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milesenoell


Aug 15, 2009, 3:45 PM
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Re: [Gmburns2000] A Guide's Life [In reply to]
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First...PTFTW

Second... I think I know where Burns is coming from (whether or not Burns himself does).

When you are taking on a big sets of new skills and concerns, you don't want to get all uptight just to make sure that the bases are covered, so, what works better is to play a little fast and loose (but not too much) while hanging out with those who are playing faster and looser. That way you have good chances of seeing someone nearby (who's methods you have seen) crashing and burning (or bumping and scraping), and you can tune your behavior appropriately. This was my approach through adolescence, and it served me well.


Edited to add: But, after you have seen that this behavior doesn't get the results that you want, it's time to move on and normalize to other peers who seem to be using a more successful approach.


(This post was edited by milesenoell on Aug 15, 2009, 3:47 PM)


milesenoell


Aug 15, 2009, 4:37 PM
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Re: [milesenoell] A Guide's Life [In reply to]
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Wow. I was working form the quoted bits before but actually reading the whole blog entry was rather illuminating. How very...adolescent. I think what hit me most was how feelings and attitudes that I have felt, and can sympathize with, were taken at face value as deep and meaningful reflections on reality, rather than taken as lessons about where to direct attention to growth and learning. It's like listening to a freshman try to lecture professors, and acting out in exaggerated manner the very acts and feelings that will be corrected with further education.

This was my response there:
This is like an embarrassing diary. WAY too much melodrama, WAY to much self-pity, and this "I get no respect" tone is hilarious considering the behavior that you acknowledge prompted the chiding, AND the response that you had to it. As a statement about how dangerous an inexperienced guide is (and especially how blind and defensive they can be to their own shortcomings)it is articulate. This is actually a pretty good account of why one should be very selective in hiring a guide. Some guides are still not mature enough to be doing this kind of work to the level of competence that a client should be able to expect. I can only imagine how he would respond to a complicated emergency.


sungam


Aug 16, 2009, 11:12 AM
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Re: [lena_chita] A Guide's Life [In reply to]
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lena_chita wrote:
I can remember two incidents of being lost now, but Funk Rock is the only one that really stands out in my mind. That was epic! Your sunglasses are still there somewhere, poluting the environment. Or was it Diego's sunglasses? I forgot.
Fuck - does ANYONE onsight the funkrock approach?
Maybe yore sunglasses are bro'in out with my goggle-things(wuz a joke) and my water bottle.


sungam


Aug 16, 2009, 11:18 AM
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Re: [marc801] A Guide's Life [In reply to]
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marc801 wrote:
Weren't you and Jermy the two gumbies that spent 3 days doing a 3 pitch easy aid choss tower in Moab?
Heh, I wuz there too.
We actually only took two days. I have to admit for him that Greg was sllllloooooowwwwwww on day 1 climbing the manked-out bolt ladder, but as he said he had the twisted ankle and it was his first time aid climbing. It was also just one of those days where you could lean back against a rock and look at the view and not notice a couple hours slipping by.
The second day we climbing at a more realistic speed and summited fairly rapidly.

One thing a few people are missing - Greg isn't really a strong climber. He doesn't pretend to be, doesn't say he is, and definitely doesn't act like he is (you know, like I do Tongue).
He has climbed a fair amount and knows what he's about, and he certainly luuuuuuuvvvvvvzzzzzzzzz to make his blog posts dramatic (such is his style) but he's a sound lad.

I don't get why J-dude is getting all emo on us, though. Next thing we know he'll be wearing sweatbands.
But if it really comes to that - down bro, not across.


markc


Aug 17, 2009, 8:01 AM
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Re: [socalclimber] A Guide's Life [In reply to]
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socalclimber wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
BTW - if there are any guides out there who would like to contribute, please let me know. We're looking for different perspectives.

You've gotta be fucking kidding me....

My first thought upon reading that was, "What established guide in her right mind would want to be even loosely associated with Jeremiah?" There's a major risk there, without any obvious benefit.


socalclimber


Aug 17, 2009, 8:18 AM
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Re: [markc] A Guide's Life [In reply to]
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markc wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
BTW - if there are any guides out there who would like to contribute, please let me know. We're looking for different perspectives.

You've gotta be fucking kidding me....

My first thought upon reading that was, "What established guide in her right mind would want to be even loosely associated with Jeremiah?" There's a major risk there, without any obvious benefit.

This is so true. There are so many things wrong with this at so many levels, it's hard to even begin to lay them all out.

The liability issues alone are huge.

A quick story to illustrate how pirate guiding can cause grief to others who do it legitamitly.

This happened in Josh.

A few years back a couple of folks decided to take on a couple of very high paying group gigs themselves. No names will be disclosed. At the same time, a new seasonal ranger came to work here. He caught wind of this, and began to run around the park and start looking for guided classes, then pull the guide out in front their clients and run them through the ringer about who they were working for etc. This does not look good to the client.

As a general rule the rangers out here are all in all decent people. So this is really not a ranger issue in as much as it is a clear example of what problems pirate guides can cause the legit schools.

Fortunately this one ranger moved on and things calmed down. The legit schools have to jump through a zillion hoops just to get their permits. Then they usualy have to submit "Impact" reports to the land managers, sometimes on a daily basis. It depends on the policy of the park/area.

Morons like this Jeremiah character make land managers nervous. One of the things guide school owners have to do is make sure the park has no liability with regards to their permitted activities. This involves the inusurance they have carry as well. It's a tangled web.

This guys is an idiot. Period.


(This post was edited by socalclimber on Aug 17, 2009, 8:19 AM)


jt512


Aug 17, 2009, 8:30 AM
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Re: [milesenoell] A Guide's Life [In reply to]
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milesenoell wrote:
I can only imagine how he would respond to a complicated emergency.

I'm sure he'll tell us.

Jay


bobbj22


Aug 17, 2009, 8:42 AM
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Re: [jt512] A Guide's Life [In reply to]
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In reply to:
I'm sure he'll tell us.

Along with every other uninteresting event that is to come, in full detail.
Next week is grocery shopping.

I used to write about my conquests too.
Then I realized no one gives a shit, so should you.


marc801


Aug 17, 2009, 9:27 AM
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Re: [sungam] A Guide's Life [In reply to]
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sungam wrote:
One thing a few people are missing - Greg isn't really a strong climber. He doesn't pretend to be, doesn't say he is, and definitely doesn't act like he is (you know, like I do Tongue).
He has climbed a fair amount and knows what he's about, and he certainly luuuuuuuvvvvvvzzzzzzzzz to make his blog posts dramatic (such is his style) but he's a sound lad.
Seems that most of the ire is directed at incompetent Germy, not Greg so much. Greg is catching shit primarily because:
* he writes up super-gumby incidents as deep, overly dramatic mountain climbing epics
* he tries to come off as being a lot more knowledgeable than he is (again, based on his writing style)
* he gave Germy a platform for his pompous mendacity and promotes his drivel
* he's defended the indefensible Germy


sungam wrote:
I don't get why J-dude is getting all emo on us, though.
Maybe because he, like a few others, recognizes that Germy's attitude and approach has the distinct possibility of getting someone injured or killed.


Partner cracklover


Aug 17, 2009, 10:18 AM
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Re: [Gmburns2000] A Guide's Life [In reply to]
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
The second day was entirely my fault. I was still suffering the lingering effects of an ankle sprain and this was my first time aiding anything, ever. Yeah it was a bolt ladder, but I was freaked by the quarter-inchers with wingnuts and I hadn't climbed at all in about three months (i.e. - I was slow due to a bum ankle, lack of aiding experience, and a complete lack of exercise the past few months).

Desert towers, even short ones, are no joke. This is why I so strongly suggested that you spend some time in the Boston area really practicing your systems in advance of your trip. Instead, it seems you soaked up lots of precious vacation time to learn the fundamentals of aiding, and getting the first few failures out of the way. Basically, you set yourself up for failure.

And I'm afraid you may have been setting yourself up for failure, too, by trying to lead so much of Moby Grape. Jen is a stronger climber than you, especially when it comes to crack climbing. Cannon climbs do require some proficiency in jamming, both hands and feet. Only if you're climbing waaay below your limit will you be able to avoid them. I believe that when I did the triangular roof, I basically had a bomb-proof hand and foot jam after pulling through the roof. For someone so reticent to learn to crack climb, so willing to try every move outside of the crack to avoid jamming in it, falling off the slab atop the triangular roof is, sadly, almost predictable.

Just the same, I have no problem with you finding your own way, however tortuous it may seem from my perspective. No doubt, many would find some elements in the path I've taken through life entirely ridiculous and predictable. But then, I try my hardest to learn from my mistakes. I'm sure you do too. And perhaps for you, blogging is part of the process of learning? Dunno.

GO


Partner cracklover


Aug 17, 2009, 10:23 AM
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Re: [jakedatc] A Guide's Life [In reply to]
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jakedatc wrote:
Yea... i liked this bit..

"We both had some trouble at the top." - re: 5.7

"I thought it would be an easy warm up to get started on because it looked that way from the bottom." -re: 5.11b onsite "warm up"

sorry bud.. no one that onsites .11's struggles on 5.7.... anywhere. ever.

I regularly onsight 5.11 sport as a warmup. I recently backed off a poorly protected 5.7 traverse. And it's not just that I was having a bad day. It was a traverse, I'm not as good at traverses. I simply could not unlock the sequence, and a fall would have been ankle shattering *if* all the gear had held.

So that was more than even struggling - that was backing down with my tail between my legs. Yup, on a 5.7.

GO


kriso9tails


Aug 17, 2009, 10:31 AM
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Re: [bobbj22] A Guide's Life [In reply to]
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bobbj22 wrote:
I used to write about my conquests too.
Then I realized no one gives a shit, so should you.

Well, a writer with an iota of talent and even a touch of creativity could probably make something interesting to read out of that material... if forced to do so at gunpoint. Perhaps it could be a comedy. People make the mistake that something has to be epic to be interesting, but sometimes it's the mundane details presented in a new light that grabs our attention.

I'm sure if we had a short story contest on a 'Gumby's Life', some of the users here could give you something pretty decent. We'd avoid awarding a winner by declaring every participant a loser by default.


k.l.k


Aug 17, 2009, 10:33 AM
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Re: [cracklover] A Guide's Life [In reply to]
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cracklover wrote:
But then, I try my hardest to learn from my mistakes. I'm sure you do too.

Actually, he doesn't. This thread-- after the BOTR debacle--is evidence that there's little to no hope for improvement.

His determination to learn nothing from mistakes is one of the more depressing aspects of this entire debacle. What makes it worse is that he's not an outlier. Each day I see more folks who are truly convinced, that their opinion on absolutely any topic is at least as good as anyone else's. That sort of hubris is annoying when it comes to topics like writing. But it's genuinely dangerous in the mountains.


Gmburns2000


Aug 17, 2009, 10:43 AM
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Re: [cracklover] A Guide's Life [In reply to]
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cracklover wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
The second day was entirely my fault. I was still suffering the lingering effects of an ankle sprain and this was my first time aiding anything, ever. Yeah it was a bolt ladder, but I was freaked by the quarter-inchers with wingnuts and I hadn't climbed at all in about three months (i.e. - I was slow due to a bum ankle, lack of aiding experience, and a complete lack of exercise the past few months).

Desert towers, even short ones, are no joke. This is why I so strongly suggested that you spend some time in the Boston area really practicing your systems in advance of your trip. Instead, it seems you soaked up lots of precious vacation time to learn the fundamentals of aiding, and getting the first few failures out of the way. Basically, you set yourself up for failure.

I didn't have the opportunity to prepare in Boston before I left. For one, the trip started the last week of March and; two, the trip started right at the outer limits of when my ankle was starting to heal. I think I climbed once in the gym three days before I flew out just to test it, and I wouldn't have been there for more than an hour or so. I was fully prepared to be a belay slave and be slow all vacation. The vacation was a success, even if the climbing wasn't as great as I would have liked it to be.

In reply to:
And I'm afraid you may have been setting yourself up for failure, too, by trying to lead so much of Moby Grape. Jen is a stronger climber than you, especially when it comes to crack climbing. Cannon climbs do require some proficiency in jamming, both hands and feet. Only if you're climbing waaay below your limit will you be able to avoid them. I believe that when I did the triangular roof, I basically had a bomb-proof hand and foot jam after pulling through the roof. For someone so reticent to learn to crack climb, so willing to try every move outside of the crack to avoid jamming in it, falling off the slab atop the triangular roof is, sadly, almost predictable.

Yeah, well, I know that now. Still, I was very close to gaining that ledge that is up to the right (as in, about an inch away, and I had already felt it out before, so I knew what I was going to). I don't doubt for an instant that if I was a better crack climber I would have found the roof easier, but I also don't think one has to foot jam because of how close I was with only one hand jam and two smearing feet.

Still, my strategy will certainly have to change next time.

In reply to:
Just the same, I have no problem with you finding your own way, however tortuous it may seem from my perspective. No doubt, many would find some elements in the path I've taken through life entirely ridiculous and predictable. But then, I try my hardest to learn from my mistakes. I'm sure you do too. And perhaps for you, blogging is part of the process of learning? Dunno.

GO

To each his own. There have been much greater climbers who have made bigger mistakes than me. I certainly try to learn from my mistakes, but I think that learning part is generally pretty personal for me. Sure, I talk about it on the blog (and you're right, writing does help me to think things through). But by personal I mean that as "I have to make this decision and I have to live with it." I can certainly live with all of the days I've had on Cannon and can live with going back up again this fall (if the ankle heals. It's not nearly as bad a sprain as the one I had this winter, but I still feel it - hopefully I'll be better when I go climbing again in two weeks).


marc801


Aug 17, 2009, 10:53 AM
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Re: [Gmburns2000] A Guide's Life [In reply to]
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
cracklover wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
The second day was entirely my fault. I was still suffering the lingering effects of an ankle sprain and this was my first time aiding anything, ever. Yeah it was a bolt ladder, but I was freaked by the quarter-inchers with wingnuts and I hadn't climbed at all in about three months (i.e. - I was slow due to a bum ankle, lack of aiding experience, and a complete lack of exercise the past few months).

Desert towers, even short ones, are no joke. This is why I so strongly suggested that you spend some time in the Boston area really practicing your systems in advance of your trip. Instead, it seems you soaked up lots of precious vacation time to learn the fundamentals of aiding, and getting the first few failures out of the way. Basically, you set yourself up for failure.

I didn't have the opportunity to prepare in Boston before I left. For one, the trip started the last week of March and; two, the trip started right at the outer limits of when my ankle was starting to heal. I think I climbed once in the gym three days before I flew out just to test it, and I wouldn't have been there for more than an hour or so. I was fully prepared to be a belay slave and be slow all vacation. The vacation was a success, even if the climbing wasn't as great as I would have liked it to be.

In reply to:
And I'm afraid you may have been setting yourself up for failure, too, by trying to lead so much of Moby Grape. Jen is a stronger climber than you, especially when it comes to crack climbing. Cannon climbs do require some proficiency in jamming, both hands and feet. Only if you're climbing waaay below your limit will you be able to avoid them. I believe that when I did the triangular roof, I basically had a bomb-proof hand and foot jam after pulling through the roof. For someone so reticent to learn to crack climb, so willing to try every move outside of the crack to avoid jamming in it, falling off the slab atop the triangular roof is, sadly, almost predictable.

Yeah, well, I know that now. Still, I was very close to gaining that ledge that is up to the right (as in, about an inch away, and I had already felt it out before, so I knew what I was going to). I don't doubt for an instant that if I was a better crack climber I would have found the roof easier, but I also don't think one has to foot jam because of how close I was with only one hand jam and two smearing feet.

Still, my strategy will certainly have to change next time.

In reply to:
Just the same, I have no problem with you finding your own way, however tortuous it may seem from my perspective. No doubt, many would find some elements in the path I've taken through life entirely ridiculous and predictable. But then, I try my hardest to learn from my mistakes. I'm sure you do too. And perhaps for you, blogging is part of the process of learning? Dunno.

GO

To each his own. There have been much greater climbers who have made bigger mistakes than me. I certainly try to learn from my mistakes, but I think that learning part is generally pretty personal for me. Sure, I talk about it on the blog (and you're right, writing does help me to think things through). But by personal I mean that as "I have to make this decision and I have to live with it." I can certainly live with all of the days I've had on Cannon and can live with going back up again this fall (if the ankle heals. It's not nearly as bad a sprain as the one I had this winter, but I still feel it - hopefully I'll be better when I go climbing again in two weeks).
This whole defensiveness thing you have going on is getting tedious. Maybe you should reread your sig.


markc


Aug 17, 2009, 10:53 AM
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k.l.k wrote:
cracklover wrote:
But then, I try my hardest to learn from my mistakes. I'm sure you do too.

Actually, he doesn't. This thread-- after the BOTR debacle--is evidence that there's little to no hope for improvement.

His determination to learn nothing from mistakes is one of the more depressing aspects of this entire debacle. What makes it worse is that he's not an outlier. Each day I see more folks who are truly convinced, that their opinion on absolutely any topic is at least as good as anyone else's. That sort of hubris is annoying when it comes to topics like writing. But it's genuinely dangerous in the mountains.

Cracklover was commenting on Greg's trips, not on Jeremiah. There is some confusion due to Greg and Jeremiah sharing a blog and Greg announcing Jeremiah's blog updates.


Gmburns2000


Aug 17, 2009, 10:58 AM
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marc801 wrote:
This whole defensiveness thing you have going on is getting tedious. Maybe you should reread your sig.

well played.Laugh


k.l.k


Aug 17, 2009, 11:10 AM
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markc wrote:
k.l.k wrote:
cracklover wrote:
But then, I try my hardest to learn from my mistakes. I'm sure you do too.

Actually, he doesn't. This thread-- after the BOTR debacle--is evidence that there's little to no hope for improvement.

His determination to learn nothing from mistakes is one of the more depressing aspects of this entire debacle. What makes it worse is that he's not an outlier. Each day I see more folks who are truly convinced, that their opinion on absolutely any topic is at least as good as anyone else's. That sort of hubris is annoying when it comes to topics like writing. But it's genuinely dangerous in the mountains.

Cracklover was commenting on Greg's trips, not on Jeremiah. There is some confusion due to Greg and Jeremiah sharing a blog and Greg announcing Jeremiah's blog updates.

Yes, I know. I was also commenting on Greg's posting here, both in the BOTR thread and this one. He's repeatedly made errors of fact and judgment, condescended to the few folks who gently offered helpful or corrective suggestions, slagged off one of the best-respected climbing guides on the West Coast, and finally argued that incompetent, lazy and ignorant are good things to be, and that anyone who believes otherwise is a dangerous elitist who wants everyone else to eat from spoons. Whatever that means.

He may well be nice enough in person. But his online persona in these threads has been hopeless. And as I noted, if he were an outlier, it would be easy to just write off the entire deal. But he's not.

Sites like this one-- and blogs like the one under discussion -- have become the public face of our sport. God help us.


jt512


Aug 17, 2009, 11:15 AM
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markc wrote:
k.l.k wrote:
cracklover wrote:
But then, I try my hardest to learn from my mistakes. I'm sure you do too.

Actually, he doesn't. This thread-- after the BOTR debacle--is evidence that there's little to no hope for improvement.

His determination to learn nothing from mistakes is one of the more depressing aspects of this entire debacle. What makes it worse is that he's not an outlier. Each day I see more folks who are truly convinced, that their opinion on absolutely any topic is at least as good as anyone else's. That sort of hubris is annoying when it comes to topics like writing. But it's genuinely dangerous in the mountains.

Cracklover was commenting on Greg's trips, not on Jeremiah. There is some confusion due to Greg and Jeremiah sharing a blog and Greg announcing Jeremiah's blog updates.

There is some confusion due to Greg and Jeremiah sharing the same blog; the same gumby tendencies; the same inordinate defensiveness; the same bloated sense of importance; the same incapacity to learn from criticism; and the same verbose, melodramatic writing style.

Jay


markc


Aug 17, 2009, 11:24 AM
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k.l.k wrote:
markc wrote:
k.l.k wrote:
cracklover wrote:
But then, I try my hardest to learn from my mistakes. I'm sure you do too.

Actually, he doesn't. This thread-- after the BOTR debacle--is evidence that there's little to no hope for improvement.

His determination to learn nothing from mistakes is one of the more depressing aspects of this entire debacle. What makes it worse is that he's not an outlier. Each day I see more folks who are truly convinced, that their opinion on absolutely any topic is at least as good as anyone else's. That sort of hubris is annoying when it comes to topics like writing. But it's genuinely dangerous in the mountains.

Cracklover was commenting on Greg's trips, not on Jeremiah. There is some confusion due to Greg and Jeremiah sharing a blog and Greg announcing Jeremiah's blog updates.

Yes, I know. I was also commenting on Greg's posting here, both in the BOTR thread and this one. He's repeatedly made errors of fact and judgment, condescended to the few folks who gently offered helpful or corrective suggestions, slagged off one of the best-respected climbing guides on the West Coast, and finally argued that incompetent, lazy and ignorant are good things to be, and that anyone who believes otherwise is a dangerous elitist who wants everyone else to eat from spoons. Whatever that means.

He may well be nice enough in person. But his online persona in these threads has been hopeless. And as I noted, if he were an outlier, it would be easy to just write off the entire deal. But he's not.

Sites like this one-- and blogs like the one under discussion -- have become the public face of our sport. God help us.

I'm sorry for my misinterpretation. Of the two, I've found Greg to admit fault more quickly, and to demonstrate some humility.


dingus


Aug 17, 2009, 11:32 AM
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A guide who won't post her creds is pretty much hiding a light resume. Or a client death. Or both.

DMT


dingus


Aug 17, 2009, 11:36 AM
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Re: [jt512] A Guide's Life [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
There is some confusion due to Greg and Jeremiah sharing the same blog; the same gumby tendencies; the same inordinate defensiveness; the same bloated sense of importance; the same incapacity to learn from criticism; and the same verbose, melodramatic writing style.

Jay

I think the reigning champ Lord of Trolls Major Sabet has some serious schizo competition from the dymanic 'duo' of GymBurns and his alter ego HeMenEz.

DMT


marc801


Aug 17, 2009, 12:14 PM
Post #148 of 193 (1187 views)
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Posts: 2730

Re: [k.l.k] A Guide's Life [In reply to]
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k.l.k wrote:
Sites like this one-- and blogs like the one under discussion -- have become the public face of our sport. God help us.
Perhaps even more disconcerting, Gumbyurns now has a sponsored blog on climbing.com.


jt512


Aug 17, 2009, 12:23 PM
Post #149 of 193 (1180 views)
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Posts: 21890

Re: [k.l.k] A Guide's Life [In reply to]
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k.l.k wrote:
Sites like this one-- and blogs like the one under discussion -- have become the public face of our sport. God help us.

God helps those who help themselves. Every time you browse to a site with javascript enabled in your browser you generate ad revenue for the site (yes, even if you don't click on the ads). Use the Firefox add-on YesScript to turn turn off javascript on sites that you do not want to financially support. The Brotherhood of the Dopes is not getting any ad revenue from me.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Aug 17, 2009, 1:20 PM)


sethg


Aug 17, 2009, 1:10 PM
Post #150 of 193 (1134 views)
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Re: [Gmburns2000] A Guide's Life [In reply to]
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Greg & Jeremiah, I sypathize with what you're trying to do. I read your blog, and I find Greg's posts about struggling with Gunks moderates to be entertaining. I do the same sort of climbing, so I can relate. And I admire Jeremiah for trying to be honest and confessing weaknesses in his climbing and guiding.

So I'm trying to present this as a friend: take down that post about the guiding life. It might get Jeremiah fired. No employer is going to want a guide who writes on the internet about courting danger. Furthermore, if you ever have an accident while guiding and someone decides to sue, you will rue the day you posted that stuff.

That is all.


(This post was edited by sethg on Aug 17, 2009, 1:11 PM)

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