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Accident on Mt. Lemmon
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Partner robdotcalm


Dec 7, 2009, 8:19 PM
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Accident on Mt. Lemmon
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The following accident report appeared on Mt. Project.
http://www.mountainproject.com/..._mt_lemmon/106622608

The opinions expressed are sufficiently mystifying and unique that I thought some here might find it of interest.

« Hey fellow climbers. I wanted to make a note on this climb after an accident a climber I was belaying had on this route on friday December 4th 2009. As we know a lot of routes on Mt. Lemmon have a pretty good run-out to the first bolt. With this climb there is a long run out to the first safety bolt. The climber did not know this was a mixed route and started the climb. After making the first 15ft to the fist bolt he realized it was a trad route and despite my plea to come down he decided to attempt the 15 ft run out to the second safety bolt with no gear. (climber ego got in the way). While clipping the second bolt the climber fell 30 ft to the rock below. I was the belayer on the fall and was able to slow him down enough that he didn't die. The climber broke his L1 &L2 vertebrae and his right arm. If the climber was prepared and had studied up (like he said he did) this fall could have been avoided.This is a great, easy, fun climb with the appropriate gear. Bolts and small cams (1-2's will work great) I now have 2nd degree rope burns on my right hand from creating tension on his line to slow him down. I couldn't run backwards because of a large tree located in the belay spot. I now know to take a different spot while belaying but even still i am not confident a run backwards would have slowed him down adequately to achieve the same result. The climber had to be heli-vac'd off the mountain, it took 3 hours total to get him down. It took 45 minutes for the first rescue personnel to arrive on scene. I learned a lot from this accident and I hope the climber did too.»

From a second post by the belayer


« learned a few lessons:
1. A climber cant climb without a belay. I was never really aware that I could refuse a belay on a more experienced climber even if the climber is insistent.
2. As a belayer I also have the authority to lower a climber down if he/she does not listen to me mid route. In this case I told him to come down at the first clip... knowing what i know now i should have lowered him down when he was sitting at that clip.
3. It the responsibility of all parties on the mountain to research routes before climbing them.
4. Although I was wearing belay gloves they were too big and did not fully protect my fingers, so having the right size gloves is very important.
5. Check your belay spot, make sure there is enough room to make evasive maneuvers in case of a fall like running backwards or jumping off a ledge. (in my case would not of helped my climber because of the rate of fall and the weight difference between us)
6. Flip flops make great splinting tools
7. Carry extra webbing to make gear if need be.
8. Leave your ego at base camp
9. Climbers and belayers have a symbiotic relationship. The climber needs to make sure the route they are choosing to climb will also be a safe route to belay.
10. I know you are not supposed to pull on the rope for risk of injury, and i know that having 2 injuries on the mt is way worse then one. In this case pulling on the rope was the only way to save his life... I would want a belayer to do the same thing for me. Many climbers out there say I was wrong and that they would just take slack, break, and pray... Me? I would much rather have 2 concussions then one casket. If i was in the same situation again: I would pull the rope and this is after days of reflection. This experience has made me very aware of the people I climb with, and they qualities I expect from a partner.»

Gratias et valete bene!
RobertusPunctumPacificus


patto


Dec 7, 2009, 8:58 PM
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Re: [robdotcalm] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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Sounds like a silly mistake by the leader.

May I ask how you got your rope burns? Was it on your brake hand and was your brake hand below the device or behind your at your side? Or where you busy taking in rope?


jakedatc


Dec 8, 2009, 7:02 AM
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Re: [patto] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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patto wrote:
Sounds like a silly mistake by the leader.

May I ask how you got your rope burns? Was it on your brake hand and was your brake hand below the device or behind your at your side? Or where you busy taking in rope?

patto rob was not the OP. he's just cross posting it here.


boadman


Dec 9, 2009, 12:20 PM
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Re: [robdotcalm] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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It's weird that no one on MP asks the OP about the burnt hand issue. To me that sounds like she actually dropped him. If there was 15 feet between the 1st and second bolt and between the first bolt and the ground and he fell before he reached the second bolt he should have been kept just off the ground by an attentive belayer. It sounds like she tried to pull in slack, lost control of the rope, and got her hand burnt as she watched him hit the ground.


hansundfritz


Dec 9, 2009, 12:28 PM
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Re: [boadman] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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Based on what I read on MP, I think her brake hand was fine -- she burned her off hand trying to pull in slack after she locked off. Again -- I THINK that's what I understood from reading between the lines. Not sure how she burned her hand with belay gloves on. That's another interesting question.


jt512


Dec 9, 2009, 12:36 PM
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Re: [robdotcalm] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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Gumby belayer drops gumby leader. Welcome to Tucson, the Pennsylvania of the West.

Jay


boymeetsrock


Dec 9, 2009, 12:39 PM
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Re: [boadman] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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I think you may have misread. Leader was clipping at the second bolt.


jt512


Dec 9, 2009, 12:41 PM
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Re: [hansundfritz] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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hansundfritz wrote:
Based on what I read on MP, I think her brake hand was fine -- she burned her off hand trying to pull in slack after she locked off.

It's a little weird that she burned her right hand. My best guess that she was belaying left-handed, and, instead of pulling in slack with her belay hand to shorten the fall, as a competent belayer would, she pulled in slack in the leader's side of the rope with her guide hand. Gumby.

In reply to:
Not sure how she burned her hand with belay gloves on. That's another interesting question.

This is plausible. I have had my hand get quite hot through a glove when trying to lower a climber quickly.

Jay


deschamps1000


Dec 9, 2009, 2:20 PM
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Re: [jt512] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
Gumby belayer drops gumby leader. Welcome to Tucson, the Pennsylvania of the West.

Jay

Ha! Jay, come on out for a visit. We'll put you on some lines put up by some of our "gumby" locals that will make you pucker nice and tight for weeks!


ClimbClimb


Dec 9, 2009, 3:20 PM
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Terrible, hopefully the climber gets well soon. And whatever fault there is or isn't in this, it's got to take a whiel to process watching your partner deck from 30+ feet above.

It'd be good to get more details. Could happen to anyone, not sure how much there's to learn here beyond "don't fall on no-fall sections -- or place extra pro if you plan to".


jt512


Dec 9, 2009, 7:05 PM
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Re: [deschamps1000] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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deschamps1000 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Gumby belayer drops gumby leader. Welcome to Tucson, the Pennsylvania of the West.

Jay

Ha! Jay, come on out for a visit. We'll put you on some lines put up by some of our "gumby" locals that will make you pucker nice and tight for weeks!

Thanks. I was out there weekend before last, and plan to return weekend after next.

Jay


Trixie


Dec 10, 2009, 3:42 AM
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I had to read it a few times before the penny dropped (oops, soz). With approx 30 ft of rope out and a single bolt at 15 feet, the climber is lucky to be alive! With the slack in the system as the climber tried to clip the second bolt.....just doesn't beare thinking about.

I have to admit, that would be my nightmare scenario as a belayer. Too much rope, nowhere to run backwards. How much rope could you realistically expect to pull through a belay device? Given the stretch in the rope, would it be about 6 feet you'd need to stop the climber decking?

Be gentle with me, I'm a noobUnsure

Trixie Cool


acorneau


Dec 10, 2009, 8:29 AM
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Sorry to hear this person decked.

However, my first thought: I wonder if the leader pulled out a lot of rope to try to clip the second draw way above his head (like so many people do). If he did he probably negated any slack the belayer tried to take in when he fell.


Partner robdotcalm


Dec 10, 2009, 9:26 AM
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Re: [jt512] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:

This is plausible. I have had my hand get quite hot through a glove when trying to lower a climber quickly.

Jay

Lowering a climber so fast that your hand gets hot thru a glove seems to be a gratuitously unsafe thing to do. Why does anyone do that other than to show off (as I've observed in gyms and sport crags)?

Cheers,
Rob.calm


Gmburns2000


Dec 10, 2009, 9:50 AM
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hmmmm...


jt512


Dec 10, 2009, 10:10 AM
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robdotcalm wrote:
jt512 wrote:

This is plausible. I have had my hand get quite hot through a glove when trying to lower a climber quickly.

Jay

Lowering a climber so fast that your hand gets hot thru a glove seems to be a gratuitously unsafe thing to do. Why does anyone do that other than to show off (as I've observed in gyms and sport crags)?

Doing laps for endurance training, you want to simulate continuous climbing, so you want to get the climber to the ground as quickly as possible, to minimize the break between laps. That's one reason.

Jay


Partner robdotcalm


Dec 10, 2009, 11:13 AM
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The belayer has contributed the following information on Mt Project:

«What i meant by creating tension on the line was: I had my left hand on break, had take up as much slack as possible that way but at the last minute I realized there was still too much rope so with my right hand I jumped up and grabbed the climbers side of the rope to create tension while still breaking with my left.»

Well, her heart's in the right place, but I don't think her R hand was.

Cheers,
Rob.calm


olderic


Dec 10, 2009, 12:33 PM
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robdotcalm wrote:
The belayer has contributed the following information on Mt Project:

«What i meant by creating tension on the line was: I had my left hand on break, had take up as much slack as possible that way but at the last minute I realized there was still too much rope so with my right hand I jumped up and grabbed the climbers side of the rope to create tension while still breaking with my left.»

Well, her heart's in the right place, but I don't think her R hand was.

Cheers,
Rob.calm

If she had tried braking with her hands she probably woudn't have burnt them.


dugl33


Dec 10, 2009, 1:21 PM
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I've spent a little time at Mount Lemmon and its got some great climbing.

People, perhaps fairly often, mistakenly think this a sport climbing area -- in many ways it is not. You might even say bolts supplement the runouts between gear sets, not the other way around. Its just the nature of the rock there and the bolting ethic of the FAs. Routes quickly go from PG to R or even X when this reality is ignored.

The leader made an unfortunate call that didn't work out. Its not for me to judge, the guy saw the risk and decided to go for it. Its also tough to say if the belayer could have done more. Somehow I've never had rope burns from belaying in many years of climbing, yet somehow I read about them fairly often. I certainly don't think the belayer had a moral obligation to refuse the guy a belay, locking off the rope at the first bolt so the dude couldn't continue. I guess if as a belayer you simply aren't comfortable with your partners risk... hmmm, that's interesting territory.

With a high first clip, its actually tough to take out much slack with a bruce-jenner belay, due to the angle of the rope through the pro. Probably the best one can hope for is a single slack pull of a few feet and sit down, which can take out another couple of feet.

I had a climber fall once from down low (second bolt, clipping 3rd) with a full arm of slack out trying to clip. She was panicked, I told her to drop the rope, she did not. I told her to grab the draw, she did not. Adios, airborne. She didn't deck, but not by much. She nearly puked, but was ultimately unscathed. A belayer can only do so much. Don't expect a miracle.

BTW, no rope burns.Tongue


ClimbClimb


Dec 10, 2009, 2:58 PM
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[quote "dugl33". A belayer can only do so much. Don't expect a miracle.
Well-said.


zeke_sf


Dec 10, 2009, 3:08 PM
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Re: [jt512] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
robdotcalm wrote:
jt512 wrote:

This is plausible. I have had my hand get quite hot through a glove when trying to lower a climber quickly.

Jay

Lowering a climber so fast that your hand gets hot thru a glove seems to be a gratuitously unsafe thing to do. Why does anyone do that other than to show off (as I've observed in gyms and sport crags)?

Doing laps for endurance training, you want to simulate continuous climbing, so you want to get the climber to the ground as quickly as possible, to minimize the break between laps. That's one reason.

Jay

I'd rather downclimb than get decked fagging off like that.


jt512


Dec 10, 2009, 3:28 PM
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zeke_sf wrote:
jt512 wrote:
robdotcalm wrote:
jt512 wrote:

This is plausible. I have had my hand get quite hot through a glove when trying to lower a climber quickly.

Jay

Lowering a climber so fast that your hand gets hot thru a glove seems to be a gratuitously unsafe thing to do. Why does anyone do that other than to show off (as I've observed in gyms and sport crags)?

Doing laps for endurance training, you want to simulate continuous climbing, so you want to get the climber to the ground as quickly as possible, to minimize the break between laps. That's one reason.

Jay

I'd rather downclimb than get decked fagging off like that.

So would I, but I'd rather get lowered quickly without getting decked than downclimbing.

Jay


boymeetsrock


Dec 10, 2009, 7:55 PM
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jt512 wrote:
zeke_sf wrote:
jt512 wrote:
robdotcalm wrote:
jt512 wrote:

This is plausible. I have had my hand get quite hot through a glove when trying to lower a climber quickly.

Jay

Lowering a climber so fast that your hand gets hot thru a glove seems to be a gratuitously unsafe thing to do. Why does anyone do that other than to show off (as I've observed in gyms and sport crags)?

Doing laps for endurance training, you want to simulate continuous climbing, so you want to get the climber to the ground as quickly as possible, to minimize the break between laps. That's one reason.

Jay

I'd rather downclimb than get decked fagging off like that.

So would I, but I'd rather get lowered quickly without getting decked than downclimbing.

Jay


heh... In the running for jt's worst post of the year. Crazy


Trixie


Dec 11, 2009, 2:11 AM
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robdotcalm wrote:
The belayer has contributed the following information on Mt Project:

«What i meant by creating tension on the line was: I had my left hand on break, had take up as much slack as possible that way but at the last minute I realized there was still too much rope so with my right hand I jumped up and grabbed the climbers side of the rope to create tension while still breaking with my left.»

Well, her heart's in the right place, but I don't think her R hand was.

Cheers,
Rob.calm

Where should her right hand have been? I'm confused. If it joined her left hand on the brake, the climber would have decked at full speed. The fact that her hand got burned shows that she managed to take some energy out of the fall and probably saved his life.

How quickly can the average belayer take in slack through a belay device? Come to think of it, what is an average belayer? Laugh


patto


Dec 11, 2009, 3:50 AM
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Trixie wrote:
Where should her right hand have been? I'm confused. If it joined her left hand on the brake, the climber would have decked at full speed. The fact that her hand got burned shows that she managed to take some energy out of the fall and probably saved his life.

If she braking properly then there shouldn't be any rope movement anyway! Maybe she took a last arm length that couldn't be locked off but she would have done better by sitting down!!!!

There is VERY little use holding onto the non brake side rope. I might yard in any loose slack in the moments before the fall but by the time the rope comes tight i will normally have BOTH hands on the brake side.


troutboy


Dec 11, 2009, 6:44 AM
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Trixie wrote:
robdotcalm wrote:
The belayer has contributed the following information on Mt Project:

«What i meant by creating tension on the line was: I had my left hand on break, had take up as much slack as possible that way but at the last minute I realized there was still too much rope so with my right hand I jumped up and grabbed the climbers side of the rope to create tension while still breaking with my left.»

Well, her heart's in the right place, but I don't think her R hand was.

Cheers,
Rob.calm

Where should her right hand have been? I'm confused. If it joined her left hand on the brake, the climber would have decked at full speed. The fact that her hand got burned shows that she managed to take some energy out of the fall and probably saved his life.

How quickly can the average belayer take in slack through a belay device? Come to think of it, what is an average belayer? Laugh

Her right hand should have been anywhere, except near the rope on the climber's side of the belay device. Rob is not saying she should have been doing something with her right hand, but that she unfortunately put it in a bad location.

As I read this, the belayer was braking with her left hand and reached up with her right above the belay device because there was slack in the rope there. Grabbing the rope above the belay device would have no effect on reducing the length of the fall. Slack on the climber's side of the belay device also indicates some other things, but I am not going to explore there.

The belay may not have mattered in this case. From the accident description, it's possible the climber was well into groundfall zone, especially if he had some rope pulled up to clip when he fell (has that been mentioned in any description ?). With no place to run, it might not have been possible for even an experienced belayer to pull in enough slack to prevent the groundfall.

There are still some questions in my head about the entire fall/belay sequence, but the climber chose to proceed well into potential groundfall zone. His choice, albeit an unfortunate one. Anyone who has climbed for a reasonable amount of time eventually is faced with this choice; however, when the choice to proceed into groundfall zone means climbing at or near your ability, that's a more serious proposition.

I wish both the climber and belayer the best.

TS


Trixie


Dec 11, 2009, 7:28 AM
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I'm obviously being thick. I can see what you're saying if they were top roping, but they werent, therefore there had to be slack in the system cos it's very awkward trying to lead climb on a tight rope. Having both hands on the brake isn't going to do a thing with thirty feet of rope out and the only pro is at 15 feet. The guy is gonna deck with slack still in the system, given that he fell trying to clip the second bolt.

As you said, you'd have both hands on the brake before the rope came tight, but it seems that what's happened is that the rope was never going to become tight - the guy was 15 feet above his only piece of pro, which itself was 15 feet from the deck.

I think I need Majid and his arrows if I'm ever going to understand this. Laugh


Trixie


Dec 11, 2009, 7:38 AM
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Troutboy, you've got the same take on it as me. The only thing I'm querying is that she was wrong grabbing the climber's side of the rope. Yes, she would get hurt, but she was trying to save this guy's life and probably succeeded. Even if she only managed to slow his fall by a little, then I think she did well.

It was mentioned in the original post that the climber fell trying to clip the second bolt so I think it would be fair to say that he was well into the groundfall zone.

I think in that situation knowing that the climber is going to laminate himself on the ground, most of us would have, in desperation, grabbed the climber's side of the rope.


Gmburns2000


Dec 11, 2009, 7:46 AM
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Trixie wrote:
Troutboy, you've got the same take on it as me. The only thing I'm querying is that she was wrong grabbing the climber's side of the rope. Yes, she would get hurt, but she was trying to save this guy's life and probably succeeded. Even if she only managed to slow his fall by a little, then I think she did well.

It was mentioned in the original post that the climber fell trying to clip the second bolt so I think it would be fair to say that he was well into the groundfall zone.

I think in that situation knowing that the climber is going to laminate himself on the ground, most of us would have, in desperation, grabbed the climber's side of the rope.

In baseball there is the belief that when running to first the runner should not lunge for firstbase when the play is going to be close. Instead, it is supposedly faster to keep running hard.

While she may have slowed the rope down some by grabbing the climber's side of the rope, I wonder if there was something better that she could have done otherwise. I'm not sure what that could have been (some have mentioned sitting down), but it certainly is worth thinking about it.


troutboy


Dec 11, 2009, 8:02 AM
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Trixie wrote:
I'm obviously being thick. I can see what you're saying if they were top roping, but they werent, therefore there had to be slack in the system cos it's very awkward trying to lead climb on a tight rope.

OK. now I see your issue. Yes, it's a fine line between enough slack to clip and too much. My perspective was too much slack out during the clip, but perhaps this was not the case. And once the climber starts to fall, there will be nothing but slack on the climbers side (because there is no way a belayer could take in rope as fast as the climber is falling in a free fall situation). Perhaps that is when the belayer grabbed the climber's side (as opposed to before the fall or simultaneouly with the onset of the fall). There is also a fine line regarding knowing whether or not you should lock off or try to take in a bit more slack first. Situation-specific, split-second decision in a stressful situation that is instinctual from catching many previous falls in more controlled situations.

I also want to clarify: my questions regarding the fall/belay sequence stem from inadequate descriptions/incomplete information only to determine if the climber faced certain groundfall. If that were the case, without the ability to run, the belayer could do nothing to stop said groundfall.

TS


jt512


Dec 11, 2009, 8:34 AM
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troutboy wrote:
Her right hand should have been anywhere, except near the rope on the climber's side of the belay device.

Really? Where is your guide hand when you belay?

Jay


troutboy


Dec 11, 2009, 8:41 AM
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jt512 wrote:
troutboy wrote:
Her right hand should have been anywhere, except near the rope on the climber's side of the belay device.

Really? Where is your guide hand when you belay?

Jay

Oops. Quite right. As worded, stupid statement. I was picturing having the off hand at or near the belay device during the fall catch and getting sucked into the device/rope. Obviously, the off hand is constantly pulling in or paying out rope during the actual belay. Depends on when she tried to grab the rope with the off hand. Generally, once I begin to lock off, I pull my off hand well away from the rope, sometimes locking off with both hands. Perhaps others do not.

Thanks for the headsmack Jay.

TS


jt512


Dec 11, 2009, 9:11 AM
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Trixie wrote:
I think in that situation knowing that the climber is going to laminate himself on the ground, most of us would have, in desperation, grabbed the climber's side of the rope.

I don't think I would have. What would one be trying to accomplish by grabbing the leader's side of the rope. Pulling in slack? You pull slack through the belay device from the brake side of the rope. Duh! This is exactly why the brake side of the rope should be kept by default in a neutral position—as I have been arguing for at least the last decade—not locked off all the time. With a 30-foot fall that she should have seen coming, starting with the brake rope held 60–90 degrees from the leader's rope, she probably would have had time to take in two armfuls of slack, hand over hand on the brake side of the rope before locking off with both hands (on the brake side of the rope) and diving to the ground.

What happened here was an inexperienced and/or poorly trained belayer, probably using an inferior "modern" locked-off-by-default belay technique, panicked and reacted improperly in response to the fall—none of which, of course, mitigates her gumby partner's culpability in the accident.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Dec 11, 2009, 9:13 AM)


dugl33


Dec 11, 2009, 1:20 PM
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jt512 wrote:
What happened here was an inexperienced and/or poorly trained belayer, probably using an inferior "modern" locked-off-by-default belay technique, panicked and reacted improperly in response to the fall—none of which, of course, mitigates her gumby partner's culpability in the accident.

Jay

I think the jury is still out on that one. If my math is correct, and its probably not, it takes around 1.37 seconds to free fall 30', and you're travelling close to 30 mph after that distance.

One-mississipi-one-mis. That's all you got. You'd be doing well to take in two pulls of slack, although probably(?) possible. If she indeed took in slack, locked off, and then pulled in yet more slack on the guide side, I would speculate this provided some added benefit, with a personal sacrifice of rope burn. Sitting down would help more because it would be a true gain.

*******************************

and, to no one in particular...

To debunk the bruce-jenner belay a bit more, if the first pro is 15 feet up, and you manage to go from 2' away from the cliff to 15' back, you have only taken in around 5 feet of slack with your 13 foot run.

If the first pro is 30 feet up, you get a measly 3 - 1/2' feet of slack reduction for your efforts. You're better off staying put, yarding in slack, and sitting down. Remember, one-mississipi-one... Not a lot of time.

If you really want to bruce-jenner that sucker, you have to have a bomb proof redirect at waist height. This is the only way to get one-to-one slack reduction out of your run.

dig? Tongue


Lazlo


Dec 11, 2009, 2:20 PM
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jt512 wrote:
zeke_sf wrote:
jt512 wrote:
robdotcalm wrote:
jt512 wrote:

This is plausible. I have had my hand get quite hot through a glove when trying to lower a climber quickly.

Jay

Lowering a climber so fast that your hand gets hot thru a glove seems to be a gratuitously unsafe thing to do. Why does anyone do that other than to show off (as I've observed in gyms and sport crags)?

Doing laps for endurance training, you want to simulate continuous climbing, so you want to get the climber to the ground as quickly as possible, to minimize the break between laps. That's one reason.

Jay

I'd rather downclimb than get decked fagging off like that.

So would I, but I'd rather get lowered quickly without getting decked than downclimbing.

Jay

I laughed.


patto


Dec 11, 2009, 2:45 PM
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Some very good posts there Troutboy, Jay and Dugl33.

(To be honost im embarassed not to have realised the limited benefit of a running away belay. That said I've never done it and never advocated it.)

Inspite of the belayers description the notion that the fall was 'well within the ground fall zone' is flawed. If the rope ran through here hands it implies that the rope cam tense thus at the most the ground was within the stretch zone. Even so, if you are locked off properly there should be very limited amount of rope movement on the guide side anyway!


billl7


Dec 11, 2009, 4:07 PM
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I have seen a well-intentioned but somewhat inexperienced belayer get 2nd degree burns on the guide hand but NOT on the brake hand. This was from a leader fall on vertical terrain; FF 2/3? The leader was caught just fine. Unfortunately, the belayer had rather instinctively pulled in the rope with the guide hand and simply held it tight until the slack zipped back out.

Seems pretty clear that the leader knew he was making a decision to go to the margin of his protection.

Bill L


socalclimber


Dec 11, 2009, 5:47 PM
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This whole accident has IDIOTS written all over it. The level of failure here lies on both sides.


(This post was edited by socalclimber on Dec 11, 2009, 5:51 PM)


billl7


Dec 11, 2009, 5:57 PM
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I would agree about on "both sides" if the belayer had been cool about the leader pressing on to the second bolt.


socalclimber


Dec 11, 2009, 6:11 PM
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billl7 wrote:
I would agree about on "both sides" if the belayer had been cool about the leader pressing on to the second bolt.

Here's my take on it. Part of the whole process of climbing with partners is that it is indeed a partnership. The leader clearly failed to account for the partners lack of skills and abilities.


jt512


Dec 11, 2009, 6:27 PM
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socalclimber wrote:
The leader clearly failed to account for the partners lack of skills and abilities.

The leader didn't even account for his own lack of skills and abilities, never mind his partner's.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Dec 11, 2009, 6:55 PM)


socalclimber


Dec 11, 2009, 6:33 PM
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Agreed. Point taken!


notapplicable


Dec 12, 2009, 8:57 AM
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Trixie wrote:
The only thing I'm querying is that she was wrong grabbing the climber's side of the rope. Yes, she would get hurt, but she was trying to save this guy's life and probably succeeded. Even if she only managed to slow his fall by a little, then I think she did well.

I would disagree with the notion that grabbing above accumulated slack on the climbers side of the rope slowed the fall enough to make any kind of difference. Too much mass, traveling to damn fast.

Try this experiment. The next time you have a lead rope strung up on something, grab a single strand and try to hold just your own body weight off the ground. Now imagine there is a climber on the other end who both out weights you and has just fallen 30' and you are trying to stop them. Are you make a difference?

It's unlikely the belayer made the situation worse by her actions but the way that rope went through her fingers, she might as well have been trying to grab a fist full of water.


claramie


Dec 12, 2009, 10:32 AM
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jt512 wrote:
Gumby belayer drops gumby leader. Welcome to Tucson, the Pennsylvania of the West.

Jay

... and some people online are more concerned with talking shit and showcasing their own superiority than offering any valuable advice...

well played on all sides


(This post was edited by claramie on Dec 12, 2009, 10:33 AM)


Trixie


Dec 12, 2009, 10:53 AM
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In reply to:
It's unlikely the belayer made the situation worse by her actions but the way that rope went through her fingers, she might as well have been trying to grab a fist full of water.

Yes, I agree that she might not have made any difference, but then again she might have. Who knows? However in that situation, could you just stand and do nothing? Personally, I'd grab the rope. Sitting down wouldn't help me at all, cos it would only make a difference of 2 feet (I'm only 4'11" and I've measured the difference in distance of my waist from the ground, standing and sitting.


socalclimber


Dec 12, 2009, 11:49 AM
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claramie wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Gumby belayer drops gumby leader. Welcome to Tucson, the Pennsylvania of the West.

Jay

... and some people online are more concerned with talking shit and showcasing their own superiority than offering any valuable advice...

well played on all sides

No dumb fuck. The point is spot on.

Maybe since you don't understand this we will be reading about you someday.


notapplicable


Dec 12, 2009, 1:13 PM
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Trixie wrote:
In reply to:
It's unlikely the belayer made the situation worse by her actions but the way that rope went through her fingers, she might as well have been trying to grab a fist full of water.

Yes, I agree that she might not have made any difference, but then again she might have. Who knows? However in that situation, could you just stand and do nothing? Personally, I'd grab the rope. Sitting down wouldn't help me at all, cos it would only make a difference of 2 feet (I'm only 4'11" and I've measured the difference in distance of my waist from the ground, standing and sitting.

I'm very confident that any friction she added to the system by grabbing the rope was well in to the negligible range. I'm also very confident that the two feet of slack you'll eliminate by diving to the deck will help more than any friction you can add by grabbing the rope.

10 years of bricklaying and 6+ years of climbing has given me an above average grip strength and it would never occur to me to try and slow a fall like that by grabbing the rope with a single hand. It's just not gonna do any good. Personally I would have done exactly what Jay described. Take in as much slack as possible and hit the deck.

Not a whole lot more you can do unless you plan ahead and sling a nearby tree as a redirect so you can sprint away from the wall. That system has several downsides including hindering normal belay processes though, so I've only ever used it for badly runout (30+ feet between placements) slab climbing. IMO that is the only time a "running belay" can shorten a fall by a wide enough margin to offset it's potential inconveniences and dangers.


notapplicable


Dec 12, 2009, 1:23 PM
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Why hasn't this post been recycled yet?

Oh thats right, the modz are too busy arguing about whether a freesoloing thread is climbing related to moderate the one forum that actually needs it.

Nice.


edited because I apparently can not spell "thread"


(This post was edited by notapplicable on Dec 12, 2009, 1:25 PM)


Trixie


Dec 12, 2009, 2:45 PM
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Thanks for that explanation. You're right, 2 feet of slack removed is better than nothing. I really hope I never end up in that situation, it does seem to be a lose/lose one.

TrixieCool


jt512


Dec 12, 2009, 2:56 PM
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Trixie wrote:
Thanks for that explanation. You're right, 2 feet of slack removed is better than nothing. I really hope I never end up in that situation, it does seem to be a lose/lose one.

TrixieCool

Please wake up and start taking this sport seriously. If you climb long enough you almost certainly will be in a situation (more than once) when your actions as a belayer will (or won't) keep your partner from decking. If don't think you can handle that coolly and competently, find another sport.

Jay


notapplicable


Dec 12, 2009, 4:49 PM
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Trixie wrote:
Thanks for that explanation. You're right, 2 feet of slack removed is better than nothing. I really hope I never end up in that situation, it does seem to be a lose/lose one.

TrixieCool

I hope you never end up in that situation too but I'd say the odds aren't in your favor, I know they weren't in mine. If you think about it, it doesn't have to be a situation nearly as extreme as the one in the OP. Even in the sport climbing world there are routes (one could argue they are poorly bolted but thats not really the point) where someone clipping the second bolt above their head can easily break an ankle or worse.

All you can really do is be a student of the art and hope your inevitable mistakes are small enough that you can learn from them without anyone actually getting hurt. Thats the approach I've tried to take anyway.


Trixie


Dec 12, 2009, 5:45 PM
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jt512 wrote:
Trixie wrote:
Thanks for that explanation. You're right, 2 feet of slack removed is better than nothing. I really hope I never end up in that situation, it does seem to be a lose/lose one.

TrixieCool

Please wake up and start taking this sport seriously. If you climb long enough you almost certainly will be in a situation (more than once) when your actions as a belayer will (or won't) keep your partner from decking. If don't think you can handle that coolly and competently, find another sport.

Jay

What makes you think I'm not taking this sport seriously?? I've been in situations where my actions as a belayer are all that stands between my partner decking or dangling. The situation I'm talking about is this specific one where the climber was approx 15' above his first and only piece of pro and had enough rope out that he would deck. Oh, and the fact that the belayer was unhappy with the situation, but the climber continued anyway.

Thanks sooo much for your encouragement Mad I'll remember never to be so impertinent to ask questions again and will remain in a state of rampant ignorance, allowing you to remain contemptuous. I'm obviously not worthy Unsure


jt512


Dec 12, 2009, 6:06 PM
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Trixie wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Trixie wrote:
Thanks for that explanation. You're right, 2 feet of slack removed is better than nothing. I really hope I never end up in that situation, it does seem to be a lose/lose one.

TrixieCool

Please wake up and start taking this sport seriously. If you climb long enough you almost certainly will be in a situation (more than once) when your actions as a belayer will (or won't) keep your partner from decking. If don't think you can handle that coolly and competently, find another sport.

Jay

The situation I'm talking about is this specific one where the climber was approx 15' above his first and only piece of pro and had enough rope out that he would deck. Oh, and the fact that the belayer was unhappy with the situation, but the climber continued anyway.

On most sport climbs you belay, you'll be in a situation where your partner will be in decking range when clipping the second bolt. There is absolutely nothing unusual about this situation; you'll be in it routinely. If the only reason your partner is in decking range is because he's 15 feet above his last pro, you should be happy, because at least then you'll have time to do something useful (provided you don't fuck up and uselessly grab the wrong side of the rope).

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Dec 12, 2009, 6:12 PM)


socalclimber


Dec 12, 2009, 7:22 PM
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Trixie, here's the simple jist of the matter. Climbing is alot more than just going up the rock. It requires foresightand thought. Something that appears to be completely lost on the modern day climber. This includes about 90% of the people on this site.

Hopefully you won't fall into this category.

This isn't jogging or roller blading. This is serious. The accident rates in the last 7 to 8 years speak for themselves.

Stupid people are flocking to the crags and getting hurt and/or ending up dead.

(sorry, needed some editing)


(This post was edited by socalclimber on Dec 12, 2009, 7:37 PM)


notapplicable


Dec 12, 2009, 7:51 PM
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socalclimber wrote:
Trixie, here's the simple jist of the matter. Climbing is alot more than just going up the rock. It requires forsight and thought. Something that appears to be completely lost on the modern day climber. This includes about 90% of the people on this site.

Hopefully you won't fall into this catagory.

This isn't jogging or roller blading. This is serous. The accident rates in the last 7 to 8 years speak for themselves.

Stupid people are flocking to the crags and getting hurt and/or dieing.

While I generally agree with the sentiment and was most definitely a ranking member of that party in the past, I think Trixie has you and jt on this one.

Believe it or not, some people are open to learning and evolving their understanding of the sport. When they ask questions they genuinely want to know how they can be better or safer.

There are plenty of appropriate opportunities to be a dick round these parts, hell CrazyPete is creating a new one every week it seems, but this isn't one of em.


socalclimber


Dec 12, 2009, 8:08 PM
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I'll respond to this in tomorrow.


zeke_sf


Dec 12, 2009, 8:10 PM
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Great. Forecast is threat of response tomorrow. Might as well shoot myself.


jt512


Dec 12, 2009, 8:43 PM
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notapplicable wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
Trixie, here's the simple jist of the matter. Climbing is alot more than just going up the rock. It requires forsight and thought. Something that appears to be completely lost on the modern day climber. This includes about 90% of the people on this site.

Hopefully you won't fall into this catagory.

This isn't jogging or roller blading. This is serous. The accident rates in the last 7 to 8 years speak for themselves.

Stupid people are flocking to the crags and getting hurt and/or dieing.

While I generally agree with the sentiment and was most definitely a ranking member of that party in the past, I think Trixie has you and jt on this one.

I'm not questioning Trixie's willingness to learn. But something has gone desperately wrong with the way climbers are being introduced to the sport. I can tell you with certainty, that since the very first day I ever climbed, I would not have attempted to shorten a climber's fall by pulling in slack on the climber's side of the rope; through some combination of training and common sense I'd have pulled the rope through the belay device and/or run back and/or dived to the ground. And here we have one climber in Tucson who did the wrong thing (and even after time to think about it) thinks she's a hero, and another (Trixie) who said she would do the same. What has gone wrong?

Jay


rightarmbad


Dec 12, 2009, 10:02 PM
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But something has gone desperately wrong with the way climbers are being introduced to the sport.

So true


notapplicable


Dec 13, 2009, 1:01 AM
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jt512 wrote:
I'm not questioning Trixie's willingness to learn. But something has gone desperately wrong with the way climbers are being introduced to the sport.

This is exactly right and a large source of the problem.

Anymore people are brought to climbing though a hundred different avenues and aren't compelled to give it the respect such an unforgiving engagement deserves. It has been lumped in with all the other "everyman" sports and while I agree that instinct should tell a person this is serious business, I understand how someone could lose sight of that given how it is advertised and practiced.

I kind of split the difference in how I came to climbing. The first time I was exposed to it I watched from the north summit of seneca rocks while two men worked their way to the southern summit and was completely inspired by watching their slow but deliberate progress. A few months later I visited a local gym for the first time, within two weeks I was leading sport and 2-3 weeks later I was leading on gear. I came to climbing rather organically but it was so accessible and easy to take up that I got right in over my head.

One thing that continues to influence my approach to the sport are conversations with folks like yourself on here. That and reading through parts of the archive has changed my perspective on a lot of things from ethics to technique to anchor construction and most importantly safety. In many ways RC.com helped to offset my total lack of mentoring. I know we talk a lot of shit and goof off in community but I think the more experienced folks on here really do have something to offer. Some people are actually listening to whats being said.

In reply to:
I can tell you with certainty, that since the very first day I ever climbed, I would not have attempted to shorten a climber's fall by pulling in slack on the climber's side of the rope; through some combination of training and common sense I'd have pulled the rope through the belay device and/or run back and/or dived to the ground. And here we have one climber in Tucson who did the wrong thing (and even after time to think about it) thinks she's a hero, and another (Trixie) who said she would do the same. What has gone wrong?

Jay

A lot has gone wrong and some are just beyond hope but I think there is promise in those who know and admit that they are novices. If they are willing to listen and work to advance their knowledge, that behavior should be encouraged.

I think it's worth trying to differentiate between and treat differently those who will listen to reason and those who won't. That is really my only point.


edit - spelling


(This post was edited by notapplicable on Dec 13, 2009, 1:02 AM)


socalclimber


Dec 13, 2009, 3:45 AM
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notapplicable wrote:
jt512 wrote:
I'm not questioning Trixie's willingness to learn. But something has gone desperately wrong with the way climbers are being introduced to the sport.

This is exactly right and a large source of the problem.

Anymore people are brought to climbing though a hundred different avenues and aren't compelled to give it the respect such an unforgiving engagement deserves. It has been lumped in with all the other "everyman" sports and while I agree that instinct should tell a person this is serious business, I understand how someone could lose sight of that given how it is advertised and practiced.

I kind of split the difference in how I came to climbing. The first time I was exposed to it I watched from the north summit of seneca rocks while two men worked their way to the southern summit and was completely inspired by watching their slow but deliberate progress. A few months later I visited a local gym for the first time, within two weeks I was leading sport and 2-3 weeks later I was leading on gear. I came to climbing rather organically but it was so accessible and easy to take up that I got right in over my head.

One thing that continues to influence my approach to the sport are conversations with folks like yourself on here. That and reading through parts of the archive has changed my perspective on a lot of things from ethics to technique to anchor construction and most importantly safety. In many ways RC.com helped to offset my total lack of mentoring. I know we talk a lot of shit and goof off in community but I think the more experienced folks on here really do have something to offer. Some people are actually listening to whats being said.

In reply to:
I can tell you with certainty, that since the very first day I ever climbed, I would not have attempted to shorten a climber's fall by pulling in slack on the climber's side of the rope; through some combination of training and common sense I'd have pulled the rope through the belay device and/or run back and/or dived to the ground. And here we have one climber in Tucson who did the wrong thing (and even after time to think about it) thinks she's a hero, and another (Trixie) who said she would do the same. What has gone wrong?

Jay

A lot has gone wrong and some are just beyond hope but I think there is promise in those who know and admit that they are novices. If they are willing to listen and work to advance their knowledge, that behavior should be encouraged.

I think it's worth trying to differentiate between and treat differently those who will listen to reason and those who won't. That is really my only point.


edit - spelling

I'll concede to this. Point taken.

One of the big problems I have seen is that both the gyms and sport climbing world seem to be breeding a mentality that falling is no big deal. Couple that with people who clearly don't know how to belay, and we get accidents like this one.


Trixie


Dec 13, 2009, 5:28 AM
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In reply to:
through some combination of training and common sense I'd have pulled the rope through the belay device and/or run back and/or dived to the ground.

Yes, we all would, but if you're unable to pull enough slack through the belay device because there's too much rope out AND you have nowhere to run to, all you're left with is diving for the ground and in my case, if there was still over 2' of slack out, that wouldn't help either. The only thing left, after all of this is grabbing the rope.

That's why I asked a while back how long it would take an average belayer to get 6' of slack through a belay device. According to someone else who posted on this thread, you'd have less than 2 seconds to shift that slack.

So what would you do if you can't get enough slack out of the rope to stop a climber decking? Yes, I know, you wouldn't get into that position in the first place Angelic but if you were in that position, what would you do? What else is left but sheer desperation? I suppose you could lie there and watch the action, but that's not something I could do.

I am genuinely interested in this situation, I want to learn, as notapplicable suggests. I guess some of us have to learn from scratch and others are born with encyclopaedic climbing knowledge.

Trixie (aka utterly fucking stoopid gumby noob who apparently doesn't realise that climbing is a dangerous business and should get rid of her harness etc and start basketweaving)


billl7


Dec 13, 2009, 7:10 AM
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Panic can have UNpredictable results, especially for the inexperienced / unknowledgable. We reach down into things in ourselves that are not well understood and often not applicable. From the genders of the involved folks, here and in the accident, one might conclude that deep inside men don't give a damn about the leader and women do (whether or not a different belayer could have mattered).

But training and knowledge are collectively things that are better understood. That is the "high moral ground" that whats-his-fuck and wanna-be-old-testament-god are ram-rodding.

Cheers!
Bill L


(This post was edited by billl7 on Dec 13, 2009, 7:13 AM)


mheyman


Dec 13, 2009, 7:20 AM
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jt512 wrote:
On most sport climbs you belay, you'll be in a situation where your partner will be in decking range when clipping the second bolt. There is absolutely nothing unusual about this situation; you'll be in it routinely. If the only reason your partner is in decking range is because he's 15 feet above his last pro, you should be happy, because at least then you'll have time to do something useful (provided you don't fuck up and uselessly grab the wrong side of the rope).Jay

Trying to understand what you feel is wrong here. The fastest way I can feed rope in either direction is to feed with both hands, one on each side of the belay device. This might be described or even look as “grabbing the wrong side of the rope. But, that description would be incomplete.

In this situation I’d be taking in rope until there was some tension in the rope. At which point I’d switch to locking and dropping. I‘d have guessed I’d get one good armful. Maybe in this situation since should have known it mattered so much I’d get another ½ an armful.


billl7


Dec 13, 2009, 8:28 AM
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notapplicable wrote:
While I generally agree with the sentiment and was most definitely a ranking member of that party in the past, I think Trixie has you and jt on this one.
... and thanks for expressing that sentiment. My words were failing me.


jcrew


Dec 13, 2009, 8:45 AM
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i thougt the OP was kinda strange..... if you'e leading you should know when you're getting into the "no-fall zone", and you shouldn't have to deal with negitive vibes fom the belayer. as a belyer, you've gotta know when you move from regular belay mode, to deck-saving belay mode, to spotter mode, all without causing fear or panic.

edit: judging from the combative tone of the belayer's posts, especially rule #2 on the list of lessons, i wonder how these people ever come to rope up together in the first place? do they meet online? this seems to me to be the only explanation


(This post was edited by jcrew on Dec 13, 2009, 9:48 AM)


jt512


Dec 13, 2009, 10:02 AM
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Trixie wrote:
In reply to:
through some combination of training and common sense I'd have pulled the rope through the belay device and/or run back and/or dived to the ground.

Yes, we all would, but if you're unable to pull enough slack through the belay device because there's too much rope out AND you have nowhere to run to, all you're left with is diving for the ground and in my case, if there was still over 2' of slack out, that wouldn't help either. The only thing left, after all of this is grabbing the rope.

You'll never be in that situation if you react correctly in the first place. The leader falls; you've got 1.3 seconds to react. Here's what the accident belayer did: Nothing for 1.0 seconds; then she grabbed the rope. Here's what she should have done: Spent 1.3 seconds pulling in as much slack as she could while diving to the ground. Two points. One: she didn't react properly in the first place, then she did the wrong thing. Two: you should never be in a position where you don't have time to pull in slack, but somehow have time to grab the rope; use all your available time to pull as much slack out of the system as you can; then lock off at the last instant. This implies that you must not belay with the rope locked off in the first place, like you were most likely taught—you can't pull rope in fast enough from a locked off position.

In reply to:
That's why I asked a while back how long it would take an average belayer to get 6' of slack through a belay device.

More time than this belayer had. But spending the available time taking in slack will always be more effective than spending part of that time grabbing the leader's side of the rope.

In reply to:
So what would you do if you can't get enough slack out of the rope to stop a climber decking? Yes, I know, you wouldn't get into that position in the first place Angelic but if you were in that position, what would you do? What else is left but sheer desperation? I suppose you could lie there and watch the action, but that's not something I could do.

I'd pull in more slack. How can you have time to grab the rope, but not time to pull in slack? Time is time; it's just a question of how you use it. Don't lock off the rope until the last instant, and then you can use all the available time to pull in slack.

Jay


billl7


Dec 13, 2009, 10:13 AM
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jcrew wrote:
edit: judging from the combative tone of the belayer's posts, especially rule #2 on the list of lessons, i wonder how these people ever come to rope up together in the first place? do they meet online?
Oh boy. My gut reaction on that one was of an "indirect" accident victim searching hard to make sense of it all without a lot of experience / knowledge. Same for continuing assertion that it was valuable to hold back the slack with the guide hand.

Of coursre, if a climbing pair gets to the point of the belayer hog tieing the leader - that partnership was completely broken even before anyone left the ground. <- that already said in other ways by JT, SoCal, yourself, etc..

I like the fluidity you described between regular belay mode, deck-saving belay mode, and spotter mode. I'll add to that "observer mode" as an extreme possibility.

Bill L


(This post was edited by billl7 on Dec 13, 2009, 10:21 AM)


notapplicable


Dec 13, 2009, 10:36 AM
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billl7 wrote:
jcrew wrote:
edit: judging from the combative tone of the belayer's posts, especially rule #2 on the list of lessons, i wonder how these people ever come to rope up together in the first place? do they meet online?
Oh boy. My gut reaction on that one was of an "indirect" accident victim searching hard to make sense of it all without a lot of experience / knowledge. Same for continuing assertion that it was valuable to hold back the slack with the guide hand.

Of coursre, if a climbing pair gets to the point of the belayer hog tieing the leader - that partnership was completely broken even before anyone left the ground. <- that already said in other ways by JT, SoCal, yourself, etc..

I like the fluidity you described between regular belay mode, deck-saving belay mode, and spotter mode. I'll add to that "observer mode" as an extreme possibility.

Bill L

The climber/belyer dynamic in this instance does seem to be a bit "off". Part of the problem may be that a lot of folks just don't fully understand the role of the belayer.

I think the rather nuanced art of belaying doesn't receive nearly enough focus or respect during the first few years of most peoples climbing careers. It's treated as a nuisance and approached rather mechanically. I don't know what can be done to change that though. Unfortunately.


notapplicable


Dec 13, 2009, 10:47 AM
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jt512 wrote:
This implies that you must not belay with the rope locked off in the first place, like you were most likely taught—you can't pull rope in fast enough from a locked off position.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. That is one of those tricks of the trade that you actually convinced me employ some time back. I was never a diehard "gotta lock off at all times" kind of guy but I wasn't initially open to belaying in such a fashion during those critical moments. I still default to a relaxed lockoff most times but if I anticipate a need to yard in slack, I bring my hands much closer together in preparation.

Thanks.


jcrew


Dec 13, 2009, 10:51 AM
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notapplicable wrote:
I think the rather nuanced art of belaying doesn't receive nearly enough focus or respect during the first few years of most peoples climbing careers. It's treated as a nuisance and approached rather mechanically. I don't know what can be done to change that though. Unfortunately.

i think we all agree on that. i like to have belayers who are really lead hogs at heart. they "know how it is" to be "out there." i have less confidence in belayers that don't actively, regularly lead .


jt512


Dec 13, 2009, 10:53 AM
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notapplicable wrote:
jt512 wrote:
This implies that you must not belay with the rope locked off in the first place, like you were most likely taught—you can't pull rope in fast enough from a locked off position.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. That is one of those tricks of the trade that you actually convinced me employ some time back. I was never a diehard "gotta lock off at all times" kind of guy but I wasn't initially open to belaying in such a fashion during those critical moments. I still default to a relaxed lockoff most times but if I anticipate a need to yard in slack, I bring my hands much closer together in preparation.

Thanks.

You're welcome. In a decade of arguing for this on the internet, you might be the only person I've convinced. Fortunately, my success rate among climbers I've talked to in person is greater.

Jay


billl7


Dec 13, 2009, 11:02 AM
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jt512 wrote:
In a decade of arguing for this on the internet, you might be the only person I've convinced. Fortunately, my success rate among climbers I've talked to in person is greater.

Jay or anyone else in this camp: What do you do with the person totally new to climbing in this regard? Do you teach from the outset that the default should be the "neutral" position? No need to go into great detail. Sorry if I missed this in some earlier thread.

My background is moderate traditional climbing in a teaching community of climbers that advocates being locked off as the default. But I am not a religious person.

Bill L

Edit: By "what do you teach about the default position" I mean starting from the very first day.


(This post was edited by billl7 on Dec 13, 2009, 11:05 AM)


jcrew


Dec 13, 2009, 11:05 AM
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i think the leader in the OP was anxious about being run-out, maybe partly due to the lack of support from his "partner", and became too fixated on clipping the second bolt.we've all been there, scared and just wanting to clip. there has got to be a decent clipping stance, especially if the route was done ground up; yeah, no?

real lessons learned might have been: a) go higher to a stance and/or waist clip, or b) just GRAB THE FUCKING DRAW if you're feeling the slightest bit sketch about pulling rope. style is an afterthought if you're going to get hurt.

edit:grammar


(This post was edited by jcrew on Dec 13, 2009, 11:07 AM)


jt512


Dec 13, 2009, 11:21 AM
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billl7 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
In a decade of arguing for this on the internet, you might be the only person I've convinced. Fortunately, my success rate among climbers I've talked to in person is greater.

Jay or anyone else in this camp: What do you do with the person totally new to climbing in this regard? Do you teach from the outset that the default should be the "neutral" position?

Yep. Palms-up, neutral position from Day 1. Practice with someone on the ground simulating climbing for as long as it takes for the belayer to get it wired. Then the belayer needs to demonstrate competency by catching several announced lead falls, followed by several unannounced lead falls. Unlike a lot of opinions I've read on this forum, I don't let someone belay me until I am actually confident that they will catch me if I fall.

Jay


Partner robdotcalm


Dec 13, 2009, 11:44 AM
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Trixie wrote:
Yes, we all would, but if you're unable to pull enough slack through the belay device because there's too much rope out AND you have nowhere to run to, all you're left with is diving for the ground and in my case, if there was still over 2' of slack out, that wouldn't help either. The only thing left, after all of this is grabbing the rope.

What else is left but sheer desperation? I suppose you could lie there and watch the action, but that's not something I could do.

The point is that grabbing the rope with your non-braking won't do any good (you can't stop someone that way) and can do harm in injuring the belayer's non-braking hand. This could be a serious issue on a multi-pitch climb. Also grabbing the rope can take time away from taking in rope on the brake side. What people have been telling you (usual internet insults aside) is that your proposed action has negative consequences. Not all acts of desperation are helpful.

Cheers,
Rob.calm


billl7


Dec 13, 2009, 11:48 AM
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Correct me if I am wrong: You advocate palms up for the purpose of rapidly taking in slack.

In other words ... The brake hand grips the brake strand and reels in slack (edit: guide hand is assisting with moving the other strand). At the end of that take-up stroke it is bringing its strand quickly up to the guide hand which is around the strand on the climber's side (edit: and is also returning to full arm extension). Guide hand pinches the brake strand allowing the brake hand to finish the cycle by sliding back towards the belay device and to the neutral position. Yes?

Am not trying to build a case for anything or reignite analysis of this. ... just getting a fuller picture of your position.

Bill L

edit: ... and the full cycle of taking in one stroke of slack happens in a fraction of a second.


(This post was edited by billl7 on Dec 13, 2009, 12:00 PM)


jt512


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billl7 wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong: You advocate palms up for the purpose of rapidly taking in slack.

In other words ... The brake hand grips the brake strand and reels in slack (edit: guide hand is assisting with moving the other strand). At the end of that take-up stroke it is bringing its strand quickly up to the guide hand which is around the strand on the climber's side (edit: and is also returning to full arm extension). Guide hand pinches the brake strand allowing the brake hand to finish the cycle by sliding back towards the belay device and to the neutral position. Yes?

Yeah, that sounds about right. To take up more than one armful of slack rapidly, both hands can pull out slack with a hand-under-hand motion on the brake side of the rope.

Jay


billl7


Dec 13, 2009, 12:01 PM
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Thanks, Jay.


edge


Dec 13, 2009, 1:40 PM
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It seems like the bottom line of this thread is to have experience equivalent to your pursuits.

Unfortunately it doesn't seem like the belayer or climber involved in the OP lived up to that criteria, but fortunately they will survive to live, learn, and climb another day. No one enters our sport with a complete comprehension of all of climbing's intricacies. However, many such failures of learning have led to great advances in the sport both technology wise and competency wise.

I will mention that Jay's belaying advise is sound, and is a great way to instruct beginners; indeed his methods apply to many world class climbers who have mastered those techniques. Are they the only viable techniques? I think not.

Personally, I have never belayed anyone with "palms up" because for me, it does not feel natural. I can reel in rope like no one's business with my left hand palms down and my dominant right, breaking hand also palm down. I let the rope tail furthest from the belay devise exit upwards between my ring and pinky finger, thus giving the rope a bit of a "stiffy" that the guide hand can grab easily. 99.5% of the time I never, ever match hand to hand, but am in a position to break at any given millisecond.

Think about it... Is it easier to throw your braking hand into a brake position palms up or palm down? For me it is the latter, however your determination should influence your own personal style once you have crossed that level of experience. This technique works for me personally, and using it I have never had anyone injured in a fall that I have belayed in 32 years of climbing.

Again, experience may dictate better methods of belaying to you, but until you have no reservations about yourself, nor do your partners, then sit down, shut up, and listen to those who know what they are talking about. Gyms open up a bag of worms here; you have the right to question the qualifications of ANYONE instructing you from a dominant position.

One last point: An experienced climber/belayer team will not need to communicate when someone is in the danger zone. Before the climb begins, they will have already discussed potential dangers, or will know intuitively.

Assessing the situation as it develops will tell the belayer if running will indeed pull in enough rope to assist in a leader fall, as much as yarding in rope willy nilly will. Similarly, diving to the turf to take up 2 1/2 feet of slack in a system with 4 feet of unaccounted rope could not only risk the safety of the climber, but the belayer and his response as well.

Like I said, experience counts more than web posts or gym visits.


troutboy


Dec 13, 2009, 1:58 PM
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jt512 wrote:
But something has gone desperately wrong with the way climbers are being introduced to the sport.
Jay

No kidding. I know I've responded at least a dozen times to posts on rc.com where it was either stated or implied that "anybody" can sport climb. The attitude seems to be all you need to do is climb, clip, and lower. But there is so much more to climbing safely. And even after the myriad intricacies involved with sport climbing are pointed out, the attitude still seems to be "so what, it's easy".

Guess what. It's not so easy or simple.

Also, I think this is a classic situation where watching your climber at all times is so important (not to imply the belayer in this case was not doing that). Seeing the fall (or even the pre-fall) and taking in slack from the get-go can save a person's life. That extra time you lose by not watching your leader's every move can kill them. Obviously, not applicable in situations where the climber is out of sight, but that is not so common on sport climbs.

If you are belaying me and I am within sight, you darn well better have your head looking up and your eyes on me, or you won't be belaying me ever again
(some rare situations excepted).

TS


notapplicable


Dec 13, 2009, 2:00 PM
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jcrew wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
I think the rather nuanced art of belaying doesn't receive nearly enough focus or respect during the first few years of most peoples climbing careers. It's treated as a nuisance and approached rather mechanically. I don't know what can be done to change that though. Unfortunately.

i think we all agree on that. i like to have belayers who are really lead hogs at heart. they "know how it is" to be "out there." i have less confidence in belayers that don't actively, regularly lead .

Very true. A lot of what constitutes a solid belay become more intuitive after you've put in some time on the sharp end.


mrmikewikowski


Dec 14, 2009, 6:50 PM
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Not to belittle the importance of good belaying and partner communication, but the climb where this accident occurred is NOT a sport line. It is a trad line with two bolts on it. Normally two pieces of pro are placed between the bolts, and so if the leader slipped while trying to clip the second bolt he was way into ground fall territory. While the belayer might have been able to do a slight better job the leader used some very poor judgment. Bolts do not equal sport climbing.


climbsomething


Dec 14, 2009, 7:28 PM
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Trixie wrote:
Thanks sooo much for your encouragement Mad I'll remember never to be so impertinent to ask questions again and will remain in a state of rampant ignorance, allowing you to remain contemptuous. I'm obviously not worthy Unsure
That's great that you know big words, but every defensive poke slides you further down the gumby slope.


caughtinside


Dec 14, 2009, 10:29 PM
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climbsomething wrote:
Trixie wrote:
Thanks sooo much for your encouragement Mad I'll remember never to be so impertinent to ask questions again and will remain in a state of rampant ignorance, allowing you to remain contemptuous. I'm obviously not worthy Unsure
That's great that you know big words, but every defensive poke slides you further down the gumby slope.

not to worry, there will soon be a crag of 5.5s for the new sportos in Tuscon to clip up

http://www.mountainproject.com/..._on_lemmon/106628619


Trixie


Dec 15, 2009, 1:55 AM
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In reply to:
That's great that you know big words, but every defensive poke slides you further down the gumby slope.

Nah, I don't know big words, I took it from the sig line of the poster I was replying to.

Anyway, the point of my reply was to try to point out that, in explaining something to a self-confessed noob, insults and assumptions really don't help. I was genuinely trying to understand how the decking could have been prevented/mitigated. I'm not trying to defend my thoughts on the situation, I'm trying to learn why my thoughts might be wrong. The only thing I was trying to defend was my willingness to learn.

At some point everyone has to learn. I thought that the Accident and Incident Analysis subforum was intended to help us all understand what went wrong and how to avoid repeating the same accident. The easiest way is to explain your thoughts on the incident and then for more experienced climbers to explain why you are wrong. By all means, criticise my opinions, but criticising me as a person teaches me (any any other noob reading) absolutely nothing except that asking questions and trying to learn only opens you up to attack. If defending myself (and my attempts to learn) from irrelevant insults slides me further down the gumby slope, so be it, if it means I end up a slightly safer gumby.

I suppose the corollary is true and that attacking pokes move you much further away from being a gumby. That's something I must bear in mind.

Trixie Cool


billl7


Dec 15, 2009, 5:46 AM
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When the authorities are on a religious mandate, individuals do not matter. It is like being a bug on a windshield. And the asocial aren't going to help. Fortunately, this on-line stuff mostly amounts to just a bunch of electrons flying around.

Bill L


climbsomething


Dec 15, 2009, 11:18 AM
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This post was fine until you got huffy at the end. Which is, by the way, a classic symptom of Gumby.


notapplicable


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mrmikewikowski wrote:
Not to belittle the importance of good belaying and partner communication, but the climb where this accident occurred is NOT a sport line. It is a trad line with two bolts on it. Normally two pieces of pro are placed between the bolts, and so if the leader slipped while trying to clip the second bolt he was way into ground fall territory. While the belayer might have been able to do a slight better job the leader used some very poor judgment. Bolts do not equal sport climbing.

Obviously none of us were there so we can't say whether keeping the climber off the ground would be a reasonable expectation in the fall that took place. No way to tell and I don't think anyone has argued as much. The main point being made is that there are better, more productive things that could have been done. That is all.

I do have to disagree with the overall tone of your post though. Generally speaking a sport belay has the widest margin of error and the pedigree of the belayer only becomes more important as you slide toward gear protected or runout climbing. When the climbing becomes R-rated I expect topnotch belaying, not an "it's not sport climbing so I hope you don't expect too much from this belay" kind of attitude.


climbsomething


Dec 15, 2009, 10:40 PM
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notapplicable wrote:
When the climbing becomes R-rated I expect topnotch belaying, not an "it's not sport climbing so I hope you don't expect too much from this belay" kind of attitude.
The curmudgeon who really taught me how to belay expects topnotch even on sport routes. I know plenty of people take a "meh"approach to belaying when it's "only" sport climbing but that's totally unacceptable.


jt512


Dec 15, 2009, 10:45 PM
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notapplicable wrote:
Generally speaking a sport belay has the widest margin of error and the pedigree of the belayer only becomes more important as you slide toward gear protected or runout climbing.

Bullshit. But regardless, I'll take a belay from an experienced sport climber over an equally experienced trad climber any day, whether I'm climbing sport or trad.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Dec 15, 2009, 10:47 PM)


aerili


Dec 15, 2009, 11:22 PM
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notapplicable wrote:
Generally speaking a sport belay has the widest margin of error and the pedigree of the belayer only becomes more important as you slide toward gear protected or runout climbing.

Yeah, I disagree. I think sport climbing requires more precise belaying than the average trad route.

People who learned to belay on trad routes primarily often scare me when belaying on sport routes: they tend to not watch you, have more slack in the rope, and anticipate your moves less.


zeke_sf


Dec 16, 2009, 1:15 AM
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jt512 wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
Generally speaking a sport belay has the widest margin of error and the pedigree of the belayer only becomes more important as you slide toward gear protected or runout climbing.

Bullshit. But regardless, I'll take a belay from an experienced sport climber over an equally experienced trad climber any day, whether I'm climbing sport or trad.

Jay

Because the sport belayer has presumably caught more falls? Or because this statement more fully perpetuates the overly wrought troll this thread has become?

*edited for syntax and to point out that, yes, kids, editing is weke***

**weak


(This post was edited by zeke_sf on Dec 16, 2009, 1:26 AM)


wonderwoman


Dec 16, 2009, 5:27 AM
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aerili wrote:
People who learned to belay on trad routes primarily often scare me when belaying on sport routes: they tend to not watch you, have more slack in the rope, and anticipate your moves less.

I have the same fears when a sport climber belays me on trad. All that you said, plus I usually have to ask them to come closer to the wall so that they're closer to being under the first piece of gear.

We all have to be ready to catch - sport or trad. In this case, it sounds as if the leader had unfortunately left the 'no-fall-zone' and it was probably ouside the experiences of both leader and belayer. It doesn't sound like the leader planned ahead for the route he was on, communicated to the newbie belayer the potential risks of a fall, or had enough experience himself to know when to back down.

That being said, I'm glad the leader is alive & hope both the belayer and leader can reflect on what the hell went wrong. While it sucks to learn lessons the hard way, self reflection may lead to self preservation. And being choosy with whom you climb.


billl7


Dec 16, 2009, 5:50 AM
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what a nightmare. i can see the next I&A thread ...

"i went trad/sport climbing and my belayer was a sport/trad belayer because I read that they were usually better belayers. oh boy did that not work out ...."

I'd suggest that the lax belays often come from folks who don't/can't see a way to trusting each other and/or who do not push their climbing limits.

Climb after climb,
* the leader never falls,
* the leader never expresses fear on lead,
* the leader never talks about why she down-climbed to clip the rope even though a blown clip there would have meant decking,
* the leader never explains how the belayer could have done a better job the next time <something> comes up,
* the leader never thanks the belayer for catching them.

... belaying is reduced pretty much to knowing what to do if the leader sez "take" and "lower". That and ... (whew!) ... we don't have to have a relationship or partnership.

Of course, there will always be some belayers who just don't take it seriously, sport or trad.

Bill L


wonderwoman


Dec 16, 2009, 5:56 AM
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billl7 wrote:
what a nightmare. i can see the next I&A thread ...

"i went trad/sport climbing and my belayer was a sport/trad belayer because I read that they were usually better belayers. oh boy did that not work out ...."

I'd suggest that the lax belays often come from folks who don't/can't see a way to trusting each other and/or who do not push their climbing limits.

Climb after climb,
* the leader never falls,
* the leader never expresses fear on lead,
* the leader never talks about why she down-climbed to clip the rope even though a blown clip there would have meant decking,
* the leader never explains how the belayer could have done a better job the next time <something> comes up,
* the leader never thanks the belayer for catching them.

... belaying is reduced pretty much to knowing what to do if the leader sez "take" and "lower". That and ... (whew!) ... we don't have to have a relationship or partnership.

Of course, there will always be some belayers who just don't take it seriously, sport or trad.

Bill L

well said!


markc


Dec 16, 2009, 7:16 AM
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robdotcalm wrote:
Trixie wrote:
Yes, we all would, but if you're unable to pull enough slack through the belay device because there's too much rope out AND you have nowhere to run to, all you're left with is diving for the ground and in my case, if there was still over 2' of slack out, that wouldn't help either. The only thing left, after all of this is grabbing the rope.

What else is left but sheer desperation? I suppose you could lie there and watch the action, but that's not something I could do.

The point is that grabbing the rope with your non-braking won't do any good (you can't stop someone that way) and can do harm in injuring the belayer's non-braking hand. This could be a serious issue on a multi-pitch climb. Also grabbing the rope can take time away from taking in rope on the brake side. What people have been telling you (usual internet insults aside) is that your proposed action has negative consequences. Not all acts of desperation are helpful.

Cheers,
Rob.calm

Agreed. The best comparison I can think of is the use of the mom arm when driving. There's no way that throwing your arm across the passenger's chest is going to be of use given the forces of a sudden stop or accident. It's an instinctual and protective reaction, but could potentially cause more harm than good.

As has been said, any slack that the belayer tries to hold on the climber strand is going to be promptly ripped through her hand with negligible benefit. While the sentiment is honorable, I'd rather leave myself uninjured.


jt512


Dec 16, 2009, 9:51 AM
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wonderwoman wrote:
aerili wrote:
People who learned to belay on trad routes primarily often scare me when belaying on sport routes: they tend to not watch you, have more slack in the rope, and anticipate your moves less.

I have the same fears when a sport climber belays me on trad. All that you said, plus I usually have to ask them to come closer to the wall so that they're closer to being under the first piece of gear.

I suspect our definitions of "sport climber" are different. Every sport climber I know started out as a trad climber. And why isn't your first piece of gear multi-directional?

Jay


jt512


Dec 16, 2009, 9:54 AM
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billl7 wrote:
* the leader never thanks the belayer for catching them.

No wonder I get hard catches.

Jay


wonderwoman


Dec 16, 2009, 10:01 AM
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jt512 wrote:
wonderwoman wrote:
aerili wrote:
People who learned to belay on trad routes primarily often scare me when belaying on sport routes: they tend to not watch you, have more slack in the rope, and anticipate your moves less.

I have the same fears when a sport climber belays me on trad. All that you said, plus I usually have to ask them to come closer to the wall so that they're closer to being under the first piece of gear.

I suspect our definitions of "sport climber" are different. Every sport climber I know started out as a trad climber. And why isn't your first piece of gear multi-directional?

Jay

My first piece of gear is always multi-directional, thank you very much. But it always reduces the pull in different directions when the belayer stands as close to underneath it as possible.


edge


Dec 16, 2009, 10:01 AM
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jt512 wrote:
wonderwoman wrote:
aerili wrote:
People who learned to belay on trad routes primarily often scare me when belaying on sport routes: they tend to not watch you, have more slack in the rope, and anticipate your moves less.

I have the same fears when a sport climber belays me on trad. All that you said, plus I usually have to ask them to come closer to the wall so that they're closer to being under the first piece of gear.

I suspect our definitions of "sport climber" are different. Every sport climber I know started out as a trad climber. And why isn't your first piece of gear multi-directional?

Jay
Must be An East vs. West thing. I bet 90% of the Northeast sport climbers learned in a gym. Sad, really, and I have opined many times herewith about this sorry state, but people who learn in a gym are... ready?... gym climbers.

I would seriously question the vast majority of Rumney climbers as serious trad partners.

And "why isn't your first piece of gear multi-directional?"

I guess AZ rock is more accommodating than New England. We frequently make due with what we have, make our best accommodations, and climb accordingly. Sometimes that means the leader is "on her own" but shouldn't that always be considered ahead of time?


billl7


Dec 16, 2009, 10:03 AM
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jt512 wrote:
wonderwoman wrote:
... ask them to come closer to the wall so that they're closer to being under the first piece of gear.
... And why isn't your first piece of gear multi-directional?
Jay
Hey, I thought you were going to start a movement to have a bolt as the first piece in every trad route ... you know, whenever omni-directional is just not possible.

edit: to fix quotations


(This post was edited by billl7 on Dec 16, 2009, 10:05 AM)


Gmburns2000


Dec 16, 2009, 10:33 AM
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edge wrote:
jt512 wrote:
wonderwoman wrote:
aerili wrote:
People who learned to belay on trad routes primarily often scare me when belaying on sport routes: they tend to not watch you, have more slack in the rope, and anticipate your moves less.

I have the same fears when a sport climber belays me on trad. All that you said, plus I usually have to ask them to come closer to the wall so that they're closer to being under the first piece of gear.

I suspect our definitions of "sport climber" are different. Every sport climber I know started out as a trad climber. And why isn't your first piece of gear multi-directional?

Jay
Must be An East vs. West thing. I bet 90% of the Northeast sport climbers learned in a gym. Sad, really, and I have opined many times herewith about this sorry state, but people who learn in a gym are... ready?... gym climbers.

I would seriously question the vast majority of Rumney climbers as serious trad partners.
And "why isn't your first piece of gear multi-directional?"

I guess AZ rock is more accommodating than New England. We frequently make due with what we have, make our best accommodations, and climb accordingly. Sometimes that means the leader is "on her own" but shouldn't that always be considered ahead of time?

+1,413,291.774865


troutboy


Dec 16, 2009, 10:38 AM
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
+1,413,291.774865

The number of significant digits in your post is in direct contradiction to your signature quote Wink. I think you better fix that.

TS


(This post was edited by troutboy on Dec 16, 2009, 10:38 AM)


Gmburns2000


Dec 16, 2009, 10:42 AM
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troutboy wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
+1,413,291.774865

The number of significant digits in your post is in direct contradiction to your signature quote Wink. I think you better fix that.

TS

meh - i've been called out enough on that to, well, not care. Laugh


wonderwoman


Dec 16, 2009, 10:53 AM
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jt512 wrote:
billl7 wrote:
* the leader never thanks the belayer for catching them.

No wonder I get hard catches.

Jay

A belayer is only allowed to give me so many hard catches before I won't let him belay me anymore. It hurts too much. If the person doesn't listen to a request for a soft catch, they probably won't listen to any other requests in the future. That's been my experience.


zeke_sf


Dec 16, 2009, 12:04 PM
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Can we at least come to a consensus opinion and say that boulderers give the worst belay?

I have been thinking about my actual experiences being belayed, and the biggest factor I have noticed influencing the quality of belay is whether the belayer leads a lot. Usually, this means they anticipate your needs as a leader better. Then again, the best belay I ever had (for whatever intangible reasons made me feel this way) was from the spouse of a hard climbing FAist, and she did not lead that much.

Sport belayer vs. Trad belayer = retarded. For one, most experienced climbers I've met have had adequate experience in both. For another, yes, "sport belayers" will have caught more falls, but "trad belayers" will have more of that fishing line feel for the rope when the leader moves out of sight. Do you "sport belay"? Are you a "trad belayer"? Is rockclimbing.com futzing over bullshit semantic wankery again? Why, yes, yes I think it is.


Gmburns2000


Dec 16, 2009, 12:15 PM
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I belay a couple of grades lower on trad than I do sport.


wonderwoman


Dec 16, 2009, 12:29 PM
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zeke_sf wrote:
Can we at least come to a consensus opinion and say that boulderers give the worst belay?

I have been thinking about my actual experiences being belayed, and the biggest factor I have noticed influencing the quality of belay is whether the belayer leads a lot. Usually, this means they anticipate your needs as a leader better. Then again, the best belay I ever had (for whatever intangible reasons made me feel this way) was from the spouse of a hard climbing FAist, and she did not lead that much.

Sport belayer vs. Trad belayer = retarded. For one, most experienced climbers I've met have had adequate experience in both. For another, yes, "sport belayers" will have caught more falls, but "trad belayers" will have more of that fishing line feel for the rope when the leader moves out of sight. Do you "sport belay"? Are you a "trad belayer"? Is rockclimbing.com futzing over bullshit semantic wankery again? Why, yes, yes I think it is.

five stars for zeke!


lena_chita
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Dec 16, 2009, 1:17 PM
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zeke_sf wrote:
Can we at least come to a consensus opinion and say that boulderers give the worst belay?

But they are the best spotters! And you need a belayer with a spotting experience if you are climbing trad... or if the first bolt is too high, and the stick clip is broken.

So you see, the best belayer is a strong boulderer who climbs both sport and trad.

Wait, I know ice-climbing should figure in this somehow, too...


ClimbClimb


Dec 16, 2009, 2:10 PM
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For all the hate heaped upon the belayer in the actual incident under discussion (remember that? see p.1), there is not much evidence that even the best belayer could've come up with a better outcome. The belayer's feelings of regret and perhaps guilt post-accident are not evidence of any actual fault. Leader took a risk, was run-out with 15-20 feet of rope past last bolt at 15 ft. That's it. It happens. Very sad. Speedy recovery to all, physical & mental.


jakedatc


Dec 16, 2009, 6:43 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
edge wrote:
jt512 wrote:
wonderwoman wrote:
aerili wrote:
People who learned to belay on trad routes primarily often scare me when belaying on sport routes: they tend to not watch you, have more slack in the rope, and anticipate your moves less.

I have the same fears when a sport climber belays me on trad. All that you said, plus I usually have to ask them to come closer to the wall so that they're closer to being under the first piece of gear.

I suspect our definitions of "sport climber" are different. Every sport climber I know started out as a trad climber. And why isn't your first piece of gear multi-directional?

Jay
Must be An East vs. West thing. I bet 90% of the Northeast sport climbers learned in a gym. Sad, really, and I have opined many times herewith about this sorry state, but people who learn in a gym are... ready?... gym climbers.

I would seriously question the vast majority of Rumney climbers as serious trad partners.
And "why isn't your first piece of gear multi-directional?"

I guess AZ rock is more accommodating than New England. We frequently make due with what we have, make our best accommodations, and climb accordingly. Sometimes that means the leader is "on her own" but shouldn't that always be considered ahead of time?

+1,413,291.774865

So gumby which rumney sport climber got you injured so many times?


Gmburns2000


Dec 16, 2009, 7:01 PM
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jakedatc wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
edge wrote:
jt512 wrote:
wonderwoman wrote:
aerili wrote:
People who learned to belay on trad routes primarily often scare me when belaying on sport routes: they tend to not watch you, have more slack in the rope, and anticipate your moves less.

I have the same fears when a sport climber belays me on trad. All that you said, plus I usually have to ask them to come closer to the wall so that they're closer to being under the first piece of gear.

I suspect our definitions of "sport climber" are different. Every sport climber I know started out as a trad climber. And why isn't your first piece of gear multi-directional?

Jay
Must be An East vs. West thing. I bet 90% of the Northeast sport climbers learned in a gym. Sad, really, and I have opined many times herewith about this sorry state, but people who learn in a gym are... ready?... gym climbers.

I would seriously question the vast majority of Rumney climbers as serious trad partners.
And "why isn't your first piece of gear multi-directional?"

I guess AZ rock is more accommodating than New England. We frequently make due with what we have, make our best accommodations, and climb accordingly. Sometimes that means the leader is "on her own" but shouldn't that always be considered ahead of time?

+1,413,291.774865

So gumby which rumney sport climber got you injured so many times?
that was easy.

oh yeah, none.


jakedatc


Dec 16, 2009, 7:13 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
jakedatc wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
edge wrote:
jt512 wrote:
wonderwoman wrote:
aerili wrote:
People who learned to belay on trad routes primarily often scare me when belaying on sport routes: they tend to not watch you, have more slack in the rope, and anticipate your moves less.

I have the same fears when a sport climber belays me on trad. All that you said, plus I usually have to ask them to come closer to the wall so that they're closer to being under the first piece of gear.

I suspect our definitions of "sport climber" are different. Every sport climber I know started out as a trad climber. And why isn't your first piece of gear multi-directional?

Jay
Must be An East vs. West thing. I bet 90% of the Northeast sport climbers learned in a gym. Sad, really, and I have opined many times herewith about this sorry state, but people who learn in a gym are... ready?... gym climbers.

I would seriously question the vast majority of Rumney climbers as serious trad partners.
And "why isn't your first piece of gear multi-directional?"

I guess AZ rock is more accommodating than New England. We frequently make due with what we have, make our best accommodations, and climb accordingly. Sometimes that means the leader is "on her own" but shouldn't that always be considered ahead of time?

+1,413,291.774865

So gumby which rumney sport climber got you injured so many times?
that was easy.

oh yeah, none.

must have been their super traddy experience and skillz that didn't save you then Tongue

Edge has actually climbed enough at Rumney to respect his opinion. you on the other hand.. should shut the fuck up because *I* wouldn't let YOU belay me.


Gmburns2000


Dec 16, 2009, 7:24 PM
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jakedatc wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
jakedatc wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
edge wrote:
jt512 wrote:
wonderwoman wrote:
aerili wrote:
People who learned to belay on trad routes primarily often scare me when belaying on sport routes: they tend to not watch you, have more slack in the rope, and anticipate your moves less.

I have the same fears when a sport climber belays me on trad. All that you said, plus I usually have to ask them to come closer to the wall so that they're closer to being under the first piece of gear.

I suspect our definitions of "sport climber" are different. Every sport climber I know started out as a trad climber. And why isn't your first piece of gear multi-directional?

Jay
Must be An East vs. West thing. I bet 90% of the Northeast sport climbers learned in a gym. Sad, really, and I have opined many times herewith about this sorry state, but people who learn in a gym are... ready?... gym climbers.

I would seriously question the vast majority of Rumney climbers as serious trad partners.
And "why isn't your first piece of gear multi-directional?"

I guess AZ rock is more accommodating than New England. We frequently make due with what we have, make our best accommodations, and climb accordingly. Sometimes that means the leader is "on her own" but shouldn't that always be considered ahead of time?

+1,413,291.774865

So gumby which rumney sport climber got you injured so many times?
that was easy.

oh yeah, none.

must have been their super traddy experience and skillz that didn't save you then Tongue

Edge has actually climbed enough at Rumney to respect his opinion. you on the other hand.. should shut the fuck up because *I* wouldn't let YOU belay me.

OH NOES! Jake won't belay me! What am I goings to does? Shocked *runz and hidez* (it's too bad. I actually give a decent catch)

Before I settled in with the Boston crowd, just as I was moving back from Europe, I lived in Manchvegas, and Rumney (well, other than that small crag under the powerlines just outside of town) was my only crag for about three to four years. No, I don't have Edge's experience, but I've climbed enough there to know that there's a reason I don't like going there if I could go to NoCo or the 'Gunks otherwise. I can always get away from the crowds at the 'Gunks.

I like Rumney. I really do. Some of my favorite climbs are there and the Baker is 10x better than Split Rock or the Saco at the end of the day (plus camping on the grass is plush compared to Slime). It's the fucking posers that frequent the place every damn weekend that I hate. I've never heard a damn radio at the crag at the 'Gunks, and if I want to get away from the damn cigs all I gotta do climb up a pitch and be done with it.

I admit though, I trolled you and, yeah, you successfully trolled me back. Tongue


jakedatc


Dec 16, 2009, 7:36 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
jakedatc wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
jakedatc wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
edge wrote:
jt512 wrote:
wonderwoman wrote:
aerili wrote:
People who learned to belay on trad routes primarily often scare me when belaying on sport routes: they tend to not watch you, have more slack in the rope, and anticipate your moves less.

I have the same fears when a sport climber belays me on trad. All that you said, plus I usually have to ask them to come closer to the wall so that they're closer to being under the first piece of gear.

I suspect our definitions of "sport climber" are different. Every sport climber I know started out as a trad climber. And why isn't your first piece of gear multi-directional?

Jay
Must be An East vs. West thing. I bet 90% of the Northeast sport climbers learned in a gym. Sad, really, and I have opined many times herewith about this sorry state, but people who learn in a gym are... ready?... gym climbers.

I would seriously question the vast majority of Rumney climbers as serious trad partners.
And "why isn't your first piece of gear multi-directional?"

I guess AZ rock is more accommodating than New England. We frequently make due with what we have, make our best accommodations, and climb accordingly. Sometimes that means the leader is "on her own" but shouldn't that always be considered ahead of time?

+1,413,291.774865

So gumby which rumney sport climber got you injured so many times?
that was easy.

oh yeah, none.

must have been their super traddy experience and skillz that didn't save you then Tongue

Edge has actually climbed enough at Rumney to respect his opinion. you on the other hand.. should shut the fuck up because *I* wouldn't let YOU belay me.

OH NOES! Jake won't belay me! What am I goings to does? Shocked *runz and hidez* (it's too bad. I actually give a decent catch)

Before I settled in with the Boston crowd, just as I was moving back from Europe, I lived in Manchvegas, and Rumney (well, other than that small crag under the powerlines just outside of town) was my only crag for about three to four years. No, I don't have Edge's experience, but I've climbed enough there to know that there's a reason I don't like going there if I could go to NoCo or the 'Gunks otherwise. I can always get away from the crowds at the 'Gunks.

I like Rumney. I really do. Some of my favorite climbs are there and the Baker is 10x better than Split Rock or the Saco at the end of the day (plus camping on the grass is plush compared to Slime). It's the fucking posers that frequent the place every damn weekend that I hate. I've never heard a damn radio at the crag at the 'Gunks, and if I want to get away from the damn cigs all I gotta do climb up a pitch and be done with it.

I admit though, I trolled you and, yeah, you successfully trolled me back. Tongue

Never been heard a radio at rumney, never stay at walls with gumbys, can easily avoid crowds on weekends even when there are cars on the road. Can't always avoid the "ON BELAY ON MARIA, FROGSHEAD, HIGH EEEEEEEE!!!!!1111" not to mention the rope cutting, guide leaving clients on top of a free hanging rappel alone and screaming. Oh and this last time a 5 year old crying on High exposure scared of of his mind. AND a guy belaying his leader up P2 of High e taking his hand off the brake... skills!!

no posers at the gunks? please... folks with like triples in everything all shiny REI tags still on their harness clanking in to do Beginners delight and Yum yum

mostly i'm saying that the whole "trad belayer vs sport belayer" shit is stupid. there are good belayers and bad belayers


wonderwoman


Dec 16, 2009, 7:46 PM
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Holy smokes! Yum Yum Yab Yum is one crazy ass 5.3, and I certainly hope no beginner climbers can find it to have an epic on it. I'd certainly get on it again. It's a huge 5.3 overhanging traverse with a thin seam to protect. Your fanny is hanging over nothing but the view of the Hudson valley below. You'll never wait in line for it & it's awesome!


jakedatc


Dec 16, 2009, 7:55 PM
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wonderwoman wrote:
Holy smokes! Yum Yum Yab Yum is one crazy ass 5.3, and I certainly hope no beginner climbers can find it to have an epic on it. I'd certainly get on it again. It's a huge 5.3 overhanging traverse with a thin seam to protect. Your fanny is hanging over nothing but the view of the Hudson valley below. You'll never wait in line for it & it's awesome!

Sounds like fun ;) though i don't tend to go to the nears.. goes to show what looking in the guide book for easy shit can get you in trouble :) Beginners delight has a pretty freaky to the uninitiated hand traverse under a roof also


wonderwoman


Dec 16, 2009, 8:01 PM
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jakedatc wrote:
wonderwoman wrote:
Holy smokes! Yum Yum Yab Yum is one crazy ass 5.3, and I certainly hope no beginner climbers can find it to have an epic on it. I'd certainly get on it again. It's a huge 5.3 overhanging traverse with a thin seam to protect. Your fanny is hanging over nothing but the view of the Hudson valley below. You'll never wait in line for it & it's awesome!

Sounds like fun ;) though i don't tend to go to the nears.. goes to show what looking in the guide book for easy shit can get you in trouble :) Beginners delight has a pretty freaky to the uninitiated hand traverse under a roof also

never tried that one. But for some freak reason, I LOVE TRAVERSES! So, maybe I'll check it out next season.


jakedatc


Dec 16, 2009, 8:09 PM
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Wrist P2 traverse.. uber fun.. becc said i'd crap myself but it was fun.

don't wait around for Beg. delight. it's not that great


notapplicable


Dec 16, 2009, 11:30 PM
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climbsomething wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
When the climbing becomes R-rated I expect topnotch belaying, not an "it's not sport climbing so I hope you don't expect too much from this belay" kind of attitude.
The curmudgeon who really taught me how to belay expects topnotch even on sport routes. I know plenty of people take a "meh"approach to belaying when it's "only" sport climbing but that's totally unacceptable.

Yeah now that I go back and read my post, it doesn't convey anything close to what I intended. When I said that "a sport belay has the widest margin for error" I only meant to say that the frequency and reliability of the protection eliminates certain variables that make it (IMO) an overall safer medium for new or inexperienced belayers to take part in. There is obviously the question of the increased frequency of falling and I have to admit that I did not consider that in my original response.

At the end of the day I expect a persons best on every belay and part of that is understanding that what defines a good belay varies with the route and style of protection.


hansundfritz


Dec 17, 2009, 6:15 AM
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The thread has finally drifted into something I know about: easy climbs at the Gunks.

I've done BG at least a dozen times. Never waited in line once. P2 and P3 are great. On P2, if you climb all the way up the huge corner before traversing, it is harder and less protectable. Better to start traversing sooner. There used to be a pin on the traverse. I wonder if it is still there? Swain's comment still rings true: 'Quite the exciting 5.3!"

Oh yeah -- the accident on Mt. Lemmon. Poor judgment by the leader -- needless run-out. Hope he recovers quickly.


Gmburns2000


Dec 17, 2009, 6:19 AM
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jakedatc wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
jakedatc wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
jakedatc wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
edge wrote:
jt512 wrote:
wonderwoman wrote:
aerili wrote:
People who learned to belay on trad routes primarily often scare me when belaying on sport routes: they tend to not watch you, have more slack in the rope, and anticipate your moves less.

I have the same fears when a sport climber belays me on trad. All that you said, plus I usually have to ask them to come closer to the wall so that they're closer to being under the first piece of gear.

I suspect our definitions of "sport climber" are different. Every sport climber I know started out as a trad climber. And why isn't your first piece of gear multi-directional?

Jay
Must be An East vs. West thing. I bet 90% of the Northeast sport climbers learned in a gym. Sad, really, and I have opined many times herewith about this sorry state, but people who learn in a gym are... ready?... gym climbers.

I would seriously question the vast majority of Rumney climbers as serious trad partners.
And "why isn't your first piece of gear multi-directional?"

I guess AZ rock is more accommodating than New England. We frequently make due with what we have, make our best accommodations, and climb accordingly. Sometimes that means the leader is "on her own" but shouldn't that always be considered ahead of time?

+1,413,291.774865

So gumby which rumney sport climber got you injured so many times?
that was easy.

oh yeah, none.

must have been their super traddy experience and skillz that didn't save you then Tongue

Edge has actually climbed enough at Rumney to respect his opinion. you on the other hand.. should shut the fuck up because *I* wouldn't let YOU belay me.

OH NOES! Jake won't belay me! What am I goings to does? Shocked *runz and hidez* (it's too bad. I actually give a decent catch)

Before I settled in with the Boston crowd, just as I was moving back from Europe, I lived in Manchvegas, and Rumney (well, other than that small crag under the powerlines just outside of town) was my only crag for about three to four years. No, I don't have Edge's experience, but I've climbed enough there to know that there's a reason I don't like going there if I could go to NoCo or the 'Gunks otherwise. I can always get away from the crowds at the 'Gunks.

I like Rumney. I really do. Some of my favorite climbs are there and the Baker is 10x better than Split Rock or the Saco at the end of the day (plus camping on the grass is plush compared to Slime). It's the fucking posers that frequent the place every damn weekend that I hate. I've never heard a damn radio at the crag at the 'Gunks, and if I want to get away from the damn cigs all I gotta do climb up a pitch and be done with it.

I admit though, I trolled you and, yeah, you successfully trolled me back. Tongue

Never been heard a radio at rumney, never stay at walls with gumbys, can easily avoid crowds on weekends even when there are cars on the road. Can't always avoid the "ON BELAY ON MARIA, FROGSHEAD, HIGH EEEEEEEE!!!!!1111" not to mention the rope cutting, guide leaving clients on top of a free hanging rappel alone and screaming. Oh and this last time a 5 year old crying on High exposure scared of of his mind. AND a guy belaying his leader up P2 of High e taking his hand off the brake... skills!!

no posers at the gunks? please... folks with like triples in everything all shiny REI tags still on their harness clanking in to do Beginners delight and Yum yum

mostly i'm saying that the whole "trad belayer vs sport belayer" shit is stupid. there are good belayers and bad belayers

Nah, like Rumney, the 'Gunks aren't that busy if you know where to go. That whole Maria wall area is crowded, sure, but I try real hard not to go there unless it is early in the morning or late Sunday afternoon. Otherwise, it's the ends of the Nears and Trapps.

Oddly, I've always found the Meadows at Rumney to be the least crowded on weekends. Crazy


blueeyedclimber


Dec 17, 2009, 7:23 AM
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jt512 wrote:
wonderwoman wrote:
aerili wrote:
People who learned to belay on trad routes primarily often scare me when belaying on sport routes: they tend to not watch you, have more slack in the rope, and anticipate your moves less.

I have the same fears when a sport climber belays me on trad. All that you said, plus I usually have to ask them to come closer to the wall so that they're closer to being under the first piece of gear.

I suspect our definitions of "sport climber" are different. Every sport climber I know started out as a trad climber. And why isn't your first piece of gear multi-directional?

Jay

As Edge mentioned, this may be an East/West thing or it may be a generational thing. From my experience, younger climbers or even most climbers to start in the last decade have mainly followed the progression of gym to toprope to sport to trad (myself included).

As for multi-directional pieces as a first piece, sometimes that's just not possible and belayer position becomes extremely important in this regard. It might be nice to have a bolt or a nice horizontal crack 15 feet up every time, but that's not always going to happen.

As for the op, belaying aside, I hope that she now realizes that she has the right to refuse a belay if she feels that her experience is not up to par. So called "experieced" climbers do not necessarily have the judgement that you might expect.

Josh


jt512


Dec 17, 2009, 9:44 AM
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blueeyedclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
I suspect our definitions of "sport climber" are different. Every sport climber I know started out as a trad climber. And why isn't your first piece of gear multi-directional?

Jay

As Edge mentioned, this may be an East/West thing or it may be a generational thing.

It's mostly generational, but there may be a local thing, too. Both Yosemite and J Tree have climbing schools that offer classes for complete beginners. So it is easy for someone out here to start climbing outdoors right from the start.

In reply to:
As for multi-directional pieces as a first piece, sometimes that's just not possible and belayer position becomes extremely important in this regard. It might be nice to have a bolt or a nice horizontal crack 15 feet up every time, but that's not always going to happen.

I think that the proportion of routes where the first piece cannot be multidirectional is one of the classic exaggerations of rockclimbing.com. I can count on one hand the number of times I've had to slot an unopposed nut for my first piece, but I quickly run out of fingers and toes trying to count the times that I've seen other climbers do it when they could have either opposed the nut or placed a cam (and, yes, a cam in a vertical crack is usually good enough for this purpose).

Jay


markc


Dec 17, 2009, 12:00 PM
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blueeyedclimber wrote:
As for the op, belaying aside, I hope that she now realizes that she has the right to refuse a belay if she feels that her experience is not up to par. So called "experieced" climbers do not necessarily have the judgement that you might expect.

Something that's been discussed is that the most dangerous time in someone's climbing development may be between 2 - 4 years. The person knows enough to gain confidence and climb independently, but isn't seasoned. (Of course, that's a large generalization with a very flexible timeframe.)

For a new climber, 'experienced' is relative, and almost everyone is more experienced than you are. When I started climbing, the guys I went with generally had their wits about them. If they hadn't, I might not have had the wherewithal to realize it initially.


troutboy


Dec 17, 2009, 12:02 PM
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jt512 wrote:
I think that the proportion of routes where the first piece cannot be multidirectional is one of the classic exaggerations of rockclimbing.com. Jay

Interesting observation. My conclusions also, but then my data set is greatly skewed from climbing at the Gunks where horizontals are king. I've often wondered whether I just forgot about the times I needed to do something special for multidirectional pieces or whether finding the multidirectional first piece really is not much of an issue. Maybe it's an experience thing - the longer you climb the easier it might be to spot the multidirectional placement and use it over a more obvious, unidirectional placement.

TS


blueeyedclimber


Dec 17, 2009, 12:30 PM
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jt512 wrote:

In reply to:
As for multi-directional pieces as a first piece, sometimes that's just not possible and belayer position becomes extremely important in this regard. It might be nice to have a bolt or a nice horizontal crack 15 feet up every time, but that's not always going to happen.

I think that the proportion of routes where the first piece cannot be multidirectional is one of the classic exaggerations of rockclimbing.com. I can count on one hand the number of times I've had to slot an unopposed nut for my first piece, but I quickly run out of fingers and toes trying to count the times that I've seen other climbers do it when they could have either opposed the nut or placed a cam (and, yes, a cam in a vertical crack is usually good enough for this purpose).

Jay

And I've done it only a handful of times as well. I was neither trying to espouse a random proportion of times it happens nor exaggerating it's existence. I was merely saying that it does happen. Out of those times that I have slotted a nut (btw a nut CAN be multidirectional), it was usually to protect one move or sequence and then I was looking for a multidirectional SECOND piece.


jt512


Dec 17, 2009, 1:34 PM
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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blueeyedclimber wrote:
btw a nut CAN be multidirectional

Was that supposed to be for my edification?

Jay


dugl33


Dec 17, 2009, 2:00 PM
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Re: [robdotcalm] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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I think many accidents / epics are the result of a series of missteps or less than ideal choices. I've been able to trace this with the f ups of others and my own epics as well.

In this case...

step 0. leader misjudges risk, own abilities, or both
step 1. leader skips the intermediate pro
step 2. leader runs-it out all the way to the next bolt
step 3. leader takes an armload of slack to clip (apparently with a less than great stance)
step 4. leader blows the clip with slack out!

Jab, jab, knock-out punch. The leader blew the clip, and this simply wasn't an option given the run out and the skipped pro opportunity.

Any contribution to the f up from the belayer in this case is secondary and hard to prove with what's known, yet this has been the primary focus of the thread. The leader pushed into a don't f-up situation, and then proceeded to do exactly that.


blueeyedclimber


Dec 17, 2009, 2:41 PM
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Re: [jt512] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
btw a nut CAN be multidirectional

Was that supposed to be for my edification?

Jay

That depends. Did you learn anything?


jt512


Dec 17, 2009, 3:03 PM
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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blueeyedclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
btw a nut CAN be multidirectional

Was that supposed to be for my edification?

Jay

That depends. Did you learn anything?

No.


blueeyedclimber


Dec 17, 2009, 3:09 PM
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Re: [jt512] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
btw a nut CAN be multidirectional

Was that supposed to be for my edification?

Jay

That depends. Did you learn anything?

No.

Other than being upset that you think I may have been inferring that you might not know something, do you have any problem with anything else that I said? This incessant nitpicking is getting old.

Josh


jt512


Dec 17, 2009, 3:12 PM
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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blueeyedclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
btw a nut CAN be multidirectional

Was that supposed to be for my edification?

Jay

That depends. Did you learn anything?

No.

Other than being upset that you think I may have been inferring that you might not know something, do you have any problem with anything else that I said? This incessant nitpicking is getting old.

Josh

Show me where I nitpicked.

Jay


blueeyedclimber


Dec 17, 2009, 3:16 PM
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Re: [jt512] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
btw a nut CAN be multidirectional

Was that supposed to be for my edification?

Jay

That depends. Did you learn anything?

No.

Other than being upset that you think I may have been inferring that you might not know something, do you have any problem with anything else that I said? This incessant nitpicking is getting old.

Josh

Show me where I nitpicked.

Jay

You pick out parts of posts that you feel you can make a negative comment on and leave the rest out. I was merely commenting that nuts can be multi-directional because many people don't know that. You took it personally. Nitpick.


jt512


Dec 17, 2009, 3:21 PM
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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blueeyedclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
btw a nut CAN be multidirectional

Was that supposed to be for my edification?

Jay

That depends. Did you learn anything?

No.

Other than being upset that you think I may have been inferring that you might not know something, do you have any problem with anything else that I said? This incessant nitpicking is getting old.

Josh

Show me where I nitpicked.

Jay

You pick out parts of posts that you feel you can make a negative comment on and leave the rest out. I was merely commenting that nuts can be multi-directional because many people don't know that. You took it personally. Nitpick.

Well, I could correct your definition of nitpicking, but I guess that would be nitpicking.

Jay


blueeyedclimber


Dec 17, 2009, 3:26 PM
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Re: [jt512] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
btw a nut CAN be multidirectional

Was that supposed to be for my edification?

Jay

That depends. Did you learn anything?

No.

Other than being upset that you think I may have been inferring that you might not know something, do you have any problem with anything else that I said? This incessant nitpicking is getting old.

Josh

Show me where I nitpicked.

Jay

You pick out parts of posts that you feel you can make a negative comment on and leave the rest out. I was merely commenting that nuts can be multi-directional because many people don't know that. You took it personally. Nitpick.

Well, I could correct your definition of nitpicking, but I guess that would be nitpicking.

Jay

Yes, I guess it would be. Having had a child who actually had nits this Fall maybe I should be more familiar with the definition. What word would you have used for someone who loves to pick out things and make negative comments just for the sake of it?
Tongue
Cool


jt512


Dec 17, 2009, 3:30 PM
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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blueeyedclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
btw a nut CAN be multidirectional

Was that supposed to be for my edification?

Jay

That depends. Did you learn anything?

No.

Other than being upset that you think I may have been inferring that you might not know something, do you have any problem with anything else that I said? This incessant nitpicking is getting old.

Josh

Show me where I nitpicked.

Jay

You pick out parts of posts that you feel you can make a negative comment on and leave the rest out. I was merely commenting that nuts can be multi-directional because many people don't know that. You took it personally. Nitpick.

Well, I could correct your definition of nitpicking, but I guess that would be nitpicking.

Jay

Yes, I guess it would be. Having had a child who actually had nits this Fall maybe I should be more familiar with the definition. What word would you have used for someone who loves to pick out things and make negative comments just for the sake of it?
Tongue
Cool

I didn't make any negative comments. I just asked if your comment was intended specifically for me.

Jay


blueeyedclimber


Dec 17, 2009, 3:31 PM
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Re: [jt512] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
btw a nut CAN be multidirectional

Was that supposed to be for my edification?

Jay

That depends. Did you learn anything?

No.

Other than being upset that you think I may have been inferring that you might not know something, do you have any problem with anything else that I said? This incessant nitpicking is getting old.

Josh

Show me where I nitpicked.

Jay

You pick out parts of posts that you feel you can make a negative comment on and leave the rest out. I was merely commenting that nuts can be multi-directional because many people don't know that. You took it personally. Nitpick.

Well, I could correct your definition of nitpicking, but I guess that would be nitpicking.

Jay

Yes, I guess it would be. Having had a child who actually had nits this Fall maybe I should be more familiar with the definition. What word would you have used for someone who loves to pick out things and make negative comments just for the sake of it?
Tongue
Cool

I didn't make any negative comments. I just asked if your comment was intended specifically for me.

Jay

No, it wasn't. I guess we're done here.


boymeetsrock


Dec 17, 2009, 5:16 PM
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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blueeyedclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
btw a nut CAN be multidirectional

Was that supposed to be for my edification?

Jay

That depends. Did you learn anything?

No.

Other than being upset that you think I may have been inferring that you might not know something, do you have any problem with anything else that I said? This incessant nitpicking is getting old.

Josh

Show me where I nitpicked.

Jay

You pick out parts of posts that you feel you can make a negative comment on and leave the rest out. I was merely commenting that nuts can be multi-directional because many people don't know that. You took it personally. Nitpick.

Well, I could correct your definition of nitpicking, but I guess that would be nitpicking.

Jay

Yes, I guess it would be. Having had a child who actually had nits this Fall maybe I should be more familiar with the definition. What word would you have used for someone who loves to pick out things and make negative comments just for the sake of it?
Tongue
Cool

I didn't make any negative comments. I just asked if your comment was intended specifically for me.

Jay

No, it wasn't. I guess we're done here.


*damn*

I though you had a chance there Josh. I was rooting for you!

If you want to call Jay out though, you have to simplify every statement down to its most basic point. Can't give that guy anything to work with! Laugh


zeke_sf


Dec 18, 2009, 4:26 AM
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Re: [boymeetsrock] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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boymeetsrock wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
btw a nut CAN be multidirectional

Was that supposed to be for my edification?

Jay

That depends. Did you learn anything?

No.

Other than being upset that you think I may have been inferring that you might not know something, do you have any problem with anything else that I said? This incessant nitpicking is getting old.

Josh

Show me where I nitpicked.

Jay

You pick out parts of posts that you feel you can make a negative comment on and leave the rest out. I was merely commenting that nuts can be multi-directional because many people don't know that. You took it personally. Nitpick.

Well, I could correct your definition of nitpicking, but I guess that would be nitpicking.

Jay

Yes, I guess it would be. Having had a child who actually had nits this Fall maybe I should be more familiar with the definition. What word would you have used for someone who loves to pick out things and make negative comments just for the sake of it?
Tongue
Cool

I didn't make any negative comments. I just asked if your comment was intended specifically for me.

Jay

No, it wasn't. I guess we're done here.


*damn*

I though you had a chance there Josh. I was rooting for you!

If you want to call Jay out though, you have to simplify every statement down to its most basic point. Can't give that guy anything to work with! Laugh

You ignorant bitch.

Hmmm... I believe that's the lean core of almost every JT512 post I've ever read. At least it's an ethos, I guess.


olderic


Dec 18, 2009, 8:25 AM
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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blueeyedclimber wrote:
Yes, I guess it would be. Having had a child who actually had nits this Fall maybe I should be more familiar with the definition. What word would you have used for someone who loves to pick out things and make negative comments just for the sake of it?

That's easy. The "word" would be JT512. In fact nit-picking seems to be his only skill.


boymeetsrock


Dec 18, 2009, 8:48 AM
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Re: [zeke_sf] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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Heh. Say what you will about the man, Dude... At least he has an ethos. Unsure


blueeyedclimber


Dec 18, 2009, 4:11 PM
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Re: [olderic] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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olderic wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
Yes, I guess it would be. Having had a child who actually had nits this Fall maybe I should be more familiar with the definition. What word would you have used for someone who loves to pick out things and make negative comments just for the sake of it?

That's easy. The "word" would be JT512. In fact nit-picking seems to be his only skill.

Now, Eric, I think we already determined that Jay doesn't nit pick. I mean when you take out nits, you want to get EVERY last one. Jay only picks out certain nits. You know, the ones who can't spell, misuse words, or don't agree with him.

Angelic


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