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coolcat83


Aug 4, 2009, 8:17 PM
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Descent from Betty  (North_America: United_States: New_York: Upstate: The_Gunks: The_Trapps)
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 I'm taking a guy up for his first real multipitch in a couple weeks and he doesn't like scrambles like the uberfall, I'd like to take him up betty so I was wondering if anyone has gone right to the bolted rappels by kama sutra? can you access it by walking along the trail? Last time I was on betty there was a poor tree at the first belay ledge with rap rings, but nothing up top so we just took the uberfall but i think he might get sketched and wind up having to take a long hike, so if possible I'd like to avoid that.

Thanks.


wonderwoman


Aug 4, 2009, 8:26 PM
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Re: [coolcat83] Descent from Betty [In reply to]
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I don't have the Dick Williams' guide book in front of me, but all the rap stations are listed in the back. Do you have that guide book? If so, have a look in there.


coolcat83


Aug 4, 2009, 8:30 PM
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Re: [wonderwoman] Descent from Betty [In reply to]
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Yeah, it's just a little unclear from the picture (at least to me) if there's a ledge to walk safely, if I'd have to traverse over protected, or if it's just not possible or worth the headache.


Logikal41


Aug 4, 2009, 8:35 PM
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Re: [coolcat83] Descent from Betty [In reply to]
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I have just rappelled from the tree at the end of the climb in the past. I dont remember for sure but i think u can make it to the floor in one full length rappel if you have two ropes. If not i believe you can use that tree on the big ledge at the end of the first pitch. Its a bit awkward getting into position but its a sturdy tree. I am unsure of bolted rappels in the area around the climb. As was previously pointed out the best bet would be to look at the williams guide book.

Edit: The tree at the top should be obvious as i remember it having several pieces of webbing with a couple rings.


(This post was edited by Logikal41 on Aug 4, 2009, 8:36 PM)


coolcat83


Aug 4, 2009, 8:43 PM
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Re: [Logikal41] Descent from Betty [In reply to]
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Thanks Logi,
I lead up it a couple months ago and there wasn't anything at the top, maybe I'll just make a donation to the climbing community and bring some new webbing and rings up with me, as long as it wouldn't cause any trouble. I generally try to avoid altering anything unless there's already existing fixed gear/rap station, then I'll beef it up if it needs it.


(This post was edited by coolcat83 on Aug 4, 2009, 8:45 PM)


Logikal41


Aug 5, 2009, 4:40 AM
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Re: [coolcat83] Descent from Betty [In reply to]
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Looking at old pictures it looks like the tree that was used was the first pine tree at the top. (where the trail begins -- u can walk off that way). I may have equalized off another tree for the anchor, hard to tell from the picture but i vaguely remember doing so. As far as the rappel, if the pine tree no longer has webbing around it and your trying not to add some then i can take a look at my guide book later and give you a heads up at the closest bolted rappel. Dont have it with me at work.


bill413


Aug 5, 2009, 5:47 AM
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Re: [coolcat83] Descent from Betty [In reply to]
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coolcat83 wrote:
Thanks Logi,
I lead up it a couple months ago and there wasn't anything at the top, maybe I'll just make a donation to the climbing community and bring some new webbing and rings up with me, as long as it wouldn't cause any trouble. I generally try to avoid altering anything unless there's already existing fixed gear/rap station, then I'll beef it up if it needs it.

Not a good idea to rig yet another rap station at the gunks. There are already too many people rapping down on top of other climbers.

Although there is the fairly close rap station, I really recommend the uberfall - there are a couple of different routes down it, and a climber should get comfortable with that sort of climb/downclimb.


troutboy


Aug 5, 2009, 6:04 AM
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Re: [coolcat83] Descent from Betty [In reply to]
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coolcat83 wrote:
I'm taking a guy up for his first real multipitch in a couple weeks and he doesn't like scrambles like the uberfall,

Then perhaps multipitch climbing is not for him ?

You could always belay him down the Uberfall. It would still be faster than rapping. And, as already mentioned, there is more than one way down the Uberfall. Climbing down at a short chimney and onto a block on the cliff face right of where most people go up (left on the way down) is a bit easier and less exposed than the normal way down.

coolcat83 wrote:
I'd like to take him up betty so I was wondering if anyone has gone right to the bolted rappels by kama sutra? can you access it by walking along the trail?

No, the bolted rap station at Kama Sutra starts on the GT ledge for 2 reasons:
1) Almost no one does the last pitch of Frog's Head anymore.

2) Anyone who does go to the top in that area (like on Maria) walks down the Uberfall or Radcliff.

You will likely find easily reachable rap stations atop Jackie and Classic (but see caveat below). There are those who insist on rapping these routes despite a walk off about 200 feet away; you could rap there, assuming someone has not removed the slings and rings and assuming it is not a busy weekend.


budman


Aug 5, 2009, 7:10 AM
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Re: [coolcat83] Descent from Betty [In reply to]
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Probably best to do the walk off to the uberfall and set up an anchor and belay your partner as he down climbs. Also would give him some experience in anchors and a not so typical belay that one would experience at the Gunks.


coolcat83


Aug 5, 2009, 8:04 AM
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Re: [troutboy] Descent from Betty [In reply to]
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Thanks for the advice, especially from those who climb in the gunks and know what I'm talking about.
maybe I'll have him suck it up and just downclimb, he does sport lead but is uncomfortable unroped at any height even on easy terrain. If not I suppose I'll belay him down, I think I could do the uberfall in my sleep so maybe after doing it once he'll relize it's no so bad.

I was hesitant to add (replace?) the rappel even though there's precident for it because I've never had so many ropes almost dropped on me as at the Gunks (one while leading almost took me out), so I certainly wouldn't want to increase that on a noob magnet like betty.


Skidemon27


Aug 5, 2009, 12:45 PM
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Re: [coolcat83] Descent from Betty [In reply to]
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i climbed betty about 3 weeks ago and its pretty straight forward interms of the climb and the descent, it gets a crazy busy that climb being its a classic,( i dont think so personally, but still a fun climb) simple to follow and lead. and theres a set of rap rings at the top which will land u right on the first belay ledge, and then theres the crappy little tree to rap off of, 2 pitch rapel, 2 pitch climb...

and the little tree held my fat ass, im 220Lbs...... so if ur buddy is lighter then me he should be good....

if u hike down or scramble down then thats stupid casue its a very easy rapel


troutboy


Aug 5, 2009, 1:01 PM
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Re: [Skidemon27] Descent from Betty [In reply to]
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Skidemon27 wrote:
if u hike down or scramble down then thats stupid casue its a very easy rapel

People like you are why the crowds at the Gunks seem so much worse than need be.

I can be at the base of Betty within 5 minutes of topping out, without the chance of dropping ropes, rocks, or anything else on other parties, without tying up a belay station, and without adding ugly tat to the top of the cliff.

T


Skidemon27


Aug 5, 2009, 1:52 PM
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Re: [troutboy] Descent from Betty [In reply to]
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okay fish boy, when i climbed it got there at 6.30 in the mornin to avoid the crowds, if u got an issue with people climbing and crowds then walk further down the trail and climb, it take less then 5-10 minutes to rap down from that climb, and it doesnt even tie up the belay ledge becasue the rap ring are below the belay ledge.. plus the belay ledge is big enough to hold like 10 people comfortabely..

.. dont know what the hell ur complaining about,,,,

maybe u should know what ur talking about before u got and bit*h

i either climb late or early, so i dont deal with the crowds...

i was simply adding adivce to the thread...

so um yea..... kiss my a$$


Partner rgold


Aug 5, 2009, 2:06 PM
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Re: [coolcat83] Descent from Betty [In reply to]
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Thousands of people who have never climbed before have, over a period of probably fifty years before rap stations became really popular, come down the Uberfall. If you've got someone who isn't able to do that, he or she shouldn't be trad climbing at all in my opinion. It isn't for everyone, after all.

Still, you could belay them down. There is also a safe way to spot the worst moments of the descent (if you go the right way).

What you shouldn't do is add any slings to trees anywhere.

There are bolts at the top of Pas de Deux/City Lights that are accessible by just walking from the top, but you have to drop down at one point so, of course, you have to know where that is. Probably the best way is to climb Pas de Deux or City Lights, and then, at the top bolts, walk a few feet (climber's) left on the ledge and go up a few feet to the top to scope out what the place looks like.

When coming from the top to the bolts, the traverse back right on the ledge is very exposed. If your friend can't stomach the Uberfall, he ain't gonna be up for this unless you give him a belay.

Finally, there is a fair amount of loose rock on the ledge, and usually many parties underneath, so extreme caution and sensitivity are called for---you or your ropes absolutely must not knock any of that stuff off, and if you aren't 100% positive you and your apparently pretty incompetent partner can manage that, you must find another way down.

Edit: I also agree with TB that rapping down over and on top of ascending parties is rude and dangerous. This applies to the rappel I described too, which will put you on top of folks starting up City Lights. So really---take the Uberfall, with a belay if necessary. Perhaps your day should begin with a scramble up and then down the Uberfall so the first experience won't be descending.


(This post was edited by rgold on Aug 5, 2009, 2:14 PM)


troutboy


Aug 5, 2009, 2:07 PM
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Re: [Skidemon27] Descent from Betty [In reply to]
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Skidemon27 wrote:

i was simply adding adivce to the thread...

so um yea..... kiss my a$$

I don't have an issue with crowds, I have an issue with climbers who don't know any better, but call accepted practices "stupid".

What you were adding was BAD advice, because you offered no caveats about doing it during weekdays, or very early before crowds arrived and you advocated a practice that is discouraged by most Gunks regulars (rapping off popular climbs on weekends when other options are readily available) while at the same time calling the more accepted and traditional way "stupid".

FWIW, there is no way in hell 2 people can do 2 raps in 5-10 minutes.

Finally, dude I've been climbing longer than you've been alive and I'm quite sure I've led Betty an order of magnitude more times than you. I am quite familar with the raps and belays. You would be rapping right over the top of someone leading or belaying the first pitch, big ledge or not.

T


Partner cracklover


Aug 5, 2009, 2:17 PM
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Re: [coolcat83] Descent from Betty [In reply to]
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show him how to downclimb the Uberfall. I coached a woman down the Uberfall, who absolutely couldn't get up a 5.4 on TR. Of course I climbed down with her, pointing out the best holds along the way.

If you have reason to think that for emotional or physical reasons, the Uberfall downclimb really is beyond this friend of yours, then by all means, don't create a scene by forcing the issue.

GO


Skidemon27


Aug 5, 2009, 2:19 PM
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Re: [troutboy] Descent from Betty [In reply to]
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obviouslynot becasue the rap from the top comesdown to the left of betty,.... and if u read the OP he/she asked tips on descending down from betty....not how i walk around and take forever to get down....

as for 5-10 minutes to rap down, i know ur much older so u must move much slower....

congradualtion on climbing the same climb over and over again....ur real bad ass man.....

seems to me u got the older trad climber syndrome i have heard about.....

power to u man for climbing longer then i have....u must be right under pro status... casue i know im not a pro.... nor have i hinted at it....

well i hope u find what it is in life that make u compalin about stupid sh*t for no reason....

and if fish boy was ever on the bottom of betty id gladly rap down on ur grumpy ass any day!!!!


troutboy


Aug 5, 2009, 2:37 PM
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Re: [Skidemon27] Descent from Betty [In reply to]
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Skidemon27 wrote:

and if fish boy was ever on the bottom of betty id gladly rap down on ur grumpy ass any day!!!!

As long as you yell rope and don't kick anything on top of me, no problem. But if you are as careless in your climbing as you are with the English language, I expect that is not likely. Especially if you are trying to do it in 5-10 minutes Wink.

And I had a good reason to complain: you were incorrect in your assertion that scrambling off from Betty was "stupid".

BTW, it's rappel, not repel, although in your case.....

TS


coolcat83


Aug 5, 2009, 2:38 PM
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Re: [Skidemon27] Descent from Betty [In reply to]
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wow didn't think i'd stir up such a shitstorm. So i'm going to belay him down the uberfall, unless there's existing rap rings AND it's clear, i know the route fills up fast, when i've lead it it's been late in the day to get another couple pitches in, I know the walk from the uber is close, i'm fine with that, as for the partner, he'd be the third. he's visiting from out of country where he's only tr'd and sported and rapping down is the thing to do apparently. I personally would take a nice walkoff over a rap 99% of the time.

edited to add: Saying he's not ready for multipitch is like saying you have to attain some magical level, he climbs, harder than me in fact, but he doesn't do gear and he really wants to see the gunks, so if i can safely get him up there why not? I jsut wanted to see if there was a way to comfortably get him down that might be smoother than the uber.


(This post was edited by coolcat83 on Aug 5, 2009, 2:44 PM)


Skidemon27


Aug 5, 2009, 2:41 PM
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Re: [troutboy] Descent from Betty [In reply to]
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lol well im trully glad u have moved on onto something new to complain about...its sad u have nothing else to say except that my spelling sucks....

u have proven me right once again.

grumpy old man trad syndrome...


sethg


Aug 5, 2009, 6:02 PM
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Re: [Skidemon27] Descent from Betty [In reply to]
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Anyone who climbs in the Gunks knows that walking off from Betty is quicker, safer, and usually less inconsiderate than rapping it.

That said, if one really wants to rap off, the chains atop City Lights are pretty easy to find. There's a climbers' trail atop the cliff, and it leads right up to the edge where the chains are. If you follow your nose I bet you'll find it pretty easily. Just don't do it in the middle of a weekend day. That would be rude.

Someone said that almost no one climbs the second pitch of Frog's Head anymore-- this is certainly an exaggeration. That pitch is outstanding, and I've had to wait for it. It is true, though, that midclimb chains do tend to kill the traffic on upper pitches...


troutboy


Aug 5, 2009, 7:36 PM
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Re: [sethg] Descent from Betty [In reply to]
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sethg wrote:

Someone said that almost no one climbs the second pitch of Frog's Head anymore-- this is certainly an exaggeration. That pitch is outstanding, and I've had to wait for it. It is true, though, that midclimb chains do tend to kill the traffic on upper pitches...
No, what I said was nobody climbs the LAST pitch of Frog's Head (that would be the 3rd pitch). The fact that you don't know it exists is probably good evidence the statement is true Wink (note smiley - just playin' a bit here).

TS


sethg


Aug 5, 2009, 8:46 PM
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Re: [troutboy] Descent from Betty [In reply to]
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Ahhhh, you got me there.


marc801


Aug 5, 2009, 9:30 PM
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Re: [Skidemon27] Descent from Betty [In reply to]
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Skidemon27 wrote:
obviouslynot becasue the rap from the top comesdown to the left of betty,.... and if u read the OP he/she asked tips on descending down from betty....not how i walk around and take forever to get down....

as for 5-10 minutes to rap down, i know ur much older so u must move much slower....

congradualtion on climbing the same climb over and over again....ur real bad ass man.....

seems to me u got the older trad climber syndrome i have heard about.....

power to u man for climbing longer then i have....u must be right under pro status... casue i know im not a pro.... nor have i hinted at it....

well i hope u find what it is in life that make u compalin about stupid sh*t for no reason....

and if fish boy was ever on the bottom of betty id gladly rap down on ur grumpy ass any day!!!!
Are you this much of a fucking moron in all other aspects of your life or are you just a shithead when climbing?


Skidemon27


Aug 6, 2009, 5:39 AM
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all aspects....

every last one...Tongue


tomcat


Aug 6, 2009, 6:40 AM
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Re: [coolcat83] Descent from Betty [In reply to]
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I kind of hate to point this out,but if the guy who attempted to rappel Ken's Crack a couple weeks ago had just walked over and downclimbed the Uberfall descent he wouldn't be in the hospital right now.Don't rap when you don't need to.


Partner rgold


Aug 6, 2009, 7:54 AM
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Re: [tomcat] Descent from Betty [In reply to]
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There are now several rap accidents per year, one of which is often pretty serious. Experienced climbers are not immune. No amount of bluster about grumpy old trad climbers is going to change these facts, and the idea that a climber with some experience would think of rapping as safer than an exposed but very easy scramble down is a testimony to a new form of highly specialized incompetence. And this is not to mention the various effects of having ropes thrown down on the heads of parties coming up.

[Grumpy old trad climber rant]
Although the change in parking regulations that eliminated roadside parking years ago made convenience rapping more or less inevitable, the practice has reached genuinely absurd proportions at the major Gunks areas. Whole generations of climbers speak of having done climbs when in fact they've only done the first of two or more equally good pitches. For some stunning examples, look no further than Birdland, MF, Birdie Party, Snooky's Return, etc. etc. etc.
[/Grumpy old trad climber rant]

Getting back to the subject at hand, it occurs to me that belaying down the Uberfall is kinda inconvenient, and in fact forces the climber to take a somewhat harder line, because the easiest way is very diagonal. So if a belay is in the offing, a better approach is to scramble down Radcliffe, which is even closer to Betty anyway and is much more suitable for an upper belay. A preliminary scramble up will familiarize the party with the route as well as help to locate the top of Radcliffe for the descent.


troutboy


Aug 6, 2009, 8:04 AM
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Re: [rgold] Descent from Betty [In reply to]
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rgold wrote:

So if a belay is in the offing, a better approach is to scramble down Radcliffe, which is even closer to Betty anyway and is much more suitable for an upper belay. A preliminary scramble up will familiarize the party with the route as well as help to locate the top of Radcliffe for the descent.

Much more fun too, although at one or 2 spots the exposure can be intimidating. In reality, the chances for a severe fall are really minimal. It just looks scary.

To the OP, I can guarantee if your partner does not like unroped scrambles he WILL NOT like Radcliff; you will most certainly want to belay in at least 1 spot, probably more.


Partner rgold


Aug 6, 2009, 8:29 AM
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Re: [troutboy] Descent from Betty [In reply to]
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TB, just to be clear, I wasn't suggesting sending the Fearful One down the fourth class Radcliffe unbelayed. I've taken beginners down that way and always belay them. The climbing, though easy, is harder than the third class Uberfall scramble.

My point was just that an upper belay on Radcliffe is perhaps better and easier to arrange than on the Uberfall. Not to mention that if the person in question is going to take up trad in any multipitch area outside the Gunks, they will probably have to learn to safely climb up and down 4th class and the Radcliffe is good practice for that.


bill413


Aug 6, 2009, 11:03 AM
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Re: [rgold] Descent from Betty [In reply to]
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Despite the fact that I really dislike Radcliffe, and greatly prefer the Uberfall, this is really good advice on the best route to belay someone down.

And, yes, the Uberfall can be scary the first time or two. Going first & helping your friend locate their feet will help. After a couple of trips, they should be rewarded with confidence on it.


sethg


Aug 6, 2009, 11:07 AM
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Re: [rgold] Descent from Betty [In reply to]
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rgold, I would love to hear your insight into how the parking regs encouraged rapping. I wasn't around in the old days-- been climbing in the Gunks for three years. It has seemed to me that the bolted stations with chains-- especially the ones that are just one pitch high-- have led to the frenzy of rapping off after one pitch. But I can't wrap my mind around the proposition that parking had something to do with it! Can you tell us more?


Partner rgold


Aug 7, 2009, 5:16 AM
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Seth, here's my take:

When parking on 44-55 was legal, no one carried a pack to the base of a climb. You walked back (which is much quicker than people realize), came down the Uberfall, and then went to your car for snacks, etc. There was no pressing need to return to the base of the climb. Once parking was banned and climbers had to use more remote parking spots, lugging gear plus lunch plus extra clothing in a large pack to the base became the norm, and then getting back to that pack became important and viola, rappelling happened.


Forums : Climbing Information : Regional Discussions

 


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