their daughter forever scared them enough to cease and desist all verbal abuse.

However, it has been reported back to me that my parents still unfortunately resort to the 'stop crying or I'll give you something to cry about' phrase with their grandchildren (without the real threat of a smack), and are still absolutely horrible with kids! It is very unfortunate that we don't feel comfortable enough to leave our daughter with her grandparents for a weekend visit - but that's just how it is! They have mellowed out, but not mellow enough in my opinion.

Since then, I've had a few surprises, not bad ones either. They are airing and acknowledging things and want us to resolve things, so this is a good start to sorting it out finally. No more denials at least..


(This post was edited by rockie on Feb 24, 2009, 9:11 PM)


rockie


Feb 18, 2009, 1:40 PM
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lena_chita wrote:
Somewhat off-topic, but I had a completely random conversation with an indian co-worker, that sort of feeds into this thread.

The whole "staying in the loveless mariage is really horrible" thing is really dependent on what culture you are talking about.

The lady co-wroker I was talking with is 49yold. She had an arranged marriage. There was no talk of love ever. Her parents found the guy for her. They were reasonalbe people and they told her that if she strongly disliked the person they chose, they wouldn't force her. Well, she didn't dislike the person, he seemed reasonably nice, she seemed reasonably nice to him - and they married. Their kids are 27 and 23 years old. They have a very stable and happy marriage, and I would say that the kids are very grounded and happy people.

Love? She skoffs at that idea... Love is here, and

Interesting.

I see it the other way, mainly due to two friends from Indian culture I had in the UK.

One who married into an arranged marriage and then later divorced after having 2 children as he was abusive to her, physically, so rightly so she got out of that one.

The other one wanted to marry who he wanted, and he met and fell in love at least 3 times over to very nice women, I met them, he was a good friend of mine. He was honest with them and said due to his religion he could not marry them. In the end it would cause them to end the relationship as natural progression and the fact he could not marry them led to that.

I brought it up one day and told him he should just rebel! He told me it was not so easy, all the Khan family would hunt him down like a dog etc.. and he can't talk about it as thinking about it made him very angry..

I felt for him I really did..


rockie


Feb 18, 2009, 1:43 PM
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adatesman wrote:
rockie wrote:
adatesman wrote:
wonderwoman wrote:
I have no idea where I really came from.

You probably spent a lot of time thinking on what you wanted for yourself and your children. Negative examples can be a good thing, provided you realize what they are and actively do the opposite.

I meant to say something similar myself. Some kids come out very strong and switched on from bad experiences with family life.

He has been in jail,for mixing with wrong friends etc, it's a real shame and as a child he was so cute. But I don't blame him, I blame the fact he did not get his needs met as a child, poor guy.


I think you said it just fine. Smile

No telling what will happen once there's kids in the mix, but be damned if I'm going to allow myself to turn out like that.

A very strongly.. "Same here!" to your good and better attitude Smile

My Mum would treat my friends better than I, and be all over them if I took one to our house (hence I stopped doing so).


(This post was edited by rockie on Feb 24, 2009, 9:03 PM)


wonderwoman


Feb 18, 2009, 1:48 PM
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rockie wrote:
Thank you, and very true. Wow! to that last part, my parents won't even get near their grandchild (my child), I won't allow it. Fact they knew I was pregnant and had not bothered to contact me, just says a lot. They are all over and spoil my brothers children however. I do not care any more.

I am so sorry to hear this! No matter how tough you are, this still has to hurt! But it sounds as if you are doing the absolute right thing in your decisions. We all learn from our parents mistakes, and it sounds like you'll be a better mom for it!


rockie


Feb 18, 2009, 1:57 PM
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wonderwoman wrote:
rockie wrote:
Thank you, and very true. Wow! to that last part, my parents won't even get near their grandchild (my child), I won't allow it. Fact they knew I was pregnant and had not bothered to contact me, just says a lot. They are all over and spoil my brothers children however. I do not care any more.

I am so sorry to hear this! No matter how tough you are, this still has to hurt! But it sounds as if you are doing the absolute right thing in your decisions. We all learn from our parents mistakes, and it sounds like you'll be a better mom for it!

They've been in touch since this last post.. and better still want us to resolve things, can't argue with that. Not easy mind.


(This post was edited by rockie on Feb 24, 2009, 9:00 PM)


adatesman


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clausti


Feb 18, 2009, 3:34 PM
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adatesman wrote:

Do threads in the LR always take serious turns like this? I'm seeing a whole 'nother side of people here, and frankly its a welcome change from the usual RC prattle.

-a.

often. it's one of the reasons the powers that green often leave threads in here in place even when they're not really climbing related or female specific.


rockie


Feb 19, 2009, 12:29 AM
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adatesman wrote:
wonderwoman wrote:
rockie wrote:
Quite bizarre, and angers me too as that does not resolve matters just acting as if things never happened.

I believe that sometimes you have to resolve that some relationships in your life will never be resolved.

Not only that, but also that some relationships are unhealthy, destructive or otherwise a bad idea. Ending the viscous circle abuse is difficult, but can be done. I think the last words I said to my dad were in reference to what I'd do if he ever laid hands on my mom again (read: not at all pleasant) and I'm ok with that. In fact, everyone is probably better off if there's no contact between me and my dad since no one else in the family is willing to call him out on his behavior so I make a point of it.

Unfortunately my younger brother seems headed down that track (read: inconsiderate, judgmental asshole, not physically abusive), so time will tell if he turns it around and tries to repair our relationship.

Sigh.

Do threads in the LR always take serious turns like this? I'm seeing a whole 'nother side of people here, and frankly its a welcome change from the usual RC prattle.

-a.

I hear you regarding your brother, and I hope for your sake it turns around.

And good for you standing up to your Dad's negative behaviour. Some people don't have the guts or feel because it is their Father they have to put up with it or something like that, but I disagree, no one should have to put up with any abuse in any relationship.

And I hear you regarding RC com and this being a welcome change, no kidding, I like the interactions here more, not the 'ego' attitude on some of the other threads.

Good to have you here too, sure stick around Smile


(This post was edited by rockie on Feb 24, 2009, 8:54 PM)


Gmburns2000


Feb 19, 2009, 7:17 AM
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adatesman wrote:

Do threads in the LR always take serious turns like this? I'm seeing a whole 'nother side of people here, and frankly its a welcome change from the usual RC prattle.

-a.

Yup, part of the reason I'm here so much. I actually enjoy the intellectual conversation.


acacongua


Feb 19, 2009, 9:27 AM
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lena_chita wrote:
Somewhat off-topic, but I had a completely random I don't know, I guess she has a point. How often someone "falls in love", and all their firends and family members shake their heads and say:"This guy is all wrong for her"-- and eventually it turns out that yeah, they were right? Usually wit ha lot of emotional angst involved.

I strongly urge you all to go get a copy of How to be an Adult in Relationships by Richo. Eloquently and strategically written for us to understand what "Love" means.

On the topic of having children, wouldn't it be great if humans (and dogs/cats too) behaved as eagles do? Before they procreate, they scout their territory to make certain they have enough food to provide their offspring. If the territory is lacking, then they don't pro-create. It's just a fact. We unfortunately, are cursed with emotion and an overwhelming itch below the belt.


Gmburns2000


Feb 19, 2009, 9:45 AM
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acacongua wrote:
[
On the topic of having children, wouldn't it be great if humans (and dogs/cats too) behaved as eagles do? Before they procreate, they scout their territory to make certain they have enough food to provide their offspring. If the territory is lacking, then they don't pro-create. It's just a fact. We unfortunately, are cursed with emotion and an overwhelming itch below the belt.

I looked. The cupboard is full, so now I'm off to make little greggies. Cool


wonderwoman


Feb 19, 2009, 12:33 PM
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Is this:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
Yup, part of the reason I'm here so much. I actually enjoy the intellectual conversation.

Really consistent with this:

Gmburns2000 wrote:
I looked. The cupboard is full, so now I'm off to make little greggies. Cool

Crazy

Please don't kill a good thread!


Gmburns2000


Feb 19, 2009, 12:43 PM
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Re: [wonderwoman] View of couples who stay together for childs sake.. [In reply to]
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wonderwoman wrote:
Is this:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
Yup, part of the reason I'm here so much. I actually enjoy the intellectual conversation.

Really consistent with this:

Gmburns2000 wrote:
I looked. The cupboard is full, so now I'm off to make little greggies. Cool

Crazy

Please don't kill a good thread!
Oh come on, it doesn't have to be all serious does it?


adatesman


Feb 19, 2009, 1:01 PM
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Gmburns2000


Feb 19, 2009, 1:49 PM
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Re: [adatesman] View of couples who stay together for childs sake.. [In reply to]
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adatesman wrote:

Greg- I'm surprised you didn't go for the low hanging fruit:
In reply to:
We unfortunately, are cursed with emotion and an overwhelming itch below the belt.

Lots of directions to take that and you have no idea how hard it is for me to not do so. But I'm new in town and need to keep up appearances.... Angelic

Rumor has it the downtime this past week was the mods installing kryptonite to slow me down. This is clear proof that it is working.





But in order to "not kill the thread" - positive experiences don't always lead to kids growing into good adults, and negative experiences don't always lead to kids growing up to being bad adults.

My experience with my mother and stepfather (by far and away mostly him) was very negative, and I think I turned out OK. My sisters haven't done what I've done, but they turned out OK, too. We survived, learned from what we saw, and made our own lives.

I've seen kids who had the most loving parents really struggle when they hit the real world. I've known a lot of folks who had alcoholic parents - many of those parents were also abusive - go on to lead very solid and productive lives, with no abuse.

No one should have to put up with shit like that, but in reality, not all kids who grow up under abusers become abusers themselves.

Should parents stay together for the kids? No, they shouldn't. But to assume that the kids only learn what they see and aren't able to make thier own decisions is terribly misguided. A child possesses the ability to form opinions, regardless of how innocent we think they are.


rockie


Feb 19, 2009, 2:23 PM
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Re: [Gmburns2000] View of couples who stay together for childs sake.. [In reply to]
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
adatesman wrote:

Greg- I'm surprised you didn't go for the low hanging fruit:
In reply to:
We unfortunately, are cursed with emotion and an overwhelming itch below the belt.

Lots of directions to take that and you have no idea how hard it is for me to not do so. But I'm new in town and need to keep up appearances.... Angelic

Rumor has it the downtime this past week was the mods installing kryptonite to slow me down. This is clear proof that it is working.





But in order to "not kill the thread" - positive experiences don't always lead to kids growing into good adults, and negative experiences don't always lead to kids growing up to being bad adults.

My experience with my mother and stepfather (by far and away mostly him) was very negative, and I think I turned out OK. My sisters haven't done what I've done, but they turned out OK, too. We survived, learned from what we saw, and made our own lives.

I've seen kids who had the most loving parents really struggle when they hit the real world. I've known a lot of folks who had alcoholic parents - many of those parents were also abusive - go on to lead very solid and productive lives, with no abuse.

No one should have to put up with shit like that, but in reality, not all kids who grow up under abusers become abusers themselves.

Should parents stay together for the kids? No, they shouldn't. But to assume that the kids only learn what they see and aren't able to make thier own decisions is terribly misguided. A child possesses the ability to form opinions, regardless of how innocent we think they are.

That was so well put, and have to say it, but I totally agree with all that.
I too came out okay, I refused to let them 'affect' me basically, and I refuse to copy their negative traits. Helps if you 'know better' obviously. And seeing a better role model (as I have with other families) is a good and better example to follow, as is education, I woke up to alot via my nurse training too. E.g. you do not need to smack a child to discipline them. There are other better ways.


(This post was edited by rockie on Feb 19, 2009, 2:24 PM)


petsfed


Feb 20, 2009, 4:53 PM
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Re: [clausti] View of couples who stay together for childs sake.. [In reply to]
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clausti wrote:
puerto wrote:
They may think or just naively hope that a partner who's kind of hard to get along with may actually become nicer once all the baby-nurturing hormones kick in.

well that is stupid.

In reply to:
They may just say "screw it, I want a baby now, hope for the best and expect the worst.."


and that is horrifically selfish. "i want a baby, and i don't care what my partner wants or how the baby will grow up." i am completely baffled and staggered by people who seem to think this way. what. the fuck.

In reply to:
Once you are a parent though, even if things go wrong with your partner, there's no way you're really gonna look at your child and think to yourself "wow, weren't you a mistake."

never going to TELL anyone that you think that, anyway. i refuse to believe that there is not a single dna-donor to a single child in the world who doesn't think that the kid was a mistake.

Unfortunately, I've met my fair share of emotionally unstable people who desperately wanted children. I've also seen a few in the news (including one who took it to a ridiculous 14-sided extreme). Hell, I even dated a girl who actually said "if we have a baby we'll be all right". Nothing kills a boner faster. NOTHING.

What it comes down to is a strong desire for validation via the physical expression of affection. If your self worth is directly related to how much people express happiness at your presence, you need help.

To the topic at hand: my sister divorced her husband last year, and my niece was left to pick up the pieces. While it left my niece pretty upset, I understood what my sister was doing when she decided to get a divorce. Staying in an unhappy or unhealthy relationship damages you and it damages everything you do.


rockie


Feb 21, 2009, 1:25 PM
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Re: [petsfed] View of couples who stay together for childs sake.. [In reply to]
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Agree with you petsfed.

You can't change someone anyway.

Having mine as I am not getting younger, it is not as I wanted it, as I preferred to be married first, however, I guess I see it as fate now, I always wanted one max, and now I am having, not planned this way I admit.

In any case if I get married I am only going to be older and by then too old to have a child anyway so now or never is also how I see it, and may well be the last chance, so!
I want to know who their Dad is for the childs sake etc. But not so sure my ex would change for the better so why would I want him back in that case?

Oh I too had the, "he will probably change his attitude when he sees his child for the first time" ???
But why would he?

I have also had the "You should give him another chance" attitude too.

On a more positive note, I just received an email from my Mum to congratulate me, and asking how I am and if I needed anything? etc. A nice surprise I have to say. But in all honesty I can honestly say out of my family it would be my Mum if anyone who would get in touch.. as I say, she does have a 'sweet side', and she does care I know.
Also, on reflection I really noticed when they visited me here a year ago, how better everything was with them etc compared to when I'd visit them back in the UK, they stayed at hotel too not at mine, so maybe their coming here is a better idea in that case, and besides I only want to stay here anyway Smile


(This post was edited by rockie on Feb 24, 2009, 9:36 PM)


squierbypetzl
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Feb 24, 2009, 11:06 PM
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Re: [rockie] View of couples who stay together for childs sake.. [In reply to]
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Glad to hear things are looking up, and I sincerely hope they stay that way (if not improve). Smile


rockie


Feb 25, 2009, 8:27 PM
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Re: [squierbypetzl] View of couples who stay together for childs sake.. [In reply to]
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squierbypetzl wrote:
Glad to hear things are looking up, and I sincerely hope they stay that way (if not improve). Smile

Yes well I hope so too, only it's gone back to silent mode again for the foreseeable future, I just can't understand why they'd want to believe a made up nasty lie someone said of me some years ago (my sister in law as it happens as I found out today), rather than believe what I said at the time and again today - that it was not true and just that.. a lie.

No point being near any of that until they realize they should not automatically assume and believe what someone has made up, but instead should really know better. May seem petty but when it was a pretty nasty lie about my family and caused one of the problems in our family, it is hardly petty..
I simply made it perfectly clear that I am not putting up with that nonsense anymore.

I let my Mum know she and my Dad can visit here after child is born if they want to, as I remember when they visited me before how much much better it was compared to when I go back their end.
However, my brother and sis in law are not welcome, I am keeping the trouble away basically, and my parents were not the cause of that, but they were wrong to listen and believe it, and then side with them as a result of that, as I pointed out. So we shall see..


(This post was edited by rockie on Feb 25, 2009, 10:13 PM)


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