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adatesman
Feb 24, 2010, 5:21 PM
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rock_fencer
Feb 24, 2010, 5:30 PM
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might i suggest everyone who sends in a submission throw in a few bucks and winner takes the pot?
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coolcat83
Feb 24, 2010, 6:17 PM
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i'd go in on that, if i can get my entry in on time.
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rschap
Feb 24, 2010, 8:13 PM
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This is in no way directed at you Aric or DDT but that’s f-ing lame. I’m all about bragging rights and would have been fine with that if it wasn’t for the string along. From what I understand this comp brings a lot of traffic to this site and they make more money so if this is how is going to be I’m out. I’m not going to spend the time and money to do something that helps improve the site if the powers that be can’t get off their asses and take care of business. Aric I can appreciate what you are up against and what you have tried to do, and thank you for trying to keep this going. Good luck to everyone that does compete.
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coolcat83
Feb 24, 2010, 9:22 PM
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you are right, i didn't think of it that way, i know last year I and many others checked the site multiples times per day just because of the comp. That would up ad revenue.
(This post was edited by coolcat83 on Feb 24, 2010, 9:23 PM)
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jeremy11
Feb 26, 2010, 8:54 AM
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hmmm... with all the time and money put into mine, with no prize, maybe I'll just keep it and climb on it?
It would be hard to send this baby in for destruction without any hope of prizes.
Maybe I'll give it a quick proof test pull to make sure it doesn't disintegrate. However, I am very curious what it breaks at....
the proof of concept cam pulled out when the rock broke somewhere between 14-16 kN dynamic pull (loop of 7mm cord pulled by jeep on snow with 2:1 pulley and a redirect) , then when placed in a constriction we were able to break the 7mm loop. the cable was mangled and the lobes bent, but nothing actually broke.
The axle was undamaged........ 
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olympicmtnboy
Feb 26, 2010, 10:12 AM
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It's too bad, I loved the competition last year from the sidelines! I understand if folks don't want to do it under the current conditions though.
Any of you guys who decide not to send things, post up some pics of your projects at least! We'll still give you kudos!
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cracklover
Feb 26, 2010, 10:54 AM
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olympicmtnboy wrote: It's too bad, I loved the competition last year from the sidelines! I understand if folks don't want to do it under the current conditions though. Any of you guys who decide not to send things, post up some pics of your projects at least! We'll still give you kudos!
+1
GO
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majid_sabet
Feb 26, 2010, 10:56 AM
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just give me $25.000 and I will give you my two new cam design secrets.
$25 K is cheap and you know it cause I have no time to go after patenting it but once I do, I will make you guys cry.
Those who know me , they know what I can do so save my time and send a check and do it now.
This offer expires in summer and after that, well
you will see
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kennoyce
Feb 27, 2010, 10:47 AM
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That kind of sucks, but I think I will still complete my cam and send it in just so that I can test a new method for attaching the stem to the axel. I am interested in it's strength so I'm not out anything by submitting an entry.
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adatesman
Feb 27, 2010, 1:34 PM
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rschap
Feb 27, 2010, 8:46 PM
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olympicmtnboy wrote: It's too bad, I loved the competition last year from the sidelines! I understand if folks don't want to do it under the current conditions though. Any of you guys who decide not to send things, post up some pics of your projects at least! We'll still give you kudos!
I'm 90% finished with mine so I'm going to finish it. I’m still putting my pull tester together but I have all the components. I’ll finish it and shoot video of the pull test, won’t be as accurate as Arics but it should be close enough.
The search and rescue guys got a kick out of using the dino to test the forces on a 2:1, 3:1, etc in the gym last week.
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jeremy11
Mar 1, 2010, 8:19 AM
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DONE!
Part of the reasoning to avoid entering is since they aren't offering prizes, why should I let my baby get broken so they can make more money?
Keeping it to climb with will be better than most realistic prizes for this comp.
A free body diagram of a concept I thought through but didn't build. Please excuse any mathematical errors. I was at the very beginning of my Statics book back in the fall when I did this. Feel free to steal it....
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rschap
Mar 1, 2010, 5:30 PM
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I haven't finished mine yet but here are the lobes. I spent several hours on them so you can see why I'm pissed. Maybe they should start working on it now for next year since it seems to take them a long time to get anything done.
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Attachments:
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IMG_4294.JPG
(24.7 KB)
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jeremy11
Mar 1, 2010, 7:46 PM
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nice lobes! the machined cam stops are a nice touch.
lots of needle filing for me....
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boymeetsrock
Mar 2, 2010, 9:15 AM
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cracklover wrote: olympicmtnboy wrote: It's too bad, I loved the competition last year from the sidelines! I understand if folks don't want to do it under the current conditions though. Any of you guys who decide not to send things, post up some pics of your projects at least! We'll still give you kudos! +1 GO
+1
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jeremy11
Mar 4, 2010, 8:52 AM
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pull testing the rough cut proof of concept cam. the axle, my main concern due to its nontraditional material, ended up unmarred after mangling the cable (no broken strands though), bending the lobes, and breaking a loop of 7mm cord on it with a jeep and a 2:1 pulley. After breaking the 7mm loop, the jeep couldn't get enough traction on snow to continue.
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edge
Mar 9, 2010, 7:06 AM
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You should send that tree at the end in for testing. It didn't budge!
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kennoyce
Mar 20, 2010, 7:41 AM
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So, time is running out and I am in Red Rocks until the deadline to get the cam in. I brought stuff to finish my cam, but this morning I realized that I forgot my swaging tool, and I accidentally broke off a screw in the cam but have no tools to drill it out with. Basically I am going to be pushing it to get my cam in on time. If I can somehow get the screw drilled out today and maybe go buy and return a swaging tool, then I should be able to ship it monday to have it to you by wednesday.
If I can't get it done, I guess I'll have a good head start for next year .
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kennoyce
Mar 21, 2010, 8:57 PM
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Ok, so my cam is done except for the swage on the cable loop. My plan is to go to Lowes or Home Depot tomorrow so I can borrow a swaging tool to crimp it in the store then to send it in to Aric USPS Priority to get it there by Wednesday. Here is a preview of the cam:
Utah Custom Hardware Extraterrestrial
-External Cam Springs allow a much more compact camming unit. With this system, Extraterrestrials fit into smaller placements and have more cam surface area per width than other units.
-Nylon trigger wire protection sheath allows true flexibility of the main cable stem AND solid cam control. Cam walk and placement change are minimized. Deeper placements are possible, but don't place the stem over sharp edges or so that permanent bending or damage will occur when the unit is weighted.
-Secure grip and control. Easy clipping and racking are provided by the cable loop. Extraterrestrials come with a sewn nylon runner.
-Axles are a .25" grade 8 steel bolt. Also. the Internal Spring system allows the axle length to be minimized, which results in a short and virtually unbendable axle.
-Cams are machined from 6061-T6 Aluminum, a grippy alloy with TEETH.
-Moderate cam angle of 16 degrees for greater holding power.
-Sturdy steel handle and top puller are crimped to 1/16" 7x7 galvanized steel trigger wire. A tubular nylon sheath provides trigger wire protection. The sheath can be taped, but don't tape tightly or it will cause drag in the operation.
-Quality connections. The main cable is individually attached 24mm deep to the aluminum cable eye fitting with a newly developed "Bonzing" process. Aluminum cable fittings are used for the swaged connections.
-Quality control. There is none, and I mean absolutely none. If you would like, I will stamp "tested" on any unit that you would like.
-This cam is rated to 46 kN but my guess is that it will fail at around 6kN by mode of the cable pulling from the head.
Here are some pics
Picture 1
Picture 2
Picture 3
Picture 4
edit because my post doesn't seem to be working.
still not working and I can't figure out why
couldn't get the pics to work, so here are links.
(This post was edited by kennoyce on Mar 21, 2010, 9:16 PM)
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cracklover
Mar 22, 2010, 7:28 AM
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Hahahaha! That rocks!
GO
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jeremy11
Mar 22, 2010, 11:47 AM
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looks nice. are the springs on the axle at all or are they the visible springs a little higher up?
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kennoyce
Mar 24, 2010, 7:59 AM
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There are no springs on the axle, they are just the visible springs below the lobes. The action feels pretty smooth, but the wires that move the cam lobes are a little bit soft so I should use something stiffer in the future.
I ended up swaging the loop in the hardware isle of home depot, I just tracked it and it is at the post office in Aric's home town scheduled for delivery today, so I think it made it!
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adatesman
Mar 24, 2010, 8:17 AM
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kennoyce
Mar 24, 2010, 8:38 AM
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sweet, I won!!!!! I can't wait to collect my prize, oh wait, there is no prize this year. Well whatever, I still want to see how strong it ends up being.
I wanted to try out a new method for connecting the axle to the cable. I thought up a new way to bond the cable eye to the cable. I think my method should be fairly high strength so I am interested in finding out how strong it is. I am calling it "bonzing" since I bonded it using the principals of how brazing works.
Well anyway, thanks for your support Aric even if you didn't get any support from anyone else.
If we are going to be betting on strength this year, my vote is 6.3 kN by mode of the cable pulling out of the cable eye.
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soNVclimbing
Mar 26, 2010, 9:28 AM
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Adatesman,
I know I missed the deadline for this years comp. However I was wondering if you would still pull test my cam for me? I really want to compete next year and a test will let me know what is working and what is not. I really like the axle and the way it is put together minus the stem. I used SS tubing due to not having cable, swages or the know how to properly crimp them (force). This is something I will just need to learn, test and execute. It is not complete the trigger wires and springs will not be on it due to I don't want to disclose my setup. But as of now it is ready to be broken. I am willing to pay you for this I don't have much money but can trade, biners, chain, webbing, rope, pitons, whatever you need. Let me know.
Thanks,
Dustin
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johnwesely
Mar 26, 2010, 9:58 AM
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Alien killer.
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adatesman
Mar 26, 2010, 11:26 AM
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johnwesely
Mar 26, 2010, 11:37 AM
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adatesman wrote: johnwesely wrote: Alien killer. Huh? I think you vastly overestimate my abilities... The current scarcity of them is likely due to production having halted temporarily because of Dave's passing. Nadia has said they should be back on the shelves again sometime this Spring, and I seem to recall reading on ST the other day that a shipment had just arrived at the Mountain Shop in Yos.
I think you vastly overestimate my abilities to accuse you of something.
I was saying that cam that was entered in the contest was an Alien killer.
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adatesman
Mar 26, 2010, 11:42 AM
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johnwesely
Mar 26, 2010, 11:43 AM
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adatesman wrote: johnwesely wrote: adatesman wrote: johnwesely wrote: Alien killer. Huh? I think you vastly overestimate my abilities... The current scarcity of them is likely due to production having halted temporarily because of Dave's passing. Nadia has said they should be back on the shelves again sometime this Spring, and I seem to recall reading on ST the other day that a shipment had just arrived at the Mountain Shop in Yos. I think you vastly overestimate my abilities to accuse you of something. I was saying that cam that was entered in the contest was an Alien killer. Oops!  Sorry, I tend to get twitchy any time someone mentions Aliens. 
It is ok. Do you have trouble sleeping?
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johnwesely
Mar 26, 2010, 12:05 PM
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How narrow is your head in comparison to other cams?
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adatesman
Mar 26, 2010, 12:11 PM
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johnwesely
Mar 26, 2010, 12:22 PM
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adatesman wrote: johnwesely wrote: adatesman wrote: Oops! Sorry, I tend to get twitchy any time someone mentions Aliens. It is ok. Do you have trouble sleeping? That I do, that I do...  On a more serious note, Kennoyce isn't the only one who's been working on an Alien Killer... I've got one in the works too and it's looking quite promising (read: the prototypes work perfectly). I'm hoping to have final versions ready for beta testing and shopping around to gear companies mid-summer, but knowing how quickly I get things done it'll probably be summer 2012.... Too bad I don't get to participate in the cam comp; this is exactly the sort of thing that gets me motivated. 
Ok, now you look guilty.
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adatesman
Mar 26, 2010, 1:12 PM
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cracklover
Mar 26, 2010, 1:40 PM
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Aric,
Would you be willing to post up the data that fits your chart for your current prototype of your cam? Understanding, of course, that things change, and if it ever comes to market, it might not be exactly that.
But just out of curiosity.
Thanks!
GO
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adatesman
Mar 26, 2010, 1:49 PM
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cracklover
Mar 26, 2010, 2:08 PM
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adatesman wrote: cracklover wrote: Aric, Would you be willing to post up the data that fits your chart for your current prototype of your cam? Understanding, of course, that things change, and if it ever comes to market, it might not be exactly that. But just out of curiosity. Thanks! GO I'm afraid I'm going to have to punt on this for now, as the cam angle/range hasn't been nailed down and will be subject to the whim of whoever decides to license the technology. Basically I found a neat way to do the springs that will allow for much narrower head widths. Kinda along the lines of how CCH took things from a helical torsion spring to a flat wound torsion spring, but not really. But that sort of 'step out of the box' change in how things are done. EDIT- I guess I can actually answer part of the question... I'm currently thinking ~38mm wide heads just because I think that's a groovy middle of the road number (comparable to Mastercams, but there's no technical reason I can't hit at-or-below-C3 numbers for a 4 lobe cam without having to resort to wafer-thin lobes. EDITx2 to fix mixing of units...
Very cool!
GO
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rschap
Mar 26, 2010, 5:18 PM
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Well good job RC.com, way to kill a great thing.
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airscape
Mar 29, 2010, 6:29 AM
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johnwesely wrote: Alien killer.
No mexicans where harmed during the making of that cam...
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johnwesely
Mar 29, 2010, 6:34 AM
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airscape wrote: johnwesely wrote: Alien killer. No mexicans where harmed during the making of that cam...
...
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kennoyce
Mar 29, 2010, 11:10 AM
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In reply to: How narrow is your head in comparison to other cams?
Sorry I didn't get to this sooner. I haven't been online in a couple of days. Well anyway, the head on my cam is quite wide due to a few manufacturing constraints I had. That being said, using the same design I could easily get the head width down to alien size or smaller.
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johnwesely
Mar 29, 2010, 11:39 AM
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kennoyce wrote: In reply to: How narrow is your head in comparison to other cams? Sorry I didn't get to this sooner. I haven't been online in a couple of days. Well anyway, the head on my cam is quite wide due to a few manufacturing constraints I had. That being said, using the same design I could easily get the head width down to alien size or smaller.
Sweet. It looks like a good design. Congratulations on winning.
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adatesman
Apr 2, 2010, 5:49 PM
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kennoyce
Apr 5, 2010, 8:08 AM
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Sorry about that Aric, I promise you that I had no idea that it would be smelly on failure.
As for what exactly "bonzing" is, It is just a word made up by myself to describe a vacuum assisted bonding process used to draw Henkel 9394 epoxy resin in throughout the cable like when you braze a cable.
Thanks again for all of your work Aric and I am deeply sorry for the stinkiness.
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adatesman
Apr 5, 2010, 8:36 AM
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cracklover
Apr 5, 2010, 9:34 AM
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patto wrote: Awesome looking cam!  Except for one thing: kennoyce wrote: -Moderate cam angle of 16 degrees for greater holding power. Moderate cam angle of 16!! Greater holding power!? I don't know of any cam with with a cam angle giving a lower holding power than 16. Unless you are talking about misdrilled aliens. Aliens used 16 so with soft lobes in most rock I'm sure 16 would be fine.
Sarchasm: Noun. The gulf between the humor inherent in a sarcastic phrase, and the person who completely fails to get it.
Edited to add - sarchasm is a made up word (my favorite made up word). Just in case you missed that, too.
GO
(This post was edited by cracklover on Apr 5, 2010, 9:35 AM)
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kennoyce
Apr 5, 2010, 12:42 PM
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I am sorry if you didn't understand the sarcasm there. If you look through the list of specifications on my cam you may notice that it is nearly identical to this list found on CCH's website. I just copied the list from their website and changed anything that was relevent to my cam. I designed my cam with the 16 deg cam angle not for greater holding power, but simply because that is what cch uses and I wanted my cam to be as close to their cams as possible.
Thanks for the compliment on the cam, and sorry for any confusion about the features I listed.
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kennoyce
Apr 5, 2010, 12:56 PM
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In reply to: I'd suggest doing some reading on 'spelter sockets'. It's the only wire rope termination method that will get you 100% of the cable strength (swaging is usually only good for ~70%, IIRC) and is used predominantly in elevator cables, winch lines, etc. In a nutshell the fitting has a conical taper on the inside and you feed the end of the wire in through the small end, splay out the wires and then fill the fitting with molten zinc (or epoxy). I played with it a bit and it works well, but unfortunately I don't see a way to incorporate it into a commercial cam design due to the amount of time it takes to splay out the wires. Simply too much labor cost compared to simply upsizing the wire and swaging it.
Thanks for the info Aric, it does sound interesting. Like you said, it would probably be too labor intensive to incorporate into a commercial cam. I think I am going to have to play around a bit with my vacuum assisted bonding process because I am fairly sure that I can get higher strength than what I got with that cam. When I bonded the cable I was in such a hurry that I completely forgot to do any surface prep whatsoever on the bonding surfaces. There was probably still cutting fluid on the bonding surface from when I drilled the hole.
On a side note, I work in R&D and my work just picked up a 10 kip and a 50 kip instron to put in a new test lab. Hopefully I can do some of my own testing there now.
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adatesman
May 4, 2010, 12:11 AM
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kennoyce
May 4, 2010, 6:26 AM
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Looks good Aric, Thanks again for all of your work.
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kennoyce
May 4, 2010, 6:55 AM
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As far as the splitting of the home made cable eye goes, It doesn't surprise me in the least. When I drilled out the hole for the stem I was about to leave for red rocks so I just used my drill press and eye balled it for center. Because of this one of the walls ended up being much thinner than the other. I'm sure that is the one that split.
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johnwesely
May 4, 2010, 7:34 AM
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kennoyce wrote: As far as the splitting of the home made cable eye goes, It doesn't surprise me in the least. When I drilled out the hole for the stem I was about to leave for red rocks so I just used my drill press and eye balled it for center. Because of this one of the walls ended up being much thinner than the other. I'm sure that is the one that split.
Because of the way it broke, it seems like your Bonzing method may actually be pretty strong, especially because you said that you skipped some steps on that. Good luck with your design.
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cracklover
May 4, 2010, 7:44 AM
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Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 9673
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johnwesely wrote: kennoyce wrote: As far as the splitting of the home made cable eye goes, It doesn't surprise me in the least. When I drilled out the hole for the stem I was about to leave for red rocks so I just used my drill press and eye balled it for center. Because of this one of the walls ended up being much thinner than the other. I'm sure that is the one that split. Because of the way it broke, it seems like your Bonzing method may actually be pretty strong, especially because you said that you skipped some steps on that. Good luck with your design.
Especially since it appears not to have covered the whole cable (ironic, that).
GO
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jeremy11
May 4, 2010, 9:12 AM
Post #57 of 62
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Registered: May 28, 2004
Posts: 597
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Nice bonzing method! I wonder if the cable pulling out broke the aluminum, or if the aluminum broke then the cable pulled?
Looks like some more prototyping and surface prep is in order! Great idea and execution!
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olympicmtnboy
May 5, 2010, 1:58 PM
Post #58 of 62
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Registered: Feb 4, 2003
Posts: 267
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Nice job Ken and Aric, thanks for getting something togehter! I love seeing people's homemade stuff and then seeing someone rip it apart!
Aric, I know it's a lot of work to do these pics, vids, and write ups. I love watching.reading though and look forward to watching anything else you explode in the near future!
Cam comp next year?
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longshot76
May 5, 2012, 9:45 AM
Post #59 of 62
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Registered: Jun 1, 2010
Posts: 2
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can you guys please point me to the (probably deleted) thread for the 2010 comp results?
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kennoyce
May 6, 2012, 8:54 AM
Post #60 of 62
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Registered: Mar 6, 2001
Posts: 1238
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longshot76 wrote: can you guys please point me to the (probably deleted) thread for the 2010 comp results?
You just posted in it, unfortunately, Aric Datesman, the guy who ran the comp and posted the results deleted all of his content, so the results went with it.
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longshot76
May 7, 2012, 10:17 AM
Post #61 of 62
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Registered: Jun 1, 2010
Posts: 2
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that's too bad. i had a great time looking through the 2009 discussion and results.
Thanks for the reply though.
(This post was edited by longshot76 on May 7, 2012, 10:18 AM)
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