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Gmburns2000


Aug 13, 2009, 2:10 PM
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A Guide's Life
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This is a new series on the blog. The hope is to give light to the lives of guides and not just focus on the climbing.

The focus of this series is less about the "how to" of climbing / guiding and more about the personal side instead.

This first post, An Unpleasant Start, is a new series on the ups and downs of being a guide: from networking trips gone wrong, to personal sacrifices (money, relationships, travel, climbing for work's sake vs. having fun), and how a hired trip can start off bad and end up good. It's about being young and learning.

BTW - if there are any guides out there who would like to contribute, please let me know. We're looking for different perspectives.


jt512


Aug 13, 2009, 2:54 PM
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Re: [Gmburns2000] A Guide's Life [In reply to]
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
This is a new series on the blog. The hope is to give light to the lives of guides and not just focus on the climbing.

The focus of this series is less about the "how to" of climbing / guiding and more about the personal side instead.

This first post, An Unpleasant Start, is a new series on the ups and downs of being a guide: from networking trips gone wrong, to personal sacrifices (money, relationships, travel, climbing for work's sake vs. having fun), and how a hired trip can start off bad and end up good. It's about being young and learning.

Oh my god.

Jay


gmggg


Aug 13, 2009, 3:06 PM
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jt512 wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
This is a new series on the blog. The hope is to give light to the lives of guides and not just focus on the climbing.

The focus of this series is less about the "how to" of climbing / guiding and more about the personal side instead.

This first post, An Unpleasant Start, is a new series on the ups and downs of being a guide: from networking trips gone wrong, to personal sacrifices (money, relationships, travel, climbing for work's sake vs. having fun), and how a hired trip can start off bad and end up good. It's about being young and learning.

Oh my god.

Jay

I'm continuously impressed with how you can sum up the correct response to posts in so few words.


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Aug 13, 2009, 3:10 PM
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gmggg wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
This is a new series on the blog. The hope is to give light to the lives of guides and not just focus on the climbing.

The focus of this series is less about the "how to" of climbing / guiding and more about the personal side instead.

This first post, An Unpleasant Start, is a new series on the ups and downs of being a guide: from networking trips gone wrong, to personal sacrifices (money, relationships, travel, climbing for work's sake vs. having fun), and how a hired trip can start off bad and end up good. It's about being young and learning.

Oh my god.

Jay

I'm continuously impressed with how you can sum up the correct response to posts in so few words.
I second that.


tready


Aug 13, 2009, 3:21 PM
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Woohoo! Now lemme go get some popcorn...


blkela


Aug 13, 2009, 3:29 PM
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Re: [Gmburns2000] A Guide's Life [In reply to]
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If you would like to know how a guide feels and looks at a group and/or trip that he takes with him to wherever it might be, try looking up some well known guides and climbers and find books that they have wrote like "Thin Air" by Greg Child.


(This post was edited by blkela on Aug 13, 2009, 6:02 PM)


jmeizis


Aug 13, 2009, 6:47 PM
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Yeah, I've read a few different books but not that one. I've been reading some of David Robert's books, Moment's of Doubt, Mountain of My Fear. It's got some of that sort of stuff. I've noticed a lot of people feel a lot of different ways so I kept with my perspective. I'll have a look at the library and see if I can find it.


(This post was edited by jmeizis on Aug 13, 2009, 6:48 PM)


climbsomething


Aug 13, 2009, 7:15 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote:

This first post, An Unpleasant Start...
That about sums it up. You need not say more.


jakedatc


Aug 13, 2009, 7:43 PM
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I'm not reading all of that....


In reply to:
My life as a guide and just as a climber has been in(*AN) epic failure

fixed that for you....

In reply to:
nice 5.10a called Life on the Run. The first half was easy, the total climb being only a little over 50 feet tall. Despite the easy first half I crammed the second half with more gear than necessary. I onsighted the climb but I couldn't bring myself to crawl more than a foot above my gear.

where exactly are you certified to guide through? EMS's standards would kick you out like immediately.

you weren't Nolan14 in a previous life were you? Shocked


(This post was edited by jakedatc on Aug 13, 2009, 7:48 PM)


jmeizis


Aug 13, 2009, 7:58 PM
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Have you never had a bad head day? Hence the comment about mileage. I think for most people their lead head improves over the course of a season. It's hard to do that when you climb the same hundred or so things all season long.

Perhaps you should read the whole thing.


jt512


Aug 13, 2009, 8:02 PM
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jmeizis wrote:
Have you never had a bad head day?

Guide, eh?

Jay


jakedatc


Aug 13, 2009, 8:10 PM
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jmeizis wrote:
Have you never had a bad head day? Hence the comment about mileage. I think for most people their lead head improves over the course of a season. It's hard to do that when you climb the same hundred or so things all season long.

Perhaps you should read the whole thing.

the guides i know walk up the routes they are guiding in their sneakers, wet, blind folded and then solo them in the dark.

i'd be fucking pissed off if i hired a guide and he was shitting his pants on a 5.8.. screw that.

show some credentials eh?


Partner angry


Aug 13, 2009, 8:12 PM
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What do you do if a guide shows up at your front door?

























Pay for your pizza.


uni_jim


Aug 13, 2009, 8:54 PM
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nice one, angry.


jt512


Aug 13, 2009, 9:14 PM
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The following material from the blog pretty much says it all. And keep in mind that this is a direct quote.

The World's Most Melodramatic 'Guide' wrote:
I had a series of setbacks that started to destroy me mentally to the point where I wondered if I would ever go climbing again. I would end up going climbing but it would come at great cost.

And what was this "great cost"? Had to amputate a limb due to frostbite? Lost his climbing partner in an avalanche? Unable to be at his wife's deathbed because he was stranded in an ice cave in the Antarctic?

No. It was three traffic tickets: two for speeding, one for not wearing his seatbelt.

Jay


jmeizis


Aug 13, 2009, 9:29 PM
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Since the tickets in addition to my regular bills exceeded my income by almost double then yeah it was a pretty great cost to me since it made it exceedingly hard to live.


jt512


Aug 13, 2009, 9:31 PM
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jmeizis wrote:
Since the tickets in addition to my regular bills exceeded my income by almost double then yeah it was a pretty great cost to me since it made it exceedingly hard to live.

*face palm*


climbsomething


Aug 13, 2009, 9:34 PM
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'Burns,

The community gave plenty of valid criticisms of your blog the first time you started a thread. It's not "hate" or piling on. This isn't a coordinated attack, yet so many people agree.

And nobody owes you a compliment sandwich when criticizing your blog.


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Aug 13, 2009, 9:34 PM
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angry wrote:
What do you do if a guide shows up at your front door?

























Pay for your pizza.

what's the difference between a pizza and a guide........the pizza feeds a family of four


Partner macherry


Aug 13, 2009, 9:35 PM
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jt512 wrote:
jmeizis wrote:
Since the tickets in addition to my regular bills exceeded my income by almost double then yeah it was a pretty great cost to me since it made it exceedingly hard to live.

*face palm*

what no

*plonk*


kriso9tails


Aug 13, 2009, 9:35 PM
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Wait, don't be so quick to judge. Perhaps 'bad head day' was a reference to how he got the cash to pay down the tickets. When guiding isn't raking in the big money and there's no prospects on the writing, sometimes you have to turn to the streets.


jt512


Aug 13, 2009, 9:39 PM
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macherry wrote:
jt512 wrote:
jmeizis wrote:
Since the tickets in addition to my regular bills exceeded my income by almost double then yeah it was a pretty great cost to me since it made it exceedingly hard to live.

*face palm*

what no

*plonk*

Are you kidding? Why?

Jay


jt512


Aug 13, 2009, 9:42 PM
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Jeremiah, grow up. The star ratings really don't count for anything.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Aug 13, 2009, 9:42 PM)


Partner macherry


Aug 13, 2009, 9:44 PM
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jakedatc wrote:
jmeizis wrote:
Have you never had a bad head day? Hence the comment about mileage. I think for most people their lead head improves over the course of a season. It's hard to do that when you climb the same hundred or so things all season long.

Perhaps you should read the whole thing.

the guides i know walk up the routes they are guiding in their sneakers, wet, blind folded and then solo them in the dark.

i'd be fucking pissed off if i hired a guide and he was shitting his pants on a 5.8.. screw that.

show some credentials eh?

he's already stated he doesn't need credentials...see previous thread.


jakedatc


Aug 13, 2009, 9:45 PM
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Here's our fearful leader only 2 years ago.. being guided up 5.8 with a 20 fucking pound pack? wtf do you need that weighs 20lbs exactly...


In reply to:
Jeremiah Meizis with a 20lb pack on the Whitney-Gilman Ridge (II 5.7) in October of 2007 on Cannon Cliff, Franconia Notch State Park, New Hampshire.

In reply to:
We headed up the classic Whitney-Gilman Ridge with relative ease (well, at one point, on the last pitch, Jeremiah had difficulty pulling the final crux with the 20lb pack on his back

exactly what weighs 20 lbs.. while being guided up a 5.7 5 pitch route? i mean it's Cannon not Denali


jmeizis


Aug 13, 2009, 11:40 PM
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I think you might want to read that again. You've got some of the facts wrong.

-I wasn't being guided, we swapped leads.
-We were a little gun shy from our last experience.
-It was our second time on the biggest cliff in the northeast.
-We had more than we needed.

It might be helpful if you climbed there before you commented so that way you were speaking from a position of knowledge.


jt512


Aug 13, 2009, 11:47 PM
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jmeizis wrote:
[I'm right and you're wrong. I sincerely want your honest feedback. Without it, I have no way to explain to you why you are wrong about me. I'm really not a pretentious, narcissistic n00b. If you would kindly give me some constructive criticism on my deep, meaningful blog, I will happily explain to you why.]

Jay

P.S. Jeremiah, I have already given this post one star to save you the trouble.


(This post was edited by jt512 on Aug 13, 2009, 11:56 PM)


socalclimber


Aug 14, 2009, 4:36 AM
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Is this some kind of bad joke, or is it a poorly constructed troll?

So who exactly are you working for as a guide? Sounds like pirate guide work to me. A big no no these days.

What medical training do you have?

"I'm losing confidence, you seemed so confident before, but it doesn't seem like you know where you're going and if you don't know where you are going then how will you know which climbs will be safe."

This speaks volumes. Rule 1 in guiding is know your area. Have it dialed. I show up as much as an hour before the client arrives to have things ready and setup. I know how to keep the pace going to eliminate possible down time. The worst thing you can do with a client is to not no where you're going or having them sit around while you figure out what to do.

If you are unclear about an area, go out the day before and dial the area in.

There's a good reason why most guide schools hire either locals or long term climbers who know the area like the back of their hand.


You have absolutely no business guiding.


(This post was edited by socalclimber on Aug 14, 2009, 5:16 AM)


Gmburns2000


Aug 14, 2009, 6:05 AM
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jakedatc wrote:
Here's our fearful leader only 2 years ago.. being guided up 5.8 with a 20 fucking pound pack? wtf do you need that weighs 20lbs exactly...
[image]http://www.climbing.com/exclusive/readerblogs/greg_burns/gregburns-cannon-jeremiah-37.jpg[/image]

In reply to:
Jeremiah Meizis with a 20lb pack on the Whitney-Gilman Ridge (II 5.7) in October of 2007 on Cannon Cliff, Franconia Notch State Park, New Hampshire.

In reply to:
We headed up the classic Whitney-Gilman Ridge with relative ease (well, at one point, on the last pitch, Jeremiah had difficulty pulling the final crux with the 20lb pack on his back

exactly what weighs 20 lbs.. while being guided up a 5.7 5 pitch route? i mean it's Cannon not Denali

That wasn't a guided trip. We swapped leads. I had the last pitch.

As for the weight, we had a lot of crap that we didn't need and were afraid of getting caught in another storm on top of Cannon, which is no fun. We definitely learned our lesson on those two trips.


wanderlustmd


Aug 14, 2009, 6:25 AM
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tready wrote:
Woohoo! Now lemme go get some popcorn...

2nd....

I've forgotten how much fun it can be outside of the lounge.


(This post was edited by wanderlustmd on Aug 14, 2009, 6:29 AM)


camhead


Aug 14, 2009, 6:28 AM
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jakedatc wrote:
Here's our fearful leader only 2 years ago.. being guided up 5.8 with a 20 fucking pound pack? wtf do you need that weighs 20lbs exactly...


In reply to:
Jeremiah Meizis with a 20lb pack on the Whitney-Gilman Ridge (II 5.7) in October of 2007 on Cannon Cliff, Franconia Notch State Park, New Hampshire.

In reply to:
We headed up the classic Whitney-Gilman Ridge with relative ease (well, at one point, on the last pitch, Jeremiah had difficulty pulling the final crux with the 20lb pack on his back

exactly what weighs 20 lbs.. while being guided up a 5.7 5 pitch route? i mean it's Cannon not Denali

Rocks! Barbells! He was training to climb 5.9!


wanderlustmd


Aug 14, 2009, 6:38 AM
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jmeizis wrote:
I think you might want to read that again. You've got some of the facts wrong.

-I wasn't being guided, we swapped leads.
-We were a little gun shy from our last experience.
-It was our second time on the biggest cliff in the northeast.
-We had more than we needed.

It might be helpful if you climbed there before you commented so that way you were speaking from a position of knowledge.
Two way streets are a bitch, aren't they?

Look dude, I don't know you and have no desire to flame, but based on what I've read, you might want to think twice before posting as much of this stuff as you do. I'd put money on the prospect of you kicking yourself when you look back a few years from now with a greater perspective on the whole shebang.

I think very few people are true guides in every sense of the word, but that's more explaination than I care to type and I've got things to do.

Also know that, while JT may be salty, he's usually right.


dr_feelgood


Aug 14, 2009, 6:40 AM
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/watches shitshow


camhead


Aug 14, 2009, 6:45 AM
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I know this had been brought up before, but I recall years ago when someone else on this site was talking about being a "guide," and jt512 said something to the effect of "Does anyone else remember when being a 'guide' meant that you had to be able to free solo 5.9 in the rain in approach shoes? Now it just refers to anyone who can set up a toprope for a youth group." Still rings true.

High hopes for this thread. And no, I am not going to read the original blorg post.


wanderlustmd


Aug 14, 2009, 6:46 AM
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camhead wrote:
I know this had been brought up before, but I recall years ago when someone else on this site was talking about being a "guide," and jt512 said something to the effect of "Does anyone else remember when being a 'guide' meant that you had to be able to free solo 5.9 in the rain in approach shoes? Now it just refers to anyone who can set up a toprope for a youth group." Still rings true.

High hopes for this thread. And no, I am not going to read the original blorg post.
My new netflix hasn't come in yet, so I'm hoping this can be a backup.


dr_feelgood


Aug 14, 2009, 6:49 AM
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wanderlustmd wrote:
camhead wrote:
I know this had been brought up before, but I recall years ago when someone else on this site was talking about being a "guide," and jt512 said something to the effect of "Does anyone else remember when being a 'guide' meant that you had to be able to free solo 5.9 in the rain in approach shoes? Now it just refers to anyone who can set up a toprope for a youth group." Still rings true.

High hopes for this thread. And no, I am not going to read the original blorg post.
My new netflix hasn't come in yet, so I'm hoping this can be a backup.

Shit, I've got the chips and salsa out.
Yes, at 9:50 am.


fresh


Aug 14, 2009, 6:49 AM
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In reply to:
I officially feel like I could solo most 5.10's

In reply to:
One of the climbs I lead in Elevenmile was a nice 5.10a called Life on the Run. The first half was easy, the total climb being only a little over 50 feet tall. Despite the easy first half I crammed the second half with more gear than necessary. I onsighted the climb but I couldn't bring myself to crawl more than a foot above my gear.



In reply to:
Then outside of Leadville on a straight flat portion of road I sped up. I didn't know how fast I was going or what the speed limit was. I was on that fine edge of control that climbers are very familiar with but most people are lucky to have dealt with once in their lives.

In reply to:
I have a terrible habit of putting the pedal to the floor

In reply to:
The true dangers of my life are unfortunately at the hands of others.



In reply to:
At this point the mother stopped and said something so degrading that she might as well of slapped me in the face, "I'm losing confidence, you seemed so confident before, but it doesn't seem like you know where you're going and if you don't know where you are going then how will you know which climbs will be safe." At this point I wished she had slapped me in the face, it would have been easier to maintain a smile. See when you're a guide you must seem invincible, even if you are not. You must have unwavering confidence, gumption, and seemingly boundless reserves of strength and energy. It's a delicate balance. You must seem confident but not brash. Energetic but not manic. While maintaining a firmly dominant upper hand you cannot come off as overbearing. Chiding clients with beta it's hard to not sound condescending and in the end I must maintain an even keel of my temper while promoting their enjoyment and complete safety while taking serious risks to my own health throughout most of the day.

I did not lose my smile though. I calmly explained the many years I had been climbing and the fact that I would not put her daughter in any danger I would not expose myself to. Luckily she didn't know that I am an avid risk taker and that a risk I would take would not be one which she would want her daughter exposed.

In reply to:
The true dangers of my life are unfortunately at the hands of others.

in all honesty, with all respect, dude. wtf.

In reply to:
The person who dropped me told me to send him the medical bills and he would pay for them.
did he actually pay for it?


jakedatc


Aug 14, 2009, 7:14 AM
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In reply to:
Luckily she didn't know that I am an avid risk taker and that a risk I would take would not be one which she would want her daughter exposed.

please stop taking anyone but Greg out climbing... immediately. you are a danger to yourself and the people who think you have a clue as to what you are doing.

so exactly in your "many years of(bullshit) experience" you didnt figure out that you didn't need 20 lbs of useless shit to climb 5 pitches in a day? how screwed up is your system that it takes you that long. Climbing steadily and making good decisions keeps you from getting screwed. Perhaps multipitch isn't for you.


Gmburns2000


Aug 14, 2009, 7:27 AM
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jakedatc wrote:

so exactly in your "many years of(bullshit) experience" you didnt figure out that you didn't need 20 lbs of useless shit to climb 5 pitches in a day? how screwed up is your system that it takes you that long. Climbing steadily and making good decisions keeps you from getting screwed. Perhaps multipitch isn't for you.

Jake, for context, which both of us have noted above (and so did my blog post on my recent Cannon trip), we took the extra stuff because we wanted to hike to the summit after climbing, and when we had tried to do that a few weeks before we got caught in a nasty rain storm without extra gear. When we got caught in the rain after climbing Lakeview we only had our climbing gear (and water, food, etc). A few weeks later, when we brought the pack on WG, it was because we didn't want to get blasted by another rain storm and because we knew it was going to be a long day, which it was.

Considering those two routes were both the first time either of us had been on Cannon, I would have expected there to be some sort of adventure. Even for excellent climbers it is a very unpredictable mountain.


camhead


Aug 14, 2009, 7:29 AM
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I officially feel like I could solo most 5.10's

facepalm.

Uhhh... I'm not sure that Peter Croft would say that. "Consistantly onsighting" does not equal "I could solo that."


jakedatc


Aug 14, 2009, 7:38 AM
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
jakedatc wrote:

so exactly in your "many years of(bullshit) experience" you didnt figure out that you didn't need 20 lbs of useless shit to climb 5 pitches in a day? how screwed up is your system that it takes you that long. Climbing steadily and making good decisions keeps you from getting screwed. Perhaps multipitch isn't for you.

Jake, for context, which both of us have noted above (and so did my blog post on my recent Cannon trip), we took the extra stuff because we wanted to hike to the summit after climbing, and when we had tried to do that a few weeks before we got caught in a nasty rain storm without extra gear. When we got caught in the rain after climbing Lakeview we only had our climbing gear (and water, food, etc). A few weeks later, when we brought the pack on WG, it was because we didn't want to get blasted by another rain storm and because we knew it was going to be a long day, which it was.

Considering those two routes were both the first time either of us had been on Cannon, I would have expected there to be some sort of adventure. Even for excellent climbers it is a very unpredictable mountain.

Yet epics and injuries seem to follow you both everywhere. A pattern like that is not good. A decision process doesn't seem to be working.


marc801


Aug 14, 2009, 7:41 AM
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
Jake, for context, which both of us have noted above (and so did my blog post on my recent Cannon trip), we took the extra stuff because we wanted to hike to the summit after climbing, and when we had tried to do that a few weeks before we got caught in a nasty rain storm without extra gear.
What "extra gear" does one possibly need for the gentle stroll to the summit (where you can take the tram down)?


lena_chita
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Aug 14, 2009, 7:41 AM
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jt512 wrote:
[Oh my god.

Jay

Yeah, that was thought number 1.

Thought number 2 was: Gee, maybe i should start calling myself a guide? I only got lost on my way to the crag once, and that was the place I've never been to ... If Imanage to find a crag that I have been to before, I'm 90% there as far as my guiding credentials go.


camhead


Aug 14, 2009, 7:46 AM
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lena_chita wrote:
jt512 wrote:
[Oh my god.

Jay

Yeah, that was thought number 1.

Thought number 2 was: Gee, maybe i should start calling myself a guide? I only got lost on my way to the crag once, and that was the place I've never been to ... If Imanage to find a crag that I have been to before, I'm 90% there as far as my guiding credentials go.

I remember more than once, Lena.

That incident with the "road" in Muir Valley may have been enough to forever ban you from guiding in America.Smile


gmggg


Aug 14, 2009, 7:46 AM
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jmeizis wrote:
It might be helpful if you climbed there before you commented so that way you were speaking from a position of knowledge.

Maybe it would be helpful if you pulled the Abbey quote from your signature if reading comprehension is going to be a qualifier here...


markc


Aug 14, 2009, 7:49 AM
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socalclimber wrote:
"I'm losing confidence, you seemed so confident before, but it doesn't seem like you know where you're going and if you don't know where you are going then how will you know which climbs will be safe."

This speaks volumes. Rule 1 in guiding is know your area. Have it dialed. I show up as much as an hour before the client arrives to have things ready and setup. I know how to keep the pace going to eliminate possible down time. The worst thing you can do with a client is to not no where you're going or having them sit around while you figure out what to do.

If you are unclear about an area, go out the day before and dial the area in.

My thoughts exactly. Doing advanced scouting of the approach and potential routes seems like a no-brainer. It's one thing to get a little turned around when you're out with your friends. It's something else entirely when you're being paid to 'guide' someone. In this case, it was the blind leading the blind. He even takes them through a break in a barbed wire fence!

I've never hired a guide, as more experienced friends have helped me along. Should I hire a guide, it would likely be to make sure I'm maximizing my climbing on a trip. (I generally prefer to figure things out on my own, but it could happen.) If someone wasted my time as he did with that family, you can be sure I'd be upset.

For someone that wants to work as a guide, there's precious little introspection or taking ownership of mistakes. He's frustrated by problems of his own making that are easily avoided. Three moving violations? If money's really tight, it's not going to take me three times to learn that lesson. When you add driving is vital to the job, it's even more short-sighted. There's the Gri-Gri, getting lost with clients, etc.

Lastly, I was out in Manitou Springs last month. We spent a little time in Red Rock Canyon Open Space. It has some of the easiest access and routefinding I've ever experienced. Navigating Garden of the Gods doesn't seem much more difficult. Most of Jeremiah's experience seems more in line with AMGA single pitch instructor. If you hang out your shingle as a guide, you should be able to back it up.


granite_grrl


Aug 14, 2009, 7:54 AM
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jakedatc wrote:
In reply to:
Luckily she didn't know that I am an avid risk taker and that a risk I would take would not be one which she would want her daughter exposed.

please stop taking anyone but Greg out climbing... immediately. you are a danger to yourself and the people who think you have a clue as to what you are doing.
Agreed. This quote made my jaw drop. Jerimiah's attempts to make himself look like a hardcore risk taker makes me sick, and is certainly not someone that I'll ever rope up with.


jakedatc


Aug 14, 2009, 8:00 AM
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granite_grrl wrote:
jakedatc wrote:
In reply to:
Luckily she didn't know that I am an avid risk taker and that a risk I would take would not be one which she would want her daughter exposed.

please stop taking anyone but Greg out climbing... immediately. you are a danger to yourself and the people who think you have a clue as to what you are doing.
Agreed. This quote made my jaw drop. Jerimiah's attempts to make himself look like a hardcore risk taker makes me sick, and is certainly not someone that I'll ever rope up with.

Yea.. i won't tie in with either of them.. Getting lost, hurt, benighted, especially on a regular basis does not fit into my partner criteria. And certainly doesn't make you look cool or hardcore. it makes you sound unsafe and stupid


Gmburns2000


Aug 14, 2009, 8:01 AM
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jakedatc wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
jakedatc wrote:

so exactly in your "many years of(bullshit) experience" you didnt figure out that you didn't need 20 lbs of useless shit to climb 5 pitches in a day? how screwed up is your system that it takes you that long. Climbing steadily and making good decisions keeps you from getting screwed. Perhaps multipitch isn't for you.

Jake, for context, which both of us have noted above (and so did my blog post on my recent Cannon trip), we took the extra stuff because we wanted to hike to the summit after climbing, and when we had tried to do that a few weeks before we got caught in a nasty rain storm without extra gear. When we got caught in the rain after climbing Lakeview we only had our climbing gear (and water, food, etc). A few weeks later, when we brought the pack on WG, it was because we didn't want to get blasted by another rain storm and because we knew it was going to be a long day, which it was.

Considering those two routes were both the first time either of us had been on Cannon, I would have expected there to be some sort of adventure. Even for excellent climbers it is a very unpredictable mountain.

Yet epics and injuries seem to follow you both everywhere. A pattern like that is not good. A decision process doesn't seem to be working.

Not entirely true. I've only been injured once on an actual climb, and that was two weekends ago when I fell on Moby. I tweaked the ankle that I sprained on the ice while walking to work this past winter. I've had a few strained tendons here and there from bouldering or climbing too much in the gym, but that's about it. I'll let Jeremiah clarify, but I don't know of any injuries he has sustained while climbing either (other than the standard overuse gym injuries such as tendons and such).

And I've only had "epics", if that's what you want to call them, on Cannon (two rain storms, one fall, and one long day). Having about 600 pitches or so spread over ten years under my belt, four really bad days on Cannon really isn't indicative poor decision-making. Sometimes shit happens, and I've known it to happen a lot to a fair number of climbers on that mountain, n00bs and not.


Partner macherry


Aug 14, 2009, 8:01 AM
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jakedatc wrote:
granite_grrl wrote:
jakedatc wrote:
In reply to:
Luckily she didn't know that I am an avid risk taker and that a risk I would take would not be one which she would want her daughter exposed.

please stop taking anyone but Greg out climbing... immediately. you are a danger to yourself and the people who think you have a clue as to what you are doing.
Agreed. This quote made my jaw drop. Jerimiah's attempts to make himself look like a hardcore risk taker makes me sick, and is certainly not someone that I'll ever rope up with.

Yea.. i won't tie in with either of them.. Getting lost, hurt, benighted, especially on a regular basis does not fit into my partner criteria. And certainly doesn't make you look cool or hardcore. it makes you sound unsafe and stupid
it's good advertising for the guiding business!!!!!Wink


camhead


Aug 14, 2009, 8:01 AM
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granite_grrl wrote:
jakedatc wrote:
In reply to:
Luckily she didn't know that I am an avid risk taker and that a risk I would take would not be one which she would want her daughter exposed.

please stop taking anyone but Greg out climbing... immediately. you are a danger to yourself and the people who think you have a clue as to what you are doing.
Agreed. This quote made my jaw drop. Jerimiah's attempts to make himself look like a hardcore risk taker makes me sick, and is certainly not someone that I'll ever rope up with.

If someone really wanted to be a dick, he could forward the blog post to Jer's boss or guiding company.

I wouldn't, but I will say that when I was guiding (though not rock), there was no way in hell I would post stuff like that online for everyone to see. Half facetious quips like the "risk" one are fine with beers around the campfire with friends, but not for the whole world to read and misconstrue.


jakedatc


Aug 14, 2009, 8:03 AM
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macherry wrote:
jakedatc wrote:
granite_grrl wrote:
jakedatc wrote:
In reply to:
Luckily she didn't know that I am an avid risk taker and that a risk I would take would not be one which she would want her daughter exposed.

please stop taking anyone but Greg out climbing... immediately. you are a danger to yourself and the people who think you have a clue as to what you are doing.
Agreed. This quote made my jaw drop. Jerimiah's attempts to make himself look like a hardcore risk taker makes me sick, and is certainly not someone that I'll ever rope up with.

Yea.. i won't tie in with either of them.. Getting lost, hurt, benighted, especially on a regular basis does not fit into my partner criteria. And certainly doesn't make you look cool or hardcore. it makes you sound unsafe and stupid
it's good advertising for the guiding business!!!!!Wink

*almost* as good as drunken half naked pictures of yourself.. maybe he should team up with that girl?


lena_chita
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Aug 14, 2009, 8:03 AM
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camhead wrote:
lena_chita wrote:
jt512 wrote:
[Oh my god.

Jay

Yeah, that was thought number 1.

Thought number 2 was: Gee, maybe i should start calling myself a guide? I only got lost on my way to the crag once, and that was the place I've never been to ... If Imanage to find a crag that I have been to before, I'm 90% there as far as my guiding credentials go.

I remember more than once, Lena.

That incident with the "road" in Muir Valley may have been enough to forever ban you from guiding in America.Smile

Hey, we weren't lost during THAT incident. I knew exactly where we were. It is just that we weren't supposed to be there in a car...

But you are right, I can remember two incidents of being lost now, but Funk Rock is the only one that really stands out in my mind. That was epic! Your sunglasses are still there somewhere, poluting the environment. Or was it Diego's sunglasses? I forgot.

If anything, that makes me MORE qualified for guiding, don't you think? I will be able to forget unpleasant things quickly, and thus will be able to maintain a smile for the clients, no matter how many insults they fling at me.


wanderlustmd


Aug 14, 2009, 8:04 AM
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Unacceptable level of posting here.

I'm going to buy some books and do errands, when I get back in a few hours I want to see 300+ and a few insults against his mother.


blueeyedclimber


Aug 14, 2009, 8:05 AM
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I am a certified TRSM instructor. I am a lead instructor at an outdoor climbing camp. Yesterday it rained, so we were forced inside. We played some sharks and minnows, did an obstacle course, and played a rope swing game called Peanut Butter and Jelly. I happen to kick ass at this game but my team lost for only like the second or third time all summer. It was rough!

Maybe I should start a blog to let people know how hard the "guiding" life is.

JoshCool


camhead


Aug 14, 2009, 8:06 AM
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lena_chita wrote:
If anything, that makes me MORE qualified for guiding, don't you think? I will be able to forget unpleasant things quickly, and thus will be able to maintain a smile for the clients, no matter how many insults they fling at me.

Definitely. The true mark of a great guide, in my lame opinion, is positivity, understatedness, and the willingness to let clients find and discover things on their own. The last one is the hardest.

And yeah, those were my sunglasses. Dammit.


wanderlustmd


Aug 14, 2009, 8:08 AM
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blueeyedclimber wrote:
I am a certified TRSM instructor. I am a lead instructor at an outdoor climbing camp. Yesterday it rained, so we were forced inside. We played some sharks and minnows, did an obstacle course, and played a rope swing game called Peanut Butter and Jelly. I happen to kick ass at this game but my team lost for only like the second or third time all summer. It was rough!

Maybe I should start a blog to let people know how hard the "guiding" life is.

JoshCool

I'm doing an elementary ed program right now. Any lesson planning advice and/or variations on sharks and minnows would be greatly appreciated. I need to keep the little squirts in line come Sept.

I'm not paying $12/hour or anything, though.


blueeyedclimber


Aug 14, 2009, 8:17 AM
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wanderlustmd wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
I am a certified TRSM instructor. I am a lead instructor at an outdoor climbing camp. Yesterday it rained, so we were forced inside. We played some sharks and minnows, did an obstacle course, and played a rope swing game called Peanut Butter and Jelly. I happen to kick ass at this game but my team lost for only like the second or third time all summer. It was rough!

Maybe I should start a blog to let people know how hard the "guiding" life is.

JoshCool

I'm doing an elementary ed program right now. Any lesson planning advice and/or variations on sharks and minnows would be greatly appreciated. I need to keep the little squirts in line come Sept.

I'm not paying $12/hour or anything, though.

Is this at a gym? Afterschool? PE program? etc.

One of my favorite games is the PB & J game. Basically you have two teams and you have to swing from one gym mat to the other. Each round, you switch directions and moves the mats further apart. The further apart they get, the more teamwork it takes to get your team across.

As far as sharks and minnows, instead of saying "fishy fishy, cross my ocean", you could say "climber climber climb my mountain" and the "IT" could be a Yeti or something.

Obstacle course are always fun. We also do the climber olympics and have different events. Just be creative and make stuff up.

Good luck!

Josh


lena_chita
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Aug 14, 2009, 8:21 AM
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wanderlustmd wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
I am a certified TRSM instructor. I am a lead instructor at an outdoor climbing camp. Yesterday it rained, so we were forced inside. We played some sharks and minnows, did an obstacle course, and played a rope swing game called Peanut Butter and Jelly. I happen to kick ass at this game but my team lost for only like the second or third time all summer. It was rough!

Maybe I should start a blog to let people know how hard the "guiding" life is.

JoshCool

I'm doing an elementary ed program right now. Any lesson planning advice and/or variations on sharks and minnows would be greatly appreciated. I need to keep the little squirts in line come Sept.

I'm not paying $12/hour or anything, though.

You are all lame.

I am guiding a summer student through the intricacies of PCR right now. Now THAT is hardship.


marc801


Aug 14, 2009, 8:24 AM
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
And I've only had "epics", if that's what you want to call them, on Cannon (two rain storms, one fall, and one long day).
Weren't you and Jermy the two gumbies that spent 3 days doing a 3 pitch easy aid choss tower in Moab?

Gmburns2000 wrote:
Having about 600 pitches or so spread over ten years under my belt,...
Wow. 60 pitches a year. A light day at the Gunks is maybe 6 pitches, so you're suggesting that 10 days a year is a wealth of experience?


Gmburns2000 wrote:
...four really bad days on Cannon really isn't indicative poor decision-making.
Isn't that 100% of your days on Cannon? And information about how best to deal with Cannon isn't exactly hard to come by, starting with all the good info in the guidebook.

Gmburns2000 wrote:
Sometimes shit happens,...
But it seems to happen inordinately frequently to you and Germy.

[Edit for spelling]


(This post was edited by marc801 on Aug 14, 2009, 8:27 AM)


gmggg


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lena_chita wrote:
wanderlustmd wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
I am a certified TRSM instructor. I am a lead instructor at an outdoor climbing camp. Yesterday it rained, so we were forced inside. We played some sharks and minnows, did an obstacle course, and played a rope swing game called Peanut Butter and Jelly. I happen to kick ass at this game but my team lost for only like the second or third time all summer. It was rough!

Maybe I should start a blog to let people know how hard the "guiding" life is.

JoshCool

I'm doing an elementary ed program right now. Any lesson planning advice and/or variations on sharks and minnows would be greatly appreciated. I need to keep the little squirts in line come Sept.

I'm not paying $12/hour or anything, though.

You are all lame.

I am guiding a summer student through the intricacies of PCR right now. Now THAT is hardship.

I bet your thermal cycler weighs the same as Jeremiah's Cannon pack.


wonderwoman


Aug 14, 2009, 8:29 AM
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marc801 wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
...four really bad days on Cannon really isn't indicative poor decision-making.
Isn't that 100% of your days on Cannon? And information about how best to deal with Cannon isn't exactly hard to come by, starting with all the good info in the guidebook.

I dunno about that... I had an epic just getting to the base of WGR by following the description of one particular mis-guidebook.


olderic


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marc801 wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
Jake, for context, which both of us have noted above (and so did my blog post on my recent Cannon trip), we took the extra stuff because we wanted to hike to the summit after climbing, and when we had tried to do that a few weeks before we got caught in a nasty rain storm without extra gear.
What "extra gear" does one possibly need for the gentle stroll to the summit (where you can take the tram down)?

In actuality it is more then a "gentle stroll" to the summit from the top out of most Cannon routes. Believe it or not you are only about 1/2 way there (from the road) and the rest typically involves considerable bushwacking. Also the tram typically stops running down around 5PM (a fact I learned the hard way 35 years ago after my partner convinced me that it would be easier to walk up and catch a ride down after we did Blockade (anyone remember that dear departed route?)). It also costs $$ which our poverty stricken heros might not have liked. Finally while it makes some sense to head for the summit from the Lakeview end it's pretty silly to do from the Whitney-G end. Although I doubt our well informed protagonists were aware of all this.


Gmburns2000


Aug 14, 2009, 8:41 AM
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olderic wrote:
marc801 wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
Jake, for context, which both of us have noted above (and so did my blog post on my recent Cannon trip), we took the extra stuff because we wanted to hike to the summit after climbing, and when we had tried to do that a few weeks before we got caught in a nasty rain storm without extra gear.
What "extra gear" does one possibly need for the gentle stroll to the summit (where you can take the tram down)?

In actuality it is more then a "gentle stroll" to the summit from the top out of most Cannon routes. Believe it or not you are only about 1/2 way there (from the road) and the rest typically involves considerable bushwacking. Also the tram typically stops running down around 5PM (a fact I learned the hard way 35 years ago after my partner convinced me that it would be easier to walk up and catch a ride down after we did Blockade (anyone remember that dear departed route?)). It also costs $$ which our poverty stricken heros might not have liked. Finally while it makes some sense to head for the summit from the Lakeview end it's pretty silly to do from the Whitney-G end. Although I doubt our well informed protagonists were aware of all this.

We were not aware of this when we departed for WG. The bushwhacking was pretty much the worst part.


marc801


Aug 14, 2009, 8:48 AM
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olderic wrote:
In actuality it is more then a "gentle stroll" to the summit from the top out of most Cannon routes. Believe it or not you are only about 1/2 way there (from the road) and the rest typically involves considerable bushwacking.
True enough, but compared to 5th class climbing, a bit more like a stroll. Actually, an incredibly annoying stroll - there are far preferable routes to the summit other than from the top of the cliff. Most climbers manage to figure this out prior to their first route on Cannon.

olderic wrote:
Also the tram typically stops running down around 5PM (a fact I learned the hard way 35 years ago after my partner convinced me that it would be easier to walk up and catch a ride down after we did Blockade (anyone remember that dear departed route?)).
Blockade! Yes! I remember doing that pile of loose blocks and flakes and living to tell about it. Gripped out of our collective minds! It fell down about 3 years later.


Gmburns2000


Aug 14, 2009, 8:54 AM
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marc801 wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
And I've only had "epics", if that's what you want to call them, on Cannon (two rain storms, one fall, and one long day).
Weren't you and Jermy the two gumbies that spent 3 days doing a 3 pitch easy aid choss tower in Moab?

To call it three days as a bad thing really isn't fair (in fact, it was really a running joke between me, Jeremiah, and Magnus). The first day was really when we drove out there at 2pm or so, got out of the car, and realized it was too far away to even start hiking in that late in the day. We walked no more than three minutes from the car that first day in search of the road that goes toward the tower (the guidebook did not state that the road is now blocked, which we soon discovered).

The second day was entirely my fault. I was still suffering the lingering effects of an ankle sprain and this was my first time aiding anything, ever. Yeah it was a bolt ladder, but I was freaked by the quarter-inchers with wingnuts and I hadn't climbed at all in about three months (i.e. - I was slow due to a bum ankle, lack of aiding experience, and a complete lack of exercise the past few months).

The third day we got to the top no problem, with Jeremiah leading the way. Had I not tried aiding on the second day, and if either Jeremiah or Magnus had done all the leading from the beginning, it would not have taken more than a day.

In reply to:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
Having about 600 pitches or so spread over ten years under my belt,...
Wow. 60 pitches a year. A light day at the Gunks is maybe 6 pitches, so you're suggesting that 10 days a year is a wealth of experience?

I never said it was a wealth of experience. I said I've only had four "epics" in all of my experience. I also don't think any of those days on Cannon were really epics (getting caught in the rain twice, one fall, one long day).

To suggest that we're dangerous is, well, misinformed.


granite_grrl


Aug 14, 2009, 9:00 AM
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
marc801 wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
The second day was entirely my fault. I was still suffering the lingering effects of an ankle sprain and this was my first time aiding anything, ever. Yeah it was a bolt ladder, but I was freaked by the quarter-inchers with wingnuts and I hadn't climbed at all in about three months (i.e. - I was slow due to a bum ankle, lack of aiding experience, and a complete lack of exercise the past few months).
I hope someone called the whaaaaambulance for you.


gmggg


Aug 14, 2009, 9:03 AM
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granite_grrl wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
marc801 wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
The second day was entirely my fault. I was still suffering the lingering effects of an ankle sprain and this was my first time aiding anything, ever. Yeah it was a bolt ladder, but I was freaked by the quarter-inchers with wingnuts and I hadn't climbed at all in about three months (i.e. - I was slow due to a bum ankle, lack of aiding experience, and a complete lack of exercise the past few months).
I hope someone called the whaaaaambulance for you.

Now that's just ridiculous. The Whaaambulance wouldn't be able to help at all. They needed the ROFLcopter


granite_grrl


Aug 14, 2009, 9:05 AM
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gmggg wrote:
granite_grrl wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
The second day was entirely my fault. I was still suffering the lingering effects of an ankle sprain and this was my first time aiding anything, ever. Yeah it was a bolt ladder, but I was freaked by the quarter-inchers with wingnuts and I hadn't climbed at all in about three months (i.e. - I was slow due to a bum ankle, lack of aiding experience, and a complete lack of exercise the past few months).
I hope someone called the whaaaaambulance for you.

Now that's just ridiculous. The Whaaambulance wouldn't be able to help at all. They needed the ROFLcopter
Or at least some help to fix the cheesetittery.


marc801


Aug 14, 2009, 9:09 AM
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
To suggest that we're dangerous is, well, misinformed.
Incompetent then? Seems that several posters feel that Germy is potentially dangerous, at least in a guiding context. If not in direct action then in attitude.


marc801


Aug 14, 2009, 9:15 AM
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macherry wrote:
it's good advertising for the someone else's guiding business!!!!!Wink
Fixed that for ya!


jakedatc


Aug 14, 2009, 9:17 AM
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Jeremiah has already stated clearly that he is reckless and takes unnecessary risks.. if that's not dangerous i don't know what is.

alright.. maybe calling them epics is too strong. Gumby mistakes, some preventable, that most folks don't go yelling about from the roof tops.


Partner macherry


Aug 14, 2009, 9:27 AM
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marc801 wrote:
macherry wrote:
it's good advertising for the someone else's guiding business!!!!!Wink
Fixed that for ya!

thanks


Gmburns2000


Aug 14, 2009, 9:27 AM
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jakedatc wrote:
alright.. maybe calling them epics is too strong. Gumby mistakes, some preventable, that most folks don't go yelling about from the roof tops.


Maybe. Certainly the first two Cannon debacles were gumby mistakes. We wanted to summit after doing a climb, not by hiking, which is why we made the decisions we made (hiking to the top seemed boring). The third time wasn't a gumby mistake. Jen and I were essentially three pitches behind Tim K (Sr.) when she and I got caught in the rain on the way down. We talked about the weather with Tim for several minutes in the parking lot. We were originally there to do Moby, but based on Tim's advice we chose WG, which is what he was doing. I hardly think that changing plans and discussing plans with someone we both regard as highly competent as gumby or even incompetent.

The fourth time was a fall where I tweaked an ankle that caused us to retreat. I just don't see how my foot slipping is a gumby mistake.

Shouting from the rooftops - that's less shouting and more storytelling. When I write about my trips, its me putting my good and bad experiencs in them. I'd like to think I'm pretty balanced in what I write about.


Partner macherry


Aug 14, 2009, 9:31 AM
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
jakedatc wrote:
alright.. maybe calling them epics is too strong. Gumby mistakes, some preventable, that most folks don't go yelling about from the roof tops.


Maybe. Certainly the first two Cannon debacles were gumby mistakes. We wanted to summit after doing a climb, not by hiking, which is why we made the decisions we made (hiking to the top seemed boring). The third time wasn't a gumby mistake. Jen and I were essentially three pitches behind Tim K (Sr.) when she and I got caught in the rain on the way down. We talked about the weather with Tim for several minutes in the parking lot. We were originally there to do Moby, but based on Tim's advice we chose WG, which is what he was doing. I hardly think that changing plans and discussing plans with someone we both regard as highly competent as gumby or even incompetent.

The fourth time was a fall where I tweaked an ankle that caused us to retreat. I just don't see how my foot slipping is a gumby mistake.

Shouting from the rooftops - that's less shouting and more storytelling. When I write about my trips, its me putting my good and bad experiencs in them. I'd like to think I'm pretty balanced in what I write about.

okay fair enough, i don't think readers have a problem with TR's or epic climbing stories or fuckups. what's at issue here is a supposed guide winging and whining about "his guiding life". everything in his blog says "don't hire me, i'm incompetent."


yodadave


Aug 14, 2009, 9:43 AM
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
Having about 600 pitches or so spread over ten years under my belt,...
Wow. 60 pitches a year. A light day at the Gunks is maybe 6 pitches, so you're suggesting that 10 days a year is a wealth of experience?


I'm not jumping on the you guys suck band wagon by any means but i am interested in how you can become a "guide" with only 600 pitches under your belt. That really isn't much for 10 years of climbing.


jakedatc


Aug 14, 2009, 9:48 AM
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yodadave wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
Having about 600 pitches or so spread over ten years under my belt,...
Wow. 60 pitches a year. A light day at the Gunks is maybe 6 pitches, so you're suggesting that 10 days a year is a wealth of experience?


I'm not jumping on the you guys suck band wagon by any means but i am interested in how you can become a "guide" with only 600 pitches under your belt. That really isn't much for 10 years of climbing.

greg isnt the guide... Jeremiah won't give us any details about his experience or credentials on being a guide.


camhead


Aug 14, 2009, 9:54 AM
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jakedatc wrote:
yodadave wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
Having about 600 pitches or so spread over ten years under my belt,...
Wow. 60 pitches a year. A light day at the Gunks is maybe 6 pitches, so you're suggesting that 10 days a year is a wealth of experience?


I'm not jumping on the you guys suck band wagon by any means but i am interested in how you can become a "guide" with only 600 pitches under your belt. That really isn't much for 10 years of climbing.

greg isnt the guide... Jeremiah won't give us any details about his experience or credentials on being a guide.

yeah, but it is not hard to find evidence between his blog posts and climbing profile.*











*re: Climbing Profile: it's out of date! honest! I climb 5.12 onsight! trad! ground up! second try! You've got to check yerself before you wreck yerself!


jakedatc


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Yea... i liked this bit..

"We both had some trouble at the top." - re: 5.7

"I thought it would be an easy warm up to get started on because it looked that way from the bottom." -re: 5.11b onsite "warm up"

sorry bud.. no one that onsites .11's struggles on 5.7.... anywhere. ever.


Partner macherry


Aug 14, 2009, 10:29 AM
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jakedatc wrote:
yodadave wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
Having about 600 pitches or so spread over ten years under my belt,...
Wow. 60 pitches a year. A light day at the Gunks is maybe 6 pitches, so you're suggesting that 10 days a year is a wealth of experience?


I'm not jumping on the you guys suck band wagon by any means but i am interested in how you can become a "guide" with only 600 pitches under your belt. That really isn't much for 10 years of climbing.

greg isnt the guide... Jeremiah won't give us any details about his experience or credentials on being a guide.

see the thread brotherhood of the rope. he has no credentials


gmggg


Aug 14, 2009, 10:35 AM
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macherry wrote:
jakedatc wrote:
yodadave wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
Having about 600 pitches or so spread over ten years under my belt,...
Wow. 60 pitches a year. A light day at the Gunks is maybe 6 pitches, so you're suggesting that 10 days a year is a wealth of experience?


I'm not jumping on the you guys suck band wagon by any means but i am interested in how you can become a "guide" with only 600 pitches under your belt. That really isn't much for 10 years of climbing.

greg isnt the guide... Jeremiah won't give us any details about his experience or credentials on being a guide.

see the thread brotherhood of the rope. he has no credentials

It seems like the guiding and the blogging come from the same place though. Namely a desire to jump through a process to the end result without having to learn all of the messy details.

Brotherhood of the Rope was a great example of these tendencies...


marc801


Aug 14, 2009, 10:42 AM
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
I said I've only had four "epics" in all of my experience. I also don't think any of those days on Cannon were really epics (getting caught in the rain twice, one fall, one long day).
Using your words:

In reply to:
I've now been on Cannon four times, and can officially state that there is a pattern of some sort of failure.
Epic fail?

In reply to:
Jeremiah and I were lucky enough to have a guide and client climbing below us the first time we tackled the great alpine mountain of the northeast. Route finding was an issue that day, and the guide was instrumental in getting us up the proper pitches even though we hadn't hired him.

Routefinding on Lakeview just isn't that difficult. I thought Germy was a guide?

In reply to:
Jeremiah had forgotten a spare set of clothes (and his sleeping bag, and a jacket, and his sleeping pad, and I accidentally smashed his cellphone charger in the car door earlier in the day, and he accidentally dropped my radio from the bottom of the last pitch before we topped out),
OK. An incompetent one.

In reply to:
the next time Jeremiah and decided to climb Cannon, we (read: he) were determined to hike to the top come rain or shine. This time we were prepared. We weren't going fast and light this time, not if the weather was going to suddenly rise in vengeance from the west where we could not see it coming (Cannon is east-facing). We packed my bag with our gear, our rope, a stove, some food, and the rain fly and poles off my tent for shelter in case we got dumped on again. This time we were going to wait out any storm and stay dry.
No wonder the pack was 20 freaking pounds. At least you admitted that was pretty dumb.

In reply to:
And then it rained harder before the rain turned into a healthy downpour; and the trail became a waterfall, the roots became as slick as ice, the mud as loose as the screws in our brains; and our self-confidence crashed to the point where we thought we were finished, destined to be rescued, freezing, wet, and nearly unconscious until our attitudes reached the depths of darkness that we had never knew existed;
Melodrama much? You sure wrote up the descent as an epic.

In reply to:
would finally get a chance to tackle Moby Grape. Unfortunately, this also meant that everyone else was thinking the same thing. We were lucky, though, in that we were the fourth party to get to the base of Moby Grape at 11am, with one party already on the second pitch and another party working its way up Reppy's.
That would be enough reason to pick something different. Climbing under 3 other parties on Cannon? WTF?

In reply to:
I completely, decidedly, unequivocally, and unabashedly hate most vertical cracks. I think I've found one or two cracks that I really like.....
I fell about four times, with one of those times finding me seeking a way up the lichen-covered arrete to the right instead of fighting the impossible 25-foot stretch of crack that remained above me. I found no other route other than going straight up the crack...so I battled to the top completely exhausted and bruised and banged up all over my feet, shins, forearms, and hands. It was so bad that when I got to the top I was barely able to stand because my ankles were rolling from fatigue.
Yet you still decided to go on with the route and its 3 other pitches of the same grade. Gee, who could predict an epic in the making? I give you credit for deciding to push on, but sometimes retreat before you get hurt is a more rational decision. Really, if you're thinking of climbing Moby, Reppy's shouldn't be as much of a struggle as you described. It's a good ability gauge.

[Edit for improved clarity]


(This post was edited by marc801 on Aug 14, 2009, 10:44 AM)


LostinMaine


Aug 14, 2009, 10:49 AM
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
olderic wrote:
marc801 wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
Jake, for context, which both of us have noted above (and so did my blog post on my recent Cannon trip), we took the extra stuff because we wanted to hike to the summit after climbing, and when we had tried to do that a few weeks before we got caught in a nasty rain storm without extra gear.
What "extra gear" does one possibly need for the gentle stroll to the summit (where you can take the tram down)?

In actuality it is more then a "gentle stroll" to the summit from the top out of most Cannon routes. Believe it or not you are only about 1/2 way there (from the road) and the rest typically involves considerable bushwacking. Also the tram typically stops running down around 5PM (a fact I learned the hard way 35 years ago after my partner convinced me that it would be easier to walk up and catch a ride down after we did Blockade (anyone remember that dear departed route?)). It also costs $$ which our poverty stricken heros might not have liked. Finally while it makes some sense to head for the summit from the Lakeview end it's pretty silly to do from the Whitney-G end. Although I doubt our well informed protagonists were aware of all this.

We were not aware of this when we departed for WG. The bushwhacking was pretty much the worst part.

I haven't read the Cannon Guide in a while, but IIRC, it specifically said that anything left of W-G was silly to climb up or rap down. I think I remember "unsafe bushwack" in the guide book (though admittedly that may have been trying to walk down toward the base of the climbs as well).

At any rate, I do agree with you two that Cannon can be a bitch for weather. Guiding stuff aside, I don't think it's unreasonable to bring a small pack with some bail gear, rain gear, and first aid equipment. To simply call Cannon a 4 or 5 pitch cliff without footnoting the weather and access is a bit unfair to anyone who has climbed there in less-than-perfect conditions (even Jake would agree to that, I would guess).


kriso9tails


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jakedatc wrote:
Yea... i liked this bit..

"We both had some trouble at the top." - re: 5.7

"I thought it would be an easy warm up to get started on because it looked that way from the bottom." -re: 5.11b onsite "warm up"

sorry bud.. no one that onsites .11's struggles on 5.7.... anywhere. ever.

Sometimes I'll have trouble on a 5.7 crack. At a certain point in the route I think to myself, "I know I've done this move before; it was just ten seconds ago so how can it possibly be appearing before me again? There's no way!" At that point I become convinced that I'm stuck in some sort of never-ending temporal-spatial loop and abandon all hope.


jakedatc


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kriso9tails wrote:
jakedatc wrote:
Yea... i liked this bit..

"We both had some trouble at the top." - re: 5.7

"I thought it would be an easy warm up to get started on because it looked that way from the bottom." -re: 5.11b onsite "warm up"

sorry bud.. no one that onsites .11's struggles on 5.7.... anywhere. ever.

Sometimes I'll have trouble on a 5.7 crack. At a certain point in the route I think to myself, "I know I've done this move before; it was just ten seconds ago so how can it possibly be appearing before me again? There's no way!" At that point I become convinced that I'm stuck in some sort of never-ending temporal-spatial loop and abandon all hope.

I just don't climb vertical cracks on principle.. i don't think they are fun to climb at all so i don't do it.

LostinMaine.. i wouldn't consider 20lbs of shit "a small backpack of gear" that's 80% of a week long backpack kit.. there's prepared and there is overkill that could contribute to slowing things down.


socalclimber


Aug 14, 2009, 11:08 AM
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All details aside, what we are dealing with here is someone who is clearly pirate guiding that has no business guiding at all.

Climbing skills and guiding skills are two completely different things.

He apparently has neither.


(This post was edited by socalclimber on Aug 14, 2009, 11:08 AM)


gmggg


Aug 14, 2009, 11:08 AM
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jakedatc wrote:
kriso9tails wrote:
jakedatc wrote:
Yea... i liked this bit..

"We both had some trouble at the top." - re: 5.7

"I thought it would be an easy warm up to get started on because it looked that way from the bottom." -re: 5.11b onsite "warm up"

sorry bud.. no one that onsites .11's struggles on 5.7.... anywhere. ever.

Sometimes I'll have trouble on a 5.7 crack. At a certain point in the route I think to myself, "I know I've done this move before; it was just ten seconds ago so how can it possibly be appearing before me again? There's no way!" At that point I become convinced that I'm stuck in some sort of never-ending temporal-spatial loop and abandon all hope.

I just don't climb vertical cracks on principle.. i don't think they are fun to climb at all so i don't do it.

LostinMaine.. i wouldn't consider 20lbs of shit "a small backpack of gear" that's 80% of a week long backpack kit.. there's prepared and there is overkill that could contribute to slowing things down.

Have you seen the people on winter day hikes on mt Washington? 20lbs is ultralight.


dynosore


Aug 14, 2009, 11:18 AM
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camhead wrote:
jakedatc wrote:
yodadave wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
Having about 600 pitches or so spread over ten years under my belt,...
Wow. 60 pitches a year. A light day at the Gunks is maybe 6 pitches, so you're suggesting that 10 days a year is a wealth of experience?


I'm not jumping on the you guys suck band wagon by any means but i am interested in how you can become a "guide" with only 600 pitches under your belt. That really isn't much for 10 years of climbing.

greg isnt the guide... Jeremiah won't give us any details about his experience or credentials on being a guide.

yeah, but it is not hard to find evidence between his blog posts and climbing profile.*











*re: Climbing Profile: it's out of date! honest! I climb 5.12 onsight! trad! ground up! second try! You've got to check yerself before you wreck yerself!

NOOB guides on your rope are bad for yer health.....


socalclimber


Aug 14, 2009, 11:32 AM
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camhead wrote:
granite_grrl wrote:
jakedatc wrote:
In reply to:
Luckily she didn't know that I am an avid risk taker and that a risk I would take would not be one which she would want her daughter exposed.

please stop taking anyone but Greg out climbing... immediately. you are a danger to yourself and the people who think you have a clue as to what you are doing.
Agreed. This quote made my jaw drop. Jerimiah's attempts to make himself look like a hardcore risk taker makes me sick, and is certainly not someone that I'll ever rope up with.

If someone really wanted to be a dick, he could forward the blog post to Jer's boss or guiding company.

I wouldn't, but I will say that when I was guiding (though not rock), there was no way in hell I would post stuff like that online for everyone to see. Half facetious quips like the "risk" one are fine with beers around the campfire with friends, but not for the whole world to read and misconstrue.

This is based on the assumption that he is indeed working for a legit school. I'm betting he's not.

This guy and his budy who is busy defending him are both a couple of dangerous idiots.


jakedatc


Aug 14, 2009, 11:44 AM
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gmggg wrote:
jakedatc wrote:
kriso9tails wrote:
jakedatc wrote:
Yea... i liked this bit..

"We both had some trouble at the top." - re: 5.7

"I thought it would be an easy warm up to get started on because it looked that way from the bottom." -re: 5.11b onsite "warm up"

sorry bud.. no one that onsites .11's struggles on 5.7.... anywhere. ever.

Sometimes I'll have trouble on a 5.7 crack. At a certain point in the route I think to myself, "I know I've done this move before; it was just ten seconds ago so how can it possibly be appearing before me again? There's no way!" At that point I become convinced that I'm stuck in some sort of never-ending temporal-spatial loop and abandon all hope.

I just don't climb vertical cracks on principle.. i don't think they are fun to climb at all so i don't do it.

LostinMaine.. i wouldn't consider 20lbs of shit "a small backpack of gear" that's 80% of a week long backpack kit.. there's prepared and there is overkill that could contribute to slowing things down.

Have you seen the people on winter day hikes on mt Washington? 20lbs is ultralight.

Does this look like winter... or Mt washington to you?



lemon_boy


Aug 14, 2009, 11:45 AM
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wow, pretty scary. i sure miss the good old days, when chumps who graduated from liberal arts colleges, with degrees like "wilderness therapy" and nonsense like that just worked at starbucks for the rest of their lives.

i know quite a few guides, and none of them are anything like you. you should quit while you are ahead before you kill yourself (not that big of a deal) or worse, kill somebody else (big deal).


marc801


Aug 14, 2009, 11:58 AM
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jakedatc wrote:
gmggg wrote:
jakedatc wrote:
LostinMaine.. i wouldn't consider 20lbs of shit "a small backpack of gear" that's 80% of a week long backpack kit.. there's prepared and there is overkill that could contribute to slowing things down.

Have you seen the people on winter day hikes on mt Washington? 20lbs is ultralight.

Does this look like winter... or Mt washington to you?
From Gumby-Burns blog, the contents of that pack:
In reply to:
We packed my bag with our gear, our rope, a stove, some food, and the rain fly and poles off my tent for shelter in case we got dumped on again.
We'll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume the rope and gear were in use at the time and not in the pack. Stove?? Rainfly and poles???? For a 2+ hr round trip bushwack? Haven't they heard of powerbars and lightweight rain gear?


cfnubbler


Aug 14, 2009, 11:58 AM
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
[The fourth time was a fall where I tweaked an ankle that caused us to retreat. I just don't see how my foot slipping is a gumby mistake.

You don't see how falling off of 5.8 handjams and bouncing off a slab is a gumby mistake? Seriously?


Partner angry


Aug 14, 2009, 12:02 PM
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Here's what I don't understand about the whole deal.

Why the eff would someone want to be a guide? It sure seems like the quickest possible way to hate climbing and everything about climbing.

If you're fortunate enough to not be a guide, count your blessings and go back to your job. Climbing is meant to be enjoyed on your days off.


LostinMaine


Aug 14, 2009, 12:03 PM
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jakedatc wrote:
kriso9tails wrote:
jakedatc wrote:
Yea... i liked this bit..

"We both had some trouble at the top." - re: 5.7

"I thought it would be an easy warm up to get started on because it looked that way from the bottom." -re: 5.11b onsite "warm up"

sorry bud.. no one that onsites .11's struggles on 5.7.... anywhere. ever.

Sometimes I'll have trouble on a 5.7 crack. At a certain point in the route I think to myself, "I know I've done this move before; it was just ten seconds ago so how can it possibly be appearing before me again? There's no way!" At that point I become convinced that I'm stuck in some sort of never-ending temporal-spatial loop and abandon all hope.

I just don't climb vertical cracks on principle.. i don't think they are fun to climb at all so i don't do it.

LostinMaine.. i wouldn't consider 20lbs of shit "a small backpack of gear" that's 80% of a week long backpack kit.. there's prepared and there is overkill that could contribute to slowing things down.

I wouldn't consider a 20-pound pack filled with tent gear necessary either... that's why I said a small pack with some bail and emergency gear would be more appropriate for that location (which I thought you might agree to). I'm not justifying their specific gear, just throwing in my two pennies on the unpredictable nature of Cannon climbing.


jakedatc


Aug 14, 2009, 12:11 PM
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LostinMaine wrote:
jakedatc wrote:
kriso9tails wrote:
jakedatc wrote:
Yea... i liked this bit..

"We both had some trouble at the top." - re: 5.7

"I thought it would be an easy warm up to get started on because it looked that way from the bottom." -re: 5.11b onsite "warm up"

sorry bud.. no one that onsites .11's struggles on 5.7.... anywhere. ever.

Sometimes I'll have trouble on a 5.7 crack. At a certain point in the route I think to myself, "I know I've done this move before; it was just ten seconds ago so how can it possibly be appearing before me again? There's no way!" At that point I become convinced that I'm stuck in some sort of never-ending temporal-spatial loop and abandon all hope.

I just don't climb vertical cracks on principle.. i don't think they are fun to climb at all so i don't do it.

LostinMaine.. i wouldn't consider 20lbs of shit "a small backpack of gear" that's 80% of a week long backpack kit.. there's prepared and there is overkill that could contribute to slowing things down.

I wouldn't consider a 20-pound pack filled with tent gear necessary either... that's why I said a small pack with some bail and emergency gear would be more appropriate for that location (which I thought you might agree to). I'm not justifying their specific gear, just throwing in my two pennies on the unpredictable nature of Cannon climbing.

I recognized that.. i wasn't disagreeing with you. I learned when i first started trad climbing that moving quickly and efficiently was one of the more important skills to develop. Getting up and off a route quickly is a much better option than bringing a crapton of gear in anticipation of being slow. tent poles? lol bring a small tarp to cover yourself.. you don't need to build camp


gmggg


Aug 14, 2009, 12:12 PM
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jakedatc wrote:
Does this look like winter... or Mt washington to you?

I was just pointing out that this outfitting style is Tres Chic for the urban climbing crowd in the NE. After all, you have to make use of that junk at some point so as not to feel bad about buying it.

Just to show a little empathy I will admit I always get laughed at out here for bringing way too much water. I got used to having NO access to water in California and it doesn't bother me all that much to carry a couple gallons for a weekend. That might put me at +20lbs including climbing gear occasionally. I wouldn't think that would be a problem on the WG though...


(This post was edited by gmggg on Aug 14, 2009, 12:20 PM)


Gmburns2000


Aug 14, 2009, 12:19 PM
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marc801 wrote:
In reply to:
would finally get a chance to tackle Moby Grape. Unfortunately, this also meant that everyone else was thinking the same thing. We were lucky, though, in that we were the fourth party to get to the base of Moby Grape at 11am, with one party already on the second pitch and another party working its way up Reppy's.
That would be enough reason to pick something different. Climbing under 3 other parties on Cannon? WTF?

actually, out all the days that I've been on Cannon, none have ever been days when there weren't other parties on the routes we were doing. Moby and WG are pretty much conga lines. And I've been on those routes, in those conga lines, with people who I knew had considerable experience below other parties (as we were).

Cannon isn't a death trap if you're on established, well-worn routes. Yeah, you've got to be careful, particularly on the ledges where there are piles of loose rock, but the most-used routes are actually fairly clean at this point in the season. I take precautions, but I don't run away.

In reply to:
In reply to:
I completely, decidedly, unequivocally, and unabashedly hate most vertical cracks. I think I've found one or two cracks that I really like.....
I fell about four times, with one of those times finding me seeking a way up the lichen-covered arrete to the right instead of fighting the impossible 25-foot stretch of crack that remained above me. I found no other route other than going straight up the crack...so I battled to the top completely exhausted and bruised and banged up all over my feet, shins, forearms, and hands. It was so bad that when I got to the top I was barely able to stand because my ankles were rolling from fatigue.
Yet you still decided to go on with the route and its 3 other pitches of the same grade. Gee, who could predict an epic in the making? I give you credit for deciding to push on, but sometimes retreat before you get hurt is a more rational decision. Really, if you're thinking of climbing Moby, Reppy's shouldn't be as much of a struggle as you described. It's a good ability gauge.

[Edit for improved clarity]

It wasn't the 5.8 grade that was a problem. I'm pretty solid on 5.8 in general. Some 5.8 trad climbs push me while others come quite easily. It's vertical crack in particular that is difficult for me.

But just because I really don't like vertical crack that doesn't mean I'm going shy away from it. I mean, you have to keep trying to stuff get better at it. I'll admit that I'm not very good at getting better at crack, but it is what it is. I told my partner that day that I didn't think I could lead Reppy's, so she did. I really don't understand what is so irresponsible about that. I've never in my life heard anything that said I had to be able to lead in order to second.

My partner led Reppy's and she did fine. I fell all over the place as the second. I really don't see why falling on a specific type of feature is grounds for immediate descent. Other than a few cracks here and there the rest of the way, it's pretty much face and slab after Reppy's (depending on how you do the Finger of Faith). The roof has a jam crack, too, but I actually got past that part and had both feet up over the roof. I only fell on the Triangle Roof because my foot slipped. I landed awkwardly and hurt my ankle. if I hadn't hurt my ankle then I wouldn't have retreated. I wouldn't have even thought about retreating, in fact.

There was nothing to suggest that we should have turned back. There was no reason to think there was an imminent injury waiting for us above. It's an absurd assumption to say that because the first pitch was hard for me we should have turned around. I actually pulled the roof on P3 and had a solid hand jam that I felt good moving from. MY FOOT SLIPPED! That's it! If I hadn't tweaked my ankle then I would have gone back up and made sure not to let my foot slip.

This is the last I'm going to comment on this particular subject. If you think I never should have been on Moby in the first place then fine, we'll be shooting bullets past each other. Weather permitting, I fully plan on going back up to Moby again before the year is out.


Partner epoch
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Aug 14, 2009, 12:22 PM
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gmggg wrote:
jakedatc wrote:
Does this look like winter... or Mt washington to you?

I was just pointing out that that outfitting style is Tres Chic for the urban climbing crowd in the NE. After all you have to make use of that junk at some point so as not to feel bad about buying it.

Just to show a little empathy I will admit I always get laughed at out here for bringing way too much water. I got used to having NO access to water in California and it doesn't bother me all that much to carry a couple gallons for a weekend. That might put me at +20lbs including climbing gear occasionally. I wouldn't think that would be a problem on the WG though...

I am a water-whore from out west, too. I still find myself bringing between 3 - 4 liters of water for a day of climbing. Then again, the air is thick here, and the heat has this wetness to it that I have yet grown accustomed to. I sweat like crazy regardless of the season.




Too much crap in the pack for an alpine ascent. Though, I agree that Canon is the most alpine-like setting in the North East. It is not, however, alpine in my opinion. I carry a super small pack when doing summer alpine stuff. Usually 3ltrs of water, a rain jacket, first aid kit, lunch, and maybe one of my tent groundcloths for emergency shelter. Total weight depends on the water as everything else is super light.

Light is right and speed in an alpine situation, or on an inherently dangerous precipice can make/break a sucessful ascent.


(This post was edited by epoch on Aug 14, 2009, 12:24 PM)


Gmburns2000


Aug 14, 2009, 12:37 PM
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angry wrote:
Here's what I don't understand about the whole deal.

Why the eff would someone want to be a guide? It sure seems like the quickest possible way to hate climbing and everything about climbing.

If you're fortunate enough to not be a guide, count your blessings and go back to your job. Climbing is meant to be enjoyed on your days off.

Personally, I agree. While I think guide's do offer a good service to a specific population, I'd never want to be one. I'm just not good at catering to people anymore (cranky in my old age). I used to sea kayak and mtn bike guide when I was kid in college. It was a fun job then. I couldn't do it now.


Gmburns2000


Aug 14, 2009, 12:39 PM
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epoch wrote:
gmggg wrote:
jakedatc wrote:
Does this look like winter... or Mt washington to you?

I was just pointing out that that outfitting style is Tres Chic for the urban climbing crowd in the NE. After all you have to make use of that junk at some point so as not to feel bad about buying it.

Just to show a little empathy I will admit I always get laughed at out here for bringing way too much water. I got used to having NO access to water in California and it doesn't bother me all that much to carry a couple gallons for a weekend. That might put me at +20lbs including climbing gear occasionally. I wouldn't think that would be a problem on the WG though...

I am a water-whore from out west, too. I still find myself bringing between 3 - 4 liters of water for a day of climbing. Then again, the air is thick here, and the heat has this wetness to it that I have yet grown accustomed to. I sweat like crazy regardless of the season.




Too much crap in the pack for an alpine ascent. Though, I agree that Canon is the most alpine-like setting in the North East. It is not, however, alpine in my opinion. I carry a super small pack when doing summer alpine stuff. Usually 3ltrs of water, a rain jacket, first aid kit, lunch, and maybe one of my tent groundcloths for emergency shelter. Total weight depends on the water as everything else is super light.

Light is right and speed in an alpine situation, or on an inherently dangerous precipice can make/break a sucessful ascent.

That's what I've brought the past two times up Cannon (definitely learned my lesson), except no tent supplies.


gmggg


Aug 14, 2009, 12:39 PM
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epoch wrote:
gmggg wrote:
jakedatc wrote:
Does this look like winter... or Mt washington to you?

I was just pointing out that that outfitting style is Tres Chic for the urban climbing crowd in the NE. After all you have to make use of that junk at some point so as not to feel bad about buying it.

Just to show a little empathy I will admit I always get laughed at out here for bringing way too much water. I got used to having NO access to water in California and it doesn't bother me all that much to carry a couple gallons for a weekend. That might put me at +20lbs including climbing gear occasionally. I wouldn't think that would be a problem on the WG though...

I am a water-whore from out west, too. I still find myself bringing between 3 - 4 liters of water for a day of climbing. Then again, the air is thick here, and the heat has this wetness to it that I have yet grown accustomed to. I sweat like crazy regardless of the season.




Too much crap in the pack for an alpine ascent. Though, I agree that Canon is the most alpine-like setting in the North East. It is not, however, alpine in my opinion. I carry a super small pack when doing summer alpine stuff. Usually 3ltrs of water, a rain jacket, first aid kit, lunch, and maybe one of my tent groundcloths for emergency shelter. Total weight depends on the water as everything else is super light.

Light is right and speed in an alpine situation, or on an inherently dangerous precipice can make/break a sucessful ascent.

Hear Hear! I think dead winter is about the only time I can be outside without drowning.

Canon is certainly alpine in crumble and weather, but it is still less than a mile from where you parked :)


marc801


Aug 14, 2009, 12:40 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
It wasn't the 5.8 grade that was a problem. I'm pretty solid on 5.8 in general. Some 5.8 trad climbs push me while others come quite easily. It's vertical crack in particular that is difficult for me.

But just because I really don't like vertical crack that doesn't mean I'm going shy away from it. I mean, you have to keep trying to stuff get better at it. I'll admit that I'm not very good at getting better at crack, but it is what it is. I told my partner that day that I didn't think I could lead Reppy's, so she did. I really don't understand what is so irresponsible about that. I've never in my life heard anything that said I had to be able to lead in order to second.

My partner led Reppy's and she did fine. I fell all over the place as the second. I really don't see why falling on a specific type of feature is grounds for immediate descent. Other than a few cracks here and there the rest of the way, it's pretty much face and slab after Reppy's (depending on how you do the Finger of Faith). The roof has a jam crack, too, but I actually got past that part and had both feet up over the roof. I only fell on the Triangle Roof because my foot slipped. I landed awkwardly and hurt my ankle. if I hadn't hurt my ankle then I wouldn't have retreated. I wouldn't have even thought about retreating, in fact.

There was nothing to suggest that we should have turned back. There was no reason to think there was an imminent injury waiting for us above. It's an absurd assumption to say that because the first pitch was hard for me we should have turned around. I actually pulled the roof on P3 and had a solid hand jam that I felt good moving from. MY FOOT SLIPPED! That's it! If I hadn't tweaked my ankle then I would have gone back up and made sure not to let my foot slip.

This is the last I'm going to comment on this particular subject. If you think I never should have been on Moby in the first place then fine, we'll be shooting bullets past each other. Weather permitting, I fully plan on going back up to Moby again before the year is out.
That's all fine and it may indeed be that simple. But you wrote it up on your blog as a major epic. I've seen less melodramatic writing about entire Himalayan ascents than what you crammed into describing a 160' 5.8 hand crack. If you're gonna go off the deep end of hyperbole in your writing, then you have to expect people are going to react to that rather than the "real" story, especially if you decide to obscure the latter.


Gmburns2000


Aug 14, 2009, 12:42 PM
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marc801 wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
It wasn't the 5.8 grade that was a problem. I'm pretty solid on 5.8 in general. Some 5.8 trad climbs push me while others come quite easily. It's vertical crack in particular that is difficult for me.

But just because I really don't like vertical crack that doesn't mean I'm going shy away from it. I mean, you have to keep trying to stuff get better at it. I'll admit that I'm not very good at getting better at crack, but it is what it is. I told my partner that day that I didn't think I could lead Reppy's, so she did. I really don't understand what is so irresponsible about that. I've never in my life heard anything that said I had to be able to lead in order to second.

My partner led Reppy's and she did fine. I fell all over the place as the second. I really don't see why falling on a specific type of feature is grounds for immediate descent. Other than a few cracks here and there the rest of the way, it's pretty much face and slab after Reppy's (depending on how you do the Finger of Faith). The roof has a jam crack, too, but I actually got past that part and had both feet up over the roof. I only fell on the Triangle Roof because my foot slipped. I landed awkwardly and hurt my ankle. if I hadn't hurt my ankle then I wouldn't have retreated. I wouldn't have even thought about retreating, in fact.

There was nothing to suggest that we should have turned back. There was no reason to think there was an imminent injury waiting for us above. It's an absurd assumption to say that because the first pitch was hard for me we should have turned around. I actually pulled the roof on P3 and had a solid hand jam that I felt good moving from. MY FOOT SLIPPED! That's it! If I hadn't tweaked my ankle then I would have gone back up and made sure not to let my foot slip.

This is the last I'm going to comment on this particular subject. If you think I never should have been on Moby in the first place then fine, we'll be shooting bullets past each other. Weather permitting, I fully plan on going back up to Moby again before the year is out.
That's all fine and it may indeed be that simple. But you wrote it up on your blog as a major epic. I've seen less melodramatic writing about entire Himalayan ascents than what you crammed into describing a 160' 5.8 hand crack. If you're gonna go off the deep end of hyperbole in your writing, then you have to expect people are going to react to that rather than the "real" story, especially if you decide to obscure the latter.

That's fair criticism. Thanks.


cfnubbler


Aug 14, 2009, 12:47 PM
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How do you know a guide at a party?










He'll tell you.


boymeetsrock


Aug 14, 2009, 12:55 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
marc801 wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
It wasn't the 5.8 grade that was a problem. I'm pretty solid on 5.8 in general. Some 5.8 trad climbs push me while others come quite easily. It's vertical crack in particular that is difficult for me.

But just because I really don't like vertical crack that doesn't mean I'm going shy away from it. I mean, you have to keep trying to stuff get better at it. I'll admit that I'm not very good at getting better at crack, but it is what it is. I told my partner that day that I didn't think I could lead Reppy's, so she did. I really don't understand what is so irresponsible about that. I've never in my life heard anything that said I had to be able to lead in order to second.

My partner led Reppy's and she did fine. I fell all over the place as the second. I really don't see why falling on a specific type of feature is grounds for immediate descent. Other than a few cracks here and there the rest of the way, it's pretty much face and slab after Reppy's (depending on how you do the Finger of Faith). The roof has a jam crack, too, but I actually got past that part and had both feet up over the roof. I only fell on the Triangle Roof because my foot slipped. I landed awkwardly and hurt my ankle. if I hadn't hurt my ankle then I wouldn't have retreated. I wouldn't have even thought about retreating, in fact.

There was nothing to suggest that we should have turned back. There was no reason to think there was an imminent injury waiting for us above. It's an absurd assumption to say that because the first pitch was hard for me we should have turned around. I actually pulled the roof on P3 and had a solid hand jam that I felt good moving from. MY FOOT SLIPPED! That's it! If I hadn't tweaked my ankle then I would have gone back up and made sure not to let my foot slip.

This is the last I'm going to comment on this particular subject. If you think I never should have been on Moby in the first place then fine, we'll be shooting bullets past each other. Weather permitting, I fully plan on going back up to Moby again before the year is out.
That's all fine and it may indeed be that simple. But you wrote it up on your blog as a major epic. I've seen less melodramatic writing about entire Himalayan ascents than what you crammed into describing a 160' 5.8 hand crack. If you're gonna go off the deep end of hyperbole in your writing, then you have to expect people are going to react to that rather than the "real" story, especially if you decide to obscure the latter.

That's fair criticism. Thanks.


Sorry to but in here... But you should teach Jeremiah how to say that ^^^. And mean it.


Partner epoch
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Aug 14, 2009, 12:56 PM
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cfnubbler wrote:
How do you know a guide at a party?










He'll tell you.

heh


saxfiend


Aug 14, 2009, 1:39 PM
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As if this blog wasn't already pathetic enough, now he's deleted all the negative comments posted in response (I saw them before they were deleted so I know they were negative).

Much loss of face.

JL


Gmburns2000


Aug 14, 2009, 1:45 PM
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saxfiend wrote:
As if this blog wasn't already pathetic enough, now he's deleted all the negative comments posted in response (I saw them before they were deleted so I know they were negative).

Much loss of face.

JL

I deleted the ones that were anonymous (yes, the Messner one was also anonymous). If you've got something to say then put your name on it. I've not been a coward standing up here replying to folks, and everyone knows my name. I expect folks who comment to do the same.

For clarity, they were negative as he says. That is irrelevant. I've kept negative comments on the blog before.


edge


Aug 14, 2009, 1:50 PM
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Bottom line:

If you go about your business without the self-important blog bugling, then really no one would care one way or another. You will still be unsafe and unqualified, but at least you can hide from the greater knowledgeable climbing community.

If, however, every day out is an excuse to epic and blow hangnails into a Joe Brown-worthy epic, then perhaps someone needs to re-read "Goodnight Moon," which tells an entertaining tale without endangering anyone's life.

Although I bet that bunny would make an awesome fricassee if he cratered on a roadside 5.7. No way I would cart him off Cannon for a free stew.


saxfiend


Aug 14, 2009, 1:53 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
I deleted the ones that were anonymous
Weak. Really weak.

Oh, and welcome to the internet.

JL


kriso9tails


Aug 14, 2009, 2:08 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
saxfiend wrote:
As if this blog wasn't already pathetic enough, now he's deleted all the negative comments posted in response (I saw them before they were deleted so I know they were negative).

Much loss of face.

JL

I deleted the ones that were anonymous (yes, the Messner one was also anonymous). If you've got something to say then put your name on it. I've not been a coward standing up here replying to folks, and everyone knows my name. I expect folks who comment to do the same.

For clarity, they were negative as he says. That is irrelevant. I've kept negative comments on the blog before.

You can't disable anonymous posting in any way? Would you prefer that I use a pseudonym instead of 'anonymous'?


Gmburns2000


Aug 14, 2009, 2:53 PM
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kriso9tails wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
saxfiend wrote:
As if this blog wasn't already pathetic enough, now he's deleted all the negative comments posted in response (I saw them before they were deleted so I know they were negative).

Much loss of face.

JL

I deleted the ones that were anonymous (yes, the Messner one was also anonymous). If you've got something to say then put your name on it. I've not been a coward standing up here replying to folks, and everyone knows my name. I expect folks who comment to do the same.

For clarity, they were negative as he says. That is irrelevant. I've kept negative comments on the blog before.

You can't disable anonymous posting in any way? Would you prefer that I use a pseudonym instead of 'anonymous'?

no, your real name, or something close enough that it identifies you.


wanderlustmd


Aug 14, 2009, 2:56 PM
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blueeyedclimber wrote:
wanderlustmd wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
I am a certified TRSM instructor. I am a lead instructor at an outdoor climbing camp. Yesterday it rained, so we were forced inside. We played some sharks and minnows, did an obstacle course, and played a rope swing game called Peanut Butter and Jelly. I happen to kick ass at this game but my team lost for only like the second or third time all summer. It was rough!

Maybe I should start a blog to let people know how hard the "guiding" life is.

JoshCool

I'm doing an elementary ed program right now. Any lesson planning advice and/or variations on sharks and minnows would be greatly appreciated. I need to keep the little squirts in line come Sept.

I'm not paying $12/hour or anything, though.

Is this at a gym? Afterschool? PE program? etc.

One of my favorite games is the PB & J game. Basically you have two teams and you have to swing from one gym mat to the other. Each round, you switch directions and moves the mats further apart. The further apart they get, the more teamwork it takes to get your team across.

As far as sharks and minnows, instead of saying "fishy fishy, cross my ocean", you could say "climber climber climb my mountain" and the "IT" could be a Yeti or something.

Obstacle course are always fun. We also do the climber olympics and have different events. Just be creative and make stuff up.

Good luck!

Josh
No, it's a K-8 Gen. Ed. certification program. 9 months. I'll be in a regular second grade classroom, but am supposed to contribute to each part of their day in some way over the course of the semester. So, teach them a game in gym class, do an art activity in Art, etc.

Thanks for the info!

Back to your regularly scheduled thread.


socalclimber


Aug 14, 2009, 4:36 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
This is a new series on the blog. The hope is to give light to the lives of guides and not just focus on the climbing.

The focus of this series is less about the "how to" of climbing / guiding and more about the personal side instead.

This first post, An Unpleasant Start, is a new series on the ups and downs of being a guide: from networking trips gone wrong, to personal sacrifices (money, relationships, travel, climbing for work's sake vs. having fun), and how a hired trip can start off bad and end up good. It's about being young and learning.

There is absolutely nothing in this tripe that even remotely resembles the "life of a guide" other than some bullshit pity party on behalf the person who wrote it.

In reply to:
BTW - if there are any guides out there who would like to contribute, please let me know. We're looking for different perspectives.

You've gotta be fucking kidding me....


gmggg


Aug 14, 2009, 6:54 PM
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socalclimber wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
This is a new series on the blog. The hope is to give light to the lives of guides and not just focus on the climbing.

The focus of this series is less about the "how to" of climbing / guiding and more about the personal side instead.

This first post, An Unpleasant Start, is a new series on the ups and downs of being a guide: from networking trips gone wrong, to personal sacrifices (money, relationships, travel, climbing for work's sake vs. having fun), and how a hired trip can start off bad and end up good. It's about being young and learning.

There is absolutely nothing in this tripe that even remotely resembles the "life of a guide" other than some bullshit pity party on behalf the person who wrote it.

In reply to:
BTW - if there are any guides out there who would like to contribute, please let me know. We're looking for different perspectives.

You've gotta be fucking kidding me....

I hope you read this thread instead of the blog, it is much more entertaining, and in some ways more relevant to the topic of the blog...


socalclimber


Aug 14, 2009, 7:07 PM
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Oh yeah, I've read both. The blog is too pathetic to read in it's entirety.


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Aug 14, 2009, 7:07 PM
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I am still not going to read your blog.


knieveltech


Aug 14, 2009, 7:13 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
If you've got something to say then put your name on it.

If that's the way you feel that's perfectly acceptable (and honestly it doesn't make much sense to allow anon comments anyway, you're basically begging for spam and other bullshit), however you need to reconfigure your site to disable anon commenting immediately. Otherwise you can't (with any kind of credibility) say you're deleting unsigned comments and censorship has nothing to do with it.

While you're in the midst of this massive shit throwing contest something you might want to consider: there are several pro bloggers that make rent off "you're a fucking gumby" style hatemail. A large reader base of folks who absolutely hate your fucking guts can generate as much (or more) revenue for a blog than normal readers. It's because the ones that hate you will keep coming back to see what kind of response their flame got from the rest of the echo chamber. They'll also revisit your post and re-read it several times looking for new things to nitpick. That's ad revenue right there.


socalclimber


Aug 14, 2009, 8:02 PM
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knieveltech wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
If you've got something to say then put your name on it.

If that's the way you feel that's perfectly acceptable (and honestly it doesn't make much sense to allow anon comments anyway, you're basically begging for spam and other bullshit), however you need to reconfigure your site to disable anon commenting immediately. Otherwise you can't (with any kind of credibility) say you're deleting unsigned comments and censorship has nothing to do with it.

While you're in the midst of this massive shit throwing contest something you might want to consider: there are several pro bloggers that make rent off "you're a fucking gumby" style hatemail. A large reader base of folks who absolutely hate your fucking guts can generate as much (or more) revenue for a blog than normal readers. It's because the ones that hate you will keep coming back to see what kind of response their flame got from the rest of the echo chamber. They'll also revisit your post and re-read it several times looking for new things to nitpick. That's ad revenue right there.

This is brilliant!


Bag11s


Aug 14, 2009, 8:49 PM
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Jeremiah-

This shit storm regarding your blog entry swirls for a succession of what I take to be unintentional transgressions. Not least, you let the Burnsmeister post the link here, subjecting you to the full barracuda school, fresh off their taste for blood recently stimulated by ‘The Brotherhood of the Rope” which was consumed with much gusto. Then there’s the essay’s pervasive complaining tone, which to me looks like it boils down to frustration over not getting enough climbing in this year. In addition, there’s the wearing of your heart on your sleeve, which many find either unseemly or else the perfect opportunity to prepare the vat of boiling oil for the express satisfaction of dumping it on you. Then there’s the criticism over your abilities and qualifications for guiding, all of which it seemed you yourself inserted as a subtext between the lines of your piece, whether knowingly or not who can say.

Even a quick survey of your profile ascent log makes it clear that you absolutely love to climb. You’ve gained progressive experience in each year you’ve recorded. You climbed many routes per year 2006 through 2008. It looks like you have always moved forward, doing new routes with a lot of variety, and climbing a bit harder all along. It looks like you could work on a lot harder stuff since your redpoint tally is so weak versus onsight. I’d say that letting the guiding thing go would be a freeing move. Continue to concentrate on your climbing. Get on some hard shit and drive yourself mental with that. There is plenty of time left to more than salvage this year and have a blast.


Gmburns2000


Aug 15, 2009, 5:41 AM
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knieveltech wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
If you've got something to say then put your name on it.

If that's the way you feel that's perfectly acceptable (and honestly it doesn't make much sense to allow anon comments anyway, you're basically begging for spam and other bullshit), however you need to reconfigure your site to disable anon commenting immediately. Otherwise you can't (with any kind of credibility) say you're deleting unsigned comments and censorship has nothing to do with it.

Thanks for that reminder. I totally forgot about that. You're right, turning that option off is better than deleting them.

In reply to:
While you're in the midst of this massive shit throwing contest something you might want to consider: there are several pro bloggers that make rent off "you're a fucking gumby" style hatemail. A large reader base of folks who absolutely hate your fucking guts can generate as much (or more) revenue for a blog than normal readers. It's because the ones that hate you will keep coming back to see what kind of response their flame got from the rest of the echo chamber. They'll also revisit your post and re-read it several times looking for new things to nitpick. That's ad revenue right there.

Not a bad idea, but I'm not a hater in real life (as you can probably see from my responses here). I wouldn't be good at that sort of thing.

Besides, even though your theory is absolutely correct (Jeremiah's last two posts have WAY outpaced any other post in terms of hits), my current balance for google ad clicks is still only $2.80. Laugh


Partner happiegrrrl


Aug 15, 2009, 6:51 AM
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woot! I'm waaaay ahead of you, GM. My adsense is $21.35! Mostly due to hits from Saudi Arabia when guys came across this image on PhotoBucket...


It's a sad, sad, thing when a guy's got to rely on THAT for a....a.... well, you know....fix. (Seriously, at least a few hits every week from people in MEast who clicked on that illustration, and 99%+ clicks to that illustration are from the MEast. Thank you porno-banning govnt! You're making me rich!) And you all think rc.com is stringent with their nudity image allowances....


Gmburns2000


Aug 15, 2009, 7:42 AM
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Laugh

I admit that during a recent trip to Aden I clicked on it just to see what I could get away with.


ukkonen


Aug 15, 2009, 11:06 AM
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I am glad someone finally brought this thread towards the dirty sex talk it so deserves.

To be honest I was willing to give 'burns a pass on the last thread.

But now I only have one question: why are you still here 'burns?

You all were correct. Run this guy off with our collective internet pitchfork.


milesenoell


Aug 15, 2009, 3:45 PM
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First...PTFTW

Second... I think I know where Burns is coming from (whether or not Burns himself does).

When you are taking on a big sets of new skills and concerns, you don't want to get all uptight just to make sure that the bases are covered, so, what works better is to play a little fast and loose (but not too much) while hanging out with those who are playing faster and looser. That way you have good chances of seeing someone nearby (who's methods you have seen) crashing and burning (or bumping and scraping), and you can tune your behavior appropriately. This was my approach through adolescence, and it served me well.


Edited to add: But, after you have seen that this behavior doesn't get the results that you want, it's time to move on and normalize to other peers who seem to be using a more successful approach.


(This post was edited by milesenoell on Aug 15, 2009, 3:47 PM)


milesenoell


Aug 15, 2009, 4:37 PM
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Wow. I was working form the quoted bits before but actually reading the whole blog entry was rather illuminating. How very...adolescent. I think what hit me most was how feelings and attitudes that I have felt, and can sympathize with, were taken at face value as deep and meaningful reflections on reality, rather than taken as lessons about where to direct attention to growth and learning. It's like listening to a freshman try to lecture professors, and acting out in exaggerated manner the very acts and feelings that will be corrected with further education.

This was my response there:
This is like an embarrassing diary. WAY too much melodrama, WAY to much self-pity, and this "I get no respect" tone is hilarious considering the behavior that you acknowledge prompted the chiding, AND the response that you had to it. As a statement about how dangerous an inexperienced guide is (and especially how blind and defensive they can be to their own shortcomings)it is articulate. This is actually a pretty good account of why one should be very selective in hiring a guide. Some guides are still not mature enough to be doing this kind of work to the level of competence that a client should be able to expect. I can only imagine how he would respond to a complicated emergency.


sungam


Aug 16, 2009, 11:12 AM
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lena_chita wrote:
I can remember two incidents of being lost now, but Funk Rock is the only one that really stands out in my mind. That was epic! Your sunglasses are still there somewhere, poluting the environment. Or was it Diego's sunglasses? I forgot.
Fuck - does ANYONE onsight the funkrock approach?
Maybe yore sunglasses are bro'in out with my goggle-things(wuz a joke) and my water bottle.


sungam


Aug 16, 2009, 11:18 AM
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marc801 wrote:
Weren't you and Jermy the two gumbies that spent 3 days doing a 3 pitch easy aid choss tower in Moab?
Heh, I wuz there too.
We actually only took two days. I have to admit for him that Greg was sllllloooooowwwwwww on day 1 climbing the manked-out bolt ladder, but as he said he had the twisted ankle and it was his first time aid climbing. It was also just one of those days where you could lean back against a rock and look at the view and not notice a couple hours slipping by.
The second day we climbing at a more realistic speed and summited fairly rapidly.

One thing a few people are missing - Greg isn't really a strong climber. He doesn't pretend to be, doesn't say he is, and definitely doesn't act like he is (you know, like I do Tongue).
He has climbed a fair amount and knows what he's about, and he certainly luuuuuuuvvvvvvzzzzzzzzz to make his blog posts dramatic (such is his style) but he's a sound lad.

I don't get why J-dude is getting all emo on us, though. Next thing we know he'll be wearing sweatbands.
But if it really comes to that - down bro, not across.


markc


Aug 17, 2009, 8:01 AM
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Re: [socalclimber] A Guide's Life [In reply to]
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socalclimber wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
BTW - if there are any guides out there who would like to contribute, please let me know. We're looking for different perspectives.

You've gotta be fucking kidding me....

My first thought upon reading that was, "What established guide in her right mind would want to be even loosely associated with Jeremiah?" There's a major risk there, without any obvious benefit.


socalclimber


Aug 17, 2009, 8:18 AM
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Re: [markc] A Guide's Life [In reply to]
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markc wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
BTW - if there are any guides out there who would like to contribute, please let me know. We're looking for different perspectives.

You've gotta be fucking kidding me....

My first thought upon reading that was, "What established guide in her right mind would want to be even loosely associated with Jeremiah?" There's a major risk there, without any obvious benefit.

This is so true. There are so many things wrong with this at so many levels, it's hard to even begin to lay them all out.

The liability issues alone are huge.

A quick story to illustrate how pirate guiding can cause grief to others who do it legitamitly.

This happened in Josh.

A few years back a couple of folks decided to take on a couple of very high paying group gigs themselves. No names will be disclosed. At the same time, a new seasonal ranger came to work here. He caught wind of this, and began to run around the park and start looking for guided classes, then pull the guide out in front their clients and run them through the ringer about who they were working for etc. This does not look good to the client.

As a general rule the rangers out here are all in all decent people. So this is really not a ranger issue in as much as it is a clear example of what problems pirate guides can cause the legit schools.

Fortunately this one ranger moved on and things calmed down. The legit schools have to jump through a zillion hoops just to get their permits. Then they usualy have to submit "Impact" reports to the land managers, sometimes on a daily basis. It depends on the policy of the park/area.

Morons like this Jeremiah character make land managers nervous. One of the things guide school owners have to do is make sure the park has no liability with regards to their permitted activities. This involves the inusurance they have carry as well. It's a tangled web.

This guys is an idiot. Period.


(This post was edited by socalclimber on Aug 17, 2009, 8:19 AM)


jt512


Aug 17, 2009, 8:30 AM
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Re: [milesenoell] A Guide's Life [In reply to]
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milesenoell wrote:
I can only imagine how he would respond to a complicated emergency.

I'm sure he'll tell us.

Jay


bobbj22


Aug 17, 2009, 8:42 AM
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Re: [jt512] A Guide's Life [In reply to]
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In reply to:
I'm sure he'll tell us.

Along with every other uninteresting event that is to come, in full detail.
Next week is grocery shopping.

I used to write about my conquests too.
Then I realized no one gives a shit, so should you.


marc801


Aug 17, 2009, 9:27 AM
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Re: [sungam] A Guide's Life [In reply to]
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sungam wrote:
One thing a few people are missing - Greg isn't really a strong climber. He doesn't pretend to be, doesn't say he is, and definitely doesn't act like he is (you know, like I do Tongue).
He has climbed a fair amount and knows what he's about, and he certainly luuuuuuuvvvvvvzzzzzzzzz to make his blog posts dramatic (such is his style) but he's a sound lad.
Seems that most of the ire is directed at incompetent Germy, not Greg so much. Greg is catching shit primarily because:
* he writes up super-gumby incidents as deep, overly dramatic mountain climbing epics
* he tries to come off as being a lot more knowledgeable than he is (again, based on his writing style)
* he gave Germy a platform for his pompous mendacity and promotes his drivel
* he's defended the indefensible Germy


sungam wrote:
I don't get why J-dude is getting all emo on us, though.
Maybe because he, like a few others, recognizes that Germy's attitude and approach has the distinct possibility of getting someone injured or killed.


Partner cracklover


Aug 17, 2009, 10:18 AM
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Re: [Gmburns2000] A Guide's Life [In reply to]
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
The second day was entirely my fault. I was still suffering the lingering effects of an ankle sprain and this was my first time aiding anything, ever. Yeah it was a bolt ladder, but I was freaked by the quarter-inchers with wingnuts and I hadn't climbed at all in about three months (i.e. - I was slow due to a bum ankle, lack of aiding experience, and a complete lack of exercise the past few months).

Desert towers, even short ones, are no joke. This is why I so strongly suggested that you spend some time in the Boston area really practicing your systems in advance of your trip. Instead, it seems you soaked up lots of precious vacation time to learn the fundamentals of aiding, and getting the first few failures out of the way. Basically, you set yourself up for failure.

And I'm afraid you may have been setting yourself up for failure, too, by trying to lead so much of Moby Grape. Jen is a stronger climber than you, especially when it comes to crack climbing. Cannon climbs do require some proficiency in jamming, both hands and feet. Only if you're climbing waaay below your limit will you be able to avoid them. I believe that when I did the triangular roof, I basically had a bomb-proof hand and foot jam after pulling through the roof. For someone so reticent to learn to crack climb, so willing to try every move outside of the crack to avoid jamming in it, falling off the slab atop the triangular roof is, sadly, almost predictable.

Just the same, I have no problem with you finding your own way, however tortuous it may seem from my perspective. No doubt, many would find some elements in the path I've taken through life entirely ridiculous and predictable. But then, I try my hardest to learn from my mistakes. I'm sure you do too. And perhaps for you, blogging is part of the process of learning? Dunno.

GO


Partner cracklover


Aug 17, 2009, 10:23 AM
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Re: [jakedatc] A Guide's Life [In reply to]
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jakedatc wrote:
Yea... i liked this bit..

"We both had some trouble at the top." - re: 5.7

"I thought it would be an easy warm up to get started on because it looked that way from the bottom." -re: 5.11b onsite "warm up"

sorry bud.. no one that onsites .11's struggles on 5.7.... anywhere. ever.

I regularly onsight 5.11 sport as a warmup. I recently backed off a poorly protected 5.7 traverse. And it's not just that I was having a bad day. It was a traverse, I'm not as good at traverses. I simply could not unlock the sequence, and a fall would have been ankle shattering *if* all the gear had held.

So that was more than even struggling - that was backing down with my tail between my legs. Yup, on a 5.7.

GO


kriso9tails


Aug 17, 2009, 10:31 AM
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Re: [bobbj22] A Guide's Life [In reply to]
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bobbj22 wrote:
I used to write about my conquests too.
Then I realized no one gives a shit, so should you.

Well, a writer with an iota of talent and even a touch of creativity could probably make something interesting to read out of that material... if forced to do so at gunpoint. Perhaps it could be a comedy. People make the mistake that something has to be epic to be interesting, but sometimes it's the mundane details presented in a new light that grabs our attention.

I'm sure if we had a short story contest on a 'Gumby's Life', some of the users here could give you something pretty decent. We'd avoid awarding a winner by declaring every participant a loser by default.


k.l.k


Aug 17, 2009, 10:33 AM
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Re: [cracklover] A Guide's Life [In reply to]
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cracklover wrote:
But then, I try my hardest to learn from my mistakes. I'm sure you do too.

Actually, he doesn't. This thread-- after the BOTR debacle--is evidence that there's little to no hope for improvement.

His determination to learn nothing from mistakes is one of the more depressing aspects of this entire debacle. What makes it worse is that he's not an outlier. Each day I see more folks who are truly convinced, that their opinion on absolutely any topic is at least as good as anyone else's. That sort of hubris is annoying when it comes to topics like writing. But it's genuinely dangerous in the mountains.


Gmburns2000


Aug 17, 2009, 10:43 AM
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Re: [cracklover] A Guide's Life [In reply to]
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cracklover wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
The second day was entirely my fault. I was still suffering the lingering effects of an ankle sprain and this was my first time aiding anything, ever. Yeah it was a bolt ladder, but I was freaked by the quarter-inchers with wingnuts and I hadn't climbed at all in about three months (i.e. - I was slow due to a bum ankle, lack of aiding experience, and a complete lack of exercise the past few months).

Desert towers, even short ones, are no joke. This is why I so strongly suggested that you spend some time in the Boston area really practicing your systems in advance of your trip. Instead, it seems you soaked up lots of precious vacation time to learn the fundamentals of aiding, and getting the first few failures out of the way. Basically, you set yourself up for failure.

I didn't have the opportunity to prepare in Boston before I left. For one, the trip started the last week of March and; two, the trip started right at the outer limits of when my ankle was starting to heal. I think I climbed once in the gym three days before I flew out just to test it, and I wouldn't have been there for more than an hour or so. I was fully prepared to be a belay slave and be slow all vacation. The vacation was a success, even if the climbing wasn't as great as I would have liked it to be.

In reply to:
And I'm afraid you may have been setting yourself up for failure, too, by trying to lead so much of Moby Grape. Jen is a stronger climber than you, especially when it comes to crack climbing. Cannon climbs do require some proficiency in jamming, both hands and feet. Only if you're climbing waaay below your limit will you be able to avoid them. I believe that when I did the triangular roof, I basically had a bomb-proof hand and foot jam after pulling through the roof. For someone so reticent to learn to crack climb, so willing to try every move outside of the crack to avoid jamming in it, falling off the slab atop the triangular roof is, sadly, almost predictable.

Yeah, well, I know that now. Still, I was very close to gaining that ledge that is up to the right (as in, about an inch away, and I had already felt it out before, so I knew what I was going to). I don't doubt for an instant that if I was a better crack climber I would have found the roof easier, but I also don't think one has to foot jam because of how close I was with only one hand jam and two smearing feet.

Still, my strategy will certainly have to change next time.

In reply to:
Just the same, I have no problem with you finding your own way, however tortuous it may seem from my perspective. No doubt, many would find some elements in the path I've taken through life entirely ridiculous and predictable. But then, I try my hardest to learn from my mistakes. I'm sure you do too. And perhaps for you, blogging is part of the process of learning? Dunno.

GO

To each his own. There have been much greater climbers who have made bigger mistakes than me. I certainly try to learn from my mistakes, but I think that learning part is generally pretty personal for me. Sure, I talk about it on the blog (and you're right, writing does help me to think things through). But by personal I mean that as "I have to make this decision and I have to live with it." I can certainly live with all of the days I've had on Cannon and can live with going back up again this fall (if the ankle heals. It's not nearly as bad a sprain as the one I had this winter, but I still feel it - hopefully I'll be better when I go climbing again in two weeks).


marc801


Aug 17, 2009, 10:53 AM
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Re: [Gmburns2000] A Guide's Life [In reply to]
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
cracklover wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
The second day was entirely my fault. I was still suffering the lingering effects of an ankle sprain and this was my first time aiding anything, ever. Yeah it was a bolt ladder, but I was freaked by the quarter-inchers with wingnuts and I hadn't climbed at all in about three months (i.e. - I was slow due to a bum ankle, lack of aiding experience, and a complete lack of exercise the past few months).

Desert towers, even short ones, are no joke. This is why I so strongly suggested that you spend some time in the Boston area really practicing your systems in advance of your trip. Instead, it seems you soaked up lots of precious vacation time to learn the fundamentals of aiding, and getting the first few failures out of the way. Basically, you set yourself up for failure.

I didn't have the opportunity to prepare in Boston before I left. For one, the trip started the last week of March and; two, the trip started right at the outer limits of when my ankle was starting to heal. I think I climbed once in the gym three days before I flew out just to test it, and I wouldn't have been there for more than an hour or so. I was fully prepared to be a belay slave and be slow all vacation. The vacation was a success, even if the climbing wasn't as great as I would have liked it to be.

In reply to:
And I'm afraid you may have been setting yourself up for failure, too, by trying to lead so much of Moby Grape. Jen is a stronger climber than you, especially when it comes to crack climbing. Cannon climbs do require some proficiency in jamming, both hands and feet. Only if you're climbing waaay below your limit will you be able to avoid them. I believe that when I did the triangular roof, I basically had a bomb-proof hand and foot jam after pulling through the roof. For someone so reticent to learn to crack climb, so willing to try every move outside of the crack to avoid jamming in it, falling off the slab atop the triangular roof is, sadly, almost predictable.

Yeah, well, I know that now. Still, I was very close to gaining that ledge that is up to the right (as in, about an inch away, and I had already felt it out before, so I knew what I was going to). I don't doubt for an instant that if I was a better crack climber I would have found the roof easier, but I also don't think one has to foot jam because of how close I was with only one hand jam and two smearing feet.

Still, my strategy will certainly have to change next time.

In reply to:
Just the same, I have no problem with you finding your own way, however tortuous it may seem from my perspective. No doubt, many would find some elements in the path I've taken through life entirely ridiculous and predictable. But then, I try my hardest to learn from my mistakes. I'm sure you do too. And perhaps for you, blogging is part of the process of learning? Dunno.

GO

To each his own. There have been much greater climbers who have made bigger mistakes than me. I certainly try to learn from my mistakes, but I think that learning part is generally pretty personal for me. Sure, I talk about it on the blog (and you're right, writing does help me to think things through). But by personal I mean that as "I have to make this decision and I have to live with it." I can certainly live with all of the days I've had on Cannon and can live with going back up again this fall (if the ankle heals. It's not nearly as bad a sprain as the one I had this winter, but I still feel it - hopefully I'll be better when I go climbing again in two weeks).
This whole defensiveness thing you have going on is getting tedious. Maybe you should reread your sig.


markc


Aug 17, 2009, 10:53 AM
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Re: [k.l.k] A Guide's Life [In reply to]
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k.l.k wrote:
cracklover wrote:
But then, I try my hardest to learn from my mistakes. I'm sure you do too.

Actually, he doesn't. This thread-- after the BOTR debacle--is evidence that there's little to no hope for improvement.

His determination to learn nothing from mistakes is one of the more depressing aspects of this entire debacle. What makes it worse is that he's not an outlier. Each day I see more folks who are truly convinced, that their opinion on absolutely any topic is at least as good as anyone else's. That sort of hubris is annoying when it comes to topics like writing. But it's genuinely dangerous in the mountains.

Cracklover was commenting on Greg's trips, not on Jeremiah. There is some confusion due to Greg and Jeremiah sharing a blog and Greg announcing Jeremiah's blog updates.


Gmburns2000


Aug 17, 2009, 10:58 AM
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Re: [marc801] A Guide's Life [In reply to]
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marc801 wrote:
This whole defensiveness thing you have going on is getting tedious. Maybe you should reread your sig.

well played.Laugh


k.l.k


Aug 17, 2009, 11:10 AM
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Re: [markc] A Guide's Life [In reply to]
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markc wrote:
k.l.k wrote:
cracklover wrote:
But then, I try my hardest to learn from my mistakes. I'm sure you do too.

Actually, he doesn't. This thread-- after the BOTR debacle--is evidence that there's little to no hope for improvement.

His determination to learn nothing from mistakes is one of the more depressing aspects of this entire debacle. What makes it worse is that he's not an outlier. Each day I see more folks who are truly convinced, that their opinion on absolutely any topic is at least as good as anyone else's. That sort of hubris is annoying when it comes to topics like writing. But it's genuinely dangerous in the mountains.

Cracklover was commenting on Greg's trips, not on Jeremiah. There is some confusion due to Greg and Jeremiah sharing a blog and Greg announcing Jeremiah's blog updates.

Yes, I know. I was also commenting on Greg's posting here, both in the BOTR thread and this one. He's repeatedly made errors of fact and judgment, condescended to the few folks who gently offered helpful or corrective suggestions, slagged off one of the best-respected climbing guides on the West Coast, and finally argued that incompetent, lazy and ignorant are good things to be, and that anyone who believes otherwise is a dangerous elitist who wants everyone else to eat from spoons. Whatever that means.

He may well be nice enough in person. But his online persona in these threads has been hopeless. And as I noted, if he were an outlier, it would be easy to just write off the entire deal. But he's not.

Sites like this one-- and blogs like the one under discussion -- have become the public face of our sport. God help us.


jt512


Aug 17, 2009, 11:15 AM
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Re: [markc] A Guide's Life [In reply to]
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markc wrote:
k.l.k wrote:
cracklover wrote:
But then, I try my hardest to learn from my mistakes. I'm sure you do too.

Actually, he doesn't. This thread-- after the BOTR debacle--is evidence that there's little to no hope for improvement.

His determination to learn nothing from mistakes is one of the more depressing aspects of this entire debacle. What makes it worse is that he's not an outlier. Each day I see more folks who are truly convinced, that their opinion on absolutely any topic is at least as good as anyone else's. That sort of hubris is annoying when it comes to topics like writing. But it's genuinely dangerous in the mountains.

Cracklover was commenting on Greg's trips, not on Jeremiah. There is some confusion due to Greg and Jeremiah sharing a blog and Greg announcing Jeremiah's blog updates.

There is some confusion due to Greg and Jeremiah sharing the same blog; the same gumby tendencies; the same inordinate defensiveness; the same bloated sense of importance; the same incapacity to learn from criticism; and the same verbose, melodramatic writing style.

Jay


markc


Aug 17, 2009, 11:24 AM
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k.l.k wrote:
markc wrote:
k.l.k wrote:
cracklover wrote:
But then, I try my hardest to learn from my mistakes. I'm sure you do too.

Actually, he doesn't. This thread-- after the BOTR debacle--is evidence that there's little to no hope for improvement.

His determination to learn nothing from mistakes is one of the more depressing aspects of this entire debacle. What makes it worse is that he's not an outlier. Each day I see more folks who are truly convinced, that their opinion on absolutely any topic is at least as good as anyone else's. That sort of hubris is annoying when it comes to topics like writing. But it's genuinely dangerous in the mountains.

Cracklover was commenting on Greg's trips, not on Jeremiah. There is some confusion due to Greg and Jeremiah sharing a blog and Greg announcing Jeremiah's blog updates.

Yes, I know. I was also commenting on Greg's posting here, both in the BOTR thread and this one. He's repeatedly made errors of fact and judgment, condescended to the few folks who gently offered helpful or corrective suggestions, slagged off one of the best-respected climbing guides on the West Coast, and finally argued that incompetent, lazy and ignorant are good things to be, and that anyone who believes otherwise is a dangerous elitist who wants everyone else to eat from spoons. Whatever that means.

He may well be nice enough in person. But his online persona in these threads has been hopeless. And as I noted, if he were an outlier, it would be easy to just write off the entire deal. But he's not.

Sites like this one-- and blogs like the one under discussion -- have become the public face of our sport. God help us.

I'm sorry for my misinterpretation. Of the two, I've found Greg to admit fault more quickly, and to demonstrate some humility.


dingus


Aug 17, 2009, 11:32 AM
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A guide who won't post her creds is pretty much hiding a light resume. Or a client death. Or both.

DMT


dingus


Aug 17, 2009, 11:36 AM
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jt512 wrote:
There is some confusion due to Greg and Jeremiah sharing the same blog; the same gumby tendencies; the same inordinate defensiveness; the same bloated sense of importance; the same incapacity to learn from criticism; and the same verbose, melodramatic writing style.

Jay

I think the reigning champ Lord of Trolls Major Sabet has some serious schizo competition from the dymanic 'duo' of GymBurns and his alter ego HeMenEz.

DMT


marc801


Aug 17, 2009, 12:14 PM
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k.l.k wrote:
Sites like this one-- and blogs like the one under discussion -- have become the public face of our sport. God help us.
Perhaps even more disconcerting, Gumbyurns now has a sponsored blog on climbing.com.


jt512


Aug 17, 2009, 12:23 PM
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k.l.k wrote:
Sites like this one-- and blogs like the one under discussion -- have become the public face of our sport. God help us.

God helps those who help themselves. Every time you browse to a site with javascript enabled in your browser you generate ad revenue for the site (yes, even if you don't click on the ads). Use the Firefox add-on YesScript to turn turn off javascript on sites that you do not want to financially support. The Brotherhood of the Dopes is not getting any ad revenue from me.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Aug 17, 2009, 1:20 PM)


sethg


Aug 17, 2009, 1:10 PM
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Re: [Gmburns2000] A Guide's Life [In reply to]
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Greg & Jeremiah, I sypathize with what you're trying to do. I read your blog, and I find Greg's posts about struggling with Gunks moderates to be entertaining. I do the same sort of climbing, so I can relate. And I admire Jeremiah for trying to be honest and confessing weaknesses in his climbing and guiding.

So I'm trying to present this as a friend: take down that post about the guiding life. It might get Jeremiah fired. No employer is going to want a guide who writes on the internet about courting danger. Furthermore, if you ever have an accident while guiding and someone decides to sue, you will rue the day you posted that stuff.

That is all.


(This post was edited by sethg on Aug 17, 2009, 1:11 PM)


kriso9tails


Aug 17, 2009, 1:15 PM
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sethg wrote:
It might get Jeremiah fired.

Wouldn't he have to get hired first?

In reply to:
No employer is going to want a guide who writes on the internet about courting danger.

Oh... well, nothing to worry about then.


edge


Aug 17, 2009, 3:41 PM
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And after 30+ years of subscribing to Climbing, I have terminated my subscription. Climbing used to speak for the masses, not the near misses.

Jeremiah, for what gym do you work/guide? This is a fair question considering your public stance. So, who is it that has hired you?


blueeyedclimber


Aug 17, 2009, 4:45 PM
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Can't Post

I don't know if anyone else has noticed, but Jeremiah has not posted since page 2. Greg, I know you want to save your blog, but it might be a good idea for you, too, to let it die.

Just sayin'

Josh


jt512


Aug 17, 2009, 4:54 PM
Post #154 of 193 (1569 views)
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Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21890

Re: [blueeyedclimber] A Guide's Life [In reply to]
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Can't Post

blueeyedclimber wrote:
I don't know if anyone else has noticed, but Jeremiah has not posted since page 2.

Maybe he's lost.

Jay