Forums: Climbing Information: Accident and Incident Analysis:
Interesting accident at the gunks on Saturday
RSS FeedRSS Feeds for Accident and Incident Analysis

Premier Sponsor:

 
First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ... 15 Next page Last page  View All


benmoreite


Mar 25, 2010, 12:24 PM
Post #101 of 360 (2702 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 17, 2006
Posts: 64

Re: [IsayAutumn] Interesting accident at the gunks on Saturday [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

I am a pretty big fan of the guide in select applications, but that being said, I, like many others, don't climb with anyone who can't or won't keep their hand on the brake strand, it doesn't matter what device you are using.

The guide is a good device that, when used correctly, facilitates doing many things that, as Jay has said, don't require a specialized device. In most situations a munter is as good, if not better, than a guide. But I like the guide and will keep using it when the situation warrants.

As for my ego, would it be better if I used a Reverso, or just called it a plaquette?


jt512


Mar 25, 2010, 12:25 PM
Post #102 of 360 (2701 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21890

Re: [benmoreite] Interesting accident at the gunks on Saturday [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

benmoreite wrote:
From Black Diamond's instructions for the ATC Guide: "To belay the seconding climber(s), feed rope(s) into the device with one hand while pulling the slack through the device with the breaking hand (fig. 5). The device will lock if the climber(s) falls. It will still be possible to take in the rope of one climber even if the other had fallen. WARNING - Never take your breaking hand off either rope under any circumstances."

You beat me to it. To clarify, the above quote is from the section of the manual entitled "Using the ATC–Guide in Guide Mode."

Link to the manual.

Jay


Gmburns2000


Mar 25, 2010, 12:27 PM
Post #103 of 360 (2693 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 6, 2007
Posts: 15113

Re: [cracklover] Interesting accident at the gunks on Saturday [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

cracklover wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
cracklover wrote:
benmoreite wrote:
cracklover wrote:
I just tried to replicate this yesterday. I found that when you pull on the brake strand of the rope in addition to pulling on the pull cord, with a full (115 lbs) of force on the rope, the device will invert completely. At that point you must either completely brake with the brake strand, or *release* the brake strand and release the pull cord, otherwise the climber will fall out of control.

GO

Indeed, when fully weighted, releasing the autoblock turns the whole setup into little more than a redirect, and you must break by pulling the rope in the opposite direction (i.e. up when setup in guide mode), which is incredibly difficult if you have set your anchor high (as is preferable for actually belaying) and you are using your body weight to unlock the device in the first place.

Actually, the interesting thing was that it didn't require me "fully weighting" the release to get this to happen. Basically, once the device started to partially release, a slight tug sideways or upwards on the brake strand caused it to open/release completely. In other words, I initiated the release with the cord, but then pulling on the brake strand of the rope released the block completely. At which point the only way to get the climber back in control was to either pull *harder* on the brake strand (counter-intuitive, as this is what opened the device so much in the first place), or simultaneously fully release both the brake strand of the rope and the pull cord.

GO

(edited to add a word for clarity)

So, if I'm reading this correctly, does that mean it is best to not pull on the brake strand when lowering (just keep your hand there, but use the sling - or whatever you're using to release the "lock" - to control the release of rope when lowering the climber)?

In the extremely limited testing I did, I found that the easiest way to lower the climber was just that. If one redirects the pull cord through the anchor, one can lower the climber slowly by variably weighting the cord.

This is exactly what BD's video shows, and, I suspect, more or less exactly what the belayer who dropped the climber did.

In this instance, I think the easiest way is absolutely inferior, because if things get out of control, or the device does not behave well you are not in a good position to brake with the brake strand only.

So if I'm ever in this position, I will redirect the brake strand through the anchor above, and once the device is released, I will lower the climber using force on the brake strand only.

This, to me, seems much safer than assuming one can get the friction level of the device correct merely by varying the amount of pull on the release cord, especially considering that a little pull on the brake strand can work in concert with the pull cord to *lower* the friction.

GO

Hmmm...well, I've lowered before and haven't had a problem, but that may be my paranoia about letting it open up too much. Thus, my lowering has been slow.

I'll see if I can try that redirect with the brake strand to see how that works. it still sounds as if there's potential for not being able to control it well, though, but that just may be because my grip is weak.


benmoreite


Mar 25, 2010, 12:30 PM
Post #104 of 360 (2686 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 17, 2006
Posts: 64

Re: [mojomonkey] Interesting accident at the gunks on Saturday [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

mojomonkey wrote:
It seems to be missed here that the description the belayer provided is not the correct usage, per Black Diamond.

the belayer wrote:
To lower her, I girth hitched a sling to the belay biner and re-directed it through the anchor.

The "pull cord" is supposed to be girth hitched to the little notch on the device, not to the belay carabiner. Someone on Gunks.com asked the belayer if that was really what he did, or a typo, but there has been no response yet.

You are right that the BD instructions say to girth hitch off of the little notch. However, releasing a plaquette, like the B-52, was traditionally achieved by hitching the biner, and this works fine. Whether BD would support that configuration, you'd have to ask them. Adding the release notch, as BD and Petzl have done, is, IMO, mostly a marketing gimmick. Maybe the notch is "better" in some way, but not that I am aware of.

At any rate, if that's that the dude at the Gunks did, I do not believe it contributed to the accident.


yokese


Mar 25, 2010, 12:32 PM
Post #105 of 360 (2680 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jan 17, 2006
Posts: 672

Re: [scotty1974] Interesting accident at the gunks on Saturday [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

scotty1974 wrote:
I find that they can be handy on multi-pitch scenarios where I'm stacking the rope over my attachment strand. It allows me to feed the rope in front of me, which make for easier stacking.

That being said I've never tried to lower off it.

+1

I don't have an ATC guide, but I've used a Gigi plate for multipitch climbing for many years. And, like you, I've never tried to lower anyone off it.


Partner cracklover


Mar 25, 2010, 12:33 PM
Post #106 of 360 (2675 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 9974

Re: [Gmburns2000] Interesting accident at the gunks on Saturday [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Gmburns2000 wrote:
cracklover wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
cracklover wrote:
benmoreite wrote:
cracklover wrote:
I just tried to replicate this yesterday. I found that when you pull on the brake strand of the rope in addition to pulling on the pull cord, with a full (115 lbs) of force on the rope, the device will invert completely. At that point you must either completely brake with the brake strand, or *release* the brake strand and release the pull cord, otherwise the climber will fall out of control.

GO

Indeed, when fully weighted, releasing the autoblock turns the whole setup into little more than a redirect, and you must break by pulling the rope in the opposite direction (i.e. up when setup in guide mode), which is incredibly difficult if you have set your anchor high (as is preferable for actually belaying) and you are using your body weight to unlock the device in the first place.

Actually, the interesting thing was that it didn't require me "fully weighting" the release to get this to happen. Basically, once the device started to partially release, a slight tug sideways or upwards on the brake strand caused it to open/release completely. In other words, I initiated the release with the cord, but then pulling on the brake strand of the rope released the block completely. At which point the only way to get the climber back in control was to either pull *harder* on the brake strand (counter-intuitive, as this is what opened the device so much in the first place), or simultaneously fully release both the brake strand of the rope and the pull cord.

GO

(edited to add a word for clarity)

So, if I'm reading this correctly, does that mean it is best to not pull on the brake strand when lowering (just keep your hand there, but use the sling - or whatever you're using to release the "lock" - to control the release of rope when lowering the climber)?

In the extremely limited testing I did, I found that the easiest way to lower the climber was just that. If one redirects the pull cord through the anchor, one can lower the climber slowly by variably weighting the cord.

This is exactly what BD's video shows, and, I suspect, more or less exactly what the belayer who dropped the climber did.

In this instance, I think the easiest way is absolutely inferior, because if things get out of control, or the device does not behave well you are not in a good position to brake with the brake strand only.

So if I'm ever in this position, I will redirect the brake strand through the anchor above, and once the device is released, I will lower the climber using force on the brake strand only.

This, to me, seems much safer than assuming one can get the friction level of the device correct merely by varying the amount of pull on the release cord, especially considering that a little pull on the brake strand can work in concert with the pull cord to *lower* the friction.

GO

Hmmm...well, I've lowered before and haven't had a problem, but that may be my paranoia about letting it open up too much. Thus, my lowering has been slow.

I'll see if I can try that redirect with the brake strand to see how that works. it still sounds as if there's potential for not being able to control it well, though, but that just may be because my grip is weak.

Yes, as I said, I think your method is the quickest and easiest one. And I have no doubt that it is often successful. However, given that I was able to re-create a problem situation, and the fact that vegastradguy had a similar issue once, I will instead use the brake-strand-redirect method if I'm ever in the situation where lowering someone on an atc guide in guide mode is required.

You will do whatever you think is best.

GO


benmoreite


Mar 25, 2010, 12:34 PM
Post #107 of 360 (2670 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 17, 2006
Posts: 64

Re: [jt512] Interesting accident at the gunks on Saturday [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

jt512 wrote:
benmoreite wrote:
From Black Diamond's instructions for the ATC Guide: "To belay the seconding climber(s), feed rope(s) into the device with one hand while pulling the slack through the device with the breaking hand (fig. 5). The device will lock if the climber(s) falls. It will still be possible to take in the rope of one climber even if the other had fallen. WARNING - Never take your breaking hand off either rope under any circumstances."

You beat me to it. To clarify, the above quote is from the section of the manual entitled "Using the ATC–Guide in Guide Mode."

Link to the manual.

Jay

Just to add:

The instructions from BD also say:
WARNING - Make absolutely sure you have a firm hold on the rope with the brake hand before releasing the device because a locked rope can release quickly.

This is a little misleading since it requires more than just a firm grip but also a sufficient angle to create friction. However, the warning is accurate in that the rope can go from locked to free very quickly.


benmoreite


Mar 25, 2010, 12:37 PM
Post #108 of 360 (2664 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 17, 2006
Posts: 64

Re: [Gmburns2000] Interesting accident at the gunks on Saturday [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Gmburns2000 wrote:
cracklover wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
cracklover wrote:
benmoreite wrote:
cracklover wrote:
I just tried to replicate this yesterday. I found that when you pull on the brake strand of the rope in addition to pulling on the pull cord, with a full (115 lbs) of force on the rope, the device will invert completely. At that point you must either completely brake with the brake strand, or *release* the brake strand and release the pull cord, otherwise the climber will fall out of control.

GO

Indeed, when fully weighted, releasing the autoblock turns the whole setup into little more than a redirect, and you must break by pulling the rope in the opposite direction (i.e. up when setup in guide mode), which is incredibly difficult if you have set your anchor high (as is preferable for actually belaying) and you are using your body weight to unlock the device in the first place.

Actually, the interesting thing was that it didn't require me "fully weighting" the release to get this to happen. Basically, once the device started to partially release, a slight tug sideways or upwards on the brake strand caused it to open/release completely. In other words, I initiated the release with the cord, but then pulling on the brake strand of the rope released the block completely. At which point the only way to get the climber back in control was to either pull *harder* on the brake strand (counter-intuitive, as this is what opened the device so much in the first place), or simultaneously fully release both the brake strand of the rope and the pull cord.

GO

(edited to add a word for clarity)

So, if I'm reading this correctly, does that mean it is best to not pull on the brake strand when lowering (just keep your hand there, but use the sling - or whatever you're using to release the "lock" - to control the release of rope when lowering the climber)?

In the extremely limited testing I did, I found that the easiest way to lower the climber was just that. If one redirects the pull cord through the anchor, one can lower the climber slowly by variably weighting the cord.

This is exactly what BD's video shows, and, I suspect, more or less exactly what the belayer who dropped the climber did.

In this instance, I think the easiest way is absolutely inferior, because if things get out of control, or the device does not behave well you are not in a good position to brake with the brake strand only.

So if I'm ever in this position, I will redirect the brake strand through the anchor above, and once the device is released, I will lower the climber using force on the brake strand only.

This, to me, seems much safer than assuming one can get the friction level of the device correct merely by varying the amount of pull on the release cord, especially considering that a little pull on the brake strand can work in concert with the pull cord to *lower* the friction.

GO

Hmmm...well, I've lowered before and haven't had a problem, but that may be my paranoia about letting it open up too much. Thus, my lowering has been slow.

I'll see if I can try that redirect with the brake strand to see how that works. it still sounds as if there's potential for not being able to control it well, though, but that just may be because my grip is weak.

If you didn't catch it, I attached a file a few pages back with a pdf of a tech tip from climbing magazine that shows a couple of ways to lower with a guide using a redirect and/or a munter hitch. Both of these options work really well and are superior, imo, to trying to control how "open" you let the device get. If you are concerned about your grip (not sure if that was sarcasm), using the munter should be just the ticket.


ClimbClimb


Mar 25, 2010, 12:38 PM
Post #109 of 360 (2659 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jan 5, 2009
Posts: 388

Re: [benmoreite] Interesting accident at the gunks on Saturday [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I still don't really understand what happened in the original accident. Does anyone have a diagram?

P.S. As for holding onto the brake side of the rope, add me to the list... I don't really care how many "automagic" belay devices there are, I want my belayer with his/her hand on the rope. Call it a pet peeve preference.


Gmburns2000


Mar 25, 2010, 12:51 PM
Post #110 of 360 (2648 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 6, 2007
Posts: 15113

Re: [benmoreite] Interesting accident at the gunks on Saturday [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

benmoreite wrote:

If you didn't catch it, I attached a file a few pages back with a pdf of a tech tip from climbing magazine that shows a couple of ways to lower with a guide using a redirect and/or a munter hitch. Both of these options work really well and are superior, imo, to trying to control how "open" you let the device get. If you are concerned about your grip (not sure if that was sarcasm), using the munter should be just the ticket.

Well, it wasn't really sarcasm but also not completely true either. I've never had a problem belaying (holding strength is not an issue really), but I have to wear gloves when reppelling because my hands get hot really quickly, and that's on a slow rap, too. So, if the rope were to feed faster than expected then I'd likely have a problem. But of course my instinct would be let go of the sling in the notch before pulling the brake strand, which seems problematic according to Gabe's thoughts.

I like the Guide, though, over the munter because of the rope twists one can get from a munter. I also like it because I often have to really think before using a munter so as to not confuse it with that other knot one uses to tie in (wow - talk about a brain freeze Crazy).

But I'll check out those links you provided up above. Thanks.


jt512


Mar 25, 2010, 12:58 PM
Post #111 of 360 (2633 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21890

Re: [IsayAutumn] Interesting accident at the gunks on Saturday [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

IsayAutumn wrote:
OK, fine. I won't post here or anywhere else saying that it is safe to temporarily take your hands off the ropes when using an autolocking device to belay a second. ...

I will most likely continue to do this (i.e., put a jacket on or snap a photo while I am belaying a second). However, you have convinced me that I will ask my partners before I do it. I climb with several people that do the same thing, so I will alert them to this ground breaking thread and hope that they too won't stop climbing with me.

IsayAutumn, subsequent to your posting the above partial rescission of your practice of belaying hands off, Benmoreite posted the following quote from the "Guide Mode" section of the ATC–Guide instruction manual:

"WARNING - Never take your braking hand off either rope under any circumstances,"

which states using the absolute terms "never...under any circumstances," is it permissible to take your brake hand off the rope.

So, having been made aware of this, do you still plan on ever taking your brake hand off the rope?

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Mar 25, 2010, 12:59 PM)


jt512


Mar 25, 2010, 1:01 PM
Post #112 of 360 (2628 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21890

Re: [Gmburns2000] Interesting accident at the gunks on Saturday [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Gmburns2000 wrote:
I like the Guide, though, over the munter because of the rope twists one can get from a munter. I also like it because I often have to really think before using a munter so as to not confuse it with that other knot one uses to tie in (wow - talk about a brain freeze Crazy).

Have I ever mentioned that you're a gumby?

Jay


Gmburns2000


Mar 25, 2010, 1:02 PM
Post #113 of 360 (2626 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 6, 2007
Posts: 15113

Re: [jt512] Interesting accident at the gunks on Saturday [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

jt512 wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
I like the Guide, though, over the munter because of the rope twists one can get from a munter. I also like it because I often have to really think before using a munter so as to not confuse it with that other knot one uses to tie in (wow - talk about a brain freeze Crazy).

Have I ever mentioned that you're a gumby?

Jay

no


davidnn5


Mar 25, 2010, 1:03 PM
Post #114 of 360 (2624 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 7, 2009
Posts: 348

Re: [ClimbClimb] Interesting accident at the gunks on Saturday [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (4 ratings)  
Can't Post

While I agree (of course) that you want people keeping a brake hand on at all times, I can understand ISayAutumn not taking advice from Jay on how to use a Guide.

... Given he's not only never used it, he's able to form opinions about those who do simply based on... what, complete conjecture?

I think that people who use Reversos are very contrary. Because it's a "Reverso". Yeah.


jt512


Mar 25, 2010, 1:06 PM
Post #115 of 360 (2619 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21890

Re: [Gmburns2000] Interesting accident at the gunks on Saturday [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Gmburns2000 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
I like the Guide, though, over the munter because of the rope twists one can get from a munter. I also like it because I often have to really think before using a munter so as to not confuse it with that other knot one uses to tie in (wow - talk about a brain freeze Crazy).

Have I ever mentioned that you're a gumby?

Jay

no

Then it was an oversight.

Jay


Gmburns2000


Mar 25, 2010, 1:08 PM
Post #116 of 360 (2613 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 6, 2007
Posts: 15113

Re: [jt512] Interesting accident at the gunks on Saturday [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

jt512 wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
I like the Guide, though, over the munter because of the rope twists one can get from a munter. I also like it because I often have to really think before using a munter so as to not confuse it with that other knot one uses to tie in (wow - talk about a brain freeze Crazy).

Have I ever mentioned that you're a gumby?

Jay

no

Then it was an oversight.

Jay

huh. funny, I thought you couldn't see over anything.


IsayAutumn


Mar 25, 2010, 1:12 PM
Post #117 of 360 (2607 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 8, 2008
Posts: 355

Re: [jt512] Interesting accident at the gunks on Saturday [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

jt512 wrote:
IsayAutumn wrote:
OK, fine. I won't post here or anywhere else saying that it is safe to temporarily take your hands off the ropes when using an autolocking device to belay a second. ...

I will most likely continue to do this (i.e., put a jacket on or snap a photo while I am belaying a second). However, you have convinced me that I will ask my partners before I do it. I climb with several people that do the same thing, so I will alert them to this ground breaking thread and hope that they too won't stop climbing with me.

IsayAutumn, subsequent to your posting the above partial rescission of your practice of belaying hands off, Benmoreite posted the following quote from the "Guide Mode" section of the ATC–Guide instruction manual:

"WARNING - Never take your braking hand off either rope under any circumstances,"

which states using the absolute terms "never...under any circumstances," is it permissible to take your brake hand off the rope.

So, having been made aware of this, do you still plan on ever taking your brake hand off the rope?

Jay

Haha. I'll bite...again.

Don't worry Jay. Sounds like we won't be climbing together anyway. You won't deck with me at the helm.

For people that actually would climb with me, the situations under which I have ever taken my hands off the rope have been limited situations, as I described earlier in the thread. I know how this forum works, so obviously I'm not going to try to too hard to change anyone's opinion. So I may as well be honest. Stirring debate and being a pariah isn't all bad.

(1) I would take my hand off the brake strand of an ATC-Guide in guide mode if I needed to get something out of my back pack. I would only do this temporarily and after I had been sure to take in as much slack as possible.

(2) I would take my hand off the brake strand of an ATC-Guide in guide mode to throw on a jacket, again after having taken in slack.

(3) I would take my hand off the brake strand of an ATC-Guide in guide mode to otherwise do necessary things that would not leave the belay device unattended for more than a few seconds.

(4) Bees.

(5) I would only do this if I could not keep a loop of slack from the brake line in my hand while I am doing any of the above-mentioned things.

However, I offer this caveat. This is obviously against what BD has put in the instruction booklet for the ATC Guide. But, I believe that this is not inherently unsafe because of the autoblocking mechanism on the ATC Guide. Sometimes you just gotta do things, and that's climbing. I would suspect that there are some other people who have used the device in this manner before. I have personally seen people doing this. I realize that doesn't mean that it is safe, but in this case I believe that it is, at least in the way I've been doing it.

There. I've been honest. Have at me.

[Edited to add another circumstance.]


(This post was edited by IsayAutumn on Mar 25, 2010, 1:22 PM)


jt512


Mar 25, 2010, 1:17 PM
Post #118 of 360 (2583 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21890

Re: [ClimbClimb] Interesting accident at the gunks on Saturday [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

ClimbClimb wrote:
I still don't really understand what happened in the original accident. Does anyone have a diagram?

For all intents and purposes there is a video of it on Black Diamond's website. It doesn't take much imagination to see how the rope could get away from the belayer, by lowering in that manner.

Moreover, I suspect that the safety of lowering with this method is rope dependent. When lowering with a grigri, it is very difficult to control the rate of descent with certain ropes; when you unlock the device it, it does so suddenly and completely, and if you're not absolutely ready for it, you can lose control of the descent. Oddly enough, you can't accurately predict, based on rope thickness, slickness, or newness, which ropes behave this way. As DavidNinny unhelpfully points out, I haven't used an ATC–Guide, but I suspect based on my experience with the Grigri, that there may be a similar phenomenon.

Jay


jt512


Mar 25, 2010, 1:21 PM
Post #119 of 360 (2572 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21890

Re: [Gmburns2000] Interesting accident at the gunks on Saturday [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Gmburns2000 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
I like the Guide, though, over the munter because of the rope twists one can get from a munter. I also like it because I often have to really think before using a munter so as to not confuse it with that other knot one uses to tie in (wow - talk about a brain freeze Crazy).

Have I ever mentioned that you're a gumby?

Jay

no

Then it was an oversight.

Jay

huh. funny, I thought you couldn't see over anything.

These days I can't see anything, period. I wouldn't have gotten scooped on the warning in the manual if BD had used a font size readable without a magnifying glass.

Jay


jt512


Mar 25, 2010, 1:23 PM
Post #120 of 360 (2570 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21890

Re: [davidnn5] Interesting accident at the gunks on Saturday [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

davidnn5 wrote:
While I agree (of course) that you want people keeping a brake hand on at all times, I can understand ISayAutumn not taking advice from Jay on how to use a Guide.

... Given he's not only never used it, he's able to form opinions about those who do simply based on... what, complete conjecture?

And yet his conjectures were correct. Hmm, whaddaya know?

Jay


jt512


Mar 25, 2010, 1:32 PM
Post #121 of 360 (2560 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21890

Re: [IsayAutumn] Interesting accident at the gunks on Saturday [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (2 ratings)  
Can't Post

IsayAutumn wrote:
For people that actually would climb with me, the situations under which I have ever taken my hands off the rope have been limited situations, as I described earlier in the thread. I know how this forum works, so obviously I'm not going to try to too hard to change anyone's opinion. So I may as well be honest. Stirring debate and being a pariah isn't all bad.

But taking your brake hand off the rope is bad. You're violating the most important rule in climbing, one that you should have been taught your very first day.

In reply to:
(1) I would take my hand off the brake strand of an ATC-Guide in guide mode if I needed to get something out of my back pack. I would only do this temporarily and after I had been sure to take in as much slack as possible.

(2) I would take my hand off the brake strand of an ATC-Guide in guide mode to throw on a jacket, again after having taken in slack.

(3) I would take my hand off the brake strand of an ATC-Guide in guide mode to otherwise do necessary things that would not leave the belay device unattended for more than a few seconds.

(4) Bees.

(5) I would only do this if I could not keep a loop of slack from the brake line in my hand while I am doing any of the above-mentioned things.

But you can do any of those things (well, I'm not sure what you mean by "bees") while keeping your brake hand on the rope. We've all eaten, drunk, and put layers of clothing on and off while belaying with a brake a hand continuously on the rope.

In reply to:
Sometimes you just gotta do things, and that's climbing.

But keeping your brake hand on the rope takes priority.

Jay


benmoreite


Mar 25, 2010, 1:34 PM
Post #122 of 360 (2553 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 17, 2006
Posts: 64

Re: [IsayAutumn] Interesting accident at the gunks on Saturday [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

IsayAutumn wrote:
Haha. I'll bite...again.

Don't worry Jay. Sounds like we won't be climbing together anyway. You won't deck with me at the helm.

For people that actually would climb with me, the situations under which I have ever taken my hands off the rope have been limited situations, as I described earlier in the thread. I know how this forum works, so obviously I'm not going to try to too hard to change anyone's opinion. So I may as well be honest. Stirring debate and being a pariah isn't all bad.

(1) I would take my hand off the brake strand of an ATC-Guide in guide mode if I needed to get something out of my back pack. I would only do this temporarily and after I had been sure to take in as much slack as possible.

(2) I would take my hand off the brake strand of an ATC-Guide in guide mode to throw on a jacket, again after having taken in slack.

(3) I would take my hand off the brake strand of an ATC-Guide in guide mode to otherwise do necessary things that would not leave the belay device unattended for more than a few seconds.

(4) Bees.

(5) I would only do this if I could not keep a loop of slack from the brake line in my hand while I am doing any of the above-mentioned things.

However, I offer this caveat. This is obviously against what BD has put in the instruction booklet for the ATC Guide. But, I believe that this is not inherently unsafe because of the autoblocking mechanism on the ATC Guide. Sometimes you just gotta do things, and that's climbing. I would suspect that there are some other people who have used the device in this manner before. I have personally seen people doing this. I realize that doesn't mean that it is safe, but in this case I believe that it is, at least in the way I've been doing it.

There. I've been honest. Have at me.

[Edited to add another circumstance.]

What you said in #5, is almost always a possibility, and is certainly preferable to just letting go. If you need to do something, and can't manage it while maintaining at least the semblance that your brake hand is on the rope, than you don't get to do that thing. Need a snack, keep your hand on the rope, or forego the drink. Bee attack, sorry deal with it. And so on, and so forth.

As for your two statements at the end, with all due respect, they're just absurd. Taking your brake hand off the rope while belaying is in no way a part of climbing. When I agree to belay someone, I am agreeing to keep my hand on the rope unless I am unconscious or dead. I would expect the same in return.


benmoreite


Mar 25, 2010, 1:35 PM
Post #123 of 360 (2551 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 17, 2006
Posts: 64

Re: [benmoreite] Interesting accident at the gunks on Saturday [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

D'oh, Jay scooped me back.


ClimbClimb


Mar 25, 2010, 1:46 PM
Post #124 of 360 (2533 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jan 5, 2009
Posts: 388

Re: [jt512] Interesting accident at the gunks on Saturday [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

jt512 wrote:
For all intents and purposes there is a video of it on Black Diamond's website. It doesn't take much imagination to see how the rope could get away from the belayer, by lowering in that manner.

Thanks Jay. Much clearer after watching it. For some reason, that setup just looks dicey to me, even though I can't explain it in words -- if I saw someone doing it, I'd ask questions. But maybe that's just prejudice from reading the accident report.

Did anyone notice several posts from 2009 below the video that, among other things, point out that a reviewer tried it and DROPPED A CLIMBER?

Hopefully that is some comfort to both of the injured parties in this accident.


(This post was edited by ClimbClimb on Mar 25, 2010, 2:04 PM)


Gmburns2000


Mar 25, 2010, 1:47 PM
Post #125 of 360 (2531 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 6, 2007
Posts: 15113

Re: [jt512] Interesting accident at the gunks on Saturday [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

jt512 wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
I like the Guide, though, over the munter because of the rope twists one can get from a munter. I also like it because I often have to really think before using a munter so as to not confuse it with that other knot one uses to tie in (wow - talk about a brain freeze Crazy).

Have I ever mentioned that you're a gumby?

Jay

no

Then it was an oversight.

Jay

huh. funny, I thought you couldn't see over anything.

These days I can't see anything, period. I wouldn't have gotten scooped on the warning in the manual if BD had used a font size readable without a magnifying glass.

Jay

Well, I'm blind as a bat, too, but I figure that my blindness will come in handy when I do crater one of these days: I figure it'll be more fun if I'm falling and can't actually see ground, thus leaving more time to say, "weeee!" as opposed to, "oh shit!"

First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ... 15 Next page Last page  View All

Forums : Climbing Information : Accident and Incident Analysis

 


Search for (options)

Log In:

Username:
Password: Remember me:

Go Register
Go Lost Password?
$87.75 (10% off)
$16.16 (10% off)
$62.06 (10% off)
$53.96 (10% off)



Follow us on Twiter Become a Fan on Facebook