Forums: Climbing Information: Accident and Incident Analysis:
Interesting accident at the gunks on Saturday
RSS FeedRSS Feeds for Accident and Incident Analysis

Premier Sponsor:

 
First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ... 15 Next page Last page  View All


whipper


Mar 25, 2010, 9:13 AM
Post #51 of 360 (2840 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 21, 2002
Posts: 241

Re: [jt512] Interesting accident at the gunks on Saturday [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (4 ratings)  
Can't Post

Why do people love using their guides in guide mode, I just dont get it, it is NOT hard to do a redirected belay. I really see very little use for these devices, esp in the hands of inexperienced climbers.


Gmburns2000


Mar 25, 2010, 9:14 AM
Post #52 of 360 (2840 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 6, 2007
Posts: 15152

Re: [cracklover] Interesting accident at the gunks on Saturday [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

cracklover wrote:
benmoreite wrote:
cracklover wrote:
I just tried to replicate this yesterday. I found that when you pull on the brake strand of the rope in addition to pulling on the pull cord, with a full (115 lbs) of force on the rope, the device will invert completely. At that point you must either completely brake with the brake strand, or *release* the brake strand and release the pull cord, otherwise the climber will fall out of control.

GO

Indeed, when fully weighted, releasing the autoblock turns the whole setup into little more than a redirect, and you must break by pulling the rope in the opposite direction (i.e. up when setup in guide mode), which is incredibly difficult if you have set your anchor high (as is preferable for actually belaying) and you are using your body weight to unlock the device in the first place.

Actually, the interesting thing was that it didn't require me "fully weighting" the release to get this to happen. Basically, once the device started to partially release, a slight tug sideways or upwards on the brake strand caused it to open/release completely. In other words, I initiated the release with the cord, but then pulling on the brake strand of the rope released the block completely. At which point the only way to get the climber back in control was to either pull *harder* on the brake strand (counter-intuitive, as this is what opened the device so much in the first place), or simultaneously fully release both the brake strand of the rope and the pull cord.

GO

(edited to add a word for clarity)

So, if I'm reading this correctly, does that mean it is best to not pull on the brake strand when lowering (just keep your hand there, but use the sling - or whatever you're using to release the "lock" - to control the release of rope when lowering the climber)?


jt512


Mar 25, 2010, 9:14 AM
Post #53 of 360 (2839 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21892

Re: [IsayAutumn] Interesting accident at the gunks on Saturday [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (4 ratings)  
Can't Post

IsayAutumn wrote:
jt512 wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
That is why it is crucial to practice releasing an auto block belay device on the ground when nothing is at stake.

Or not use it in "guide mode" in the first place without a really good reason, especially when you might have to lower the climber. Since there is almost always the possibility that you'll have to lower the climber, it stands to reason that you should almost never use the device in this configuration.

Jay

Or you could learn how to do it correctly and safely. Guide mode offers a lot of advantages.

I can't think of anything you can do in "guide mode" that you can't with a munter hitch, and with a munter hitch, you can actually lower the climber. I suspect that most people belaying in "guide mode" are on more of an ego trip, than anything.

Jay


jt512


Mar 25, 2010, 9:18 AM
Post #54 of 360 (2835 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21892

Re: [whipper] Interesting accident at the gunks on Saturday [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (5 ratings)  
Can't Post

whipper wrote:
Why do people love using their guides in guide mode...

Because it has the word "guide" in it.

Jay


IsayAutumn


Mar 25, 2010, 9:21 AM
Post #55 of 360 (2827 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 8, 2008
Posts: 355

Re: [jt512] Interesting accident at the gunks on Saturday [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (2 ratings)  
Can't Post

jt512 wrote:
IsayAutumn wrote:
jt512 wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
That is why it is crucial to practice releasing an auto block belay device on the ground when nothing is at stake.

Or not use it in "guide mode" in the first place without a really good reason, especially when you might have to lower the climber. Since there is almost always the possibility that you'll have to lower the climber, it stands to reason that you should almost never use the device in this configuration.

Jay

Or you could learn how to do it correctly and safely. Guide mode offers a lot of advantages.

I can't think of anything you can do in "guide mode" that you can't with a munter hitch, and with a munter hitch, you can actually lower the climber. I suspect that most people belaying in "guide mode" are on more of an ego trip, than anything.

Jay

Easy to belay your second while drinking, taking photos, changing clothes, etc. Also easy to belay two seconds at the same time. You didn't think very hard, Jay. As for the ego trip, that's quite a leap. Speak for yourself.


jt512


Mar 25, 2010, 9:33 AM
Post #56 of 360 (2816 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21892

Re: [IsayAutumn] Interesting accident at the gunks on Saturday [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

IsayAutumn wrote:
jt512 wrote:
IsayAutumn wrote:
jt512 wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
That is why it is crucial to practice releasing an auto block belay device on the ground when nothing is at stake.

Or not use it in "guide mode" in the first place without a really good reason, especially when you might have to lower the climber. Since there is almost always the possibility that you'll have to lower the climber, it stands to reason that you should almost never use the device in this configuration.

Jay

Or you could learn how to do it correctly and safely. Guide mode offers a lot of advantages.

I can't think of anything you can do in "guide mode" that you can't with a munter hitch, and with a munter hitch, you can actually lower the climber. I suspect that most people belaying in "guide mode" are on more of an ego trip, than anything.

Jay

Easy to belay your second while drinking, taking photos, changing clothes, etc. ... You didn't think very hard, Jay.

It's not that I didn't think hard; it's that I don't climb with people whose priorities are eating, drinking, taking pictures, and changing their clothes while they're supposed to be belaying me.

In reply to:
Also easy to belay two seconds at the same time.


I'd imagine that it would be somewhat easier to do that with an autoblocking device than with two munter hitches, and if I frequently climbed with two seconds, I might get such a device, but then I'd basically be climbing as a guide, which, as the name suggests, is what "guide mode" is intended for.

In reply to:
As for the ego trip, that's quite a leap.

Not at all. It's clear from these discussions what's going on.

In reply to:
Speak for yourself.

Well I don't pretend to be a guide, and I don't use "guide mode," so I'm happy to speak for myself.

Jay


IsayAutumn


Mar 25, 2010, 9:40 AM
Post #57 of 360 (2807 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 8, 2008
Posts: 355

Re: [jt512] Interesting accident at the gunks on Saturday [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

jt512 wrote:
IsayAutumn wrote:
jt512 wrote:
IsayAutumn wrote:
jt512 wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
That is why it is crucial to practice releasing an auto block belay device on the ground when nothing is at stake.

Or not use it in "guide mode" in the first place without a really good reason, especially when you might have to lower the climber. Since there is almost always the possibility that you'll have to lower the climber, it stands to reason that you should almost never use the device in this configuration.

Jay

Or you could learn how to do it correctly and safely. Guide mode offers a lot of advantages.

I can't think of anything you can do in "guide mode" that you can't with a munter hitch, and with a munter hitch, you can actually lower the climber. I suspect that most people belaying in "guide mode" are on more of an ego trip, than anything.

Jay

Easy to belay your second while drinking, taking photos, changing clothes, etc. ... You didn't think very hard, Jay.

It's not that I didn't think hard; it's that I don't climb with people whose priorities are eating, drinking, taking pictures, and changing their clothes while they're supposed to be belaying me.

In reply to:
Also easy to belay two seconds at the same time.


I'd imagine that it would be somewhat easier to do that with an autoblocking device than with two munter hitches, and if I frequently climbed with two seconds, I might get such a device, but then I'd basically be climbing as a guide, which, as the name suggests, is what "guide mode" is intended for.

In reply to:
As for the ego trip, that's quite a leap.

Not at all. It's clear from these discussions what's going on.

In reply to:
Speak for yourself.

Well I don't pretend to be a guide, and I don't use "guide mode," so I'm happy to speak for myself.

Jay

I never suggested that using "guide mode" at a sport crag was worthwhile. But I'm sure you can imagine why eating, drinking, taking pictures, and changing clothes might be important to do while simultaneously belaying when you are trad climbing (sometimes) or alpine climbing (most of the time).

As for people pretending to be guides, I think we all know there is only one person on this site who fits into that category. I don't think that just because you use a product that has something called "guide mode" means that you have an ego or are delusional.


Partner cracklover


Mar 25, 2010, 10:32 AM
Post #58 of 360 (2761 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 10010

Re: [Gmburns2000] Interesting accident at the gunks on Saturday [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Gmburns2000 wrote:
cracklover wrote:
benmoreite wrote:
cracklover wrote:
I just tried to replicate this yesterday. I found that when you pull on the brake strand of the rope in addition to pulling on the pull cord, with a full (115 lbs) of force on the rope, the device will invert completely. At that point you must either completely brake with the brake strand, or *release* the brake strand and release the pull cord, otherwise the climber will fall out of control.

GO

Indeed, when fully weighted, releasing the autoblock turns the whole setup into little more than a redirect, and you must break by pulling the rope in the opposite direction (i.e. up when setup in guide mode), which is incredibly difficult if you have set your anchor high (as is preferable for actually belaying) and you are using your body weight to unlock the device in the first place.

Actually, the interesting thing was that it didn't require me "fully weighting" the release to get this to happen. Basically, once the device started to partially release, a slight tug sideways or upwards on the brake strand caused it to open/release completely. In other words, I initiated the release with the cord, but then pulling on the brake strand of the rope released the block completely. At which point the only way to get the climber back in control was to either pull *harder* on the brake strand (counter-intuitive, as this is what opened the device so much in the first place), or simultaneously fully release both the brake strand of the rope and the pull cord.

GO

(edited to add a word for clarity)

So, if I'm reading this correctly, does that mean it is best to not pull on the brake strand when lowering (just keep your hand there, but use the sling - or whatever you're using to release the "lock" - to control the release of rope when lowering the climber)?

In the extremely limited testing I did, I found that the easiest way to lower the climber was just that. If one redirects the pull cord through the anchor, one can lower the climber slowly by variably weighting the cord.

This is exactly what BD's video shows, and, I suspect, more or less exactly what the belayer who dropped the climber did.

In this instance, I think the easiest way is absolutely inferior, because if things get out of control, or the device does not behave well you are not in a good position to brake with the brake strand only.

So if I'm ever in this position, I will redirect the brake strand through the anchor above, and once the device is released, I will lower the climber using force on the brake strand only.

This, to me, seems much safer than assuming one can get the friction level of the device correct merely by varying the amount of pull on the release cord, especially considering that a little pull on the brake strand can work in concert with the pull cord to *lower* the friction.

GO


Partner cracklover


Mar 25, 2010, 10:36 AM
Post #59 of 360 (2751 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 10010

Re: [jt512] Interesting accident at the gunks on Saturday [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

jt512 wrote:
IsayAutumn wrote:
jt512 wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
That is why it is crucial to practice releasing an auto block belay device on the ground when nothing is at stake.

Or not use it in "guide mode" in the first place without a really good reason, especially when you might have to lower the climber. Since there is almost always the possibility that you'll have to lower the climber, it stands to reason that you should almost never use the device in this configuration.

Jay

Or you could learn how to do it correctly and safely. Guide mode offers a lot of advantages.

I can't think of anything you can do in "guide mode" that you can't with a munter hitch, and with a munter hitch, you can actually lower the climber. I suspect that most people belaying in "guide mode" are on more of an ego trip, than anything.

Jay

Nah, I think most folks who use it in that mode do so simply because of the convenience factor.

GO


boymeetsrock


Mar 25, 2010, 10:44 AM
Post #60 of 360 (2741 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 11, 2005
Posts: 1709

Re: [cracklover] Interesting accident at the gunks on Saturday [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (3 ratings)  
Can't Post

cracklover wrote:
jt512 wrote:
IsayAutumn wrote:
jt512 wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
That is why it is crucial to practice releasing an auto block belay device on the ground when nothing is at stake.

Or not use it in "guide mode" in the first place without a really good reason, especially when you might have to lower the climber. Since there is almost always the possibility that you'll have to lower the climber, it stands to reason that you should almost never use the device in this configuration.

Jay

Or you could learn how to do it correctly and safely. Guide mode offers a lot of advantages.

I can't think of anything you can do in "guide mode" that you can't with a munter hitch, and with a munter hitch, you can actually lower the climber. I suspect that most people belaying in "guide mode" are on more of an ego trip, than anything.

Jay

Nah, I think most folks who use it in that mode do so simply because of the convenience factor.

GO

Speak for yourself. I TOTALLY use guide mode for the ego trip. Crazy

Now, posting for the ego trip... Well that is more of Jay's specialty. Tongue


jt512


Mar 25, 2010, 10:45 AM
Post #61 of 360 (2740 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21892

Re: [IsayAutumn] Interesting accident at the gunks on Saturday [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

IsayAutumn wrote:
jt512 wrote:
IsayAutumn wrote:
jt512 wrote:
IsayAutumn wrote:
jt512 wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
That is why it is crucial to practice releasing an auto block belay device on the ground when nothing is at stake.

Or not use it in "guide mode" in the first place without a really good reason, especially when you might have to lower the climber. Since there is almost always the possibility that you'll have to lower the climber, it stands to reason that you should almost never use the device in this configuration.

Jay

Or you could learn how to do it correctly and safely. Guide mode offers a lot of advantages.

I can't think of anything you can do in "guide mode" that you can't with a munter hitch, and with a munter hitch, you can actually lower the climber. I suspect that most people belaying in "guide mode" are on more of an ego trip, than anything.

Jay

Easy to belay your second while drinking, taking photos, changing clothes, etc. ... You didn't think very hard, Jay.

It's not that I didn't think hard; it's that I don't climb with people whose priorities are eating, drinking, taking pictures, and changing their clothes while they're supposed to be belaying me.

In reply to:
Also easy to belay two seconds at the same time.


I'd imagine that it would be somewhat easier to do that with an autoblocking device than with two munter hitches, and if I frequently climbed with two seconds, I might get such a device, but then I'd basically be climbing as a guide, which, as the name suggests, is what "guide mode" is intended for.

In reply to:
As for the ego trip, that's quite a leap.

Not at all. It's clear from these discussions what's going on.

In reply to:
Speak for yourself.

Well I don't pretend to be a guide, and I don't use "guide mode," so I'm happy to speak for myself.

Jay

I never suggested that using "guide mode" at a sport crag was worthwhile. But I'm sure you can imagine why eating, drinking, taking pictures, and changing clothes might be important to do while simultaneously belaying when you are trad climbing (sometimes) or alpine climbing (most of the time).

You've been climbing, what, a year, and you're lecturing us on the indispensability of an autoblocking belay device. I've probably led 100 trad pitches for every one you have, and I have never, even once, changed my clothes or taken a picture while belaying, nor have I ever used, or felt the need to use, an autoblocking belay device. My hand stays on the brake side of the rope from the moment I say "on belay" till the moment I say "off belay." That is true whether I'm using an ATC or a grigri, and it would be just as true if I were using an autblocking belay device. So, no, for me, using an autoblocking device would not make it the least bit easier to eat, drink, shit, fuck, take pictures, change my clothes, or do anything else while belaying.

Jay


IsayAutumn


Mar 25, 2010, 10:53 AM
Post #62 of 360 (2730 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 8, 2008
Posts: 355

Re: [jt512] Interesting accident at the gunks on Saturday [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

jt512 wrote:
IsayAutumn wrote:
jt512 wrote:
IsayAutumn wrote:
jt512 wrote:
IsayAutumn wrote:
jt512 wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
That is why it is crucial to practice releasing an auto block belay device on the ground when nothing is at stake.

Or not use it in "guide mode" in the first place without a really good reason, especially when you might have to lower the climber. Since there is almost always the possibility that you'll have to lower the climber, it stands to reason that you should almost never use the device in this configuration.

Jay

Or you could learn how to do it correctly and safely. Guide mode offers a lot of advantages.

I can't think of anything you can do in "guide mode" that you can't with a munter hitch, and with a munter hitch, you can actually lower the climber. I suspect that most people belaying in "guide mode" are on more of an ego trip, than anything.

Jay

Easy to belay your second while drinking, taking photos, changing clothes, etc. ... You didn't think very hard, Jay.

It's not that I didn't think hard; it's that I don't climb with people whose priorities are eating, drinking, taking pictures, and changing their clothes while they're supposed to be belaying me.

In reply to:
Also easy to belay two seconds at the same time.


I'd imagine that it would be somewhat easier to do that with an autoblocking device than with two munter hitches, and if I frequently climbed with two seconds, I might get such a device, but then I'd basically be climbing as a guide, which, as the name suggests, is what "guide mode" is intended for.

In reply to:
As for the ego trip, that's quite a leap.

Not at all. It's clear from these discussions what's going on.

In reply to:
Speak for yourself.

Well I don't pretend to be a guide, and I don't use "guide mode," so I'm happy to speak for myself.

Jay

I never suggested that using "guide mode" at a sport crag was worthwhile. But I'm sure you can imagine why eating, drinking, taking pictures, and changing clothes might be important to do while simultaneously belaying when you are trad climbing (sometimes) or alpine climbing (most of the time).

You've been climbing, what, a year, and you're lecturing us on the indispensability of an autoblocking belay device. I've probably led 100 trad pitches for every one you have, and I have never, even once, changed my clothes or taken a picture while belaying, nor have I ever used, or felt the need to use, an autoblocking belay device. My hand stays on the brake side of the rope from the moment I say "on belay" till the moment I say "off belay." That is true whether I'm using an ATC or a grigri, and it would be just as true if I were using an autblocking belay device. So, no, for me, using an autoblocking device would not make it the least bit easier to eat, drink, shit, fuck, take pictures, change my clothes, or do anything else while belaying.

Jay

Haha! Sorry to anger you.

No, I haven't been climbing as long as you. But I do make use of my autolocking belay device quite often. And I'm not lecturing anyone. You are the only one that has made the case that they are worthless. They are not. I personally have done all of those things you described while belaying, except for one, sadly. And guess what? It didn't make my climber any less safe. That is the value of the device.

Oh yeah, and keeping your hand perpetually on an autolocking belay device while you belay a second (as you claimed you would do if you had one) is stupid and superfluous. Look how it worked for the dude in the accident. You don't need to do it. That's the point.


jt512


Mar 25, 2010, 10:57 AM
Post #63 of 360 (2723 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21892

Re: [IsayAutumn] Interesting accident at the gunks on Saturday [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

IsayAutumn wrote:

Oh yeah, and keeping your hand perpetually on an autolocking belay device while you belay a second (as you claimed you would do if you had one) is stupid and superfluous.

If you think that, that we won't be climbing together.

Jay


jt512


Mar 25, 2010, 11:01 AM
Post #64 of 360 (2717 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21892

Re: [cracklover] Interesting accident at the gunks on Saturday [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

cracklover wrote:

In the extremely limited testing I did, I found that the easiest way to lower the climber was just that. If one redirects the pull cord through the anchor, one can lower the climber slowly by variably weighting the cord.

This is exactly what BD's video shows, and, I suspect, more or less exactly what the belayer who dropped the climber did.

In this instance, I think the easiest way is absolutely inferior, because if things get out of control, or the device does not behave well you are not in a good position to brake with the brake strand only.

So if I'm ever in this position, I will redirect the brake strand through the anchor above, and once the device is released, I will lower the climber using force on the brake strand only.

This, to me, seems much safer than assuming one can get the friction level of the device correct merely by varying the amount of pull on the release cord, especially considering that a little pull on the brake strand can work in concert with the pull cord to *lower* the friction.

GO

The ATC-Guide is starting to sound like a belay device I want to have no part of, regardless of which end of the rope I'm on.

Jay


boymeetsrock


Mar 25, 2010, 11:01 AM
Post #65 of 360 (2715 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 11, 2005
Posts: 1709

Re: [IsayAutumn] Interesting accident at the gunks on Saturday [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

IsayAutumn wrote:
jt512 wrote:
IsayAutumn wrote:
jt512 wrote:
IsayAutumn wrote:
jt512 wrote:
IsayAutumn wrote:
jt512 wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
That is why it is crucial to practice releasing an auto block belay device on the ground when nothing is at stake.

Or not use it in "guide mode" in the first place without a really good reason, especially when you might have to lower the climber. Since there is almost always the possibility that you'll have to lower the climber, it stands to reason that you should almost never use the device in this configuration.

Jay

Or you could learn how to do it correctly and safely. Guide mode offers a lot of advantages.

I can't think of anything you can do in "guide mode" that you can't with a munter hitch, and with a munter hitch, you can actually lower the climber. I suspect that most people belaying in "guide mode" are on more of an ego trip, than anything.

Jay

Easy to belay your second while drinking, taking photos, changing clothes, etc. ... You didn't think very hard, Jay.

It's not that I didn't think hard; it's that I don't climb with people whose priorities are eating, drinking, taking pictures, and changing their clothes while they're supposed to be belaying me.

In reply to:
Also easy to belay two seconds at the same time.


I'd imagine that it would be somewhat easier to do that with an autoblocking device than with two munter hitches, and if I frequently climbed with two seconds, I might get such a device, but then I'd basically be climbing as a guide, which, as the name suggests, is what "guide mode" is intended for.

In reply to:
As for the ego trip, that's quite a leap.

Not at all. It's clear from these discussions what's going on.

In reply to:
Speak for yourself.

Well I don't pretend to be a guide, and I don't use "guide mode," so I'm happy to speak for myself.

Jay

I never suggested that using "guide mode" at a sport crag was worthwhile. But I'm sure you can imagine why eating, drinking, taking pictures, and changing clothes might be important to do while simultaneously belaying when you are trad climbing (sometimes) or alpine climbing (most of the time).

You've been climbing, what, a year, and you're lecturing us on the indispensability of an autoblocking belay device. I've probably led 100 trad pitches for every one you have, and I have never, even once, changed my clothes or taken a picture while belaying, nor have I ever used, or felt the need to use, an autoblocking belay device. My hand stays on the brake side of the rope from the moment I say "on belay" till the moment I say "off belay." That is true whether I'm using an ATC or a grigri, and it would be just as true if I were using an autblocking belay device. So, no, for me, using an autoblocking device would not make it the least bit easier to eat, drink, shit, fuck, take pictures, change my clothes, or do anything else while belaying.

Jay

Haha! Sorry to anger you.

No, I haven't been climbing as long as you. But I do make use of my autolocking belay device quite often. And I'm not lecturing anyone. You are the only one that has made the case that they are worthless. They are not. I personally have done all of those things you described while belaying, except for one, sadly. And guess what? It didn't make my climber any less safe. That is the value of the device.

Oh yeah, and keeping your hand perpetually on an autolocking belay device while you belay a second (as you claimed you would do if you had one) is stupid and superfluous. Look how it worked for the dude in the accident. You don't need to do it. That's the point.

Damn... I was right there with you up until that last paragraph. Even though it is an autoblocking devise your hand should still remain on the brake line at all times. The advantage is that you can leave a loop of slack between your brake hand and the belay devise while fussing with various sundries. And your example RE the OP is really not correct.


IsayAutumn


Mar 25, 2010, 11:02 AM
Post #66 of 360 (2713 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 8, 2008
Posts: 355

Re: [jt512] Interesting accident at the gunks on Saturday [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

jt512 wrote:
IsayAutumn wrote:

Oh yeah, and keeping your hand perpetually on an autolocking belay device while you belay a second (as you claimed you would do if you had one) is stupid and superfluous.

If you think that, that we won't be climbing together.

Jay

I'm sorry you think that.

I know you don't use one, but your statement betrays an ignorance of the device when used in guide mode. Holding onto the break strand does not make it any easier to catch a fall while belaying. Plus, it makes it harder to fuck.


jt512


Mar 25, 2010, 11:05 AM
Post #67 of 360 (2706 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21892

Re: [IsayAutumn] Interesting accident at the gunks on Saturday [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

IsayAutumn wrote:
jt512 wrote:
IsayAutumn wrote:

Oh yeah, and keeping your hand perpetually on an autolocking belay device while you belay a second (as you claimed you would do if you had one) is stupid and superfluous.

If you think that, that we won't be climbing together.

Jay

I'm sorry you think that.

It looks like "boymeetsrock" thinks that, too. If you persist in your habit of removing your brake hand from the rope, I'd say you're down two potential partners, and counting.

Jay


IsayAutumn


Mar 25, 2010, 11:07 AM
Post #68 of 360 (2702 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 8, 2008
Posts: 355

Re: [boymeetsrock] Interesting accident at the gunks on Saturday [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

boymeetsrock wrote:
Damn... I was right there with you up until that last paragraph. Even though it is an autoblocking devise your hand should still remain on the brake line at all times. The advantage is that you can leave a loop of slack between your brake hand and the belay devise while fussing with various sundries. And your example RE the OP is really not correct.

I do not understand this. Could you please clarify? The autolocking device, in my experience, will catch a fall, even if you should be caught without your hands on the device.

Of course, most people will have a hand on the device most of the time to collect slack as the climber ascends, but this is not strictly necessary to safely arrest a fall. My point to Jay was that, by keeping your hands on the device at all times and forgoing the "fussing with various sundries," you eliminate the advantages of the device. If you want to throw a jacket on while belaying with the thing in guide mode, go ahead. Am I wrong?


boymeetsrock


Mar 25, 2010, 11:07 AM
Post #69 of 360 (2700 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 11, 2005
Posts: 1709

Re: [jt512] Interesting accident at the gunks on Saturday [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

jt512 wrote:
cracklover wrote:

In the extremely limited testing I did, I found that the easiest way to lower the climber was just that. If one redirects the pull cord through the anchor, one can lower the climber slowly by variably weighting the cord.

This is exactly what BD's video shows, and, I suspect, more or less exactly what the belayer who dropped the climber did.

In this instance, I think the easiest way is absolutely inferior, because if things get out of control, or the device does not behave well you are not in a good position to brake with the brake strand only.

So if I'm ever in this position, I will redirect the brake strand through the anchor above, and once the device is released, I will lower the climber using force on the brake strand only.

This, to me, seems much safer than assuming one can get the friction level of the device correct merely by varying the amount of pull on the release cord, especially considering that a little pull on the brake strand can work in concert with the pull cord to *lower* the friction.

GO

The ATC-Guide is starting to sound like a belay device I want to have no part of, regardless of which end of the rope I'm on.

Jay


You're probably right here. The ATC-Guide or similar devices aren't really the best device for the type of climbing you do most regularly (single pitch sport). In fact a Gri-Gri used in auto-block mode wouldn't be recommended either I would think.

However, in the multi-pitch arena they have some real advantages, as discussed above.


boymeetsrock


Mar 25, 2010, 11:09 AM
Post #70 of 360 (2697 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 11, 2005
Posts: 1709

Re: [jt512] Interesting accident at the gunks on Saturday [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

jt512 wrote:
IsayAutumn wrote:
jt512 wrote:
IsayAutumn wrote:

Oh yeah, and keeping your hand perpetually on an autolocking belay device while you belay a second (as you claimed you would do if you had one) is stupid and superfluous.

If you think that, that we won't be climbing together.

Jay

I'm sorry you think that.

It looks like "boymeetsrock" thinks that, too. If you persist in your habit of removing your brake hand from the rope, I'd say you're down two potential partners, and counting.

Jay

Apparently, you didn't read my post two above yours.


jt512


Mar 25, 2010, 11:11 AM
Post #71 of 360 (2695 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21892

Re: [boymeetsrock] Interesting accident at the gunks on Saturday [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

boymeetsrock wrote:
jt512 wrote:
IsayAutumn wrote:
jt512 wrote:
IsayAutumn wrote:

Oh yeah, and keeping your hand perpetually on an autolocking belay device while you belay a second (as you claimed you would do if you had one) is stupid and superfluous.

If you think that, that we won't be climbing together.

Jay

I'm sorry you think that.

It looks like "boymeetsrock" thinks that, too. If you persist in your habit of removing your brake hand from the rope, I'd say you're down two potential partners, and counting.

Jay

Apparently, you didn't read my post two above yours.

The one where you told him to keep his brake hand on the rope?

Jay


boymeetsrock


Mar 25, 2010, 11:13 AM
Post #72 of 360 (2690 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 11, 2005
Posts: 1709

Re: [IsayAutumn] Interesting accident at the gunks on Saturday [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

IsayAutumn wrote:
boymeetsrock wrote:
Damn... I was right there with you up until that last paragraph. Even though it is an autoblocking devise your hand should still remain on the brake line at all times. The advantage is that you can leave a loop of slack between your brake hand and the belay devise while fussing with various sundries. And your example RE the OP is really not correct.

I do not understand this. Could you please clarify? The autolocking device, in my experience, will catch a fall, even if you should be caught without your hands on the device.

Of course, most people will have a hand on the device most of the time to collect slack as the climber ascends, but this is not strictly necessary to safely arrest a fall. My point to Jay was that, by keeping your hands on the device at all times and forgoing the "fussing with various sundries," you eliminate the advantages of the device. If you want to throw a jacket on while belaying with the thing in guide mode, go ahead. Am I wrong?


Yes, you are wrong. Even though the devise is an auto-blocking devise you should always have your hand on the brake line. ALWAYS. The belay devise SHOULD always lock off in auto-block mode. Accidents can happen though, and redundancy is key. Keep a hand on the brake line.


boymeetsrock


Mar 25, 2010, 11:14 AM
Post #73 of 360 (2687 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 11, 2005
Posts: 1709

Re: [jt512] Interesting accident at the gunks on Saturday [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

jt512 wrote:
boymeetsrock wrote:
jt512 wrote:
IsayAutumn wrote:
jt512 wrote:
IsayAutumn wrote:

Oh yeah, and keeping your hand perpetually on an autolocking belay device while you belay a second (as you claimed you would do if you had one) is stupid and superfluous.

If you think that, that we won't be climbing together.

Jay

I'm sorry you think that.

It looks like "boymeetsrock" thinks that, too. If you persist in your habit of removing your brake hand from the rope, I'd say you're down two potential partners, and counting.

Jay

Apparently, you didn't read my post two above yours.

The one where you told him to keep his brake hand on the rope?

Jay


Sorry, I misunderstood your intent. I thought you were disagreeing with me. My B.


iron106


Mar 25, 2010, 11:17 AM
Post #74 of 360 (2681 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 7, 2008
Posts: 205

Re: [IsayAutumn] Interesting accident at the gunks on Saturday [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
Oh yeah, and keeping your hand perpetually on an autolocking belay device while you belay a second (as you claimed you would do if you had one) is stupid and superfluous. Look how it worked for the dude in the accident. You don't need to do it. That's the point.

Actually look how it worked out for him, holding on to the brake. He held on and she did not deck. He held it no matter what.


IsayAutumn


Mar 25, 2010, 11:18 AM
Post #75 of 360 (2680 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 8, 2008
Posts: 355

Re: [boymeetsrock] Interesting accident at the gunks on Saturday [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

boymeetsrock wrote:
IsayAutumn wrote:
boymeetsrock wrote:
Damn... I was right there with you up until that last paragraph. Even though it is an autoblocking devise your hand should still remain on the brake line at all times. The advantage is that you can leave a loop of slack between your brake hand and the belay devise while fussing with various sundries. And your example RE the OP is really not correct.

I do not understand this. Could you please clarify? The autolocking device, in my experience, will catch a fall, even if you should be caught without your hands on the device.

Of course, most people will have a hand on the device most of the time to collect slack as the climber ascends, but this is not strictly necessary to safely arrest a fall. My point to Jay was that, by keeping your hands on the device at all times and forgoing the "fussing with various sundries," you eliminate the advantages of the device. If you want to throw a jacket on while belaying with the thing in guide mode, go ahead. Am I wrong?


Yes, you are wrong. Even though the devise is an auto-blocking devise you should always have your hand on the brake line. ALWAYS. The belay devise SHOULD always lock off in auto-block mode. Accidents can happen though, and redundancy is key. Keep a hand on the brake line.

Most of the time when I use the device in guide mode, it is high above my head. Often I extend my belay several feet away from the anchor via my tie-in with the rope so I can see my second climbing. Can you explain how I would stop my second from falling with my hand on the brake strand if the device should fail to arrest a fall? That was my point about mentioning the accident scenario. If the device should fail (has anyone heard of this happening?), you will not be able to arrest the fall unless you can get your hand above the belay device or redirect the rope in some fashion.

Has anyone had an ATC fail on them? This seems about as likely as a carabiner breaking.

First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ... 15 Next page Last page  View All

Forums : Climbing Information : Accident and Incident Analysis

 


Search for (options)

Log In:

Username:
Password: Remember me:

Go Register
Go Lost Password?
$107.06 (10% off)
$175.73 (10% off)
$8.55 (10% off)
$13.46 (10% off)



Follow us on Twiter Become a Fan on Facebook