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suprasoup


Dec 12, 2009, 12:30 PM
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Re: [dan2see] The laws of climbing [In reply to]
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dan2see wrote:
petsfed wrote:
stagg54 wrote:
And let's all sit around the campfire and sing kumbaya while we pass around a joint.
You're parents must have been dirty hippies.

Actually, I think dan2see is a dirty hippie. Was probably 15 or 16 in 1968.

Shocked How did you know? Laugh

Actually, in 1968, I had already completed 5 years in the Canadian Air Force. I'm much too hippy to join the Navy Blush.

In 1968, I was riding my third motorcycle, a Triumph Bonneville 650. I was dating my wife. We rode around the small towns of Southern Ontario.
We'd dress in bell-bottom pants (not jeans) and spangles, and cruise Yorkville Village, and groove on live folk and espresso.

A couple of years later, we proceeded to adopt our boy, and then our girl, who were both accidents of college free-love. They're in their mid-thirties now. He sky-dives for fun, and she drives a train for pay.

But Mad I don't smoke anything, and I hate that kumbaya stuff!

(Edit to add "groove" and "Air Force")

You, Sir, are a BadassLaugh


dan2see


Dec 12, 2009, 12:35 PM
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Re: [suprasoup] The laws of climbing [In reply to]
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suprasoup wrote:
...
You, Sir, are a BadassLaugh

Badass is hereditary. You get it from your children.

But I love to climb. They got it from me.


(This post was edited by dan2see on Dec 12, 2009, 12:36 PM)


suprasoup


Dec 12, 2009, 12:39 PM
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Re: [dan2see] The laws of climbing [In reply to]
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dan2see wrote:
suprasoup wrote:
...
You, Sir, are a BadassLaugh

Badass is hereditary. You get it from your children.

But I love to climb. They got it from me.

+1


the_leech


Dec 12, 2009, 12:46 PM
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Re: [USnavy] The laws of climbing [In reply to]
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USnavy wrote:
From a sport climbers perspective...



1. Climbing is done on lead.

- Last night you asked if I wanted to go CLIMBING tomorrow. Climbing is done on lead; top rope is for training and noobs. Today you were pissing your pants three feet above a ĹĒ bolt on a 5.8. Grow some balls and get some mileage on lead. I am tired of always belaying you on TR. STOP FOLLOWING, START LEADING. Itís one thing to be scared 15 feet above the last bolt over 5.12 moves but to be top roping 5.11 and hanging 5.8 is pitiful. Next time get your shit together and get on lead. If you need more practice I will work with you but top roping is not going to do shit for you.

2. Show up all the time, show up on time.

- Today I was sitting in my car at high noon at the crag and I got a call from you, ďumm I uhha lost my cell in my umma the uhha grass so I canít umm climb todayĒ. YOUíRE FIRED! Show up ON TIME ALL THE TIME. You have held down a job before right? Obviously you are capable of being at an assigned place at an assigned time; itís not that damn hard. The next time you stand me up I am deleting you from my phone and I am telling everyone at the crag how much of a shit bag you are.

3. Stop short roping me!

- You think ďoh shit he is climbing a hard line I better keep him tight because he might fallĒ. Instead you should be thinking ďhe is definitely going to fall because I am pulling him off the damn wallĒ. There is plenty of distance between me and the ground, give me some damn slack. The next time you pull me off the wall I am throwing a quickdraw at you.

4. Keep the appropriate amount of slack in the rope all the time.

- My foot didnít pass the last bolt but I stopped 20 feet down. How the hell did that happenÖ? Belaying is not done with a loop of rope coiled on the ground between me and you. Wake the hell up, apart from a 15 foot dyno there is no way in hell I would ever need that much rope instantly. Two feet of slack in the line is appropriate. Itís not hard to keep only two feet out without short roping the climber. If a bit more is needed for a dynamic move, so be it, but if the rope touches the ground YOUíRE FIRED.

5. Provide a dynamic belay when appropriate.

- The next time I take a seven foot fall and I question whether I accidently grabbed the static rope out of the closet this morning, YOUíRE FIRED. Static catches rips gear and breaks ankles. I am 50 feet off the ground I am not going to hit the ground so JUMP! I am tired to saying ďhey man please remember to jump the next time I fall so I donít swing into the wallĒ. Learn how to fucking belay, dynamic belays are a crucial part of lead belaying and they are not hard to perform. If you donít know how to do it ASK!

6. Stand up and pay attention!

- How the hell are you going to provide a static, dynamic or running belay if youíre sitting on your ass day dreaming about the 5.8 youíre going to hang on next? How are you going to react to a lead fall appropriate if youíre flirting with the dude five lines down? The next time I am ten feet above the last bolt and I look down and see you playing with a Gecko on the rock, YOUíRE FIRED.

7. When you climb with me you climb with ME.

- Last night you asked if I wanted to go climbing tomorrow. Today you show up with a different partner. ďOh, sorry I figured you already had a partnerĒ. Why the hell would I call you and ask if you want to go climbing tomorrow if I had no intention of climbing with you?! If I meant in a group, donít you think I would have specified? Group climbing is cool but not when youíre the only one in the group without a partner because your partner blew you off for someone else... If you want to climb in a group SPECIFY so I can call someone else to bring so itís actually a group.

8. Shut up beta master.

- If I want to hear someone spray beta about a route eight grades above their top rope limit I will go to the gym. Your useless ďjust dyno for itĒ beta is fucking with my concentration. Actually, why donít you try this 5.13. You seem to know everything about it, I would like to see you onsight it. Just donít cry when you find out you donít know a thing about it. If I ask for beta, by all means. But when you see someone on a route they have wired going for the redpoint STFU!

9. Stop with the negative attitude.

- ďOh, I suck; I will never be able to lead 5.12Ē. Yes you do suck; no you wonít ever be able to lead 5.12. Know why? Because instead of actually working on your goal you just spray your self-remorse pitiful attitude around. Itís fucking depressing man. Actually put some real time and effort into your goal and you will get it.

10. The crag is not a petting zoo.

- I am tired of looking down to find a dog coiled up in my rope. Keep your damn pets at home if they canít behave themselves. Your little friend is endangering my life because itís trying to fuck my belayerís leg. Oh and the next time I have to replace my rope because youíre dog pissed on it, I am taking yoursÖ

11. Keep your hand on the damn rope!

- I donít give a shit if youíre using a GriGri or not, your hand will be on the rope at all times. A GriGri can slip, itís not unheard of. The next time I am ten feet above the last bolt and look down to find your hands on your head, YOUíRE FIRED!

12. This is not a talk show, this is climbing.

- I came here to climb, not to hear your life story. Some talking in-between climbs is cool but when I am pulling the crux I donít want about how much you hate your job. Save that shit for the pizza parlor at the end of the day. Actually save it for someone else.

Just when I thought USnooby couldn't make himself look any more like an idiot, I see this post.

Nice work, douchebag!


johnwesely


Dec 12, 2009, 1:14 PM
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rockforlife wrote:

I put no climber above another, and i don;t mind some people being a little cocky. but you have to be more good then cocky, not more cocky then good, as in your case.

That is foolish. Climbers are always either above or below each other. That is the whole point of climbing. Otherwise we would traverse all day and be satisfied.


jt512


Dec 12, 2009, 2:01 PM
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Re: [rockforlife] The laws of climbing [In reply to]
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rockforlife wrote:
USnavy wrote:
potreroed wrote:

Top roping is a perfectly legitimate form of climbing, as long as you are honest about what you did and didn't do.
I can agree with that. Like I said, TR is good for training regardless if thats learning how to climb or working the moves out on a 5.13 5.15 you want to bolt.

you are such a moron, why just because you climb at grade 5.xx is it that every one who climbs at a lower grade than you is a wuss.

Actually, the grade he climbs at is 5.(XĖ2), where X is the grade of the "project" he's supposedly "working."

Jay


camhead


Dec 12, 2009, 3:30 PM
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Re: [dugl33] The laws of climbing [In reply to]
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dugl33 wrote:
This said, the only "rule" in climbing is gravity. Everything else is a guideline.

No, gravity is not a law. it's only a theory. like evolution.


avalon420


Dec 12, 2009, 5:10 PM
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Re: [stagg54] The laws of climbing [In reply to]
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stagg54 wrote:
dan2see wrote:
All of your 12 rules require a reasonable standard of performance, and you've explained them, so it's pretty easy to see whether your partner can conform, or not.

I can see how a military person would judge this list as cool. And it's good -- we need people like you, in our civilization, for positive strength and integrity.

But what bothers me is that ALL your rules are performance-based. Where is the people value? Where is the personal value? Where is the fun?

So we should all recognize how "different strokes for different strokes" is a type of rule that supersedes your list. That is, every climber has his own play style, and his own leadership style.

I wouldn't hesitate to meet you on the rocks, But those rules automatically bar me (and a lot of my friends) so I'd only say "Hi!" and then wave "Bye" as you disappear up the crag.

But to focus on performance? Not for me. There's too much fun in my life is for that!

So, USnavy, here's how to fix your list:
1. Focus on values, especially the values that you get from this sport.
2. Think of ways to build those values.
3. Let your friends know how to help you get it.

There's no value to gain by judging your friends. You can weed out a lot of riff-raff, but you still can't make anybody conform to standard. Allow folks to do what they do, and figure out how to take advantage of what they offer you. And they will!

And let's all sit around the campfire and sing kumbaya while we pass around a joint.

You're parents must have been dirty hippies.
We don't sing kumbaya (that would be too capitalist christian), we beat the bongos whilst passing our doobers, THANK YOU. And secondly, if i ever climb w/ Navyswab im totally short roping his arss and tying off the belay (only to collect 2 biners for my new cams and the free fire starter they are attached to) then go beat my droms and pass the doob. Oh yeah, I'll leave him enough slack to get down(if his sport climbin arss can figure out a few rope tricksSly)


blueeyedclimber


Dec 13, 2009, 8:00 AM
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Re: [USnavy] The laws of climbing [In reply to]
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You must be a joy to climb with.

Although, most of what you said I agree with, it seems that the only people who want to climb with you are n00bs who don't know any better. I wonder why that is.

Josh


ClimbClimb


Dec 13, 2009, 9:57 AM
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Re: [USnavy] The laws of climbing [In reply to]
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Good stuff. One can argue with the tone, as some have, but no one can argue with 1. showing up on time / not blowing off partners at the last minute 2. paying attention when belaying.


jt512


Dec 13, 2009, 10:06 AM
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Re: [ClimbClimb] The laws of climbing [In reply to]
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ClimbClimb wrote:
Good stuff. One can argue with the tone, as some have, but no one can argue with 1.

No one can argue with #1? That's an odd statement. #1 is the only one that is pure bullshit.

Jay


ClimbClimb


Dec 13, 2009, 10:09 AM
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Re: [jt512] The laws of climbing [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
ClimbClimb wrote:
Good stuff. One can argue with the tone, as some have, but no one can argue with 1.
No one can argue with #1? That's an odd statement. #1 is the only one that is pure bullshit.

I didn't mean USN's #1 and #2, those were my own -- confusing in retrospect. I don't agree with his #1, necessarily, either.


USnavy


Dec 13, 2009, 10:10 PM
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Re: [dugl33] The laws of climbing [In reply to]
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dugl33 wrote:
but isn't Hawaii pretty much the red-headed step child of climbing? You know, Nebraski, Ohio, Hawaii... are you so in a twist because you are stuck on what is actually a fairly small island, the paradise aspect has lost its luster, and now itís just a hot, humid, touron packed cruise-ship you're floating on?
Yes, to some degree. We have climbing and the climbing we do have is actually fairly good. However we only have about 100 routes and its difficult to establish new lines due to a nice cost of about $200 a line.

However itís not as much the climbing that is the issue. There are plenty of people who climb here but most are not very committed and just climb on a light recreational basis. Our climbing community is rater small with only about 20 climbers who could be considered "dedicated" to the sport. Accordingly itís a difficult place to climb for someone who really loves the sport and is highly motivated. So the main issue is finding equally motivated, safe and reliable partners. The only time I generally get all three of those things is when someone comes to visit from the mainland who is a dedicated climber back home.

So in the end itís not an issue of how skilled any of my partners are on the rock, itís an issue of safety, reliability, and motivation. The only things I really care about on that list are those that reflect such. I donít think itís an issue with their reliability as a whole, I think itís an issue of motivation. When we talk to our partners the night before they get all hyped up to climb the next day but when the alarm rings in the morning they say, ďfuck it, why get up when I can sleep?Ē. Or maybe I am wrong and they are simply completely unreliable in all aspects, I donít know. Those who do show up can be considered partly reliably but many of those are unmotivated or lazy. Others are simply unsafe.

But this is nothing new; every crag has these issues to some extent. But what sets those crags apart from mine is that climbers at other crags can simply choose a different more reliable and more motivated partner. Such is not the case here and I am stuck climbing with less motivated, unsafe and/ or unreliable partners fairly often.

So do I really feel the way I wrote my original post? Not really. I am neither aggressive nor violent. I donít yell at my partner if they do any of the things on my list, I respectfully bring the issue up. I intentionally wrote it in a malicious and aggressive manner as that was kind of necessary to keep the tone I wanted. The only things I do really care about are safety, reliability and continuing motivation.


(This post was edited by USnavy on Dec 14, 2009, 8:36 PM)


blueeyedclimber


Dec 14, 2009, 7:41 AM
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That's perhaps one of the better posts you have written. Now, hop on a boat and move to California.Tongue


jcrew


Dec 14, 2009, 7:51 AM
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] The laws of climbing [In reply to]
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climbing in hawaii sounds like trying to be a hard-core surfer in phoneix.

blueeyedclimber wrote:
Now, hop on a boat and move to California.Tongue

ummm.....the climbing is not very good in cali.....i heard duluth is the new power base.


blueeyedclimber


Dec 14, 2009, 9:03 AM
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jcrew wrote:
climbing in hawaii sounds like trying to be a hard-core surfer in phoneix.

blueeyedclimber wrote:
Now, hop on a boat and move to California.Tongue

ummm.....the climbing is not very good in cali.....i heard duluth is the new power base.

heh heh.
oh yeah, I forgot. My bad. Tongue


dan2see


Dec 14, 2009, 9:05 AM
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USnavy wrote:
... The only things I do really care about are safety, reliability and continuing motivation.

Agreed!

In my post to your thread, I set myself up as a dirty old hippy. Which might be true. I really am a peacenik. I groove on Nature, and laugh at people's mistakes.

But in fact, when I think about myself, I also think about safety and reliability. I tell my friends how I feel about my teamwork skills, and listen to their advice.

I don't talk about motivation, though -- I work hard to show up. My problem here is simply "I hate mornings" so the challenge is to work through it. Once we're on the rocks, I cheer up and shape up.

So whoever is belaying me, I figure if you still have one hand on the brake strand, I'll stop worrying and learn to love the climb. Or if you forget to put a locker on your anchor, I'll quietly swap my own when I get there.

It's a different measure of performance. My first priority is to make it back home for dinner. My second priority is to have fun. As for skills and knowledge, well that's progressive, it comes with experience. I always succeed.

One more thing: Sometimes my friends don't show up. But in the mountains, "Plan B" is always possible. I love hiking too, and solo scrambles are great for adventure and serenity. In fact scrambles take me beyond climbing, for fun, and learning, and skills. Like I wrote above, I always succeed.


(This post was edited by dan2see on Dec 14, 2009, 9:12 AM)


camhead


Dec 14, 2009, 9:18 AM
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I will say that, as obnoxious as USNavy can be, he has a point in complaining about climbing with poor attitudes. I had a partner a few years ago who was a total Eeyore. Every climb he did, he complained about. Never once didI hear him say, "wow, I enjoyed this climb!" or "Wow, my gear was really good there"

It was always "shit, bad situation here!" "If this piece blows, the whole team is talus food!" "This climb is terrible!"

I try to keep a good attitude; there is no point bitching about stuff. When times are good, enjoy it, if the situation calls for caution, then be cautious, but don't fucking complain. But eventually this guy's attitude wore on me. We wound up bailing on a wall because he was complaining, dragging, and sleeping in so much. I always wanted to ask him why he even climbed, but I never did.

End of rant.


ClimbClimb


Dec 14, 2009, 10:45 AM
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USnavy wrote:
There are plenty of people who climb here but most are not very committed and just climb on a light recreational basis. ...

So in the end itís not an issue of how skilled any of my partners are on the rock, itís an issue of safety, reliability, and motivation. .


Basically, it sounds like people in Hawaii are laid-back, true to stereotype. ;-)

Good post.


jcrew


Dec 14, 2009, 12:21 PM
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USnavy wrote:
only about 20 climbers who could be considered "dedicated" to the sport.

those "dedicated to the sport" move to boulder. dedicated surfers move to hawaii. you're trying to shove a square peg into a round hole.

this may be one of your problems:
In reply to:
when the alarm rings in the morning they say, .


the only time i ever use an alarm in the same reference as climbing is when i'm going for an "alpine" start. otherwise, we gotta have at least 5 cups of coffee and wait for the temps. oh, that brings me to another rule of climbing: if you're on rock beore 12:00, you're not a serious sport climber.


(This post was edited by jcrew on Dec 14, 2009, 12:23 PM)


mtnjohn


Dec 14, 2009, 12:22 PM
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laws of climbing?
What is wrong with you?
your belayer must've dropped you on your head!
there are no laws, rules or parameters to climbing
Only a sport climber would try to institute a collection of rules to an expression of individual freedom.


dugl33


Dec 14, 2009, 3:33 PM
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mtnjohn wrote:
Only a sport climber would try to institute a collection of rules to an expression of individual freedom.

Did you miss entirely the style and ethics wars of the 70s, 80s, and 90s?

Sport climbing, almost by mere definition and certainly by connotation, broke all of the rules of the ground up, bolt-on-lead, no falls, clean pro, run-it-out till you shit your pants trad etho of the previous generations.


dingus


Dec 14, 2009, 4:38 PM
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mtnjohn wrote:
Only a sport climber would try to institute a collection of rules to an expression of individual freedom.

New to this site I take it????

DMT


dingus


Dec 14, 2009, 4:39 PM
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dugl33 wrote:
mtnjohn wrote:
Only a sport climber would try to institute a collection of rules to an expression of individual freedom.

Did you miss entirely the style and ethics wars of the 70s, 80s, and 90s?

Sport climbing, almost by mere definition and certainly by connotation, broke all of the rules of the ground up, bolt-on-lead, no falls, clean pro, run-it-out till you shit your pants trad etho of the previous generations.

Actually it was the SAME generation. but carry on!

DMT


mtnjohn


Dec 14, 2009, 5:23 PM
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True enough and yet it is a sport climber who has posted "The laws of climbing"

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