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suprasoup


Sep 19, 2009, 10:19 AM
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Re: [nivlac] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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nivlac wrote:
mr.tastycakes wrote:
I've never said strength training will improve your climbing. I'm interested in examining the reasons why some people believe it will be detrimental.

I've got no data to support my positions; actually, I don't have a position on this topic. I'm just interested in the basis of others' beliefs.

Any gymnasts on this thread or this site or anyone with knowledge related to that? I watch gymnasts with varying amounts of awe doing pommel horse, rings and the floor routine and think how applicable those movements are to climbing.

Does anyone know if gymnasts do any specific weight (strength) training? Even if they don't do weights, they definitely engage in strength training designed to improve their ability to perform difficult and complex movements that look applicable to climbing and gymnastics is definitely a gravity specific sport, much like climbing.

Gymnasts perform exercises where forearm and grip strength are paramount, yet also need good core strength etc. Wouldn't it seem reasonable to draw comparisons here? Wasn't Gill a former gymnast (meaning good gymnasts have the training to be very good climbers)?

Not gonna call myself a gymnast by any means, but I did do gymnastics when I was younger and was trained at Gold Cup Gymnastics in Albuquerque. The core of the workouts done by high level gymnasts (again my own personal experience watching, training and being trained by guys like Trent Dimas on a day to day basis) was body weight. (if you've ever attempted a planche pushup, iron cross, or front lever pullup you'll understand VERY quickly why) Off days they'd do general strength training: bench press, squats, etc. So I'm guessing 80-90% of their training is sport specific the other 10ish% is strength training to shore up weaknesses in individual gymnasts.
I "believe" that the training I received as a gymnast has allowed me to be the climber I am today. Anyone that has ever seen me climb knows that technique takes a backseat to my strength.


(This post was edited by suprasoup on Sep 19, 2009, 10:30 AM)


TerminalVelocity


Sep 19, 2009, 10:28 AM
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Re: [aerili] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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aerili wrote:
scion wrote:
aerili wrote:
you're born with all the brain cells you'll have
Actually, no, but please don't let that interrupt the beat-down. This is entertaining!

Well, I'm aware that there's some evidence that neural tissue regenerates after certain brain traumas (like stroke, etc.), and the only other evidence I'm aware of is brain cell growth in the hippocampus, which, let's face it, won't help TerminalVelocity with his higher thought process deficits.

P.S. Fwiw, I read that the research methodology for measuring the age of nerve cells is extremely complicated, especially in man, and gives unreliable and controversial results.

I see your thought process is at an extremely high level, copying those readings takes years of analyzing and reasearch.


suprasoup


Sep 19, 2009, 10:29 AM
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Re: [scion] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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scion wrote:
aerili wrote:
Well, I'm aware that there's some evidence that neural tissue regenerates after certain brain traumas (like stroke, etc.), and the only other evidence I'm aware of is brain cell growth in the hippocampus, which, let's face it, won't help TerminalVelocity with his higher thought process deficits.

P.S. Fwiw, I read that the research methodology for measuring the age of nerve cells is extremely complicated, especially in man, and gives unreliable and controversial results.
Neurogenesis isn't limited to the hippocampus nor just as a result of trauma. That research was only tangentially related to mine, so I was never very up on it, but figuring out which types of exercise stimulated the most neurogenesis seemed to be a guaranteed high-level publication maybe ten years ago.

It is true that there were some ethical complications with getting a definitive answer in humans, but those were pretty well obviated by a group of people who were given BrDU as part of some sort of medical therapy. When they died and their brains could be sectioned and stained it pretty much put the issue to rest even for those last few who were holding out on the basis of human exceptionalism. I could dig up the paper for you if you're interested. I think it came out in Science in maybe 1997 or 1998.

I'd be interested in reading it if ya don't mind.


nivlac


Sep 19, 2009, 10:29 AM
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That indirectly proves the point being made in this thread, no? That strength training is necessary to high performance in climbing-related activity. Or seems to be necessary.

Sorry that wasn't very scientific or a well-designed clinically robust double-blind study, but that's the best I can do on the interweb.

Any other gymnast types?


jumpmedialtd


Sep 19, 2009, 10:35 AM
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Another vote for Crossfit. Can't be beat for getting stronger. Isolation work for tris or chest will just create different imbalances. I'm in best shape of my life at age 46. I don't climb as much as I'd like, but it has definitely helped my climbing as well.


onceahardman


Sep 19, 2009, 10:36 AM
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Re: [jt512] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
onceahardman wrote:
I have myself strained a hamstring doing a hard heel hook, and I have treated climbers with similar injuries. The treatment? Hamstring strengthening, usually in closed chain, like modified stiff leg deadlifts (once sufficient healing had taken place.) The results? Exact same move later completed without re-injury.

Not a very compelling argument. "A" happened. Did "B". "A" didn't happen again. Therefore, lack of "B" caused "A".

Jay

Wow. I thought I spelled out the limitations, being a case study and all, but it is at the minimum, plausible that strength training of hamstrings limits hamstring strains.


Lets examine your "A" and "B" a little...

A man has angina (A) He has a stent put in (B), now, he no longer has angina. Compelling, or not?

A climber continually fails on a difficult route (A). He reads and implements the ideas in Self Coached Climber (B). Then he sends the route. Compelling? Apparently not.

If you are not aware of research into strengthening to prevent injury of hamstrings in athletes, perhaps you should get caught up.

If you think strength is never a factor on any climb, well, maybe consider that people climbing 2 full number grades higher than you disagree.

Don't get me wrong. Movement training dominates strength training in climbing. But strengthening is a non-zero factor.


suprasoup


Sep 19, 2009, 10:43 AM
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Re: [nivlac] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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nivlac wrote:
That indirectly proves the point being made in this thread, no? That strength training is necessary to high performance in climbing-related activity. Or seems to be necessary.

Sorry that wasn't very scientific or a well-designed clinically robust double-blind study, but that's the best I can do on the interweb.

Any other gymnast types?

From my own experience with other high level gymnasts, climbers, bboys strength training, in some form or other, was incorporated to improve their performance in their sport. All anecdotal of course. I'd listen to Aerili if you want more than that. I'm too lazy to read up on all the current literature regarding these things.


(This post was edited by suprasoup on Sep 19, 2009, 10:47 AM)


johnwesely


Sep 19, 2009, 10:51 AM
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onceahardman wrote:

Don't get me wrong. Movement training dominates strength training in climbing. But strengthening is a non-zero factor.

I don't think anyone would venture to say strength training worthless for climbing because that is asinine. The argument is weather training with weights will positively or negatively affect climbing ability.


zeke_sf


Sep 19, 2009, 11:07 AM
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johnwesely wrote:
whipper wrote:
WTF....
useless muscle mass???? 20 pounds? I am 6 foot tall, there is no way I could lose 20 pounds and be healthy.

I am six foot three and somewhere between 150 and 160 pounds and I do alright.

Damn, skinny! I'm 6 foot and 170 lbs, although when I did more weights and running I was between 180-185 lbs. Less weights, more roadbiking, and climbing seem to get me to 170lbs, but I'm pretty sure it all depends on your frame. I think I could hover around 165 if I cut out more of the fun in my life, but any lighter than that and I would start looking emaciated. Even at 10-15 lighter, I still feel like a monster man in a land of napoleon climber dudes.


onceahardman


Sep 19, 2009, 11:14 AM
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In reply to:
I don't think anyone would venture to say strength training worthless for climbing because that is asinine. The argument is weather training with weights will positively or negatively affect climbing ability.

So, then, if you use an iron weight, or a resistance band, to provide load to a specific muscle in a specific direction, that will somehow have a negative effect, but if you use body weight to load the same muscle in the same direction, that will have a postive effect? Is that really the argument?


zeke_sf


Sep 19, 2009, 11:18 AM
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Re: [TerminalVelocity] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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TerminalVelocity wrote:
aerili wrote:
scion wrote:
aerili wrote:
you're born with all the brain cells you'll have
Actually, no, but please don't let that interrupt the beat-down. This is entertaining!

Well, I'm aware that there's some evidence that neural tissue regenerates after certain brain traumas (like stroke, etc.), and the only other evidence I'm aware of is brain cell growth in the hippocampus, which, let's face it, won't help TerminalVelocity with his higher thought process deficits.

P.S. Fwiw, I read that the research methodology for measuring the age of nerve cells is extremely complicated, especially in man, and gives unreliable and controversial results.

I see your thought process is at an extremely high level, copying those readings takes years of analyzing and reasearch.

She actually uses those readings in her profession, whereas you've contributed diddley squat to back up your claims. She's not a man so she doesn't know about man muscle? Does a horse trainer have to be a horse? You look dumber with every post, but I'm sure you're just a gumby ass climber excited to pose as an authority on a subject he finally thinks he knows something about.


jt512


Sep 19, 2009, 11:24 AM
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onceahardman wrote:
jt512 wrote:
onceahardman wrote:
I have myself strained a hamstring doing a hard heel hook, and I have treated climbers with similar injuries. The treatment? Hamstring strengthening, usually in closed chain, like modified stiff leg deadlifts (once sufficient healing had taken place.) The results? Exact same move later completed without re-injury.

Not a very compelling argument. "A" happened. Did "B". "A" didn't happen again. Therefore, lack of "B" caused "A".

Jay

Wow. I thought I spelled out the limitations, being a case study and all, but it is at the minimum, plausible that strength training of hamstrings limits hamstring strains.

Yes, it's plausible. I've always attributed muscle strains to insufficient warming up.

Jay


reno


Sep 19, 2009, 11:30 AM
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onceahardman wrote:
Lets examine your "A" and "B" a little...

A man has angina (A) He has a stent put in (B), now, he no longer has angina. Compelling, or not?

It's troubling that I find myself in agreement with JT, but on this issue, I don't think your angina analogy holds water.

The lack of a stent didn't CAUSE the angina. Coronary artery blockage (or vasospasm, in the case of Printzmetal's) led to myocardial hypoxia, and that hypoxia caused the angina. THe stent may have relieved the blockage, and by poxy relieved the angina, but that's a different issue.

Using that same analogy to the one about lifting weights to be a better climber, we could say that just placing a stent in the RCA, LAD, and Circumflex would prevent everyone from getting angina to begin with... and that ain't quite true, either.


jt512


Sep 19, 2009, 11:30 AM
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onceahardman wrote:
jt512 wrote:
onceahardman wrote:
I have myself strained a hamstring doing a hard heel hook, and I have treated climbers with similar injuries. The treatment? Hamstring strengthening, usually in closed chain, like modified stiff leg deadlifts (once sufficient healing had taken place.) The results? Exact same move later completed without re-injury.

Not a very compelling argument. "A" happened. Did "B". "A" didn't happen again. Therefore, lack of "B" caused "A".

Jay

Wow. I thought I spelled out the limitations, being a case study and all, but it is at the minimum, plausible that strength training of hamstrings limits hamstring strains.


Lets examine your "A" and "B" a little...

A man has angina (A) He has a stent put in (B), now, he no longer has angina. Compelling, or not?

A climber continually fails on a difficult route (A). He reads and implements the ideas in Self Coached Climber (B). Then he sends the route. Compelling? Apparently not.

A climber pulls a hamstring. Rests for two weeks. Does no strength training, repeats the move, and doesn't pull a hamstring. Compelling or not?

A man has cancer. Prays to god. Cancer goes into remission. Compelling or not?

In reply to:
If you are not aware of research into strengthening to prevent injury of hamstrings in athletes, perhaps you should get caught up.

If you are aware of such research, why didn't you post it, instead of anecdotes, which are meaningless, as you can see from the above.

Jay


jt512


Sep 19, 2009, 11:33 AM
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Re: [reno] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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reno wrote:
It's troubling that I find myself in agreement with JT, but on this issue, I don't think your angina analogy holds water.

Troubled? You should be ecstatic!

Jay


aerili


Sep 19, 2009, 12:12 PM
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jt512 wrote:
The OP wants to "bulk up." He has implied that he wants to gain 4 lb, just in his chest, and wants to be "balanced." How much mass in his legs will he have to gain to "balance" the four pounds of chest mass? Conservatively, 8 lb? So that's 12 lb right there. Yes, that is going to hinder his climbing. Like someone else said, if he doesn't believe that, he should just try strapping the weight on now, and see how it goes.

Jay

Tactix wrote:
I'm not looking to gain massive muscle or weight.


I think the OP is overestimating how much effort it would take to gain 4 lbs of lean mass alone in his chest (and what this would look like); I doubt it will happen.

But regardless, since you don't know the current size of his legs, either, there is no way to estimate how much weight he would have to add there to be "balanced" (whatever that means, it's totally subjective and there's no way to measure it, especially ahead of the fact).

Not to mention, Jay, that it is ridiculous to compare strapping on weights outside your body as being the equivalent to moving with the same poundage of extra lean mass. The way the body functions in both cases is totally not the same. This analogy would be far more applicable to adding fat weight--which doesn't do much of anything.


aerili


Sep 19, 2009, 12:20 PM
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jt512 wrote:
onceahardman wrote:
jt512 wrote:
onceahardman wrote:
I have myself strained a hamstring doing a hard heel hook, and I have treated climbers with similar injuries. The treatment? Hamstring strengthening, usually in closed chain, like modified stiff leg deadlifts (once sufficient healing had taken place.) The results? Exact same move later completed without re-injury.

Not a very compelling argument. "A" happened. Did "B". "A" didn't happen again. Therefore, lack of "B" caused "A".

Jay

Wow. I thought I spelled out the limitations, being a case study and all, but it is at the minimum, plausible that strength training of hamstrings limits hamstring strains.

Yes, it's plausible. I've always attributed muscle strains to insufficient warming up.

Jay

Most muscle strains involve some degree of weakness in the muscle in question. If rest alone really had a statistically significant likelihood of resolving the issue, then PTs would be doing a lot less business.


jt512


Sep 19, 2009, 12:30 PM
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aerili wrote:
jt512 wrote:
The OP wants to "bulk up." He has implied that he wants to gain 4 lb, just in his chest, and wants to be "balanced." How much mass in his legs will he have to gain to "balance" the four pounds of chest mass? Conservatively, 8 lb? So that's 12 lb right there. Yes, that is going to hinder his climbing. Like someone else said, if he doesn't believe that, he should just try strapping the weight on now, and see how it goes.

Jay

Tactix wrote:
I'm not looking to gain massive muscle or weight.


I think the OP is overestimating how much effort it would take to gain 4 lbs of lean mass alone in his chest (and what this would look like); I doubt it will happen.

But regardless, since you don't know the current size of his legs, either, there is no way to estimate how much weight he would have to add there to be "balanced" (whatever that means, it's totally subjective and there's no way to measure it, especially ahead of the fact).

Not to mention, Jay, that it is ridiculous to compare strapping on weights outside your body as being the equivalent to moving with the same poundage of extra lean mass. The way the body functions in both cases is totally not the same. This analogy would be far more applicable to adding fat weight--which doesn't do much of anything.

Weight gained by bench pressing and squats isn't going be terribly useful for climbing. Strapping on weights is a good first approximation.

Jay


whipper


Sep 19, 2009, 12:54 PM
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jt512 wrote:
Tactix23 wrote:
TerminalVelocity wrote:
Your weight and lifting abilities would help to give you advice on chest and tri workouts. Also skip all the squats and that shit. Instead kill two birds with one stone. Do a true nordic ski machine with the incline high, to develop your leg size and strength while also improving cardio and leg endurance.

Squats, when done properly, are one of the best exercises you can do. It works your entire body. It also gives you great core strength (balance 300 pounds on your shoulders?) which is very applicable to climbing.

It would be stupid of me not to do squats. Unless I had a bad back or a bad knee problem

Or unless you wanted to become a good rock climber.

Jay

Right there Jay.
Yes, I did say that I am well built because, I am.
Sorry to seem cocky on that one, I really am not cocky, but I am not going to say I am a lard ass, now am I.
Terminal...its about 260 because I rarely max out, but when I am doing heavy weight days I do 3 sets of 4 reps with 235#s, so I would think that 260 is conservative.
Cross fit is also the bomb, so is anything that gets you strong. Why do people think that their way is the best way, being fit is my key to a good healthy life. Any way you go about it is great, I love to see people taking care of their bodies.
Also Jay, one of the keys to putting on chest size is working the shoulders. Shoulders are very prone to injury when you get to the higher grades, think overhanging gastons. I say keep your flexibility in them, but pack on as much muscle around them as you can. 4 pounds of muscle is not dead weight, so its not like strapping iron around your waist, do you really believe that, or are you just spouting random BS?
6'3" and 160 is fine if it works for you, I am not built that way. I think its all great, we are all different people here. What works for some doesnt for others, I am going to hit the gym now.


jt512


Sep 19, 2009, 1:01 PM
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whipper wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Tactix23 wrote:
TerminalVelocity wrote:
Your weight and lifting abilities would help to give you advice on chest and tri workouts. Also skip all the squats and that shit. Instead kill two birds with one stone. Do a true nordic ski machine with the incline high, to develop your leg size and strength while also improving cardio and leg endurance.

Squats, when done properly, are one of the best exercises you can do. It works your entire body. It also gives you great core strength (balance 300 pounds on your shoulders?) which is very applicable to climbing.

It would be stupid of me not to do squats. Unless I had a bad back or a bad knee problem

Or unless you wanted to become a good rock climber.

Jay

Right there Jay.
Yes, I did say that I am well built because, I am.
Sorry to seem cocky on that one...

Oh, you didn't seem "cocky."

Jay


altelis


Sep 19, 2009, 1:23 PM
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whipper wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Tactix23 wrote:
TerminalVelocity wrote:
Your weight and lifting abilities would help to give you advice on chest and tri workouts. Also skip all the squats and that shit. Instead kill two birds with one stone. Do a true nordic ski machine with the incline high, to develop your leg size and strength while also improving cardio and leg endurance.

Squats, when done properly, are one of the best exercises you can do. It works your entire body. It also gives you great core strength (balance 300 pounds on your shoulders?) which is very applicable to climbing.

It would be stupid of me not to do squats. Unless I had a bad back or a bad knee problem

Or unless you wanted to become a good rock climber.

Jay

Right there Jay.
Yes, I did say that I am well built because, I am.
Sorry to seem cocky on that one, I really am not cocky, but I am not going to say I am a lard ass, now am I.
Terminal...its about 260 because I rarely max out, but when I am doing heavy weight days I do 3 sets of 4 reps with 235#s, so I would think that 260 is conservative.
Cross fit is also the bomb, so is anything that gets you strong. Why do people think that their way is the best way, being fit is my key to a good healthy life. Any way you go about it is great, I love to see people taking care of their bodies.
Also Jay, one of the keys to putting on chest size is working the shoulders. Shoulders are very prone to injury when you get to the higher grades, think overhanging gastons. I say keep your flexibility in them, but pack on as much muscle around them as you can. 4 pounds of muscle is not dead weight, so its not like strapping iron around your waist, do you really believe that, or are you just spouting random BS?
6'3" and 160 is fine if it works for you, I am not built that way. I think its all great, we are all different people here. What works for some doesnt for others, I am going to hit the gym now.

I'm not exactly sure what kind of "shoulder" injury you are referring to, but at least as far as I know a strong "chest" isn't really going to help. Especially in gaston type moves. Now, I just want to clarify that when people mention "strengthening your chest" they seem to mean "pecs", so that's what I'm working with here.

I would think that other muscle groups (like the rotator cuff muscles- and yes, I know one of them IS in your chest.....) would be more appropriate for staving off shoulder problems while climbing.

All that said, I don't know for sure. Think of this as a legitimate question in the form of a statement rather than me picking a fight. "Cause it really is just that. Maybe OAH or aerilli can help on this one.


And speaking of aerilli- I can't help but be anal retentive here....BUT neurons and brain cells are most DEFINITELY not the same thing. While the question of can we regrow/grow neurons during our life may or may not be a sticky subject, there is NO doubt that we do grow brain cells during our life. Don't forget the VAST majority of cells in our brain are glial cells, which have clear stem cell populations and have been pretty clearly demonstrated to repopulate our brains with new cells. True, these aren't neurons, but also true is you didn't specify....Wink


johnwesely


Sep 19, 2009, 1:58 PM
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onceahardman wrote:
In reply to:
I don't think anyone would venture to say strength training worthless for climbing because that is asinine. The argument is weather training with weights will positively or negatively affect climbing ability.

So, then, if you use an iron weight, or a resistance band, to provide load to a specific muscle in a specific direction, that will somehow have a negative effect, but if you use body weight to load the same muscle in the same direction, that will have a postive effect? Is that really the argument?

I really don't know any free weight exercises outside of the obvious ones, but none of the ones I know really mimic climbing.


onceahardman


Sep 19, 2009, 2:12 PM
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Re: [altelis] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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altelis wrote:
whipper wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Tactix23 wrote:
TerminalVelocity wrote:
Your weight and lifting abilities would help to give you advice on chest and tri workouts. Also skip all the squats and that shit. Instead kill two birds with one stone. Do a true nordic ski machine with the incline high, to develop your leg size and strength while also improving cardio and leg endurance.

Squats, when done properly, are one of the best exercises you can do. It works your entire body. It also gives you great core strength (balance 300 pounds on your shoulders?) which is very applicable to climbing.

It would be stupid of me not to do squats. Unless I had a bad back or a bad knee problem

Or unless you wanted to become a good rock climber.

Jay

Right there Jay.
Yes, I did say that I am well built because, I am.
Sorry to seem cocky on that one, I really am not cocky, but I am not going to say I am a lard ass, now am I.
Terminal...its about 260 because I rarely max out, but when I am doing heavy weight days I do 3 sets of 4 reps with 235#s, so I would think that 260 is conservative.
Cross fit is also the bomb, so is anything that gets you strong. Why do people think that their way is the best way, being fit is my key to a good healthy life. Any way you go about it is great, I love to see people taking care of their bodies.
Also Jay, one of the keys to putting on chest size is working the shoulders. Shoulders are very prone to injury when you get to the higher grades, think overhanging gastons. I say keep your flexibility in them, but pack on as much muscle around them as you can. 4 pounds of muscle is not dead weight, so its not like strapping iron around your waist, do you really believe that, or are you just spouting random BS?
6'3" and 160 is fine if it works for you, I am not built that way. I think its all great, we are all different people here. What works for some doesnt for others, I am going to hit the gym now.

I'm not exactly sure what kind of "shoulder" injury you are referring to, but at least as far as I know a strong "chest" isn't really going to help. Especially in gaston type moves. Now, I just want to clarify that when people mention "strengthening your chest" they seem to mean "pecs", so that's what I'm working with here.

I would think that other muscle groups (like the rotator cuff muscles- and yes, I know one of them IS in your chest.....) would be more appropriate for staving off shoulder problems while climbing.

All that said, I don't know for sure. Think of this as a legitimate question in the form of a statement rather than me picking a fight. "Cause it really is just that. Maybe OAH or aerilli can help on this one.


And speaking of aerilli- I can't help but be anal retentive here....BUT neurons and brain cells are most DEFINITELY not the same thing. While the question of can we regrow/grow neurons during our life may or may not be a sticky subject, there is NO doubt that we do grow brain cells during our life. Don't forget the VAST majority of cells in our brain are glial cells, which have clear stem cell populations and have been pretty clearly demonstrated to repopulate our brains with new cells. True, these aren't neurons, but also true is you didn't specify....Wink

Hmmm...a rotator cuff muscle in the chest?


onceahardman


Sep 19, 2009, 2:16 PM
Post #149 of 231 (3528 views)
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Re: [jt512] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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In reply to:
Weight gained by bench pressing and squats isn't going be terribly useful for climbing. Strapping on weights is a good first approximation.

Do you have any supporting evidence, or, as usual, should we just believe you because you report to climb 2 1/2 number grades below world-class?


(This post was edited by onceahardman on Sep 19, 2009, 2:17 PM)


altelis


Sep 19, 2009, 2:21 PM
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Re: [onceahardman] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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well, subscapularis is just deep to pectoralis major, eh? though due to how deep it is i suppose back is a better description....

my thought on calling it a chest muscle is that it is visualized from an anterior view as opposed to a posterior view, and in terms of its position on the rostral/caudal axis being just about the same as pec major (the archetypical "chest" muscle) i thought that some smart-ass would call it a chest muscle so i tried to beat them to it, so to speak....


also, anatomy text books teach it as a shoulder muscle (of course). but then pec major is listed as a shoulder muscle, which is why i started my last post with all those quotes.....

all that said, what's your opinion of strengthening pec major in an effort to prevent shoulder injury from gaston type movements vs more directed strengthening of the rotator cuff?

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