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hafilax


Sep 23, 2009, 12:38 PM
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Re: [jt512] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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I keeping waiting for the jt gotcha but have to settle for an interesting Q&A. I think it deserves it's own thread.


jt512


Sep 23, 2009, 12:42 PM
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Re: [serpico] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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serpico wrote:
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Can I ask how you structure your time at the crags? Are you doing a lot of onsights, quick redpoints, etc.?

I don't really structure my time as such; whatever crag we end up at tends to decide what I'm going to do for the day. My preference is for onsights and quick redpoints but unfortunately with the sparsity of sport near me there aren't a lot of routes left for me to onsight so I generally have to go abroad to do that these days. When I'm forced into less than quick redpoints (some would say sieges) I always try to combine them with some mileage on routes I've done previously; typically 3-4 7a-7b warm ups and a couple of warm downs. I try to get a solely mileage day in at least once a week.
If I'm not working (currently not working for 2 weeks) I'll climb 3 days on, 1 day off, 2 days on, 1 day off, training after climbing twice a week before the rest day. On my rest days I'll work core.

Wow! Five climbing days a week. Employed or not, I don't think my body could handle that.

Jay


serpico


Sep 23, 2009, 1:21 PM
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Re: [jt512] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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In reply to:
Wow! Five climbing days a week. Employed or not, I don't think my body could handle that.

Volume is a trainable attribute, many people train strength, power, endurance, flexibility... some of the more enlightened might even train technique, but most people don't even think about training to to tolerate a greater volume of climbing.


jt512


Sep 23, 2009, 1:34 PM
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Re: [serpico] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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serpico wrote:
In reply to:
Wow! Five climbing days a week. Employed or not, I don't think my body could handle that.

Volume is a trainable attribute, many people train strength, power, endurance, flexibility... some of the more enlightened might even train technique, but most people don't even think about training to to tolerate a greater volume of climbing.

I train volume per session, but I've never really considered training the volume of sessions per week. I'm not sure at the physiologic level what you would be training. Recovery?

Jay


serpico


Sep 23, 2009, 1:53 PM
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Re: [jt512] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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In reply to:
I train volume per session, but I've never really considered training the volume of sessions per week. I'm not sure at the physiologic level what you would be training. Recovery?

You can definitely train volume on a per session basis but I find that there's still a limit to how much quality work you can achieve in a single session before fatigue compromises it. I think in a purely training context 3hrs of work will be of higher quality and will yield better results if you split into 2x 1hr30 sessions on consecutive days rather than a single 3hr session.
As for what you're actually training with multiple days on you're training recovery - glycogen storage etc, but also on a much longer time scale stronger connective tissue and specific bone hypertrophy, as well as a more frequent stimulus for whatever adaptations you were training for in the individual sessions.
Aerili could be more specific I suspect.


el_layclimber


Sep 23, 2009, 2:17 PM
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Re: [jt512] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
serpico wrote:
In reply to:
how many times have you been climbing and needed to pull on a hold with your hand facing you?

Every time I've ever used an undercut.

The context for this question was the usefulness of chin-ups. Isn't pulling on an undercut usually done at chest level or lower?

Jay
You do most of your pulling at waist level or lower.


threebadfish


Sep 24, 2009, 8:35 AM
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Re: [jt512] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
threebadfish wrote:
For me pull-ups and dips have been beneficial on pumpy stuff....



Jay

For pumpy climbing pull-ups have helped - for me. Are you refuting that?

I climb 5 days a week, and don't run back to my computer every night and enter every route I do.


jt512


Sep 24, 2009, 10:25 AM
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Re: [threebadfish] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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threebadfish wrote:
jt512 wrote:
threebadfish wrote:
For me pull-ups and dips have been beneficial on pumpy stuff....



Jay

For pumpy climbing pull-ups have helped - for me. Are you refuting that?

I'm refuting that two things: (1) that you've climbed a pumpy route; and (2) that, if you did, that pullups would make it any less pumpy.

Are you sure you know what "pumpy" means?

Jay


threebadfish


Sep 24, 2009, 10:47 AM
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Re: [jt512] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
threebadfish wrote:
jt512 wrote:
threebadfish wrote:
For me pull-ups and dips have been beneficial on pumpy stuff....



Jay

For pumpy climbing pull-ups have helped - for me. Are you refuting that?

I'm refuting that two things: (1) that you've climbed a pumpy route; and (2) that, if you did, that pullups would make it any less pumpy.

Are you sure you know what "pumpy" means?

Jay

Less pumpy? Try "easier, less tiring".

So my original point, that pull-ups can be beneficial for pumpy climbs, you aren't refuting that fact? I'm not here to prove how bad-ass I am, because I'm not, nor is that relevant at all. I'm here to learn and share information.


jt512


Sep 24, 2009, 10:54 AM
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Re: [threebadfish] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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threebadfish wrote:
jt512 wrote:
threebadfish wrote:
jt512 wrote:
threebadfish wrote:
For me pull-ups and dips have been beneficial on pumpy stuff....



Jay

For pumpy climbing pull-ups have helped - for me. Are you refuting that?

I'm refuting that two things: (1) that you've climbed a pumpy route; and (2) that, if you did, that pullups would make it any less pumpy.

Are you sure you know what "pumpy" means?

Jay

Less pumpy? Try "easier, less tiring".

So my original point, that pull-ups can be beneficial for pumpy climbs, you aren't refuting that fact?

Logic not your strong point. I forgot. We learned that in the other thread. Yes, as I said above, I am refuting that pullups will be of significant value in making pumpy climbs less pumpy.

Jay


threebadfish


Sep 24, 2009, 10:56 AM
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Re: [jt512] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
threebadfish wrote:
jt512 wrote:
threebadfish wrote:
jt512 wrote:
threebadfish wrote:
For me pull-ups and dips have been beneficial on pumpy stuff....



Jay

For pumpy climbing pull-ups have helped - for me. Are you refuting that?

I'm refuting that two things: (1) that you've climbed a pumpy route; and (2) that, if you did, that pullups would make it any less pumpy.

Are you sure you know what "pumpy" means?

Jay

Less pumpy? Try "easier, less tiring".

So my original point, that pull-ups can be beneficial for pumpy climbs, you aren't refuting that fact?

Logic not your strong point. I forgot. We learned that in the other thread. Yes, as I said above, I am refuting that pullups will be of significant value in making pumpy climbs less pumpy.

Jay

You keep rephrasing what I am saying, do you not realize that? I didn't say anything about less pumpy, but easier and/or less tiring.


jt512


Sep 24, 2009, 11:02 AM
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Re: [threebadfish] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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threebadfish wrote:
jt512 wrote:
threebadfish wrote:
jt512 wrote:
threebadfish wrote:
jt512 wrote:
threebadfish wrote:
For me pull-ups and dips have been beneficial on pumpy stuff....



Jay

For pumpy climbing pull-ups have helped - for me. Are you refuting that?

I'm refuting that two things: (1) that you've climbed a pumpy route; and (2) that, if you did, that pullups would make it any less pumpy.

Are you sure you know what "pumpy" means?

Jay

Less pumpy? Try "easier, less tiring".

So my original point, that pull-ups can be beneficial for pumpy climbs, you aren't refuting that fact?

Logic not your strong point. I forgot. We learned that in the other thread. Yes, as I said above, I am refuting that pullups will be of significant value in making pumpy climbs less pumpy.

Jay

You keep rephrasing what I am saying, do you not realize that? I didn't say anything about less pumpy, but easier and/or less tiring.

I'm trying to phrase your hypothesis clearly and sensibly. If you don't mean that pullups make pumpy climbs less pumpy, but that they make pumpy climbs easier in some other sense, then what does the pumpiness of the climb have to do with anything?

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Sep 24, 2009, 11:02 AM)


altelis


Sep 24, 2009, 11:06 AM
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Re: [jt512] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
threebadfish wrote:
jt512 wrote:
threebadfish wrote:
jt512 wrote:
threebadfish wrote:
jt512 wrote:
threebadfish wrote:

I'm trying to phrase your hypothesis clearly and sensibly. If you don't mean that pullups make pumpy climbs less pumpy, but that they make pumpy climbs easier in some other sense, then what does the pumpiness of the climb have to do with anything?

Jay
let's not confuse him any further here, jay. if you make his point too easy to understand he may finally realize why he makes no senseBlush


disturbingthepeace


Sep 24, 2009, 2:48 PM
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Re: [threebadfish] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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threebadfish wrote:
jt512 wrote:
threebadfish wrote:
For me pull-ups and dips have been beneficial on pumpy stuff....



Jay

For pumpy climbing pull-ups have helped - for me. Are you refuting that?

I climb 5 days a week, and don't run back to my computer every night and enter every route I do.

Why do you think that pull-ups / dips have helped you with pumpy climbing? I've never been pumped while climbing in any of the major pull-up muscles. It's always my forearms that have given out. I've been so pumped that I couldn't close my fingers, but never all that tired in my shoulders, lat's, or upper arms.

Hmm, one thing that pullups might help with in pumpy overhanging routes is "boinking" to get back on the wall if you fall off, but "walking the rope" is normally easier.

As you mentioned in your original post I'd stick with climbing / climbing related training to get better at pumpy routes. (4 x 4's). Just curious as to why you think these exercises have helped especially on pumpy routes.


suprasoup


Sep 24, 2009, 2:57 PM
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Re: [disturbingthepeace] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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disturbingthepeace wrote:
threebadfish wrote:
jt512 wrote:
threebadfish wrote:
For me pull-ups and dips have been beneficial on pumpy stuff....



Jay

For pumpy climbing pull-ups have helped - for me. Are you refuting that?

I climb 5 days a week, and don't run back to my computer every night and enter every route I do.

Why do you think that pull-ups / dips have helped you with pumpy climbing? I've never been pumped while climbing in any of the major pull-up muscles. It's always my forearms that have given out. I've been so pumped that I couldn't close my fingers, but never all that tired in my shoulders, lat's, or upper arms.

Hmm, one thing that pullups might help with in pumpy overhanging routes is "boinking" to get back on the wall if you fall off, but "walking the rope" is normally easier.

As you mentioned in your original post I'd stick with climbing / climbing related training to get better at pumpy routes. (4 x 4's). Just curious as to why you think these exercises have helped especially on pumpy routes.

You're in the wrong thread DTP. I think there was one about when to utilize drop kneesLaugh


disturbingthepeace


Sep 24, 2009, 4:01 PM
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Re: [suprasoup] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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Well you should of course utilize dropknees whenever theoretically possible. That works out to at least one drop knee for every hand movement. Now if only training pull-ups transferred into being able to get more drop knees per route then I would be set. Tongue


dugl33


Oct 20, 2009, 3:56 PM
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Re: [Tactix23] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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I tend to run thin (5-10, 150 with boots on) and for me spending some time weight training has never seemed detrimental to climbing.

If pure difficulty is your game, then I imagine your limited time is best spent climbing outside supplemented with climbing-gym time and bouldering, with fairly minimal antagonistic time to keep a little muscle balance and healthy joints.

On the other hand, if your game includes lugging 65 pound pigs up the slabs approach to half dome, and your legs get shaky bringing in the groceries from the car, maybe those squats aren't such a bad idea. And if you can't easily press out a mantle, then maybe some dips and bench press wouldn't kill you. If you feel like your biceps are going to come un-glued on that long undercling muscle-fuck traverse or jugging yet another pitch, then some curls might be in order. If your legs are so skinny you can't get a decent knee jam in that leaning off-width... well... and your calves are melting after pitch after pitch of endless friction... umm ... and if you have no chest and you're hoping to draw in the babes like moths to a pectoral flame... well...

not all climbing is the same, not all climbers are the same. Personally I'd need to eat like a real pig and lift like an absolute animal to gain any significant weight, especially any not compensated for by increased strength, endurance, faster recovery and better control. Also I bet you'd have to work your ass off to add 4 lbs to your chest -- go buy four pounds of steak and see how much meat that really is. (You very well might lack the genetics to accomplish this regardless of your efforts.)

Final food for thought:

I have a good friend who climbs pretty hard, in the V7, 12+ range, and he swears lifting has helped his climbing.

I also remember a real a meat-head friend who was strong as fuck and I watched him struggle and unnecessarily muscle his way up a relatively easy climb due to poor technique, arriving at the belay like Conan with veins popping, sweating like a dog, and totally gassed. Now he lifts less, runs a bit, and climbs more often and better.

Why not just experiment for a while and see what works for YOU?


saint_john


Feb 21, 2011, 1:04 PM
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Re: [dugl33] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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dugl33 wrote:
I tend to run thin (5-10, 150 with boots on) and for me spending some time weight training has never seemed detrimental to climbing.

If pure difficulty is your game, then I imagine your limited time is best spent climbing outside supplemented with climbing-gym time and bouldering, with fairly minimal antagonistic time to keep a little muscle balance and healthy joints.

On the other hand, if your game includes lugging 65 pound pigs up the slabs approach to half dome, and your legs get shaky bringing in the groceries from the car, maybe those squats aren't such a bad idea. And if you can't easily press out a mantle, then maybe some dips and bench press wouldn't kill you. If you feel like your biceps are going to come un-glued on that long undercling muscle-fuck traverse or jugging yet another pitch, then some curls might be in order. If your legs are so skinny you can't get a decent knee jam in that leaning off-width... well... and your calves are melting after pitch after pitch of endless friction... umm ... and if you have no chest and you're hoping to draw in the babes like moths to a pectoral flame... well...

not all climbing is the same, not all climbers are the same. Personally I'd need to eat like a real pig and lift like an absolute animal to gain any significant weight, especially any not compensated for by increased strength, endurance, faster recovery and better control. Also I bet you'd have to work your ass off to add 4 lbs to your chest -- go buy four pounds of steak and see how much meat that really is. (You very well might lack the genetics to accomplish this regardless of your efforts.)

Final food for thought:

I have a good friend who climbs pretty hard, in the V7, 12+ range, and he swears lifting has helped his climbing.

I also remember a real a meat-head friend who was strong as fuck and I watched him struggle and unnecessarily muscle his way up a relatively easy climb due to poor technique, arriving at the belay like Conan with veins popping, sweating like a dog, and totally gassed. Now he lifts less, runs a bit, and climbs more often and better.

Why not just experiment for a while and see what works for YOU?

nice post, but this is the internet. logic and rational thinking are not allowed.


justroberto


Feb 21, 2011, 2:31 PM
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Re: [saint_john] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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saint_john wrote:
dugl33 wrote:
I tend to run thin (5-10, 150 with boots on) and for me spending some time weight training has never seemed detrimental to climbing.

If pure difficulty is your game, then I imagine your limited time is best spent climbing outside supplemented with climbing-gym time and bouldering, with fairly minimal antagonistic time to keep a little muscle balance and healthy joints.

On the other hand, if your game includes lugging 65 pound pigs up the slabs approach to half dome, and your legs get shaky bringing in the groceries from the car, maybe those squats aren't such a bad idea. And if you can't easily press out a mantle, then maybe some dips and bench press wouldn't kill you. If you feel like your biceps are going to come un-glued on that long undercling muscle-fuck traverse or jugging yet another pitch, then some curls might be in order. If your legs are so skinny you can't get a decent knee jam in that leaning off-width... well... and your calves are melting after pitch after pitch of endless friction... umm ... and if you have no chest and you're hoping to draw in the babes like moths to a pectoral flame... well...

not all climbing is the same, not all climbers are the same. Personally I'd need to eat like a real pig and lift like an absolute animal to gain any significant weight, especially any not compensated for by increased strength, endurance, faster recovery and better control. Also I bet you'd have to work your ass off to add 4 lbs to your chest -- go buy four pounds of steak and see how much meat that really is. (You very well might lack the genetics to accomplish this regardless of your efforts.)

Final food for thought:

I have a good friend who climbs pretty hard, in the V7, 12+ range, and he swears lifting has helped his climbing.

I also remember a real a meat-head friend who was strong as fuck and I watched him struggle and unnecessarily muscle his way up a relatively easy climb due to poor technique, arriving at the belay like Conan with veins popping, sweating like a dog, and totally gassed. Now he lifts less, runs a bit, and climbs more often and better.

Why not just experiment for a while and see what works for YOU?

nice post, but this is the internet. logic and rational thinking are not allowed.
You're on quite the rampage today of responding to years-old threads.


saint_john


Feb 21, 2011, 2:48 PM
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very slow day at the office


hafilax


Feb 21, 2011, 4:45 PM
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In the name of science I am in the middle of a little experiment in crossfit as cross training for climbing. I decided to pick up a new hobby after years of being a mediocre gym climber (stuck at soft 5.11d/V5 for a few years) and have now been doing crossfit for about a year now with no gym climbing and no outdoor climbing since about September. Since lifts have improved as follows:
Back Squat: 180->255#
Overhead squat: 95->125#
Deadlift: 200->350#
Bench:125->150#
Press:115->135#
Weighted pullup: ->60#

I can do about 40 consecutive kipping pullups and maybe 18 or so strict. 10 consecutive ring dips. I can also do a kipping muscle-up. My clean and jerk is 185 and snatch 140ish. I'm still a beginner lifter so the lifts go up by quite a bit each time I revisit them.

I also ran a half marathon in August with a total of 3 training runs and managed a time of 1:45 which I was pretty proud of but totally wrecked me for a week. I even entered a couple of crossfit competitions and didn't come in last.

My general fitness has improved by a huge margin. Hiking and backcountry skiing are now effortless as far as the legs are concerned. No DOMS or major muscle fatigue. When I go back to climbing this summer it will be interesting to see if I will be able to climb any better. I have been doing crossfit a lot more than I was gym climbing (3-4 times/week vs 1-2 times/week). I have the feeling that I will have to put in some time getting the endurance back that my climbing level won't be that much different. Outside I am very skill and fear limited since I don't get out that often and am still getting over a big fall I had. In the gym I might be able to climb harder especially in the steep juggy climbs with big moves.

I'll report back once climbing season starts here which will be in a month or so. IME from the breaks I've taken from climbing, the absolute strength comes back quickly and the endurance takes a little longer. The question is whether I will be able to surpass where I was before in any aspects.


Grizvok


May 17, 2011, 8:46 PM
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hafilax wrote:
In the name of science I am in the middle of a little experiment in crossfit as cross training for climbing. I decided to pick up a new hobby after years of being a mediocre gym climber (stuck at soft 5.11d/V5 for a few years) and have now been doing crossfit for about a year now with no gym climbing and no outdoor climbing since about September. Since lifts have improved as follows:
Back Squat: 180->255#
Overhead squat: 95->125#
Deadlift: 200->350#
Bench:125->150#
Press:115->135#
Weighted pullup: ->60#

I can do about 40 consecutive kipping pullups and maybe 18 or so strict. 10 consecutive ring dips. I can also do a kipping muscle-up. My clean and jerk is 185 and snatch 140ish. I'm still a beginner lifter so the lifts go up by quite a bit each time I revisit them.

I also ran a half marathon in August with a total of 3 training runs and managed a time of 1:45 which I was pretty proud of but totally wrecked me for a week. I even entered a couple of crossfit competitions and didn't come in last.

My general fitness has improved by a huge margin. Hiking and backcountry skiing are now effortless as far as the legs are concerned. No DOMS or major muscle fatigue. When I go back to climbing this summer it will be interesting to see if I will be able to climb any better. I have been doing crossfit a lot more than I was gym climbing (3-4 times/week vs 1-2 times/week). I have the feeling that I will have to put in some time getting the endurance back that my climbing level won't be that much different. Outside I am very skill and fear limited since I don't get out that often and am still getting over a big fall I had. In the gym I might be able to climb harder especially in the steep juggy climbs with big moves.

I'll report back once climbing season starts here which will be in a month or so. IME from the breaks I've taken from climbing, the absolute strength comes back quickly and the endurance takes a little longer. The question is whether I will be able to surpass where I was before in any aspects.

What has happened to your weight and bodyfat percentages?

When I started climbing I was 6'2 155 and not in the best condition maybe 14-15% bf...I ended up about 150 and 12-13% after about a year so 6-7 months ago I decided to start lifting and have went from that to 6'2 180 at around 12% using some smaller cut/bulk cycles. I ultimately want to get to 6'2 190 at 12% and then go on a cut to 8% at whatever weight that would be. I've been climbing some but not nearly as much as I used to (maybe 2-3 times a month whereas I was going 3-4 times a week) and am the same at bouldering and better at toprope/leading. I've improved my conditioning a lot and muscle mass quite a bit and am genuinely excited as to if/how it will improve my climbing. I really didn't do it for climbing I was just bummed about having no muscle mass so decided to do something about it and weight lifting plus a calorie surplus did wonders and wonders.


ceebo


May 18, 2011, 3:29 AM
Post #223 of 231 (3166 views)
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Registered: Nov 8, 2009
Posts: 862

Re: [serpico] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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serpico wrote:
In reply to:
I train volume per session, but I've never really considered training the volume of sessions per week. I'm not sure at the physiologic level what you would be training. Recovery?

You can definitely train volume on a per session basis but I find that there's still a limit to how much quality work you can achieve in a single session before fatigue compromises it. I think in a purely training context 3hrs of work will be of higher quality and will yield better results if you split into 2x 1hr30 sessions on consecutive days rather than a single 3hr session.
As for what you're actually training with multiple days on you're training recovery - glycogen storage etc, but also on a much longer time scale stronger connective tissue and specific bone hypertrophy, as well as a more frequent stimulus for whatever adaptations you were training for in the individual sessions.
Aerili could be more specific I suspect.

I can not recall what book i read this in but it said the exact opposite. I did structure my training around this concept, so i would like more views on what approach is right.

Oh wait... i read it wrong. Nvm Blush


(This post was edited by ceebo on May 18, 2011, 3:53 AM)


flesh


May 19, 2011, 10:39 AM
Post #224 of 231 (3090 views)
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Registered: Mar 11, 2011
Posts: 418

Re: [ceebo] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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I believe weight lifting will provide zero results. It adds unnecessary weight. If your goal is to climb harder not to look better, just do high rep low weight antagonistic workouts, shoulders, pushups, reverse wrist curls, etc.

If you want to train your core, why not just do it climbing, since you want better core climbing muscles. Try bouldering on an overhang with a weight vest on, you will be stronger from fingers to toes. Or doing one arm lockoffs with both or one foot on in different body positions. Also you could boulder with tennis shoes on and purposely keep your feet on. IMO, overhanging bouldering with a weight vest on yields the best results for core.

My brother is 6 1 190 7% fat, lots of muscle, lifts weight 5 days a week for 5 years now. It's just to much weight. His fingers hurt, his skin hurts, and his endurance is horrible.


Rudmin


May 19, 2011, 11:15 AM
Post #225 of 231 (3082 views)
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Registered: Mar 29, 2009
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Re: [Tactix23] Anyone else lift weights here? [In reply to]
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Lifting weights turns you into a douchbag and here is the proof:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ENbUij8KHY

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