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roninthorne


Mar 12, 2009, 9:16 AM
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Route closures at Franklin  (North_America: United_States: West_Virginia: Roped_Climbing: Seneca_Rocks_Region: The_Panhandle: Franklin_Gorge)
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Due to intolerable damage and unreasonable impact demonstrating a complete lack of environmental awareness and/or respect for erosion control, trail building and replanting efforts by local and visiting climbers, the following climbs have been chopped or decommissioned for the foreseeable future:

1) Aloha aka Bircham's Other- hangers removed- can be led on gear... with runout
2) Wintermute- top anchors and 1st bolt hanger removed
3) No Stopping the Burn (R and L Variations)- Chopped
4) Castaways- top anchors removed
5) First Aid- top anchors removed
6) Eddie's Arete- top anchors removed- OLD ANCHOR (TREE) IS DEAD!!
7) Captain Hook- top anchor removed
8) Trident- top anchors removed- old face bolts to be replaced this summer
9) Anchors Away- top anchors removed
10) Super Amazing Sea Monkeys- top anchors and top hanger removed
11) Keelhauled- no anchor, all face bolt hangers removed- will be rebolted 6/09
12) Belly of the Whale- chopped
13) Skid Marks- top anchors removed

The majority of the damage occured on Sunday, March 8, 2009, when a large group over-ran this area with arrogant disregard for impact or repercussions. Mulched surfaces, erosion controls, and plants purchased out of pocket by a fixed-income volunteer and carried up from the parking area by visiting students from Vermont, were heavily damaged by foot traffic within an area that is bounded on two sides by well-built trails. It is ironic that restoration efforts which survived last summer's drought and this winter's heavy winds and storms were almost obliterated in a single day by a single ignorant group.

That this is a pathetic representation of our climbing community to landowners, the local NFS (for whom Franklin is a less-than-stellar picture of climber self-regulation), and the young climbers who worked so hard to repair previous damages, goes without saying. Apparently, the Leave No Trace ethic is unknown to those who so thoughtlessly damaged this area.

Unfortunately, they are not alone in this regard. Most groups seem oblivious to or unconcerned about the impact they leave behind, both on private and public lands, or the impressions they leave with non-climbers.

If you have complaints concerning this action, take them up with the (ir)responsible group(s). While it is a shame that the entire climbing community must suffer for the actions of a group of fools, the loss of a few climbs is far preferable to the loss of the entire crag.

Michael Gray, Franklin, WV March 11, 2009


TimePenguin


Mar 12, 2009, 10:43 AM
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Re: [roninthorne] Route closures at Franklin [In reply to]
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Mike,

You are a complete dickhead, and probably the most pathetic representation of our climbing community, climbers in general, and perhaps even the human race that i have ever had to deal with. You asked us to take up our complaints with the irresponsible parties, so that is exactly what I am doing. YOU, Mike, are the irresponsible one. You have absolutely no authority or jurisdiction in Franklin. It is not your land. You do not own it. You are not the most seasoned climber there. You are not the only steward. And yet you have, at least in your own warped mind, deemed yourself the renegade policeman and environmental authority on the area--even though mulch and non-indigenous plants are not even remotely environmentally sound practices in the first place.

It is hilarious that you even use the word "community" when you refuse to act as a part of or on behalf of any concept of community. You refuse to grant anyone else reasonable access to even speak or reason with the ACTUAL landowners who have authority on the land, and you clearly skew the information you do give them based on every bullshit post, warning, sign I've ever had to read with your name on it. You are also combative rather than cooperative with all of us who attempt to climb at Franklin amidst your constant over-surveilance and hastling. You have never offered a single CONSTRUCTIVE way to solve what you see as the problem, merely threats of chopping bolts that exceed your real authority in the area.

Your current solution is unacceptable for any number of reasons. Foremost, to take such drastic and counterproductive actions based on the actions of one group is ridiculous. If they did actually trample the area (which, based on past accounts, I have no reason to believe), then yes they are in the wrong and should know better, but you can't punish the entire community based on the actions of a few people we don't know, can't contact, and probably won't ever see at Franklin again. They won't learn a lesson, and the rest of us who are responsible didn't have a lesson to learn in the first place.

Perhaps more important, your actions have created an unsafe environment for those who do continue to climb. By only removing the top anchors, there is no indication from the ground that the climb is incomplete. This will lead even seasoned climbers to begin the climb and be forced later to look for anchors that no long exist, possibly making them climb higher looking for a run-out, or at the very least lowering from a single bolt probably at the expense of their own gear. While seasoned climbers can probably get out of such a situation, beginners and others are in danger of being greatly injured. Even chopping first bolts in addition won't deter some people with a stick clip or a braver lead-head from getting into the same situation. ANYONE who is injured at Frankin on any of these climbs is YOUR responsibility and yours alone, Mike. In your misguided and unauthorized attempt to teach a lesson--because it can't even be called an attempt to solve any recognized problem--you have put the safety, health, and even lives of your climbing community in jeopardy.

Do the climbing community and the area of Franklin a favor and LEAVE. You are the greatest obstacle in creating a more cooperative and beneficial climbing community in the area. You are the greatest hindrance to its proper maintenance. Your accusations are baseless, your cooperation nonexistent, and your actions detrimental to the safety of climbers and the proper stewardship of the area. STOP misusing authority that you don't even have in the first place to cause more damage and harm than good. Leave, dickhead Mike, leave. If you only understand your own brand of vigilante "justice," then one day very soon some of us will become so frustrated that we will be willing to oblige.


mike_devildog


Mar 12, 2009, 11:19 AM
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Re: [TimePenguin] Route closures at Franklin [In reply to]
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WORD..sounds like a fucking crag nazi!


IsayAutumn


Mar 12, 2009, 12:21 PM
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Re: [TimePenguin] Route closures at Franklin [In reply to]
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Great....so is it even worth going to Franklin now, if all of these routes are down? I was hoping to make a trip sometime end of March.

Who is this Mike man? Is he the one cutting the bolts and taking down anchors? Who made him Pope of this dump anyway?

It is a shame that a careless group of people had such poor ethics. Is it worth shutting down all of these climbs for it?


bandycoot


Mar 12, 2009, 12:27 PM
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Re: [roninthorne] Route closures at Franklin [In reply to]
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I don't know the specifics, but if you're just acting on your own to chop bolts that's weak. If you're going to talk about the community, who did you consult before taking action? Why "must" the community lose the cliff to protect the whole crag? Who was going to close the whole crag? We have a guy who does the same kinda single handed bolt chopping stuff here in San Diego. Truly a shame.... Everyone seems to lose.

By the way, it's complete BS that YOU chop the bolts and then tell people to take it up with the wayward group. Instead of knee jerk reaction, why don't you educate and work with problem groups? Put signs up that vegetation recovery is in progress. Most people will pay attention.

When it comes to Access, we need to take a long term constructive stance, not an over-reactive destructive stance.

Josh


Shonic


Mar 12, 2009, 12:27 PM
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Re: [mike_devildog] Route closures at Franklin [In reply to]
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Mike,

I have a couple of questions:

- What was your basis for chopping these particular routes?
- Any other routes we are to expect chopped any time soon?
- Will you continue choppin if we rebolt them?
- How long are we to expect you to continue vandalizing the area?
- Any other areas you are looking forward to "patronize"?

The climbing community would greatly appreciate your answers.
In reply to:


rjbonz


Mar 12, 2009, 12:38 PM
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Re: [roninthorne] Route closures at Franklin [In reply to]
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Mike, while I do not have all the information relevant to the destruction, and I personally do not know you, it is quite clear from this bulletin and the many e-mails I have received today that no one in the Community of Climbers was made aware of the situation. I do very much feel empathy for your frustration. A lot of work over the years has gone into Franklin for which deserves great praise. I love climbing at Franklin. At the same time, I do think that if at least a small group of climbers were conferred. a more reasonable, balanced and frankly better formulated solution could have been achieved; e.g., a letter of concern composed and sent to the guilty party along with a request for them to repair the damages they caused. Now a lot of Climbers are very upset and we have two situations to deal with: 1) how to deal with getting the destruction repaired, and 2) how to get these routes safe again. Do you have any productive recommendations on either?

Robert Borotkanics


justjessy


Mar 12, 2009, 12:52 PM
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Re: [roninthorne] Route closures at Franklin [In reply to]
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Mike,
You obviously care a lot about the area - but do you care about the climbing community, too? We all want to take care of the crag, why didn't you reach out to the community to help repair the damage done by the group last weekend?

You put a lot of time and effort into erosion controls and trailwork and it's frustrating to see hard work destroyed, but how is chopping bolts going to solve anything? Who knows if that big group will even be back to climb there ever. A better solution would be to have something like the Access Fund's effort last year to clean graffiti left by vandals at Franklin.

I agree with the others that chopping anchors puts climbers at risk, but it also spreads bad feeling through the community. People will feel less willing to cooperate with restoration efforts in the future. Unilateral action undermines the cohesion of the community, and weakens the power of the community's values in the long run.

I think the appropriate action is to take the matter to the Access Fund. I hope whomever can will help repair the damage that was done this week - to the trails AND to the climbs.


flatstateclimber


Mar 12, 2009, 2:01 PM
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Re: Route closures at Franklin [In reply to]
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I'm new(ish) to the area. It's ironic that while I was making the approach hike that very same Sunday with my crew of three that I was talking about the very same issues that Mike expresses his concern for. It was my first trip to Franklin, and frankly, I was glad to be outside. I've been to so-called afterwork crags before, the ones that seem to get little respect and probably deserve it more because they see that much more use.

What our discussion branched into was how many people are introduced into climbing at a gym, pulling on plastic these days. More often than not, their first trip outside is with fellow gym-dwellers that may or may not have a strong outdoor ethic or respect. It is even more important for the elders (read: more experienced climbers) to instruct them in this way.

Don't grumble about it after the fact. Do something about it while you can. While that person is in your vision, say something. Don't be a prick, but make your point well. If enough of us do that, it ought to sink in, or they'll quit climbing because they're tired of getting hassled. One way or the other we'll improve our crags: either through smarter climbers or attrition of the disrespectful ones.


oldhippywithdog


Mar 12, 2009, 2:51 PM
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Re: [roninthorne] Route closures at Franklin [In reply to]
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I am disgusted with the actions you have taken mike. I agree whole heartedly with posts so far suggesting your actions are rash, dangerous, irreverent, and counterproductive. I also agree that you are a greater hinderance to Franklin than an asset. Some one once replied to a post of yours suggesting 'honey catches more flies than vinegar' or something alone those lines. I would take this a step further and suggest that you are using rat poison.
You may have a very small group of very local people working very hard to keep franklin clean but YOU and your accusations and general hate are keeping the larger community from coming together at Franklin. Personally, a large reason I have not attended these clean ups is knowing you would be there.
I'd also like to point out that is not so simple for the majority of climbers to take off a day to drive 3 hours each way to clean up a crag we visit a few times a year. 6 hours travel, a day of labor, and dealing with a self-righteous, self-appointed "community leader"...what a day. Sign me up. Its amazing you expect anyone to help you accomplish your goals when all you do is yell at them and punish them. Most clean up organizers do everything in their power to make every clean up seem like a great time and a huge success so that the next one will be a great(er) time and a huge(r) success.

Honestly, good luck. I'd hate to see Franklin get closed but I think that you are traveling the most direct path to that end. Consider making the area a greater asset to the community if you want their help in sustaining access.


minibiter


Mar 12, 2009, 3:08 PM
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Re: [roninthorne] Route closures at Franklin [In reply to]
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Mike-

Chopping the top anchors without chopping the rest of the route is dangerous, and in the fairly likely event someone gets hurt from it, you're to blame. You know this, you know it's hard to see the rings from the bottom of most of those climbs, you know some of those climbs are pumpy and don't have great stances to clip the anchors from, and you know the falls from some of those anchors would have you on ledges or knocking heads with a roof at the bottom of a 30' whipper.

So if you're going to chop a route, chop the whole route so people can see it before they get into a dangerous situation.

Better yet, just stop. You're making it a dangerous pain in the ass to climb there and you're alienating a lot of people who might help with maintenance if you didn't piss them off. There's an old saying that you catch more flies with honey, and I see a lot more DDT coming from you than honey.

I hope no one gets hurt because of your bolt-stripping, but if they do, it'll be your fault. I wouldn't want that on my conscience.

Joe Thompson.


notapplicable


Mar 12, 2009, 5:06 PM
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Re: [minibiter] Route closures at Franklin [In reply to]
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First and foremost I should say that although I know why Mike took the actions he did, I disagree with his choice to modify routes instead of just walking away and letting Franklin (for better or worse) face it's future with out him. That said, a couple of points...


1. To everyone whos post started with "I don't know all be details but..." or "I'm new here but..." (which is most of you), your right. You don't know all the details of how this situation came about or the history of Mikes involvement with the crag. Just like everything else in life, nothing is black and white and this is no different. It might surprise you but Mike is not evil incarnate. Actually he's a pretty nice guy.


2. The Access Fund has expressed little interest in getting involved in Franklin and after promising aid for the last trail day (one of many organized and funded by Mike) they flaked out and didn't show up or even call to let people know they weren't coming. I would not count on them to swoop in and take over care of Franklin. If that crag is gonna see continual maintenance, it's going to have to come from the community


2. To those who are making a lot of noise about how dangerous it is for a route to be missing it's top anchors, that's total bullshit. If a person can not either safely fall from or accept the consequences of a fall from any position they climb themselves in to, they should not climb in to that position. I've pumped out and botched clips at a bunch of anchors, just about everyone has and if you haven't yet, you will soon enough. Doesn't matter if it's trad or sport, if you don't find the anchor situation you expected then you top out, down climb or take the ride. Simple as that.


notapplicable


Mar 12, 2009, 5:12 PM
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Re: [notapplicable] Route closures at Franklin [In reply to]
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Mike,


Just walk away man.

There are many a rarely traveled climbing oasis scattered through out WV. Go have fun and let Franklin find it's own fate.


flatstateclimber


Mar 12, 2009, 5:25 PM
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Re: [notapplicable] Route closures at Franklin [In reply to]
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notapplicable wrote:
1. To everyone whos post started with "I don't know all be details but..." or "I'm new here but..." (which is most of you), your right. You don't know all the details of how this situation came about or the history of Mikes involvement with the crag. Just like everything else in life, nothing is black and white and this is no different. It might surprise you but Mike is not evil incarnate. Actually he's a pretty nice guy.

Agreed. He was around on Sunday when we were winding up our day on Jump Start. He knew the woman I was climbing with and talked for quite a while with the other guy while I cleaned the route. I enjoyed his stories, as I do of most locals when I'm new to an area. That said, I stand by what I said about the large group in question and our responsibility to educate them about LNT ethics. I don't know if anything transpired between him and that group.

I'm not convinced that the public face that you see when you meet him and the anonymous bolt chopping Internet face are one and the same.


kovacs69


Mar 12, 2009, 6:10 PM
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Re: [roninthorne] Route closures at Franklin [In reply to]
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roninthorne wrote:
Due to intolerable damage and unreasonable impact demonstrating a complete lack of environmental awareness and/or respect for erosion control, trail building and replanting efforts by local and visiting climbers, the following climbs have been chopped or decommissioned for the foreseeable future:

1) Aloha aka Bircham's Other- hangers removed- can be led on gear... with runout
2) Wintermute- top anchors and 1st bolt hanger removed
3) No Stopping the Burn (R and L Variations)- Chopped
4) Castaways- top anchors removed
5) First Aid- top anchors removed
6) Eddie's Arete- top anchors removed- OLD ANCHOR (TREE) IS DEAD!!
7) Captain Hook- top anchor removed
8) Trident- top anchors removed- old face bolts to be replaced this summer
9) Anchors Away- top anchors removed
10) Super Amazing Sea Monkeys- top anchors and top hanger removed
11) Keelhauled- no anchor, all face bolt hangers removed- will be rebolted 6/09
12) Belly of the Whale- chopped
13) Skid Marks- top anchors removed

The majority of the damage occured on Sunday, March 8, 2009, when a large group over-ran this area with arrogant disregard for impact or repercussions. Mulched surfaces, erosion controls, and plants purchased out of pocket by a fixed-income volunteer and carried up from the parking area by visiting students from Vermont, were heavily damaged by foot traffic within an area that is bounded on two sides by well-built trails. It is ironic that restoration efforts which survived last summer's drought and this winter's heavy winds and storms were almost obliterated in a single day by a single ignorant group.

That this is a pathetic representation of our climbing community to landowners, the local NFS (for whom Franklin is a less-than-stellar picture of climber self-regulation), and the young climbers who worked so hard to repair previous damages, goes without saying. Apparently, the Leave No Trace ethic is unknown to those who so thoughtlessly damaged this area.

Unfortunately, they are not alone in this regard. Most groups seem oblivious to or unconcerned about the impact they leave behind, both on private and public lands, or the impressions they leave with non-climbers.

If you have complaints concerning this action, take them up with the (ir)responsible group(s). While it is a shame that the entire climbing community must suffer for the actions of a group of fools, the loss of a few climbs is far preferable to the loss of the entire crag.

Michael Gray, Franklin, WV March 11, 2009

For posterity.


notapplicable


Mar 12, 2009, 6:27 PM
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Re: [flatstateclimber] Route closures at Franklin [In reply to]
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flatstateclimber wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
1. To everyone whos post started with "I don't know all be details but..." or "I'm new here but..." (which is most of you), your right. You don't know all the details of how this situation came about or the history of Mikes involvement with the crag. Just like everything else in life, nothing is black and white and this is no different. It might surprise you but Mike is not evil incarnate. Actually he's a pretty nice guy.

Agreed. He was around on Sunday when we were winding up our day on Jump Start. He knew the woman I was climbing with and talked for quite a while with the other guy while I cleaned the route. I enjoyed his stories, as I do of most locals when I'm new to an area. That said, I stand by what I said about the large group in question and our responsibility to educate them about LNT ethics. I don't know if anything transpired between him and that group.


I agree with you that the duty of educating the new or misguided members of our community falls to the veterans. Thing is, Mike has been doing that for a long time now and it has just come to a boiling point. No, he has not always taken the best approach and he can be a bit too passionate and hard edged for his own good but that's just his way. I don't agree with everything he says and does but he has poured a lot of himself in to Franklin and we have all benefited from his work. Thats whats so disappointing about these bolt choppings. All that work is going to go to waste if access is jeopardized because of crag politics.



flatstateclimber wrote:
I'm not convinced that the public face that you see when you meet him and the anonymous bolt chopping Internet face are one and the same.


There is nothing anonymous about his "internet face". His full name and phone number are plastered all over this and other websites.


Shonic


Mar 12, 2009, 8:05 PM
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Re: [roninthorne] Route closures at Franklin [In reply to]
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Removing anchors is a criminal action similar to taking away a stop sign at the intersection. If anybody gets hurt because of this, I will be the first one to file a suite against you, Mike, because it will be your fault and maybe it will teach other raging lunatics. It's a personal loss for me not be able to climb in Franklin again, but I do not feel safe there while you, Mike, are lurking around.

What's the next action, chop the bolts and glue them back to pretend nothing happened?

Do you have kids? What would you feel if your 17 yo daughter that primarily climbs in the gym and does not have a gazillion years of experience got to the top to find out there were no anchors there? What would she do? What would her mother do to YOU if anything happened to her kid?

BURN IN HELL, MIKE


DrGoBig


Mar 12, 2009, 8:31 PM
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Re: [notapplicable] Route closures at Franklin [In reply to]
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I disagree with Mike's actions, but I think the goal here was to get our attention. I know that I spread the word, so I guess he succeeded.

Heres an interesting, quick analysis of the routes altered:

1) Aloha aka Bircham's Other- hangers removed- can be led on gear... with runout

Mike was part of a joint FA/bolting

2) Wintermute- top anchors and 1st bolt hanger removed

Mike was part of a joint FA/bolting

3) No Stopping the Burn (R and L Variations)- Chopped

Mike was part of a joint FA/bolting

4) Castaways- top anchors removed

This is a pretty well bolted 5.8 that everyone leads. Groups kinda set up base camp here and it bugs him because of impact... on rockclimbing.com:

Currently closed to climbing, Castaways is the standard group TR and first lead at Franklin. The incredible impact is obvious when you understand that the first bolt was once one move off the ground, and that the area across the trail was too thick with mountain laurel to walk through. Climb the pocketed face past 4 bolts to reach ring anchors.

5) First Aid- top anchors removed

The anchor was simply webbing on a tree with rings

6) Eddie's Arete- top anchors removed- OLD ANCHOR (TREE) IS DEAD!!

I guess the anchor had to be removed anyway if the tree was dead.

7) Captain Hook- top anchor removed

bolted by his friend Mike Fisher, Im guessing he had permission from FA to take it down

8) Trident- top anchors removed- old face bolts to be replaced this summer

I guess he plans to reopen this if he plans to rebolt the face bolts

9) Anchors Away- top anchors removed

he was part of a joint FA

10) Super Amazing Sea Monkeys- top anchors and top hanger removed

dont understand the logic on this one

11) Keelhauled- no anchor, all face bolt hangers removed- will be rebolted 6/09

plans to rebolt it I guess

12) Belly of the Whale- chopped

he did FA

13) Skid Marks- top anchors removed

was a trad climb with anchors, dont understand the logic on this one

So 5 of the 13 routes he has FA on.

1 route was bolted by Mike Fisher, and maybe Mike Gray got the okay from him. Just guessing though...

1 route had a bum anchor on a bad tree that was taken down.

2 routes will be replaced with new gear this Summer.

I believe that Mike views Castaways as a source of trail erosion, large groups setting base camp up, etc. These are some of the things that bothered him most, so I see his reasoning.

Removing the anchors to First Aid consists of removing webbing from a tree.

2 of the routes seemed random.

Besides those two routes, it seems as if there is some method to the closures. It seems like he tried to make the biggest impact to make a statement while mostly closing his own routes, a couple routes that he saw groups camping out in front of (Castaways/First Aid), and a few routes that need upgrades. Finally, there were a couple routes that seemed random.

Let me reiterate that I'm not a fan of the closures, but for me, a tangential ethical question is raised. Mike has stated that he has permission from the landlord to chop all the routes at Franklin (which I hope he does not do.) For almost half of the routes he altered he was part of the FA/bolting. At other crags, without similar background issues, is it normally considered ethical for the FAist to do anything he pleases with the route/bolts after establishing the route?

(This post was edited by DrGoBig on Mar 12, 2009, 8:49 PM)


notapplicable


Mar 12, 2009, 9:06 PM
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Shonic wrote:
Removing anchors is a criminal action similar to taking away a stop sign at the intersection. If anybody gets hurt because of this, I will be the first one to file a suite against you, Mike, because it will be your fault and maybe it will teach other raging lunatics. It's a personal loss for me not be able to climb in Franklin again, but I do not feel safe there while you, Mike, are lurking around.

What's the next action, chop the bolts and glue them back to pretend nothing happened?

Do you have kids? What would you feel if your 17 yo daughter that primarily climbs in the gym and does not have a gazillion years of experience got to the top to find out there were no anchors there? What would she do? What would her mother do to YOU if anything happened to her kid?

BURN IN HELL, MIKE

Your so full of shit. There are plenty of good arguments against Mikes actions, this is not one.

If a person is leading a route then they are at risk of taking a fall at any point during the climb, including while face to face with the anchor. If someone finds an anchor missing they either top out and sling a tree, top out and walk off, down climb or jump and take a lead fall. Non of which are a big deal at all. They carry with them no greater risk than the climbing that lead to the missing anchors.

I mean honestly, how is a person gonna get anymore hurt while falling from the prior location of an anchor, than falling while trying to clip an anchor that is in place.


WVUCLMBR


Mar 13, 2009, 6:32 AM
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Thanks Mike, I was completely burnout on rc.com, but this thread has made me realize that wading thru the pool of rc bs is sometimes worth it.

So WVUCLMBR is back, I'm gonna be less talkative, but I'll be around.

And yes Adatesman, I know I still owe you a Coopers big wall documentary.

Oh, and Franklin sucks, so I could really give 2 shytes less what you chop.

Bryan...


mwunder424


Mar 13, 2009, 7:23 AM
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Wow... You could try to disagree with some class. Have you ever helped fix a trail, lay the stone, clean up trash/dead goats or fund the development.... or did you simply take? - Like so many others.... Mike did not take... even now he is not taking away, he is trying to prevent it from all being lost.

Yes he can be gruff, but you obviously are no gentleman either.

When have you contributed?


flatstateclimber


Mar 13, 2009, 7:36 AM
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notapplicable wrote:
I agree with you that the duty of educating the new or misguided members of our community falls to the veterans. Thing is, Mike has been doing that for a long time now and it has just come to a boiling point. No, he has not always taken the best approach and he can be a bit too passionate and hard edged for his own good but that's just his way. I don't agree with everything he says and does but he has poured a lot of himself in to Franklin and we have all benefited from his work. Thats whats so disappointing about these bolt choppings. All that work is going to go to waste if access is jeopardized because of crag politics.

I misspoke. I know he's not being anonymous. Perhaps confrontational versus the friendly guy I met on Sunday. My first impression of him was a good one. The next thing I hear is this, less than a week after my first trip to Franklin. So while I was still on a high from that outing, I was brought back down. I don't have the knowledge of the area or the history to make any judgments about anyone. I'll be more than happy to help out with a trail day, but I live three hours away and cannot come during the work week to do so.


Shonic


Mar 13, 2009, 7:54 AM
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I suppose you don't have teenage climbers in the house...

I can give you several scenarios that while being annoying but a matter of fact no problem situation for an experienced outdoor climber, the similar - no anchors found - situation can be deadly for a gymrat teen. I climbed for 25 years all over the world. Not having top anchors is a ridiculous way to spoil the climb for seasoned athletes and possibly a death trap for newbies. Climb out in Franklin is not too bad, but might lead to a serious fall, trying to recover your gear and not loose a quickdraw is another issue. How many falls occurred when unexperienced climbers tried to leave a small sling and got lowered to death or injury when they threaded the rope straight through the sling? or design a "system" to pull the rope through? Or using and old quickdraw that was left behind by another party? it all sounds stupid I bet for a macho like you. But knowingly, without any valid reasons creating situations like that is a crime. In my books. Having a psycho like Mike running around "policing" a small crag is developing from being plain ridiculous into rather dangerous.


keegan540


Mar 13, 2009, 8:06 AM
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Re: [roninthorne] Route closures at Franklin [In reply to]
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All I see is a bunch of people bitching about someone chopping their own routes to reduce the damage being done to an area of Franklin. Mike has every right to chop routes he put up. I hear a lot of spouting off about not having the right to chop routes and having to protect your gym climbing daughter. For starters if you're not able to rescue yourself from a sticky situation (no top anchor) than you shouldn't be climbing without a more experienced mentor. Second, and this one pertains to most of the whiners, if you've never lifted a finger at a crag or spent time and money bolting routes then shut the hell up. Mike has put up a lot of routes for other people to enjoy. He is far from a crag nazi. One small section of routes has been closed, big deal. Go climb the other 50 routes he has put up. Or better yet, go to Franklin, do some FA's, and then wait for the busloads to come and tear them up. We'll see how long it takes you to start bitching. Mike is a great asset to our community and without his hard work and efforts there would be no Franklin. All of you whiners would have to stay with your daughters in the gym.

Rock on Mike, Tall Brian has me pumped up on some new routes so I'm sure I'll see you later.

Keegan


(This post was edited by keegan540 on Mar 13, 2009, 8:13 AM)


TimePenguin


Mar 13, 2009, 8:12 AM
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Re: [mwunder424] Route closures at Franklin [In reply to]
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Just making sure your question was directed specifically at me before I get into the specifics of the three trail days I attended specifically at Franklin (which, as one other poster pointed out, involves driving 3 hours each way, and which I also stopped attending primarily because I couldn't tolerate even a few hours in Mike's presence); the 20+ other trail maintenance projects I've helped with around MD and VA; the 5 or 6 trail days I've organized independently; and the 5 years I spent as a guide where I taught LNT and outdoor ethics almost as adamantly as climbing skills and safety.

Also, Mike did take. He chopped bolts. Taking off hangers is one thing, but chopping bolts for anything other than safety reasons is environmentally unforgivable. NOTHING about climbing is more damaging to the environment than physically drilling into the rock. Not even years of trail use (or misuse). Thats why, e.g. in Red Rocks there is a $300 PER BOLT fine for unauthorized bolting. I'm primarily a sport climber, so I'd never suggest bolting on the whole is bad, but it should be done minimally. Clearly, chopping a good bolt to prove a point and then putting in another one a few feet away weeks or months later is irresponsible and hypocritical if the goal is to promote environmental awareness.

I am a gentleman 99% of the time, but my tolerance wears thin when someone oversteps their bounds repeatedly and takes actions that are both contradictory to their supposed goals and unsafe for others. His intentions aside, Mike's actions and gruff demeanor make him a poor steward for Franklin, a negative force in creating a sense of climbing community there, and a terrible representation of the climbing ethic as a whole.


naitch


Mar 13, 2009, 8:18 AM
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I ‘ll add my 2 cents. Get ready for a ramble... I’ve been going to Franklin for about 8 years, however I usually only hit it up once in the spring and once in the fall. The whole sport scene is not my thing. There seems to be a whole different mind set that goes along with the testosterone driven, gym climbing, group social atmosphere that is more common in the sport world. I climb, in part, to get away from that whole scene. So, given that’s my bias…read on.

1) I don’t agree with partially altering a route. If a route is going to be altered/chopped, do it in a way that it’s clear from the bottom of the climb. I agree with Bryan that if a person gets on a route, they should be ready for whatever, including missing top anchors. HOWEVER, it only leads to more contention and disharmony within the climbing community to do it in a way that not obvious. If an accident happens it threatens the access of the whole community. If it's going to be done, then make it clear from the get go. In my way of viewing things it is ethically wrong/”dishonest” to remove top anchors with no indication that they are missing.

2) There are lots of different angles to consider in the ethics of a “public” climbing area in relation to altering routes, even if one feels they have the “right” to do so because they were partly or solely responsible for putting it up. My question would be "What leads to the desired long term end result and the most harmony within the community?" This may yield a different answer than just saying, “F#$k’m, I put it up, I have the right to do whatever I want with it.” In our highly individualistic society (especially climbers), trying to promote group ethos and harmony is a challenge, to say the least. Climbers by nature are highly individualistic people. I know Mike has tried, but sometimes it has been a very a mis-directed very individualistic approach to trying to promote group responsibility and harmony. There are better ways…

3) I sympathize with Mike’s sentiments (and his work) in relation to tying keep up the place and preserve it. I disagree with his methods - both attitudes/words and actions. We need to work at finding a way to promote group consensus and responsibility. Easily stated, hard to do in the real world and maybe "consensus" is an oxymoron in the climbing world... However, maybe there are also approaches that haven't been tried and need to be.

4) I happened to be there Sunday climbing with one of my occasional climbing partners. I just happened to have picked the one wrong “pre-Spring” day to be there. There were tons of people. I didn’t see Mike (Gray) but did meet his climbing partner Mike Fisher for the first time and had a great discussion with him about the area, new routes, etc. I was shocked to find out yesterday that Gray had chopped/altered the routes as he mentioned above. There has got to be a new group awareness, responsibility, etc. if Franklin is going to continue to be a viable place to climb. This means some letting go on Mike’s part instead of “ruling” over the area like a dictator, as well as much more awareness by the general climbing public regarding upkeep, climbing ethic, and issues. I can imagine Mike maybe saying, “Yeah, right!? Been there, done that…” However, I don’t see the current way working and it is probably more of a detriment in the long run than just a hands off approach.

5) I am totally against large groups using the area. The Syracuse group needs to tread lightly and be informed of the issues and impact they have and re-think their approach (as well as other groups - i.e. DC, Pittsburgh, Richmond, etc.) . I would suggest that people not show up in groups larger than 4. Can’t be reinforced, but it could become a stated “rule” that it’s uncool to “gang-bang” the place as Mike put it. If that’s what groups want, stay in the gym. That goes for Seneca as well. Yes, it's cool to be a part of a large group that goes and does things together, but that mindset (to me) is totally against a responsible outdoor preservation ethic. No it’s not a wilderness area, but large groups certainly don’t help create an atmosphere that is conducive to enjoying nature.

6) I guess all this has reinforced even more why I prefer trad even though some of the same type issues can plague it also. Maybe next time I show up at Franklin it will be with my full trad rack looking for lines not normally climbed and if wanting to do a route beyond my trad ability then set a natural and/or gear TR if the anchors have been chopped/removed. I have done that in the past and if top anchors are being removed that may be the only alternative. There's also ways to get to the top of most climbs without climbing if you're creative.

7) It’s probably totally impossible to get away from all the issues because of the nature of the place and the type of climbers that frequent it. I enjoy climbing in all its forms, however I have to say that I have less in common with the attitudes and egos that I see displayed more in the bouldering and sport climbing worlds. I would highly recommend that people read and take to heart some of the attitudes and philosophy of climbing from old timers such as Pat Ament who have learned through a life-time of climbing. Any of his writings, but especially "Everything That Matters: remembering Rock Climbing" (especially the following two chapters: Humility and the Still Moment: The Magic of Baker Armstrong" and "A Soul is the Song of its Own Time: On the Individual and Competition"). We have much to learn from the wisdom of those who have gone before us. If we don't learn from history we're bound to repeat it...

YMMV

Craig Spaulding


(This post was edited by naitch on Mar 14, 2009, 7:56 AM)


DrGoBig


Mar 13, 2009, 9:00 AM
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Re: [keegan540] Route closures at Franklin [In reply to]
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"All I see is a bunch of people bitching about someone chopping their own routes to reduce the damage being done to an area of Franklin."

To set the record straight for the conversation, they were not all his routes. However, as I said before, there seems to be a method to choosing some of the additional routes.

"Mike has every right to chop routes he put up."

Is this really true? Does a FAist really "own" a route forever, or are they given to the climbing community? Some of these lines are obvious. Are we going to have different bolts or bolt holes for every person/city/club/whatever to climb on? If someone restores the routes will they be rechopped?

Trying to respectfully discuss... lemme know what you guys think.


(This post was edited by DrGoBig on Mar 13, 2009, 9:43 AM)


keegan540


Mar 13, 2009, 9:14 AM
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Re: [DrGoBig] Route closures at Franklin [In reply to]
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DrGoBig wrote:
All I see is a bunch of people bitching about someone chopping their own routes to reduce the damage being done to an area of Franklin.

To set the record straight for the conversation, they were not all his routes. However, as I said before, there seems to be a method to altering some of the additional routes.

You are correct, most FA's were joint ascents but as you pointed out he did aid in putting up many of these routes. And I agree with you about the method. The small area from Castaways to the corner past Trident has been closed. This area has been a point of contention for Mike on trail destruction for some time now. I agree with you about why some of the routes were altered as well, dead trees and old webbing anchors needed to be removed. As well as any anchors/bolts of poor condition.

Mike has every right to chop routes he put up.

Is this really true? Does a FAist really "own" a route forever, or are they given to the climbing community? Some of these lines are obvious. Are we going to have different bolts or bolt holes for every person/city/club/whatever to climb on? If someone restores the routes will they be rechopped?

I only make this statement because in our community the FA is given the respect to make decisions on routes he/she has established. Now chopping a route may be a bit extreme, but where do we draw the line? As for the extra bolts, I see the point, but it's the same issue. It's all ethics, and how do we as climbers (not landowners) make the decision on what gets bolted and what doesn't?

Trying to respectfully discuss... lemme know what you guys think.
I agree, I'll keep my negative bs to myself, doesn't really help anyway.


(This post was edited by keegan540 on Mar 13, 2009, 9:21 AM)


lodi5onu


Mar 13, 2009, 12:31 PM
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Re: [TimePenguin] Route closures at Franklin [In reply to]
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Spot on post Timepenguin.

not much to add besides it is sad that franklin was so unlucky as to have a narcisstic, self righteous, self-proclaimed misanthropic shithead become the steward


notapplicable


Mar 13, 2009, 1:40 PM
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WVUCLMBR wrote:
Thanks Mike, I was completely burnout on rc.com, but this thread has made me realize that wading thru the pool of rc bs is sometimes worth it.

So WVUCLMBR is back, I'm gonna be less talkative, but I'll be around.

And yes Adatesman, I know I still owe you a Coopers big wall documentary.

Oh, and Franklin sucks, so I could really give 2 shytes less what you chop.

Bryan...

Getting bored now that football seasons over eh?Wink

Welcome back.


notapplicable


Mar 13, 2009, 1:50 PM
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Re: [TimePenguin] Route closures at Franklin [In reply to]
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TimePenguin wrote:
His intentions aside, Mike's actions and gruff demeanor make him a poor steward for Franklin, a negative force in creating a sense of climbing community there...

This I pretty much agree with.

Problem is, who is going to take his place? Do you know anyone with the right combination of proximity, passion and knowledge to take on the responsibility of maintaining Franklin?

Someone is going to have to do it because WV doesn't have a climbing coalition that will, no government funds and oversight to get it done and the land owner damn sure isn't/shouldn't have to. What's the solution?


notapplicable


Mar 13, 2009, 2:24 PM
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Re: [naitch] Route closures at Franklin [In reply to]
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naitch wrote:
1) I don’t agree with partially altering a route. If a route is going to be altered/chopped, do it in a way that it’s clear from the bottom of the climb. I agree with Bryan that if a person gets on a route, they should be ready for whatever, including missing top anchors. HOWEVER, it only leads to more contention and disharmony within the climbing community to do it in a way that not obvious. If an accident happens it threatens the access of the whole community. If it's going to be done, then make it clear from the get go. In my way of viewing things it is ethically wrong/”dishonest” to remove top anchors with no indication that they are missing.

I'm with you 100% on this. I think that if temporary closures are going to be made, all the hangers should be pulled but the studs left in place. If a route is going to be chopped, it should be chopped all the way up.

It just bothers me to see people running around with their hair on fire and crying that people are gonna die just because anchors are missing. It doesn't even make sense. At a place like Franklin where most of the routes end right at the top of the cliff, all removing the anchor does is prevent people from top roping the route. Anyone can still lead it, anchor to a tree with the rope and belay from above. What he's done is shut down the top rope gang banging.


(This post was edited by notapplicable on Mar 13, 2009, 7:36 PM)


thatstoohigh


Mar 13, 2009, 5:21 PM
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Re: [roninthorne] Route closures at Franklin [In reply to]
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WOW! You are an asshole and passive aggressive at that... If you really had an issue with a group of people climbing at a Crag that you yourself do not own then you should TALK to them... not chop the bolts! That's dangerous and irresponsible and you have no right bolting, chopping, or for that matter even climbing with that attitude...

Burn in hell!


roninthorne


Mar 14, 2009, 8:22 AM
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Thanks, keegan... see ya elsewhere, or on some of the other 117 routes at Franklin.

That's right, folks... there are still over 100 routes at Franklin, but you're crying because the only person to ever make the effort to meet the landowners and maintain the hardware without the support of a national organization removed 12 of the shortest routes at the crag, two of which I bolted in the first place. Do you think I liked chopping the first route I ever bolted there?

If so, you better go.... the short bus is waiting...

Not applicable- you just stick to figuring out how you and the rest of the real estate developers can cover Nelson with tract houses and condos and cater to al these pussies. Your condemnation amounts to nothing more or less than a PR investment in the improbable point at which you can buy the place.

For the rest of ya- yep, I'm a monster... the monster who took the time and touble to meet the folks on whose land you so self-righteously tresspass and bring your dogs. Do any of you realize that, if not for my direct intervention and intense work with the various landowners, Franklin would likely have been shut down over ten years ago, when a visiting climber told one of said landowners to get out of "his" campsite when that landowner simply asked him to reduce the size of his fire during a period of extreme forest fire danger?

Have any of YOU even bothered to try to find out who owns the place?

Have any of YOU even bothered to spend a dime at the store RIGHT BESIDE THE ENTRANCE, supporting local businesses and meeting local people, instead of coming here in your hybrids and groups and sneering in unjustified superiority at the locals (quite a few of whom fled the beltway generations ago... something none of you have the guts or sense to do)?

Yep, I am a monster... one who shits on the couragous condemnations you make from the far side of the keyboard. After well over a decade of trying to educate and cooperate with self-entitled climbers, I decided that there had been enough talk, because no one was really listening.

Well, I see I have your attention now.....

I fully intend to not only return these routes to functionality, but to also replace as many of the old bolts as possible, on my own time, with my own tools. No free waterbottles, T-shirts, or front-page interviews on RC.com or any other sites for the guy who keeps YOU climbing at Franklin. It will happen, because I gave my word to people I respect that I would do so, and no matter what you internet heroes think or say, I'll do it my way. I understand that, bhind al the rhtoric of endangerment and Mike-bashing, what you're most pissed off about is that it just isn't going to happen on anyone's timetable but my own. Too fucking bad....

Don't like my attitude? Try going it alone, using funds out of your own pocket and dedicating time that could have been spent with family and friends instead repairing the damage of hundreds of irresponsible "visitors".

Try listening to a decade and more of happy, self-congratulatory PR for the AF while doing the work there without any support from the hundreds of Access Fund members who climbed there without a thought to it being private land or to maintaining trails and hardware until a non-member, ME, finally put together an attempt to get everyone involved in the fight to keep the place functional.

So what if you drive three hours to get there? I've flown across the US and done trailwork there, during holidays I could have been spending with my family or cranking at other crags. That's what you do when you give your word, kiddies.

You claim how hard it is to put up with my personality or attitude. You're all so aggro when online, but you're such incredible pussies that you cling to the excuse of some 45-yr-old man with an artificial knee and a bad back being the reason you can't come and do trailwork? Even when you show up and I'm not there?

Lame, limp-dick, sag-ass posers, the lot of ya.

If you spent half the energy working on the trails that you do dissing me and making excuses why you can't and it's my fault, I'd never need to do any work at Franklin.

What's funniest is that half of you would lick John Sherman's bag just to shake his hand and get hinm to autograph your copy of Stone Crusade... and his attitudes are exactly the same as mine. Before he sold out to the mining industry, he was one of my heroes, along with Ed Abbey and Mark Wilford and a lot of the other guys you don't hear about anymore because they didn't give two shits what the world thought of them if they were determined to do what is right.

If who I am or what I've done pisses you off so badly, come on out to Franklin for the next traildays in June, and express your outrage in person.

Or admit that, unlke me, you're all talk, just a hot, sphincter-scented breeze blowing through the internet and across the forums of RC.com...


DrGoBig


Mar 14, 2009, 9:32 AM
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Mike, I don't think most people who know anything about Franklin doubt that you have put a lot of effort into Franklin over the years.

Is the point of the route altering, in fact, to raise awareness?

If so, whats the solution? I think you want climbers at Franklin to closely follow these guidelines:

1) Don't bring your dog to Franklin

2) Be wary of impact - don't wander off trail and limit group sizes

3) Be respectful of the locals/landowners - buy your stuff at the store outside Franklin to support local business and make sure you dont park in front of the landowners' access road

4) More people need to come to trailwork days

5) Tell your friends and other people at Franklin about the previous 4 things

Anything else to add?


notapplicable


Mar 15, 2009, 8:06 PM
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roninthorne wrote:
Not applicable- you just stick to figuring out how you and the rest of the real estate developers can cover Nelson with tract houses and condos and cater to al these pussies. Your condemnation amounts to nothing more or less than a PR investment in the improbable point at which you can buy the place.

Damn Mike, you sure are a hard one.

I would ask you to go back and read my posts to this thread and all the others where Franklin was the subject at hand. Agreeing with and defending you on a bunch of points and disagreeing with you on a few others does not amount to "condemnation". People are gonna disagree in life, unlike most other people in this thread I have tried to do so respectfully but your tendency not to act in kind is what makes you less than ideally suited to act as public liaison in these matters.

That is not a personal attack, I like you as a person. It's just that you have a tendency to try and guilt and berate people in to doing the right thing and getting rather pissed off when it doesn't work. It's kind of like giving a person with extreme ADD the job of legal secretary or an agoraphobic a public speaking engagement. Not really the best pairing.

roninthorne wrote:
If who I am or what I've done pisses you off so badly, come on out to Franklin for the next traildays in June, and express your outrage in person.

Or admit that, unlke me, you're all talk, just a hot, sphincter-scented breeze blowing through the internet and across the forums of RC.com...

This pretty much highlights my point. What other individual (other than yourself) donated more money to last springs trail building and rebolting efforts than I did? Go ask Mike F. what I told him about the use of the money. I didn't care what you used it for, bolts, food for trail day, equipment or as simple compensation for your time invested in hardware replacement. Then I PM'd you about signing up for the Yahoo group so that I could donate to the fall efforts but at the time you said there were to be no more trail days.

Now you attack me for respectfully disagreeing with you on some points and suggesting that if all this is causing you as much anxiety as it appears to be, maybe you should wash you hands of Franklin. I'll just say this, much of your outrage and indignation is justified but in this case, it is very much misdirected.

I'd still like to know how donations are being made now that trail days are back on because it's not about you or me or any other individual. If you guys are gonna be out there rebolting and building trails I'd like to help cover the cost of that work and I will continue to do the clean up I normally do when ever I come through Franklin.



Respect and thanks,

Bryan


roninthorne


Mar 16, 2009, 10:19 AM
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Well, well, well....

First, DrGoBig- Bingo.

Not app- you swing back and forth between stroking and backstabbing so fast that I'm starting to chafe on both sides, k? With friends like thee, Judas...

Do I own the climbs? Nope... just the hardware... which is all I've taken away. Belly of the Whale needed rebolting... or did you like the added spice of almost 2" of projecting stud possibly snapping your carabiner or digging a nice groove in your flesh in the event of a fall?

Keelhauled used a tree that is presently decomposing at the base for an anchor, and was put up with bolts that had since rusted almost in half. Both will be restored, and Keelhauled will actually end at seperate anchors, instead of stemming right to reach BOTW's.

Some of the top anchor bolts (like the one on constantly gang-raped Castaways) snapped off with only a quarter-turn of the ratchet while I was attempting to loosen them. Despite the abuse here, I'm glad that you, your gymby friends, or your seventeen year old daughter didn't discover this weakness while toproping or lowering from a lead.

(Interesting strategy, BTW- threatening to me while informing an unknown host of internet predators that you might have a teen daughter who travels without you and is actually that stupid... sounds like her biggest danger is Daddy's flapping piehole and failure to teach her to read rock before tossing her out into the real world.)

Those bolts will be replaced by yours truly and by Mike Fisher. He's the very laid-back Mike that many of you are confusing me, the monster asshole dickhead- all terms that, in the Universal Translator, come out as "Someone so unconcerned about being popular and sucking up to the dig-ME scene that he's willing to take a stand." Don't do Mr. Fisher such a disservice as taking out your frustrated angst on him.. he has said many times that it ain't his fight, and is the Dr. Goodwhack who originally said to me that the lot of ya wasn't worth rope nor water. He just won't waste the time to say it to you in person, and listen to all this chin music and jaw-jacking.

The rock belongs to the folks who purchased it... or are you now going to rationalize about how they don't own it either, especially if you want to climb on it. Self-entitlement is so interesting....

After days of watching (and laughing like hell at) the spectacle of a group so determined to avoid the question of who among you fucked things up in the first place (and I'm sure that some of the responsible parties are the loudest protesters), and listening to the repeatedly rationalizations that you "can't do trailwork (even when I'm not around) because of (my) bad attitude" (I, like the Shadow, apparently have the power to cloud men's minds... not to mention shrinking their already tiny cajones to the size of hydrogen molecules), I've gotta conclude that the majority of you have no interest in finding the culprits when you can join the mob shouting "Burn him... he's a witch!"

(Sorry.... you're actually far more stupid than anything I've ever seen on Monthy Python, and using one of their lines to caricature you is actually a disservice to that fine comic troupe.)

Hell, that ass-suck lodi-whatthfinever admitted doesn't do trailwork or bring a dog to the crag and still had the colossal stupidity to give me shit about being over the top in my stances on those topics.

"I don't stand for anything or anyone but me, Mike! And why should I when I can get so much done on my knees or on all fours? Why do you crag guys have to be so extreme?"

Added to this the fact that I am repeatedly being told how I "should have done" things like posting signs, putting up barriers, talking to groups, contacting gyms/schools or those steadfast defenders of your right to bring your dog to the crag, the Access Fund- every one of which I have tried, repeatedly, for the last decade and more- ANYTHING to keep from inconveniencing those of you making a living off my hard work or unable to climb anything harder than a toproped 5.8... well, some further conclusions become inevitable.

Since damned few of you are worth the effort, I'm giving you what you want. Franklin is all yours... and you'd best believe that the landowners will learn that in the next 24 hours. The upshot is that YOU HAVE NO MORE EXCUSES. Talk is cheap... if the Big Bad Mike is gone, now what are you going to use to rationalize your failure to balance freedom with responsibility? Either you will now do trailwork, on your own or in groups, or you and all your little posse will have to admit that all those excuses were just that- EXCUSES.

Personally, I don't expect to hear anything new from Mr. Fisher in the way of volunteers... but I could be wrong. I have been before... when I thought that more than 10% of climbers from outside WV might be at least 1% smarter and more responsible than the lacquer-huffing, bottle-breaking inbreeds who trash the parking lot on a regular basis.

It's all yours, kiddies. Look for the next area to open up in the not too distant future... and look for my name controlling access to ALL the private land where the biggest and best climbs are there, as well as having already been in communication with the NFS, DNR, and DOT about soon-to-come impact, resource problems and abuses on the public lands adjoining.

You will NOT make another Franklin.


Incidentally- if you think you're going to sue me, you apparently haven't taken a look at what carpenters earn in this part of the world, or paid any attention to the economic crisis engulfing this contry. Not surprising... most of you sound lke hard-core Rush Limbaugh fans, and denial is your main food group. I have about $2,000 (original retail value) in very used climbing gear, tech clothing, and related back copies of magazines, about another $2,000 in heavily-used construction tools, and a few bucks in the bank (I've used most of my $$ to pay for costs of traildays and the previous work/replacements, remember?)

Since you'd likely sue me for some astronomical figure, and include the cost of your lawyers, I'd really have no option but to kill you, instead, once I got a look at you in court and had my court-appointed attorney find out your home address. Not sure how, but I'd probably be able to figure something out while you were hunched over your computer, pounding pud with one hand while spewing vitriol on some other deserving asshole, or rabidly replying to this post.

Finally, re: offers of "vigilante" responses... BULLSHIT! You wouldn't have the courage to give me a harsh look when we meet, binky, and you know it.

Do what ya like, say what ya like about me or my routes. I can still use a few more laughs.


mojomonkey


Mar 16, 2009, 10:55 AM
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roninthorne wrote:
Well, well, well....

First, DrGoBig- Bingo.

Not app- you swing back and forth between stroking and backstabbing so fast that I'm starting to chafe on both sides, k? With friends like thee, Judas...

Do I own the climbs? Nope... just the hardware... which is all I've taken away. Belly of the Whale needed rebolting... or did you like the added spice of almost 2" of projecting stud possibly snapping your carabiner or digging a nice groove in your flesh in the event of a fall?

Keelhauled used a tree that is presently decomposing at the base for an anchor, and was put up with bolts that had since rusted almost in half. Both will be restored, and Keelhauled will actually end at seperate anchors, instead of stemming right to reach BOTW's.

Some of the top anchor bolts (like the one on constantly gang-raped Castaways) snapped off with only a quarter-turn of the ratchet while I was attempting to loosen them. Despite the abuse here, I'm glad that you, your gymby friends, or your seventeen year old daughter didn't discover this weakness while toproping or lowering from a lead.

(Interesting strategy, BTW- threatening to me while informing an unknown host of internet predators that you might have a teen daughter who travels without you and is actually that stupid... sounds like her biggest danger is Daddy's flapping piehole and failure to teach her to read rock before tossing her out into the real world.)

Those bolts will be replaced by yours truly and by Mike Fisher. He's the very laid-back Mike that many of you are confusing me, the monster asshole dickhead- all terms that, in the Universal Translator, come out as "Someone so unconcerned about being popular and sucking up to the dig-ME scene that he's willing to take a stand." Don't do Mr. Fisher such a disservice as taking out your frustrated angst on him.. he has said many times that it ain't his fight, and is the Dr. Goodwhack who originally said to me that the lot of ya wasn't worth rope nor water. He just won't waste the time to say it to you in person, and listen to all this chin music and jaw-jacking.

The rock belongs to the folks who purchased it... or are you now going to rationalize about how they don't own it either, especially if you want to climb on it. Self-entitlement is so interesting....

After days of watching (and laughing like hell at) the spectacle of a group so determined to avoid the question of who among you fucked things up in the first place (and I'm sure that some of the responsible parties are the loudest protesters), and listening to the repeatedly rationalizations that you "can't do trailwork (even when I'm not around) because of (my) bad attitude" (I, like the Shadow, apparently have the power to cloud men's minds... not to mention shrinking their already tiny cajones to the size of hydrogen molecules), I've gotta conclude that the majority of you have no interest in finding the culprits when you can join the mob shouting "Burn him... he's a witch!"

(Sorry.... you're actually far more stupid than anything I've ever seen on Monthy Python, and using one of their lines to caricature you is actually a disservice to that fine comic troupe.)

Hell, that ass-suck lodi-whatthfinever admitted doesn't do trailwork or bring a dog to the crag and still had the colossal stupidity to give me shit about being over the top in my stances on those topics.

"I don't stand for anything or anyone but me, Mike! And why should I when I can get so much done on my knees or on all fours? Why do you crag guys have to be so extreme?"

Added to this the fact that I am repeatedly being told how I "should have done" things like posting signs, putting up barriers, talking to groups, contacting gyms/schools or those steadfast defenders of your right to bring your dog to the crag, the Access Fund- every one of which I have tried, repeatedly, for the last decade and more- ANYTHING to keep from inconveniencing those of you making a living off my hard work or unable to climb anything harder than a toproped 5.8... well, some further conclusions become inevitable.

Since damned few of you are worth the effort, I'm giving you what you want. Franklin is all yours... and you'd best believe that the landowners will learn that in the next 24 hours. The upshot is that YOU HAVE NO MORE EXCUSES. Talk is cheap... if the Big Bad Mike is gone, now what are you going to use to rationalize your failure to balance freedom with responsibility? Either you will now do trailwork, on your own or in groups, or you and all your little posse will have to admit that all those excuses were just that- EXCUSES.

Personally, I don't expect to hear anything new from Mr. Fisher in the way of volunteers... but I could be wrong. I have been before... when I thought that more than 10% of climbers from outside WV might be at least 1% smarter and more responsible than the lacquer-huffing, bottle-breaking inbreeds who trash the parking lot on a regular basis.

It's all yours, kiddies. Look for the next area to open up in the not too distant future... and look for my name controlling access to ALL the private land where the biggest and best climbs are there, as well as having already been in communication with the NFS, DNR, and DOT about soon-to-come impact, resource problems and abuses on the public lands adjoining.

You will NOT make another Franklin.


Incidentally- if you think you're going to sue me, you apparently haven't taken a look at what carpenters earn in this part of the world, or paid any attention to the economic crisis engulfing this contry. Not surprising... most of you sound lke hard-core Rush Limbaugh fans, and denial is your main food group. I have about $2,000 (original retail value) in very used climbing gear, tech clothing, and related back copies of magazines, about another $2,000 in heavily-used construction tools, and a few bucks in the bank (I've used most of my $$ to pay for costs of traildays and the previous work/replacements, remember?)

Since you'd likely sue me for some astronomical figure, and include the cost of your lawyers, I'd really have no option but to kill you, instead, once I got a look at you in court and had my court-appointed attorney find out your home address. Not sure how, but I'd probably be able to figure something out while you were hunched over your computer, pounding pud with one hand while spewing vitriol on some other deserving asshole, or rabidly replying to this post.

Finally, re: offers of "vigilante" responses... BULLSHIT! You wouldn't have the courage to give me a harsh look when we meet, binky, and you know it.

Do what ya like, say what ya like about me or my routes. I can still use a few more laughs.

So your real motivation in removing bolts was that they were unsafe and will be replaced? That seems to be the tone of this response, though your first post cast it as punishment:

In reply to:
Due to intolerable damage and unreasonable impact demonstrating a complete lack of environmental awareness and/or respect for erosion control, trail building and replanting efforts by local and visiting climbers, the following climbs have been chopped or decommissioned for the foreseeable future:

Maybe safety was the driving factor and you used it as a convenient opportunity to goad and guilt climbers at Franklin.

If that is your tactic, I get the sense (you can tell everything about someone from internet postings, you know) that your promise of moving on doesn't preclude you from being the little birdie in the landowners' ear pointing out the climbers' lack of respect.

A real break might be good for you, as it seems you've moved into a zone where pettiness and revenge supersede your drive to really help Franklin. Maybe the place is beyond hope (I've never been, never will, and have no opinion on it).


drumminmachine62


Mar 16, 2009, 11:15 AM
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mojomonkey wrote:

A real break might be good for you, as it seems you've moved into a zone where pettiness and revenge supersede your drive to really help Franklin.

I second this. I have climbed in franklin dozens of times and it is always a shame to see the lack of respect from some climbers, especially larger, uneducated groups. But really Mike I think now would be a great time to just take a break.

I was there on the Sunday the events that allegedly lead to the closing of the routes happened.

I think i'll just be spending my time climbing elsewhere in the future. There are better routes, half the bickering, and no crowds just down the river.


Acetaminophen


Mar 16, 2009, 11:20 AM
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Re: [roninthorne] Route closures at Franklin [In reply to]
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Hi Mike! We have not had the pleasure of meeting before but I spend a good bit of time living out at Seneca in the summers and I have enjoyed climbing at Franklin. I have never attended a trail day for two reasons... first because the only one I ever heard about was inconveniently on a holiday weekend and I had to work full shifts at the crappy 4U motel. Secondly, because your reputation precedes you and I have heard from a lot of people the exact same things that time penguin has said. Sorta dissuaded me from wanting to get involved. I don't mean that as an attack on you im just being 100% honest. I would love to meet the landowners if I only knew who they were. If you wouldn't mind telling me who they are, I would be more than happy to get involved...especially since this summer I am looking at doing an internship at the Franklin Rite Aid pharmacy.
-Amy


notapplicable


Mar 16, 2009, 4:48 PM
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roninthorne wrote:
Not app- you swing back and forth between stroking and backstabbing so fast that I'm starting to chafe on both sides, k? With friends like thee, Judas...

We really do need a *raised eyebrow* emoticon on here.

You seem to think I have said or done something insincere with respect to this whole issue. While I may be guilty of a certain degree of naivety as concerns some of the issues at play (and I freely admit that may be the case), that is not the same thing as insincerity.

Thing is, we aren't gonna agree on on every issue or action Mike. I'm sorry thats a problem for you but I'm not sure there is much to be done about it. Tis simply the nature of things.


roninthorne wrote:
Those bolts will be replaced by yours truly and by Mike Fisher. He's the very laid-back Mike that many of you are confusing me, the monster asshole dickhead- all terms that, in the Universal Translator, come out as "Someone so unconcerned about being popular and sucking up to the dig-ME scene that he's willing to take a stand." Don't do Mr. Fisher such a disservice as taking out your frustrated angst on him.. he has said many times that it ain't his fight, and is the Dr. Goodwhack who originally said to me that the lot of ya wasn't worth rope nor water. He just won't waste the time to say it to you in person, and listen to all this chin music and jaw-jacking.


That Mike F. fella is damn good people and a charming gentleman to boot, of course so are you. Well, maybe not so "charming" but definitely good people. Don't worry though, I know your having a lot of fun playing the evil madman so I won't tell anyone.


roninthorne wrote:
Since you'd likely sue me for some astronomical figure, and include the cost of your lawyers, I'd really have no option but to kill you, instead, once I got a look at you in court and had my court-appointed attorney find out your home address. Not sure how, but I'd probably be able to figure something out while you were hunched over your computer, pounding pud with one hand while spewing vitriol on some other deserving asshole, or rabidly replying to this post.

Unimpressed


(This post was edited by notapplicable on Mar 16, 2009, 5:23 PM)


munky


Mar 17, 2009, 5:38 PM
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You need to be locked up.


munky


Mar 17, 2009, 5:53 PM
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As I've said before, you need to be locked up due to your irrational tone and behavior in this incident. I believe I can safely say that I speak for everyone on here that we are saddened by the lack of respect of the unknown party who trampled trails and added to the already present erosion at Franlin. Furthermore, I think everyone agrees that the service, dedication, and love you have for Franklin is admirable and feels undoubtedly indebted to you for your years of service. I would even go so far to say that i respect and can sympathize with you over your love a certain region in which you climb. You clearly have tons of memories and experiences in West Virginia and Rockingham County that have made you fall in love with the area forever. However, the actions you have presently taken have done nothing but hurt your reputation and damaged the area(s) you so deeply care about. When you love something you don't give up on it, you stay the course no matter what because you love it and you know that its better with you on its side supporting it, rather than without you.


deschamps1000


Mar 20, 2009, 8:28 AM
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roninthorne wrote:
Franklin is all yours...

Holalua! We'll take you up on that. We expect you to keep your word.

I'm no longer in Hburg, but if anybody needs organized help maintaining Franklin, contact the JMU Adventure Program. They've organized many trail days in the VA / WVA area.


dreday3000


Mar 20, 2009, 10:30 AM
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roninthorne wrote:
Well, well, well....

First, DrGoBig- Bingo.

Not app- you swing back and forth between stroking and backstabbing so fast that I'm starting to chafe on both sides, k? With friends like thee, Judas...

Do I own the climbs? Nope... just the hardware... which is all I've taken away. Belly of the Whale needed rebolting... or did you like the added spice of almost 2" of projecting stud possibly snapping your carabiner or digging a nice groove in your flesh in the event of a fall?

Keelhauled used a tree that is presently decomposing at the base for an anchor, and was put up with bolts that had since rusted almost in half. Both will be restored, and Keelhauled will actually end at seperate anchors, instead of stemming right to reach BOTW's.

Some of the top anchor bolts (like the one on constantly gang-raped Castaways) snapped off with only a quarter-turn of the ratchet while I was attempting to loosen them. Despite the abuse here, I'm glad that you, your gymby friends, or your seventeen year old daughter didn't discover this weakness while toproping or lowering from a lead.

(Interesting strategy, BTW- threatening to me while informing an unknown host of internet predators that you might have a teen daughter who travels without you and is actually that stupid... sounds like her biggest danger is Daddy's flapping piehole and failure to teach her to read rock before tossing her out into the real world.)

Those bolts will be replaced by yours truly and by Mike Fisher. He's the very laid-back Mike that many of you are confusing me, the monster asshole dickhead- all terms that, in the Universal Translator, come out as "Someone so unconcerned about being popular and sucking up to the dig-ME scene that he's willing to take a stand." Don't do Mr. Fisher such a disservice as taking out your frustrated angst on him.. he has said many times that it ain't his fight, and is the Dr. Goodwhack who originally said to me that the lot of ya wasn't worth rope nor water. He just won't waste the time to say it to you in person, and listen to all this chin music and jaw-jacking.

The rock belongs to the folks who purchased it... or are you now going to rationalize about how they don't own it either, especially if you want to climb on it. Self-entitlement is so interesting....

After days of watching (and laughing like hell at) the spectacle of a group so determined to avoid the question of who among you fucked things up in the first place (and I'm sure that some of the responsible parties are the loudest protesters), and listening to the repeatedly rationalizations that you "can't do trailwork (even when I'm not around) because of (my) bad attitude" (I, like the Shadow, apparently have the power to cloud men's minds... not to mention shrinking their already tiny cajones to the size of hydrogen molecules), I've gotta conclude that the majority of you have no interest in finding the culprits when you can join the mob shouting "Burn him... he's a witch!"

(Sorry.... you're actually far more stupid than anything I've ever seen on Monthy Python, and using one of their lines to caricature you is actually a disservice to that fine comic troupe.)

Hell, that ass-suck lodi-whatthfinever admitted doesn't do trailwork or bring a dog to the crag and still had the colossal stupidity to give me shit about being over the top in my stances on those topics.

"I don't stand for anything or anyone but me, Mike! And why should I when I can get so much done on my knees or on all fours? Why do you crag guys have to be so extreme?"

Added to this the fact that I am repeatedly being told how I "should have done" things like posting signs, putting up barriers, talking to groups, contacting gyms/schools or those steadfast defenders of your right to bring your dog to the crag, the Access Fund- every one of which I have tried, repeatedly, for the last decade and more- ANYTHING to keep from inconveniencing those of you making a living off my hard work or unable to climb anything harder than a toproped 5.8... well, some further conclusions become inevitable.

Since damned few of you are worth the effort, I'm giving you what you want. Franklin is all yours... and you'd best believe that the landowners will learn that in the next 24 hours. The upshot is that YOU HAVE NO MORE EXCUSES. Talk is cheap... if the Big Bad Mike is gone, now what are you going to use to rationalize your failure to balance freedom with responsibility? Either you will now do trailwork, on your own or in groups, or you and all your little posse will have to admit that all those excuses were just that- EXCUSES.

Personally, I don't expect to hear anything new from Mr. Fisher in the way of volunteers... but I could be wrong. I have been before... when I thought that more than 10% of climbers from outside WV might be at least 1% smarter and more responsible than the lacquer-huffing, bottle-breaking inbreeds who trash the parking lot on a regular basis.

It's all yours, kiddies. Look for the next area to open up in the not too distant future... and look for my name controlling access to ALL the private land where the biggest and best climbs are there, as well as having already been in communication with the NFS, DNR, and DOT about soon-to-come impact, resource problems and abuses on the public lands adjoining.

You will NOT make another Franklin.


Incidentally- if you think you're going to sue me, you apparently haven't taken a look at what carpenters earn in this part of the world, or paid any attention to the economic crisis engulfing this contry. Not surprising... most of you sound lke hard-core Rush Limbaugh fans, and denial is your main food group. I have about $2,000 (original retail value) in very used climbing gear, tech clothing, and related back copies of magazines, about another $2,000 in heavily-used construction tools, and a few bucks in the bank (I've used most of my $$ to pay for costs of traildays and the previous work/replacements, remember?)

Since you'd likely sue me for some astronomical figure, and include the cost of your lawyers, I'd really have no option but to kill you, instead, once I got a look at you in court and had my court-appointed attorney find out your home address. Not sure how, but I'd probably be able to figure something out while you were hunched over your computer, pounding pud with one hand while spewing vitriol on some other deserving asshole, or rabidly replying to this post.

Finally, re: offers of "vigilante" responses... BULLSHIT! You wouldn't have the courage to give me a harsh look when we meet, binky, and you know it.

Do what ya like, say what ya like about me or my routes. I can still use a few more laughs.

You are an asshole.

-Andre Dahlman


drumminmachine62


Apr 6, 2009, 7:05 PM
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I was at Franklin yesterday and as I was topping out a climb what did I see but a parade of nearly a dozen climbers, all of whom looked as if they had never touched a rock before heading up the trail. I wondered to myself where is a group of noobs like this going to climb with all the aforementioned routes chopped?

Later when I walked down the trail to get on some other climbs I stumbled upon the same dozen or so climbers, all trampling around the area directly below castaways and first aid......

Whole lot of good chopping these routes did.


notapplicable


Apr 6, 2009, 7:34 PM
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Did they have TR anchors set up using trees?


drumminmachine62


Apr 6, 2009, 7:54 PM
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I didn't stay long enough to see, one person was half way up castaways and the rest were sitting around while the group leader was trying to teach them some kind of safety acronym. I just remember hearing him say "D is for DANGER" like 10 times. Then I just walked away.


keegan540


Apr 6, 2009, 8:18 PM
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Thanks for bringing some joy into my day! D is for dangler...


bandycoot


Apr 6, 2009, 8:34 PM
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Re: [roninthorne] Route closures at Franklin [In reply to]
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roninthorne wrote:
You claim how hard it is to put up with my personality or attitude. You're all so aggro when online, but you're such incredible pussies that you cling to the excuse of some 45-yr-old man with an artificial knee and a bad back being the reason you can't come and do trailwork? Even when you show up and I'm not there?

Lame, limp-dick, sag-ass posers, the lot of ya.

If you spent half the energy working on the trails that you do dissing me and making excuses why you can't and it's my fault, I'd never need to do any work at Franklin.

What's funniest is that half of you would lick John Sherman's bag just to shake his hand and get hinm to autograph your copy of Stone Crusade... and his attitudes are exactly the same as mine. Before he sold out to the mining industry, he was one of my heroes, along with Ed Abbey and Mark Wilford and a lot of the other guys you don't hear about anymore because they didn't give two shits what the world thought of them if they were determined to do what is right.

If who I am or what I've done pisses you off so badly, come on out to Franklin for the next traildays in June, and express your outrage in person.

Or admit that, unlke me, you're all talk, just a hot, sphincter-scented breeze blowing through the internet and across the forums of RC.com...

Do you realize how aggressive this is in response to about 4-5 hostile posts out of MANY? Most of this thread was a reasonable discussion about the issues and personal opinions. You're definitely the contributing to the "sphincter-scented breeze blowing through the internet" right now. You're criticizing people for criticizing you for not being in the AF even though you're the only one who brought it up. I could go on and on and on. Get the chip off your shoulder, realize that if you really cared about the area you'd get more help with the trail repair days, etc if you didn't act like spoiled entitled brat, and treated other people and their opinions with respect. It's sad that so many people who are stewards of the land let their egos become mixed into their work. Sounds like you have a good long term plan for the area, and many people can actually see at least part of your point of view, but stop acting like a child. It just hurts everyone... If you didn't want people to post aggressively, in your first post you would have described plans to replace bolts like you did in later posts, etc. Instead, like a drama queen, you posted an inflammatory post not giving your whole side of the issue and then blew up. Brilliant.

Josh


notapplicable


Apr 6, 2009, 8:47 PM
Post #51 of 60 (2462 views)
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Re: [drumminmachine62] Route closures at Franklin [In reply to]
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drumminmachine62 wrote:
I didn't stay long enough to see, one person was half way up castaways and the rest were sitting around while the group leader was trying to teach them some kind of safety acronym. I just remember hearing him say "D is for DANGER" like 10 times. Then I just walked away.

Heh, thats pretty funny.

Perhaps some good came of the whole exercise. Like the nOOblets learning how to deal with unforeseen circumstances in the vertical world. Gotta figure it out at some point.


WVUCLMBR


Apr 10, 2009, 6:12 AM
Post #52 of 60 (2365 views)
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Re: [notapplicable] Route closures at Franklin [In reply to]
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D is for Danger....classic!!!


aclimbinfool


Apr 11, 2009, 5:40 PM
Post #53 of 60 (2305 views)
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Re: [roninthorne] Route closures at Franklin [In reply to]
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I think we could all talk about how much an ASSHOLE Mike Gay is. Or, how long he's been doing all this BULLSHIT he calls climbing. Yeah, he may have climbed with Howard Clark & Eddie B. back in the day. But let's not fool ourselves. Mike Gay is a washed up climber looking for attention. So lets not give him the sastisfaction . There are plenty of great places to climb...and, best of all, not have to deal with Mr. Gay.
As for me, I'll be satisfied if I never have to deal with Mike again. You know, except for when he serves me frosty beverages at social functions.


yekcir


Apr 15, 2009, 6:38 PM
Post #54 of 60 (2218 views)
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Re: [aclimbinfool] Route closures at Franklin [In reply to]
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The damage caused to the area by a Friday night of drunken teenagers, with bonfires, spray paint, and rotting carcasses left in their wake, is far more visible to landowners than a bit of trail erosion. Regardless, climbing at Franklin pretty much sucks. The grid bolted routes suck, the rock quality sucks, the whole attitude about the place sucks. This is in no small part directly related to the fact that, if a certain someone is there who claims to have made the place what it is, I've gotta walk on friggin eggshells instead of enjoying a day out climbing.

Mike, if you hadn't developed the area, someone else would have. Just because you put trails in and attempted to control visitors doesn't make you special and doesn't give you the right to be an asshole to people, online or otherwise. Strech your arm over your shoulder, pat yourself on the back, and move on. Let the people who enjoy Franklin enjoy Fraklin. Isn't there something else you'd rather be doing?

In reply to:


aclimbinfool


Apr 18, 2009, 7:39 PM
Post #55 of 60 (2168 views)
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Re: [yekcir] Route closures at Franklin [In reply to]
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Right on! Maybe Mike will be serving you at your next social function. I've heard he's a great bartenter. Sucks at socials skills, but rocks at being BEER BITCH.

yo Rickey....nice OVERALLS


rockandlice


Jun 2, 2009, 1:43 PM
Post #56 of 60 (1959 views)
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Re: [aclimbinfool] Route closures at Franklin [In reply to]
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Hit Franklin on Sunday evening for the first time in over a decade. Knowing what things were like in the early to mid-90's, I was quite impressed with the current state. Coming back from Seneca and just stopping in, we had no guide so we walked the cliff line looking for something inviting. We found a really interesting looking line and hopped on. Shortly after Mike (Ronin) walked by and sparked up some conversation. He informed us we were on Aloha and gave us the background behind the line and told us that he had just re-equipped it.

Reading this whole thread, I was reminded of other experiences I've had in my past where I poured my heart and soul into something, only to be met with a constant up hill battle. I understand how frustrating it can be, and can imagine this is something Mike has dealt with for a really long time now. I know a previous poster mentioned needing to "step away". I can understand that thought, but perhaps Mike is simply too passionate to leave all of his and others hard work to fate.

Just a thought.

It was nice talking with you Mike.


ClimbSoHigh


Oct 26, 2010, 12:37 PM
Post #57 of 60 (1593 views)
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Re: [rockandlice] Route closures at Franklin [In reply to]
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WOW, sounds like Franklin has some issues. Instead of chopping routes, how about you post the names and pictures of the dickheads that trampled the retoration effort instead of being a dickhead too. Just a thought.

I know it sucks to have people treat your hard efforts with little respect, but the key is to not take it out on everyone because 1 group was a bunch of dickheads. It also sounds like the dickheads were not locals, so destroying routes only punishes the locals, not the people that started the anger.

Here in CT we have a dickhead that did a ton of work to establish traditional climbing lines and spent years putting in long hours finding and developing hidden crags. He got pissed that people were not respecting his efforts (by adding bolts to some of his X rated climbs to prevent death falls) and he turned into the most despised climber in New England with his dictator ego (he is a bolt chopping machine) After spending decades doing so much great for climbing in our state, it is ironic that he will be remembered in history for his last decade or so of being a egotistical duechbag, nothing more. Be careful this does not happen to you Mike. The only thing worse than people not respecting your efforts is people forgetting them altogether and only knowing you were a dick.

The world is full of dickheads and nice people, dont let the dicks turn you into one too. If you feel obligated to punish climbers for not respecting you and your work, take it out on the right people, not climbers in general.

WOOOOO SAAAAAHHHHH......


justroberto


Oct 26, 2010, 12:48 PM
Post #58 of 60 (1590 views)
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Re: [ClimbSoHigh] Route closures at Franklin [In reply to]
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ClimbSoHigh wrote:
WOW, sounds like Franklin has some issues. Instead of chopping routes, how about you post the names and pictures of the dickheads that trampled the retoration effort instead of being a dickhead too. Just a thought.

I know it sucks to have people treat your hard efforts with little respect, but the key is to not take it out on everyone because 1 group was a bunch of dickheads. It also sounds like the dickheads were not locals, so destroying routes only punishes the locals, not the people that started the anger.

Here in CT we have a dickhead that did a ton of work to establish traditional climbing lines and spent years putting in long hours finding and developing hidden crags. He got pissed that people were not respecting his efforts (by adding bolts to some of his X rated climbs to prevent death falls) and he turned into the most despised climber in New England with his dictator ego (he is a bolt chopping machine) After spending decades doing so much great for climbing in our state, it is ironic that he will be remembered in history for his last decade or so of being a egotistical duechbag, nothing more. Be careful this does not happen to you Mike. The only thing worse than people not respecting your efforts is people forgetting them altogether and only knowing you were a dick.

The world is full of dickheads and nice people, dont let the dicks turn you into one too. If you feel obligated to punish climbers for not respecting you and your work, take it out on the right people, not climbers in general.

WOOOOO SAAAAAHHHHH......
Did it take you a year and a half to think up that response?


ClimbSoHigh


Oct 26, 2010, 1:10 PM
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Re: [justroberto] Route closures at Franklin [In reply to]
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Nope, just stumbled across this for the first time and thought it sounded a lot like the shit going on in CT. When your bored it work, heading these flame wars is pretty entertaining.

If you want to read another flame war, check out this... http://mountainproject.com/v/eastern_states/ctny_bolting_ethics/106040667__1 we got ours up to 10 pages... booya!

And what are people doing at Franklin anyways, if you live in that state, go to Summersville! DWS for life! Cant chop my routes there! lol. Well, work is over. I'm gonna go climb a rock now...


Express


Oct 26, 2010, 3:01 PM
Post #60 of 60 (1555 views)
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Re: [ClimbSoHigh] Route closures at Franklin [In reply to]
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A lot of people climbing at Franklin are not from WV, but are Virginians from Richmond, Charlottesville, Harrisonburg, and Northern VA/ the DC Metro Area. For many of these folks, it's a lot closer than the NRG and suitable for a day trip.


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