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notapplicable


Dec 12, 2009, 4:49 PM
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Re: [Trixie] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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Trixie wrote:
Thanks for that explanation. You're right, 2 feet of slack removed is better than nothing. I really hope I never end up in that situation, it does seem to be a lose/lose one.

TrixieCool

I hope you never end up in that situation too but I'd say the odds aren't in your favor, I know they weren't in mine. If you think about it, it doesn't have to be a situation nearly as extreme as the one in the OP. Even in the sport climbing world there are routes (one could argue they are poorly bolted but thats not really the point) where someone clipping the second bolt above their head can easily break an ankle or worse.

All you can really do is be a student of the art and hope your inevitable mistakes are small enough that you can learn from them without anyone actually getting hurt. Thats the approach I've tried to take anyway.


Trixie


Dec 12, 2009, 5:45 PM
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Re: [jt512] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
Trixie wrote:
Thanks for that explanation. You're right, 2 feet of slack removed is better than nothing. I really hope I never end up in that situation, it does seem to be a lose/lose one.

TrixieCool

Please wake up and start taking this sport seriously. If you climb long enough you almost certainly will be in a situation (more than once) when your actions as a belayer will (or won't) keep your partner from decking. If don't think you can handle that coolly and competently, find another sport.

Jay

What makes you think I'm not taking this sport seriously?? I've been in situations where my actions as a belayer are all that stands between my partner decking or dangling. The situation I'm talking about is this specific one where the climber was approx 15' above his first and only piece of pro and had enough rope out that he would deck. Oh, and the fact that the belayer was unhappy with the situation, but the climber continued anyway.

Thanks sooo much for your encouragement Mad I'll remember never to be so impertinent to ask questions again and will remain in a state of rampant ignorance, allowing you to remain contemptuous. I'm obviously not worthy Unsure


jt512


Dec 12, 2009, 6:06 PM
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Re: [Trixie] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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Trixie wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Trixie wrote:
Thanks for that explanation. You're right, 2 feet of slack removed is better than nothing. I really hope I never end up in that situation, it does seem to be a lose/lose one.

TrixieCool

Please wake up and start taking this sport seriously. If you climb long enough you almost certainly will be in a situation (more than once) when your actions as a belayer will (or won't) keep your partner from decking. If don't think you can handle that coolly and competently, find another sport.

Jay

The situation I'm talking about is this specific one where the climber was approx 15' above his first and only piece of pro and had enough rope out that he would deck. Oh, and the fact that the belayer was unhappy with the situation, but the climber continued anyway.

On most sport climbs you belay, you'll be in a situation where your partner will be in decking range when clipping the second bolt. There is absolutely nothing unusual about this situation; you'll be in it routinely. If the only reason your partner is in decking range is because he's 15 feet above his last pro, you should be happy, because at least then you'll have time to do something useful (provided you don't fuck up and uselessly grab the wrong side of the rope).

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Dec 12, 2009, 6:12 PM)


socalclimber


Dec 12, 2009, 7:22 PM
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Re: [jt512] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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Trixie, here's the simple jist of the matter. Climbing is alot more than just going up the rock. It requires foresightand thought. Something that appears to be completely lost on the modern day climber. This includes about 90% of the people on this site.

Hopefully you won't fall into this category.

This isn't jogging or roller blading. This is serious. The accident rates in the last 7 to 8 years speak for themselves.

Stupid people are flocking to the crags and getting hurt and/or ending up dead.

(sorry, needed some editing)


(This post was edited by socalclimber on Dec 12, 2009, 7:37 PM)


notapplicable


Dec 12, 2009, 7:51 PM
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Re: [socalclimber] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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socalclimber wrote:
Trixie, here's the simple jist of the matter. Climbing is alot more than just going up the rock. It requires forsight and thought. Something that appears to be completely lost on the modern day climber. This includes about 90% of the people on this site.

Hopefully you won't fall into this catagory.

This isn't jogging or roller blading. This is serous. The accident rates in the last 7 to 8 years speak for themselves.

Stupid people are flocking to the crags and getting hurt and/or dieing.

While I generally agree with the sentiment and was most definitely a ranking member of that party in the past, I think Trixie has you and jt on this one.

Believe it or not, some people are open to learning and evolving their understanding of the sport. When they ask questions they genuinely want to know how they can be better or safer.

There are plenty of appropriate opportunities to be a dick round these parts, hell CrazyPete is creating a new one every week it seems, but this isn't one of em.


socalclimber


Dec 12, 2009, 8:08 PM
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Re: [notapplicable] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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I'll respond to this in tomorrow.


zeke_sf


Dec 12, 2009, 8:10 PM
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Re: [socalclimber] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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Great. Forecast is threat of response tomorrow. Might as well shoot myself.


jt512


Dec 12, 2009, 8:43 PM
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Re: [notapplicable] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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notapplicable wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
Trixie, here's the simple jist of the matter. Climbing is alot more than just going up the rock. It requires forsight and thought. Something that appears to be completely lost on the modern day climber. This includes about 90% of the people on this site.

Hopefully you won't fall into this catagory.

This isn't jogging or roller blading. This is serous. The accident rates in the last 7 to 8 years speak for themselves.

Stupid people are flocking to the crags and getting hurt and/or dieing.

While I generally agree with the sentiment and was most definitely a ranking member of that party in the past, I think Trixie has you and jt on this one.

I'm not questioning Trixie's willingness to learn. But something has gone desperately wrong with the way climbers are being introduced to the sport. I can tell you with certainty, that since the very first day I ever climbed, I would not have attempted to shorten a climber's fall by pulling in slack on the climber's side of the rope; through some combination of training and common sense I'd have pulled the rope through the belay device and/or run back and/or dived to the ground. And here we have one climber in Tucson who did the wrong thing (and even after time to think about it) thinks she's a hero, and another (Trixie) who said she would do the same. What has gone wrong?

Jay


rightarmbad


Dec 12, 2009, 10:02 PM
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Re: [jt512] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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In reply to:
But something has gone desperately wrong with the way climbers are being introduced to the sport.

So true


notapplicable


Dec 13, 2009, 1:01 AM
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Re: [jt512] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
I'm not questioning Trixie's willingness to learn. But something has gone desperately wrong with the way climbers are being introduced to the sport.

This is exactly right and a large source of the problem.

Anymore people are brought to climbing though a hundred different avenues and aren't compelled to give it the respect such an unforgiving engagement deserves. It has been lumped in with all the other "everyman" sports and while I agree that instinct should tell a person this is serious business, I understand how someone could lose sight of that given how it is advertised and practiced.

I kind of split the difference in how I came to climbing. The first time I was exposed to it I watched from the north summit of seneca rocks while two men worked their way to the southern summit and was completely inspired by watching their slow but deliberate progress. A few months later I visited a local gym for the first time, within two weeks I was leading sport and 2-3 weeks later I was leading on gear. I came to climbing rather organically but it was so accessible and easy to take up that I got right in over my head.

One thing that continues to influence my approach to the sport are conversations with folks like yourself on here. That and reading through parts of the archive has changed my perspective on a lot of things from ethics to technique to anchor construction and most importantly safety. In many ways RC.com helped to offset my total lack of mentoring. I know we talk a lot of shit and goof off in community but I think the more experienced folks on here really do have something to offer. Some people are actually listening to whats being said.

In reply to:
I can tell you with certainty, that since the very first day I ever climbed, I would not have attempted to shorten a climber's fall by pulling in slack on the climber's side of the rope; through some combination of training and common sense I'd have pulled the rope through the belay device and/or run back and/or dived to the ground. And here we have one climber in Tucson who did the wrong thing (and even after time to think about it) thinks she's a hero, and another (Trixie) who said she would do the same. What has gone wrong?

Jay

A lot has gone wrong and some are just beyond hope but I think there is promise in those who know and admit that they are novices. If they are willing to listen and work to advance their knowledge, that behavior should be encouraged.

I think it's worth trying to differentiate between and treat differently those who will listen to reason and those who won't. That is really my only point.


edit - spelling


(This post was edited by notapplicable on Dec 13, 2009, 1:02 AM)


socalclimber


Dec 13, 2009, 3:45 AM
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Re: [notapplicable] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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notapplicable wrote:
jt512 wrote:
I'm not questioning Trixie's willingness to learn. But something has gone desperately wrong with the way climbers are being introduced to the sport.

This is exactly right and a large source of the problem.

Anymore people are brought to climbing though a hundred different avenues and aren't compelled to give it the respect such an unforgiving engagement deserves. It has been lumped in with all the other "everyman" sports and while I agree that instinct should tell a person this is serious business, I understand how someone could lose sight of that given how it is advertised and practiced.

I kind of split the difference in how I came to climbing. The first time I was exposed to it I watched from the north summit of seneca rocks while two men worked their way to the southern summit and was completely inspired by watching their slow but deliberate progress. A few months later I visited a local gym for the first time, within two weeks I was leading sport and 2-3 weeks later I was leading on gear. I came to climbing rather organically but it was so accessible and easy to take up that I got right in over my head.

One thing that continues to influence my approach to the sport are conversations with folks like yourself on here. That and reading through parts of the archive has changed my perspective on a lot of things from ethics to technique to anchor construction and most importantly safety. In many ways RC.com helped to offset my total lack of mentoring. I know we talk a lot of shit and goof off in community but I think the more experienced folks on here really do have something to offer. Some people are actually listening to whats being said.

In reply to:
I can tell you with certainty, that since the very first day I ever climbed, I would not have attempted to shorten a climber's fall by pulling in slack on the climber's side of the rope; through some combination of training and common sense I'd have pulled the rope through the belay device and/or run back and/or dived to the ground. And here we have one climber in Tucson who did the wrong thing (and even after time to think about it) thinks she's a hero, and another (Trixie) who said she would do the same. What has gone wrong?

Jay

A lot has gone wrong and some are just beyond hope but I think there is promise in those who know and admit that they are novices. If they are willing to listen and work to advance their knowledge, that behavior should be encouraged.

I think it's worth trying to differentiate between and treat differently those who will listen to reason and those who won't. That is really my only point.


edit - spelling

I'll concede to this. Point taken.

One of the big problems I have seen is that both the gyms and sport climbing world seem to be breeding a mentality that falling is no big deal. Couple that with people who clearly don't know how to belay, and we get accidents like this one.


Trixie


Dec 13, 2009, 5:28 AM
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Re: [jt512] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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In reply to:
through some combination of training and common sense I'd have pulled the rope through the belay device and/or run back and/or dived to the ground.

Yes, we all would, but if you're unable to pull enough slack through the belay device because there's too much rope out AND you have nowhere to run to, all you're left with is diving for the ground and in my case, if there was still over 2' of slack out, that wouldn't help either. The only thing left, after all of this is grabbing the rope.

That's why I asked a while back how long it would take an average belayer to get 6' of slack through a belay device. According to someone else who posted on this thread, you'd have less than 2 seconds to shift that slack.

So what would you do if you can't get enough slack out of the rope to stop a climber decking? Yes, I know, you wouldn't get into that position in the first place Angelic but if you were in that position, what would you do? What else is left but sheer desperation? I suppose you could lie there and watch the action, but that's not something I could do.

I am genuinely interested in this situation, I want to learn, as notapplicable suggests. I guess some of us have to learn from scratch and others are born with encyclopaedic climbing knowledge.

Trixie (aka utterly fucking stoopid gumby noob who apparently doesn't realise that climbing is a dangerous business and should get rid of her harness etc and start basketweaving)


billl7


Dec 13, 2009, 7:10 AM
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Re: [Trixie] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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Panic can have UNpredictable results, especially for the inexperienced / unknowledgable. We reach down into things in ourselves that are not well understood and often not applicable. From the genders of the involved folks, here and in the accident, one might conclude that deep inside men don't give a damn about the leader and women do (whether or not a different belayer could have mattered).

But training and knowledge are collectively things that are better understood. That is the "high moral ground" that whats-his-fuck and wanna-be-old-testament-god are ram-rodding.

Cheers!
Bill L


(This post was edited by billl7 on Dec 13, 2009, 7:13 AM)


mheyman


Dec 13, 2009, 7:20 AM
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Re: [jt512] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
On most sport climbs you belay, you'll be in a situation where your partner will be in decking range when clipping the second bolt. There is absolutely nothing unusual about this situation; you'll be in it routinely. If the only reason your partner is in decking range is because he's 15 feet above his last pro, you should be happy, because at least then you'll have time to do something useful (provided you don't fuck up and uselessly grab the wrong side of the rope).Jay

Trying to understand what you feel is wrong here. The fastest way I can feed rope in either direction is to feed with both hands, one on each side of the belay device. This might be described or even look as “grabbing the wrong side of the rope. But, that description would be incomplete.

In this situation I’d be taking in rope until there was some tension in the rope. At which point I’d switch to locking and dropping. I‘d have guessed I’d get one good armful. Maybe in this situation since should have known it mattered so much I’d get another ½ an armful.


billl7


Dec 13, 2009, 8:28 AM
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Re: [notapplicable] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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notapplicable wrote:
While I generally agree with the sentiment and was most definitely a ranking member of that party in the past, I think Trixie has you and jt on this one.
... and thanks for expressing that sentiment. My words were failing me.


jcrew


Dec 13, 2009, 8:45 AM
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Re: [billl7] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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i thougt the OP was kinda strange..... if you'e leading you should know when you're getting into the "no-fall zone", and you shouldn't have to deal with negitive vibes fom the belayer. as a belyer, you've gotta know when you move from regular belay mode, to deck-saving belay mode, to spotter mode, all without causing fear or panic.

edit: judging from the combative tone of the belayer's posts, especially rule #2 on the list of lessons, i wonder how these people ever come to rope up together in the first place? do they meet online? this seems to me to be the only explanation


(This post was edited by jcrew on Dec 13, 2009, 9:48 AM)


jt512


Dec 13, 2009, 10:02 AM
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Trixie wrote:
In reply to:
through some combination of training and common sense I'd have pulled the rope through the belay device and/or run back and/or dived to the ground.

Yes, we all would, but if you're unable to pull enough slack through the belay device because there's too much rope out AND you have nowhere to run to, all you're left with is diving for the ground and in my case, if there was still over 2' of slack out, that wouldn't help either. The only thing left, after all of this is grabbing the rope.

You'll never be in that situation if you react correctly in the first place. The leader falls; you've got 1.3 seconds to react. Here's what the accident belayer did: Nothing for 1.0 seconds; then she grabbed the rope. Here's what she should have done: Spent 1.3 seconds pulling in as much slack as she could while diving to the ground. Two points. One: she didn't react properly in the first place, then she did the wrong thing. Two: you should never be in a position where you don't have time to pull in slack, but somehow have time to grab the rope; use all your available time to pull as much slack out of the system as you can; then lock off at the last instant. This implies that you must not belay with the rope locked off in the first place, like you were most likely taught—you can't pull rope in fast enough from a locked off position.

In reply to:
That's why I asked a while back how long it would take an average belayer to get 6' of slack through a belay device.

More time than this belayer had. But spending the available time taking in slack will always be more effective than spending part of that time grabbing the leader's side of the rope.

In reply to:
So what would you do if you can't get enough slack out of the rope to stop a climber decking? Yes, I know, you wouldn't get into that position in the first place Angelic but if you were in that position, what would you do? What else is left but sheer desperation? I suppose you could lie there and watch the action, but that's not something I could do.

I'd pull in more slack. How can you have time to grab the rope, but not time to pull in slack? Time is time; it's just a question of how you use it. Don't lock off the rope until the last instant, and then you can use all the available time to pull in slack.

Jay


billl7


Dec 13, 2009, 10:13 AM
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Re: [jcrew] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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jcrew wrote:
edit: judging from the combative tone of the belayer's posts, especially rule #2 on the list of lessons, i wonder how these people ever come to rope up together in the first place? do they meet online?
Oh boy. My gut reaction on that one was of an "indirect" accident victim searching hard to make sense of it all without a lot of experience / knowledge. Same for continuing assertion that it was valuable to hold back the slack with the guide hand.

Of coursre, if a climbing pair gets to the point of the belayer hog tieing the leader - that partnership was completely broken even before anyone left the ground. <- that already said in other ways by JT, SoCal, yourself, etc..

I like the fluidity you described between regular belay mode, deck-saving belay mode, and spotter mode. I'll add to that "observer mode" as an extreme possibility.

Bill L


(This post was edited by billl7 on Dec 13, 2009, 10:21 AM)


notapplicable


Dec 13, 2009, 10:36 AM
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billl7 wrote:
jcrew wrote:
edit: judging from the combative tone of the belayer's posts, especially rule #2 on the list of lessons, i wonder how these people ever come to rope up together in the first place? do they meet online?
Oh boy. My gut reaction on that one was of an "indirect" accident victim searching hard to make sense of it all without a lot of experience / knowledge. Same for continuing assertion that it was valuable to hold back the slack with the guide hand.

Of coursre, if a climbing pair gets to the point of the belayer hog tieing the leader - that partnership was completely broken even before anyone left the ground. <- that already said in other ways by JT, SoCal, yourself, etc..

I like the fluidity you described between regular belay mode, deck-saving belay mode, and spotter mode. I'll add to that "observer mode" as an extreme possibility.

Bill L

The climber/belyer dynamic in this instance does seem to be a bit "off". Part of the problem may be that a lot of folks just don't fully understand the role of the belayer.

I think the rather nuanced art of belaying doesn't receive nearly enough focus or respect during the first few years of most peoples climbing careers. It's treated as a nuisance and approached rather mechanically. I don't know what can be done to change that though. Unfortunately.


notapplicable


Dec 13, 2009, 10:47 AM
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jt512 wrote:
This implies that you must not belay with the rope locked off in the first place, like you were most likely taught—you can't pull rope in fast enough from a locked off position.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. That is one of those tricks of the trade that you actually convinced me employ some time back. I was never a diehard "gotta lock off at all times" kind of guy but I wasn't initially open to belaying in such a fashion during those critical moments. I still default to a relaxed lockoff most times but if I anticipate a need to yard in slack, I bring my hands much closer together in preparation.

Thanks.


jcrew


Dec 13, 2009, 10:51 AM
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notapplicable wrote:
I think the rather nuanced art of belaying doesn't receive nearly enough focus or respect during the first few years of most peoples climbing careers. It's treated as a nuisance and approached rather mechanically. I don't know what can be done to change that though. Unfortunately.

i think we all agree on that. i like to have belayers who are really lead hogs at heart. they "know how it is" to be "out there." i have less confidence in belayers that don't actively, regularly lead .


jt512


Dec 13, 2009, 10:53 AM
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notapplicable wrote:
jt512 wrote:
This implies that you must not belay with the rope locked off in the first place, like you were most likely taught—you can't pull rope in fast enough from a locked off position.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. That is one of those tricks of the trade that you actually convinced me employ some time back. I was never a diehard "gotta lock off at all times" kind of guy but I wasn't initially open to belaying in such a fashion during those critical moments. I still default to a relaxed lockoff most times but if I anticipate a need to yard in slack, I bring my hands much closer together in preparation.

Thanks.

You're welcome. In a decade of arguing for this on the internet, you might be the only person I've convinced. Fortunately, my success rate among climbers I've talked to in person is greater.

Jay


billl7


Dec 13, 2009, 11:02 AM
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jt512 wrote:
In a decade of arguing for this on the internet, you might be the only person I've convinced. Fortunately, my success rate among climbers I've talked to in person is greater.

Jay or anyone else in this camp: What do you do with the person totally new to climbing in this regard? Do you teach from the outset that the default should be the "neutral" position? No need to go into great detail. Sorry if I missed this in some earlier thread.

My background is moderate traditional climbing in a teaching community of climbers that advocates being locked off as the default. But I am not a religious person.

Bill L

Edit: By "what do you teach about the default position" I mean starting from the very first day.


(This post was edited by billl7 on Dec 13, 2009, 11:05 AM)


jcrew


Dec 13, 2009, 11:05 AM
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Re: [jcrew] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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i think the leader in the OP was anxious about being run-out, maybe partly due to the lack of support from his "partner", and became too fixated on clipping the second bolt.we've all been there, scared and just wanting to clip. there has got to be a decent clipping stance, especially if the route was done ground up; yeah, no?

real lessons learned might have been: a) go higher to a stance and/or waist clip, or b) just GRAB THE FUCKING DRAW if you're feeling the slightest bit sketch about pulling rope. style is an afterthought if you're going to get hurt.

edit:grammar


(This post was edited by jcrew on Dec 13, 2009, 11:07 AM)


jt512


Dec 13, 2009, 11:21 AM
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Re: [billl7] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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billl7 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
In a decade of arguing for this on the internet, you might be the only person I've convinced. Fortunately, my success rate among climbers I've talked to in person is greater.

Jay or anyone else in this camp: What do you do with the person totally new to climbing in this regard? Do you teach from the outset that the default should be the "neutral" position?

Yep. Palms-up, neutral position from Day 1. Practice with someone on the ground simulating climbing for as long as it takes for the belayer to get it wired. Then the belayer needs to demonstrate competency by catching several announced lead falls, followed by several unannounced lead falls. Unlike a lot of opinions I've read on this forum, I don't let someone belay me until I am actually confident that they will catch me if I fall.

Jay

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