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majid_sabet


May 6, 2009, 9:03 PM
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Re: [JeffZ] Climbing accident in Spokane [In reply to]
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JeffZ wrote:
The climber who fell is a friend of mine; in fact, I was belaying him when this unfortunate accident happened. Sunday morning we met up to practice setting trad gear. He was leading a route called z crack (I think) on the main face of the mini climbing area. The route is a super easy 5.8ish slab/crack climb perfect for practicing trad protection placement. He was about 15' from the top when he decided to "test" his pro by taking a lead fall on it. I reluctantly agreed to catch him. He let go and his cam popped. He fell about 25' and decked on a nasty rock horn ledge about 30' from the toe of the cliff. All I could see was his arm and leg hanging over the edge and he wasn't moving or responding. I anchored the belay, grabbed my extra rope and ran to the top of the cliff to rappel and assist him in any way I could. When I got down to him he was moving and somewhat coherent but had no idea what had just happened. He had a nasty gouge on the back of his head below his helmet that was pouring blood so I put a shirt over it and held pressure on it until it coagulated. I had called 911 and communicated to them that we would need high angle rescue to get him off the ledge safely. It took them about an hour from the time I dialed 911 for the FD special operations to show up and build a system to lower him off the rock. I was extremely impressed with how quickly they were able to evacuate him considering the circumstances. When all was said and done he sustained some skull fractures, a broken nose, a broken clavicle, ruptured spleen (forgot to mention he was vomiting blood), and a broken vertebrae. Fortunately none of his injuries will require surgery, just a few days in the neuro-trauma center and a few months to recover. Not bad considering the extent of his injuries. I am still perplexed as to how he could have possibly survived even with the helmet. Without it he would have died right there on the rock. I spoke with him today and he may be home as soon as tomorrow. He's expected to make a full recovery and be back climbing by the end of the summer. I learned a lot from the experience: 1-always wear a helmet when lead climbing trad or sport 2- anchor lead belays you may need to quickly anchor and escape them to help an injured climber 3- Not a bad idea to have an extra rope 4- Don't intentionally fall on your protection

alright

Now its my time to pick on this incident so; what if YOU the belayer who is reading this post were some 1.5 hours away from the parking lot and this event happened 10 minutes before dusk. The 911 just informetd you that your SOL for good 1-2 hours or so cause the rescue team is working on another incident getting another two climbers out .

So

Do you know how to escape a belay ?
how about climbing skills where you could climb to top of the ledge by yourself to check out your friend ?
did you carry any jumars with you ? I am sure you had at lease a bunch of prussic right? ( if not,I give a hint, you could your fuc*ing shoe laces in SOL situations as prusic).
how were you going to self belay to the top?
how about lowering your partner from top?
did you have another extra rope ?
how about extra protections to build another anchor from top?
did you have extra clothing or you were on your typical summer shirt and shorts? its getting cold
how about a first aid kit ?
any LED light ? I am sure you did not have one cause this was suppose to be an hour practice
any first aid training like CPR?

and a bunch of more but this should keep you going.

PM your answer so i know how prepared you were.

MS


(This post was edited by majid_sabet on May 6, 2009, 9:04 PM)


JeffZ


May 6, 2009, 9:32 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Climbing accident in Spokane [In reply to]
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I know how to escape and anchor a belay and did so.
There is an easy scramble route to the top of the cliff.
I carry enough purlin to strangle every member of the Chinese army
I didn't think it was wise to lower him because I was unaware of the extent of his injuries
I had an extra rope. I used it to rappel down to him
I had my pack full of protection, webbing, anchor rope etc.
I carry my headlamp that can be seen from outer space
I carry a burly first aid kit
Had extra clothing, used it to cover him
I have had extensive training in first aid. I plugged the hole in his head to keep him from bleeding to death.
Ex-military so I can give CPR to someone without a face.

I was well prepared FOR an accident, not so much to prevent one.


burrito


May 6, 2009, 10:45 PM
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Re: [JeffZ] Climbing accident in Spokane [In reply to]
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While I agree that this scenario raises some real red flags, and while I agree that constructive criticism can be a handy tool in helping climbers sort out their mistakes and not make them in the future, I don't agree that this guy deserves the "shit storm" that has befallen him. He was the first person to respond to the thread. He was the first person to respond to the scene. He was far more competent in his response to his partner's injuries than I think a lot of people would have been, and he really deserves credit for that.

So because I'm admittedly not qualified to give the kind of constructive criticism I mentioned above, I'm just going to say that I think the belayer should be commended for his post-accident actions, and that perhaps people should think about how effective it is to berate someone as an idiot and a moron, versus actually providing some good advice to that person in order to reduce the number of times accidents like this happen...


majid_sabet


May 6, 2009, 11:29 PM
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Re: [JeffZ] Climbing accident in Spokane [In reply to]
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JeffZ wrote:
I know how to escape and anchor a belay and did so.
There is an easy scramble route to the top of the cliff.
I carry enough purlin to strangle every member of the Chinese army
I didn't think it was wise to lower him because I was unaware of the extent of his injuries
I had an extra rope. I used it to rappel down to him
I had my pack full of protection, webbing, anchor rope etc.
I carry my headlamp that can be seen from outer space
I carry a burly first aid kit
Had extra clothing, used it to cover him
I have had extensive training in first aid. I plugged the hole in his head to keep him from bleeding to death.
Ex-military so I can give CPR to someone without a face.

I was well prepared FOR an accident, not so much to prevent one.

ok

you passed

but how about your buddy ?


Johnny_Fang


May 6, 2009, 11:54 PM
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Re: [burrito] Climbing accident in Spokane [In reply to]
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burrito wrote:
While I agree that this scenario raises some real red flags, and while I agree that constructive criticism can be a handy tool in helping climbers sort out their mistakes and not make them in the future, I don't agree that this guy deserves the "shit storm" that has befallen him. He was the first person to respond to the thread. He was the first person to respond to the scene. He was far more competent in his response to his partner's injuries than I think a lot of people would have been, and he really deserves credit for that.

So because I'm admittedly not qualified to give the kind of constructive criticism I mentioned above, I'm just going to say that I think the belayer should be commended for his post-accident actions, and that perhaps people should think about how effective it is to berate someone as an idiot and a moron, versus actually providing some good advice to that person in order to reduce the number of times accidents like this happen...

i agree. sadly, people love to point fingers and play monday morning quarterback. it is also interesting that our analyses of these accidents are often shaded by a climber's reputation. the tragic recent deadly accident in joshua tree, for instance, speaks of much more serious and avoidable mistakes than simply fall-testing your gear placements when backed-up by a bolt (but horribly miscalculating fall distance). yet no one in the joshua tree incident thread, that i can recall anyway, was saying anyone was a "moron," probably because the person making the very simple mistake (that could have cost two lives) was well-known.

everyone who is slinging terms like 'moron' are simply revealing overconfidence in their own abilities. overconfidence is a major risk-enhancer, but humility decreases risk. plus it makes you a much more desirable friend to have around.


patto


May 6, 2009, 11:55 PM
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Re: [burrito] Climbing accident in Spokane [In reply to]
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burrito wrote:
While I agree that this scenario raises some real red flags, and while I agree that constructive criticism can be a handy tool in helping climbers sort out their mistakes and not make them in the future, I don't agree that this guy deserves the "shit storm" that has befallen him. He was the first person to respond to the thread. He was the first person to respond to the scene. He was far more competent in his response to his partner's injuries than I think a lot of people would have been, and he really deserves credit for that.

So because I'm admittedly not qualified to give the kind of constructive criticism I mentioned above, I'm just going to say that I think the belayer should be commended for his post-accident actions, and that perhaps people should think about how effective it is to berate someone as an idiot and a moron, versus actually providing some good advice to that person in order to reduce the number of times accidents like this happen...

GREAT POST!

JeffZ please ignore the others like Majid and Roadstead. Thanks for posting and letting us know the facts.

It sounds like you handled the situation very well.


k.l.k


May 7, 2009, 12:39 AM
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Re: [Johnny_Fang] Climbing accident in Spokane [In reply to]
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First, I hope the injured climber recovers well without long-term consequences. And I don't like flaming in threads treating serious accidents.

But since so many n00bies lurk these threads, I have to comment on this:

Johnny_Fang wrote:
it is also interesting that our analyses of these accidents are often shaded by a climber's reputation. the tragic recent deadly accident in joshua tree, for instance, speaks of much more serious and avoidable mistakes than simply fall-testing your gear placements when backed-up by a bolt (but horribly miscalculating fall distance).

We all make stupid errors at one time or another, and most of us who have climbed for any length of time have at least occasionally gotten away with the general sort of mistakes that led to Woody's death. To say that those sorts of mistakes are more "avoidable" than "fall-testing your gear placements" on a ledgy practice crag is a bit much.

Climbers who are still at a stage in which they need to dedicate time to practicing their "trad gear" placement, should not be hucking volunteer lobs. That ought to be one of the lessons retrieved from this sort of event. That falls on ledgy or featured walls are more dangerous than falls on clean overhangs, and so should be avoided as much as possible, should be another.


curt


May 7, 2009, 12:55 AM
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Re: [patto] Climbing accident in Spokane [In reply to]
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patto wrote:
...JeffZ please ignore the others like Majid and Roadstead...

That has to be the worst advice in this entire thread.

Curt


(This post was edited by curt on May 8, 2009, 2:57 AM)


shockabuku


May 7, 2009, 3:19 AM
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Re: [Johnny_Fang] Climbing accident in Spokane [In reply to]
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Johnny_Fang wrote:
our analyses of these accidents

The big difference in this case, I think, is that it was not an accident, it was an on purpose that went bad.


oddsends


May 7, 2009, 3:39 AM
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Re: [curt] Climbing accident in Spokane [In reply to]
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curt wrote:
... you guys fully deserve the shit storm that has come your way--because this accident was completely avoidable and occurred solely due to your collective stupidity. You guys may want to seriously consider a different hobby.

Curt
For the climber, yes
For the belayer, no

It was not Jeff's choice for his partner to jump. In fact he states that he "reluctantly agreed to catch him." Yikes!! So how is it Jeff's fault that his partner decided to jump?


Johnny_Fang


May 7, 2009, 4:55 AM
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Re: [shockabuku] Climbing accident in Spokane [In reply to]
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shockabuku wrote:
Johnny_Fang wrote:
our analyses of these accidents

The big difference in this case, I think, is that it was not an accident, it was an on purpose that went bad.

Most climbing accidents are on purposes that go bad. Woody wanted his mate to lower him--on purpose--and didn't stop to think that he hadn't tied his mate in. Or if he did think about it, he accidentally miscalculated. Not tying in to an anchor is a pretty huge mistake. Todd Skinner was hanging by his belay loop--on purpose--and didn't stop to think that he had just ordered a new harness because his belay loop was just about worn through. Or if he did think about it, he accidentally miscalculated. Not backing up his belay loop when he knew it was heavily frayed is a pretty huge mistake.

This guy in Spokane fell on his gear--on purpose--with a bolt/draw below it, but he didn't stop to think about how much rope he had out and how far he would fall. Or if he did think about it, he accidentally miscalculated. He's lucky he had a friend there to save his life. This was, indeed, an accident in just the same sense as Woody and Todd.


milesenoell


May 7, 2009, 5:02 AM
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Re: [shockabuku] Climbing accident in Spokane [In reply to]
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shockabuku wrote:

The big difference in this case, I think, is that it was not an accident, it was an on purpose that went bad.


The above comment is so true it bears repeating. Risk management is part of climbing, but this was NOT an example of good faith risk management. This wasn't an accident, and as such could have been set up any way they wanted. The climber chose ("on purpose") to take this fall in this situation. Even if the piece had held this was a foolish risk to take simply because there was an easy way to find out the same information with much less risk (for example: use the second rope as a TR set to catch the fall only if the cam blows).

I can totally sympathize with wanting to know if your placements are good enough to catch a fall, but there are better ways to find out.


milesenoell


May 7, 2009, 5:05 AM
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Re: [Johnny_Fang] Climbing accident in Spokane [In reply to]
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Johnny_Fang wrote:
shockabuku wrote:
Johnny_Fang wrote:
our analyses of these accidents

The big difference in this case, I think, is that it was not an accident, it was an on purpose that went bad.

Most climbing accidents are on purposes that go bad. Woody wanted his mate to lower him--on purpose--and didn't stop to think that he hadn't tied his mate in. Or if he did think about it, he accidentally miscalculated. Not tying in to an anchor is a pretty huge mistake. Todd Skinner was hanging by his belay loop--on purpose--and didn't stop to think that he had just ordered a new harness because his belay loop was just about worn through. Or if he did think about it, he accidentally miscalculated. Not backing up his belay loop when he knew it was heavily frayed is a pretty huge mistake.

This guy in Spokane fell on his gear--on purpose--with a bolt/draw below it, but he didn't stop to think about how much rope he had out and how far he would fall. Or if he did think about it, he accidentally miscalculated. He's lucky he had a friend there to save his life. This was, indeed, an accident in just the same sense as Woody and Todd.

I so totally disagree I'm not sure where to begin.


curt


May 7, 2009, 6:15 AM
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Re: [oddsends] Climbing accident in Spokane [In reply to]
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oddsends wrote:
curt wrote:
... you guys fully deserve the shit storm that has come your way--because this accident was completely avoidable and occurred solely due to your collective stupidity. You guys may want to seriously consider a different hobby.

Curt
For the climber, yes
For the belayer, no

It was not Jeff's choice for his partner to jump. In fact he states that he "reluctantly agreed to catch him." Yikes!! So how is it Jeff's fault that his partner decided to jump?

Perhaps he should not have agreed. Duh.

Curt


ryanb


May 7, 2009, 6:31 AM
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Re: [Johnny_Fang] Climbing accident in Spokane [In reply to]
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Johnny_Fang wrote:
shockabuku wrote:
Johnny_Fang wrote:
our analyses of these accidents

The big difference in this case, I think, is that it was not an accident, it was an on purpose that went bad.

Most climbing accidents are on purposes that go bad. Woody wanted his mate to lower him--on purpose--and didn't stop to think that he hadn't tied his mate in. Or if he did think about it, he accidentally miscalculated. Not tying in to an anchor is a pretty huge mistake. Todd Skinner was hanging by his belay loop--on purpose--and didn't stop to think that he had just ordered a new harness because his belay loop was just about worn through. Or if he did think about it, he accidentally miscalculated. Not backing up his belay loop when he knew it was heavily frayed is a pretty huge mistake.

This guy in Spokane fell on his gear--on purpose--with a bolt/draw below it, but he didn't stop to think about how much rope he had out and how far he would fall. Or if he did think about it, he accidentally miscalculated. He's lucky he had a friend there to save his life. This was, indeed, an accident in just the same sense as Woody and Todd.

I really strongly agree with these sentiments. I don't take intentional falls but every time i lead something at my limit I accept that there is a good chance I will fall and i see no difference.

It is a lot easier to read about an accident like this and think "this could never happen to me, i am too experienced and too smart" then to realize how close we all come to this kind of thing.

Sure an intentional fall was a bad idea in this case but I know for a fact that every experienced climber on this site has done something as stupid and lots of us do so on a somewhat regular basis.

I've met experienced, 5.13 climbing, full time guides who took hard ledge falls on easy 5.10 slab. The most serious accidents i have been personally connected to both involved very experienced 5.13 climbers soloing far far below their limits.

Be aware of ledges and rope stretch, back up gear and learn to place good gear are good lesson but most of us know those things.

I think that the most important lesson all of us can be reminded of by this is that shit happens and if you are going to be pushing your limits be vigilant and make sure your partner is a vigilant levelheaded individual who knows his or her stuff, as Jeff seams to.

Jeff, I know what you mean about going over it over and over again in your head.

Years ago, early in my career as a leader, on my first climbing trip without an adult I caught a 60 foot fall when a friend pulled two pieces and bounced past the belay ledge. He was pretty beat up, as was the third member of our party who he hit on the way by, but we self rescued and made up a cover story to tell our parents.

The other two quit climbing entirely and I quite rope climbing and bouldered for a year.


markc


May 7, 2009, 1:50 PM
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Re: [curt] Climbing accident in Spokane [In reply to]
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curt wrote:
oddsends wrote:
curt wrote:
... you guys fully deserve the shit storm that has come your way--because this accident was completely avoidable and occurred solely due to your collective stupidity. You guys may want to seriously consider a different hobby.

Curt
For the climber, yes
For the belayer, no

It was not Jeff's choice for his partner to jump. In fact he states that he "reluctantly agreed to catch him." Yikes!! So how is it Jeff's fault that his partner decided to jump?

Perhaps he should not have agreed. Duh.

Curt

What's the alternative? I'm interested in your perspective. Once I assume the responsibility to belay, I'm on the job until I'm released. I would strongly discourage someone from taking test falls in that situation, but telling my partner I won't catch the fall violates the pact between climber and belayer.

If being an ass or making the wrong call while climbing were grounds for belayers to quit mid-route, we all might as well free-solo.


shockabuku


May 7, 2009, 2:33 PM
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markc wrote:
curt wrote:
oddsends wrote:
curt wrote:
... you guys fully deserve the shit storm that has come your way--because this accident was completely avoidable and occurred solely due to your collective stupidity. You guys may want to seriously consider a different hobby.

Curt
For the climber, yes
For the belayer, no

It was not Jeff's choice for his partner to jump. In fact he states that he "reluctantly agreed to catch him." Yikes!! So how is it Jeff's fault that his partner decided to jump?

Perhaps he should not have agreed. Duh.

Curt

What's the alternative? I'm interested in your perspective. Once I assume the responsibility to belay, I'm on the job until I'm released. I would strongly discourage someone from taking test falls in that situation, but telling my partner I won't catch the fall violates the pact between climber and belayer.

If being an ass or making the wrong call while climbing were grounds for belayers to quit mid-route, we all might as well free-solo.

Don't fucking agree. Not even reluctantly. He knew it was a bad idea.

Part of the climber/belayer pact is for the leader not to do things that endanger the team.


markc


May 7, 2009, 2:35 PM
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shockabuku wrote:
markc wrote:
curt wrote:
oddsends wrote:
curt wrote:
... you guys fully deserve the shit storm that has come your way--because this accident was completely avoidable and occurred solely due to your collective stupidity. You guys may want to seriously consider a different hobby.

Curt
For the climber, yes
For the belayer, no

It was not Jeff's choice for his partner to jump. In fact he states that he "reluctantly agreed to catch him." Yikes!! So how is it Jeff's fault that his partner decided to jump?

Perhaps he should not have agreed. Duh.

Curt

What's the alternative? I'm interested in your perspective. Once I assume the responsibility to belay, I'm on the job until I'm released. I would strongly discourage someone from taking test falls in that situation, but telling my partner I won't catch the fall violates the pact between climber and belayer.

If being an ass or making the wrong call while climbing were grounds for belayers to quit mid-route, we all might as well free-solo.

Don't fucking agree. Not even reluctantly. He knew it was a bad idea.

Part of the climber/belayer pact is for the leader not to do things that endanger the team.

Not agreeing means the climber is off belay. You're cool with that?


shockabuku


May 7, 2009, 2:41 PM
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markc wrote:
shockabuku wrote:
markc wrote:
curt wrote:
oddsends wrote:
curt wrote:
... you guys fully deserve the shit storm that has come your way--because this accident was completely avoidable and occurred solely due to your collective stupidity. You guys may want to seriously consider a different hobby.

Curt
For the climber, yes
For the belayer, no

It was not Jeff's choice for his partner to jump. In fact he states that he "reluctantly agreed to catch him." Yikes!! So how is it Jeff's fault that his partner decided to jump?

Perhaps he should not have agreed. Duh.

Curt

What's the alternative? I'm interested in your perspective. Once I assume the responsibility to belay, I'm on the job until I'm released. I would strongly discourage someone from taking test falls in that situation, but telling my partner I won't catch the fall violates the pact between climber and belayer.

If being an ass or making the wrong call while climbing were grounds for belayers to quit mid-route, we all might as well free-solo.

Don't fucking agree. Not even reluctantly. He knew it was a bad idea.

Part of the climber/belayer pact is for the leader not to do things that endanger the team.

Not agreeing means the climber is off belay. You're cool with that?

If that's what it takes to make my point. I enter in to partnerships with the implicit understanding that it's a team that takes care of each other. When the other person starts acting stupid for no good reason, the partnership is over. But, I don't think he had to go that far. He agreed to catch his unnecessary fall. He shouldn't have. Hell, you can tell it's a dicked up situation when a climber has to ask his belayer to catch his fall anyway.


k.l.k


May 7, 2009, 3:15 PM
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Re: [ryanb] Climbing accident in Spokane [In reply to]
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ryanb wrote:
Johnny_Fang wrote:
shockabuku wrote:
Johnny_Fang wrote:
our analyses of these accidents

The big difference in this case, I think, is that it was not an accident, it was an on purpose that went bad.

Most climbing accidents are on purposes that go bad. Woody wanted his mate to lower him--on purpose--and didn't stop to think that he hadn't tied his mate in. Or if he did think about it, he accidentally miscalculated. Not tying in to an anchor is a pretty huge mistake. Todd Skinner was hanging by his belay loop--on purpose--and didn't stop to think that he had just ordered a new harness because his belay loop was just about worn through. Or if he did think about it, he accidentally miscalculated. Not backing up his belay loop when he knew it was heavily frayed is a pretty huge mistake.

This guy in Spokane fell on his gear--on purpose--with a bolt/draw below it, but he didn't stop to think about how much rope he had out and how far he would fall. Or if he did think about it, he accidentally miscalculated. He's lucky he had a friend there to save his life. This was, indeed, an accident in just the same sense as Woody and Todd.

I really strongly agree with these sentiments. I don't take intentional falls but every time i lead something at my limit I accept that there is a good chance I will fall and i see no difference.

Most of us see a very large difference. In almost thirty years of climbing, I have known many competent, experienced climbers who unknowingly screwed up by not finishing their knot or clipping the wrong rope. Most of those incidents turned out ok. A few turned out tragically.

In almost thirty years of climbing, in the US, Canada, and Europe, I have never, ever known a competent, experienced climber who injured (or nearly injured) themselves by hucking volunteer lobs on ledgy, low-angle terrain.

That's the difference. Hearing about Woody's accident (or Angry's near miss), most of us on this site with both competence and experience could nod and say, yeah, I need to watch and make sure I don't mess up something like that.

But neither I nor, I am willing to bet, Curt or RGold or Angry or DMT or anyone else I can think of at the moment, is likely to look at this episode and say, yeah, that could've been me. Because it couldn't have been. No one I know or have ever known who is both competent and experienced would play crash test dummy in that scenario.

As best as I can tell from your post, you wouldn't have either. Your argument is that an involuntary fall is equivalent to a volunteer lob. But it isn't. Involuntary falls occur to n00bies because they are n00bs and have to survive a certain amount of time during which they are always in the death zone simply because they are n00bies. After they've acquired experience and competence, they may move into a new zone, one in which they are willing to take calculated risks on particular climbs in order to succeed.

But no one competent is going to deliberately court those risks in simple training situations-- who would just go out and stand in the shooting-gallery couloir to see if their helmet could turn a falling rock? Who is going to huck a volunteer lob on ledgy ground just to see what would happen if their gear pulled?

In my life, I've known maybe two folks who were skilled climbers but who also would do those sorts of things. They both died young, and foolishly, and pointlessly, without having ever lived up to their talent.


Edit to correct my pre-coffee typos.


(This post was edited by k.l.k on May 7, 2009, 3:37 PM)


curt


May 7, 2009, 3:20 PM
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Re: [k.l.k] Climbing accident in Spokane [In reply to]
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Yes--exactly. Very well put, Kerwin.

Curt

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