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Accident on Mt. Lemmon
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markc


Dec 17, 2009, 12:00 PM
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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blueeyedclimber wrote:
As for the op, belaying aside, I hope that she now realizes that she has the right to refuse a belay if she feels that her experience is not up to par. So called "experieced" climbers do not necessarily have the judgement that you might expect.

Something that's been discussed is that the most dangerous time in someone's climbing development may be between 2 - 4 years. The person knows enough to gain confidence and climb independently, but isn't seasoned. (Of course, that's a large generalization with a very flexible timeframe.)

For a new climber, 'experienced' is relative, and almost everyone is more experienced than you are. When I started climbing, the guys I went with generally had their wits about them. If they hadn't, I might not have had the wherewithal to realize it initially.


troutboy


Dec 17, 2009, 12:02 PM
Post #127 of 144 (2348 views)
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Re: [jt512] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
I think that the proportion of routes where the first piece cannot be multidirectional is one of the classic exaggerations of rockclimbing.com. Jay

Interesting observation. My conclusions also, but then my data set is greatly skewed from climbing at the Gunks where horizontals are king. I've often wondered whether I just forgot about the times I needed to do something special for multidirectional pieces or whether finding the multidirectional first piece really is not much of an issue. Maybe it's an experience thing - the longer you climb the easier it might be to spot the multidirectional placement and use it over a more obvious, unidirectional placement.

TS


blueeyedclimber


Dec 17, 2009, 12:30 PM
Post #128 of 144 (2336 views)
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Re: [jt512] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:

In reply to:
As for multi-directional pieces as a first piece, sometimes that's just not possible and belayer position becomes extremely important in this regard. It might be nice to have a bolt or a nice horizontal crack 15 feet up every time, but that's not always going to happen.

I think that the proportion of routes where the first piece cannot be multidirectional is one of the classic exaggerations of rockclimbing.com. I can count on one hand the number of times I've had to slot an unopposed nut for my first piece, but I quickly run out of fingers and toes trying to count the times that I've seen other climbers do it when they could have either opposed the nut or placed a cam (and, yes, a cam in a vertical crack is usually good enough for this purpose).

Jay

And I've done it only a handful of times as well. I was neither trying to espouse a random proportion of times it happens nor exaggerating it's existence. I was merely saying that it does happen. Out of those times that I have slotted a nut (btw a nut CAN be multidirectional), it was usually to protect one move or sequence and then I was looking for a multidirectional SECOND piece.


jt512


Dec 17, 2009, 1:34 PM
Post #129 of 144 (2322 views)
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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blueeyedclimber wrote:
btw a nut CAN be multidirectional

Was that supposed to be for my edification?

Jay


dugl33


Dec 17, 2009, 2:00 PM
Post #130 of 144 (2308 views)
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Re: [robdotcalm] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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I think many accidents / epics are the result of a series of missteps or less than ideal choices. I've been able to trace this with the f ups of others and my own epics as well.

In this case...

step 0. leader misjudges risk, own abilities, or both
step 1. leader skips the intermediate pro
step 2. leader runs-it out all the way to the next bolt
step 3. leader takes an armload of slack to clip (apparently with a less than great stance)
step 4. leader blows the clip with slack out!

Jab, jab, knock-out punch. The leader blew the clip, and this simply wasn't an option given the run out and the skipped pro opportunity.

Any contribution to the f up from the belayer in this case is secondary and hard to prove with what's known, yet this has been the primary focus of the thread. The leader pushed into a don't f-up situation, and then proceeded to do exactly that.


blueeyedclimber


Dec 17, 2009, 2:41 PM
Post #131 of 144 (2294 views)
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Re: [jt512] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
btw a nut CAN be multidirectional

Was that supposed to be for my edification?

Jay

That depends. Did you learn anything?


jt512


Dec 17, 2009, 3:03 PM
Post #132 of 144 (2285 views)
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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blueeyedclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
btw a nut CAN be multidirectional

Was that supposed to be for my edification?

Jay

That depends. Did you learn anything?

No.


blueeyedclimber


Dec 17, 2009, 3:09 PM
Post #133 of 144 (2281 views)
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Re: [jt512] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
btw a nut CAN be multidirectional

Was that supposed to be for my edification?

Jay

That depends. Did you learn anything?

No.

Other than being upset that you think I may have been inferring that you might not know something, do you have any problem with anything else that I said? This incessant nitpicking is getting old.

Josh


jt512


Dec 17, 2009, 3:12 PM
Post #134 of 144 (2277 views)
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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blueeyedclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
btw a nut CAN be multidirectional

Was that supposed to be for my edification?

Jay

That depends. Did you learn anything?

No.

Other than being upset that you think I may have been inferring that you might not know something, do you have any problem with anything else that I said? This incessant nitpicking is getting old.

Josh

Show me where I nitpicked.

Jay


blueeyedclimber


Dec 17, 2009, 3:16 PM
Post #135 of 144 (2275 views)
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Re: [jt512] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
btw a nut CAN be multidirectional

Was that supposed to be for my edification?

Jay

That depends. Did you learn anything?

No.

Other than being upset that you think I may have been inferring that you might not know something, do you have any problem with anything else that I said? This incessant nitpicking is getting old.

Josh

Show me where I nitpicked.

Jay

You pick out parts of posts that you feel you can make a negative comment on and leave the rest out. I was merely commenting that nuts can be multi-directional because many people don't know that. You took it personally. Nitpick.


jt512


Dec 17, 2009, 3:21 PM
Post #136 of 144 (2268 views)
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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blueeyedclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
btw a nut CAN be multidirectional

Was that supposed to be for my edification?

Jay

That depends. Did you learn anything?

No.

Other than being upset that you think I may have been inferring that you might not know something, do you have any problem with anything else that I said? This incessant nitpicking is getting old.

Josh

Show me where I nitpicked.

Jay

You pick out parts of posts that you feel you can make a negative comment on and leave the rest out. I was merely commenting that nuts can be multi-directional because many people don't know that. You took it personally. Nitpick.

Well, I could correct your definition of nitpicking, but I guess that would be nitpicking.

Jay


blueeyedclimber


Dec 17, 2009, 3:26 PM
Post #137 of 144 (2259 views)
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Re: [jt512] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
btw a nut CAN be multidirectional

Was that supposed to be for my edification?

Jay

That depends. Did you learn anything?

No.

Other than being upset that you think I may have been inferring that you might not know something, do you have any problem with anything else that I said? This incessant nitpicking is getting old.

Josh

Show me where I nitpicked.

Jay

You pick out parts of posts that you feel you can make a negative comment on and leave the rest out. I was merely commenting that nuts can be multi-directional because many people don't know that. You took it personally. Nitpick.

Well, I could correct your definition of nitpicking, but I guess that would be nitpicking.

Jay

Yes, I guess it would be. Having had a child who actually had nits this Fall maybe I should be more familiar with the definition. What word would you have used for someone who loves to pick out things and make negative comments just for the sake of it?
Tongue
Cool


jt512


Dec 17, 2009, 3:30 PM
Post #138 of 144 (2254 views)
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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blueeyedclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
btw a nut CAN be multidirectional

Was that supposed to be for my edification?

Jay

That depends. Did you learn anything?

No.

Other than being upset that you think I may have been inferring that you might not know something, do you have any problem with anything else that I said? This incessant nitpicking is getting old.

Josh

Show me where I nitpicked.

Jay

You pick out parts of posts that you feel you can make a negative comment on and leave the rest out. I was merely commenting that nuts can be multi-directional because many people don't know that. You took it personally. Nitpick.

Well, I could correct your definition of nitpicking, but I guess that would be nitpicking.

Jay

Yes, I guess it would be. Having had a child who actually had nits this Fall maybe I should be more familiar with the definition. What word would you have used for someone who loves to pick out things and make negative comments just for the sake of it?
Tongue
Cool

I didn't make any negative comments. I just asked if your comment was intended specifically for me.

Jay


blueeyedclimber


Dec 17, 2009, 3:31 PM
Post #139 of 144 (2251 views)
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Re: [jt512] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
btw a nut CAN be multidirectional

Was that supposed to be for my edification?

Jay

That depends. Did you learn anything?

No.

Other than being upset that you think I may have been inferring that you might not know something, do you have any problem with anything else that I said? This incessant nitpicking is getting old.

Josh

Show me where I nitpicked.

Jay

You pick out parts of posts that you feel you can make a negative comment on and leave the rest out. I was merely commenting that nuts can be multi-directional because many people don't know that. You took it personally. Nitpick.

Well, I could correct your definition of nitpicking, but I guess that would be nitpicking.

Jay

Yes, I guess it would be. Having had a child who actually had nits this Fall maybe I should be more familiar with the definition. What word would you have used for someone who loves to pick out things and make negative comments just for the sake of it?
Tongue
Cool

I didn't make any negative comments. I just asked if your comment was intended specifically for me.

Jay

No, it wasn't. I guess we're done here.


boymeetsrock


Dec 17, 2009, 5:16 PM
Post #140 of 144 (2223 views)
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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blueeyedclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
btw a nut CAN be multidirectional

Was that supposed to be for my edification?

Jay

That depends. Did you learn anything?

No.

Other than being upset that you think I may have been inferring that you might not know something, do you have any problem with anything else that I said? This incessant nitpicking is getting old.

Josh

Show me where I nitpicked.

Jay

You pick out parts of posts that you feel you can make a negative comment on and leave the rest out. I was merely commenting that nuts can be multi-directional because many people don't know that. You took it personally. Nitpick.

Well, I could correct your definition of nitpicking, but I guess that would be nitpicking.

Jay

Yes, I guess it would be. Having had a child who actually had nits this Fall maybe I should be more familiar with the definition. What word would you have used for someone who loves to pick out things and make negative comments just for the sake of it?
Tongue
Cool

I didn't make any negative comments. I just asked if your comment was intended specifically for me.

Jay

No, it wasn't. I guess we're done here.


*damn*

I though you had a chance there Josh. I was rooting for you!

If you want to call Jay out though, you have to simplify every statement down to its most basic point. Can't give that guy anything to work with! Laugh


zeke_sf


Dec 18, 2009, 4:26 AM
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Re: [boymeetsrock] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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boymeetsrock wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
btw a nut CAN be multidirectional

Was that supposed to be for my edification?

Jay

That depends. Did you learn anything?

No.

Other than being upset that you think I may have been inferring that you might not know something, do you have any problem with anything else that I said? This incessant nitpicking is getting old.

Josh

Show me where I nitpicked.

Jay

You pick out parts of posts that you feel you can make a negative comment on and leave the rest out. I was merely commenting that nuts can be multi-directional because many people don't know that. You took it personally. Nitpick.

Well, I could correct your definition of nitpicking, but I guess that would be nitpicking.

Jay

Yes, I guess it would be. Having had a child who actually had nits this Fall maybe I should be more familiar with the definition. What word would you have used for someone who loves to pick out things and make negative comments just for the sake of it?
Tongue
Cool

I didn't make any negative comments. I just asked if your comment was intended specifically for me.

Jay

No, it wasn't. I guess we're done here.


*damn*

I though you had a chance there Josh. I was rooting for you!

If you want to call Jay out though, you have to simplify every statement down to its most basic point. Can't give that guy anything to work with! Laugh

You ignorant bitch.

Hmmm... I believe that's the lean core of almost every JT512 post I've ever read. At least it's an ethos, I guess.


olderic


Dec 18, 2009, 8:25 AM
Post #142 of 144 (2170 views)
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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blueeyedclimber wrote:
Yes, I guess it would be. Having had a child who actually had nits this Fall maybe I should be more familiar with the definition. What word would you have used for someone who loves to pick out things and make negative comments just for the sake of it?

That's easy. The "word" would be JT512. In fact nit-picking seems to be his only skill.


boymeetsrock


Dec 18, 2009, 8:48 AM
Post #143 of 144 (2164 views)
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Re: [zeke_sf] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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Heh. Say what you will about the man, Dude... At least he has an ethos. Unsure


blueeyedclimber


Dec 18, 2009, 4:11 PM
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Re: [olderic] Accident on Mt. Lemmon [In reply to]
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olderic wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
Yes, I guess it would be. Having had a child who actually had nits this Fall maybe I should be more familiar with the definition. What word would you have used for someone who loves to pick out things and make negative comments just for the sake of it?

That's easy. The "word" would be JT512. In fact nit-picking seems to be his only skill.

Now, Eric, I think we already determined that Jay doesn't nit pick. I mean when you take out nits, you want to get EVERY last one. Jay only picks out certain nits. You know, the ones who can't spell, misuse words, or don't agree with him.

Angelic

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