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majid_sabet


Mar 16, 2009, 9:37 AM
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-------------------------------------------------------

JOSHUA TREE – Two rock climbers have been injured, one fatally, at the Joshua Tree National Park.

Authorities say that both were scaling the boulders about a mile from the Hidden Valley day use area late Sunday afternoon. Both fell as far as several hundred feet, according to fire department paramedics.

A 67-year-old Riverside man died at the scene. The other climber was taken to the Desert Regional Medical Center in Palm Springs.

Names of the victims have not been released.

The National Park Service is investigating the circumstances of the incident.


(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Mar 16, 2009, 9:40 AM)


erclimb


Mar 16, 2009, 9:46 AM
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"climbers" or just people scrambling around where they shouldn't be?


surfergirl


Mar 16, 2009, 10:44 AM
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they were climbers. i was climbing on the wall directly across from them and my belayer heard/saw it happen. i don't know how it happened though.


majid_sabet


Mar 16, 2009, 10:45 AM
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surfergirl wrote:
they were climbers. i was climbing on the wall directly across from them and my belayer heard/saw it happen. i don't know how it happened though.

Was this on a multi pitch wall ?


surfergirl


Mar 16, 2009, 10:51 AM
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i believe so...i believe he fell from the top


jtme


Mar 16, 2009, 11:07 AM
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surfergirl wrote:
i believe so...i believe he fell from the top


I have a bad feeling I know who this is. What route were you on surfergirl?


surfergirl


Mar 16, 2009, 11:10 AM
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foat hog or something? not sure exactly but i was on a 2 pitch 5.6.

i hate spreading wrong information so i should say, i really don't know if the accident was on a multipitch wall...all i know is that it was a really high wall


mkro


Mar 16, 2009, 11:46 AM
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Here is a link to a local news article that names the climber who died. I am sorry to hear this and my heart felt condolences to his family and friends.

http://www.kesq.com/...story.asp?s=10012862


c4c


Mar 16, 2009, 11:53 AM
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From the news article it sounds like a lead fall not bouldering or soloing.


dingus


Mar 16, 2009, 11:56 AM
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Holy shit that's WOODY STARK, JT pioneer.



He was a Supertopo forum regular. I never met him but grew to know him and his rep through the site.

http://www.supertopo.com/...html?topic_id=808573

Damn! Dude's been climbing for almost FIFTY YEARS.

RIP Woody Stark.

DMT

ps. Stunned.


(This post was edited by dingus on Mar 16, 2009, 11:57 AM)


c4c


Mar 16, 2009, 11:59 AM
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http://www.mercurynews.com/...kingnews/ci_11925309

another article this ones makes it sound like a rapelling accident


socalclimber


Mar 16, 2009, 12:03 PM
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IT WAS NOT A RAP ACCIDENT! My wife and a number of my friends on the SAR team here and we're on the incident.

It's still not 100% clear what happened. The details will come out soon enough.

I never climbed with Woody, but have casualy known him for years. He was a nice guy.


(This post was edited by socalclimber on Mar 16, 2009, 12:07 PM)


curt


Mar 16, 2009, 12:06 PM
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I'm stunned as well--how awful. My condolences.

Curt


dingus


Mar 16, 2009, 12:27 PM
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This recent ST thread celebrated Woody's life. At 65 he was still cranking.

http://www.supertopo.com/...c_id=741035&tn=0

DMT


vivalargo


Mar 16, 2009, 12:51 PM
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Woody was a Josh pioneer, FA of Dogleg, Double Cross, etc.

A very sad day in So Cal.

JL


blondgecko
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Mar 16, 2009, 1:14 PM
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A damn shame. Really sorry to hear it. Frown


boymeetsrock


Mar 16, 2009, 1:30 PM
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Very sad indeed. Condolences to all who knew the man.


jt512


Mar 16, 2009, 11:17 PM
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Article about Woody and the accident from the Press-Enterprise: Link


notapplicable


Mar 16, 2009, 11:39 PM
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Press-Enterprise wrote:
Gordon said in recent years he and others unsuccessfully tried to get Mr. Stark to be more conservative in his climbs.

"He kept trying to climb like he was a cutting-edge youngster," Gordon said.

Mr. Stark's thrill-seeking extended beyond climbing.

Gordon related how Mr. Stark kept his beloved Mini Cooper in mint condition, and that "He drove that thing like a 17-year-old who had been drinking a bunch of Red Bull."

Sly

Woody sounds like a solid guy who was still out there soaking up the pleasures of this world. A loss to the climbing community to be certain.

RIP Woody

My condolences to all the friends and family he left behind.


reno


Mar 17, 2009, 7:10 AM
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Sad to hear of this. Condolences to his family, his friends, and those who knew him.


caliclimbergrl


Mar 17, 2009, 8:39 AM
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That's very sad.

The journalists need to educate themselves a bit -- especially the author of that second article. They make it sound like protection failing is a common thing and that if you lose your grip, you're going to die. The gear should have protected him. The first article makes him sound like some novice who didn't know how to place gear properly, but it sounds like he was very experienced! Which makes me think that they aren't getting the story right and I think they should be more careful about the accuracy of a story like that before they publish it! Giving the impression that climbing is more dangerous than it is is disrespectful to the community and giving the impression that the person who fell didn't know what he was doing is disrespectful to him.

I'm curious as to what really happened.


dingus


Mar 17, 2009, 8:46 AM
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deleted


(This post was edited by dingus on Mar 17, 2009, 11:29 AM)


GeneralZon


Mar 17, 2009, 8:48 AM
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^^^^^^
That is correct.

Condolences to Woody's Family and Friends.


k.l.k


Mar 17, 2009, 9:13 AM
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dingus wrote:
caliclimbergrl wrote:
That's very sad.

The journalists need to educate themselves a bit -- especially the author of that second article. They make it sound like protection failing is a common thing and that if you lose your grip, you're going to die. The gear should have protected him. The first article makes him sound like some novice who didn't know how to place gear properly, but it sounds like he was very experienced! Which makes me think that they aren't getting the story right and I think they should be more careful about the accuracy of a story like that before they publish it! Giving the impression that climbing is more dangerous than it is is disrespectful to the community and giving the impression that the person who fell didn't know what he was doing is disrespectful to him.
. . . .

The vast majority of news folks will never get climbing details right. Its futility incarnate to expect it.

But having insider info about climbing reveals the wild inaccuracies of news articles. Now apply that filter to ALL THE OTHER NEWS STORIES you read....

do ALL of them contain similar inaccuracies that knowledgable insiders can detect with a glance?

OF COURSE THEY DO.

No, this is different. The problem is not that they've gotten details incorrect-- as you say, that is standard in news stories driven by deadlines --but that they've completed misunderstood and thus misrepresented how climbing works at the most basic level.

I can't imagine a newspaper in Wisconsin or Minnesota publishing a comparably stupid bit on a hunting or fishing accident. Or any paper in the US publishing something comparably ignorant about, say, football or baseball.

Imagine if Woody had been a famous old-skool desert racer. There might've been errors of detail, but the news reports wouldn't have been suggestions that he died because his handlebars flew off and that was a normal occurrence.

The reporting is a measure of the marginality of our sport, and the lack of sympathy we have from the larger public. Unfortunately, reporting about climbing is usually this bad in US news outlets. The Manchester Guardian would never publish anything this stupid in a report on an accident in the Peak District.

If we want better reporting from US papers, we'd better begin to cultivate closer relations with what remains of editorial staff. I see that the P-E is going to run an in-depth story today or tomorrow, and I expect that story will be dramatically better.

Maybe Woody can help the paper's readers to understand all of us better.

RIP


surfergirl


Mar 17, 2009, 9:18 AM
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i don't know what happened but i agree that the news articles do not sound right. my partner saw him at the TOP of the wall, with his second following. she heard the fall, looked up, and saw the second swinging and the leader was gone. maybe someone with more experience than me can make some sense out of these facts.


dingus


Mar 17, 2009, 9:30 AM
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deleted


(This post was edited by dingus on Mar 17, 2009, 11:30 AM)


k.l.k


Mar 17, 2009, 9:41 AM
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dingus wrote:
k.l.k wrote:
If we want better reporting from US papers, we'd better begin to cultivate closer relations with what remains of editorial staff.

I respectfully ask - what's the point? Organization, group think and PR firms - these are a few of the reasons I took up climbing to ESCAPE!

If casually stupid news articles are the price for being on the fringe? That's a cheap price.

I don't believe that's the price. I think the price is land closure and regulation of a sport that most taxpayers think is stupid, dangerous, and possibly environmentally unsound. But we can have that debate in another thread.

The P-E story isn't up yet, at least online.


brotherbbock


Mar 17, 2009, 9:42 AM
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This guy was a trooper. This last year he took a long fall at Tahquitz and broke his foot or something. He was right back at the gym training with a cast on! I just remember thinking that dude is hardcore, little did I realize how hardcore he really was after reading a bit more about him. Condolences.


dingus


Mar 17, 2009, 9:45 AM
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RIP WOODY STARK!

DMT


(This post was edited by dingus on Mar 17, 2009, 11:30 AM)


jt512


Mar 17, 2009, 10:03 AM
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k.l.k wrote:
The P-E story isn't up yet, at least online.

I posted a link to it an above post.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Mar 17, 2009, 10:03 AM)


chanceboarder


Mar 17, 2009, 10:31 AM
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I was fortunate to meet and climb with Woody a couple times over the past few years. He was a very stand up guy and a true climbing pioneer. He has many friends in the climbing community and will be missed.

My condolences to his friends and family.

Jason


troutboy


Mar 17, 2009, 10:44 AM
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surfergirl wrote:
i don't know what happened but i agree that the news articles do not sound right. my partner saw him at the TOP of the wall, with his second following. she heard the fall, looked up, and saw the second swinging and the leader was gone. maybe someone with more experience than me can make some sense out of these facts.

There are at least 2 very plausible scenarios that fit this description, both of which fit with other potential known factors; however, definitive information will be available soon, so there is no reason, nor would it be appropriate, to speculate.

TS


majid_sabet


Mar 17, 2009, 10:51 AM
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surfergirl wrote:
i don't know what happened but i agree that the news articles do not sound right. my partner saw him at the TOP of the wall, with his second following. she heard the fall, looked up, and saw the second swinging and the leader was gone. maybe someone with more experience than me can make some sense out of these facts.

Was he on top belaying his partner or they were both climbing at the same time?


caliclimbergrl


Mar 17, 2009, 10:57 AM
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k.l.k wrote:
dingus wrote:
k.l.k wrote:
If we want better reporting from US papers, we'd better begin to cultivate closer relations with what remains of editorial staff.

I respectfully ask - what's the point? Organization, group think and PR firms - these are a few of the reasons I took up climbing to ESCAPE!

If casually stupid news articles are the price for being on the fringe? That's a cheap price.

I don't believe that's the price. I think the price is land closure and regulation of a sport that most taxpayers think is stupid, dangerous, and possibly environmentally unsound. But we can have that debate in another thread.

The P-E story isn't up yet, at least online.

Exactly. I wrote a bunch more and then deleted it because I don't want to hijack a thread about a tragic death, so we can talk about the how climbing is portrayed in the media and it's implications somewhere else. But I do want to say that another thing that annoyed me about the articles were that the misinformation make it sound like Woody Stark was either a novice who died because he didn't know what he is doing which is obviously not the case and is extremely disrespectful. I know journalists get things wrong all the time, but that is still going to bother me. Other articles that recognize who he was make it sound like he was some immature old adrenaline junkie who drove recklessly and took wild risks when climbing. This doesn't seem honest either. The man died -- it bothers me that they would imply these things in the result of a very sad accident that resulted in a death!

Anyway, I hope a more accurate article comes out soon.


climbingnoise


Mar 17, 2009, 10:57 AM
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This is super sad. I'm going to Jtree this weekend, I was going to make a post asking what is the best area to go to if I want to sport to 5.10- or boulder v0 -v3, but I'm thinking I would like to know what would be a good place to go to get to head up on some of Woody's routes (problems?) in tribute?


moose_droppings


Mar 17, 2009, 11:01 AM
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This is really terrible news and am very saddened to read it. My sincere condolences to all of Woody's family and to all of his many, many friends.

RIP
Woody


caliclimbergrl


Mar 17, 2009, 11:08 AM
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Is that the article we're all waiting for to give an accurate account of what happened? It still sounds like they're saying it was a lead fall and he was trying to down climb when he fell? And then the gear blew (sounds like some bolts blew?) so he took a really long fall. Which doesn't seem to match what surfergirl's belayer saw. She makes it sound like it was either a simul-climbing injury or that Woody was belaying from the top with no anchor and his second fell which jerked him off the wall. If he was yanked into the rock and hit his head, he wouldn't necessarily have to fall far to get badly (fatally) injured.

I have a hard time believing he was near the top on a lead and every single piece of gear including bolts failed which is what would need to happen (or close to it) for him to hit the belayer and continue falling the way even this article is making it sound. And it says the belayer also fell, but the equipment stopped his fall. If he was anchored in and belaying, he couldn't have fallen far. Is that really what happened?


climbsomething


Mar 17, 2009, 11:11 AM
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dingus wrote:

The vast majority of news folks will never get climbing details right. Its futility incarnate to expect it.

But having insider info about climbing reveals the wild inaccuracies of news articles. Now apply that filter to ALL THE OTHER NEWS STORIES you read....

do ALL of them contain similar inaccuracies that knowledgable insiders can detect with a glance?

OF COURSE THEY DO.

A lot of what we call news isn't news at all.... its wholesale fabrication.

DMT
I hope you'll permit me to apply my own "insider knowledge filter."

There's nothing wrong with the second story, from a journalistic point of view. It's not hysterical, and it doesn't make climbing sound a death sport. All it said was the gear failed. It didn't say it burst into flame or anything sensational. As a climber, I question that it just "failed," but as a reporter, I understand why they were vague and can sympathize if they were confused. Failing any pre-existing specialized knowledge, and a cooperative, knowledgeable source who knew and could explain exactly what happened on the Great Burrito before their deadline, they couldn't have given an explanation to satisfy the rc.com world anyway. I suspect both of those factors came into play here.

But really, the casual reader wouldn't have cared if the reporter had been specific with the technical explanation. Newspaper journalists, even if they have specialized knowledge themselves, have to write (or edit) for a very general reader with a basic education. They do not write (or edit) for niche audiences.

That's how I would have written the story, because I know the vast, VAST majority of readers don't climb. But if they skim such a story, they might want to know about helmets, if this kind of thing happens often, and, on a very basic level, what link failed. They really don't care about details, though, because they wouldn't understand them anyway and wouldn't care to. They're just not interested. That's ok. It doesn't make them or the reporters stupid.

It appears that the writers really wanted to appeal to a more universal human angle, which is why they put so much emphasis on Todd Gordon's section. To that end, they did a fine job.

*EDIT: ok, when I said second, I meant the P-E story. Not the TV station's report or the AP brief in the Merc. That said, they do source the JTree spokesman as saying he fell and his gear "failed."


(This post was edited by climbsomething on Mar 17, 2009, 11:17 AM)


caliclimbergrl


Mar 17, 2009, 11:21 AM
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That's all fine if that's what really happened. My issue isn't that they aren't being specific enough, but that it sounds like they might be just wrong about what happened. If the death and injuries really was because of gear failure, fine. But it just sounds unlikely to me that enough gear failed to result in him hitting the belayer hard enough to cause serious injuries to the belayer and then continue falling. If that's what happened, I'll take it all back and in that case, I don't think the reporters did anything wrong. But I suspect that it's not just vague because of the audience they're writing for, but inaccurate.


brotherbbock


Mar 17, 2009, 11:25 AM
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climbingnoise wrote:
This is super sad. I'm going to Jtree this weekend, I was going to make a post asking what is the best area to go to if I want to sport to 5.10- or boulder v0 -v3, but I'm thinking I would like to know what would be a good place to go to get to head up on some of Woody's routes (problems?) in tribute?
Go climb the Dogleg on the Old Woman Formation in Hidden Valley. Classic jamming.


climbsomething


Mar 17, 2009, 11:26 AM
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caliclimbergrl wrote:
k.l.k wrote:
dingus wrote:
k.l.k wrote:
If we want better reporting from US papers, we'd better begin to cultivate closer relations with what remains of editorial staff.

I respectfully ask - what's the point? Organization, group think and PR firms - these are a few of the reasons I took up climbing to ESCAPE!

If casually stupid news articles are the price for being on the fringe? That's a cheap price.

I don't believe that's the price. I think the price is land closure and regulation of a sport that most taxpayers think is stupid, dangerous, and possibly environmentally unsound. But we can have that debate in another thread.

The P-E story isn't up yet, at least online.

Exactly. I wrote a bunch more and then deleted it because I don't want to hijack a thread about a tragic death, so we can talk about the how climbing is portrayed in the media and it's implications somewhere else. But I do want to say that another thing that annoyed me about the articles were that the misinformation make it sound like Woody Stark was either a novice who died because he didn't know what he is doing which is obviously not the case and is extremely disrespectful. I know journalists get things wrong all the time, but that is still going to bother me. Other articles that recognize who he was make it sound like he was some immature old adrenaline junkie who drove recklessly and took wild risks when climbing. This doesn't seem honest either. The man died -- it bothers me that they would imply these things in the result of a very sad accident that resulted in a death!

Anyway, I hope a more accurate article comes out soon.
Do you know Woody? I don't, so I can't say anything about the portrayals. But it seems like you're extremely sensitive to them. Is there a reason?

On the most basic, basic level, yes, he fell and died. That's all these stories are saying at this point. They're not saying he was a gumby. And we all know that even very experienced people can die tragic deaths when their gear fails, isn't placed or used properly, or they just fall in such a way.

I don't think Gordon's quotes make him sound like an immature old adrenaline junkie. They make him sound like a fun, driven person who didn't let age get in the way of enjoying himself. If that's the case,and Woody were my dad, I'd be comforted to see him remembered that way.

I'd respectfully suggest that you're reading into these stories far too much. If you have a uniquely personal reason for that, I'm very sorry for your loss.


caliclimbergrl


Mar 17, 2009, 11:32 AM
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No, I'd never heard of him before this thread actually. Though in hindsight, I'm sure I've seen him name in my guidebooks since I've done some of his routes. Maybe he was an immature adrenaline junkie. But I suspect this isn't the case.

And I do think that first article posted (http://www.kesq.com/global/story.asp?s=10012862) does imply that he was a total gumby. They say that his grip weakened, all his gear blew, and his fall was eventually stopped by his partner's gear (the anchors I assume). And then they end the article saying that people who don't have proper equipment and training shouldn't climb. I guess it's not totally direct, but I do think they're implying that he lacked proper equipment and/or training.

I'm not personally effected by this, I just don't have anything better to do this morning that post on rc.com and I am curious as to what actually happened. That's all.


climbsomething


Mar 17, 2009, 11:34 AM
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caliclimbergrl wrote:
But I suspect that it's not just vague because of the audience they're writing for, but inaccurate.
That might have been all the info they had. If the truth comes out later, it will, but for now, this is all they knew, from the sources they had to trust on deadline to explain it for a finite news hole.

As is almost always the case with climbing fatalities, very few people know what happened and it will take time to explain it thoroughly, if it can ever be fully explained at all. Only Woody, and maybe his partner, knew exactly what happened. To have a detailed explanation the next day in a general audience newspaper IS pretty much impossible, but again, not because the reporters are necessarily dumbasses or don't care about accuracy. There are a lot of complex reasons why scenarios like this are very difficult to report accurately in any timeframe. (EDIT: by anybody)

Of course, it is very fashionable to just take out frustrations on the media.


(This post was edited by climbsomething on Mar 17, 2009, 11:44 AM)


Wunderkind


Mar 17, 2009, 11:36 AM
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It bothered me to read the last quote about "people who engage in climbing need to know what they're doing". It seemed to imply that Woody didn't.

He sounds like a great guy who enjoyed a long climbing career and contributed immensely to the sport and the community. I hope that I can enjoy one of his routes soon.


surfergirl


Mar 17, 2009, 11:37 AM
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my partner saw woody at the top, belaying, not climbing. maybe when the newspapers said all his gear failed, maybe they meant his anchor failed?


climbsomething


Mar 17, 2009, 11:39 AM
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caliclimbergrl wrote:


And I do think that first article posted (http://www.kesq.com/global/story.asp?s=10012862) does imply that he was a total gumby. They say that his grip weakened, all his gear blew, and his fall was eventually stopped by his partner's gear (the anchors I assume). And then they end the article saying that people who don't have proper equipment and training shouldn't climb. I guess it's not totally direct, but I do think they're implying that he lacked proper equipment and/or training.
That's obviously your opinion, informed by whatever experiences and emotions that I can't and won't project. But I still think you're being very sensitive to something that was never intended.


caliclimbergrl


Mar 17, 2009, 11:44 AM
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surfergirl wrote:
my partner saw woody at the top, belaying, not climbing. maybe when the newspapers said all his gear failed, maybe they meant his anchor failed?

Maybe, but even if it did, the next piece down should have stopped his fall. I don't understand how he could hit his belayer hard enough to crack ribs and cause internal injuries unless all of his gear failed. So maybe that is what happened. But even if that is the case, your account is still very different from the article's account. If you're right, I still think it's strange that he was pulled off of the top from a fall his second took while top roping. If that is what happened, he must not have had an anchor at the top. But for all of his gear to fail is strange. And then what was it that finally stopped the fall if his partner was climbing rather than anchored at a belay station?

Hopefully, we'll get an accurate account soon. This is a pretty tragic accident -- pioneer or not, I hate reading about climbers that die climbing!


majid_sabet


Mar 17, 2009, 11:51 AM
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caliclimbergrl wrote:
surfergirl wrote:
my partner saw woody at the top, belaying, not climbing. maybe when the newspapers said all his gear failed, maybe they meant his anchor failed?

Maybe, but even if it did, the next piece down should have stopped his fall. I don't understand how he could hit his belayer hard enough to crack ribs and cause internal injuries unless all of his gear failed. So maybe that is what happened. But even if that is the case, your account is still very different from the article's account. If you're right, I still think it's strange that he was pulled off of the top from a fall his second took while top roping. If that is what happened, he must not have had an anchor at the top. But for all of his gear to fail is strange. And then what was it that finally stopped the fall if his partner was climbing rather than anchored at a belay station?

Hopefully, we'll get an accurate account soon. This is a pretty tragic accident -- pioneer or not, I hate reading about climbers that die climbing!

No
If the bealyer falls from an anchor while follower is climbing ,it would be a disaster.


caliclimbergrl


Mar 17, 2009, 11:56 AM
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Well, than that's probably what happened.

But why wouldn't any of his gear hold him if he got pulled off from the top while belaying? I'm sure you're right -- I've obviously never had this happen and I've never seen it happen or even really thought about it -- I've just taken care to make sure my anchors were bomber. But I have seen many experienced people belay from the top without putting in an anchor. So what would happen if you got yanked off the top with no anchor or an anchor failed? Why wouldn't any of your gear stop your fall? Why would this be so different from the follower falling and yanking the leader off the rock during a simul-climb?

Feel free to call me an idiot, but I really would like to know?


curt


Mar 17, 2009, 12:14 PM
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caliclimbergrl wrote:
Well, than that's probably what happened.

But why wouldn't any of his gear hold him if he got pulled off from the top while belaying? I'm sure you're right -- I've obviously never had this happen and I've never seen it happen or even really thought about it -- I've just taken care to make sure my anchors were bomber. But I have seen many experienced people belay from the top without putting in an anchor. So what would happen if you got yanked off the top with no anchor or an anchor failed? Why wouldn't any of your gear stop your fall? Why would this be so different from the follower falling and yanking the leader off the rock during a simul-climb?

Feel free to call me an idiot, but I really would like to know?

I doubt very much that's what happened. A lead fall while down climbing seems much more consistent with the observed outcomes.

Curt


bandycoot


Mar 17, 2009, 12:24 PM
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caliclimbergrl wrote:
I don't want to hijack a thread about a tragic death

Then please don't...

Someone showed me that you can search on www.mountainproject.com for "Woody Stark" and it will come up with routes that he got the FA on. They include Double Cross, The Flake, Dogleg, Spiderline, and many others.

http://www.mountainproject.com/scripts/Search?query=woody+stark&Submit=Search

He definitely found some gems back when he started climbing out there. At least he lived life to the fullest! Good man.

Josh


quiteatingmysteak


Mar 17, 2009, 12:24 PM
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He had a lot of friends, all good people. Wish I got to know him...


locker


Mar 17, 2009, 12:35 PM
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Woody was a dear and close friend and climbing partner...

at this time, PLEASE do not speculate or insult or what the fuk ever...

It WILL be disclosed in time...

Woodys daughter and son are GRIEVING and viewing these THREADS...

Post WISELY and with CARE please...

THANK YOU...

sincerely,

locker


climbsomething


Mar 17, 2009, 12:54 PM
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I didn't mean to myself. It may not be clear, but I was trying to give a perspective that, hopefully, would reduce some of the anti-media noise that is fairly common but totally unnecessary in these types of threads. It's indirect, but my hope was that explaining how the media works would temper any sentiments that could be seen as disrespectful given one of the few things that, sadly, we know for certain: Woody is no longer with us.

I'll stop now.


curt


Mar 17, 2009, 12:58 PM
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Locker, Josh, etal,

Please be aware that this thread is in the "Accident and Incident Analysis" forum of RC.com, and hence is located where discussions of what may have gone wrong occur. You may want to begin a separate thread in the "In Memory Of" forum, where such speculation is not allowed.

Curt


majid_sabet


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caliclimbergrl wrote:
Well, than that's probably what happened.

But why wouldn't any of his gear hold him if he got pulled off from the top while belaying? I'm sure you're right -- I've obviously never had this happen and I've never seen it happen or even really thought about it -- I've just taken care to make sure my anchors were bomber. But I have seen many experienced people belay from the top without putting in an anchor. So what would happen if you got yanked off the top with no anchor or an anchor failed? Why wouldn't any of your gear stop your fall? Why would this be so different from the follower falling and yanking the leader off the rock during a simul-climb?

Feel free to call me an idiot, but I really would like to know?

When a leader falls while belayer is controlling the system, each protection between belayer and the leader act as a cushion to reduce the falling forces in event of a leader fall and ultimately, the main anchor where belayer is secured, has to handle the total falling forces of both people (assuming both fall at the same time generating maximum falling forces).Generally, the belaying anchor should be rated to above 20 KN.

On the other hand, if a belayer is on top and attached to an anchor and somehow he looses his anchor and falls while follower is climbing, the belayer initially puts 2X of the falling forces on the lower piece (pulley effect) and if the follower falls at the same time, both climber will generate enough forces to make the entire protections fail which may result with a serious injury or fatality .

Again, it is too early to come up with any conclusion so we just have to wait for the official report from JTNP.


vivalargo


Mar 17, 2009, 4:43 PM
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surfergirl wrote:
my partner saw him at the TOP of the wall, with his second following. she heard the fall, looked up, and saw the second swinging and the leader was gone.

This is not exactly clear information. If it's remotely true - that the "leader" (WS) was belaying on top, and somehow fell off (unlikely) or was pulled off (more likely) - than this is a complicated situation with all kinds of difficult to ascertain factors (anchor failure, etc.). I wouldn't expect a definitive breakdown anytime soon.

While wild speculation is imprudent and tasteless besides, this is an "Accident and Incident Analysis" site, and if anyone were to post details that are known, the real, concrete stuff, sober public
discussion might shed some light on things - and that's not to insinuate that Josh SAR will bungle the
analysis.

As someone who writes books about anchors, et al, my interest in these matters is as genuine as my respect for Woody Stark. It still seems all wrong that he's gone.

JL


(This post was edited by vivalargo on Mar 17, 2009, 4:46 PM)


k.l.k


Mar 17, 2009, 4:51 PM
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climbsomething wrote:
*EDIT: ok, when I said second, I meant the P-E story. Not the TV station's report or the AP brief in the Merc. That said, they do source the JTree spokesman as saying he fell and his gear "failed."

Climbsomething, yes, when I was referring to the "stupid" story, I was referring to the version that was circulating like a virus from Palm Springs and AP. I hadn't seen the link that JT posted, and when I searched P-E's site, the story didn't come up.

The editor at P-E (Borkos?) did the responsible thing by finding the thread on Supertopo and posting to ask for info from interested folks. I thought Todd's quotes were good. The only part of the piece with which I'd quibble was the brief section that more or less synopsized the AP one. It's too early for a breakdown of the accident, so I don't hold the P-E responsible for that.

I found the P-E's interest in contacting Supertopo promising, as I have the recent efforts of the NYT to publish better stories about climbing.

RIP Woody.


Partner robdotcalm


Mar 17, 2009, 5:53 PM
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surfergirl wrote:
my partner saw woody at the top, belaying, not climbing. maybe when the newspapers said all his gear failed, maybe they meant his anchor failed?

Do you (or anyone) know what route they were on?

r.c


Partner robdotcalm


Mar 17, 2009, 6:02 PM
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vivalargo wrote:
surfergirl wrote:
my partner saw him at the TOP of the wall, with his second following. she heard the fall, looked up, and saw the second swinging and the leader was gone.

This is not exactly clear information. If it's remotely true - that the "leader" (WS) was belaying on top, and somehow fell off (unlikely) or was pulled off (more likely) - than this is a complicated situation with all kinds of difficult to ascertain factors (anchor failure, etc.). I wouldn't expect a definitive breakdown anytime soon.....

As someone who writes books about anchors, et al, my interest in these matters is as genuine as my respect for Woody Stark. It still seems all wrong that he's gone.

JL

The statement is straightforward and very clear. It's an eyewitness account .

Are we not to be allowed to have information before it's officially sanctioned?

Cheers,
Rob.calm


clintcummins


Mar 17, 2009, 6:24 PM
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On the corresponding thread on supertopo.com

http://www.supertopo.com/...73&tn=0&mr=0

Wendell ("TGT") says the news reports are not accurate about the fall details. He also says he will prepare an accurate report, but promised to give it to Woody's children and belayer (Al Kwok) first.

The NPS Morning report of March 17, 2009 says Woody fell about 100 feet and hit the ground:

http://home.nps.gov/...tions/morningreport/

"Joshua Tree National Park (CA)
Man Killed, Second Injured In Climbing Accident

A 67-year-old California man died of injuries sustained in a fall that occurred last Sunday while he was climbing a rock formation called the Great Burrito. A second climber also fell in the same accident and was treated for injuries he received during his fall. At approximately 4 p.m. on Sunday, Curtis Stark, 67, and Alfred Kuok, 44, were climbing in an area near the park’s Hidden Valley nature trail, located near the Hidden Valley picnic area. The trail is a popular destination for both day hikers and rock climbers. Stark was the lead climber on the Great Burrito formation and was being followed by Kuok. Stark experienced some difficulty with his climb and began to descend. During the descent, he lost his grip and fell. As he fell, Stark struck Kuok, causing him to fall as well. Kuok’s protection held, arresting his fall, but Stark continued to fall, suffering fatal head injuries when he struck the ground. It’s estimated that Stark fell about 100 feet. Two other rock climbers immediately responded and rendered assistance to Kuok, helping lower him from the cliff face. Rangers received word of the accident at approximately 4:40 p.m. and responded along with members of the Joshua Tree Search and Rescue (JOSAR) team. Kuok was treated by emergency personnel for back pain, rib injuries, and other possible internal injuries. A San Bernardino County Sheriff’s Office helicopter was called in and airlifted Kuok to Desert Regional Hospital in Palm Springs. Personnel from the Riverside County Coroner’s Office also responded to the accident scene. [Submitted by Joe Zarki, Public Information Officer]"

This report is similar to the newspaper reports, so it is apparently inaccurate as well.


(This post was edited by clintcummins on Mar 17, 2009, 6:27 PM)


curt


Mar 17, 2009, 6:26 PM
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robdotcalm wrote:
vivalargo wrote:
surfergirl wrote:
my partner saw him at the TOP of the wall, with his second following. she heard the fall, looked up, and saw the second swinging and the leader was gone.

This is not exactly clear information. If it's remotely true - that the "leader" (WS) was belaying on top, and somehow fell off (unlikely) or was pulled off (more likely) - than this is a complicated situation with all kinds of difficult to ascertain factors (anchor failure, etc.). I wouldn't expect a definitive breakdown anytime soon.....

As someone who writes books about anchors, et al, my interest in these matters is as genuine as my respect for Woody Stark. It still seems all wrong that he's gone.

JL

The statement is straightforward and very clear. It's an eyewitness account .

Are we not to be allowed to have information before it's officially sanctioned?

Cheers,
Rob.calm

Sorry, but that is no eyewitness account. Surfergirl is relating what her climbing partner supposedly saw.

Curt


patto


Mar 17, 2009, 7:00 PM
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majid_sabet wrote:
When a leader falls while belayer is controlling the system, each protection between belayer and the leader act as a cushion to reduce the falling forces in event of a leader fall and ultimately, the main anchor where belayer is secured, has to handle the total falling forces of both people (assuming both fall at the same time generating maximum falling forces).Generally, the belaying anchor should be rated to above 20 KN.

On the other hand, if a belayer is on top and attached to an anchor and somehow he looses his anchor and falls while follower is climbing, the belayer initially puts 2X of the falling forces on the lower piece (pulley effect) and if the follower falls at the same time, both climber will generate enough forces to make the entire protections fail which may result with a serious injury or fatality .

You are wrong majid. You can't go double counting forces like that.

Not to mention that the fall factor is normally EXTREMELY low in such an event because of the quantity of rope out. And there is a belay device in the loop which would slip and further reduce forces.


vivalargo


Mar 17, 2009, 8:27 PM
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I've heard from a reliable source that some kind of statement will soon be made by folks who were either at the scene or were briefed by those who were. At that time I would suspect that enough details will be presented to encourage a serious discussion. Till then we will be grabbing for straws.

JL


billl7


Mar 17, 2009, 8:48 PM
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MountainProject.com lists about 10 routes on that wall, all single pitch, all estimated 100 feet or less.

I'm not saying that pushes the analysis in any particular direction. Probably best to hold off on any further analysis until the accident report or a condensed version is released.

Bill L


chanceboarder


Mar 17, 2009, 9:50 PM
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Had this laying around on a hard drive from back in '06.




cfarr


Mar 17, 2009, 10:14 PM
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While I am very hesitant to reply, I would like to know what happened, for closure I guess. I was the third or fourth person on the scene. I am still puzzled by what I saw. The second was about thirty feet up, hanging on what appeared to be the second rope for the third member of the party. The rope was clipped into his haul loop, with no line attached at tie in point! The lead line was hanging near the ground with the first half of a figure 8 near to the ground, and ran through 2 or 3 pieces not far from the top of the formation where the other end appeared to still be. Nothing appeared to be attached to the deceased. Too many unknowns to make conclusions, and while I have my guesses I'll keep them to myself. Hopefully someone can fill in the blanks.
Any information on how the second is doing would be very appreciated.


majid_sabet


Mar 17, 2009, 10:20 PM
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patto wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
When a leader falls while belayer is controlling the system, each protection between belayer and the leader act as a cushion to reduce the falling forces in event of a leader fall and ultimately, the main anchor where belayer is secured, has to handle the total falling forces of both people (assuming both fall at the same time generating maximum falling forces).Generally, the belaying anchor should be rated to above 20 KN.

On the other hand, if a belayer is on top and attached to an anchor and somehow he looses his anchor and falls while follower is climbing, the belayer initially puts 2X of the falling forces on the lower piece (pulley effect) and if the follower falls at the same time, both climber will generate enough forces to make the entire protections fail which may result with a serious injury or fatality .

You are wrong majid. You can't go double counting forces like that.

Not to mention that the fall factor is normally EXTREMELY low in such an event because of the quantity of rope out. And there is a belay device in the loop which would slip and further reduce forces.

Yaa sure


majid_sabet


Mar 17, 2009, 10:23 PM
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vivalargo wrote:
I've heard from a reliable source that some kind of statement will soon be made by folks who were either at the scene or were briefed by those who were. At that time I would suspect that enough details will be presented to encourage a serious discussion. Till then we will be grabbing for straws.

JL

Thanks John


curt


Mar 17, 2009, 10:36 PM
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cfarr wrote:
While I am very hesitant to reply, I would like to know what happened, for closure I guess. I was the third or fourth person on the scene. I am still puzzled by what I saw. The second was about thirty feet up, hanging on what appeared to be the second rope for the third member of the party. The rope was clipped into his haul loop, with no line attached at tie in point!

So, the rope that the second was trailing (from his gear loop) appeared to be supporting the second--some 30 feet off the ground. What exactly (if you can recall) was holding him up? Was the rope simply caught on something or was someone else holding it?

cfarr wrote:
The lead line was hanging near the ground with the first half of a figure 8 near to the ground, and ran through 2 or 3 pieces not far from the top of the formation where the other end appeared to still be. Nothing appeared to be attached to the deceased.

It's not unheard of for a climber to start up a climb without finishing his figure eight knot. However, in the scenario you are painting, the lead rope came detached from both the leader and the belayer/follower--and that would be quite remarkable. Do you think anyone on the scene before you could have untied the rope from either of them?

cfarr wrote:
Too many unknowns to make conclusions, and while I have my guesses I'll keep them to myself. Hopefully someone can fill in the blanks.

Yes, this is quite odd and I hope we do eventually know what happened. Thanks for your post.

cfarr wrote:
Any information on how the second is doing would be very appreciated.

I understand he is already back at work.

Curt


southswell


Mar 17, 2009, 10:40 PM
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First of all, I am very sorry to here about Mr Stark. Although I did not know him, I climb in JT often and appreciate the efforts of all FA'rs out there. Its obvious he will be missed.
RIP

Now,
I have to put in my 2 cents. And I certainly mean absolutely no disrespect. If it did happen like the fellow on the Sentinel said, it could have happened like this: the leader (being tied into one end of the rope) tops out and builds his anchor, pulls up the slack and puts his follower on belay directly from the anchor. Follower begins to climb. Leader loses stance (Possibly caused by follower falling) and falls.

If they were using an auto locking belay the follower would stay where he fell, and on most climbs on the GB (depending on rope length and height of the follower) the leader (who is not tied in short to his anchor) would have enough slack to deck. I could imagine not wanting to be tied to the belay on top of the GB. From what i remember, gear placements on top can make it fairly uncomfortable to belay from your harness. It is much easier to tie in short to the anchor and then belay your partner from the anchor itself. The key to making this a safe belay is for the leader to tie himself in SHORT.

Also, the top of the GB is a dangerous place. If you fall down, trip, stumble, step on a shoe lace, whatever, there is very little to stop you from tumbling off the side. There are few boulders or features on top. Just sloping slab up to shear drops on either side.

Again, I mean no disrespect. As a climber I cannot help imagining and trying to recreate the circumstances that lead to accidents like this.
My heart breaks for this man, and his family.


jt512


Mar 17, 2009, 10:41 PM
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cfarr wrote:
Any information on how the second is doing would be very appreciated.

Al has reported to friends that his injuries were relatively minor, a few cracked ribs.

Jay


cfarr


Mar 17, 2009, 10:52 PM
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The second was hanging by the line he had been trailing, which was attached to his rear haul loop, not gear loop.
It is my understanding that he fell from the top and it is unknown why he stopped after roughly 70 feet.
Thanks for the info on Al.


(This post was edited by cfarr on Mar 17, 2009, 10:54 PM)


curt


Mar 17, 2009, 10:58 PM
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cfarr wrote:
The second was hanging by the line he had been trailing, which was attached to his rear haul loop, not gear loop.
It is my understanding that he fell from the top and it is unknown why he stopped after roughly 70 feet.
Thanks for the info on Al.

No problem. So, if I understand you correctly, the rope that the second was trailing from his haul loop went back up to the top of the route, and was somehow attached up there, right?

Curt


cfarr


Mar 17, 2009, 10:59 PM
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Yes.


curt


Mar 17, 2009, 11:12 PM
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cfarr wrote:
Yes.

Thanks. I realize this isn't particularly easy for you, but it is important to try and determine exactly what went wrong.

Curt


patto


Mar 18, 2009, 5:43 AM
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majid_sabet wrote:
patto wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
When a leader falls while belayer is controlling the system, each protection between belayer and the leader act as a cushion to reduce the falling forces in event of a leader fall and ultimately, the main anchor where belayer is secured, has to handle the total falling forces of both people (assuming both fall at the same time generating maximum falling forces).Generally, the belaying anchor should be rated to above 20 KN.

On the other hand, if a belayer is on top and attached to an anchor and somehow he looses his anchor and falls while follower is climbing, the belayer initially puts 2X of the falling forces on the lower piece (pulley effect) and if the follower falls at the same time, both climber will generate enough forces to make the entire protections fail which may result with a serious injury or fatality .

You are wrong majid. You can't go double counting forces like that.

Not to mention that the fall factor is normally EXTREMELY low in such an event because of the quantity of rope out. And there is a belay device in the loop which would slip and further reduce forces.

Yaa sure

Try doing the sums and explain to me a realistic situation with high fall factors. Also explain how the 'pulley' effect can work AND be compounded by the other climber falling. Your double counting your forces.


EDIT: southswell, i understand the 'pulley' effect, but as i said majid is double counting when talking about this AND the weight of the other climber


(This post was edited by patto on Mar 18, 2009, 11:06 AM)


southswell


Mar 18, 2009, 6:04 AM
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Patto,

if a climber is hanging on a piece of pro, the actual force applied to that piece is twice what that climber weighs. One one side, you have the weight of the climber, on the other you have an equal weight applied to hold the climber. The principles are the same in a fall. If a climber falls on lead and applies say 5kN of impact force, the belay must also apply 5kN of force to stop the fall. So the top piece would have to withstand 10kN of force. Of course there are frictions involved that would probably affect the actual amount of force applied by the belayer, but the force placed on the top piece stays the same.

I know that this does not apply directly to the matter at hand, this is just one example of how forces can be multiplied on climbing protection.


vivalargo


Mar 18, 2009, 9:40 AM
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“While I am very hesitant to reply, I would like to know what happened, for closure I guess. I was the third or fourth person on the scene. I am still puzzled by what I saw. The second was about thirty feet up, hanging on what appeared to be the second rope for the third member of the party. The rope was clipped into his haul loop, with no line attached at tie in point! The lead line was hanging near the ground with the first half of a figure 8 near to the ground, and ran through 2 or 3 pieces not far from the top of the formation where the other end appeared to still be. Nothing appeared to be attached to the deceased. Too many unknowns to make conclusions, and while I have my guesses I'll keep them to myself. Hopefully someone can fill in the blanks.

The second was hanging by the line he had been trailing, which was attached to his rear haul loop, not gear loop. It is my understanding that he fell from the top and it is unknown why he stopped after roughly 70 feet.”

This is a start, but to really try and get a fix on what happened, you have to be able to reverse engineer the whole scenario, and usually do a whole lot of noodling and going back and forth with possibilities till one feels right.

With this accident, we have a survivor who – by luck and the grace of God – is already back at work. To me, the above breakdown sounds so bizarre (and not detailed enough) that I’m very hesitant to plow into this till the survivor – or someone who briefed the survivor – chimes in with a first-hand account.

JL


Partner xtrmecat


Mar 18, 2009, 10:10 AM
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  What John said. It should wait till reliable first hand information is at hand. Also there are Woody's friends, and children who are lurking here, mostly trying to grieve and understand what may have happened. Misinformation and conjecture makes this harder for them.
Again, my condolences to the family and friends.
Bob


Adk


Mar 18, 2009, 3:12 PM
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I'm saddened by this news. Another great climber lost....


gblauer
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Mar 18, 2009, 3:20 PM
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Rest in Peace. My condolences to friends and family.


bluering


Mar 18, 2009, 8:21 PM
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Maybe we should wait for details before we take the words of people who showed up after the fact, at face value.

Be patient, AND QUIT TRYING TO WORK THIS OUT WITHOUT PROPER DETAILS!!!!

A lot of people are still hurting from this.

Wait for the accurate details.


Partner robdotcalm


Mar 18, 2009, 9:08 PM
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cfarr wrote:
While I am very hesitant to reply, I would like to know what happened, for closure I guess. I was the third or fourth person on the scene. I am still puzzled by what I saw. The second was about thirty feet up, hanging on what appeared to be the second rope for the third member of the party. The rope was clipped into his haul loop, with no line attached at tie in point! The lead line was hanging near the ground with the first half of a figure 8 near to the ground, and ran through 2 or 3 pieces not far from the top of the formation where the other end appeared to still be. Nothing appeared to be attached to the deceased. Too many unknowns to make conclusions, and while I have my guesses I'll keep them to myself. Hopefully someone can fill in the blanks.
Any information on how the second is doing would be very appreciated.

Thanks for sharing the observations you made when arriving upon the scene of the accident.

Rob.Calm


curt


Mar 18, 2009, 9:13 PM
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bluering wrote:
Maybe we should wait for details before we take the words of people who showed up after the fact, at face value.

Be patient, AND QUIT TRYING TO WORK THIS OUT WITHOUT PROPER DETAILS!!!!

A lot of people are still hurting from this.

Wait for the accurate details.

The details of this accident that have been posted here so far are from another climbing party that was climbing in the same vicinity at the time of the incident--and from another party that arrived on the scene soon after the accident. Unfortunately, these two reports are in serious conflict with one another with respect to many of the specifics of the accident. Obviously, we would all like to have better information.

With that said, perhaps you simply shouldn't read any of the comments that are posted in an "Accident Analysis" forum, if this sort of thing causes you to get your panties all up in a bunch.

Curt


clintcummins


Mar 18, 2009, 9:24 PM
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surfergirl wrote:
i don't know what happened but i agree that the news articles do not sound right. my partner saw him at the TOP of the wall, with his second following. she heard the fall, looked up, and saw the second swinging and the leader was gone. maybe someone with more experience than me can make some sense out of these facts.

Curt, this account by surfergirl does not conflict with the observations by cfarr on page 3 of this thread. These accounts only conflict with initial accident description from the newspaper article, which Wendell on supertopo said was quite inaccurate.

(This post was edited by clintcummins on Mar 18, 2009, 9:26 PM)


curt


Mar 18, 2009, 9:55 PM
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clintcummins wrote:
surfergirl wrote:
i don't know what happened but i agree that the news articles do not sound right. my partner saw him at the TOP of the wall, with his second following. she heard the fall, looked up, and saw the second swinging and the leader was gone. maybe someone with more experience than me can make some sense out of these facts.

Curt, this account by surfergirl does not conflict with the observations by cfarr on page 3 of this thread. These accounts only conflict with initial accident description from the newspaper article, which Wendell on supertopo said was quite inaccurate.

Yes, you are right--and I stand corrected. The reports of all the pulled gear were in the newspaper article and not in surfergirl's accounts of the accident.

Curt


blondgecko
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Mar 18, 2009, 10:00 PM
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Would someone who knew him please start a thread in the "In memory of" forum? I don't think it's really my place to do so.


notapplicable


Mar 18, 2009, 10:17 PM
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blondgecko wrote:
Would someone who knew him please start a thread in the "In memory of" forum? I don't think it's really my place to do so.

I've been thinking the same thing for two days. A lot of people were taken off guard by this one and are forgetting that things are broken down in to injury, analysis and memory for a reason.


ninjakait


Mar 18, 2009, 10:45 PM
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Hey guys,

I understand all of your speculation and curiosity about my father. The CORRECT information will be available for you all to analyze when it is the proper time. Please let us get the man buried before the vultures can swarm down any more.

Thanks.

-Tia


blondgecko
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Mar 18, 2009, 11:00 PM
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ninjakait wrote:
Hey guys,

I understand all of your speculation and curiosity about my father. The CORRECT information will be available for you all to analyze when it is the proper time. Please let us get the man buried before the vultures can swarm down any more.

Thanks.

-Tia

First of all, let me say that I'm very, very sorry for your loss. But please don't look at the speculation in this thread as "vultures swarming". Note that many of the people involved in the questioning and speculation knew your father, and many were friends with him. Asking questions and trying to work out what happened is part of their process of trying to come to terms with his loss.

There is a new thread in the "In Memory Of" forum now. I can promise you that any speculation will be strictly verboten there.


ninjakait


Mar 18, 2009, 11:28 PM
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Thank you for your condolences.

I completely understand the need for a breakdown of events and I meant "vultures" more in the media/people who have no idea kind of way rather than people who are commenting intelligently. Also, when I was stating that the correct information will be available it was because the report out now is completely wrong and to attempt to analyze it would be pointless.


cosmiccragsman


Mar 19, 2009, 12:22 AM
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Hey Tia;
I hope you got my PM on ST
I think I put my ph# in it. If not, Locker has it.



Woody was one of my climbing partners, as also
Tia, and I can state with inside knowledge that
the initial reports are WRONG.

WAIT till The investigation is over and the OFFICIAL version comes out, and then you ALL over here can analyse all you want.


Tia(ninjakait) Locker, Blitzo, and I, put up
a NEW Route today in HONOR of Woody,

It's a GREAT 5 bolt 5.9 called "Thinkin' of the WOODSTER"



See ya soon, Ninja


Cosmic


(This post was edited by cosmiccragsman on Mar 19, 2009, 12:23 AM)


justthemaid


Mar 19, 2009, 6:51 AM
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This was clearly a complicated sequence of events. Everything posted so far is wild conjecture and completely meaningless until a real evaluation comes in from witnesses and people who are qualified to report an accurate accident report.

My condolences Tia. Cosmic and Locker speak often and fondly of you father every time I see them.


Links to a couple memorial threads for Woody on ST.

http://www.supertopo.com/...html?topic_id=808573

http://www.supertopo.com/...html?topic_id=810944


(This post was edited by justthemaid on Mar 19, 2009, 7:00 AM)


vivalargo


Mar 19, 2009, 10:28 AM
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     Re: [cosmiccragsman] climber killed in Joshua Tree National Park 3/15 [In reply to]
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cosmiccragsman wrote:
I can state with inside knowledge that the initial reports are WRONG.

WAIT till The investigation is over and the OFFICIAL version comes out, and then you ALL over here can analyse all you want. Cosmic

There has been an "official" report, listed on a Gov. web site. Because that report is so poorly fashioned is partly why people are calling for a more detailed and comprehensive breakdown. There must be some valid reason (strategic, not emotional) that the details are still being withheld.

Remember that both the leader and the second were found totally detached from the lead rope, which so far as Curt and I know, is unprecedented in the history of climbing accidents. It might take a few days to figure out what happened given such unique factors.

JL


shaggy67


Mar 19, 2009, 6:23 PM
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     Re: [majid_sabet] climber killed in Joshua Tree National Park 3/15 [In reply to]
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I have climbed one time with Alfred about a year ago in the same area and he was rehabing from a hiking fall that messed him up pretty bad. Its sad that this has happened but just make sure to climb within your limits


shackkat


Mar 19, 2009, 11:00 PM
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     Re: [shaggy67] climber killed in Joshua Tree National Park 3/15 [In reply to]
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My brother (a firefighter/paramedic) was climbing on the Thin Wall. He and his partner (another firefighter) saw the incident and were the first or second one there. He is completely confused at what he saw. He assisted another climber in getting the other 44yo down. He described the scene to me and I am amazed. cfar is pretty close to what he described.

I'm very sorry for the loss of this rock icon.

Dan
P.S. Climb on Woody. Climb on.


(This post was edited by shackkat on Mar 19, 2009, 11:02 PM)


csproul


Mar 21, 2009, 7:05 AM
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     Re: [jt512] climber killed in Joshua Tree National Park 3/15 [In reply to]
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Was the second climber Al Kwok (it was spelled Kuok in the report)?


jt512


Mar 21, 2009, 7:08 AM
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     Re: [csproul] climber killed in Joshua Tree National Park 3/15 [In reply to]
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csproul wrote:
Was the second climber Al Kwok (it was spelled Kuok in the report)?

Yes.


wallmonkey35


Mar 21, 2009, 7:18 AM
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     Re: [csproul] climber killed in Joshua Tree National Park 3/15 [In reply to]
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Yes, Al Kwok was the second climber involved.


Partner philbox
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Mar 22, 2009, 2:01 AM
Post #103 of 115 (6676 views)
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     Re: [majid_sabet] climber killed in Joshua Tree National Park 3/15 [In reply to]
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I have just removed about half of this thread due to thread drift. Thanks moof for self editing your post, all posts past moof's post and including moof's post have been shifted into the recycle bin.

Please refrain from speculating any further. A climbers perspective report has been promised and I have no doubt it will be forthcoming. Until such time as more facts come to light then let us all simply offer our condolences to Woody and his relatives over in the apropriate forum.

The mods will have no hesitation in removing any off topic posts from this or any other thread in the blue forums.

I hope you all understand the necessity to keep these thread on topic and as near to factual as possible.

Note also that this thread was moved to the mods forum for a short time whilst the above removal of off topic posts wa conducted. Not many mods have been online today, they must all be out climbing.


(This post was edited by philbox on Mar 22, 2009, 2:05 AM)


cosmiccragsman


Mar 22, 2009, 9:05 AM
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     Re: [philbox] climber killed in Joshua Tree National Park 3/15 [In reply to]
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Thank you Philbox!





Cosmic
(a FRIEND of Woodys)


Partner philbox
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Mar 23, 2009, 2:26 AM
Post #109 of 115 (6007 views)
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     Re: [cosmiccragsman] climber killed in Joshua Tree National Park 3/15 [In reply to]
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The mods have decided to lock this thread for the moment. We are more than happy to open it back up when the report is ready to be put up. In the mean time head over to the other forum and lodge your condolences. Here is the link.

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...d;page=unread#unread


Partner philbox
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Apr 5, 2009, 6:59 PM
Post #111 of 115 (4953 views)
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     Re: [philbox] climber killed in Joshua Tree National Park 3/15 [In reply to]
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Thread now unlocked and available to have the report posted here. Please be sensitive in your analysis. Feel free to drill as deep as needed but any posts that the mods deem to be inapropriate will definitely be deleted. We of course do not wish to stifle legitimate debate as to the causes of any accident. It can be a finely balanced line we tread in these types of discussions.


jt512


Apr 5, 2009, 8:38 PM
Post #112 of 115 (4891 views)
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     Re: [philbox] climber killed in Joshua Tree National Park 3/15 [In reply to]
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Please continue discussion of the accident here.

Mods: Please lock this thread. The facts of the accident should be presented at the beginning of the thread, not buried in the middle of a thread after more than 100 posts.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Apr 5, 2009, 10:01 PM)


billl7


Apr 5, 2009, 9:09 PM
Post #113 of 115 (4866 views)
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     Re: [jt512] climber killed in Joshua Tree National Park 3/15 [In reply to]
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I'll second Jay's request. Seems like the appropriate thing to do is have all the facts at the start of the thread.

Bill

Edit: I had not thought of a new thread with facts at the beginning when I asked for this thread to be unlocked. Good idea.


(This post was edited by billl7 on Apr 5, 2009, 9:10 PM)


notapplicable


Apr 5, 2009, 10:34 PM
Post #114 of 115 (4820 views)
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     Re: [billl7] climber killed in Joshua Tree National Park 3/15 [In reply to]
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Agreed. This thread has already been butchered, it's best just to start it anew.


Partner philbox
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Apr 6, 2009, 12:54 AM
Post #115 of 115 (4775 views)
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     Re: [notapplicable] climber killed in Joshua Tree National Park 3/15 [In reply to]
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As per request thread is now locked. Thanks Jay for starting a new thread and stating the facts as is known at this point.


Forums : Climbing Information : Accident and Incident Analysis

 


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