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gbclimber


Mar 21, 2010, 11:21 PM
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Full strength haul loops
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I've been climbing for several years now, and I still don't know what the purpose for having a 15kn rated haul loop is for. The only thing I use mine for his for bringing up a second rope, but it's never weighted or anything while I'm climbing....so just curious, what's it for?


bhp


Mar 22, 2010, 12:10 AM
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Re: [gbclimber] Full strength haul loops [In reply to]
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I'm quite a bit heavier than my climbing partner, so when I'm leading he'll tie into a tree or something with his haul loop, so he doesn't get yanked into the wall during a fall. It allows a more natural stance than anchoring to something behind you with the belay loop.


USnavy


Mar 22, 2010, 1:29 AM
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Re: [bhp] Full strength haul loops [In reply to]
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Its for safety (at least in part). I often see climbers clip into their haul loop with webbing at the end of a cliff to stop them from falling off well belaying from the top. Many of those climbers don't have full strength haul loops. One day they will wish they did...

It may also be for reasons similar to the concept of the Safe-Tech harness. They make everything full strength so no matter what you clip into you probably wont die.

There may be additional reasons but those reasons listed above apply.


bill413


Mar 22, 2010, 6:28 AM
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Re: [USnavy] Full strength haul loops [In reply to]
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Yes, a lot of folks will anchor via the haul loop. If you do that, you obviously want one that is full strength.
I really don't like to clip in behind my back because:
1) I want things up front where I can see what's going on.
2) I want things up front so I can handle it without being a controtionist.
3) It friggin hurts when you are holding someone heavy and your harness is trying to become a straight line between that anchor behind you & the heavy weight in front.


dbogardus


Mar 22, 2010, 7:04 AM
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Re: [gbclimber] Full strength haul loops [In reply to]
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crate stacking


bill413


Mar 22, 2010, 7:28 AM
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Re: [dbogardus] Full strength haul loops [In reply to]
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dbogardus wrote:
crate stacking
d'oh!


jt512


Mar 22, 2010, 7:54 AM
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Re: [bhp] Full strength haul loops [In reply to]
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bhp wrote:
I'm quite a bit heavier than my climbing partner, so when I'm leading he'll tie into a tree or something with his haul loop, so he doesn't get yanked into the wall during a fall. It allows a more natural stance than anchoring to something behind you with the belay loop.

The purpose of a full-strength haul loop is not so that you can misuse your harness.

The full-strength haul loop is for attaching a second rope. On some routes two ropes may be required for descent, in which case the climbers' lives may depend on the second rope. Thus it needs to be clipped into something stronger than a gear loop. Maybe full strength is overkill, but we're talking a few grams.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Mar 22, 2010, 8:27 AM)


fresh


Mar 22, 2010, 8:02 AM
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Re: [gbclimber] Full strength haul loops [In reply to]
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the only reason I've ever heard for this is on page 104 in extreme alpinism by mark twight:

"Make sure the waist belt has a full-strength tie-in loop in the back. At some point you may want to clip in to the belay anchor while facing out to belay the second or to allow him to jug on a rope fixed to your harness. This situation can occur when an adequate belay anchor is absent, but your stance can support the second's weight."


acorneau


Mar 22, 2010, 8:23 AM
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Re: [fresh] Full strength haul loops [In reply to]
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fresh wrote:
"Make sure the waist belt has a full-strength tie-in loop in the back. At some point you may want to clip in to the belay anchor while facing out to belay the second or to allow him to jug on a rope fixed to your harness. This situation can occur when an adequate belay anchor is absent, but your stance can support the second's weight."


Jugging on a rope that's connected only to a rear haul loop?

F*$% that!!!


(This post was edited by acorneau on Mar 22, 2010, 8:55 AM)


chanceboarder


Mar 22, 2010, 8:48 AM
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Re: [fresh] Full strength haul loops [In reply to]
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Full strength HAUL LOOPS

not a full strength anchor loop
not a full strength belay loop
not a full strength attach the jugging line for your second to ascend and pull both your dumbasses off the mountain loop


edge


Mar 22, 2010, 8:59 AM
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Re: [chanceboarder] Full strength haul loops [In reply to]
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I highly suspect that the "full strength haul loop" designation is mostly a marketing gimmick.

I mean, what is the difference between a "full strength" and a regular haul loop, a couple extra bar tacks and perhaps 5 cents extra in webbing? Throw those in and voila!!! you can now market it as such and differentiate your harness from the bulk of other harnesses available.

Having said that, I personally will never buy a harness without a full strength haul loop. Why wouldn't I?


Gmburns2000


Mar 22, 2010, 9:16 AM
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Re: [gbclimber] Full strength haul loops [In reply to]
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I've used mine to anchor to the rock when I wanted to face away from the anchor and toward my second and / or the best place to anchor me down was behind me. I tend to use my belay loop up front 99% of the time, but some circumstances allow for easier positioning with the rear haul loop.

I can't recall a time when I've used only the rear loop, though. I'm pretty sure I've been connected up front, too, with one serving primarily as a back up.


jt512


Mar 22, 2010, 9:22 AM
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Re: [Gmburns2000] Full strength haul loops [In reply to]
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
I've used mine to anchor to the rock when I wanted to face away from the anchor and toward my second and / or the best place to anchor me down was behind me.

Another gumby heard from.

Jay


Gmburns2000


Mar 22, 2010, 9:52 AM
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Re: [jt512] Full strength haul loops [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
I've used mine to anchor to the rock when I wanted to face away from the anchor and toward my second and / or the best place to anchor me down was behind me.

Another gumby heard from.

Jay

another asshole taking things out of context by leaving certain info out to accomodate his ego.

go move a fucking couch.


nh_ranger


Mar 22, 2010, 9:54 AM
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Re: [jt512] Full strength haul loops [In reply to]
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So you're belaying a second whilst facing away from the anchor, huh?


hafilax


Mar 22, 2010, 9:59 AM
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Re: [Gmburns2000] Full strength haul loops [In reply to]
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I used the haul loop to anchor for a top rope once and only once. When the climber weighted the rope, my harness painfully squeezed my sides. Never again! Now the haul loop generally holds my shoes, water bottle or second rope.


jt512


Mar 22, 2010, 10:03 AM
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Re: [Gmburns2000] Full strength haul loops [In reply to]
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
I've used mine to anchor to the rock when I wanted to face away from the anchor and toward my second and / or the best place to anchor me down was behind me.

Another gumby heard from.

Jay

another asshole taking things out of context by leaving certain info out to accomodate his ego.

Gmburns2000 wrote:
I've used mine to anchor to the rock when I wanted to face away from the anchor and toward my second and / or the best place to anchor me down was behind me. I tend to use my belay loop up front 99% of the time, but some circumstances allow for easier positioning with the rear haul loop.

I can't recall a time when I've used only the rear loop, though. I'm pretty sure I've been connected up front, too, with one serving primarily as a back up.

Another gumby heard from.

Better?

Jay


Gmburns2000


Mar 22, 2010, 10:12 AM
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Re: [hafilax] Full strength haul loops [In reply to]
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hafilax wrote:
I used the haul loop to anchor for a top rope once and only once. When the climber weighted the rope, my harness painfully squeezed my sides. Never again! Now the haul loop generally holds my shoes, water bottle or second rope.

I've only ever used it to belay the leader on a multi-pitch route while enroute when a fall that could have brought me into the rock would have been painful. I might have done this two or three times and each time I was anchored in up front with only one sling behind me as a sort of directional. It worked quite well and was not uncomfortable at all.

Simply put, they were awkward belay stances.


Gmburns2000


Mar 22, 2010, 10:13 AM
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jt512 wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
I've used mine to anchor to the rock when I wanted to face away from the anchor and toward my second and / or the best place to anchor me down was behind me.

Another gumby heard from.

Jay

another asshole taking things out of context by leaving certain info out to accomodate his ego.

Gmburns2000 wrote:
I've used mine to anchor to the rock when I wanted to face away from the anchor and toward my second and / or the best place to anchor me down was behind me. I tend to use my belay loop up front 99% of the time, but some circumstances allow for easier positioning with the rear haul loop.

I can't recall a time when I've used only the rear loop, though. I'm pretty sure I've been connected up front, too, with one serving primarily as a back up.

Another gumby heard from.

Better?

Jay

If you say so.


Partner cracklover


Mar 22, 2010, 11:25 AM
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Re: [bhp] Full strength haul loops [In reply to]
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bhp wrote:
I'm quite a bit heavier than my climbing partner, so when I'm leading he'll tie into a tree or something with his haul loop, so he doesn't get yanked into the wall during a fall. It allows a more natural stance than anchoring to something behind you with the belay loop.

Wait 'til he has to catch a hard lead fall and cracks three ribs. Then he'll see that a "more natural stance" is a really stupid reason to misuse his harness.

How about this crazy idea: If the anchor is a ways behind you, stand slightly sideways, with the anchor rope running down over one hip/thigh? Or if the anchor is nearly below you, run the anchor strand down between your feet.

GO


Partner cracklover


Mar 22, 2010, 11:31 AM
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Re: [USnavy] Full strength haul loops [In reply to]
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USnavy wrote:
Its for safety (at least in part). I often see climbers clip into their haul loop with webbing at the end of a cliff to stop them from falling off well belaying from the top. Many of those climbers don't have full strength haul loops. One day they will wish they did...

See my last post ^^^

Bad idea with or without a full-strenghth haul loop. Although at least they'll only be in pain, rather than actually injured, since the forces generated in a TR fall aren't bad.

In reply to:
It may also be for reasons similar to the concept of the Safe-Tech harness. They make everything full strength so no matter what you clip into you probably wont die.

The only positive I see about those is that you're guaranteed not to wind up with one of those harnesses like one or two of the BD ones back in the day where the gear loops were so flimsy that a cam catching could rip it out, sending a full gear loop worth of stuff cascading down into the void. Aside from that, they seem heavy and dumb to me, but if you like it, fine for you.

In reply to:
There may be additional reasons but those reasons listed above apply.

I didn't see any good reasons listed above.

GO


kachoong


Mar 22, 2010, 2:03 PM
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Re: [gbclimber] Full strength haul loops [In reply to]
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gbclimber wrote:
I've been climbing for several years now, and I still don't know what the purpose for having a 15kn rated haul loop is for. The only thing I use mine for his for bringing up a second rope, but it's never weighted or anything while I'm climbing....so just curious, what's it for?

Five good uses:

1) To descend Hoover Dam using the Aussie technique.
2) In case you put your harness on backwards you don't have to waste time changing it.
3) If you pass out or die they use it to retrieve your body.
4) Tie your crag dog to in the event you need to guide him/her over a mountain pass.
5) To clip a 3000 lb chalk bag to. Just don't jiggle too much or it might break it!


bennydh


Mar 22, 2010, 3:17 PM
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Re: [kachoong] Full strength haul loops [In reply to]
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I've attached a climber who just followed a climb to my rear haul loop, because the area behind me had more room, and the master point of my anchor was a bit crowded. Its a secure point for someone to have a good level of security while transitioning to their own anchor points.

Its also good if you are attaching precious heavy cargo, that could snag and break older/thinner gear loops. I.E: trailing a second rope that is 70 meters, while there is rope drag or objects could get snagged.

Jay already mentioned the latter, so I guess that makes two really good uses for a full strength haul loop.


shimanilami


Mar 22, 2010, 4:30 PM
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It all began innocently enough.

"I'll send the peeyotch with both hands tied behind my back."

"And I'll belay that peeyotch with both hands tied behind my back."

"Word."

"Yo."

And the rest is history.


bennydh


Mar 22, 2010, 4:45 PM
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Perhaps it also allows for more mobility, and greater security, whilst clucking?


davidnn5


Mar 22, 2010, 5:47 PM
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Re: [kachoong] Full strength haul loops [In reply to]
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Kachoong

You had me until you put pounds into the list. Fight the madness! Down with imperial measures!

Also, you didn't have barbecues or beer in the list. Surely that's a mistake.


TarHeelEMT


Mar 23, 2010, 10:39 PM
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Re: [cracklover] Full strength haul loops [In reply to]
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cracklover wrote:
bhp wrote:
I'm quite a bit heavier than my climbing partner, so when I'm leading he'll tie into a tree or something with his haul loop, so he doesn't get yanked into the wall during a fall. It allows a more natural stance than anchoring to something behind you with the belay loop.

Wait 'til he has to catch a hard lead fall and cracks three ribs. Then he'll see that a "more natural stance" is a really stupid reason to misuse his harness.


How about this crazy idea: If the anchor is a ways behind you, stand slightly sideways, with the anchor rope running down over one hip/thigh? Or if the anchor is nearly below you, run the anchor strand down between your feet.

GO


How does this lead to broken ribs? I'm having a hard time picturing being secured to a tree via haul loop could end that way. Has this happened to you?


Partner cracklover


Mar 24, 2010, 9:48 AM
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TarHeelEMT wrote:
cracklover wrote:
bhp wrote:
I'm quite a bit heavier than my climbing partner, so when I'm leading he'll tie into a tree or something with his haul loop, so he doesn't get yanked into the wall during a fall. It allows a more natural stance than anchoring to something behind you with the belay loop.

Wait 'til he has to catch a hard lead fall and cracks three ribs. Then he'll see that a "more natural stance" is a really stupid reason to misuse his harness.


How about this crazy idea: If the anchor is a ways behind you, stand slightly sideways, with the anchor rope running down over one hip/thigh? Or if the anchor is nearly below you, run the anchor strand down between your feet.

GO


How does this lead to broken ribs? I'm having a hard time picturing being secured to a tree via haul loop could end that way. Has this happened to you?

Hasn't happened to me, no. But I have had friends crack ribs (it takes surprisingly little) and I know what happens when you secure a harness from behind.

Picture this: rope or sling to tree behind you from haul loop is tight, and you catch a hard lead fall. What happens?

You get a a few kN of force on the front of your harness pulling forward and up. Since the tree and sling behind you can't budge, you have an equal amount of force from behind you. Now your harness is trying to go from an oval with you in the middle to a straight line, and the only thing that can give is - you (humans are pretty squishy compared to the gear).

Make sense?

GO


Partner cracklover


Mar 24, 2010, 9:52 AM
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Just to be clear about the alternative (which is actually the standard): Both the anchor and the lead line are secured to your belay loop. Then you stand somewhat sideways, and a hard fall simply pulls your belay loop in two directions. This will not hurt at all!

GO


TarHeelEMT


Mar 24, 2010, 10:34 AM
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cracklover wrote:
TarHeelEMT wrote:
cracklover wrote:
bhp wrote:
I'm quite a bit heavier than my climbing partner, so when I'm leading he'll tie into a tree or something with his haul loop, so he doesn't get yanked into the wall during a fall. It allows a more natural stance than anchoring to something behind you with the belay loop.

Wait 'til he has to catch a hard lead fall and cracks three ribs. Then he'll see that a "more natural stance" is a really stupid reason to misuse his harness.


How about this crazy idea: If the anchor is a ways behind you, stand slightly sideways, with the anchor rope running down over one hip/thigh? Or if the anchor is nearly below you, run the anchor strand down between your feet.

GO


How does this lead to broken ribs? I'm having a hard time picturing being secured to a tree via haul loop could end that way. Has this happened to you?

Hasn't happened to me, no. But I have had friends crack ribs (it takes surprisingly little) and I know what happens when you secure a harness from behind.

Picture this: rope or sling to tree behind you from haul loop is tight, and you catch a hard lead fall. What happens?

You get a a few kN of force on the front of your harness pulling forward and up. Since the tree and sling behind you can't budge, you have an equal amount of force from behind you. Now your harness is trying to go from an oval with you in the middle to a straight line, and the only thing that can give is - you (humans are pretty squishy compared to the gear).

Make sense?

GO

That much all makes sense, and I can't imagine it's a comfortable situation to be in. I've seen lots of people clipping in to the haul loop for this purpose, but never seen a lead fall in this scenario, so the degree of suffering is something of an abstraction to me.

Mostly I was curious about the specifics of the ribs being a site of serious injury in this situation. I was thinking abdominal injury would be all - the ribs seem a little high.


(This post was edited by TarHeelEMT on Mar 24, 2010, 10:36 AM)


petsfed


Mar 24, 2010, 11:31 AM
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The strain on the muscles will do it. Corsets still crack ribs even though they are meant to suck in around the fleshy part.


altelis


Mar 24, 2010, 3:28 PM
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petsfed wrote:
The strain on the muscles will do it. Corsets still crack ribs even though they are meant to suck in around the fleshy part.

i assume with all the talk about sucking and fleshy parts this is where the conversation shifts to your mom? Angelic


harpo_the_climber


Mar 25, 2010, 8:59 PM
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I checked with Arcteryx. On my X-350a I have a plastic d ring instead of a haul loop. They don't even reccomend bringing up a rope clipped to it.


c_kryll


May 13, 2010, 6:03 AM
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I work in the Challenge Course Industry and there is a High Rope activity called the 'Swing Shot' that utilizes the rear haul loop. Essentially the participant is attached to the belay loop in front to a suspended vertical cable, then the pull line/release is attached at the back of their harness. They are then hauled into the air in an arc and released, creating a giant swing. Harness manufactures cater to more then just Rock Climbers...;)


btg


May 13, 2010, 6:30 AM
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Only time I ever saw someone anchor in using their haul loop their leader took a fall and crotched himself on the rope (anchor wasn't exactly positioned right). Needless to say I popped off my route and laughed liked I used to when watching America's Funniest Home Videos.


ClimbClimb


May 16, 2010, 12:55 PM
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Re: [c_kryll] Full strength haul loops [In reply to]
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c_kryll wrote:
I work in the Challenge Course Industry and there is a High Rope activity called the 'Swing Shot' that utilizes the rear haul loop. Essentially the participant is attached to the belay loop in front to a suspended vertical cable, then the pull line/release is attached at the back of their harness. They are then hauled into the air in an arc and released, creating a giant swing. Harness manufactures cater to more then just Rock Climbers...;)

I knew it. Every time there's some weird feature on a piece of climbing gear, it turns out it's there for some bizarre sexual purpose. (By the way, this explains a lot about GriGris).

Oh, and, your post is worthless without pics.


snoboy


May 16, 2010, 7:20 PM
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Re: [ClimbClimb] Full strength haul loops [In reply to]
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I'd like to see a video demonstration of how to escape a loaded belay while anchored in to the back of your harness, and belaying off the front. :D


bill413


May 17, 2010, 6:30 AM
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Re: [snoboy] Full strength haul loops [In reply to]
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snoboy wrote:
I'd like to see a video demonstration of how to escape a loaded belay while anchored in to the back of your harness, and belaying off the front. :D

It's doable. Practice tying your prussiks one-handed.


patto


May 17, 2010, 7:19 AM
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Re: [bill413] Full strength haul loops [In reply to]
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bill413 wrote:
snoboy wrote:
I'd like to see a video demonstration of how to escape a loaded belay while anchored in to the back of your harness, and belaying off the front. :D

It's doable. Practice tying your prussiks one-handed.

Why would you need to tie prussike with only one hand when you have two hands?


bill413


May 17, 2010, 7:21 AM
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Re: [patto] Full strength haul loops [In reply to]
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patto wrote:
bill413 wrote:
snoboy wrote:
I'd like to see a video demonstration of how to escape a loaded belay while anchored in to the back of your harness, and belaying off the front. :D

It's doable. Practice tying your prussiks one-handed.

Why would you need to tie prussike with only one hand when you have two hands?

'Cause it's more awkward to use 2 to tie the prussik on the anchor strand behind you than doing it one handed.


patto


May 17, 2010, 8:02 AM
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Re: [bill413] Full strength haul loops [In reply to]
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bill413 wrote:
patto wrote:
bill413 wrote:
snoboy wrote:
I'd like to see a video demonstration of how to escape a loaded belay while anchored in to the back of your harness, and belaying off the front. :D

It's doable. Practice tying your prussiks one-handed.

Why would you need to tie prussike with only one hand when you have two hands?

'Cause it's more awkward to use 2 to tie the prussik on the anchor strand behind you than doing it one handed.

While there are a thousand ways to skin this cat what your suggesting doesn't really come in as one of the easy and obvious ways.
1. Secure belay device to go hands free. (tie backup)
2. Tighten prussik to climber side rope, and attach to anchor.
3. Release belay device and let slack out until anchor is weighted.
4. Remove belay and escape!


bill413


May 17, 2010, 8:11 AM
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Re: [patto] Full strength haul loops [In reply to]
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patto wrote:
bill413 wrote:
patto wrote:
bill413 wrote:
snoboy wrote:
I'd like to see a video demonstration of how to escape a loaded belay while anchored in to the back of your harness, and belaying off the front. :D

It's doable. Practice tying your prussiks one-handed.

Why would you need to tie prussike with only one hand when you have two hands?

'Cause it's more awkward to use 2 to tie the prussik on the anchor strand behind you than doing it one handed.

While there are a thousand ways to skin this cat what your suggesting doesn't really come in as one of the easy and obvious ways.
1. Secure belay device to go hands free. (tie backup)
2. Tighten prussik to climber side rope, and attach to anchor.
3. Release belay device and let slack out until anchor is weighted.
4. Remove belay and escape!

It's the "attach to anchor" part that has you working behind your back.


billcoe_


May 17, 2010, 2:44 PM
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Re: [gbclimber] Full strength haul loops [In reply to]
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gbclimber wrote:
I've been climbing for several years now, and I still don't know what the purpose for having a 15kn rated haul loop is for. The only thing I use mine for his for bringing up a second rope, but it's never weighted or anything while I'm climbing....so just curious, what's it for?
http://tinyurl.com/2dek8wf
Click that link and see if this furthers your understanding of that question. Understand that the 3 climbers involved had well over 100 year of climbing experience between them.


hafilax


May 17, 2010, 3:45 PM
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Re: [billcoe_] Full strength haul loops [In reply to]
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billcoe_ wrote:
gbclimber wrote:
I've been climbing for several years now, and I still don't know what the purpose for having a 15kn rated haul loop is for. The only thing I use mine for his for bringing up a second rope, but it's never weighted or anything while I'm climbing....so just curious, what's it for?
http://tinyurl.com/2dek8wf
Click that link and see if this furthers your understanding of that question. Understand that the 3 climbers involved had well over 100 year of climbing experience between them.
That is the weakest use of LMGTFY I have ever seen.Unimpressed


ClimbClimb


May 18, 2010, 1:00 PM
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Re: [billcoe_] Full strength haul loops [In reply to]
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billcoe_ wrote:
http://tinyurl.com/2dek8wf
Click that link and see if this furthers your understanding of that question. Understand that the 3 climbers involved had well over 100 year of climbing experience between them.

It doesn't. What does "haul loop" vs. "belay loop" anchor tie-in have to do with this terrible incident from last year? EIther you're tied in when lowering or you're not.


csproul


May 18, 2010, 1:25 PM
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Re: [ClimbClimb] Full strength haul loops [In reply to]
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He and others have been saved by having the trail rope tied into a full strength haul loop when all else has failed. Yes, they all should have been tied in by other means. But when the primary rope didn't save them (or wasn't being properly used), it was the fact that the trailing rope was attached to a full strength haul loop that saved their ass. In such a circumstance, if the trailing rope had been attached to a gear loop or other non-rated loop, they would have died. Al's accident was not the only one in which I have heard this happen. I don't use the haul line to anchor with, bu when I trail a rope, I make sure it is attached to something that can take a fall.


tradmania


May 18, 2010, 5:06 PM
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Re: [csproul] Full strength haul loops [In reply to]
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As I interpret it, this is not an argument for full strength haul-loops, it is a justification after the fact. I fail to see anything in the accident report that defends the use of full strength haul-loops, or promotes their necessity. Yes it saved him, but human error was the cause of the accident. Or have I just missed something here?

Background info: 90% of my climbing (in Australia and the UK) has always been on half-ropes. I have only used a tag-line once in 10 years of climbing.


csproul


May 18, 2010, 6:06 PM
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Re: [tradmania] Full strength haul loops [In reply to]
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Argument/justification...you can call it whatever you want, it's just semantics. Regardless of the cause of the accident(s), the fact remains that climbers lives have been saved by full strength haul loops. I can see it being even more of an issue with aid climbers, who almost always climb with a haul line, and where masses of gear and ropes possibly lead to confusion. It may not be a matter of life and death, but losing a haul line from a broken gear loop would be terribly inconvenient. The way I see it, if you're going to put a loop on the back of you harness, you might as well make it full strength.


summerprophet


May 18, 2010, 6:16 PM
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Re: [gbclimber] Full strength haul loops [In reply to]
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Wow there is a lot of assholes responding here.

The full strength haul loop is for bringing up a haul line. While indeed, full strength may be a bit of overkill, it was not that long ago, that gear loops were just stitched and broke around 10 - 20 lbs. In the event your rope gets snagged, or some dumbass grabs it, the full strength loop offers a whole lot more reliability than a few stitches.

Other uses include a clip in point for sleeping on a portaledge (particularly for stomach sleepers), a point to drag a sled (like the approach to Denali), and it also has some rescue purposes (like guiding longline cables in a helicopter, or belayed from rear while waist deep in swiftwater)


ClimbClimb


May 18, 2010, 6:23 PM
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Re: [summerprophet] Full strength haul loops [In reply to]
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1. I am a supporter, intuitively, of having full-strength haul-loops on one's harness. (I am pretty sure the one on mine is).

2. csproul's justification was weak.

3. the reaons you cite make sense and bring up some applications that I hadn't thought of. thank you.


tradmania


May 18, 2010, 6:30 PM
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Re: [summerprophet] Full strength haul loops [In reply to]
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Now these are good reasons, and I can see why having a full strength haul-loop would be a benefit in these scenarios. But if you are trad climbing with a lead rope, and hauling a tag line, why not just climb with double ropes? It gives you far more options with only minimal weight gain.


(This post was edited by tradmania on May 18, 2010, 6:33 PM)


altelis


May 18, 2010, 7:25 PM
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Re: [summerprophet] Full strength haul loops [In reply to]
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I'm no whitewater expert, in fact it scares the crap out of me. I'm not contradicting just asking:

It was my understanding that during whitewater rescue you were only to be clipped into points that could be released quickly. Isn't that the whole point of the rescue PFD's- they have the metal ring that can be quickly freed in case the rope goes from friend to pulling-me-under-water?


socalclimber


May 18, 2010, 8:26 PM
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Re: [cracklover] Full strength haul loops [In reply to]
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cracklover wrote:

Bad idea with or without a full-strenghth haul loop. Although at least they'll only be in pain, rather than actually injured, since the forces generated in a TR fall aren't bad.

Unless you're being belayed by some of the people on this site...


summerprophet


May 19, 2010, 7:16 AM
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Re: [tradmania] Full strength haul loops [In reply to]
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Tradmania,
Haul lines are functionally different than double rope climbing.
A haul line is for hauling up a backpack, or haulbag upon completion of the pitch. If you were to use double rope techniques, the second rope would be clipped in, and the second would have to free the haulbag from every piece.

Altelis
Firstly, I am not a swiftwater guy, I am a high angle, and mountain rescue person, but we operate over water.
The scenario described would have a belayer on shore connected to the rear haul loop. The idea is to have ropes and equipment away from the front, where hopefully you will be grabbing a victom, ,or throwing a tow line. As the belay anchor acts as a radius point, you SHOULD be swung back to the shore if you loose your footing. That being said, with ANY belay involving unknown or changing forces, a knife is kept at the ready to cut the belay loose.

NOTE: before a knife is considered, a full analysis of the result is used, before anybody is on the system. This is part of the critical analysis pre-planning stage.


(This post was edited by summerprophet on May 19, 2010, 7:16 AM)


altelis


May 19, 2010, 8:51 PM
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Re: [summerprophet] Full strength haul loops [In reply to]
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AHHHH, for a person doing rescue FROM THE SHORE!

That makes so much more sense! All my raft guide/swift water rescue friends have PFD's that look like this:


That's connected to a quick-release system in the front. But they are working from in the water/boat, NOT from shore. Cheers, that makes sense!


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