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Tactix23


Sep 14, 2009, 5:28 PM
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Anyone else lift weights here?
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I'm looking into getting back into the gym, I had stopped when I decided I wanted to climb frequently. I would like some opinions on creating a workout plan for days opposite climbing days.Cool

Now climbing is all pull motion from the shoulders and back primarily. So I would want to mainly focus on push in the gym correct?

I know chest is barely used as well as triceps so I know those need great focus as well as legs.

I rock climb Tuesday, Thursday, maybe Friday and maybe sunday. So I'm thinking Saturday and sunday should be off days for sure. I can always take a day off if I feel overworked. So that leaves me Monday, Wednesday and Friday (if I don't rock climb)

Any opinions? I'm thinking chest and tris monday, legs and shoulders (shoulder exercises will be done in a fashion that I am using little traps as possible) and friday maybe arms or something since I won't always be going.

I'm not looking to gain massive muscle or weight. Just looking to add on some lean meat.

Thanks!


(This post was edited by Tactix23 on Sep 14, 2009, 5:28 PM)


testpilot


Sep 14, 2009, 5:53 PM
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Re: [Tactix23] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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You may consider looking into Mountain Athlete or Crossfit (Crossfit.com; Mountainathlete.com) as an alternative to actual lifting weights. I do Crossfit and find that it is much better for me because it focuses more on functional strength rather than larger muscles (heavy). These programs will focus on core strength, balance and power - all of which are a huge help in climbing. In my very humble opinion lifting a barbell or working a nautilus machine will indeed make you stronger but its not that functional strength you need for climbing. If you still want to get into a gym then bodybuilding.com is a pretty good, knowledgeable resource.

Good Luck


Tactix23


Sep 14, 2009, 6:02 PM
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Re: [testpilot] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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I would like to hit the gym for purely physique reasons. I do stuff at home like planks and wall sits etc for core strength. But hitting some weights would be nice to maintain size as climbing will only tone me not get me bigger.

Bodybuilding is okay but there are a lot of noobs on there (not saying I'm an expert or anything). Actually one of the best lifting forums is on offtopic.com but they are HUGE elitist douches on that site.

I was just looking to hear from someone who both climbs and works out for physique. Btw, heavy weight doesn't mean bigger muscles. Olympic lifters aren't nearly as big as some bodybuilders because they work more on explosive movement then slow and controlled for size


caughtinside


Sep 14, 2009, 6:22 PM
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Re: [Tactix23] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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How much ya bench?


therat


Sep 14, 2009, 6:57 PM
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Only time I lift weights is when I have to take a piss...


Partner angry


Sep 14, 2009, 7:15 PM
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Re: [therat] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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therat wrote:
Only time I lift weights is when I have to take a piss...

That's funny, the only time I lift weights is also when you have to take a piss.


Ya, I'm confused too.


el_layclimber


Sep 14, 2009, 7:31 PM
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Re: [angry] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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angry wrote:
therat wrote:
Only time I lift weights is when I have to take a piss...

That's funny, the only time I lift weights is also when you have to take a piss.


Ya, I'm confused too.

Now that is a five-star post.


whipper


Sep 14, 2009, 7:50 PM
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Re: [Tactix23] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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Hey, I lift to maintain how I look on a regular basis, it does help that I work at a gym.
I also lift all major muscle groups and dont let climbing interfere with my back and/or Bicep work outs. It will help prevent injuries, especially in the shoulders and being strong is healthy all the way around I think. WIll it help climbing, prob not. a few years ago I was 196 lbs, and benched 325. I only climbed up to 5.11 at the time. I have slimed down to 185 and stil dont climb much harder. Climbing helps climbing, lifting helps with the ladies. DIff sports. It feels good to me to be strong, thats really why I lift.


pfwein


Sep 14, 2009, 9:10 PM
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If you're determined to build your pecs, you may want to think about dips as that could have have some cross over to manteling.

I became a better climber when I pretty much stopped lifting weights and applied the time/energy I would have spent lifting, climbing. I still do some some push ups and dips, which seems to maintain muscle mass--that's probably a bad thing but some habits are hard to break.

If I could live my life over, I probably wouldn't have spent nearly as much time weight-lifting as I did, and I certainly wouldn't recommend anything other than the old do-a-little-work-for-antagonistic-muscles-to-avoid-huge-imbalances if you want to improve your climbing.


Tactix23


Sep 15, 2009, 10:11 AM
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Re: [pfwein] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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pfwein wrote:
If you're determined to build your pecs, you may want to think about dips as that could have have some cross over to manteling.

I became a better climber when I pretty much stopped lifting weights and applied the time/energy I would have spent lifting, climbing. I still do some some push ups and dips, which seems to maintain muscle mass--that's probably a bad thing but some habits are hard to break.

If I could live my life over, I probably wouldn't have spent nearly as much time weight-lifting as I did, and I certainly wouldn't recommend anything other than the old do-a-little-work-for-antagonistic-muscles-to-avoid-huge-imbalances if you want to improve your climbing.

I'm not worried about lifting weights having a horrible effect on my climbing. Mostly because I don't plan on gaining anything but lean muscle (by using a proper diet) and I also don't plan on eating enough protein to get huge. I keep it within the 100-150 range at most.

To be honest, I just personally feel I have shit chest genetics as when I did work out, that was by far the hardest area to gain size in. Now I'm starting to look a little silly that my shoulders are gaining great size from rock climbing. I would like to square out my chest and also work my legs and triceps which get neglected.

Chest and tris I'm thinking

incline/flat bench cable pullovers, incline flys, dips, tricep extension

And legs

Squats, lunges, straight legged deadlifts, calf raises


(This post was edited by Tactix23 on Sep 15, 2009, 10:13 AM)


scotty1974


Sep 15, 2009, 10:36 AM
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One aspect to remember is what type of body frame do you have. Are you prone to bulk up quick, lean or gangly? I'm wide and very thick up top, with a decent ape index, so I stick to more dumbells with full range of motion as opposed to powerlifting.

Also do you need to get bigger? I was about 190lbs. 5'8sih, so I stopped lifting heavy weights as I was getting a little Hulky. I couldn't see my feet since my boobs were in the way! Now I switched over more to interval training ala' crossfit, gymjones and mountain athlete, focusing on alot of pushups, dips and pullups.

You DO NOT want to focus only on your back, unless you want to look like one of the hunchback gym monkeys that you see running around the climbing gym. You need to balance out your body or you'll be cruzing for injuries. If you do alot of pulls, then work the chest and front delts to balance it out and avoid pulling your joints of out wack. I like to also include some yoga and some overhead pulls to help stretch out the chest cavity to balance it out with a strong upper back.

In addition there is no such thing as spot weight reduction, so if you want to build overall strength and induce weight loss, work the whole body...legs and all.

And of course...FOCUS ON YOUR CORE!! Involve it in every workout you do. Not only will it help you build climbing strength, but will help you avoid injury.


armsrforclimbing


Sep 15, 2009, 10:36 AM
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I have had an excellent experience with Crossfit. Check it out at http://www.crossfit.com. The workouts are intense and varied, and you get great results. Plus you don't need to reinvent the wheel, its all done for you. Oh, and the workout info is all free, but you can join a Crossfit Gym to get the basics down.


armsrforclimbing


Sep 15, 2009, 10:40 AM
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Re: [testpilot] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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I should have read your post first Testpilot. You are right on about the functional strength, and the physique follows.


pfwein


Sep 15, 2009, 10:56 AM
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OK, perhaps your plan will work for you. I'm someone who did put on chest muscle on fairly easily, which may seem like a good thing, but it doesn't help climbing. If you're a "hard gainer," I see where you're coming from, sort of. But remember that many/most high level climbers are stick thin, so don't sweat it.

A few more comments: it sounds like you're determined to go to a weightlifting gym and that's what you should do if you want, but body weight exercises may be a good alternative. I use the little push-up handles (like Perfect Push Up but not as fancy), and especially if you elevate your legs, you can essentially achieve the same benefit as bench pressing moderate weights. Throw in some dips I do at the neighborhood playground, things like L-sits for core (also use the push up handles), and I feel pretty good to go.

As far as weightlifting for legs: I recall reading an old Horst book where he strongly recommended against doing that. Seeing as how I hated doing squats, that was easy advice for me to follow.Smile


sidepull


Sep 15, 2009, 12:10 PM
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Re: [Tactix23] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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Tactix, I think you're not going to get very good advice here. This is a technique and training forum and what you seem to want is physique training which is a very different focus.

That said, I would be surprised if you didn't see significant improvement in your "areas of weakness" by doing crossfit for 2 months.

Realize though that you have to carefully integrate training for climbing (gaining climbing strength and technique) with any sort of cross-training for climbing (injury prevention and muscle balance) otherwise you'll likely plateau and get frustrated from some form of over training.


BenKenobi


Sep 15, 2009, 12:28 PM
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Re: [Tactix23] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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Tactix23 wrote:

To be honest, I just personally feel I have shit chest genetics as when I did work out, that was by far the hardest area to gain size in. Now I'm starting to look a little silly that my shoulders are gaining great size from rock climbing. I would like to square out my chest and also work my legs and triceps which get neglected.

Chest and tris I'm thinking

incline/flat bench cable pullovers, incline flys, dips, tricep extension

If that is your normal chest routine, then that explains why you've never made good gains. You need to do some type of compound movement, e.g., bench press. Incline press puts less stress on your rotator cuff. Any type of press will also work your triceps.

Of course, none of this has much of anything to do with climbing.


mleogrande


Sep 15, 2009, 1:06 PM
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I climb frequently and also weight train. I think it's good to keep balanced in strength between chest and back. Just make sure not to gain bulk unless you have goals outside of climbing. Also, just doing a push-up program or something like that would be good too. Just for reference, I'm a solid 5.12 climber.


pfwein


Sep 15, 2009, 1:41 PM
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Re: [BenKenobi] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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BenKenobi wrote:
Tactix23 wrote:

To be honest, I just personally feel I have shit chest genetics as when I did work out, that was by far the hardest area to gain size in. Now I'm starting to look a little silly that my shoulders are gaining great size from rock climbing. I would like to square out my chest and also work my legs and triceps which get neglected.

Chest and tris I'm thinking

incline/flat bench cable pullovers, incline flys, dips, tricep extension

If that is your normal chest routine, then that explains why you've never made good gains. You need to do some type of compound movement, e.g., bench press. Incline press puts less stress on your rotator cuff. Any type of press will also work your triceps.

Of course, none of this has much of anything to do with climbing.

This is a subtle point, but I think he meant to say that he will do incline and flat bench presses, not incline and flat bench pullovers, and he just forgot a comma.
Here is my reasoning:
note he just wrote incline flys, not incline bench flys.
Therefore, when he uses bench, he probably means bench press, which is not uncommon terminology.


TerminalVelocity


Sep 15, 2009, 3:35 PM
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Re: [pfwein] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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Your weight and lifting abilities would help to give you advice on chest and tri workouts. Also skip all the squats and that shit. Instead kill two birds with one stone. Do a true nordic ski machine with the incline high, to develop your leg size and strength while also improving cardio and leg endurance.


aerili


Sep 15, 2009, 10:42 PM
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TerminalVelocity wrote:
Also skip all the squats and that shit. Instead kill two birds with one stone. Do a true nordic ski machine with the incline high, to develop your leg size and strength while also improving cardio and leg endurance.

Right, cause it's totally possible to train SIZE AND STRENGTH while you simultaneously train ENDURANCE in the same muscle group.

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Tactix23


Sep 16, 2009, 7:09 AM
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Re: [BenKenobi] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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In reply to:

If that is your normal chest routine, then that explains why you've never made good gains. You need to do some type of compound movement, e.g., bench press. Incline press puts less stress on your rotator cuff. Any type of press will also work your triceps.

Of course, none of this has much of anything to do with climbing.

1) Incline bench press is a compound.... lol

2) I said I would do both flat and incline

3) That is a stereotypical classic body building chest workout with some things missing

4) Incline bench are one of the best exercises for upper chest

5) Yes, my triceps will get worked through bench. So what?

6) Yes, this has nothing to do with climbing. Other than the fact that I want to workout specific areas that aren't worked in climbing to EVEN MY BODY out

7) Flat bench is nowhere near the best exercise for chest. It is more of a full upper body lift. Pushups, flys etc are better for chest


(This post was edited by Tactix23 on Sep 16, 2009, 7:13 AM)


Tactix23


Sep 16, 2009, 7:10 AM
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Re: [pfwein] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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pfwein wrote:
BenKenobi wrote:
Tactix23 wrote:

To be honest, I just personally feel I have shit chest genetics as when I did work out, that was by far the hardest area to gain size in. Now I'm starting to look a little silly that my shoulders are gaining great size from rock climbing. I would like to square out my chest and also work my legs and triceps which get neglected.

Chest and tris I'm thinking

incline/flat bench cable pullovers, incline flys, dips, tricep extension

If that is your normal chest routine, then that explains why you've never made good gains. You need to do some type of compound movement, e.g., bench press. Incline press puts less stress on your rotator cuff. Any type of press will also work your triceps.

Of course, none of this has much of anything to do with climbing.

This is a subtle point, but I think he meant to say that he will do incline and flat bench presses, not incline and flat bench pullovers, and he just forgot a comma.
Here is my reasoning:
note he just wrote incline flys, not incline bench flys.
Therefore, when he uses bench, he probably means bench press, which is not uncommon terminology.

correct. Although I'm still nervous the guy thought incline bench wasn't a compound exercise


Tactix23


Sep 16, 2009, 7:11 AM
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Re: [TerminalVelocity] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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TerminalVelocity wrote:
Your weight and lifting abilities would help to give you advice on chest and tri workouts. Also skip all the squats and that shit. Instead kill two birds with one stone. Do a true nordic ski machine with the incline high, to develop your leg size and strength while also improving cardio and leg endurance.

Squats, when done properly, are one of the best exercises you can do. It works your entire body. It also gives you great core strength (balance 300 pounds on your shoulders?) which is very applicable to climbing.

It would be stupid of me not to do squats. Unless I had a bad back or a bad knee problem


(This post was edited by Tactix23 on Sep 16, 2009, 7:12 AM)


sidepull


Sep 16, 2009, 7:41 AM
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priceless title [In reply to]
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this thread is only going to get better*














* better = worse, which is good**














** good = bad


roy_hinkley_jr


Sep 16, 2009, 8:33 AM
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As usual, leave it to the crossfitters to prove they know nothing about training or physiology. They're just as bad as the chicks that lift pink dumbbells to "tone" --only at the opposite end of the scale. A crossfitter wouldn't know true functional strength even after it hit them upside the head. It's a shame because there are a few bits of wisdom in crosstraining but they water it down with so much nonsense that the good gets overwhelmed by the dogma.


lena_chita
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Sep 16, 2009, 8:48 AM
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Re: [aerili] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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aerili wrote:
Right, cause it's totally possible to train SIZE AND STRENGTH while you simultaneously train ENDURANCE in the same muscle group.

I quoted you to see that smiley getting burried again, but it doesn't come through in quote!

(O.K., I quoted you to see some sense in this thread, but I still liked that smiley!

The look on it's 'face' when the first brick hits...)


mr.tastycakes


Sep 16, 2009, 9:11 AM
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as i've gotten more and more into climbing, i keep cutting down on lifting weights. I aim for 4 climbing days per week, and only one lifting day which consists of:

squats (4-5 working sets; front or back squats)
clean and press (3-4 working sets), and
incline or flat bench (3-4 working sets)

one hour per week, all hard compound lifts. DONE. isolation exercises pale in comparison. lift like an athlete, not like a bodybuilder, eh? Arms day is for weenies.

Like most people, sat/sun are my outdoor climbing days, so i try to put the lifting in the middle of the week so i'm fully recovered by saturday.

and squats are one of the best exercise out there for total body strength...don't drop 'em from your routine.


scotty1974


Sep 16, 2009, 10:36 AM
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Will this information be shared or just pointed out that it's wrong?

I'm interested to hear what the issues are.


TerminalVelocity


Sep 16, 2009, 4:50 PM
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Re: [aerili] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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aerili wrote:
TerminalVelocity wrote:
Also skip all the squats and that shit. Instead kill two birds with one stone. Do a true nordic ski machine with the incline high, to develop your leg size and strength while also improving cardio and leg endurance.

Right, cause it's totally possible to train SIZE AND STRENGTH while you simultaneously train ENDURANCE in the same muscle group.

Wow, your a complete fucking moron. You should just stick with paying for girls at "The Ranch".


Tactix23


Sep 16, 2009, 5:40 PM
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Re: [mr.tastycakes] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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mr.tastycakes wrote:
as i've gotten more and more into climbing, i keep cutting down on lifting weights. I aim for 4 climbing days per week, and only one lifting day which consists of:

squats (4-5 working sets; front or back squats)
clean and press (3-4 working sets), and
incline or flat bench (3-4 working sets)

one hour per week, all hard compound lifts. DONE. isolation exercises pale in comparison. lift like an athlete, not like a bodybuilder, eh? Arms day is for weenies.

Like most people, sat/sun are my outdoor climbing days, so i try to put the lifting in the middle of the week so i'm fully recovered by saturday.

and squats are one of the best exercise out there for total body strength...don't drop 'em from your routine.

this is actually great advice.. I might try this, since I only have time for 1-2 lift days anyway. I might as well do one good compact one. I'll throw in pushups on off days if I feel like it too


zeke_sf


Sep 16, 2009, 5:49 PM
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Re: [TerminalVelocity] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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TerminalVelocity wrote:
aerili wrote:
TerminalVelocity wrote:
Also skip all the squats and that shit. Instead kill two birds with one stone. Do a true nordic ski machine with the incline high, to develop your leg size and strength while also improving cardio and leg endurance.

Right, cause it's totally possible to train SIZE AND STRENGTH while you simultaneously train ENDURANCE in the same muscle group.

Wow, your a complete fucking moron. You should just stick with paying for girls at "The Ranch".

Um, I'd like to see Aerili pay for girls at "The Ranch". Usually though, girls get dances free at strip joints.

Look, if you're going to snap at everyone here who has forgotten more than you've ever known -- which, I suspect, is a very long list in your case -- this is going to be a bumpy ride for you, and, I'll be honest, you'll probably wind up looking like a complete fucking moron in the process.


TerminalVelocity


Sep 16, 2009, 5:52 PM
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Yeah, I don't know shit, I'm a "Crossfitter". Shut the FUCK UP! You don't know me. I played running back in high school at 5'8 210, so I believe I know how to lift for size and strength.

Tactix I'll give you some advice but, as usually the morons who "Think they know everyhting", will no doubt chime in. I'll tell you what worked for me when I was lifting but, people are different so I can't say it will help but hopefully get you in the right direction.

Chest and Tris.

Bench: 3 sets. first set 10 easy reps. Second a weight at around 6-8 reps. Third Max. Stick at that max weight until you can do 3 reps (without really struggling) Then once you can do that add 20 pounds. Say you ORM at 315, once you can do that comfortable 3 times try 335 and the so on.

Incline: same as bench

Close grip: 3 sets, 10,6,4

Flys: Best on the machine, 3 sets, first 10, then 4-8 for last 2 sets.

Dips: 2 sets chest forward until failure, the 2 sets chest back 2 sets until failure (for the tris this is probably the best exercise.)

Pushdowns: 3, sets.

Shrugs: 3 sets, 10,8,6.

Switch up some of the exercises once an awhile. Try kickbacks, skull crushers overhead and military presses. Also for one week every month, do lighter weight and higher reps in the 12-20 range.

Bulky legs are annoying, but here are the exercises.

Squats: 4 sets, 10,8,6,4. Go deep, at least parallel but aim past that, almost as if trying to touch your ass on the floor.

Hack Squats: I did these facing the padding of the machine to really hit the quads. 4 sets, 10,8,6,10.

90 Degree Leg Press. 3 sets, 10,8,6.

Extensions: 3 sets, 10,8,6.

Leg Curls: 3 set 10,8,8.

Seated Calf Rises: 4 sets, 10,8,6,12.

Standing Calf Rises: 3 sets, 10,6,12.

I would advise aganist lunges, they can easily cause problems.

Hope this helps. Good Luck on your goals.Wink


Partner angry


Sep 16, 2009, 5:53 PM
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TerminalVelocity wrote:
aerili wrote:
TerminalVelocity wrote:
Also skip all the squats and that shit. Instead kill two birds with one stone. Do a true nordic ski machine with the incline high, to develop your leg size and strength while also improving cardio and leg endurance.

Right, cause it's totally possible to train SIZE AND STRENGTH while you simultaneously train ENDURANCE in the same muscle group.

Wow, your a complete fucking moron. You should just stick with paying for girls at "The Ranch".

I hear Aerili does that all the time


zeke_sf


Sep 16, 2009, 5:54 PM
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angry wrote:
TerminalVelocity wrote:
aerili wrote:
TerminalVelocity wrote:
Also skip all the squats and that shit. Instead kill two birds with one stone. Do a true nordic ski machine with the incline high, to develop your leg size and strength while also improving cardio and leg endurance.

Right, cause it's totally possible to train SIZE AND STRENGTH while you simultaneously train ENDURANCE in the same muscle group.

Wow, your a complete fucking moron. You should just stick with paying for girls at "The Ranch".

I hear Aerili does that all the time

Oh, you dumb bitch. I GU'd you so hard.


zeke_sf


Sep 16, 2009, 5:56 PM
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TerminalVelocity wrote:
Yeah, I don't know shit, I'm a "Crossfitter". Shut the FUCK UP! You don't know me. I played running back in high school at 5'8 210, so I believe I know how to lift for size and strength.

Tactix I'll give you some advice but, as usually the morons who "Think they know everyhting", will no doubt chime in. I'll tell you what worked for me when I was lifting but, people are different so I can't say it will help but hopefully get you in the right direction.

Chest and Tris.

Bench: 3 sets. first set 10 easy reps. Second a weight at around 6-8 reps. Third Max. Stick at that max weight until you can do 3 reps (without really struggling) Then once you can do that add 20 pounds. Say you ORM at 315, once you can do that comfortable 3 times try 335 and the so on.

Incline: same as bench

Close grip: 3 sets, 10,6,4

Flys: Best on the machine, 3 sets, first 10, then 4-8 for last 2 sets.

Dips: 2 sets chest forward until failure, the 2 sets chest back 2 sets until failure (for the tris this is probably the best exercise.)

Pushdowns: 3, sets.

Shrugs: 3 sets, 10,8,6.

Switch up some of the exercises once an awhile. Try kickbacks, skull crushers overhead and military presses. Also for one week every month, do lighter weight and higher reps in the 12-20 range.

Bulky legs are annoying, but here are the exercises.

Squats: 4 sets, 10,8,6,4. Go deep, at least parallel but aim past that, almost as if trying to touch your ass on the floor.

Hack Squats: I did these facing the padding of the machine to really hit the quads. 4 sets, 10,8,6,10.

90 Degree Leg Press. 3 sets, 10,8,6.

Extensions: 3 sets, 10,8,6.

Leg Curls: 3 set 10,8,8.

Seated Calf Rises: 4 sets, 10,8,6,12.

Standing Calf Rises: 3 sets, 10,6,12.

I would advise aganist lunges, they can easily cause problems.

Hope this helps. Good Luck on your goals.Wink

I'm quoting this for when you decide to erase all your posts in a hissy fit!


TerminalVelocity


Sep 16, 2009, 6:10 PM
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zeke_sf wrote:
TerminalVelocity wrote:
aerili wrote:
TerminalVelocity wrote:
Also skip all the squats and that shit. Instead kill two birds with one stone. Do a true nordic ski machine with the incline high, to develop your leg size and strength while also improving cardio and leg endurance.

Right, cause it's totally possible to train SIZE AND STRENGTH while you simultaneously train ENDURANCE in the same muscle group.

Wow, your a complete fucking moron. You should just stick with paying for girls at "The Ranch".

Um, I'd like to see Aerili pay for girls at "The Ranch". Usually though, girls get dances free at strip joints.

Look, if you're going to snap at everyone here who has forgotten more than you've ever known -- which, I suspect, is a very long list in your case -- this is going to be a bumpy ride for you, and, I'll be honest, you'll probably wind up looking like a complete fucking moron in the process.

No, I just have a problem with assholes who act and think that they have a PHD in every aspect of life. Lastly, your in no position to question intelligence, you have over 15,000 posts. Maybe, you might want to try and get out in the real world and gain some knowledge in common sense.


whipper


Sep 16, 2009, 6:20 PM
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Wow, high school football running back. Everyone really should show that guy some respect.
I bet everyone else on here were just band nerds...


zeke_sf


Sep 16, 2009, 6:22 PM
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TerminalVelocity wrote:
zeke_sf wrote:
TerminalVelocity wrote:
aerili wrote:
TerminalVelocity wrote:
Also skip all the squats and that shit. Instead kill two birds with one stone. Do a true nordic ski machine with the incline high, to develop your leg size and strength while also improving cardio and leg endurance.

Right, cause it's totally possible to train SIZE AND STRENGTH while you simultaneously train ENDURANCE in the same muscle group.

Wow, your a complete fucking moron. You should just stick with paying for girls at "The Ranch".

Um, I'd like to see Aerili pay for girls at "The Ranch". Usually though, girls get dances free at strip joints.

Look, if you're going to snap at everyone here who has forgotten more than you've ever known -- which, I suspect, is a very long list in your case -- this is going to be a bumpy ride for you, and, I'll be honest, you'll probably wind up looking like a complete fucking moron in the process.

No, I just have a problem with assholes who act and think that they have a PHD in every aspect of life. Lastly, your in no position to question intelligence, you have over 15,000 posts. Maybe, you might want to try and get out in the real world and gain some knowledge in common sense.

No, she didn't act like she had a Ph.D. in every aspect of life, she actually acted like she had knowledge in a subject she has a lot of knowledge in. YOUR right though, I am in no position to question YOUR intelligence. It speaks entirely for itself. Touting your pathetic post count as a moral victory is lame, but the fact you probably can't even climb worth a shit with all your lifting is recompense enough for me...


(This post was edited by zeke_sf on Sep 16, 2009, 6:23 PM)


Partner angry


Sep 16, 2009, 6:32 PM
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TerminalVelocity wrote:
zeke_sf wrote:
TerminalVelocity wrote:
aerili wrote:
TerminalVelocity wrote:
Also skip all the squats and that shit. Instead kill two birds with one stone. Do a true nordic ski machine with the incline high, to develop your leg size and strength while also improving cardio and leg endurance.

Right, cause it's totally possible to train SIZE AND STRENGTH while you simultaneously train ENDURANCE in the same muscle group.

Wow, your a complete fucking moron. You should just stick with paying for girls at "The Ranch".

Um, I'd like to see Aerili pay for girls at "The Ranch". Usually though, girls get dances free at strip joints.

Look, if you're going to snap at everyone here who has forgotten more than you've ever known -- which, I suspect, is a very long list in your case -- this is going to be a bumpy ride for you, and, I'll be honest, you'll probably wind up looking like a complete fucking moron in the process.

No, I just have a problem with assholes who act and think that they have a PHD in every aspect of life. Lastly, your in no position to question intelligence, you have over 15,000 posts. Maybe, you might want to try and get out in the real world and gain some knowledge in common sense.

you're


Partner angry


Sep 16, 2009, 6:33 PM
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Fuck you Zeke, no, double fuck you.


zeke_sf


Sep 16, 2009, 6:35 PM
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angry wrote:
Fuck you Zeke, no, double fuck you.

Oh, you beautiful man you. You've made my night. You can't pay for that kind of satisfaction. Well, at The Ranch you can. It's not exactly legal though, and the boyfriend gets to watch.


TerminalVelocity


Sep 16, 2009, 6:53 PM
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zeke_sf wrote:
TerminalVelocity wrote:
zeke_sf wrote:
TerminalVelocity wrote:
aerili wrote:
TerminalVelocity wrote:
Also skip all the squats and that shit. Instead kill two birds with one stone. Do a true nordic ski machine with the incline high, to develop your leg size and strength while also improving cardio and leg endurance.

Right, cause it's totally possible to train SIZE AND STRENGTH while you simultaneously train ENDURANCE in the same muscle group.

Wow, your a complete fucking moron. You should just stick with paying for girls at "The Ranch".

Um, I'd like to see Aerili pay for girls at "The Ranch". Usually though, girls get dances free at strip joints.

Look, if you're going to snap at everyone here who has forgotten more than you've ever known -- which, I suspect, is a very long list in your case -- this is going to be a bumpy ride for you, and, I'll be honest, you'll probably wind up looking like a complete fucking moron in the process.

No, I just have a problem with assholes who act and think that they have a PHD in every aspect of life. Lastly, your in no position to question intelligence, you have over 15,000 posts. Maybe, you might want to try and get out in the real world and gain some knowledge in common sense.

No, she didn't act like she had a Ph.D. in every aspect of life, she actually acted like she had knowledge in a subject she has a lot of knowledge in. YOUR right though, I am in no position to question YOUR intelligence. It speaks entirely for itself. Touting your pathetic post count as a moral victory is lame, but the fact you probably can't even climb worth a shit with all your lifting is recompense enough for me...

Yeah, she has a "LOT" of experience being a man and gaining muscle mass as a man. What is your basis for which she has all this insightful info on the subject? Are you implying that by "a lot of knowledge" as you put it, she is a man?


Partner angry


Sep 16, 2009, 6:58 PM
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TerminalVelocity wrote:
zeke_sf wrote:
TerminalVelocity wrote:
zeke_sf wrote:
TerminalVelocity wrote:
aerili wrote:
TerminalVelocity wrote:
Also skip all the squats and that shit. Instead kill two birds with one stone. Do a true nordic ski machine with the incline high, to develop your leg size and strength while also improving cardio and leg endurance.

Right, cause it's totally possible to train SIZE AND STRENGTH while you simultaneously train ENDURANCE in the same muscle group.

Wow, your a complete fucking moron. You should just stick with paying for girls at "The Ranch".

Um, I'd like to see Aerili pay for girls at "The Ranch". Usually though, girls get dances free at strip joints.

Look, if you're going to snap at everyone here who has forgotten more than you've ever known -- which, I suspect, is a very long list in your case -- this is going to be a bumpy ride for you, and, I'll be honest, you'll probably wind up looking like a complete fucking moron in the process.

No, I just have a problem with assholes who act and think that they have a PHD in every aspect of life. Lastly, your in no position to question intelligence, you have over 15,000 posts. Maybe, you might want to try and get out in the real world and gain some knowledge in common sense.

No, she didn't act like she had a Ph.D. in every aspect of life, she actually acted like she had knowledge in a subject she has a lot of knowledge in. YOUR right though, I am in no position to question YOUR intelligence. It speaks entirely for itself. Touting your pathetic post count as a moral victory is lame, but the fact you probably can't even climb worth a shit with all your lifting is recompense enough for me...

Yeah, she has a "LOT" of experience being a man and gaining muscle mass as a man. What is your basis for which she has all this insightful info on the subject? Are you implying that by "a lot of knowledge" as you put it, she is a man?

If by man you mean a degree in Exercise Physiology and years of experience training all sorts of people, including men, then yes, she's a man. In fact, she probably taught the people who taught the classes that your trainer from H.S. football got the notes from once. To put it in perspective.

So whether or not she's the man, she definitely owns your ass.

And fuck you zeke, if you go 3 times on this one, I'll cut you.


(This post was edited by angry on Sep 16, 2009, 7:00 PM)


TerminalVelocity


Sep 16, 2009, 7:17 PM
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angry wrote:
TerminalVelocity wrote:
zeke_sf wrote:
TerminalVelocity wrote:
zeke_sf wrote:
TerminalVelocity wrote:
aerili wrote:
TerminalVelocity wrote:
Also skip all the squats and that shit. Instead kill two birds with one stone. Do a true nordic ski machine with the incline high, to develop your leg size and strength while also improving cardio and leg endurance.

Right, cause it's totally possible to train SIZE AND STRENGTH while you simultaneously train ENDURANCE in the same muscle group.

Wow, your a complete fucking moron. You should just stick with paying for girls at "The Ranch".

Um, I'd like to see Aerili pay for girls at "The Ranch". Usually though, girls get dances free at strip joints.

Look, if you're going to snap at everyone here who has forgotten more than you've ever known -- which, I suspect, is a very long list in your case -- this is going to be a bumpy ride for you, and, I'll be honest, you'll probably wind up looking like a complete fucking moron in the process.

No, I just have a problem with assholes who act and think that they have a PHD in every aspect of life. Lastly, your in no position to question intelligence, you have over 15,000 posts. Maybe, you might want to try and get out in the real world and gain some knowledge in common sense.

No, she didn't act like she had a Ph.D. in every aspect of life, she actually acted like she had knowledge in a subject she has a lot of knowledge in. YOUR right though, I am in no position to question YOUR intelligence. It speaks entirely for itself. Touting your pathetic post count as a moral victory is lame, but the fact you probably can't even climb worth a shit with all your lifting is recompense enough for me...

Yeah, she has a "LOT" of experience being a man and gaining muscle mass as a man. What is your basis for which she has all this insightful info on the subject? Are you implying that by "a lot of knowledge" as you put it, she is a man?

If by man you mean a degree in Exercise Physiology and years of experience training all sorts of people, including men, then yes, she's a man. In fact, she probably taught the people who taught the classes that your trainer from H.S. football got the notes from once. To put it in perspective.

So whether or not she's the man, she definitely owns your ass.

And fuck you zeke, if you go 3 times on this one, I'll cut you.

Clearly, a degree means you're an expert. She's the one who says you can't gain size and strength while also increasing endurance. Yeah that degree bought her a shit load of useful information. Why don't you ask a someone who is older than a 25 year old just out of school, with proven research and ask them. You are also a moron, a dick, and should try not frequenting your computer so much.


TerminalVelocity


Sep 16, 2009, 7:48 PM
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Haha. Yeah, trainers are so smart, then why the fuck can't they get people in shape? I made my own routine, so I know what works. I didn't realize she knew what worked and how it helped improve my goals. But I was mistaken, she must have been watching from afar. My 20 years of experience are nothing compared to her degree reading old text books, which the information has dramatically changed and continues to change daily.

Let us take your idea of the matter and apply it to climbing. You spend four years reading and listening to lectures on proper technique, anchor setup and so on. So I'm guessing after you graduate with this degree you can climb 5.15 and beyond.

I'll stick with hands on experience over a degree. Why don't you go to Iran with a degree in ethics without speaking Farci, they'll really like you.


(This post was edited by TerminalVelocity on Sep 16, 2009, 8:14 PM)


drewstEEz


Sep 16, 2009, 8:09 PM
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Re: [Tactix23] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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I think you have a pretty good idea of what you want from your workout. Focus on antagonist muscle groups (legs, core, and push muscles) and integrate them into a high rep, medium/light weight workout regimen w/ some cardio. Your goals will determine the weight you use and also the amount of cardio you want. The key is working out to complete failure.

Example workout:

Bench press- 10-6-4's (10 reps at 70%-60% your max weight, 6 reps at 50%-40%, and 4 reps at 30%-20% back-to-back-to-back) Do this three times and make sure you have a spotter! You'll know your using the right weight if the first set was hard but not all you've got.

Add some cardio in there and youll be done.

Not only will this tone you up, you'll see gains in mass (depending on the weight you are using), and best of all, IMHO, you'll improve your lactic acid threshold (muscle endurance).

You can do this type of work out for any muscle group. I use the 10-6-4 only for bench and incorporate multiple exercises back-to-back-to...... for other muscle groups. For example:

Legs

10 squats w/ weight, 15 lunges w/weight, calf raises, jumping squats

do that three times and some cardio.


aerili


Sep 16, 2009, 11:23 PM
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TerminalVelocity wrote:
Wow, your a complete fucking moron. You should just stick with paying for girls at "The Ranch".
Aside from the fact that I never have to pay for sex, T.V., what kind of exercise science research and application did you develop in the fucking moron-ville they call your head?

(I figured that last paragraph was apt to be in language you understand.)



TerminalVelocity wrote:
She's the one who says you can't gain size and strength while also increasing endurance. Yeah that degree bought her a shit load of useful information. Why don't you ask a someone who is older than a 25 year old just out of school, with proven research and ask them.
Firstly, it is true you cannot gain size, strength and endurance all while doing the exact same kind of exercise (i.e. stuff like your Nordic trek recommendation).

Secondly, I LOVE IT when people think I'm 25 and apparently just out of school! I am soooo flattered!!! So much so that I don't think I will burst your bubble with reality.



TerminalVelocity wrote:
My 20 years of experience are nothing compared to her degree reading old text books, which the information has dramatically changed and continues to change daily.
But actually, Mr. Velocity, this quote is truly the best of the bunch.

Why, you ask?

Well, aside from the fact that you think theoretical study has absolutely nothing to do with practical application (regardless of the marvels of science and techology all around you), it just makes me laugh that you actually believe the workout you posted is somehow....hmmm....NEW, PROVEN TO GIVE THE IDEAL RESULTS, or even remotely CUTTING EDGE.

I mean, really, your workout based on h.s. football training from 20 years ago? Cause your knock-me-out training format has been used for that long (and more). But I can tell you, ain't no one in my "qualified, degreed" training studio (where we do train athletes....where men even let ME train THEM to gain MUSCLE! craziness, huh!!) would ask people to pay them for that kind of laymen/noob workout.


aerili


Sep 16, 2009, 11:33 PM
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To angry, TerminalVelocity wrote:
You are also a moron, a dick, and should try not frequenting your computer so much.


Oh yeah--and angry had more brain cells during his second week in utero than you had at age 10. (Which is saying a lot, cause you're born with all the brain cells you'll have, but hey, you have to read stupid stuff like textbooks to know those kind of things.)


Edited to add: sidepull, your prediction has been fulfilled. What were the odds?! So glad I could help Wink


(This post was edited by aerili on Sep 16, 2009, 11:36 PM)


andersjr


Sep 17, 2009, 4:00 AM
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TerminalVelocity wrote:
You don't know me. I played running back in high school at 5'8 210, so I believe I know how to lift for size and strength.

i bet your team would have won state if coach would have put you in that game.

have you ever tried to throw a football over that mountain? i bet you could.

thanks for the info Uncle Rico.


TerminalVelocity


Sep 17, 2009, 5:41 AM
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aerili wrote:
TerminalVelocity wrote:
Wow, your a complete fucking moron. You should just stick with paying for girls at "The Ranch".
Aside from the fact that I never have to pay for sex, T.V., what kind of exercise science research and application did you develop in the fucking moron-ville they call your head?

(I figured that last paragraph was apt to be in language you understand.)



TerminalVelocity wrote:
She's the one who says you can't gain size and strength while also increasing endurance. Yeah that degree bought her a shit load of useful information. Why don't you ask a someone who is older than a 25 year old just out of school, with proven research and ask them.
Firstly, it is true you cannot gain size, strength and endurance all while doing the exact same kind of exercise (i.e. stuff like your Nordic trek recommendation).

Secondly, I LOVE IT when people think I'm 25 and apparently just out of school! I am soooo flattered!!! So much so that I don't think I will burst your bubble with reality.



TerminalVelocity wrote:
My 20 years of experience are nothing compared to her degree reading old text books, which the information has dramatically changed and continues to change daily.
But actually, Mr. Velocity, this quote is truly the best of the bunch.

Why, you ask?

Well, aside from the fact that you think theoretical study has absolutely nothing to do with practical application (regardless of the marvels of science and techology all around you), it just makes me laugh that you actually believe the workout you posted is somehow....hmmm....NEW, PROVEN TO GIVE THE IDEAL RESULTS, or even remotely CUTTING EDGE.

I mean, really, your workout based on h.s. football training from 20 years ago? Cause your knock-me-out training format has been used for that long (and more). But I can tell you, ain't no one in my "qualified, degreed" training studio (where we do train athletes....where men even let ME train THEM to gain MUSCLE! craziness, huh!!) would ask people to pay them for that kind of laymen/noob workout.

Hahaha I gave advice saying what worked for me, as far as gaining SIZE, but obviously your degree didn't come along with the ability to understand the english language. But I'm curious, when did I say this was the "New and Cutting edge workout"? Please tell me, when does having a degree make "you" a qualified expert? If you truly had any knowledge you would know that, some things don't work for some people while others do.

But, you clearly "know" more than everybody, with "your" studio and its cohorts.

I'm very curious and have a question to ask. What size is that stick up your ass?


(This post was edited by TerminalVelocity on Sep 17, 2009, 6:38 AM)


johnwesely


Sep 17, 2009, 6:04 AM
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TerminalVelocity wrote:
I'm very curious and have a question to ask. What size is that stick up your ass?

Will you join my gang? I could use a big strong boy like you to protect me.


serpico


Sep 17, 2009, 8:53 AM
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In reply to:
Please tell me, when does having a degree make "you" a qualified expert?

Maybe you need to look up the definition of qualified?
Honestly mate, stop digging - it's getting embarrassing.


el_layclimber


Sep 17, 2009, 10:05 AM
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andersjr wrote:
TerminalVelocity wrote:
You don't know me. I played running back in high school at 5'8 210, so I believe I know how to lift for size and strength.

i bet your team would have won state if coach would have put you in that game.

have you ever tried to throw a football over that mountain? i bet you could.

thanks for the info Uncle Rico.

Now, what about that 32 piece set?


sidepull


Sep 17, 2009, 10:26 AM
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aerili wrote:
Edited to add: sidepull, your prediction has been fulfilled. What were the odds?! So glad I could help Wink

To be read as an awards speech:

Wow! I can't, I mean I'm just, *sniff*, there are so many people I need to thank. To the OP, I always believed in you man. To Terminal Velocity - you've done so much for me, you've been my inspiration. To Aerili, we've been through so much together. I'm really really really proud of this thread and I'd like to thank the Academy for selecting it. Thank you!

[followed by a "which way off stage? oh that way" walk off stage escorted by two 7 foot tall models in 8" heels making me look like Papa Smurf (you know, because boulderers are shirtless and wear beanies)].


andersjr


Sep 17, 2009, 12:04 PM
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TerminalVelocity wrote:
We also need some way to make us look official, like we got all the answers.

how bout some gold bracelets?

TerminalVelocity wrote:
We need like some name tags with our picture on it, all laminated and what not. I mean, we gotta look legit man.

that's true, that's true


jt512


Sep 17, 2009, 12:12 PM
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Tactix23 wrote:
TerminalVelocity wrote:
Your weight and lifting abilities would help to give you advice on chest and tri workouts. Also skip all the squats and that shit. Instead kill two birds with one stone. Do a true nordic ski machine with the incline high, to develop your leg size and strength while also improving cardio and leg endurance.

Squats, when done properly, are one of the best exercises you can do. It works your entire body. It also gives you great core strength (balance 300 pounds on your shoulders?) which is very applicable to climbing.

It would be stupid of me not to do squats. Unless I had a bad back or a bad knee problem

Or unless you wanted to become a good rock climber.

Jay


Tactix23


Sep 17, 2009, 2:47 PM
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so many fitness noobs on here.. you derive power from your legs, yeah squats will definitely hurt your climbing!


sidepull


Sep 17, 2009, 2:49 PM
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Sweet! Now that you've dissed Jay we have the sequel brewing. Oh this thread just keeps on giving.Cool


jt512


Sep 17, 2009, 2:53 PM
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Tactix23 wrote:
so many fitness noobs on here.. you derive power from your legs, yeah squats will definitely hurt your climbing!

What's your climbing level?

Jay


aerili


Sep 17, 2009, 4:38 PM
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TerminalVelocity wrote:
My 20 years of experience are nothing compared to her degree reading old text books, which the information [sic] has dramatically changed and continues to change daily.

....
But I'm curious, when did I say this was the "New and Cutting edge workout"?
Keeping your thoughts gathered isn't your strong suit, sir.



In reply to:
Please tell me, when does having a degree make "you" a qualified expert?

It's not just my degree that makes me one.

Maybe it's not your fault education never 'took' with you.

But please, feel free to have the last gibberish.


Partner angry


Sep 17, 2009, 5:15 PM
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sidepull wrote:
aerili wrote:
Edited to add: sidepull, your prediction has been fulfilled. What were the odds?! So glad I could help Wink

To be read as an awards speech:

Wow! I can't, I mean I'm just, *sniff*, there are so many people I need to thank. To the OP, I always believed in you man. To Terminal Velocity - you've done so much for me, you've been my inspiration. To Aerili, we've been through so much together. I'm really really really proud of this thread and I'd like to thank the Academy for selecting it. Thank you!

[followed by a "which way off stage? oh that way" walk off stage escorted by two 7 foot tall models in 8" heels making me look like Papa Smurf (you know, because boulderers are shirtless and wear beanies)].




scion


Sep 17, 2009, 7:13 PM
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aerili wrote:
you're born with all the brain cells you'll have
Actually, no, but please don't let that interrupt the beat-down. This is entertaining!


sidepull


Sep 17, 2009, 8:02 PM
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angry you're right, where are pop cultural manners? I totally should have dropped a kanye reference. Alas, missed opportunities left for others to harvest.


onceahardman


Sep 17, 2009, 8:07 PM
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jt512 wrote:
Tactix23 wrote:
so many fitness noobs on here.. you derive power from your legs, yeah squats will definitely hurt your climbing!

What's your climbing level?

Jay

Of course, we all know that if you report a higher level, you, by default, have superior training methods, regardless of the difference between onsight trad, and hangdog sport levels. Clearly, a hangdog sport .12a is "superior" to an onsight, old-school trad .11d. After all, the number is higher.

serpico climbs way harder than you, and (if I'm not mistaken) is a proponent of (some) strength training for rock climbers.

There is a necessary level of strength to pull harder. To utterly dismiss strength training is, IMO foolish.


serpico


Sep 18, 2009, 12:53 AM
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In reply to:
serpico (if I'm not mistaken) is a proponent of (some) strength training for rock climbers.

Some strength training for some rock climbers, I think the majority of climbers don't have the time to prioritise the climbing and fit strength/conditioning sessions in - climbing must come first.
For me I like the idea of having my crag time completely devoted to quality movement and then working on the strength component later using weights, floor work, fingerboards, and system boards.
Using this approach I've upped my bouldering grade 2-3 grades over the last 2yrs, which at 41 and after nearly 20yrs of climbing is I think a reasonable improvement, and I think I've got at least another grade in me...


TerminalVelocity


Sep 18, 2009, 8:55 AM
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Tactix23 wrote:
so many fitness noobs on here.. you derive power from your legs, yeah squats will definitely hurt your climbing!

Says the guy asking for advice.


TerminalVelocity


Sep 18, 2009, 9:01 AM
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aerili wrote:
TerminalVelocity wrote:
My 20 years of experience are nothing compared to her degree reading old text books, which the information [sic] has dramatically changed and continues to change daily.

....
But I'm curious, when did I say this was the "New and Cutting edge workout"?
Keeping your thoughts gathered isn't your strong suit, sir.



In reply to:
Please tell me, when does having a degree make "you" a qualified expert?

It's not just my degree that makes me one.

Maybe it's not your fault education never 'took' with you.

But please, feel free to have the last gibberish.

I'm still wondering what makes you an expert. That's all I want to know.


reno


Sep 18, 2009, 9:05 AM
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TerminalVelocity wrote:
aerili wrote:
TerminalVelocity wrote:
My 20 years of experience are nothing compared to her degree reading old text books, which the information [sic] has dramatically changed and continues to change daily.

....
But I'm curious, when did I say this was the "New and Cutting edge workout"?
Keeping your thoughts gathered isn't your strong suit, sir.



In reply to:
Please tell me, when does having a degree make "you" a qualified expert?

It's not just my degree that makes me one.

Maybe it's not your fault education never 'took' with you.

But please, feel free to have the last gibberish.

I'm still wondering what makes you an expert. That's all I want to know.

She's well educated in the field of sports performance enhancement, has been doing it for years (probably since you first spanked your monkey to the lingerie section of the Sear's Catalog,) keeps current on the scientific literature, and is capable of critical thinking.

Oh, and she can form a coherent thought, something you seem unable or unwilling to do.


TerminalVelocity


Sep 18, 2009, 9:20 AM
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reno wrote:
TerminalVelocity wrote:
aerili wrote:
TerminalVelocity wrote:
My 20 years of experience are nothing compared to her degree reading old text books, which the information [sic] has dramatically changed and continues to change daily.

....
But I'm curious, when did I say this was the "New and Cutting edge workout"?
Keeping your thoughts gathered isn't your strong suit, sir.



In reply to:
Please tell me, when does having a degree make "you" a qualified expert?

It's not just my degree that makes me one.

Maybe it's not your fault education never 'took' with you.

But please, feel free to have the last gibberish.

I'm still wondering what makes you an expert. That's all I want to know.

She's well educated in the field of sports performance enhancement, has been doing it for years (probably since you first spanked your monkey to the lingerie section of the Sear's Catalog,) keeps current on the scientific literature, and is capable of critical thinking.

Oh, and she can form a coherent thought, something you seem unable or unwilling to do.

A well educated man/woman realizes that nobody (himself/herself included) is an expert, but a student for life.


reno


Sep 18, 2009, 9:37 AM
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TerminalVelocity wrote:
A well educated man/woman realizes that nobody (himself/herself included) is an expert, but a student for life.

You seem to think the two are mutually exclusive.

Back to the school books for you, Student.


Tactix23


Sep 18, 2009, 9:50 AM
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TerminalVelocity wrote:
Tactix23 wrote:
so many fitness noobs on here.. you derive power from your legs, yeah squats will definitely hurt your climbing!

Says the guy asking for advice.

There seems to be a lot of miss communication on this website. I didn't ask "How do I build my chest? How do I work my chest?"

I know 101 different chest workouts. I just wanted to hear from someone who climbs and lifts together. From what I have seen, people either lift or climb. Not both (unless they are not serious about one)


gmggg


Sep 18, 2009, 9:50 AM
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TerminalVelocity wrote:
A well educated man/woman realizes that nobody (himself/herself included) is an expert, but a student troll for life.

fixt


Tactix23


Sep 18, 2009, 9:52 AM
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jt512 wrote:
Tactix23 wrote:
so many fitness noobs on here.. you derive power from your legs, yeah squats will definitely hurt your climbing!

What's your climbing level?

Jay

That has nothing to do with this thread. But I climb v5, 5.10 indoor. And that's probably lower than what I can climb seeing as gyms outside new york are much easier to climb in. I've been climbing for 5 months now


(This post was edited by Tactix23 on Sep 18, 2009, 9:53 AM)


jt512


Sep 18, 2009, 10:41 AM
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reno wrote:
TerminalVelocity wrote:
aerili wrote:
TerminalVelocity wrote:
My 20 years of experience are nothing compared to her degree reading old text books, which the information [sic] has dramatically changed and continues to change daily.

....
But I'm curious, when did I say this was the "New and Cutting edge workout"?
Keeping your thoughts gathered isn't your strong suit, sir.



In reply to:
Please tell me, when does having a degree make "you" a qualified expert?

It's not just my degree that makes me one.

Maybe it's not your fault education never 'took' with you.

But please, feel free to have the last gibberish.

I'm still wondering what makes you an expert. That's all I want to know.

She's well educated in the field of sports performance enhancement, has been doing it for years (probably since you first spanked your monkey to the lingerie section of the Sear's Catalog,) keeps current on the scientific literature, and is capable of critical thinking.

And she trains professional athletes.

Jay


jt512


Sep 18, 2009, 10:42 AM
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Tactix23 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Tactix23 wrote:
so many fitness noobs on here.. you derive power from your legs, yeah squats will definitely hurt your climbing!

What's your climbing level?

Jay

That has nothing to do with this thread. But I climb v5, 5.10 indoor. And that's probably lower than what I can climb seeing as gyms outside new york are much easier to climb in. I've been climbing for 5 months now

Quoted for posterity.

Jay


gmggg


Sep 18, 2009, 10:43 AM
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jt512 wrote:
Tactix23 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Tactix23 wrote:
so many fitness noobs on here.. you derive power from your legs, yeah squats will definitely hurt your climbing!

What's your climbing level?

Jay

That has nothing to do with this thread. But I climb v5, 5.10 indoor. And that's probably lower than what I can climb seeing as gyms outside new york are much easier to climb in. I've been climbing for 5 months now

Quoted for posterity.

Jay

Good move.


jt512


Sep 18, 2009, 10:44 AM
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Tactix23 wrote:
TerminalVelocity wrote:
Tactix23 wrote:
so many fitness noobs on here.. you derive power from your legs, yeah squats will definitely hurt your climbing!

Says the guy asking for advice.

There seems to be a lot of miss communication on this website.

We have a beauty pageant runner-up on the website? Who? Not Sarah Palin, I hope.

Jay


jt512


Sep 18, 2009, 10:47 AM
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Tactix23 wrote:
From what I have seen, people either lift or climb. Not both (unless they are not serious about one)

Take a hint from that, you clueless twit.

Jay


MS1


Sep 18, 2009, 11:02 AM
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Tactix, it is surprising that the following fact isn't obvious to you: Your climbing performance can be limited by having too much muscle mass on your body. If you want to pull hard, it is better to be shaped like Adam Ondra than the Rock.

I guess, in your worldview, all jockeys should bulk up and get big. After all, they can pull harder on the reins if they have bigger lats, right?


Tactix23


Sep 18, 2009, 11:04 AM
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jt512 wrote:
Tactix23 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Tactix23 wrote:
so many fitness noobs on here.. you derive power from your legs, yeah squats will definitely hurt your climbing!

What's your climbing level?

Jay

That has nothing to do with this thread. But I climb v5, 5.10 indoor. And that's probably lower than what I can climb seeing as gyms outside new york are much easier to climb in. I've been climbing for 5 months now

Quoted for posterity.

Jay

Not to be a dick, but I climb pretty fucking well for how new I am. So quote me all you want lol... I climb better than people who have been doing it for awhile now.

So how much do you bench? Care to explain why squats are bad for climbing? Or did you really just mean to say a lot of muscle mass is bad for climbing. You get what I am saying right?


MS1


Sep 18, 2009, 11:06 AM
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Just look at how limited he is by those skinny, weak legs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrc2JKEc_bs


Tactix23


Sep 18, 2009, 11:08 AM
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MS1 wrote:
Tactix, it is surprising that the following fact isn't obvious to you: Your climbing performance can be limited by having too much muscle mass on your body. If you want to pull hard, it is better to be shaped like Adam Ondra than the Rock.

I guess, in your worldview, all jockeys should bulk up and get big. After all, they can pull harder on the reins if they have bigger lats, right?

What the hell are you talking about? You elitist climbers can't seem to pull your heads out of your own smug asses. I wasn't asking "How do I get jacked, and will I climb good mad jacked yo?"

I was asking if there were any climbers on here who enjoyed looking well balanced. Not having big shoulders and small chests. You think my climbing ability would be highly hindered if I gained 4 pounds all in my chest? No fucking way, I'm sorry.

The squats are merely to keep my legs strong, work my core and nobody should go without leg work. I'm sorry. On the other hand, I didn't say I was going to do squats to the point were my legs were the size of tree trunks.

Not all of us here wish we were professional climbers. Some of us do it for fun. So I could care less if some random douche in ohio who climbs 5.14 scoffs at my 5.10 indoor and laughs that I want to bench press. Get a clue. lol


Tactix23


Sep 18, 2009, 11:10 AM
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MS1 wrote:
Just look at how limited he is by those skinny, weak legs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrc2JKEc_bs

Nodody said you needed big legs to be a good climber. Nobody said that strong legs are necessarily "big".


Tactix23


Sep 18, 2009, 11:12 AM
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jt512 wrote:
Tactix23 wrote:
From what I have seen, people either lift or climb. Not both (unless they are not serious about one)

Take a hint from that, you clueless twit.

Jay

You're telling me to get a clue??? Wow, this guy is oblivious to anything but himself


MS1


Sep 18, 2009, 11:13 AM
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Re: [Tactix23] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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Dude, if you want to be big and climb a little less hard, fine by me. What people are reacting to is your incredulity that doing squats could limit your climbing performance.


Tactix23


Sep 18, 2009, 11:14 AM
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Re: [Tactix23] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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I'm surprised such and old douche like yourself can't learn to stay out of threads you don't belong in.

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...pe_s_Core_23497.html
but thanks dad!


(This post was edited by Tactix23 on Sep 18, 2009, 11:17 AM)


Tactix23


Sep 18, 2009, 11:16 AM
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Re: [MS1] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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MS1 wrote:
Dude, if you want to be big and climb a little less hard, fine by me. What people are reacting to is your incredulity that doing squats could limit your climbing performance.

Once again, I don't want to be bigger as a person. I want a bigger CHEST and TRICEPS. Which don't get worked much in climbing

And last but not least, you do realize that exercises can be done in many different ways correct? One can do squats with low weight for higher reps correct?


sidepull


Sep 18, 2009, 11:16 AM
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Re: [serpico] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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serpico wrote:
In reply to:
serpico (if I'm not mistaken) is a proponent of (some) strength training for rock climbers.

Some strength training for some rock climbers, I think the majority of climbers don't have the time to prioritise the climbing and fit strength/conditioning sessions in - climbing must come first.
For me I like the idea of having my crag time completely devoted to quality movement and then working on the strength component later using weights, floor work, fingerboards, and system boards.
Using this approach I've upped my bouldering grade 2-3 grades over the last 2yrs, which at 41 and after nearly 20yrs of climbing is I think a reasonable improvement, and I think I've got at least another grade in me...

Serpico,

I don't want to tarnish this thread with "sense" so would you mind posting more details in a new thread?


jt512


Sep 18, 2009, 11:19 AM
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Re: [Tactix23] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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Tactix23 wrote:
So how much do you bench?

I don't. Why would I?

In reply to:
Care to explain why squats are bad for climbing?

Not to you.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Sep 18, 2009, 11:27 AM)


Tactix23


Sep 18, 2009, 11:20 AM
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Re: [sidepull] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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sidepull wrote:
serpico wrote:
In reply to:
serpico (if I'm not mistaken) is a proponent of (some) strength training for rock climbers.

Some strength training for some rock climbers, I think the majority of climbers don't have the time to prioritise the climbing and fit strength/conditioning sessions in - climbing must come first.
For me I like the idea of having my crag time completely devoted to quality movement and then working on the strength component later using weights, floor work, fingerboards, and system boards.
Using this approach I've upped my bouldering grade 2-3 grades over the last 2yrs, which at 41 and after nearly 20yrs of climbing is I think a reasonable improvement, and I think I've got at least another grade in me...

Serpico,

I don't want to tarnish this thread with "sense" so would you mind posting more details in a new thread?

There would have been less bullshit in this thread if the elitist scumbags stayed out. That is the trend on this website however. I don't butt my noise into threads about shit I don't care or know anything about so neither should grandpa


jt512


Sep 18, 2009, 11:22 AM
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Re: [Tactix23] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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Tactix23 wrote:
I'm surprised such and old douche like yourself can't learn to stay out of threads you don't belong in.

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...pe_s_Core_23497.html
but thanks dad!

Sorry, Child. I'll stay out of your the rest of your thread. Let me know if you want to know how to climb 5.13, you know, like I do.

Jay


Tactix23


Sep 18, 2009, 11:26 AM
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Re: [jt512] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
Tactix23 wrote:
I'm surprised such and old douche like yourself can't learn to stay out of threads you don't belong in.

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...pe_s_Core_23497.html
but thanks dad!

Sorry, Child. I'll stay out of your the rest of your thread. Let me know if you want to know how to climb 5.13, you know, like I do.

Jay
Nevermind. Goodbye!


(This post was edited by Tactix23 on Sep 18, 2009, 11:26 AM)


MS1


Sep 18, 2009, 11:27 AM
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Re: [Tactix23] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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Tactix is apparently shocked that, after he posted his plans for a workout schedule in a "technique and training" forum on a website called rockclimbing.com, various rock climbers discussed the effect it might have on his ability to climb rocks.


csproul


Sep 18, 2009, 12:10 PM
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Re: [jt512] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
Tactix23 wrote:
I'm surprised such and old douche like yourself can't learn to stay out of threads you don't belong in.

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...pe_s_Core_23497.html
but thanks dad!

Sorry, Child. I'll stay out of your the rest of your thread. Let me know if you want to know how to climb 5.13, you know, like I do.

Jay
So wait a minute Jay, is your ascent log not up to date...I don't see any 13's in there?Tongue


mr.tastycakes


Sep 18, 2009, 1:16 PM
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Re: [csproul] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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sorry to interrupt the pissing match going on here, but i've got some questions.

(generalizing a bit here) Most people who practice or train people for "skill sports" have rejected the notion that lifting weights necessarily makes you overly bulky, inflexible, and slow. Even people who participate in sports where weight matters and players should be lean and mean (i.e. wrestling, boxing, other martial arts) see value in strength training. What makes climbing inherently different?

All other things being equal (movement skills, athletic attributes, mental game), won't the physically stronger climber climb harder?

For those who discourage strength training for climbing, is your opinion based on the idea that strength training itself is bad for climbing, or on the idea that one will have to sacrifice climbing time (or recovery time) to train strength?

There are some very knowledgeable people on this board and some damn strong climbers...it's a shame that so many threads turn to shit. how about leaving the flaming for the general forum?


jt512


Sep 18, 2009, 1:20 PM
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Re: [csproul] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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csproul wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Tactix23 wrote:
I'm surprised such and old douche like yourself can't learn to stay out of threads you don't belong in.

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...pe_s_Core_23497.html
but thanks dad!

Sorry, Child. I'll stay out of your the rest of your thread. Let me know if you want to know how to climb 5.13, you know, like I do.

Jay
So wait a minute Jay, is your ascent log not up to date...I don't see any 13's in there?Tongue

I shouldn't have said I "climb" 5.13. That's a classic overstatement. I've only rp'ed one 13, and it's not in the route DB.

Jay


MikeSaint


Sep 18, 2009, 1:27 PM
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Sit and take notes. [In reply to]
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If you get on Youtube and look up Ronnie Coleman you will see that you can be JACKED and still rock climb.

Nothing but peanuts suckas.


(This post was edited by MikeSaint on Sep 18, 2009, 1:30 PM)


reno


Sep 18, 2009, 1:29 PM
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Re: [mr.tastycakes] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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mr.tastycakes wrote:
sorry to interrupt the pissing match going on here, but i've got some questions.

(generalizing a bit here) Most people who practice or train people for "skill sports" have rejected the notion that lifting weights necessarily makes you overly bulky, inflexible, and slow. Even people who participate in sports where weight matters and players should be lean and mean (i.e. wrestling, boxing, other martial arts) see value in strength training. What makes climbing inherently different?

None of those involve battling gravity to quite the extent that climbing does. Given that strength training generally involves adding muscle mass, a greater muscle mass = more weight to pull up the rock.

Certainly there can be a balance, but as far as I know, there are few studies that show a positive correlation between doing weight training and climbing better/higher grades.

In reply to:
All other things being equal (movement skills, athletic attributes, mental game), won't the physically stronger climber climb harder?

No. The climber with better technique and greater muscle endurance will climb harder.


johnwesely


Sep 18, 2009, 2:08 PM
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Re: [mr.tastycakes] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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mr.tastycakes wrote:

For those who discourage strength training for climbing, is your opinion based on the idea that strength training itself is bad for climbing, or on the idea that one will have to sacrifice climbing time (or recovery time) to train strength?

Lifting weights is not specific to climbing. There is no workout that I know of that even remotely simulates climbing's use of the forearms. When you are climbing, you fall because your forearms give out. Your forearms give out because they are stressed. The more you weigh, the more they are stressed.


mr.tastycakes


Sep 18, 2009, 2:35 PM
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In reply to:
Lifting weights is not specific to climbing.

no argument from me here. it isn't specific to any sport, except weightlifting.

In reply to:
There is no workout that I know of that even remotely simulates climbing's use of the forearms.

fair enough.

In reply to:
When you are climbing, you fall because your forearms give out.

well, you can fall for any number of reasons. A vicious pump isn't the only cause of falls.

In reply to:
Your forearms give out because they are stressed. The more you weigh, the more they are stressed.

fair enough.

So you're of the opinion that one can't increase strength without gaining weight?


mr.tastycakes


Sep 18, 2009, 2:37 PM
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Re: [reno] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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In reply to:
No. The climber with better technique and greater muscle endurance will climb harder.

By giving our hypothetical climbers differing levels of technique and endurance, you're not holding all other things equal.


(This post was edited by mr.tastycakes on Sep 18, 2009, 2:38 PM)


reno


Sep 18, 2009, 2:45 PM
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mr.tastycakes wrote:
In reply to:
No. The climber with better technique and greater muscle endurance will climb harder.

By giving our hypothetical climbers differing levels of technique and endurance, you're not holding all other things equal.

It doesn't matter... there is still no data to indicate that a "stronger" climber (whatever that means, but in the context of this thread, it means someone who lifts weights and does squats) will be any better.

If that's your position: That a climber who can bench more, or squat more, or curl more, will be better as a rock climber, then please show us the scientific data.


mr.tastycakes


Sep 18, 2009, 2:54 PM
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I've never said strength training will improve your climbing. I'm interested in examining the reasons why some people believe it will be detrimental.

I've got no data to support my positions; actually, I don't have a position on this topic. I'm just interested in the basis of others' beliefs.


scion


Sep 18, 2009, 3:20 PM
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mr.tastycakes wrote:
I've never said strength training will improve your climbing. I'm interested in examining the reasons why some people believe it will be detrimental.

I've got no data to support my positions; actually, I don't have a position on this topic. I'm just interested in the basis of others' beliefs.
Well, Tactix apparently wants to add 4 lbs of mass to his chest, so maybe he could volunteer to strap that amount of weight on right now and let us know how much it helps his climbing. For the vast majority of climbing moves, that's all that increasing his chest size and strength is going to do.


onceahardman


Sep 18, 2009, 3:34 PM
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reno wrote:
mr.tastycakes wrote:
In reply to:
No. The climber with better technique and greater muscle endurance will climb harder.

By giving our hypothetical climbers differing levels of technique and endurance, you're not holding all other things equal.

It doesn't matter... there is still no data to indicate that a "stronger" climber (whatever that means, but in the context of this thread, it means someone who lifts weights and does squats) will be any better.

If that's your position: That a climber who can bench more, or squat more, or curl more, will be better as a rock climber, then please show us the scientific data.

Gosh, reno, I so seldom disagree with you...

There is unlikely to be scientific evidence supporting specific lifts as correlating to improved climbing-ever. But that's not really the point. To me, it's pretty clear that some routes have a degree of strength-dependence, similar to the way some routes have a degree of height-dependence. (Doesn't make it impossible to do the route if short or weak, but rather, more tall or strong people have had success on the route.)


Resistance training, when properly conceived and diligently done, can improve the strength of specific motions. Any disagreement with that? Training campusing is resistance training. Any disagreement?

I have myself strained a hamstring doing a hard heel hook, and I have treated climbers with similar injuries. The treatment? Hamstring strengthening, usually in closed chain, like modified stiff leg deadlifts (once sufficient healing had taken place.) The results? Exact same move later completed without re-injury.

I know it's kind of a case study/anecdotal evidence, but it can happen.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

I don't know how many routes are dependent on hamstring strength, but some are. Squats, and variants thereof, strengthen the hammies. Strong hammies are less likely to strain. Disagree?


theguy


Sep 18, 2009, 3:58 PM
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Re: [onceahardman] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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You might be onto something.

An elite (rather than elitist) climber by the name of Ben Moon includes the following in his power training program:

"...

- Weight Training"








Say it ain't so, Joe!


whipper


Sep 18, 2009, 6:36 PM
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Re: [theguy] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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WOW, JT, you are a tool in this debate. For what its worth, I do lift at least 3 times a week. I am 185#'s, 11% body fat, my bench max is about 260, and can redpoint 5.13 sport and 5.12 trad. No pissing match here, just letting ol JT know that he is not the ultimate authority on the subject. The way he talks I always thought he was stronger, but ONE 13....was it at Jacks Canyon?
I can also manhandle a haul bag around, there is something to be said for having guns on big walls.
I guess I kinda think, Do what you want...


jt512


Sep 18, 2009, 6:54 PM
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Re: [whipper] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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whipper wrote:
WOW, JT, you are a tool in this debate. For what its worth, I do lift at least 3 times a week. I am 185#'s, 11% body fat, my bench max is about 260, and can redpoint 5.13 sport and 5.12 trad.

You seem to have a couple of typos in your profile.

Jay


whipper


Sep 18, 2009, 7:18 PM
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hmmm, your right,
thats no longer my current email, I dont live in Fort Collins any more, and climb harder. Also I would never say in my profile that I climb 5.13, I can and have redpointed that level, but dont onsight it, and dont send one a week.
What sucks is that it should not matter how hard you climb. Knowledge is what we are after on these forums, not physical prowess.
I used to have some respect for your posts, but it seems like you are an elitist bastard with no reason to be one. Glad to know that there are people like you out there who get their jollies buy telling nOOBs how stupid they are. Good thing you found someone to be better than, we all need that.


(This post was edited by whipper on Sep 18, 2009, 7:19 PM)


jt512


Sep 18, 2009, 7:57 PM
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In consecutive posts, whipper wrote:
[1] I am 185#'s, 11% body fat, my bench max is about 260, and can redpoint 5.13 sport and 5.12 trad.

[2] Knowledge is what we are after on these forums, not physical prowess.


johnwesely


Sep 18, 2009, 7:58 PM
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mr.tastycakes wrote:
So you're of the opinion that one can't increase strength without gaining weight?

You can increase strength without gaining weight, but you just might gain weight trying.


whipper


Sep 18, 2009, 8:10 PM
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Yep, I did.
I posted my stats to prove you wrong, which was not that hard to do.
You also asked someone earlier how hard they climbed, implying that you knew better than others because you climbed harder. Does that make me know more than you do (because I am a better climber)? I think not, although on THIS topic, I betcha I do.
I am really starting to think that you are the simplest of all tools...


jt512


Sep 18, 2009, 8:32 PM
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whipper wrote:
Yep, I did.
I posted my stats to prove you wrong, which was not that hard to do.

You didn't "prove me wrong." If you think you did, then post the claim of mine that you think you disproved.

In reply to:
You also asked someone earlier how hard they climbed, implying that you knew better than others because you climbed harder.

Wrong. I asked him how hard he currently climbs because I wanted a benchmark, so in the unlikely event that he is still around here in 6 months, I could ask him what his new level of climbing was, in order to make a rudimentary assessment of how his "training" regiment affected his climbing.

In reply to:
Does that make me know more than you do (because I am a better climber)? I think not, although on THIS topic, I betcha I do.

Well, I think you'd climb harder if you lost 20 lb of useless muscle mass.

In reply to:
I am really starting to think that you are the simplest of all tools...

Well, you post up about how you "disproved" me, and then we'll see exactly who the simplistic thinker is.

Jay


whipper


Sep 18, 2009, 8:54 PM
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WTF....
useless muscle mass???? 20 pounds? I am 6 foot tall, there is no way I could lose 20 pounds and be healthy. You have really no clue, do you?
You implied that lifting would hurt climbing performance, that is just not the case. I am not a body builder, far from it. I am well built.
After looking at your pics, looks like you could loose a little bit of wieght there. Hows your 6 pack coming along? Lifting helps keep me slim, muscle mass burns calories.
Anyone on here who thinks JT's question about how hard the other guy climbed was for a "benchmark" feel free to post up. I call bull shit on that, he didnt ask you to judge his training regiment or make a god damned "rudimentary assesment" of him. I have, however, made one of you, and I concluded that you are an elitist jackass.


jt512


Sep 18, 2009, 9:15 PM
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whipper wrote:
You implied that lifting would hurt climbing performance...

Where, in your opinion, did I imply that "lifting" would hurt climbing performance.

In reply to:
I am well built.


Yuck. Did you actually just write that?

Jay


el_layclimber


Sep 18, 2009, 9:40 PM
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whipper wrote:
WOW, JT, you are a tool in this debate. For what its worth, I do lift at least 3 times a week. I am 185#'s, 11% body fat, my bench max is about 260, and can redpoint 5.13 sport and 5.12 trad. No pissing match here, just letting ol JT know that he is not the ultimate authority on the subject. The way he talks I always thought he was stronger, but ONE 13....was it at Jacks Canyon?
I can also manhandle a haul bag around, there is something to be said for having guns on big walls.
I guess I kinda think, Do what you want...

Going to make a couple more guesses here:
1. You can hike in and out on a back country route with a rope and a rack and still have enough in the tank to pull a few hard pitches.
2. You are interested in general fitness, and can see the value in being able to do things other than climb. You could also play a game of b-ball or some soccer without getting spanked if you felt like it.

Sorry, but you missed some rules for the weights v. pulling down battle royale: A) We only care about climbing. B) If you have anecdotal evidence, we will demand scientific proof. BUT we will all point out that climbing is sooooo complex that you can't possibly do a controlled study of it. C) only three or four people are allowed to give training advice. D) Certain folks will be total dicks for about 20 posts, tell you you don't make sense, then start backpedaling.


aerili


Sep 18, 2009, 11:19 PM
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scion wrote:
aerili wrote:
you're born with all the brain cells you'll have
Actually, no, but please don't let that interrupt the beat-down. This is entertaining!

Well, I'm aware that there's some evidence that neural tissue regenerates after certain brain traumas (like stroke, etc.), and the only other evidence I'm aware of is brain cell growth in the hippocampus, which, let's face it, won't help TerminalVelocity with his higher thought process deficits.

P.S. Fwiw, I read that the research methodology for measuring the age of nerve cells is extremely complicated, especially in man, and gives unreliable and controversial results.


aerili


Sep 18, 2009, 11:52 PM
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MS1 wrote:
Dude, if you want to be big and climb a little less hard, fine by me. What people are reacting to is your incredulity that doing squats could limit your climbing performance.

C'mon people, 2-4 sets of squats a week is NOT going to weigh you down and hold you back in your climbing progress. Get real. The OP has repeatedly stated he is not talking about deadlifting 450 pounds 2 or 3 times a week. He has also stated his goals clearly and they are not all wired toward just climbing.

Who has any data or even a freakin anecdotal story that a few sets of moderate-weight squats/other lower body weight training every week has kept them a 5.10 gym climber for life??!

If you have ongoing knee injuries/issues, I would even hedge a bet some squats might help your climbing when it comes to knee pain and function during certain moves.

There is no one optimal amount of muscle mass for all individuals; ergo, climbers like Tony Yaniro vs climbers like Dave Graham.


jt512


Sep 19, 2009, 4:55 AM
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aerili wrote:
MS1 wrote:
Dude, if you want to be big and climb a little less hard, fine by me. What people are reacting to is your incredulity that doing squats could limit your climbing performance.

C'mon people, 2-4 sets of squats a week is NOT going to weigh you down and hold you back in your climbing progress. Get real. The OP has repeatedly stated he is not talking about deadlifting 450 pounds 2 or 3 times a week. He has also stated his goals clearly and they are not all wired toward just climbing.

Who has any data or even a freakin anecdotal story that a few sets of moderate-weight squats/other lower body weight training every week has kept them a 5.10 gym climber for life??!

If you have ongoing knee injuries/issues, I would even hedge a bet some squats might help your climbing when it comes to knee pain and function during certain moves.

There is no one optimal amount of muscle mass for all individuals; ergo, climbers like Tony Yaniro vs climbers like Dave Graham.

The OP wants to "bulk up." He has implied that he wants to gain 4 lb, just in his chest, and wants to be "balanced." How much mass in his legs will he have to gain to "balance" the four pounds of chest mass? Conservatively, 8 lb? So that's 12 lb right there. Yes, that is going to hinder his climbing. Like someone else said, if he doesn't believe that, he should just try strapping the weight on now, and see how it goes.

Jay


jt512


Sep 19, 2009, 5:05 AM
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onceahardman wrote:
I have myself strained a hamstring doing a hard heel hook, and I have treated climbers with similar injuries. The treatment? Hamstring strengthening, usually in closed chain, like modified stiff leg deadlifts (once sufficient healing had taken place.) The results? Exact same move later completed without re-injury.

Not a very compelling argument. "A" happened. Did "B". "A" didn't happen again. Therefore, lack of "B" caused "A".

Jay


johnwesely


Sep 19, 2009, 7:03 AM
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whipper wrote:
WTF....
useless muscle mass???? 20 pounds? I am 6 foot tall, there is no way I could lose 20 pounds and be healthy.

I am six foot three and somewhere between 150 and 160 pounds and I do alright.


jt512


Sep 19, 2009, 7:13 AM
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johnwesely wrote:
whipper wrote:
WTF....
useless muscle mass???? 20 pounds? I am 6 foot tall, there is no way I could lose 20 pounds and be healthy.

I am six foot three and somewhere between 150 and 160 pounds and I do alright.

You have to understand that to a weight lifter, weight lifting is like a religion. If you question a weight lifter's cherished beliefs, they react emotionally. I have no idea how such a mind-numbingly boring activity can become a religion, but then again, religion itself is mind numbing, so perhaps I shouldn't be surprised.

Jay


TerminalVelocity


Sep 19, 2009, 8:45 AM
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whipper wrote:
WOW, JT, you are a tool in this debate. For what its worth, I do lift at least 3 times a week. I am 185#'s, 11% body fat, my bench max is about 260, and can redpoint 5.13 sport and 5.12 trad. No pissing match here, just letting ol JT know that he is not the ultimate authority on the subject. The way he talks I always thought he was stronger, but ONE 13....was it at Jacks Canyon?
I can also manhandle a haul bag around, there is something to be said for having guns on big walls.
I guess I kinda think, Do what you want...

How do you get your bench max about 260? It's either that you've done it or not.


nivlac


Sep 19, 2009, 9:03 AM
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mr.tastycakes wrote:
I've never said strength training will improve your climbing. I'm interested in examining the reasons why some people believe it will be detrimental.

I've got no data to support my positions; actually, I don't have a position on this topic. I'm just interested in the basis of others' beliefs.

Any gymnasts on this thread or this site or anyone with knowledge related to that? I watch gymnasts with varying amounts of awe doing pommel horse, rings and the floor routine and think how applicable those movements are to climbing.

Does anyone know if gymnasts do any specific weight (strength) training? Even if they don't do weights, they definitely engage in strength training designed to improve their ability to perform difficult and complex movements that look applicable to climbing and gymnastics is definitely a gravity specific sport, much like climbing.

Gymnasts perform exercises where forearm and grip strength are paramount, yet also need good core strength etc. Wouldn't it seem reasonable to draw comparisons here? Wasn't Gill a former gymnast (meaning good gymnasts have the training to be very good climbers)?


scion


Sep 19, 2009, 10:11 AM
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aerili wrote:
Well, I'm aware that there's some evidence that neural tissue regenerates after certain brain traumas (like stroke, etc.), and the only other evidence I'm aware of is brain cell growth in the hippocampus, which, let's face it, won't help TerminalVelocity with his higher thought process deficits.

P.S. Fwiw, I read that the research methodology for measuring the age of nerve cells is extremely complicated, especially in man, and gives unreliable and controversial results.
Neurogenesis isn't limited to the hippocampus nor just as a result of trauma. That research was only tangentially related to mine, so I was never very up on it, but figuring out which types of exercise stimulated the most neurogenesis seemed to be a guaranteed high-level publication maybe ten years ago.

It is true that there were some ethical complications with getting a definitive answer in humans, but those were pretty well obviated by a group of people who were given BrDU as part of some sort of medical therapy. When they died and their brains could be sectioned and stained it pretty much put the issue to rest even for those last few who were holding out on the basis of human exceptionalism. I could dig up the paper for you if you're interested. I think it came out in Science in maybe 1997 or 1998.


suprasoup


Sep 19, 2009, 10:19 AM
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nivlac wrote:
mr.tastycakes wrote:
I've never said strength training will improve your climbing. I'm interested in examining the reasons why some people believe it will be detrimental.

I've got no data to support my positions; actually, I don't have a position on this topic. I'm just interested in the basis of others' beliefs.

Any gymnasts on this thread or this site or anyone with knowledge related to that? I watch gymnasts with varying amounts of awe doing pommel horse, rings and the floor routine and think how applicable those movements are to climbing.

Does anyone know if gymnasts do any specific weight (strength) training? Even if they don't do weights, they definitely engage in strength training designed to improve their ability to perform difficult and complex movements that look applicable to climbing and gymnastics is definitely a gravity specific sport, much like climbing.

Gymnasts perform exercises where forearm and grip strength are paramount, yet also need good core strength etc. Wouldn't it seem reasonable to draw comparisons here? Wasn't Gill a former gymnast (meaning good gymnasts have the training to be very good climbers)?

Not gonna call myself a gymnast by any means, but I did do gymnastics when I was younger and was trained at Gold Cup Gymnastics in Albuquerque. The core of the workouts done by high level gymnasts (again my own personal experience watching, training and being trained by guys like Trent Dimas on a day to day basis) was body weight. (if you've ever attempted a planche pushup, iron cross, or front lever pullup you'll understand VERY quickly why) Off days they'd do general strength training: bench press, squats, etc. So I'm guessing 80-90% of their training is sport specific the other 10ish% is strength training to shore up weaknesses in individual gymnasts.
I "believe" that the training I received as a gymnast has allowed me to be the climber I am today. Anyone that has ever seen me climb knows that technique takes a backseat to my strength.


(This post was edited by suprasoup on Sep 19, 2009, 10:30 AM)


TerminalVelocity


Sep 19, 2009, 10:28 AM
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aerili wrote:
scion wrote:
aerili wrote:
you're born with all the brain cells you'll have
Actually, no, but please don't let that interrupt the beat-down. This is entertaining!

Well, I'm aware that there's some evidence that neural tissue regenerates after certain brain traumas (like stroke, etc.), and the only other evidence I'm aware of is brain cell growth in the hippocampus, which, let's face it, won't help TerminalVelocity with his higher thought process deficits.

P.S. Fwiw, I read that the research methodology for measuring the age of nerve cells is extremely complicated, especially in man, and gives unreliable and controversial results.

I see your thought process is at an extremely high level, copying those readings takes years of analyzing and reasearch.


suprasoup


Sep 19, 2009, 10:29 AM
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scion wrote:
aerili wrote:
Well, I'm aware that there's some evidence that neural tissue regenerates after certain brain traumas (like stroke, etc.), and the only other evidence I'm aware of is brain cell growth in the hippocampus, which, let's face it, won't help TerminalVelocity with his higher thought process deficits.

P.S. Fwiw, I read that the research methodology for measuring the age of nerve cells is extremely complicated, especially in man, and gives unreliable and controversial results.
Neurogenesis isn't limited to the hippocampus nor just as a result of trauma. That research was only tangentially related to mine, so I was never very up on it, but figuring out which types of exercise stimulated the most neurogenesis seemed to be a guaranteed high-level publication maybe ten years ago.

It is true that there were some ethical complications with getting a definitive answer in humans, but those were pretty well obviated by a group of people who were given BrDU as part of some sort of medical therapy. When they died and their brains could be sectioned and stained it pretty much put the issue to rest even for those last few who were holding out on the basis of human exceptionalism. I could dig up the paper for you if you're interested. I think it came out in Science in maybe 1997 or 1998.

I'd be interested in reading it if ya don't mind.


nivlac


Sep 19, 2009, 10:29 AM
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That indirectly proves the point being made in this thread, no? That strength training is necessary to high performance in climbing-related activity. Or seems to be necessary.

Sorry that wasn't very scientific or a well-designed clinically robust double-blind study, but that's the best I can do on the interweb.

Any other gymnast types?


jumpmedialtd


Sep 19, 2009, 10:35 AM
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Another vote for Crossfit. Can't be beat for getting stronger. Isolation work for tris or chest will just create different imbalances. I'm in best shape of my life at age 46. I don't climb as much as I'd like, but it has definitely helped my climbing as well.


onceahardman


Sep 19, 2009, 10:36 AM
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jt512 wrote:
onceahardman wrote:
I have myself strained a hamstring doing a hard heel hook, and I have treated climbers with similar injuries. The treatment? Hamstring strengthening, usually in closed chain, like modified stiff leg deadlifts (once sufficient healing had taken place.) The results? Exact same move later completed without re-injury.

Not a very compelling argument. "A" happened. Did "B". "A" didn't happen again. Therefore, lack of "B" caused "A".

Jay

Wow. I thought I spelled out the limitations, being a case study and all, but it is at the minimum, plausible that strength training of hamstrings limits hamstring strains.


Lets examine your "A" and "B" a little...

A man has angina (A) He has a stent put in (B), now, he no longer has angina. Compelling, or not?

A climber continually fails on a difficult route (A). He reads and implements the ideas in Self Coached Climber (B). Then he sends the route. Compelling? Apparently not.

If you are not aware of research into strengthening to prevent injury of hamstrings in athletes, perhaps you should get caught up.

If you think strength is never a factor on any climb, well, maybe consider that people climbing 2 full number grades higher than you disagree.

Don't get me wrong. Movement training dominates strength training in climbing. But strengthening is a non-zero factor.


suprasoup


Sep 19, 2009, 10:43 AM
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nivlac wrote:
That indirectly proves the point being made in this thread, no? That strength training is necessary to high performance in climbing-related activity. Or seems to be necessary.

Sorry that wasn't very scientific or a well-designed clinically robust double-blind study, but that's the best I can do on the interweb.

Any other gymnast types?

From my own experience with other high level gymnasts, climbers, bboys strength training, in some form or other, was incorporated to improve their performance in their sport. All anecdotal of course. I'd listen to Aerili if you want more than that. I'm too lazy to read up on all the current literature regarding these things.


(This post was edited by suprasoup on Sep 19, 2009, 10:47 AM)


johnwesely


Sep 19, 2009, 10:51 AM
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onceahardman wrote:

Don't get me wrong. Movement training dominates strength training in climbing. But strengthening is a non-zero factor.

I don't think anyone would venture to say strength training worthless for climbing because that is asinine. The argument is weather training with weights will positively or negatively affect climbing ability.


zeke_sf


Sep 19, 2009, 11:07 AM
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johnwesely wrote:
whipper wrote:
WTF....
useless muscle mass???? 20 pounds? I am 6 foot tall, there is no way I could lose 20 pounds and be healthy.

I am six foot three and somewhere between 150 and 160 pounds and I do alright.

Damn, skinny! I'm 6 foot and 170 lbs, although when I did more weights and running I was between 180-185 lbs. Less weights, more roadbiking, and climbing seem to get me to 170lbs, but I'm pretty sure it all depends on your frame. I think I could hover around 165 if I cut out more of the fun in my life, but any lighter than that and I would start looking emaciated. Even at 10-15 lighter, I still feel like a monster man in a land of napoleon climber dudes.


onceahardman


Sep 19, 2009, 11:14 AM
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In reply to:
I don't think anyone would venture to say strength training worthless for climbing because that is asinine. The argument is weather training with weights will positively or negatively affect climbing ability.

So, then, if you use an iron weight, or a resistance band, to provide load to a specific muscle in a specific direction, that will somehow have a negative effect, but if you use body weight to load the same muscle in the same direction, that will have a postive effect? Is that really the argument?


zeke_sf


Sep 19, 2009, 11:18 AM
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TerminalVelocity wrote:
aerili wrote:
scion wrote:
aerili wrote:
you're born with all the brain cells you'll have
Actually, no, but please don't let that interrupt the beat-down. This is entertaining!

Well, I'm aware that there's some evidence that neural tissue regenerates after certain brain traumas (like stroke, etc.), and the only other evidence I'm aware of is brain cell growth in the hippocampus, which, let's face it, won't help TerminalVelocity with his higher thought process deficits.

P.S. Fwiw, I read that the research methodology for measuring the age of nerve cells is extremely complicated, especially in man, and gives unreliable and controversial results.

I see your thought process is at an extremely high level, copying those readings takes years of analyzing and reasearch.

She actually uses those readings in her profession, whereas you've contributed diddley squat to back up your claims. She's not a man so she doesn't know about man muscle? Does a horse trainer have to be a horse? You look dumber with every post, but I'm sure you're just a gumby ass climber excited to pose as an authority on a subject he finally thinks he knows something about.


jt512


Sep 19, 2009, 11:24 AM
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onceahardman wrote:
jt512 wrote:
onceahardman wrote:
I have myself strained a hamstring doing a hard heel hook, and I have treated climbers with similar injuries. The treatment? Hamstring strengthening, usually in closed chain, like modified stiff leg deadlifts (once sufficient healing had taken place.) The results? Exact same move later completed without re-injury.

Not a very compelling argument. "A" happened. Did "B". "A" didn't happen again. Therefore, lack of "B" caused "A".

Jay

Wow. I thought I spelled out the limitations, being a case study and all, but it is at the minimum, plausible that strength training of hamstrings limits hamstring strains.

Yes, it's plausible. I've always attributed muscle strains to insufficient warming up.

Jay


reno


Sep 19, 2009, 11:30 AM
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onceahardman wrote:
Lets examine your "A" and "B" a little...

A man has angina (A) He has a stent put in (B), now, he no longer has angina. Compelling, or not?

It's troubling that I find myself in agreement with JT, but on this issue, I don't think your angina analogy holds water.

The lack of a stent didn't CAUSE the angina. Coronary artery blockage (or vasospasm, in the case of Printzmetal's) led to myocardial hypoxia, and that hypoxia caused the angina. THe stent may have relieved the blockage, and by poxy relieved the angina, but that's a different issue.

Using that same analogy to the one about lifting weights to be a better climber, we could say that just placing a stent in the RCA, LAD, and Circumflex would prevent everyone from getting angina to begin with... and that ain't quite true, either.


jt512


Sep 19, 2009, 11:30 AM
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onceahardman wrote:
jt512 wrote:
onceahardman wrote:
I have myself strained a hamstring doing a hard heel hook, and I have treated climbers with similar injuries. The treatment? Hamstring strengthening, usually in closed chain, like modified stiff leg deadlifts (once sufficient healing had taken place.) The results? Exact same move later completed without re-injury.

Not a very compelling argument. "A" happened. Did "B". "A" didn't happen again. Therefore, lack of "B" caused "A".

Jay

Wow. I thought I spelled out the limitations, being a case study and all, but it is at the minimum, plausible that strength training of hamstrings limits hamstring strains.


Lets examine your "A" and "B" a little...

A man has angina (A) He has a stent put in (B), now, he no longer has angina. Compelling, or not?

A climber continually fails on a difficult route (A). He reads and implements the ideas in Self Coached Climber (B). Then he sends the route. Compelling? Apparently not.

A climber pulls a hamstring. Rests for two weeks. Does no strength training, repeats the move, and doesn't pull a hamstring. Compelling or not?

A man has cancer. Prays to god. Cancer goes into remission. Compelling or not?

In reply to:
If you are not aware of research into strengthening to prevent injury of hamstrings in athletes, perhaps you should get caught up.

If you are aware of such research, why didn't you post it, instead of anecdotes, which are meaningless, as you can see from the above.

Jay


jt512


Sep 19, 2009, 11:33 AM
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reno wrote:
It's troubling that I find myself in agreement with JT, but on this issue, I don't think your angina analogy holds water.

Troubled? You should be ecstatic!

Jay


aerili


Sep 19, 2009, 12:12 PM
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jt512 wrote:
The OP wants to "bulk up." He has implied that he wants to gain 4 lb, just in his chest, and wants to be "balanced." How much mass in his legs will he have to gain to "balance" the four pounds of chest mass? Conservatively, 8 lb? So that's 12 lb right there. Yes, that is going to hinder his climbing. Like someone else said, if he doesn't believe that, he should just try strapping the weight on now, and see how it goes.

Jay

Tactix wrote:
I'm not looking to gain massive muscle or weight.


I think the OP is overestimating how much effort it would take to gain 4 lbs of lean mass alone in his chest (and what this would look like); I doubt it will happen.

But regardless, since you don't know the current size of his legs, either, there is no way to estimate how much weight he would have to add there to be "balanced" (whatever that means, it's totally subjective and there's no way to measure it, especially ahead of the fact).

Not to mention, Jay, that it is ridiculous to compare strapping on weights outside your body as being the equivalent to moving with the same poundage of extra lean mass. The way the body functions in both cases is totally not the same. This analogy would be far more applicable to adding fat weight--which doesn't do much of anything.


aerili


Sep 19, 2009, 12:20 PM
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Re: [jt512] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
onceahardman wrote:
jt512 wrote:
onceahardman wrote:
I have myself strained a hamstring doing a hard heel hook, and I have treated climbers with similar injuries. The treatment? Hamstring strengthening, usually in closed chain, like modified stiff leg deadlifts (once sufficient healing had taken place.) The results? Exact same move later completed without re-injury.

Not a very compelling argument. "A" happened. Did "B". "A" didn't happen again. Therefore, lack of "B" caused "A".

Jay

Wow. I thought I spelled out the limitations, being a case study and all, but it is at the minimum, plausible that strength training of hamstrings limits hamstring strains.

Yes, it's plausible. I've always attributed muscle strains to insufficient warming up.

Jay

Most muscle strains involve some degree of weakness in the muscle in question. If rest alone really had a statistically significant likelihood of resolving the issue, then PTs would be doing a lot less business.


jt512


Sep 19, 2009, 12:30 PM
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Re: [aerili] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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aerili wrote:
jt512 wrote:
The OP wants to "bulk up." He has implied that he wants to gain 4 lb, just in his chest, and wants to be "balanced." How much mass in his legs will he have to gain to "balance" the four pounds of chest mass? Conservatively, 8 lb? So that's 12 lb right there. Yes, that is going to hinder his climbing. Like someone else said, if he doesn't believe that, he should just try strapping the weight on now, and see how it goes.

Jay

Tactix wrote:
I'm not looking to gain massive muscle or weight.


I think the OP is overestimating how much effort it would take to gain 4 lbs of lean mass alone in his chest (and what this would look like); I doubt it will happen.

But regardless, since you don't know the current size of his legs, either, there is no way to estimate how much weight he would have to add there to be "balanced" (whatever that means, it's totally subjective and there's no way to measure it, especially ahead of the fact).

Not to mention, Jay, that it is ridiculous to compare strapping on weights outside your body as being the equivalent to moving with the same poundage of extra lean mass. The way the body functions in both cases is totally not the same. This analogy would be far more applicable to adding fat weight--which doesn't do much of anything.

Weight gained by bench pressing and squats isn't going be terribly useful for climbing. Strapping on weights is a good first approximation.

Jay


whipper


Sep 19, 2009, 12:54 PM
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Re: [jt512] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
Tactix23 wrote:
TerminalVelocity wrote:
Your weight and lifting abilities would help to give you advice on chest and tri workouts. Also skip all the squats and that shit. Instead kill two birds with one stone. Do a true nordic ski machine with the incline high, to develop your leg size and strength while also improving cardio and leg endurance.

Squats, when done properly, are one of the best exercises you can do. It works your entire body. It also gives you great core strength (balance 300 pounds on your shoulders?) which is very applicable to climbing.

It would be stupid of me not to do squats. Unless I had a bad back or a bad knee problem

Or unless you wanted to become a good rock climber.

Jay

Right there Jay.
Yes, I did say that I am well built because, I am.
Sorry to seem cocky on that one, I really am not cocky, but I am not going to say I am a lard ass, now am I.
Terminal...its about 260 because I rarely max out, but when I am doing heavy weight days I do 3 sets of 4 reps with 235#s, so I would think that 260 is conservative.
Cross fit is also the bomb, so is anything that gets you strong. Why do people think that their way is the best way, being fit is my key to a good healthy life. Any way you go about it is great, I love to see people taking care of their bodies.
Also Jay, one of the keys to putting on chest size is working the shoulders. Shoulders are very prone to injury when you get to the higher grades, think overhanging gastons. I say keep your flexibility in them, but pack on as much muscle around them as you can. 4 pounds of muscle is not dead weight, so its not like strapping iron around your waist, do you really believe that, or are you just spouting random BS?
6'3" and 160 is fine if it works for you, I am not built that way. I think its all great, we are all different people here. What works for some doesnt for others, I am going to hit the gym now.


jt512


Sep 19, 2009, 1:01 PM
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Re: [whipper] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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whipper wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Tactix23 wrote:
TerminalVelocity wrote:
Your weight and lifting abilities would help to give you advice on chest and tri workouts. Also skip all the squats and that shit. Instead kill two birds with one stone. Do a true nordic ski machine with the incline high, to develop your leg size and strength while also improving cardio and leg endurance.

Squats, when done properly, are one of the best exercises you can do. It works your entire body. It also gives you great core strength (balance 300 pounds on your shoulders?) which is very applicable to climbing.

It would be stupid of me not to do squats. Unless I had a bad back or a bad knee problem

Or unless you wanted to become a good rock climber.

Jay

Right there Jay.
Yes, I did say that I am well built because, I am.
Sorry to seem cocky on that one...

Oh, you didn't seem "cocky."

Jay


altelis


Sep 19, 2009, 1:23 PM
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Re: [whipper] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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whipper wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Tactix23 wrote:
TerminalVelocity wrote:
Your weight and lifting abilities would help to give you advice on chest and tri workouts. Also skip all the squats and that shit. Instead kill two birds with one stone. Do a true nordic ski machine with the incline high, to develop your leg size and strength while also improving cardio and leg endurance.

Squats, when done properly, are one of the best exercises you can do. It works your entire body. It also gives you great core strength (balance 300 pounds on your shoulders?) which is very applicable to climbing.

It would be stupid of me not to do squats. Unless I had a bad back or a bad knee problem

Or unless you wanted to become a good rock climber.

Jay

Right there Jay.
Yes, I did say that I am well built because, I am.
Sorry to seem cocky on that one, I really am not cocky, but I am not going to say I am a lard ass, now am I.
Terminal...its about 260 because I rarely max out, but when I am doing heavy weight days I do 3 sets of 4 reps with 235#s, so I would think that 260 is conservative.
Cross fit is also the bomb, so is anything that gets you strong. Why do people think that their way is the best way, being fit is my key to a good healthy life. Any way you go about it is great, I love to see people taking care of their bodies.
Also Jay, one of the keys to putting on chest size is working the shoulders. Shoulders are very prone to injury when you get to the higher grades, think overhanging gastons. I say keep your flexibility in them, but pack on as much muscle around them as you can. 4 pounds of muscle is not dead weight, so its not like strapping iron around your waist, do you really believe that, or are you just spouting random BS?
6'3" and 160 is fine if it works for you, I am not built that way. I think its all great, we are all different people here. What works for some doesnt for others, I am going to hit the gym now.

I'm not exactly sure what kind of "shoulder" injury you are referring to, but at least as far as I know a strong "chest" isn't really going to help. Especially in gaston type moves. Now, I just want to clarify that when people mention "strengthening your chest" they seem to mean "pecs", so that's what I'm working with here.

I would think that other muscle groups (like the rotator cuff muscles- and yes, I know one of them IS in your chest.....) would be more appropriate for staving off shoulder problems while climbing.

All that said, I don't know for sure. Think of this as a legitimate question in the form of a statement rather than me picking a fight. "Cause it really is just that. Maybe OAH or aerilli can help on this one.


And speaking of aerilli- I can't help but be anal retentive here....BUT neurons and brain cells are most DEFINITELY not the same thing. While the question of can we regrow/grow neurons during our life may or may not be a sticky subject, there is NO doubt that we do grow brain cells during our life. Don't forget the VAST majority of cells in our brain are glial cells, which have clear stem cell populations and have been pretty clearly demonstrated to repopulate our brains with new cells. True, these aren't neurons, but also true is you didn't specify....Wink


johnwesely


Sep 19, 2009, 1:58 PM
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Re: [onceahardman] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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onceahardman wrote:
In reply to:
I don't think anyone would venture to say strength training worthless for climbing because that is asinine. The argument is weather training with weights will positively or negatively affect climbing ability.

So, then, if you use an iron weight, or a resistance band, to provide load to a specific muscle in a specific direction, that will somehow have a negative effect, but if you use body weight to load the same muscle in the same direction, that will have a postive effect? Is that really the argument?

I really don't know any free weight exercises outside of the obvious ones, but none of the ones I know really mimic climbing.


onceahardman


Sep 19, 2009, 2:12 PM
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Re: [altelis] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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altelis wrote:
whipper wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Tactix23 wrote:
TerminalVelocity wrote:
Your weight and lifting abilities would help to give you advice on chest and tri workouts. Also skip all the squats and that shit. Instead kill two birds with one stone. Do a true nordic ski machine with the incline high, to develop your leg size and strength while also improving cardio and leg endurance.

Squats, when done properly, are one of the best exercises you can do. It works your entire body. It also gives you great core strength (balance 300 pounds on your shoulders?) which is very applicable to climbing.

It would be stupid of me not to do squats. Unless I had a bad back or a bad knee problem

Or unless you wanted to become a good rock climber.

Jay

Right there Jay.
Yes, I did say that I am well built because, I am.
Sorry to seem cocky on that one, I really am not cocky, but I am not going to say I am a lard ass, now am I.
Terminal...its about 260 because I rarely max out, but when I am doing heavy weight days I do 3 sets of 4 reps with 235#s, so I would think that 260 is conservative.
Cross fit is also the bomb, so is anything that gets you strong. Why do people think that their way is the best way, being fit is my key to a good healthy life. Any way you go about it is great, I love to see people taking care of their bodies.
Also Jay, one of the keys to putting on chest size is working the shoulders. Shoulders are very prone to injury when you get to the higher grades, think overhanging gastons. I say keep your flexibility in them, but pack on as much muscle around them as you can. 4 pounds of muscle is not dead weight, so its not like strapping iron around your waist, do you really believe that, or are you just spouting random BS?
6'3" and 160 is fine if it works for you, I am not built that way. I think its all great, we are all different people here. What works for some doesnt for others, I am going to hit the gym now.

I'm not exactly sure what kind of "shoulder" injury you are referring to, but at least as far as I know a strong "chest" isn't really going to help. Especially in gaston type moves. Now, I just want to clarify that when people mention "strengthening your chest" they seem to mean "pecs", so that's what I'm working with here.

I would think that other muscle groups (like the rotator cuff muscles- and yes, I know one of them IS in your chest.....) would be more appropriate for staving off shoulder problems while climbing.

All that said, I don't know for sure. Think of this as a legitimate question in the form of a statement rather than me picking a fight. "Cause it really is just that. Maybe OAH or aerilli can help on this one.


And speaking of aerilli- I can't help but be anal retentive here....BUT neurons and brain cells are most DEFINITELY not the same thing. While the question of can we regrow/grow neurons during our life may or may not be a sticky subject, there is NO doubt that we do grow brain cells during our life. Don't forget the VAST majority of cells in our brain are glial cells, which have clear stem cell populations and have been pretty clearly demonstrated to repopulate our brains with new cells. True, these aren't neurons, but also true is you didn't specify....Wink

Hmmm...a rotator cuff muscle in the chest?


onceahardman


Sep 19, 2009, 2:16 PM
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Re: [jt512] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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In reply to:
Weight gained by bench pressing and squats isn't going be terribly useful for climbing. Strapping on weights is a good first approximation.

Do you have any supporting evidence, or, as usual, should we just believe you because you report to climb 2 1/2 number grades below world-class?


(This post was edited by onceahardman on Sep 19, 2009, 2:17 PM)


altelis


Sep 19, 2009, 2:21 PM
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Re: [onceahardman] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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well, subscapularis is just deep to pectoralis major, eh? though due to how deep it is i suppose back is a better description....

my thought on calling it a chest muscle is that it is visualized from an anterior view as opposed to a posterior view, and in terms of its position on the rostral/caudal axis being just about the same as pec major (the archetypical "chest" muscle) i thought that some smart-ass would call it a chest muscle so i tried to beat them to it, so to speak....


also, anatomy text books teach it as a shoulder muscle (of course). but then pec major is listed as a shoulder muscle, which is why i started my last post with all those quotes.....

all that said, what's your opinion of strengthening pec major in an effort to prevent shoulder injury from gaston type movements vs more directed strengthening of the rotator cuff?


onceahardman


Sep 19, 2009, 2:28 PM
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Re: [altelis] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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In reply to:
well, subscapularis is just deep to pectoralis major, eh? though due to how deep it is i suppose back is a better description....

If you dissect pectoralis major, you will not find subscapularis underneath, unless you are thinking about the orientation of their respective tendons as they relate to the humeral attachments. The muscle belly of subscapularis is pretty clearly a dorsal structure, while the muscle belly of pec major is ventral.


altelis


Sep 19, 2009, 2:33 PM
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Re: [onceahardman] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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my bad. i was ambiguous about the muscle belly and the insertion tendon. i was trying to be a smart-ass to a as-of-yet-not-voiced-silly-response to my post. i could just picture some one somewhere saying it was on the ventral aspect of the scapula so it would be in the chest....

i was being not clear and not funny at the same time.


all that said, i feel like my original (though obviously lost point) is further backed up. somebody (who i've now forgotten, though it doesn't matter who) stated that working out your chest would help to reduce shoulder injury from moves like a gaston. i was trying to say that i thought one's time would be better spent working out other muscle groups. what say you to that?


ClimbClimb


Sep 19, 2009, 2:48 PM
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Re: [altelis] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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I both lift & climb. They can get in the way with each other sometimes. But it's worth trying to make time for both. Be careful with doing a lot of pullups, chinups or dips after climbing, for exaple.

But then again, I'm not an adherent to the "great climbers are stick figures", "do not have a lot of bulk", "it's not about strength" school of thought -- and my observations suggest the opposite. Namely, being muscular, especially upper body, abs & back, is strongly correlated with climbing performance.


jt512


Sep 19, 2009, 2:49 PM
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Re: [onceahardman] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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onceahardman wrote:
In reply to:
Weight gained by bench pressing and squats isn't going be terribly useful for climbing. Strapping on weights is a good first approximation.

Do you have any supporting evidence, or, as usual, should we just believe you because you report to climb 2 1/2 number grades below world-class?

Sorry. That study hasn't been done. Just have to rely on logic and experience.

Jay


whipper


Sep 19, 2009, 3:38 PM
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I think thats what we are all waiting on, Jay, is for you to rely on logic.


onceahardman


Sep 19, 2009, 5:03 PM
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Re: [altelis] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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yeah, I agree. I think that with all the back-intensive training climbers tend to get (through resistance training things like lock offs and fingerboards) that doing a bit of balancing might well keep shoulders healthy, though.

Tons of rotator cuff, too.


onceahardman


Sep 19, 2009, 5:08 PM
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