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onceahardman


Sep 19, 2009, 2:28 PM
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Re: [altelis] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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well, subscapularis is just deep to pectoralis major, eh? though due to how deep it is i suppose back is a better description....

If you dissect pectoralis major, you will not find subscapularis underneath, unless you are thinking about the orientation of their respective tendons as they relate to the humeral attachments. The muscle belly of subscapularis is pretty clearly a dorsal structure, while the muscle belly of pec major is ventral.


altelis


Sep 19, 2009, 2:33 PM
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Re: [onceahardman] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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my bad. i was ambiguous about the muscle belly and the insertion tendon. i was trying to be a smart-ass to a as-of-yet-not-voiced-silly-response to my post. i could just picture some one somewhere saying it was on the ventral aspect of the scapula so it would be in the chest....

i was being not clear and not funny at the same time.


all that said, i feel like my original (though obviously lost point) is further backed up. somebody (who i've now forgotten, though it doesn't matter who) stated that working out your chest would help to reduce shoulder injury from moves like a gaston. i was trying to say that i thought one's time would be better spent working out other muscle groups. what say you to that?


ClimbClimb


Sep 19, 2009, 2:48 PM
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Re: [altelis] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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I both lift & climb. They can get in the way with each other sometimes. But it's worth trying to make time for both. Be careful with doing a lot of pullups, chinups or dips after climbing, for exaple.

But then again, I'm not an adherent to the "great climbers are stick figures", "do not have a lot of bulk", "it's not about strength" school of thought -- and my observations suggest the opposite. Namely, being muscular, especially upper body, abs & back, is strongly correlated with climbing performance.


jt512


Sep 19, 2009, 2:49 PM
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Re: [onceahardman] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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onceahardman wrote:
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Weight gained by bench pressing and squats isn't going be terribly useful for climbing. Strapping on weights is a good first approximation.

Do you have any supporting evidence, or, as usual, should we just believe you because you report to climb 2 1/2 number grades below world-class?

Sorry. That study hasn't been done. Just have to rely on logic and experience.

Jay


whipper


Sep 19, 2009, 3:38 PM
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I think thats what we are all waiting on, Jay, is for you to rely on logic.


onceahardman


Sep 19, 2009, 5:03 PM
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yeah, I agree. I think that with all the back-intensive training climbers tend to get (through resistance training things like lock offs and fingerboards) that doing a bit of balancing might well keep shoulders healthy, though.

Tons of rotator cuff, too.


onceahardman


Sep 19, 2009, 5:08 PM
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Re: [jt512] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
onceahardman wrote:
In reply to:
Weight gained by bench pressing and squats isn't going be terribly useful for climbing. Strapping on weights is a good first approximation.

Do you have any supporting evidence, or, as usual, should we just believe you because you report to climb 2 1/2 number grades below world-class?

Sorry. That study hasn't been done. Just have to rely on logic and experience.

Jay

Well, I have answered questions on this very forum about hamstrings. Strong hamstrings don't tear as often. Squats, and the many variants thereof, are terrific hamstring strengtheners. Closed kinetic chain, too, so relatively safe for the knee ligaments.

Logic and experience dictate doing some hamstring strengthening, like squats, to avoid having your hammies let you down when you need them most.


theguy


Sep 19, 2009, 5:28 PM
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Re: [nivlac] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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nivlac wrote:
Does anyone know if gymnasts do any specific weight (strength) training?

Bodyweight Gymnastics Training

nivlac wrote:
Wasn't Gill a former gymnast (meaning good gymnasts have the training to be very good climbers)?


You're right about Gill, but he continued gymnastics because "I wanted to build up my physique" , rather than due to a climbing benefit.

Lisa Rands and Lynn Hill were also gymnasts as children, so there may be something to your conclusion despite the folks on this site who say that training for other sports is sports-specific and doesn't apply to climbing.


aerili


Sep 19, 2009, 9:44 PM
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Re: [jt512] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
Weight gained by bench pressing and squats isn't going be terribly useful for climbing. Strapping on weights is a good first approximation.
I continue to totally disagree [with the highlighted statement]. The pecs, the glutes, the quads, calves, hamstrings, and core are never inert when climbing--unlike weight strapped on to the outside of the body.

Of course there is a threshold for diminishing returns, but we are not talking about such an excessive amount of extra weight.

You are starting to sound more and more like you view climbing as all about the pull-up muscles.........haaaa.......(Like how I'm lighting your fire?)




theguy wrote:
Lisa Rands and Lynn Hill were also gymnasts as children, so there may be something to your conclusion despite the folks on this site who say that training for other sports is sports-specific and doesn't apply to climbing.
I think it's less about gymnastics skill transferring to climbing skill, guy, and more about the genetic features former gymnasts possess that transfer well to climbing: stuff like smaller stature, possibly stiffer tendons in the upper extremities, advantageous muscle insertions and more favorable body levers for pulling power, possible higher percentage of fast twitch muscle fibers, etc.


jt512


Sep 19, 2009, 11:24 PM
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Re: [whipper] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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whipper wrote:
I think thats what we are all waiting on, Jay, is for you to rely on logic.

Sure. It's completely logical to believe that squats and push-ups are important ingredients for climbing hard. Let's not forget swimming, and all the other "logical" exercises that have climbers on this site swear by.

Jay


degaine


Sep 20, 2009, 1:22 AM
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Re: [whipper] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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whipper wrote:
I think thats what we are all waiting on, Jay, is for you to rely on logic.

Just out of curiosity, could you please explain how having huge, muscular legs (read heavy) will help you to climb at the top grades?


degaine


Sep 20, 2009, 1:23 AM
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Re: [jt512] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
whipper wrote:
I think thats what we are all waiting on, Jay, is for you to rely on logic.

Sure. It's completely logical to believe that squats and push-ups are important ingredients for climbing hard. Let's not forget swimming, and all the other "logical" exercises that have climbers on this site swear by.

Jay

C'mon, Jay, we all know that underwater basket weaving helps with finger strength and dexterity for climbing!


jt512


Sep 20, 2009, 2:25 AM
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degaine wrote:
jt512 wrote:
whipper wrote:
I think thats what we are all waiting on, Jay, is for you to rely on logic.

Sure. It's completely logical to believe that squats and push-ups are important ingredients for climbing hard. Let's not forget swimming, and all the other "logical" exercises that have climbers on this site swear by.

Jay

C'mon, Jay, we all know that underwater basket weaving helps with finger strength and dexterity for climbing!

That, essentially, is what has been claimed on this site, over and over againówhich, I take it, you have noticed.

Jay


theguy


Sep 20, 2009, 7:09 AM
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Re: [whipper] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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whipper wrote:
Anyone on here who thinks JT's question about how hard the other guy climbed was for a "benchmark" feel free to post up.

Sorry, can't take that bait: just do a search for JT's posts on the importance of a control group.


whipper


Sep 20, 2009, 9:28 AM
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jt512 wrote:
whipper wrote:
I think thats what we are all waiting on, Jay, is for you to rely on logic.

Sure. It's completely logical to believe that squats and push-ups are important ingredients for climbing hard. Let's not forget swimming, and all the other "logical" exercises that have climbers on this site swear by.

Jay

Why do you think there are no other exercises that are good for climbing. I really do not understand. Do you think pro athletes only practice their sport exactly? Think sprinters, is all those guys do is sprint? No way, what good does a strong upper body do them?
What is it Jay that makes you the athourity on this? is it your mediocre ability? I am pretty sure the people educated in this are going against you. Is it how long you have been climbing? Why not admit that yes, it might help others? Hell it might help you, have you tried it? whats your background in lifting, Jay. How about swimming, ever tried it? it might push your onsight grade up. you never know untill you try, or are you OK with being mediocre?

And who said anything about "huge legs" we are talking lifting wieghts....NOT body building. what a bunch of idiots on here


jt512


Sep 20, 2009, 11:00 AM
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Re: [whipper] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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whipper wrote:
jt512 wrote:
whipper wrote:
I think thats what we are all waiting on, Jay, is for you to rely on logic.

Sure. It's completely logical to believe that squats and push-ups are important ingredients for climbing hard. Let's not forget swimming, and all the other "logical" exercises that have climbers on this site swear by.

Jay

Why do you think there are no other exercises that are good for climbing. I really do not understand. Do you think pro athletes only practice their sport exactly? Think sprinters, is all those guys do is sprint? No way, what good does a strong upper body do them?

Since you were "waiting for me to rely on logic" I'll simply point out that that is the beginning of straw man argument, and leave it at that.

In reply to:
What is it Jay that makes you the athourity on this? is it your mediocre ability? I am pretty sure the people educated in this are going against you. Is it how long you have been climbing?


And that that is an appeal to authority.

In reply to:
Why not admit that yes, it might help others? Hell it might help you, have you tried it? whats your background in lifting, Jay. How about swimming, ever tried it? it might push your onsight grade up. you never know untill you try, or are you OK with being mediocre?

There might be a giant teacup in orbit around Neptune, too. I'll never know, until I go up in a rocket ship. There is no reason to investigate every physically implausible hypotheses you can think of.

In reply to:
And who said anything about "huge legs" we are talking lifting wieghts....NOT body building. what a bunch of idiots on here

The OP is clearly talking about bodybuilding. He has already talked about gaining four pounds, just in his chest!

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Sep 20, 2009, 11:12 AM)


whipper


Sep 20, 2009, 11:37 AM
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In reply to:
The OP is clearly talking about bodybuilding. He has already talked about gaining four pounds, just in his chest!

Jay

Do me a favor and read the OP. You dont know shit about body building. You simply can not put on that type of muscle with the workouts he talks about. Go into a wieght room and look around. What percentage look like "body builders"
I guess what has gotten me so rilled up is that people are saying "lifting wieght will hurt your climing" or "doing squats will hurt your climbing" the reallity is is that is just not the case. While it may not be right for everyone, its not going to hurt some people either. So lets say you blow a tendon in your hand. You can
1:sit around on your ass, and rest to recover
or
2: lift or swim untill your finger is healed
Who is going to come back stronger?


Look at Steve Petro, the guy is jacked and huge, Look at Jim Dunn, he is a lard ass (sorry Jim) They are both bad asses. You dont have to fit a mold here.
Jay, your last post was complete bullshit, "Straw man", "Teacups in orbit". Your pathetic. "climb 5.13 like I do"...oh wait, you dont. Why dont you go make fun of people who dont climb as hard as you now, thats about all you have to offer this site, it seems.


whipper


Sep 20, 2009, 11:42 AM
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Re: [theguy] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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theguy wrote:
whipper wrote:
Anyone on here who thinks JT's question about how hard the other guy climbed was for a "benchmark" feel free to post up.

Sorry, can't take that bait: just do a search for JT's posts on the importance of a control group.

Hey Guy,
One person does not a "control group" make. Jay's point was to belittle the poster for his climbing ability...


sidepull


Sep 20, 2009, 12:13 PM
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Since people keep asking for studies:

ABSTRACT. Myer, G.D., K.R. Ford, J.P. Palumbo, and T.E. Hewett. Neuromuscular training improves performance and lowerextremity biomechanics in female athletes. J. Strength Cond. Res. 19(1):51Ė60. 2005.óThe purpose of this study was to examine the effects of a comprehensive neuromuscular training program on measures of performance and lower-extremity movement biomechanics in female athletes. The hypothesis was that significant improvements in measures of performance would be demonstrated concomitant with improved biomechanical measures related to anterior cruciate ligament injury risk. Forty-one female basketball, soccer, and volleyball players (age, 15.3 6 0.9 years; weight, 64.8 6 9.96 kg; height, 171.2 6 7.21 cm) underwent 6 weeks of training that included 4 main components (plyometric and movement, core strengthening and balance, resistance training, and speed training). Twelve age-, height-, and weight-matched controls underwent the same testing protocol twice 6 weeks apart. Trained athletes demonstrated increased predicted 1 repetition maximum squat (92%) and bench press (20%). Right and left single-leg hop distance increased 10.39 cm and 8.53 cm, respectively, and vertical jump also increased from 39.9 6 0.9 cm to 43.2 6 1.1 cm with training. Speed in a 9.1-m sprint improved from 1.80 6 0.02 seconds to 1.73 6 0.01 seconds. Pre- and posttest 3-dimensional motion analysis demonstrated increased knee flexion-extension range of motion during the landing phase of a vertical jump (right, 71.9 6 1.48 to 76.9 6 1.48; left, 71.3 6 1.58 to 77.3 6 1.48). Training decreased knee valgus (28%) and varus (38%) torques. Control subjects did not demonstrate significant alterations during the 6-week interval. The results of this study support the hypothesis that the combination of multiple-injury prevention-training components into a comprehensive program improves measures of performance and movement biomechanics.


sidepull


Sep 20, 2009, 12:24 PM
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also relevant:

Dave MacLeod:
http://onlineclimbingcoach.blogspot.com/...ch-about-my-own.html

In reply to:
I donít often talk much about my own training on this blog, but in my ongoing long term experiments on myself Iíve seen a really interesting trend this year.

Iíve always held the view that having a low body weight was really important for hard climbing, especially sport climbing. It used to be in fashion but then seemed to go out of fashion for a long while, perhaps because people were going about dieting the wrong way and ending up weak and unhappy! But I reckon being light should come more back into fashion again among anyone who wants to link more than a few moves on steep ground close to their limit.

My evidence? In the past 10 months Iíve been able to increase my grade from 8c to 9a. Thatís a very quick progression at this end of the grading scale, especially for someone not so young these days. How did I do it? I lost 4.5 kgs.

Yes, it really was that simple.

Now, I should qualify that by saying the effect would not have happened had it not been for all other aspects of my training, tactics and approach being relatively close to optimal and my strategy for managing the weight loss very well thought through and researched. The dynamics of who would benefit from this type of adaptation, why and how and when to go about it is something Iíll be writing at length about (probably in a book quite soon).

But the basic message is clear Ė being light is pretty damn important for hard climbing.

If you feel otherwise, please comment below and I will argue you round!


sidepull


Sep 20, 2009, 12:27 PM
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Re: [sidepull] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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again, relevant:

Dave MacLeod
http://onlineclimbingcoach.blogspot.com/...ished-on-finger.html

In reply to:
My undergraduate research project investigating determinants of finger endurance in trained climbers was recently published in the Journal of Sport Sciences. You can see the details here or access the full paper if you have access to the scientific journals through an academic or other institution. A huge thanks to Stan Grant for encouraging me to keep going with the log preparation of the manuscript for submission and to everyone that worked with me on the paper and volunteered for the research itself.

We observed that climbers were not dramatically better at tolerating occlusive isometric contractions of the finger flexors (as you get in difficult climbing), but were surprisingly good at sustaining long periods of intermittent high force isometric contractions compared to untrained people. This could be down to an ability to perfuse the muscles very rapidly and recover from the contractions while reaching for the next hold. Not surprisingly, we also observed yet another confirmation that pure finger strength, and especially finger strength to weight ratio was a strong predictor of climbing level.

The intermittent isometric muscle contractions of our fingers in climbing are not that common in strength and endurance dependent sports, and there is still much to be learned about the exact causes of failure to maintain force output and sequence of chemical events that happen deep in the exercising muscle during fatigue.

Big up to anyone out there willing to take up this mantle and help us to learn more about the physiological limitations in climbing. The continued dramatic rises in the level of ability of the worlds top climbers really shows that we are nowhere yet, either with our understanding, or what could be done with it.


(This post was edited by sidepull on Sep 20, 2009, 12:30 PM)


sidepull


Sep 20, 2009, 12:30 PM
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And finally:

Dave MacLeod
http://onlineclimbingcoach.blogspot.com/...urn-to-activity.html

In reply to:
Layoff vs slow return to activity
One of the main worries climbers have after getting an injury is whether to take a complete layoff from climbing activity and how long that layoff should be. Some reading about rehab in sport will tell you that extended layoffs are very bad news not only for losing form but also recovering from the injury. Here is quote from a review of strength training in sports rehab which really rams home the point:
"it is now clear that during the remodeling phase, occurring theoretically from the 21st day after injury and even lasting 300 to 500 days, the collagen tissue remodeling can only take place efficiently when put under stress (or load)."
The initial layoff (up to three weeks) allows the acute phase of the injury to pass (that is inflammation causing swelling, tenderness and lots of nasty chemicals in the wound). Beyond that, it takes training for the injury to respond with improvements in exactly the same way as normal training, except of course that it is starting from a very low load capability. What has to be remembered is that sporting function is not normal function. If you layoff for a long period, an injury will recover to the point it can handle what is being asked of it (i.e. lifting kettles, tapping keyboards in some people's case!). You would'nt stop climbing for six months and then jump back on your hardest grade would you? So if you have an injury where the capability of the damaged tissue drops to a very low level, you shouldn't let it languish at that level and then expect it to suddenly perform a massive jump in standard by starting normal climbing again.
The bottom line is, rehab from injury is (beyond the initial phase) analogous to normal training, with progressive overload to stimulate the tissue to respond. All the aspects of normal training also apply; monitoring of progress, regular and stuctured exercises, careful lifestyle support (which in this case will include rehab treatments like Lewis reaction icing, stretching and maybe friction massage).


sidepull


Sep 20, 2009, 12:40 PM
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Here's my second response to the OP (not that he'll read it), using the thread's title as a summation of his question:

Yes, many of us do lift weights - you can see it's a debated and sometimes divisive issue. But you weren't really asking about lifting weights as a way of improving your climbing, preventing injury, or anything "useful."

Few here lift weights to "look good." Go to another site for that info. Take your running back friend with you - you can rub fake tan on each other and take cool posing shots.


johnwesely


Sep 20, 2009, 12:40 PM
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For the record. I have two friends who have redpointed 14a and they both do a fair amount of weight lifting.


theguy


Sep 20, 2009, 12:50 PM
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Re: [whipper] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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whipper wrote:
theguy wrote:
whipper wrote:
Anyone on here who thinks JT's question about how hard the other guy climbed was for a "benchmark" feel free to post up.

Sorry, can't take that bait: just do a search for JT's posts on the importance of a control group.

Hey Guy,
One person does not a "control group" make. Jay's point was to belittle the poster for his climbing ability...

Oh dear...

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