holy mother of false dichotomies, batman. it's not that i don't "agree that the increased sensitivity is worth the tradeoff" it's that i agree with your definition of sensitive, and have never found the palm down method to be lacking in sensitivity. i find no disadvantages in it when compared to palm-up, only advantages. so i think it's better.

i've asked a couple people now in what situations palm up is better, since "situational betterness" keeps getting brought up. so far the answer has been "UHH, ALWAYS!" roight.

Why would you say that when I gave a very specific answer to that question? I was careful to spell out the situations in which it's best. Did you not get it? Do you need me to spell out all the situations in which it's not best, to clarify that the subset I gave is not the same as "always"?

GO

to be frank i'm shocked you say you've never seen anybody lock off like that. it just seems like such a natural hand position to me.

... and i have caught severe falls and i have caught them that way. and my hand stays in position just fine. and it doesn't rotate. and i'm not a gorilla, i'm a 112 lb girl. so i dont think the force is really that overwhelming.

how do i belay on a multipitch when the leader is just leaving the belay? left hand above the device, right hand below... both palm down. usually with the rope directed off the powerpoint until gear is placed. i'm at a loss as to why you asked the question, so maybe you could just tell me the point you're trying to make.

Firstly, I always have a brake hand on the rope. "Temporarily" not having "a hand on it" doesn't fit with in the frame work of this discussion.

Thirdly and on a more serious note, did you read any of the thread? If so, I'd be curious to hear the thoughts of another PUP&Ser on the whole issue of an experience belayer simply sliding their brake hand "up rope" after taking in slack. If the climber were to fall during that second or less when the hand is in motion, will the rope run dangerously out of control before the brake hand can be clamped down and control the the rope? Any thoughts on it being safe or dangerous when performed by an experience belayer? Would you allow someone to belay you using that method?

Anytime you're belaying a leader of around the same weight as you, in which a sensitive belay is required. For example, single pitch well protected sport or trad in which you can see your partner throughout, especially if the climbing is near the leader's limit.

GO

i suppose there's some possibility that i missed it, but what i read was you saying "when you need a more sensitive belay" and then you described what you meant by sensitive.

"when you need a sensitive belay" is not a situation. and shouldn't you always be giving a sensitive belay?

feel free to quote and say "i told you so" if you did, in fact describe a situation. jay seems to be implying that on multipitch before the leader's first piece is an example of a situation. which is, actually a situation, which "when you need a sensitive belay" is, as i said, not.

Anytime you're belaying a leader of around the same weight as you, in which a sensitive belay is required. For example, single pitch well protected sport or trad in which you can see your partner throughout, especially if the climbing is near the leader's limit.

GO

You're talking about having the proximal knuckle of your index finger at your hip, right?

No, I've never seen anyone lock off like that. That forces your elbow straight out to the side, which strikes me as anything but a natural position. If everyone belayed like that, crowded crags would resemble troupes of flamenco dancers.

You've caught factor-2 falls?

With the lead rope clipped through the anchor power point, then what you're doing is fine; but your belay technique should not dictate whether or not you clip the rope through the anchor. If you do not clip the lead rope through the anchor and your brake hand is below the belay device, then, if the leader falls before placing gear, your brake hand will be in the worst possible position to catch a fall, since the impact force will be downward, and hence the braking position upward. In fact, I question whether a typical belayer using any palm-down belay method would be able to catch such a fall. Even if the belayer was able to bring the rope up into the braking position soon enough, the resulting brake hand position seems like a biomechanical nightmare.

An even worse situation for the belayer who keeps the brake hand below the belay device, or locks off straight down instead of at the hip, occurs when the lead rope is not clipped through the anchor, the leader falls above his first piece, and that piece fails, causing an unexpected change of direction of the impact force. I think that the only braking position in which the belayer would have much of a chance at stopping such a fall would be if he were braking at the hip, and then only if the brake hand was holding the rope palm up, for then, when the belayer transitions into an upward lock-off, his hand won't end up in some bizarre orientation.

Prove it.

And by the way, when I climbed with Curt the other day, he realized that he does use his guide hand to stabilize the brake side of the rope in order to maintain a firm grip on the brake side of the rope, even when top rope belaying...

What I told you was that I noticed myself doing this sometimes--as opposed to merely sliding my hand up the rope through a loosened grip. Interestingly, it was when I perceived a higher than normal chance of the climber (you) falling that I found myself doing this.

Curt

yes.


call me a flamenco dancer, then, i guess. i mean, the knuckle is usually a little behind the crest of my hip, but it always seemed natural to me. and i do mean only when locked locked off, i don't mean that as a home position for while belaying when i'm standing on the ground and able to move around.


that's not what you asked. you said "severe falls." and yes, i have. i've caught 60 foot falls from a guy that outweighed me by 80ish pounds.

i see what you are saying, but unless i'm actively feeding a lot, say, clipping slack, my palm-down hand is going to be level with my hip, not in my lap. and that is where it will swiftly return. so if the leader factor-2'd, the rope would be through the device and then across my legs and around part, at least, of my hip. though, no, i've never caught a factor 2.

Yes, but if he factor-2s directly onto your harness, then, I could be wrong, but I don't think that leaving your hand at your hip is going to cut it. To stop the fall you will probably have to brake straight up, with both hands on the brake side of the rope at chest level. With your brake hand initially palm up at your hip, I think you'd have a chance to make the transition to the straight-up position successfully, I think it would be much more difficult to control the fall pulling up with your brake hand holding the rope in a palm-down manner.

Jay

have you ever caught a factor 2? jw if we're both in the realm of the hypothetical or not.

and wouldn't you roll sideways if the leader factor 2'd onto your harness? you'd have the rope pulled tight going to let's just say your left, pressing your left hip down until it's 90 degrees from the ground. at which point "brak[ing] straight up" is going to be to your right. i'm picturing my head still pointed up with my hips perpendicular to the ground, and if i started with my brake hand palm down at my hip, i imagine that i'd end up with the rope across my hip and my hand just shy of my ass crack.

Yes it does. Temporarily not having a brake hand on the rope is exactly what Jay claims the BS belayer does wrong.

Yeah, I've been around for the whole thread. What's a PUP&Ser? If, by that, you mean the BS method - I'm agnostic on it. On the one hand, I don't do it much myself, and I don't think it's the best method. But on the other hand, my experience shows that in order for it to actually work well, you have to be using a rope with such stiff handling that it actually *is* possible to keep your brake hand in real contact with the rope. So I think that Jay is both right (in the general sense) and wrong (in some specific ones) about the BS method being equivalent to taking your hand off the rope.

GO

yes, the eventual net force [of a factor-2 fall] is going to be straight down, but they're not going to fall straight through your lap to the ground, nor will the rope cut through your thigh to drop straight down from your belay loop.

i suppose it does matter if we're talking about a hanging or a stance belay; i was talking about a hanging belay. the climber is going to fall on one side of your other, else they'd be in your lap.

either way, i think my way would hypothetically catch a factor 2 just as well as yours hypothetically would.

palm up or palm down??

If she felt a prying force on her fingers, then she didn't really have the rope locked off. Her hand being out in front of her, instead of at her hip, is consistent with that. It ought to be very difficult to bend the rope over the belay device enough in that position with your palm up.

Jay

No, that's not a situation I'm describing as one where a "sensitive" belay is needed. Belaying a sport climber, whether working a route, or going for a redpoint, though, is.

Jay

have you ever caught a factor 2? jw if we're both in the realm of the hypothetical or not.

No, that's not a situation I'm describing as one where a "sensitive" belay is needed. Belaying a sport climber, whether working a route, or going for a redpoint, though, is.

Jay

Exactly. This falls squarely outside the example I gave for situations requiring a very sensitive belay. If the gear is minimal, and the potential fall is very severe, the most important thing is to brace yourself against the direction of the fall (with your legs), and be prepared to get both hands on the brake strand.

GO

Edited: because I just read Jay's post directly above. If I am belaying from above and directly off my harness, I may well opt to belay palm up.

Curt

If I’ve read his posts correctly rgold has indeed caught factor-2 falls, only once out in the “real world” on a multi-pitch climb, and many times in a controlled atmosphere with sand bags or weights or something of the sort. He highlighted that in the situation where the leader is above the anchor but has not yet placed a piece the belayer should be belaying palm up in order to pull the rope up (towards your chest / head) since the falling climber will be falling past and then below the belayer (coming to a stop below you) - a situation requiring the belayer to pull up and not down on the brakehand side of the rope. Belaying palm down makes this much harder (if not impossible).

But you don’t have to take my word for it, ask rgold or try it yourself at home by pulling the rope up towards your head/chest palm down and then palm up. I've personally done this and also used the palm up method when belaying up a second off my harness, as Jay mentioned.

By the way, I use both palm down and palm up technique depending on the situation.

I will not try to argue that this is the best method over all. In fact, I'm not yet convinced that there necessarily is one method that is best in all situations.