|
jt512
Jul 30, 2009, 4:05 AM
Post #201 of 810
(3137 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
karmiclimber wrote: the male climber tends to be selfish and self centered.
I am not!
In reply to: [T]he male climber does not mind if his gf ... never progresses in climbing.
I think that that is completely wrong. Even for essentially selfish reasons it would be nice for the guy's gf to be climbing at about the same level as the guy. The ability to project the same routes would be both convenient and enhancing to the relationship (as long as she doesn't start sending first too often, of course).
In reply to: I am talking about the stereotypical male climber here.
I would hope so, since you keep referring to "the male climber."
Jay
|
|
|
|
|
yankinoz
Jul 30, 2009, 4:05 AM
Post #202 of 810
(3136 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 28, 2007
Posts: 35
|
FWIW - a girl got me involved in climbing. One of my ex gf's who I introduced to climbing is still climbing - I think leads in the mid 5.10s now. My wife comes climbing with me sometimes. She enjoys it but doesn't push herself really hard - she is just starting to show some interest in leading so... yeah I'm looking for something for her to climb - but not cuz she's a girl. I've spent many an outing as rope gun for newer male climbers and I enjoy those days as much as the days when I'm pushing my limits.
|
|
|
|
|
karmiclimber
Jul 30, 2009, 4:15 AM
Post #203 of 810
(3129 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 11, 2004
Posts: 1058
|
Honestly Jay...I'm arguing a tiny battle that is one small part of a war. Or seeing the trees for the forest. SOMETHING that indicates I'm ignoring the larger problem and I just want to stick it to the man after reading in the ladies room about a woman who was wondering if she should give up blow drying her hair because her bf didn't like it and being at the red for a couple of days and witnessing douchery on the part of male climbers to their gf climbing partners and I need to just go to bed and sleep. Yell at me about punctuation TOMORROW.
|
|
|
|
|
kriso9tails
Jul 30, 2009, 4:30 AM
Post #204 of 810
(3084 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 1, 2001
Posts: 7772
|
karmiclimber wrote: LOL. You are a peach. Basically you agree with what I'm saying but in a super argumentative way.
I was mostly agreeing from the get go; it just wasn't entirely clear to me what you were saying exactly. It was much clearer hearing it as a matter of personal experience.
As I said, I'm well aware of the type of thing you're talking about, but thinking about it now, I suppose these are the sorts of guys I've actively avoided where possible. It seems like at least three quarters of them that I've encountered were first met kicking, screaming, swearing and making bullshit excuses all because they kept overestimating their abilities.
I started climbing before I was a teen. One of my main climbing partners was my mom who was in her early forties at the time. I got the 'best of' tour of sexism and ageism in climbing right when I started out. It was curious in some cases when someone at the crag was clearly trying to figure out which one of us was the tag-along and couldn't come to a conclusion. The correct answer was 'neither'. Some areas were definitely worse than others.
In reply to: And the point of what I was saying...the male climber does not mind if his gf (no, I am obviously not talking about the woman who found her way into climbing through means of her own, either by platonic male friends, other females, etc) never progresses in climbing.
I'm talking about the same women as you. I'm just saying that there's a practical reality that the onus gets shoved on the woman to decide what's more important: her climbing or his ego? A guy who's being a dick isn't likely to just snap out of it so easily, especially if he doesn't realize what he's doing. Maybe if he's not really a bad guy it can all be talked out, but it seems that girls I've know in that situation have generally moved on to other climbing partners (even if they stayed in the relationship). It's not really a disagreement with you per se.
Regardless of gender though, I do require a partner to be honest about what they want with their climbing. Yeah, okay, I've forced the odd person onto the sharp end (my mom included) because I knew they were holding back too much, but in general I'd rather be an enabler than a pusher.
(This post was edited by kriso9tails on Jul 30, 2009, 4:50 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
kriso9tails
Jul 30, 2009, 4:37 AM
Post #205 of 810
(3076 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 1, 2001
Posts: 7772
|
jt512 wrote: In reply to: [T]he male climber does not mind if his gf ... never progresses in climbing. I think that that is completely wrong. Even for essentially selfish reasons it would be nice for the guy's gf to be climbing at about the same level as the guy. The ability to project the same routes would be both convenient and enhancing to the relationship (as long as she doesn't start sending first too often, of course).
I've always wanted to date a girl that climbed at least a half number grade harder than me. She could hang draws for me or perhaps clean them if I couldn't finish the route.
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Jul 30, 2009, 4:50 AM
Post #206 of 810
(3063 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
kriso9tails wrote: jt512 wrote: In reply to: [T]he male climber does not mind if his gf ... never progresses in climbing. I think that that is completely wrong. Even for essentially selfish reasons it would be nice for the guy's gf to be climbing at about the same level as the guy. The ability to project the same routes would be both convenient and enhancing to the relationship (as long as she doesn't start sending first too often, of course). I've always wanted to date a girl that climbed at least a half number grade harder than me. She could hang draws for me or perhaps clean them if I couldn't finish the route.
My first regular sport climbing partner was a woman who climbed at least a number grade harder than me. Needless to say, being male, I've since left her in the dust.
(This is fun)
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jul 30, 2009, 4:54 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
yankinoz
Jul 30, 2009, 5:18 AM
Post #207 of 810
(3044 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 28, 2007
Posts: 35
|
this is heaps more interesting that the OP
|
|
|
|
|
caughtinside
Jul 30, 2009, 6:10 AM
Post #208 of 810
(3033 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 8, 2003
Posts: 30603
|
crap, I can't believe I read this whole thing. What a steaming pile!! I'd have to say camhead and j_ung hit it pretty close.
I do have to say though, regarding the original blog post (which I agree was terrible, old news, pompous and self righteous) is interesting in that it complains about PEOPLE. In the OUTDOORS.
Dude, you are a GUIDE. You make your living taking PEOPLE into the OUTDOORS.
So I guess that's the hypocrite angle. You're selling out what you love so you can do what you love. Be careful you don't become a sanctimonious bitch (don't banz me bro!) when you're with your clients or you won't last long.
|
|
|
|
|
MS1
Jul 30, 2009, 1:44 PM
Post #209 of 810
(3005 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 24, 2009
Posts: 560
|
Karmiclimber: You win the Best Threadjack of the Year award. Battle of the Sexes beats Tired Ethics Discussion hands down.
On the [threadjacked] topic: I think there is a lot of truth to what you say; plenty of sexism at the gym and at the crag. (Don't get me started about this guy from Illinois who joined our group last time we were at the Red, and who spent the whole time making everyone uncomfortable with his weird sexist rambling.) But honestly, I've seen a fair amount of the opposite: female climbers who would rather use bfs/male friends as rope guns than push themselves above bolts or gear. I know that I would love it if some of my female climbing partners would take an interest in leading more routes, even if they stuck to 5.easy.
It seems to me that both genders could amend their ways a bit. Guys, as you say, could push female climbing partners a bit more, and expect of them what they would expect of any climbing partner. But plenty of women (not all, mind you) could also improve things, just by taking more ownership of their time at the crag. Pick some routes for the day, and insist on leading them. If people object because they want to climb harder, then split up the day between your goals and their goals.
|
|
|
|
|
karmiclimber
Jul 30, 2009, 1:50 PM
Post #210 of 810
(3004 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 11, 2004
Posts: 1058
|
Both of you guys (kriso and jay) are on the west coast (I dunno about born and raised)...I know west coast women are better in general about this sort of thing. But I have definitely seen it out there too.
And Jay...how long had you been climbing before your first regular sport climbing partner came along? I climb a lot harder than my bf...but thats kind've to be expected at this point.
I think its really cool that your mom taught you to climb kriso...I'm already teaching my daughter.
|
|
|
|
|
karmiclimber
Jul 30, 2009, 1:52 PM
Post #211 of 810
(3001 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 11, 2004
Posts: 1058
|
LMAO. This isn't the first time I've done this. I'm basically the majid sabet of the battle of the sexes. Before you know it there will be diagrams and arrows. Then rockclimbing.com will give me my own forum so I don't have to annoy the shit out of everyone every time I get my dander up.
|
|
|
|
|
MS1
Jul 30, 2009, 2:00 PM
Post #212 of 810
(2992 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 24, 2009
Posts: 560
|
I am seriously stoked to see some diagrams and arrows! Seriously, this thread needs some MSPaint action, stat.
|
|
|
|
|
spanishbombs
Jul 30, 2009, 2:18 PM
Post #213 of 810
(2969 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 1, 2009
Posts: 13
|
Gmburns2000 wrote: My personal feeling is that bolted rap anchors are less about convenience and more about the efforts to protect the more fragile grass and trees (because rocks are dead). I'd much rather see a bolted anchor than a tat around a tree or a walkoff across through grasslands at the top of the cliff.
This is a very good rationale to put up anchors, even when most would consider them unneeded.
|
|
|
|
|
Toast_in_the_Machine
Jul 30, 2009, 2:27 PM
Post #214 of 810
(2964 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 12, 2008
Posts: 5208
|
karmiclimber wrote: Both of you guys (kriso and jay) are on the west coast (I dunno about born and raised)...I know west coast women are better in general about this sort of thing. But I have definitely seen it out there too.
We all carry biases based on gender, apperance, and place of origon. Hold them strong enough and they become a stereotype.
Be careful of regional stereotypes, or you might get classed with those who make gender stereotypes.
|
|
|
|
|
Gmburns2000
Jul 30, 2009, 2:36 PM
Post #215 of 810
(2962 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 6, 2007
Posts: 15266
|
karmiclimber wrote: No need to get defensive. Honestly...but to me as a woman, brotherhood does not feel gender non specific. Maybe thats just me personally. I dunno, it always feel like when I bring this sort of thing up I'm brushed aside as arguing semantics and all of the men are groaning like "oh another feminist rock climber. thats NEW. HAHAHA." I don't really care, but it does make me feel a little excluded.
I wasn't getting defensive, just explaining that the English language doesn't really have gender-neutrality (at least not neutrality that isn't contrived for a specific intent), and that historically the masculine word has been used more for neutrality than the feminine form, that's all. It doesn't make it morally right, but it technically isn't wrong either.
BTW - I think you need to find a different climbing circle. The women who climb in my climbing circle are all strong leaders, both on sport and trad. This includes my partner. She and I switch leads all the time, and this summer she is WAY outclimbing me, too. She used to me more than a climbing partner, too, so the whole BF / GF thing doesn't quite resonate with me. And not only do we switch leads, but I expect her to carry her own weight, as she does expect me to carry my own weight. If you're finding guys who don't do that then you need to find better guys.
And to boot, the men in my climbing circle do climb harder than the women, and they are all married (were BF / GF before that, obviously), and the women still climb hard, and the women still lead, and the women still lead what they want, and the men still lead what they want, and...following me?
I really don't see the discrimination that you're suggesting where I'm at. I'm not saying it doesn't exist for you, I'm just saying I've found a fairly large climbing circle where that doesn't exist. I'm talking of at least a dozen male-female partnerships in my immediate area that work really, really well.
|
|
|
|
|
Gmburns2000
Jul 30, 2009, 2:43 PM
Post #216 of 810
(2958 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 6, 2007
Posts: 15266
|
kriso9tails wrote: jt512 wrote: In reply to: [T]he male climber does not mind if his gf ... never progresses in climbing. I think that that is completely wrong. Even for essentially selfish reasons it would be nice for the guy's gf to be climbing at about the same level as the guy. The ability to project the same routes would be both convenient and enhancing to the relationship (as long as she doesn't start sending first too often, of course). I've always wanted to date a girl that climbed at least a half number grade harder than me. She could hang draws for me or perhaps clean them if I couldn't finish the route.
Yeah, me too. Climbing for me is more about getting away than it is pushing the grades. I couldn't care less if my female partner outclimbed me. Oh yeah, that's right, my current female climbing partner is outclimbing me this summer. Swweeeeet 
|
|
|
|
|
Gmburns2000
Jul 30, 2009, 2:47 PM
Post #217 of 810
(2956 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 6, 2007
Posts: 15266
|
spanishbombs wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: My personal feeling is that bolted rap anchors are less about convenience and more about the efforts to protect the more fragile grass and trees (because rocks are dead). I'd much rather see a bolted anchor than a tat around a tree or a walkoff across through grasslands at the top of the cliff. This is a very good rationale to put up anchors, even when most would consider them unneeded.
You know, I've always thought this, and I think it stems from my experience climbing in Europe where bolted anchors (or just bolts in general) are far more accepted.
It's weird, but my preference is to have as few bolts as possible on the climb with an appropriate amount of bolted anchors for the descent. In other words, let's protect the ecosystem without going overboard by bolting everything in sight.
But again, the adventure for me is the actual climbing. Some people find adventure in hiking, too. For me, a hike is the approach. 
|
|
|
|
|
chadnsc
Jul 30, 2009, 2:56 PM
Post #218 of 810
(2950 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 24, 2003
Posts: 4449
|
This tread has gone on way to long without some type of visual aid to help clarify the OP's point.
|
|
|
|
|
happiegrrrl
Jul 30, 2009, 3:04 PM
Post #219 of 810
(2934 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 25, 2004
Posts: 4660
|
I have seen, on occasion, the guy who brings his new g/f climbing for her first time, and puts her on something he might have know there was a small likelihood of success. Or goes up a route with a roof and doesn't give any tips on technique. Or a route with a traverse, which he didn't adequately protect. It doesn't take experience in climbing to understand, as you are looking at following a traverse, what happens in a fall....
And then the girl gets scared, or falls off that roof and dangles in space, or flails on the thin stiffly graded face route.....
Without knowing the guys in question, I wouldn't be able to say if it's macho posturing that makes them do such things. I have heard some guys say they do this because they DON'T want the g/f to climb, and so they do what they can to turn her off the idea of it.
But for any person who actually DOES hope to mentor another new to climbing, and puts them in such situations, I would say that it's pretty clear that there is something going on in with them, even if it's just stupidity.....
|
|
|
|
|
Gmburns2000
Jul 30, 2009, 3:35 PM
Post #220 of 810
(2913 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 6, 2007
Posts: 15266
|
happiegrrrl wrote: I have seen, on occasion, the guy who brings his new g/f climbing for her first time, and puts her on something he might have know there was a small likelihood of success. Or goes up a route with a roof and doesn't give any tips on technique. Or a route with a traverse, which he didn't adequately protect. It doesn't take experience in climbing to understand, as you are looking at following a traverse, what happens in a fall.... And then the girl gets scared, or falls off that roof and dangles in space, or flails on the thin stiffly graded face route.....
Is it possible that this scenario could also happen in reverse, where the girlfriend gets the boyfriend into climbing and puts him in a difficult position? Could a guy also do this to another guy? What about a girl doing this to another girl?
In reply to: Without knowing the guys in question, I wouldn't be able to say if it's macho posturing that makes them do such things. I have heard some guys say they do this because they DON'T want the g/f to climb, and so they do what they can to turn her off the idea of it.
Meh, everyone who has frequented the Ladies Room knows my views on gender issues like this: I don't think they exist much. I think that when folks complain about guys doing bad things to gals and gals doing bad things to guys it's just people complaining in the end. All non-physical roles can be easily reversed. The folks who think these things can only happen one way aren't paying attention and are looking for an excuse for failure (either in climbing or in life).
In your example, then the guy is a jerk. Sure, but that has nothing to do with guys in general nor climbing in general. If a girlfriend did that her boyfriend then she's a jerk. And as for turning people off the idea of climbing, well, that has nothing to do with climbing or gender issues. That instead is wholly a relationship issue.
In reply to: But for any person who actually DOES hope to mentor another new to climbing, and puts them in such situations, I would say that it's pretty clear that there is something going on in with them, even if it's just stupidity.....
Absolutely agree.
|
|
|
|
|
kennoyce
Jul 30, 2009, 3:41 PM
Post #221 of 810
(2905 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 6, 2001
Posts: 1338
|
I'm so glad that this thread finally got interesting. Really before the battle of the sexes started camhead's post was the only one worth reading, so thanks for that karmiclimber.
As for this new and exciting topic, I would have to disagree with you. I'm not saying that there aren't male climbers who are jerks, but in my personal experience it seems that most of the guys that you are describing aren't real climbers.
The guys I see behaving this way are generally the type of sport climber who only climbs outside once or twice a month and is only trying to show off to their gf. These guys aren't real climbers, but they want to seem tough to their new gf so they go lead the hardest thing they can possibly get up (usually hangdogging a low 5.10 in my experience). After barely making it to the top of the route they throw their gf on it knowing that there is no way she can make it because they think that their gf will love how big and strong they are. These guys generally aren't trying to get their gf's into climbing because they really aren't into climbing themselves.
It seems to me that any real climber would love to have a gf/wife who is a permanent partner that climbs at their same ability. A partnership like this just makes climbing so much more enjoyable. I would love to be able to swap leads with my wife on multipitch, I would love be able to pull the rope and have my wife lead everything that I do, and someday maybe these things will happen.
As it is right now. my wife will lead the 5.6 or 5.7, we'll pull the rope and I'll lead the 5.11 next to it. My wife will try toproping it but we're both well aware that she probably won't get to the top. I also am consistently leading the 5.9's and 5.10's that she can get up without too much of a problem on TR, I am always trying to get her to try leading them, but she just won't do it no matter how much I encourage her. Hopefully some day that will change, but who knows.
Maybe things are different where you live, but in my experience any true male climber would love to have a female climber as a gf or wife that climbs at least as hard as they do.
Thanks again for the excelent thread hijacking.
|
|
|
|
|
karmiclimber
Jul 30, 2009, 4:10 PM
Post #222 of 810
(2889 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 11, 2004
Posts: 1058
|
Its "origin". And the women in the mid west are more submissive in general. I see it daily. And I want to shake them.
West coast women are more independent and take initiative more often. I don't know about east coast women though, lol. I have seen a fair amount of west coast ladies who are submissive belay slaves also. W/E. I just thought men could lend a hand in helping the submissive women come out of their shells in climbing. But apparently I am preaching to the choir here because every man here has had the completely opposite experience with females in climbing. I was just asking for an adjustment of perspective.
|
|
|
|
|
camhead
Jul 30, 2009, 4:18 PM
Post #223 of 810
(2877 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 10, 2001
Posts: 20939
|
for what it's worth, karmicclimber, I have seen more strong, hard-climbing, independent, non-belay-slave women at the Red River Gorge than at ANY other crag I've been to across the country. Unlike the general cultural atmosphere of the midwest, the climbing culture of the RRG is pretty open to strong women.
|
|
|
|
|
caughtinside
Jul 30, 2009, 4:20 PM
Post #224 of 810
(2874 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 8, 2003
Posts: 30603
|
yeah but sport climbing doesn't count.
|
|
|
|
|
Gmburns2000
Jul 30, 2009, 5:00 PM
Post #225 of 810
(2847 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 6, 2007
Posts: 15266
|
particularly the kind that has bolted cracks.
|
|
|
|
|
|
