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clausti


Feb 18, 2009, 6:51 AM
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Re: [chadnsc] View of couples who stay together for childs sake.. [In reply to]
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chadnsc wrote:
clausti wrote:

probably. situations like that are really sad.

but part of me is like wtf? to the guy in this situation.

it's like, if you didn't want the kid, if you are a guy in a situation where you don't want to be a father- wear a god damn condom.

This is true but condoms break, the pill isn't fool proof, and lust can cause people not to think straight.

well sure. i'm going under the assumption here that, if he didn't feel like knew his wife that well (why get married?) and didn't think that decision through, that he probably wasn't an active part of the decision making process on having a kid, if there was one, and that he didn't even try and prevent it. by talking or by condom.

and the pill isn't "fool"-proof, no. but if you're taking it correctly (every day, within an hour of the same time) the failure rate is less then half a percent. actual failure (fail=pregnancy over a year of sex) rate is closer to 5%, because people don't always remember to take it. condoms are worse, with failure (pregnancy over a year of sex using a condom only) rate closer to 10 or 15 percent, but it does amaze me how many people think it's ok to try and roll it on the wrong way, flip it over and still use it.


chadnsc


Feb 18, 2009, 6:56 AM
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clausti wrote:
. . .but it does amaze me how many people think it's ok to try and roll it on the wrong way, flip it over and still use it.

Ewww! Crazy


wonderwoman


Feb 18, 2009, 7:34 AM
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] View of couples who stay together for childs sake.. [In reply to]
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blueeyedclimber wrote:
wonderwoman wrote:
A really good parent tries to model healthy behaviors and relationships for her children. Staying in a bad marriage is not healthy for anybody.

This is why I married you.

Modeling a healthy relationship to your child will set them up to seek out healthy relationships and to take nothing less.

This brings back a sad, yet telling, premarital moment! Josh's parents paid for us to have 'premarital counseling' to see if we were compatible. One of the questions was 'What examples or characteristics from your parent's marriage would you like to bring into your own relationship?'

We were given two weeks to come up with an example. To this day I can only come up with examples of what I DON'T want!

My parents are just like George Costanza's parents from Seinfeld. Only they swear and occasionally throw things! It's only funny from a distance - not when it's real life. I have no idea where I really came from.


adatesman


Feb 18, 2009, 7:46 AM
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Partner macherry


Feb 18, 2009, 9:47 AM
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wonderwoman wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
wonderwoman wrote:
A really good parent tries to model healthy behaviors and relationships for her children. Staying in a bad marriage is not healthy for anybody.

This is why I married you.

Modeling a healthy relationship to your child will set them up to seek out healthy relationships and to take nothing less.

This brings back a sad, yet telling, premarital moment! Josh's parents paid for us to have 'premarital counseling' to see if we were compatible. One of the questions was 'What examples or characteristics from your parent's marriage would you like to bring into your own relationship?'

We were given two weeks to come up with an example. To this day I can only come up with examples of what I DON'T want!

My parents are just like George Costanza's parents from Seinfeld. Only they swear and occasionally throw things! It's only funny from a distance - not when it's real life. I have no idea where I really came from.

my husband came from a dysfunctional household. there was alcohol abuse, constant fighting and parents that stayed together for the kids. He definitely knew what he DIDN"T want.

on the other hand, i came from a home where my parents had a healthy relationship. mom and dad are still very much in love. my mom is in a care facility and dad spends every day at her side.

i knew what i wanted in a relationship and bruce knew what he didn't want. we've been together 24 years.


puerto


Feb 18, 2009, 10:07 AM
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Re: [clausti] View of couples who stay together for childs sake.. [In reply to]
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clausti wrote:
rockie wrote:

I've a friend who is doing this, their child is aged 2, he said he married too fast before getting to know her properly.

i would, for the child's sake, not have had the child in a "fast" marriage to a woman whom didn't spend enough time "getting to know.. properly."

people should think more than that before they have kids, about the long-term environment they're bringing a life into. if you can't see three years into the future in a civil fashion with your partner, why in the world would you get pregnant?

Amazingly, people are human and sometimes make mistakes. They may think or just naively hope that a partner who's kind of hard to get along with may actually become nicer once all the baby-nurturing hormones kick in. When in reality, the stress of taking care of a baby may make things even worse.

They may just say "screw it, I want a baby now, hope for the best and expect the worst.."

Once you are a parent though, even if things go wrong with your partner, there's no way you're really gonna look at your child and think to yourself "wow, weren't you a mistake."


clausti


Feb 18, 2009, 11:35 AM
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Re: [puerto] View of couples who stay together for childs sake.. [In reply to]
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puerto wrote:
They may think or just naively hope that a partner who's kind of hard to get along with may actually become nicer once all the baby-nurturing hormones kick in.

well that is stupid.

In reply to:
They may just say "screw it, I want a baby now, hope for the best and expect the worst.."


and that is horrifically selfish. "i want a baby, and i don't care what my partner wants or how the baby will grow up." i am completely baffled and staggered by people who seem to think this way. what. the fuck.

In reply to:
Once you are a parent though, even if things go wrong with your partner, there's no way you're really gonna look at your child and think to yourself "wow, weren't you a mistake."

never going to TELL anyone that you think that, anyway. i refuse to believe that there is not a single dna-donor to a single child in the world who doesn't think that the kid was a mistake.


fenix83
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Feb 18, 2009, 11:42 AM
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I don't have kids, but I was the kid in a similar situation, so I'll throw in my tow cents, FWIW.

My parents had a deeply dysfunctional relationship (I came to realize this looking back on it as I grew older) which ultimately turned my house into the Cold War. My mother and brother versus my father and me (or is it I in this case?). This not only led to huge issues between me and my mom and me and my brother (which we still work on and deal with almost 15 years later) but it completely destroyed my brother's relationship with my dad.

The story for my younger siblings (who were 1 and 4 yrs old when my parents split) is different. Neither of them has any real relationship with my father (most of it is his doing, but the lingering resentment from my mother clearly doesn't help and eventually everything turns into a vicious cycle) but I feel that they have healthier relationships with the rest of the family because they were never forced to take sides (even if it was unintentional) during the Cold War.

The single best thing my parents did for us as their kids was to split up. I think every single person in my family, including my parents, agree with this. If they had been able to maintain a civilized relationship after the divorce (this was mostly my father), it would have been a lot better, but even it was positive even with all the damage the post-divorce all-out war caused.

-F


puerto


Feb 18, 2009, 12:14 PM
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Well clausti, "the heart has reasons that reason knows nothing of".

You may think people "should" make decisions on these things like Mr. Spock of Star-Trek fame might, but I believe the reality is people WILL make decisions exactly according to the nature of their brains. For good or bad, people's decision-makng includes input from the "emotional" centers of the brain as well.


rockie


Feb 18, 2009, 12:23 PM
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wonderwoman wrote:
I've been thinking more about this... There are some guys who will complain about their partner just to solicit 'comfort' from a lady friend.

Rockie - does this guy have a thing for you? Is it one of those 'You understand me so much more than my wife', situations?

Second thoughts, on reflection he may have done. Not friends anymore, I told him to stop flirting with other women and to focus on sorting out his marriage for sake of his child since he chooses to stay in his marriage for his child, and it's hardly fair to his wife to be flirting with others.. He didn't like that point however, but I had noticed it. So that was the end of that.


(This post was edited by rockie on Feb 24, 2009, 9:06 PM)


clausti


Feb 18, 2009, 12:25 PM
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puerto wrote:
Well clausti, "the heart has reasons that reason knows nothing of".

You may think people "should" make decisions on these things like Mr. Spock of Star-Trek fame might, but I believe the reality is people WILL make decisions exactly according to the nature of their brains. For good or bad, people's decision-makng includes input from the "emotional" centers of the brain as well.

some people are crappy decision makers, this is true. some people were apparently never told to think through things.

"all you need is love" is utter bullshit. you need love, plus helpings of rational thinking and diplomacy. some people do seem to be deficient on the rational side.

i love my husband to distraction and cry at freaking star trek episodes. i am far from an un-emotional person. but you know what? i wouldn't have married him if one of his keenest desires was to say, have three kids in the next 5 years and "let" me finish my degree by putting the kids in daycare from the age of 12 weeks. that would not have flown. i am just baffled by some people's thought processes or lack thereof on things that seem pretty fucking major, like, should i marry this person or should we have a kid.


rockie


Feb 18, 2009, 12:42 PM
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fenix83 wrote:
I don't have kids, but I was the kid in a similar situation, so I'll throw in my tow cents, FWIW.

My parents had a deeply dysfunctional relationship (I came to realize this looking back on it as I grew older) which ultimately turned my house into the Cold War. My mother and brother versus my father and me (or is it I in this case?). This not only led to huge issues between me and my mom and me and my brother (which we still work on and deal with almost 15 years later) but it completely destroyed my brother's relationship with my dad.

The story for my younger siblings (who were 1 and 4 yrs old when my parents split) is different. Neither of them has any real relationship with my father (most of it is his doing, but the lingering resentment from my mother clearly doesn't help and eventually everything turns into a vicious cycle) but I feel that they have healthier relationships with the rest of the family because they were never forced to take sides (even if it was unintentional) during the Cold War.

The single best thing my parents did for us as their kids was to split up. I think every single person in my family, including my parents, agree with this. If they had been able to maintain a civilized relationship after the divorce (this was mostly my father), it would have been a lot better, but even it was positive even with all the damage the post-divorce all-out war caused.

-F

It is interesting. My parents were not dysfunctional, but there are some bad habits in our family that need to kicked into touch. My parents at times denied anything happened, which angered me as that does not resolve matters just acting as if things never happened.

But now at last, it is coming up again and this time is being acknowledged.. that's a good start I think.


(This post was edited by rockie on Feb 24, 2009, 9:22 PM)


rockie


Feb 18, 2009, 12:54 PM
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adatesman wrote:
wonderwoman wrote:
I have no idea where I really came from.

You probably spent a lot of time thinking on what you wanted for yourself and your children. Negative examples can be a good thing, provided you realize what they are and actively do the opposite.

I meant to say something similar myself. Some kids come out very strong and switched on from bad experiences with family life.

Others sadly become very insecure, as a cousin of mine did after his Mum took off with her husbands best friend and took his younger sister as a baby with her. But left him behind when he was just 2 yrs old. I still can't understand how she could do that??

He has been in jail,for mixing with wrong friends etc, it's a real shame and as a child he was so cute. But I don't blame him, I blame the fact he did not get his needs met as a child, poor guy.


fenix83
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Feb 18, 2009, 1:03 PM
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Too bad about your relationship with your family rockie. My parents divorced early enough (I was 14 or so) that with some time, some counseling and a lot of luck things have gotten better between me and my brother and between me and my mother.

My mother and I still have fundamental differences, but we have learned how to handle them and are getting better at it. We have a pretty good relationship most of the time. One of the lingering issues, though, is that I KNOW some of my behaviors remind her of my father (some of them are objectively negative, some positive) and that pushes her buttons which makes her snap. The fact that she snaps pisses me off because it is often overreaction based on knee jerk and not due to whatever I said/did.

My brother and I had developed a sort of non-aggression treaty which defined our relationship. We barely interacted at all. Luckily, we both wound up getting involved in a music studio with a friend of his and the shared experiences there combined with our love of music have really brought us closer together. There are still a lot of unresolved issues and stuff, but the relationship has gotten a lot better and I think we will be able to work through them or let them go as time moves on.

There are a lot of other issues regarding the actual dynamics of a divorced couple (and their interactions with their kids) which I think are far more relevant to the well being of a child than just the divorce itself, but that, as they say, is another story.

-F


rockie


Feb 18, 2009, 1:13 PM
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fenix83 wrote:
Too bad about your relationship with your family rockie. My parents divorced early enough (I was 14 or so) that with some time, some counseling and a lot of luck things have gotten better between me and my brother and between me and my mother.

My mother and I still have fundamental differences, but we have learned how to handle them and are getting better at it. We have a pretty good relationship most of the time. One of the lingering issues, though, is that I KNOW some of my behaviors remind her of my father (some of them are objectively negative, some positive) and that pushes her buttons which makes her snap. The fact that she snaps pisses me off because it is often overreaction based on knee jerk and not due to whatever I said/did.

My brother and I had developed a sort of non-aggression treaty which defined our relationship. We barely interacted at all. Luckily, we both wound up getting involved in a music studio with a friend of his and the shared experiences there combined with our love of music have really brought us closer together. There are still a lot of unresolved issues and stuff, but the relationship has gotten a lot better and I think we will be able to work through them or let them go as time moves on.

There are a lot of other issues regarding the actual dynamics of a divorced couple (and their interactions with their kids) which I think are far more relevant to the well being of a child than just the divorce itself, but that, as they say, is another story.

-F

Thanks, and thanks for sharing. And again, some of what you say relates well with what I saw with my own side.

But at last seems things may finally get resolved, they want it to I can tell, which is good, and it's been a nicer surprise so far...


(This post was edited by rockie on Feb 24, 2009, 9:14 PM)


adatesman


Feb 18, 2009, 1:18 PM
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wonderwoman


Feb 18, 2009, 1:19 PM
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rockie wrote:
Quite bizarre, and angers me too as that does not resolve matters just acting as if things never happened.

I believe that sometimes you have to resolve that some relationships in your life will never be resolved.

rockie wrote:
Sadly my parents and brother act that way with me, but I am aware of it and do my best to not let that affect me, the only way now is we have cut off, and it is for the best how I see it.

And yes, sometimes the best way to cope with abusive situations is to look over your shoulder and say 'I will not be treated this way' as you walk out the door. I had this happen and went for a little while without talking with my parents about 10 years ago. Apparently the thought of losing their daughter forever scared them enough to cease and desist all verbal abuse.

However, it has been reported back to me that my parents still unfortunately resort to the 'stop crying or I'll give you something to cry about' phrase with their grandchildren (without the real threat of a smack), and are still absolutely horrible with kids! It is very unfortunate that we don't feel comfortable enough to leave our daughter with her grandparents for a weekend visit - but that's just how it is! They have mellowed out, but not mellow enough in my opinion.


lena_chita
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Feb 18, 2009, 1:22 PM
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Somewhat off-topic, but I had a completely random conversation with an indian co-worker, that sort of feeds into this thread.

The whole "staying in the loveless mariage is really horrible" thing is really dependent on what culture you are talking about.

The lady co-wroker I was talking with is 49yold. She had an arranged marriage. There was no talk of love ever. Her parents found the guy for her. They were reasonalbe people and they told her that if she strongly disliked the person they chose, they wouldn't force her. Well, she didn't dislike the person, he seemed reasonably nice, she seemed reasonably nice to him - and they married. Their kids are 27 and 23 years old. They have a very stable and happy marriage, and I would say that the kids are very grounded and happy people.

Love? She skoffs at that idea... Love is here, and gone tomorrow. Their marriage was a contract made for the purpose of joining family busnesses and raising heirs (they are both very well-off upper-caste people in India), but they have each other's respect and support, they seem to fit well together, they like each other, and they really truly seem very happy.


And she truly believes in the superiority of arranged marriage vs. marriage made based on "love". LOL, one major area of stress in her life is that she is letting her kids do what they want in this respect, no butting in, no interfering, and no arranging anything, unless they ask. But, she says, she really doubts that they will make a better choice than she and her husband could have made for them, b/c, she says, she has her children's best interest in mind, she knows them really well, and she knows what sort of a life they would be happy with long-term, beyond the immediate infatuation and attachment to one person that they currently love... so they would make a really good choice, and if there is "liking" between the two people to start with, and they both go into the relationship with the understanding that it is a long-term commitment, they will work on it, and the attachment will grow and strengthen over time.

I don't know, I guess she has a point. How often someone "falls in love", and all their firends and family members shake their heads and say:"This guy is all wrong for her"-- and eventually it turns out that yeah, they were right? Usually wit ha lot of emotional angst involved.


rockie


Feb 18, 2009, 1:29 PM
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wonderwoman wrote:
rockie wrote:
Quite bizarre, and angers me too as that does not resolve matters just acting as if things never happened.

I believe that sometimes you have to resolve that some relationships in your life will never be resolved.

rockie wrote:
Sadly my parents and brother act that way with me, but I am aware of it and do my best to not let that affect me, the only way now is we have cut off, and it is for the best how I see it.

And yes, sometimes the best way to cope with abusive situations is to look over your shoulder and say 'I will not be treated this way' as you walk out the door. I had this happen and went for a little while without talking with my parents about 10 years ago. Apparently the thought of losing their daughter forever scared them enough to cease and desist all verbal abuse.

However, it has been reported back to me that my parents still unfortunately resort to the 'stop crying or I'll give you something to cry about' phrase with their grandchildren (without the real threat of a smack), and are still absolutely horrible with kids! It is very unfortunate that we don't feel comfortable enough to leave our daughter with her grandparents for a weekend visit - but that's just how it is! They have mellowed out, but not mellow enough in my opinion.

Since then, I've had a few surprises, not bad ones either. They are airing and acknowledging things and want us to resolve things, so this is a good start to sorting it out finally. No more denials at least..


(This post was edited by rockie on Feb 24, 2009, 9:11 PM)


rockie


Feb 18, 2009, 1:40 PM
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lena_chita wrote:
Somewhat off-topic, but I had a completely random conversation with an indian co-worker, that sort of feeds into this thread.

The whole "staying in the loveless mariage is really horrible" thing is really dependent on what culture you are talking about.

The lady co-wroker I was talking with is 49yold. She had an arranged marriage. There was no talk of love ever. Her parents found the guy for her. They were reasonalbe people and they told her that if she strongly disliked the person they chose, they wouldn't force her. Well, she didn't dislike the person, he seemed reasonably nice, she seemed reasonably nice to him - and they married. Their kids are 27 and 23 years old. They have a very stable and happy marriage, and I would say that the kids are very grounded and happy people.

Love? She skoffs at that idea... Love is here, and

Interesting.

I see it the other way, mainly due to two friends from Indian culture I had in the UK.

One who married into an arranged marriage and then later divorced after having 2 children as he was abusive to her, physically, so rightly so she got out of that one.

The other one wanted to marry who he wanted, and he met and fell in love at least 3 times over to very nice women, I met them, he was a good friend of mine. He was honest with them and said due to his religion he could not marry them. In the end it would cause them to end the relationship as natural progression and the fact he could not marry them led to that.

I brought it up one day and told him he should just rebel! He told me it was not so easy, all the Khan family would hunt him down like a dog etc.. and he can't talk about it as thinking about it made him very angry..

I felt for him I really did..


rockie


Feb 18, 2009, 1:43 PM
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adatesman wrote:
rockie wrote:
adatesman wrote:
wonderwoman wrote:
I have no idea where I really came from.

You probably spent a lot of time thinking on what you wanted for yourself and your children. Negative examples can be a good thing, provided you realize what they are and actively do the opposite.

I meant to say something similar myself. Some kids come out very strong and switched on from bad experiences with family life.

He has been in jail,for mixing with wrong friends etc, it's a real shame and as a child he was so cute. But I don't blame him, I blame the fact he did not get his needs met as a child, poor guy.


I think you said it just fine. Smile

No telling what will happen once there's kids in the mix, but be damned if I'm going to allow myself to turn out like that.

A very strongly.. "Same here!" to your good and better attitude Smile

My Mum would treat my friends better than I, and be all over them if I took one to our house (hence I stopped doing so).


(This post was edited by rockie on Feb 24, 2009, 9:03 PM)


wonderwoman


Feb 18, 2009, 1:48 PM
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rockie wrote:
Thank you, and very true. Wow! to that last part, my parents won't even get near their grandchild (my child), I won't allow it. Fact they knew I was pregnant and had not bothered to contact me, just says a lot. They are all over and spoil my brothers children however. I do not care any more.

I am so sorry to hear this! No matter how tough you are, this still has to hurt! But it sounds as if you are doing the absolute right thing in your decisions. We all learn from our parents mistakes, and it sounds like you'll be a better mom for it!


rockie


Feb 18, 2009, 1:57 PM
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Re: [wonderwoman] View of couples who stay together for childs sake.. [In reply to]
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wonderwoman wrote:
rockie wrote:
Thank you, and very true. Wow! to that last part, my parents won't even get near their grandchild (my child), I won't allow it. Fact they knew I was pregnant and had not bothered to contact me, just says a lot. They are all over and spoil my brothers children however. I do not care any more.

I am so sorry to hear this! No matter how tough you are, this still has to hurt! But it sounds as if you are doing the absolute right thing in your decisions. We all learn from our parents mistakes, and it sounds like you'll be a better mom for it!

They've been in touch since this last post.. and better still want us to resolve things, can't argue with that. Not easy mind.


(This post was edited by rockie on Feb 24, 2009, 9:00 PM)


adatesman


Feb 18, 2009, 2:24 PM
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clausti


Feb 18, 2009, 3:34 PM
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Re: [adatesman] View of couples who stay together for childs sake.. [In reply to]
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adatesman wrote:

Do threads in the LR always take serious turns like this? I'm seeing a whole 'nother side of people here, and frankly its a welcome change from the usual RC prattle.

-a.

often. it's one of the reasons the powers that green often leave threads in here in place even when they're not really climbing related or female specific.

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