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xclimber47


Nov 28, 2009, 12:58 PM
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dSLR versus high-end point & shoot
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So I know this topic has probably been hit on before, but I didn't feel like sifting through hundreds of posts to find it..

I have experience with photography and manual camera settings, but have been using a film camera (gasp!). Its just too much trouble to develop photographs though and I'm looking at buying a new digital camera. I would like a quality camera, but I do not plan on trying to get photographs into magazines or anything, so I will not be spending $1000+ on a camera.

The main question is whether I would like to get a lower end dslr (still in the $5-700 range) or a high end point and shoot with manual settings. I'm leaning towards dslr, but point & shoot cameras like the canon G11 have incredible stats (14.7MP, 28-140mm lens, etc). The kicker is that dslrs are big/heavy. I'm not sure if I want to lug a camera like that on climbing trips, but I feel like spending $4-$500 on a point and shoot is a waste, even if it is a nice one.

Any thoughts?


Neel


Nov 28, 2009, 1:05 PM
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Re: [xclimber47] dSLR versus high-end point & shoot [In reply to]
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I went through this same debate a couple years ago and ended up getting a Canon G9 thinking that it was a good compromise. but what i found was that, for a P+S, it was still pretty big (wouldn't fit in my pocket unless i was wearing cargos), and although it had manual control, you still wouldn't be able to beat the image quality of even a mediocre lens on an slr when it came to things like depth of field, etc.

In the end i eventually gave up the G9 and got an SLR. I'll eventually pick up a cheap, small P+S for those times that i dont want to carry an slr around. I think if you know what you're doing you'll probably be disappointed unless you get an SLR. Something like that Canon T1i is relatively cheap, and i've seen people take some impressive shots with them.


irregularpanda


Nov 28, 2009, 3:32 PM
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Re: [xclimber47] dSLR versus high-end point & shoot [In reply to]
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xclimber47 wrote:
Any thoughts?

I'm about to get the Panasonic DMC LX3. So not really any thoughts, but just to consider that one as well. It's not a full SLR, but it has great (reportedly) manual settings.

Another one I heard about was the Olympus Pen. Sounds like a brilliant idea, but I think I'd trust it more after they come out with a 2nd or 3rd version of the camera first.


macblaze


Nov 28, 2009, 4:35 PM
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Re: [xclimber47] dSLR versus high-end point & shoot [In reply to]
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My friend the professional photographer would say get both... She has a couple of dslr's and olympus for underwater and bad conditions a couple more point and shoots for off- the cuff stuff.. etc. etc.

The point is there isn't a be all and end all for every situation. I have a Panasonic dmc-lz7. I love the size, the quality and the fact that it takes AAs so I never have to worry about running out of batteries when miles away from power. The aforementioned friend scoffs at it for its lack of detailed manual control, but she's SOL when her batteries go kaput.

Fit the camera to the adventure... Oh, and dslr's are waaaaay too bulky to be hanging off the back of your harness Wink


(This post was edited by macblaze on Nov 28, 2009, 4:36 PM)


Urban_Cowboy


Nov 28, 2009, 6:05 PM
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Re: [macblaze] dSLR versus high-end point & shoot [In reply to]
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I'm in the "both" camp. Got a Canon A590 p&S, good little camera; and a Canon Digital Rebel XSi, great dSLR on a "reasonable" budget. I'd also agree that a high-end p&s is a waste of money when you could get a decent dSLR for not much more. We still have a 35mm SLR, it'll be interesting to see what's on the film when it ever gets full...not sure when the last picture was taken with it.


yodadave


Nov 28, 2009, 6:05 PM
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i and my family have all loved our panasonics but all 3 of our dmcs have developed lens spots inside the camera. Its a real bummer because panasonics service options suck


kennoyce


Nov 28, 2009, 6:54 PM
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I would certainly recommend the dslr. If you know anything about photography then you need a dslr. I'm a Nikon guy, so for a cheap dslr I would recommend either the D40 (super cheap, but only 3 focus points), or the d5000 (more expensive, but has 11 focus points, active "D" lighting which helps with dynamic range, and a flip around screen to help keep it from scratching among other perks), plus the low end nikons feel so much nicer than a rebel and are even slightly smaller and have an ever so slightly larger sensor.

It is nice having a P&S for certain things (I have an olympus waterproof which works ok when I am not worried too much about IQ), but a high end P&S still has a tiny sensor with way to many pixels and the manual controls are usually a pain to use. You also need the larger sensor and lenses to have any real control of depth of field or other fun stuff.

Point of the story is you should first get a dslr, then get a cheap P&S to take when you don't want to carry the dslr.


maldaly


Nov 28, 2009, 10:01 PM
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I support kennoyce's statement but would buy in the reverse order. Get a good P&S (Can't beat the Canon S90 now. G10&11 are too much and not enough) then see what's lacking and buy (or not buy) a DSLR.
Best,
Mal


gimmeslack


Nov 29, 2009, 4:14 AM
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Re: [irregularpanda] dSLR versus high-end point & shoot [In reply to]
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I've obsessed over this question over the years as I drifted from great film cameras to digital. I recently bought the LX3 equivalent (Leica badged - only because I got a great deal and i wanted the packaged software).

Bottom line: quit expecting a compact to be as good as a DSLR. They are two different beasts. YES, both can take great photos. NO, the compact cannot do everything the SLR can.

When I can afford it, a full frame sensor DSLR is at the top of my shopping list...

And yes, the LX3 is an awesome camera ;-)


wes_allen


Nov 29, 2009, 6:26 AM
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Re: [xclimber47] dSLR versus high-end point & shoot [In reply to]
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Unless you are wanting to get published / go pro / make huge prints, the very best camera is the one you have with you. Period. So, what are you going to take around with you? I will carry a lot of photo gear to the crag if I am planning on doing a bit of shooting, but would probably have more photos overall if we had a smaller camera, though they might not be as good (good being very relative).

Hoping to buy a g11 next month as the camera we take everywhere. It can use an external flash and has great manual controls, the two requirements for me.

Otherwise, you really can't go wrong with any of the current lower end dslrs, though you might try to find a used one and spend the money on glass instead. In good light, images from my old 20d and the 135L are hard to tell from the 5dII, until you print really, really big.


macblaze


Nov 29, 2009, 8:39 AM
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Re: [wes_allen] dSLR versus high-end point & shoot [In reply to]
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wes_allen wrote:
Unless you are wanting to get published / go pro / make huge prints, the very best camera is the one you have with you. Period.

Here here! I ran across this site where a fellow has decided to take the equipment factor out of the art of photography and shoots using an iPhone camera... http://justwhatisee.com/


maldaly


Nov 29, 2009, 11:06 AM
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And don't forget Chase Jarvis' website and book, "The Best camera is the One You Have With you". Awesome coffee table book of just iPhone photography. I'm shooting my iPhone more and more but it is no replacement for a good P&S or a dSLR. It's fun and I get some crazy shots with it. Both of the attached are from a photo shoot where I had my full camera rig with me but chose to make these shots with my iPhone. Digital manipulation happened in-camera with the free Chase Jarvis App called The Best Camera.




(This post was edited by maldaly on Nov 29, 2009, 11:07 AM)


agdavis


Nov 29, 2009, 11:18 AM
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If you go the dSLR route, I would highly recommend getting a used one. Quality dSLRs such as canon and Nikon are built like tanks, so you would be wise to take advantage of the deep discounts. Cameras are a lot like cars -- as soon as you take them off the lot, their value drops by 30% -- same goes for dSLRs.


xclimber47


Nov 29, 2009, 1:46 PM
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cool, thanks for the thoughts, I just wanted to see some more opinions, and I think you guys have at least made me more confident in my decision. I'll probably be going the dslr route. Guess the next step is picking a model.. but I think I got it from here..


kriso9tails


Nov 29, 2009, 2:26 PM
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xclimber47 wrote:
I'll probably be going the dslr route. Guess the next step is picking a model.. but I think I got it from here..

If you're trying to keep the cost down, consider the compatibility with your old glass. On occasion I still grab older lenses (that I'm not going to buy newer versions of until I invest in a new body). Yes, certain functionality may be lost, but there are always ways to compensate, especially when you consider the type of latitude you get out of your RAW files.


pbnjonny


Nov 30, 2009, 12:23 AM
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Re: [maldaly] dSLR versus high-end point & shoot [In reply to]
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Mal's post probably brings up the most important thing for me, having a nice DSLR isn't going to do any good if its a hassle to take with you. You're never going to get a good picture if you're camera is left at home or in your car because its too big or heavy or what have you.

Personally as much as I love using DSLRs, there are too many instances where I want to have a camera that carrying around a whole kit just wouldn't work for me. So I went and bought a Panasonic LX3, although its still slightly too big to carry all the time, my pictures folder still has a lot more in it than if I only had a DSLR.

That said, I almost always try to take my dad's or a friends DSLR with me on climbing trips. The ability to switch lenses and having a much faster zoom and focus time is so much nicer and lets you get the shot you want to get more often.


JasonsDrivingForce


Nov 30, 2009, 6:58 AM
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I agree that there isnít a compact camera that can touch a DSLR in medium to low light. However, the new micro four thirds E.V.I.L(Electronic Viewfinder Interchangeable Lens) cameras are quite outstanding in outdoor light.

My Panasonic DMC-GF1with the 20mm F1.7 pancake is about the size of a Canon G series. It shoots amazing 720p video and awesome pictures. At $900 for the camera and lens it isnít cheap. However, it is well worth that price.

Check out this review and some sample videos below.

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/PanasonicGF1/

http://www.youtube.com/user/mpgxsvcd


(This post was edited by JasonsDrivingForce on Nov 30, 2009, 7:00 AM)


JasonsDrivingForce


Nov 30, 2009, 7:04 AM
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agdavis wrote:
If you go the dSLR route, I would highly recommend getting a used one. Quality dSLRs such as canon and Nikon are built like tanks, so you would be wise to take advantage of the deep discounts. Cameras are a lot like cars -- as soon as you take them off the lot, their value drops by 30% -- same goes for dSLRs.

Actually the Panasonic DMC-LX3 appreciated in value once everyone realized that Panasonic would not keep up with the US demand. Lotís of people were selling them used for $100-$200 above MSRP and people were actually buying them.

The new Panasonic GF1 is getting to be the same way. You canít find them for MSRP anywhere in the US and some people are already advertising them for $200-$300 above MSRP.

You have to also consider that REALLY good glass can hold its value as well.


(This post was edited by JasonsDrivingForce on Nov 30, 2009, 7:05 AM)


JasonsDrivingForce


Nov 30, 2009, 7:09 AM
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wes_allen wrote:
Hoping to buy a g11 next month as the camera we take everywhere. It can use an external flash and has great manual controls, the two requirements for me.

Wes, have you considered the micro four thirds? The Panasonic GF1 is about the same size as the G11, it has a hot shoe, full manual controls, HD video, and it can use your Canon Glass with an adapter.

The G11 is a great camera but there is no escaping its smaller sensor and mediocre glass.


JasonsDrivingForce


Nov 30, 2009, 10:17 PM
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Here are a few pics I took this weekend with the GF1. I think it did pretty well considering it is a compact camera under $1000.










(This post was edited by JasonsDrivingForce on Nov 30, 2009, 10:20 PM)


jnm1


Nov 30, 2009, 10:43 PM
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I recently bought the Olympus EP-1, also a micro four thirds. It's definitely a nice alternative to a dSLR and I've been really happy with the image quality and it's portability so far. It can also take the full size Zuiko Digital lenses.
(and of course now there's an EP-2!)

But the GF1 looks appealing with being able to use Canon lenses which I really like. I wonder if there has been a comparison between it and the EP-1 yet?


jnm1


Nov 30, 2009, 11:21 PM
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Nevermind. Did an internet search (which I should have done in the first place ) and it seems that almost every review compares it to the E-P1.
I got my E-P1 before the GF1 came out and now after looking at it (especially the weight - 26%less then the E-P1) I might have gone with the GF1.

Nice shots btw.


JasonsDrivingForce


Dec 1, 2009, 5:59 AM
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jnm1 wrote:
But the GF1 looks appealing with being able to use Canon lenses which I really like. I wonder if there has been a comparison between it and the EP-1 yet?

The good news is that I think your EP-1 can use all of the lenses that the GF1 can. They are both micro four thirds cameras. Just hop on ebay and buy the canon to micro four thirds adapter for $40-$100.

Your EP-1 also has in camera image stabilization which could come in handy with those 50+mm(100+mm eq.) prime lenses.

The EP-1 is a very fine camera. I went with the GF1 only because I like the AVC-HD lite format better than the mjpeg of the EP-1 or EP-2. I also like the built-in flash of the GF1. It actually works very well.


wes_allen


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Nope, the g11 is just fine for what we want. I will just bring the 5dII and some good glass if I am that worried about IQ. But, for web sized stuff and small prints, it is fine.

But, I will be having some fun playing with a flash sync of 1/2000...

JasonsDrivingForce wrote:
wes_allen wrote:
Hoping to buy a g11 next month as the camera we take everywhere. It can use an external flash and has great manual controls, the two requirements for me.

Wes, have you considered the micro four thirds? The Panasonic GF1 is about the same size as the G11, it has a hot shoe, full manual controls, HD video, and it can use your Canon Glass with an adapter.

The G11 is a great camera but there is no escaping its smaller sensor and mediocre glass.


JasonsDrivingForce


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Yes you will. Post some images from the G11 when you get it. I have only seen a few samples from reviews so far.


wes_allen wrote:
But, I will be having some fun playing with a flash sync of 1/2000...


(This post was edited by JasonsDrivingForce on Dec 1, 2009, 6:11 AM)


knudenoggin


Dec 2, 2009, 9:09 PM
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xclimber47 wrote:
I would like a quality camera, but I do not plan on trying to get photographs into magazines or anything, so I will not be spending $1000+ on a camera.

The main question is whether I would like to get a lower end dslr (still in the $5-700 range) or a high end point and shoot with manual settings. I'm leaning towards dslr, but point & shoot cameras like the canon G11 have incredible stats (14.7MP, 28-140mm lens, etc). The kicker is that dslrs are big/heavy. I'm not sure if I want to lug a camera like that on climbing trips, but I feel like spending $4-$500 on a point and shoot is a waste, even if it is a nice one.

Any thoughts?

First, the specs you quoted for the G11 are for the G10; the G11
interestingly has fewer MP (10), moving back to where the LX3
had stayed, one might muse.

You subsequently reiterated your leanings for a dSLR,
but frankly I think that you should get a good compact
and wait & research the dSLR. Someone mentioned a
difference in DoF: yeah, and I find that often that diff.
favors the compact's deep DoF with even big apertures
(LX3 @2.0-2.8), good for low light. True, if your goal
is to isolate w/shallow focus, you're SOL w/a compact,
but if you're taking climbing pics, that shouldn't be such
an issue.

Canon, Panasonic, and others have some great little
cameras. As for any dSLR being "built like a tank",
eh, I've often heard Canons derided for plastic-y feel.
I'm familiar with the D40, which when cycling is often
slung over the shoulder with the 55-200 VR will the
18-55 is in a pocket, but the LX3 often is used instead
for the wide (esp. as I like its variable aspect ratio
-- 4:3 and 16:9 being maybe most often used).

Take a browse on Flickr looking at sets of photos by
camera, and see what they can do. (Well, often what
their users can do, sometimes w/skillful Post-Processing.)

Used is a good path, too, but for <$400 you might prefer
new + warranty from reputable seller. (B&H, Adorama,
Amazon, Cameta Camera, ...) (Beware the real-cheap
scammers, though: they try to hardsell you stuff you do
NOT need, and if you refuse their BS, suddenly your order
becomes backordered.)

*kN*


xclimber47


Dec 8, 2009, 6:36 PM
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I've done more research and basically narrowed it down to 3 intermediate/beginner dslrs. One from canon, nikon, and pentax. Its really kind of splitting hairs at this point, and most likely up to personal preference, but my main question is about the pentax. Statistically it wins in almost every category, but I don't know if anyone had issues with pentax as a brand. My old film camera is pentax and I love it, but its about 30 years old..


kennoyce


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First of all I would have to say that I would drop the canon xsi from your list immediately. The entry level canons feel cheap, uncomfortable, and like they will break if you look at them wrong. I have no experience with the pentax, but I hear good things about them, plus if you used to shoot a pentax, chances are that your old glass will still work with it even if not all of the features are supported. As a climber, I think that the flip screen on the nikon would be awesome to help keep you from scratching it, but personally I would go with whatever you already have glass for.


knudenoggin


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The D5000 had some sort of intro issues, leading to a recall.

There were some raves about the K-x, with one fellow calling
it a poor man's D700 for high-ISO performance; but you will
find some dissent on all of this. (After referring it to someone
he replied that he was greatly underwhelmed after much shooting
with it ! YMMV, each to his own, ... .)

Read through posts on the DPReview's particular forums
(Nikon D90-D40/D5000, Pentax SLR talk) to get some
better feel for issues, capabilities.

*kN*


maldaly


Dec 8, 2009, 9:01 PM
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xclimber, be super-careful about comparing specs here. They are all good cameras and all are capable of helping you make great photos. It's all about how they handle. You need to know how fast you can bring it up to your eye and make the photo you see happening. How easy and intuitive is it to make quick exposure and/or flash compensation adjustments? Is the LCD good enough so that in bright daylight you can see what you made? Then can you make the necessary adjustments so that the next shot is right on? The adjustments I use all the time are flash compensation, exposure compensation, white balance, flash on/off, rear curtain sync, saturation adjustments. I shoot a Nikon D200 and can have 4 "banks" loaded with presets to adapt for a variety situations. Works great.

Good luck,
Mal


JasonsDrivingForce


Dec 8, 2009, 10:33 PM
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maldaly wrote:
You need to know how fast you can bring it up to your eye and make the photo you see happening.
Good luck,
Mal

With live view you don't even need to bring it up to your eye.Wink


Storjon


Dec 9, 2009, 5:38 AM
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No one has yet to mention Ricoh in this thread?

If you want DSLR control in a small capable package the GRD or GX series is the way to go.
You get direct shutter and aperture controll via two dials and can customize buttons for what you want, no typical PS-menu searching.

I have used a GRD for climbing and general point and shoot and loved it! Unfortunatley it got lost somewhere on Bali, but looking into getting a new one.

The only bummer is that the wideangle adapter (GW-1) wont fit the new GRD III and Ricoh stuff is a bit pricey.

Picture quality is good but handling is GREAT! Flash capable too.

Not a DSLR but the GRD series is hard to beat when camera size is critical.


Rudmin


Dec 9, 2009, 6:49 AM
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I picked up a cheap Nikon D60 DSLR and also have a small Fujifilm point and shoot. The Fuji stays in my chest pocket and can snap pictures really quick. The DSLR is for when I have time to stop and spend more time taking a picture.


gardy90


May 5, 2010, 11:14 PM
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macblaze wrote:
My friend the professional photographer would say get both... She has a couple of dslr's and olympus for underwater and bad conditions a couple more point and shoots for off- the cuff stuff.. etc. etc.

The point is there isn't a be all and end all for every situation. I have a Panasonic dmc-lz7. I love the size, the quality and the fact that it takes AAs so I never have to worry about running out of batteries when miles away from power. The aforementioned friend scoffs at it for its lack of detailed manual control, but she's SOL when her batteries go kaput.

Fit the camera to the adventure... Oh, and dslr's are waaaaay too bulky to be hanging off the back of your harness Wink
my d90 will take AA :)


rkepley_1


May 6, 2010, 1:37 AM
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If you're thinking of getting the Nikon d5000, you might as well shell out the few extra hundred dollars for the d90. The d5000 lacks an autofocus motor in the body which will limit which lenses you can use. The d90 is a great camera I am very happy with.


pico23


May 6, 2010, 6:58 PM
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xclimber47 wrote:
So I know this topic has probably been hit on before, but I didn't feel like sifting through hundreds of posts to find it..


Any thoughts?


It sounds to me like you want 1) Control 2) quality 3) compactness.


Take a look at the Samsung NX10 or the Olympus Pen series.

Both give you higher end quality in a very compact package.

Both the Pen series and NX10 (NX5 is forthcoming) are still early in the EVIL camera wars (an EVIL camera is a interchangable lens digital camera sans mirror)

The Samsung should give a little better IQ since the sensor is bigger but the lenses are still smaller since they have eliminated some register distance without the mirror box.

The Canon G11 is about the same size at the Olympus Pen series, and only a little smaller than the Samsung NX10. However, the IQ above ISO 200 isn't even comparable (and this is after Canon made huge strides from the G10 to G11).

Personally, if you were going with a non weather sealed digital compact (a better name for a point and shoot), I'd recommend the Canon S90. The IQ is the same as the G11 (same sensor), but it has a faster lens. Plus, it's significantly more compact.

Samsung has a bunch of lenses coming out for the NX series (20mm f/2.8, 30mm f/2, 20-50 f/3.5-4.5), and there is also a K to NX adapter so you can use any k mount lens, however, the adapter is as limited as the Olympus Pen adapter. Not necessarily terrible, but you have no automation with the camera lens.

As far as point and shoot being a waste, well the IQ will ultimately disappoint you if you expect to print or sell your shots, but truthfully for most people simply posting to the web or printing 8x10 or smaller, the IQ will be just fine. Plus, unless photography is really a passion (or a paycheck) it's a heck of a lot easier to be pumped about carting around a shirt pocket sized S90 than even a compact DSLR.

To me the Pen/NX10 EVIL cameras are the compromise for those people anyway!


pico23


May 6, 2010, 7:01 PM
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JasonsDrivingForce wrote:
maldaly wrote:
You need to know how fast you can bring it up to your eye and make the photo you see happening.
Good luck,
Mal

With live view you don't even need to bring it up to your eye.Wink

Yeah, but the LCD needs to overpower the sun, and honestly, I have never found an LCD that can beat hazy mid day sun!!! Sorry, this is why cameras have either mirrors and prism finders or eye level EVFs.


pico23


May 6, 2010, 7:10 PM
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knudenoggin wrote:
The D5000 had some sort of intro issues, leading to a recall.

There were some raves about the K-x, with one fellow calling
it a poor man's D700 for high-ISO performance; but you will
find some dissent on all of this. (After referring it to someone
he replied that he was greatly underwhelmed after much shooting
with it ! YMMV, each to his own, ... .)

Read through posts on the DPReview's particular forums
(Nikon D90-D40/D5000, Pentax SLR talk) to get some
better feel for issues, capabilities.

*kN*

Unfortunately there are 2 issues .

1) Why would a trust a person that was underwhelmed when almost every major magazine and review site has nothing but praise for the K-x, which other than a few issues is pretty much the far and away the best entry level DSLR ever produced, and most review sites while not going quite that far, call it a steal and a redefinition of entry level.

2) the build of the K-x simply makes the other entry level cameras look like the toys they are (and if you don't believe me hold one next to a similar priced DSLR). Considering it's $470 WITH the well reviewed kit lens (won Pop Photos kit lens shootout) I'd say the only thing underwhelming would be the price!


pico23


May 6, 2010, 7:35 PM
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In reply to:
I have no experience with the pentax, but I hear good things about them, plus if you used to shoot a pentax, chances are that your old glass will still work with it even if not all of the features are supported.

Well it depends...what model Pentax do you have. 30 years would probably be pre SMC-A. I'm guessing you have a KX, MX, ME, or the K1000. The ME would be my guess Crazy

So the lens would do everything (including image stabilization, which works quite well!) but electronic aperture. If you have "A" glass (if it has an A setting on the aperture ring after the F/22, it's an A) then 100% of the settings work except (obviously) AF.

Also, screw mount lenses work with a $15 adapter. So all those old Takumars or any M42 glass will work.

Because Pentax "professional" is 645 and 67 format (the 645D is released in Japan currently, should go world wide next year) they don't have to play the games Nikon and Canon do by cheaping out on lower end cameras to keep people from adding a lower priced body to the bag as a backup. Sure they've been a bit more prone to it over the last few years to differentiate DSLR product, but for the most part all cameras above $600 have all the bells and whistles. Only the entry level cameras get the short stick, and even then it's arguable the features omitted are not necessary to the people most likely to buy the camera.

As an example, the K-7 which I just picked up for $850 shipped to my door, is pretty comparatively spec'd to the Canon 7D and Nikon D300S. But it's almost half the price. As far as build, it's built better than both, it's also got the same level of sealing at the top end Canon/Nikon models. Of course it's also 20% smaller than the D300S and that is a really nice thing!

Malcom noted ergonomics, but you'll often notice in reviews (check the recent Pop Photo review) that Pentax is routinely praised for ergonomics. Obviously button placement and control layout is subjective, but generally Pentax pleases more people than it pisses off.


Finally, K-x has the unique advantage of AA batteries. Some people consider this a disadvantage, but consider it gets well over 1000 shots on a set of NiMH batteries which are extremely cheap and readily available. Beyond that, if you are traveling off the grid or in the cold, the K-x gets about 2000 shots on 4 AA lithiums and they'll work down to -40F. Personally, not wanting to deal with charging, I almost always just put AA lithiums in my DSLRs that support AA batteries. The cost per year is quite small (less than $50) and I never have to worry about charging or running out of juice at a bad time.


guangzhou


May 6, 2010, 7:44 PM
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Like you, I was dedicated to Pentax, but they didn't switch to Digital when I did. Instead, I went with the Nikon Line.

My camera of choice right now is the Nikon D90. It shoots video, but I haven't used that option yet.

On the other hand, I don't put much stock in Photography magazine review these days. As someone who has written review for various magazines about things not related to photogrpahy, I can honestly say that advertising dollars play a large role in the editors editing.

Mountain Vison blog is active again, good to see it.


pico23


May 6, 2010, 8:41 PM
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guangzhou wrote:
Like you, I was dedicated to Pentax, but they didn't switch to Digital when I did. Instead, I went with the Nikon Line.

My camera of choice right now is the Nikon D90. It shoots video, but I haven't used that option yet.

On the other hand, I don't put much stock in Photography magazine review these days. As someone who has written review for various magazines about things not related to photogrpahy, I can honestly say that advertising dollars play a large role in the editors editing.

Mountain Vison blog is active again, good to see it.

Man I have tons of backdated blogs that were waiting for photos to put up. I finally caught up with images, finally started getting back out again around New Years, and the blog is rolling again. Really it's been a busy few months.

As far as Pop Photo, a lot of things annoy me, but their lens test and camera test are about 75% bench testing. Thus if a sensor performs well or poorly no amount of advertising dollars will fix it. Likewise, no amount of advertising dollars will fix a dog of a lens on a SQF test. Now the subjective testing is what lacks in Pop Photo, as does the advice sections which are all based on making you believe you need something new, thus driving advertisers to pay to be in the magazine.

If you want good subjective testing/evaluation, photo.net is the place to look, as well as many other smaller testing sites.

Besides, Pentax doesn't advertise...seriously, count the pages!!! Pentax decided to pull out of print advertising since it's target market was internet savy.

It pretty much only does 1 page or one back cover per printed issue, if it has any advertising at all. Instead it's hedging it's bets that pennies per click online cost work. It's really not a bad plan for a company who's yearly net revenues roughly equal Canons yearly advertising budget.

Pentax was late to the digital show, but it's produced camera after camera of award winning design since 2006 without a single model ever retailing for more than $1500, well until the freshly released $9000 645D! Expect it to be the 2010 camera of the year on 3 continents for the fact that it has the same sensor as the $20K hasselblads but cost half as much and is sealed!


guangzhou


May 6, 2010, 9:18 PM
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pico23 wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
Like you, I was dedicated to Pentax, but they didn't switch to Digital when I did. Instead, I went with the Nikon Line.

My camera of choice right now is the Nikon D90. It shoots video, but I haven't used that option yet.

On the other hand, I don't put much stock in Photography magazine review these days. As someone who has written review for various magazines about things not related to photogrpahy, I can honestly say that advertising dollars play a large role in the editors editing.

Mountain Vison blog is active again, good to see it.

Man I have tons of backdated blogs that were waiting for photos to put up. I finally caught up with images, finally started getting back out again around New Years, and the blog is rolling again. Really it's been a busy few months.

As far as Pop Photo, a lot of things annoy me, but their lens test and camera test are about 75% bench testing. Thus if a sensor performs well or poorly no amount of advertising dollars will fix it. Likewise, no amount of advertising dollars will fix a dog of a lens on a SQF test. Now the subjective testing is what lacks in Pop Photo, as does the advice sections which are all based on making you believe you need something new, thus driving advertisers to pay to be in the magazine.

If you want good subjective testing/evaluation, photo.net is the place to look, as well as many other smaller testing sites.

Besides, Pentax doesn't advertise...seriously, count the pages!!! Pentax decided to pull out of print advertising since it's target market was internet savy.

It pretty much only does 1 page or one back cover per printed issue, if it has any advertising at all. Instead it's hedging it's bets that pennies per click online cost work. It's really not a bad plan for a company who's yearly net revenues roughly equal Canons yearly advertising budget.

Pentax was late to the digital show, but it's produced camera after camera of award winning design since 2006 without a single model ever retailing for more than $1500, well until the freshly released $9000 645D! Expect it to be the 2010 camera of the year on 3 continents for the fact that it has the same sensor as the $20K hasselblads but cost half as much and is sealed!

Wow, I agree with everything you wrote. A bit unusual on this site.

E


knudenoggin


May 7, 2010, 11:42 PM
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pico23 wrote:
Pentax was late to the digital show, but it's produced camera after camera of award winning design since 2006 without a single model ever retailing for more than $1500, well until the freshly released $9000 645D! Expect it to be the 2010 camera of the year on 3 continents for the fact that it has the same sensor as the $20K hasselblads but cost half as much and is sealed!

Wow, late to this thread, but one stroked fan boy !!! Tongue

(I'm seeing "Pico has replied ..." and thinking "Huh, I've not touched
the RC.photo forum for ... ?!" )

So, in the K-x, Pentax steps away from Samsung and uses the
Sony sensor used in the D5000/D90/D300 ? (and probably in some
Sonys themselves); but there's more to it than that. I happened
across a K-x user in a festival recently; looked like it might be
small for some comfort in big hands, which was part of my "YMMV".
Camera reviews in many mag.s read pretty predictably and often
damn lamely. But I'm all for K-x and K-7 and ... sure liked how
an a700 fit in my hands (an acquaintance's), but that's an "old"
camera -- as though that sinks the ship (says he thinkin' about
a D2Hs maybe: how UNmegapixel'd is that!?).

As for sealed Hasselblads (or not), that line of argument got quite
an airing on GetDPI's review of the Leica S2 (not going for under
$500, btw --hell, you can't get accessories for it under that ...),
with many Hassy (or Phase) users both recounting what their tools
had been through w/o trouble ("sealed" or not), and how often
that was going to be an issue for such a camera anyway.

Now, the REAL joy in the K-x are its colors -- outside !

Shocked


gosharks


May 8, 2010, 2:31 AM
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knudenoggin wrote:
So, in the K-x, Pentax steps away from Samsung and uses the
Sony sensor used in the D5000/D90/D300 ? (and probably in some
Sonys themselves); but there's more to it than that.
Put another way, Pentax has used Sony sensors in all their DSLRs except the K20D and K7.


pico23


May 10, 2010, 7:16 PM
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knudenoggin wrote:

Wow, late to this thread, but one stroked fan boy !!! Tongue
Now, the REAL joy in the K-x are its colors -- outside !

Shocked

Not really a stoked fanboy so much as a corrector of misconceptions, or rather misinformation. Keep in mind for every 1 Pentax shooter there are 9 Canikon. Now break down the 9 Canikon shooters 7 are misinformed blind fanboys (as clearly evidenced on most forums), 1 is knowledgeable but a fanboy, and 1 is probably just a guy using a tool that works.


The K-x does use a Sony sensor, but only 2 cameras have EVER been released without a Sony sensor by Pentax. The K20D and K-7. It's arguable but that the K20D and K-7 perhaps have the best sub 640 ISO IQ of any APS-C camera to date. It's really not known how much collaboration Samsung and Pentax actually have. It seems all Samsung lenses to date were just Pentax clones, and all Samsung DSLRs were just Pentax clones. I'm guessing Pentax traded that stuff for Samsungs electronics technology (sensors, processing engines, etc). With Hoya now owning Pentax I'm guessing this partnership is a little less important for Pentax.

Size of the camera is interesting. It's completely personal. Some people (myself included) prefer a compact camera. My K-7 is 20% smaller than the D300S, I have absolutely no desire to cart a D300 size camera around for anything other than sports. I've used both the D300 and D2H, and personally I see no advantage to the size, but others might. It's just that when it gets to the point the camera is bigger and heavier than my 645N, I'd prefer to get medium format quality from it! Some people do associate camera size with professionalism and/or quality. More power to em. I'm all about how small the kit can get while making no compromises to my final product.

My guess is most people not getting paid to dangle a camera probably don't really want to break their backs carting one around. So small well built cameras have a niche market that neither Nikon or Canon have actually addressed.

As far as the Hassy system, correct but missing the bigger picture. Pentax isn't going after the Hassy buyer, it's got Nikon and Canons 24x36mm market in it's sights. If you check some of the forums there is already rumblings of defection IF (and I don't see why not) the 645D is as good as advertised.

Nevertheless, assuming the 645D is on par with the Hassy I'm pretty confident this is a situation Hassy, Mamiya, Leaf, Phase One and others didn't want to be in. Pentax already took the market once, do they really want to find out if it can happen a second time?

Seems like Pentax is just repeating what it did in the analog/film market. letting Nikon and Canon have the smaller format "professional" market, while feasting on the medium format market.


guangzhou


May 10, 2010, 9:33 PM
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pico23 wrote:
knudenoggin wrote:

Wow, late to this thread, but one stroked fan boy !!! Tongue
Now, the REAL joy in the K-x are its colors -- outside !

Shocked

Not really a stoked fanboy so much as a corrector of misconceptions, or rather misinformation. Keep in mind for every 1 Pentax shooter there are 9 Canikon. Now break down the 9 Canikon shooters 7 are misinformed blind fanboys (as clearly evidenced on most forums), 1 is knowledgeable but a fanboy, and 1 is probably just a guy using a tool that works.

Yes, yes, yes, Pentax users are smart, and Nikon/Canon users are suckers. We got it.


In reply to:
The K-x does use a Sony sensor, but only 2 cameras have EVER been released without a Sony sensor by Pentax. The K20D and K-7. It's arguable but that the K20D and K-7 perhaps have the best sub 640 ISO IQ of any APS-C camera to date. It's really not known how much collaboration Samsung and Pentax actually have. It seems all Samsung lenses to date were just Pentax clones, and all Samsung DSLRs were just Pentax clones. I'm guessing Pentax traded that stuff for Samsungs electronics technology (sensors, processing engines, etc). With Hoya now owning Pentax I'm guessing this partnership is a little less important for Pentax.

If it's a Sony Sensor, why not cut out Pentax, the middleman and go directly with Sony.

In reply to:
Size of the camera is interesting. It's completely personal. Some people (myself included) prefer a compact camera. My K-7 is 20% smaller than the D300S, I have absolutely no desire to cart a D300 size camera around for anything other than sports. I've used both the D300 and D2H, and personally I see no advantage to the size, but others might. It's just that when it gets to the point the camera is bigger and heavier than my 645N, I'd prefer to get medium format quality from it! Some people do associate camera size with professionalism and/or quality. More power to em. I'm all about how small the kit can get while making no compromises to my final product.

I agree, the size is personal preference. My wife has small hands and that effects her choice when buying.

What would be kool is if the camera industry started making left handed cameras. A nice niche market.

In reply to:
My guess is most people not getting paid to dangle a camera probably don't really want to break their backs carting one around. So small well built cameras have a niche market that neither Nikon or Canon have actually addressed.

Most pros buy camera that meet their needs. Canon and Nikon seem to top the pros list, which makes them suckers on your list.
Small cameras, they'll be there one day, the question is how do you get good, sharp images without a big lens. I think shrinking lenses would be more interesting and effective then smaller cameras. my lenses outweigh my bodies.

In reply to:
As far as the Hassy system, correct but missing the bigger picture. Pentax isn't going after the Hassy buyer, it's got Nikon and Canons 24x36mm market in it's sights. If you check some of the forums there is already rumblings of defection IF (and I don't see why not) the 645D is as good as advertised.

Nevertheless, assuming the 645D is on par with the Hassy I'm pretty confident this is a situation Hassy, Mamiya, Leaf, Phase One and others didn't want to be in. Pentax already took the market once, do they really want to find out if it can happen a second time?

Seems like Pentax is just repeating what it did in the analog/film market. letting Nikon and Canon have the smaller format "professional" market, while feasting on the medium format market.

Yes, they seem to be doing the same thing as in the analogue market, waiting so long that every has already bought into an existing system.


pico23


May 10, 2010, 10:05 PM
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Now we have the real fanboys chiming in.

What is funny, is as much a fanboy as I am, I didn't even mention pentax in my original post on this thread.

Here was my final line...

In reply to:
To me the Pen/NX10 EVIL cameras are the compromise for those people anyway!

I only mentioned it after the OP said, he'd decided to go the DSLR route and narrowed it down to 3 cameras. One being a Pentax. Had his 3 cameras been another brand I'd have said nothing, there are tons of threads on here i don't comment on. There are others however, who post to every thread regardless of the topic with the same nonsense.

So explain how I'm the one not being logical again?

Nah, thanks for playing. Keep being drones spewing magazine ads out your ass. Nothing like not having the ability to free think one bit.

As far as Sony, dude, you do realize your precious D90 and D70 were Sony sensors right? Why the hell don't you just cut out the middle man? Why aren't you shooting Sony? I'll tell you why. Sony makes crappy electronics, and worse cameras. It bought Minolta AND HAS NEVER TURNED A PROFIT ON THE DSLR division for even 1 single quarter in 4 years. Let me tell you what would happen to Pentax if it was in the red every year for 4 years...the DSLR business would be canned and they'd just make medical instruments and binoculars. It's that simple. Pentax has survived because it makes quality products at a fair price, not because its the second largest electronics company in the world!

You're the one that got insulting. Canon and Nikon make great cameras for sports and photojournalism which they have battled heavily and at great cost to corner, a battle that almost put your precious Nikon out of business, for everything else everyone competes on a fairly level playing field. Most people buying a camera and asking questions on these forums are not going into a career in sports and photojournalism. Thus, they can cross that off the list for buying a camera. Once you do that you now have a whole world opened to you. What makes people idiots is when they paint themselves into a corner based on criteria that don't exist to them. You've painted a corner, and then you have to justify it.

It's exactly like when people buy a house sized SUV for exactly one family vacation a year, then complain about the cost of gas and maintenance. Uh, why not rent a van for 2 weeks, and buy something smaller for 50 weeks of daily driving? Duh, this is the "what if you get into professional sports and photojournalism" argument perfectly analogized. If that happens, buying changing systems would probably be the least of your concerns.

I'm not going to even bother replying to your line by line post guangzhou. just keep drumming up your micro stock career while spewing nonsense with absolutely no benefit to anyone.

Regardless of if I am a fanboy (which is odd considering I routinely recommend all sorts of brands based on the users stated needs), I can state my reasons for being a fanboy, you on the other hand are a drone. And really, there is nothing in my mind worse than those incapable of thinking for themselves. So calling you a drone is the biggest insult I could possibly bestow upon your!

Go back to your advertorials and enjoy your Ashton Kutcher man crush!

(and by the way, left handed cameras would be sweet, as someone with left eye dominance it would make seeing around the camera easier with my eye to the view finder)


guangzhou


May 10, 2010, 11:02 PM
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Re: [pico23] dSLR versus high-end point & shoot [In reply to]
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In reply to:
I'm not going to even bother replying to your line by line post guangzhou. just keep drumming up your micro stock career while spewing nonsense with absolutely no benefit to anyone.

I have not mentioned the micros here in quite some time. It's nice piece of m extra income, but hardly my career. It pays for my camera gear, some travel on occasions, so I'm not complaining. I do sell RM too.

Regardless:

How much rock climbing do you do? Just curious. I think you'd be a great big wall partner. You're passionate and think too. A wonderful combination in my book.

I just get the impression you're here to brag about photogrpahy and have next to no experience on the rock. I do like you photos, so no worries.


As for the left handed camera, I agree.


(This post was edited by guangzhou on May 10, 2010, 11:27 PM)


knudenoggin


May 11, 2010, 8:32 AM
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Re: [pico23] dSLR versus high-end point & shoot [In reply to]
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I hope you appreciate (seem to) the Wink that came along with my "fanboy" zing.
Still, we can envision you soaring into the Networld with a caped lycra outfit with a big "Px" on it, eh.

Interesting re the Sony/non- sensor use; I'd thought that it was Pentax's first (and quite interesting that they changed from 10d to 20d, an upgrade!?).

All I can say is that reading user & other reviews of
cameras,
lenses,
post-processing software
one comes away without any clear "winner", and much doubt, finding directly contradictory assertions, et cetera. And to which of these components should one credit the IQ (along with user skill/error) ?!

Sony's a900 (a850) has been praised for color fidelity, and with enough MP to sway some to swap away their MF gear;
Canon's 5D seems a well-regarded IQ legend;
many swear by the sweetness in low ISO of D2x(s), yet some seem to favor the few-big-MP D2hs.
There are debates of any difference between Panasonic's LX3 and the $2-300 pricier Leica D-Lux4 clone (for which one can pay extra for a grip!).
And so on.

AF was a fault frequently cited vs. Pentax; and I'm curious at one fellow's not liking the K-7 sensor.

For me, I'd like to see them all in the game,
and esp. one with a history of respected gear, Pentax.

Sony seems to have --as Nikon booster Thom Hogan quipped-- gone for a "shotgun" approach in releasing oodles of models, while leaving their legion of a700 supporters antsy about what might or might not be in store for them.

IQ debates frequently go to micro-inspection details that beg the question of relevance.

And in the past couple years, one long-lived, respected photographer Willy Ronis died and it was asserted --on a DPR Pentax forum, IIRC-- that he used (in his LONG life) only >>3<< cameras, one being a rather non-exciting Pentax with unextraordinary everything. Today, one can read some newbie's post about a needed upgrade to do better things ... having gotten an XTi, say, and should it be a 40D or 50D or TL1 ... !! Makes ya smile or sigh.

- - - - - - - - -

As for a left-handed camera, eh, hmmmm: I'd thought something similar for cars --build one really designed for SHORT (tall) folks; there's surely a big re-sell market.
But for L-H cam.s, hmmm, you've got folks already using something, and then the concerns about re-sale: I think it'd be a tough sell (plus, L-H would be the one common factor, but then you have all the other things to consider: duplicate your entire line with L-H options?).

- - - - - - - - -

Size? Certainly small is coming on strong, with M4/3 such as Panasonic's G* series, Oly's E-P*, and Sigma DP*, among others. And Canon's S90 shows how much potential one can pack into a pocket. Which is all only going to get better. (But wasn't it interesting to see the 14.7mp G10 go up against the 10mp LX3 and a 10mp G11 & S90 resulted? Hogan's assertion is that for the APS-C the 7D's 18mp is near the limit.)

*kN*

postscript:
Lemme close with a plug for "what one can do"
with such minimal gear as Nikon's low-end D40:
http://www.ianbramham.com

and one of my early fav.s

http://www.ianbramham.com/photo_3343806.html

(I kinda prefer Ian's added-value PP of it in this version:)
http://ianbramham.aminus3.com/portfolio/195.html

(esp. as, er hem (self-headpat), I suggested its title :o)

and, a shot done way back that won a DPR Challenge,
and is anyway many's fav.:
http://ianbramham.aminus3.com/portfolio/234.html
--to wit, in print:
http://ianbramham.aminus3.com/portfolio/30.html

Instead of agonizing over the pixel-level nuances,
and the NextBesThing imminent to make Life better,
Ian was out learning to use a cheap-o D40
(and he likes the ND filters), with non-pro glass .
(Not even a K10d and fine Pentax primes.)

And, yeah, there are a LOT of great photos to be found out in the worlds of Flickr, etc.; www.ukclimbing.com's photo collection is rich with great climbing/alpine shots, e.g..


(-;


kachoong


May 11, 2010, 8:42 AM
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Re: [pico23] dSLR versus high-end point & shoot [In reply to]
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Sony now has an interesting addition to the interchangeable lense market with the NEX-3 and NEX-5.


guangzhou


May 11, 2010, 5:40 PM
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pico23 wrote:
Now we have the real fanboys chiming in.

What is funny, is as much a fanboy as I am, I didn't even mention pentax in my original post on this thread.

Here was my final line...

In reply to:
To me the Pen/NX10 EVIL cameras are the compromise for those people anyway!

I only mentioned it after the OP said, he'd decided to go the DSLR route and narrowed it down to 3 cameras. One being a Pentax. Had his 3 cameras been another brand I'd have said nothing, there are tons of threads on here i don't comment on. There are others however, who post to every thread regardless of the topic with the same nonsense.

So explain how I'm the one not being logical again?

Nah, thanks for playing. Keep being drones spewing magazine ads out your ass. Nothing like not having the ability to free think one bit.

As far as Sony, dude, you do realize your precious D90 and D70 were Sony sensors right? Why the hell don't you just cut out the middle man? Why aren't you shooting Sony? I'll tell you why. Sony makes crappy electronics, and worse cameras. It bought Minolta AND HAS NEVER TURNED A PROFIT ON THE DSLR division for even 1 single quarter in 4 years. Let me tell you what would happen to Pentax if it was in the red every year for 4 years...the DSLR business would be canned and they'd just make medical instruments and binoculars. It's that simple. Pentax has survived because it makes quality products at a fair price, not because its the second largest electronics company in the world!

You're the one that got insulting. Canon and Nikon make great cameras for sports and photojournalism which they have battled heavily and at great cost to corner, a battle that almost put your precious Nikon out of business, for everything else everyone competes on a fairly level playing field. Most people buying a camera and asking questions on these forums are not going into a career in sports and photojournalism. Thus, they can cross that off the list for buying a camera. Once you do that you now have a whole world opened to you. What makes people idiots is when they paint themselves into a corner based on criteria that don't exist to them. You've painted a corner, and then you have to justify it.

It's exactly like when people buy a house sized SUV for exactly one family vacation a year, then complain about the cost of gas and maintenance. Uh, why not rent a van for 2 weeks, and buy something smaller for 50 weeks of daily driving? Duh, this is the "what if you get into professional sports and photojournalism" argument perfectly analogized. If that happens, buying changing systems would probably be the least of your concerns.

I'm not going to even bother replying to your line by line post guangzhou. just keep drumming up your micro stock career while spewing nonsense with absolutely no benefit to anyone.

Regardless of if I am a fanboy (which is odd considering I routinely recommend all sorts of brands based on the users stated needs), I can state my reasons for being a fanboy, you on the other hand are a drone. And really, there is nothing in my mind worse than those incapable of thinking for themselves. So calling you a drone is the biggest insult I could possibly bestow upon your!

Go back to your advertorials and enjoy your Ashton Kutcher man crush!

(and by the way, left handed cameras would be sweet, as someone with left eye dominance it would make seeing around the camera easier with my eye to the view finder)

I just reread this and realized I might have hurt your feeling.

You are correct about on thing. I am known for following the herd. avoid places and climbs others haven't done a over and over. I don't travel to places off the beaten path. And I only buy what I read about in magazine. Good to know you figured me out so well.


knudenoggin


May 16, 2010, 11:23 PM
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Re: [pico23] dSLR versus high-end point & shoot [In reply to]
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pico23 wrote:
knudenoggin wrote:
Keep in mind for every 1 Pentax shooter there are 9 Canikon.

And a fellow's on FM wanting the high-ISO of a D700,
and a fine-arts (and other) photographer I met this
weekend wanted that, too, and so got a Canon 7D
-- and she also wants ZOOM lenses, not just all
those Pentax primes.
She has been with K10d, & now K20d (and also had an
*IST?); and went w/Canon vs. Nikon for the high-ISO
partly against Nikon's heavy zooms, for concerts !?

Anyway, she had nice (smallish, mostly) shots, IMO:
www.hroephoto.com
PENTAX.

Smile


Paulbmounds


May 31, 2010, 8:53 PM
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Re: [xclimber47] dSLR versus high-end point & shoot [In reply to]
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I have printed 30 X 40 inches with no noticeable noise and or grain from an 8 MP camera(Olympus C8080). For weddings I don't go above 4 MP if the largest print my client wants is 8 1/2 X 11 inch prints, even though my cameras all shoot much higher MP. I can't see it and neither can my customer, the lower MP selected, so why shoot it? If I am going for the equivalent of a contact priint that is 4 X 5 inches from a 4 X 5 inch negative/transparency, then I shoot at maximum MP. An ideal 8 MP camera is the Olympus C8080 Wide, but it is very slow and was $800 when I bought it in 2004, but it is still going strong and the optics are super sharp. A very slow camera, impossible for stopping action unless I am panning with the subject.


Paulbmounds


May 31, 2010, 9:23 PM
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Nilon Coolpix P90 [In reply to]
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This Nikon for $400 or the Fuji for $300 look like ideal cameras for you. Prices are from Freestyle Camera in Los Angeles, one of the best companies to deal with, mainly a school and government source for film and darkroom products. They and Calumet Photographic are excellent companies, although Calumet is geared for the pro. Freestyle sells cameras like the Hoya 120 format for about $40.




JasonsDrivingForce


Jun 7, 2010, 9:32 PM
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Re: [kachoong] dSLR versus high-end point & shoot [In reply to]
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kachoong wrote:
Sony now has an interesting addition to the interchangeable lense market with the NEX-3 and NEX-5.

Sad to see that these cameras received such a poor review. I really wanted to like them. However, it seems like they are more for show than actually showing what they can do.

http://www.dpreview.com/...yNex5Nex3/page17.asp


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