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Major Accident on the zorro face
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dingus


Oct 5, 2009, 8:34 AM
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Re: [photoguy190] Major Accident on the zorro face [In reply to]
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photoguy190 wrote:
How is it any safer to lower off on belay then repel? Both ways you have to untie from the rope, you can forget to clip your atc or forget to tie in. Both are stupid mistakes but I don't see how that one or the other would be less likely to make. You just need to double check ever thing and and weight it before you unclip your safety.

Fewer ways to get the chop.

Do as you please. I know I do.

DMT


tradmanclimbs


Oct 5, 2009, 8:38 AM
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Re: [tradmanclimbs] Major Accident on the zorro face [In reply to]
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Dingus, I feel that both rapping and lowering are dangerous. Possibly more ways to blow it lowering than rapping simply because there are two people involved. That being said I lower 99% of the time on spurt routs simply because it is faster and easier. Just the type of fast easy envornment that fosters brain fade.....


jt512


Oct 5, 2009, 8:42 AM
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Re: [gblauer] Major Accident on the zorro face [In reply to]
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gblauer wrote:
The particular climb that she was cleaning has a crappy stance at the anchors. You are hanging on your personal anchor(s) the whole time, as there are really no feet. (It's a big slab).

Then there is really no excuse for not weighting the rappel rope before unclipping. I can see how if you are at a good stance, you might be tempted unclip before weighting the rope, but when you're hanging at the anchors, it is difficult to see how you could even unclip without weighting the rappel rope first, in order to unweight your slings.

Jay


dingus


Oct 5, 2009, 8:46 AM
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Re: [tradmanclimbs] Major Accident on the zorro face [In reply to]
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tradmanclimbs wrote:
Dingus, I feel that both rapping and lowering are dangerous. Possibly more ways to blow it lowering than rapping simply because there are two people involved. That being said I lower 99% of the time on spurt routs simply because it is faster and easier. Just the type of fast easy envornment that fosters brain fade.....

OK, you're at the last bolt of a sport climb, one run below the anchors. You've already clipped the bolt.

Is it safer, right then, to just lower off, or continue to climb to the anchors, anchor in with 1 or probably 2 slings, untie, rethread, then rig rap, and then self-lower?

Clearly.... from a cumulative risk standpoint, lowering off from the bolt is faster and less risky.

Since we have already invested life-trust in the belayer we are not incurring additional riskm by asking that belayer to do his duty, ie lower the lead climber.

So no.... it is not an additional person added to the lower off equation - that person has already added his risk to the equation, before the leader ever got to the anchors.

What it comes down to is efficiency and elimination of unnecessary steps that each come with additional risk.

I get to an anchor, clip one draw, boom. I hang on that draw. Without doing anything else I grab some slack in the lead line, pass the bite through the anchor links, tie a bog ole figure 8 on a bite on the other side and clip that with a locker to my belay loop.

Untie my original knot and pull the tail through the anchors links.

Other than unclipping that draw, I'm done.

Dirt me.

Yes I understand some sport anchors are situated poorly and rapping may be better. In those times I would rap.

But the simplicy of the feed through method is elegant and since the belayer never goes off belay its safer too.

DMT


jt512


Oct 5, 2009, 8:49 AM
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Re: [photoguy190] Major Accident on the zorro face [In reply to]
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photoguy190 wrote:
How is it any safer to lower off on belay then repel? Both ways you have to untie from the rope, you can forget to clip your atc or forget to tie in. Both are stupid mistakes but I don't see how that one or the other would be less likely to make. You just need to double check ever thing and and weight it before you unclip your safety.

Anyone who thinks that to avoid a rappelling accident "you just need to" do some particular thing is an ignorant fool.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Oct 5, 2009, 9:01 AM)


tradmanclimbs


Oct 5, 2009, 9:01 AM
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Re: [jt512] Major Accident on the zorro face [In reply to]
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Dingus, that is exactly what i do.

Just pointing out that folks seem to mess it up and go splat enough that it must not be foolproofWink Seems like they get dropped lowering more often then they blow the retie/thread process though they do that ocasionaly as well. leads me to believe that adding the belayer into the mix adds to the danger.


jakedatc


Oct 5, 2009, 9:07 AM
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Re: [tradmanclimbs] Major Accident on the zorro face [In reply to]
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tradmanclimbs wrote:
Dingus, that is exactly what i do.

Just pointing out that folks seem to mess it up and go splat enough that it must not be foolproofWink Seems like they get dropped lowering more often then they blow the retie/thread process though they do that ocasionaly as well. leads me to believe that adding the belayer into the mix adds to the danger.

If they do it that way then the climber is never off belay and there shouldn't be any more risk than you had going up the route. Having a belayer in the mix is always present..

add in the fact that it is FAR safer to down clean a route on lower than on rappel. and before you say having a rap back up makes it Ok then you're trusting a piece of sling more than your belayer and that should say something bout your belayer.


jt512


Oct 5, 2009, 9:20 AM
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Re: [tradmanclimbs] Major Accident on the zorro face [In reply to]
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tradmanclimbs wrote:
Dingus, that is exactly what i do.

Just pointing out that folks seem to mess it up and go splat enough that it must not be foolproofWink Seems like they get dropped lowering more often then they blow the retie/thread process though they do that ocasionaly as well. leads me to believe that adding the belayer into the mix adds to the danger.

I read about as many rappelling accidents as lowering accidents in sport climbing, especially among beginners, and the rappelling accidents generally seem to be more serious. When you consider that lowering is far more prevalent in sport climbing than rappelling, it is apparent that the risk per descent from rappelling is greater than from lowering.

Even if you have to untie and thread the anchors to lower, there are more things that can (and do) go wrong rappelling than lowering. Setting up a rap requires more work on the part of the climber than setting up to lower. Just failing to ensure that the ends are both down has caused numerous accidents and near misses reported on this site. At least three climbers have reported accidents or near misses from the incredible mistake of thinking that their rope's end warning marks were the middle mark—talk about complacency! Additionally, controlling a descent on rappel is more difficult than controlling a descent by lowering, a difference that is magnified if you have to clean the route.

Like Dingus said, when you're sport climbing, you're already relying on your partner to catch your falls, "take" on command, lower you down to work a move, etc. You're not really relying on them for anything new by lowering off the route; you're just relying on them for a little longer.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Oct 5, 2009, 9:22 AM)


tradmanclimbs


Oct 5, 2009, 9:33 AM
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Re: [jt512] Major Accident on the zorro face [In reply to]
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Seems simple enough but they do mess it up. I used to rock rat a lot and there have been several times where I rapped simply because i had lost confidence in the belayer. My instructions often go allong the lines of Give me pleanty of slack, DO NOT PULL ME OFF!!.. the last 6 or so years I have been soloing much more and hooking up with strangers a lot less.... yes adding that second person into the mix does add to the danger. Leading i am trusting them only IF I fall. lowering i literaly put my life in their hands at all times.


jt512


Oct 5, 2009, 9:46 AM
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Re: [tradmanclimbs] Major Accident on the zorro face [In reply to]
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tradmanclimbs wrote:
yes adding that second person into the mix does add to the danger.

This is a bit of climbing lore that is simply false. Believing that adding a second climber to the team makes the descent more dangerous is analogous to believing that adding a copilot to the flight crew makes flying more dangerous. If the belayer is competent then lowering is safer than rappelling because the hard work is done by a second person who is safely on the ground, instead of by someone hanging a hundred feet in the air, who may be excited or tired from having just finished a challenging climb. If you are foolish enough to climb with incompetent partners, it's a different story.

Jay


tradmanclimbs


Oct 5, 2009, 9:52 AM
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Re: [jt512] Major Accident on the zorro face [In reply to]
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Jay, when you guide beginners you unfourtunatly run into dozens of situations where that partner endangers your life. While it is nessicary to teach them to lower safly with you as the live crash test dummy at times there are many situations where i simply choose to rap VS putting my life in the hands of a student.


jakedatc


Oct 5, 2009, 9:54 AM
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Re: [tradmanclimbs] Major Accident on the zorro face [In reply to]
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tradmanclimbs wrote:
Seems simple enough but they do mess it up. I used to rock rat a lot and there have been several times where I rapped simply because i had lost confidence in the belayer. My instructions often go allong the lines of Give me pleanty of slack, DO NOT PULL ME OFF!!.. the last 6 or so years I have been soloing much more and hooking up with strangers a lot less.... yes adding that second person into the mix does add to the danger. Leading i am trusting them only IF I fall. lowering i literaly put my life in their hands at all times.

LOL so you trust them to make an instantaneous action without warning when you fall but don't trust them to do a very controlled, self initiated action with plenty of warning. Crazy


jdefazio


Oct 5, 2009, 9:57 AM
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Re: [jt512] Major Accident on the zorro face [In reply to]
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"jt512 wrote:
3 - Why were you rappelling a sport route in the first place? It's safer and faster to lower.

Jay

Jay,
I'm not sure about the route in question, but this area has/had some routes where the bolted anchors simply consist of large hangers, i.e. without rings or chains.

Gail?


jt512


Oct 5, 2009, 10:02 AM
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Re: [jdefazio] Major Accident on the zorro face [In reply to]
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jdefazio wrote:
"jt512 wrote:
3 - Why were you rappelling a sport route in the first place? It's safer and faster to lower.

Jay

Jay,
I'm not sure about the route in question, but this area has/had some routes where the bolted anchors simply consist of large hangers, i.e. without rings or chains.

Gail?

Is "large hangers" supposed to mean "Metolius rap hangers", or something else?

Jay


tradmanclimbs


Oct 5, 2009, 10:04 AM
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Re: [jakedatc] Major Accident on the zorro face [In reply to]
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Jake its called guiding. You know you are soloing and that you CAN NOT FALL. The rope is there for the client or beginner that you are teaching. They get to learn how to do all this fun stuff but you would be a fool to trust them to catch a leader fall. Why not just set them up with a gri gri? They need to learn to belay with a standard belay device so the gri gri would be counter productive in this situation...


Seriously guys 99% of the time I lower off of sport climbs and i never guide on sport climbs.. we are basically in agreement... I just don't buy that lowering is significantly safer than rapping. You can get chopped either way..


(This post was edited by tradmanclimbs on Oct 5, 2009, 10:14 AM)


jdefazio


Oct 5, 2009, 10:09 AM
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Re: [jt512] Major Accident on the zorro face [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
jdefazio wrote:
"jt512 wrote:
3 - Why were you rappelling a sport route in the first place? It's safer and faster to lower.

Jay

Jay,
I'm not sure about the route in question, but this area has/had some routes where the bolted anchors simply consist of large hangers, i.e. without rings or chains.

Gail?

Is "large hangers" supposed to mean "Metolius rap hangers", or something else?

Jay

The ones I've come across were not nearly as friendly for lowering as the Metolius rap hangers, with sharper edges. This was a few years ago, however.


jt512


Oct 5, 2009, 10:13 AM
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jdefazio wrote:
jt512 wrote:
jdefazio wrote:
"jt512 wrote:
3 - Why were you rappelling a sport route in the first place? It's safer and faster to lower.

Jay

Jay,
I'm not sure about the route in question, but this area has/had some routes where the bolted anchors simply consist of large hangers, i.e. without rings or chains.

Gail?

Is "large hangers" supposed to mean "Metolius rap hangers", or something else?

Jay

The ones I've come across were not nearly as friendly for lowering as the Metolius rap hangers, with sharper edges. This was a few years ago, however.

If they weren't Metolius rap hangers, then you shouldn't be rapping directly off them, either.

Jay


jakedatc


Oct 5, 2009, 10:13 AM
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Re: [tradmanclimbs] Major Accident on the zorro face [In reply to]
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tradmanclimbs wrote:
Jake its calld guideing. You know you are soloing and that you CAN NOT FALL. The rope is there for the client or beginniner that you are teaching. They get to learn how to do all this fun stuff but you would be a fool to trust them to catch a leader fall. Why not just set them up with a gri gri? They need to learn to belay with a standard belay device so the gri gri would be counter productive in this situation...


Seriously guys 99% of the time I lower off of sport climbs and i never guide on sport climbs.. we are basicly in agreement... I just don't buy that lowering is significantly safer than rapping. You can get chopped either way..

Ok then you should have said that. Clearly Jay and I both thought that you were picking up random people to belay you.

we are in agreement except the fact that we don't think that lowering is as dangerous as rapping.

I don't buy that you've seen as many lowering issues than even threads about people rapping of the ends.. loosing control of their rap. threading their rope to only the 15m mark


tradmanclimbs


Oct 5, 2009, 10:23 AM
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Re: [jakedatc] Major Accident on the zorro face [In reply to]
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jake i used to rock rat. do that very rarely now and then usualy to be a nice guy and show a noob arround. I put myself in guide mode for that.

Recently a guide posted about falling off of WG and the client letting them fall a LOOOONG ways.. My only comment was, that is what clients are supposed to do. its up to the guide to NOT fall when guideing;)

As for all those rapping accidents most are not at sport areas. If you look you will most likly find that most of the lowering accidents are sport related and most of the rapping accidents are other.


jakedatc


Oct 5, 2009, 10:30 AM
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tradmanclimbs wrote:
jake i used to rock rat. do that very rarely now and then usualy to be a nice guy and show a noob arround. I put myself in guide mode for that.

Recently a guide posted about falling off of WG and the client letting them fall a LOOOONG ways.. My only comment was, that is what clients are supposed to do. its up to the guide to NOT fall when guideing;)

As for all those rapping accidents most are not at sport areas. If you look you will most likly find that most of the lowering accidents are sport related and most of the rapping accidents are other.

That's because most sport climbers who are worth anything are LOWERING OFF. you don't see lowering accidents at trad areas because they are not doing it!

you don't see motorcycle accidents at car races either


tradmanclimbs


Oct 5, 2009, 11:09 AM
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jake. i thought we wre talking about sport climbing? jay mentioned the ratio of rap accidents to lowering accidents. i was pointing out that while the lowering accidents were mostly sport related the rap accidents were all accross the spectrum so it is not a stat that can be easily computed...


jakedatc


Oct 5, 2009, 11:15 AM
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Re: [tradmanclimbs] Major Accident on the zorro face [In reply to]
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tradmanclimbs wrote:
jake. i thought we wre talking about sport climbing? jay mentioned the ratio of rap accidents to lowering accidents. i was pointing out that while the lowering accidents were mostly sport related the rap accidents were all accross the spectrum so it is not a stat that can be easily computed...

Ok so how can you say that lowering is more dangerous than rappelling?

we've pointed out that there is less chance for error in lowering, you keep stating statistic giberish that has no correlation

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