Obviously taking a factor two fall on a sling is extremely serious so how do you fix this issue when you still need the daisys to assist in bounce testing, resting, retrieval of an aider that is attached to a piece that blows, ect?

Assuming you are not high stepping... You'll probably be standing in the 3rd step of your aiders on your lower piece. You place your next piece as high as you can reach and clip your second daisy and aider.

Most likely the last step or second to last step of your second aider will match up with where you are currently standing on your lower aider.

Bounce test from this current position. If your piece holds, move your weight onto the top piece, unclip your aider from the lower piece, and clip the rope to the lower piece.

If the top piece blows, you are still standing on the lower. No fall whatsoever. If your lower piece blows, the rope clipped below will catch you with a standard lead fall.

When high stepping or top stepping... you'll want to clip your aider/daisy to the next piece as usual, but also clip the rope to your current piece, and bounce test from the lowest possible step on the second aider. Since you will be above your current piece the clipping of the rope is not going to needlessly extend a fall if the piece you're currently on blows. (ie: don't clip the rope to your current piece if not top stepping, it will just extend your fall if that piece blows). Preclipping when top stepping will speed up the transition process.

It's going to be harder to do a full bounce while still keeping poised on the lower aider but basically it's a similar procedure as before. After bounce testing, tighten your tether to the top piece and ease your weight onto it if it's a dicey placement. Once your weight is on, as quick as you can, untether from the lower piece, and now you've removed the ff2 potential. While transferring weight to the top piece, keep one foot on the lower aider... so if the top piece blows, you're still standing on the lower piece... no ff2.

US Navy, I give you a failing grade on understanding the basic high school physics of this situation.
Due to the fact that the falling object (climber) is only falling maybe a meter, taking much less than a second to do so, (let's say about a quarter of a second as a rough guess, although we could get all fancy and calculate it) there is no way in hell that 24KN can be developed in this scenario, as you stated above someplace. Let's put our thinking caps on. 24 KN is what you can generate when you're flying 30 or 40 feet, and then coming to an abrupt stop in a FF2 fall.
sheesh.

The results of the sling drops were startling. Brand-new, 22-inch-long 8mm, sewn spectra runners, CEN rated to nearly 5,000 pounds, broke at the end of their 44-inch fall (a grim testament to the forces you can achieve when you fall directly onto a sling). Interestingly, nylon runners, even old faded ones scrounged off desert towers, subjected to the same test did not break, although the shock loads were still over two tons. Attribute the nylon slings’ durability to the material itself. Nylon, even when it is woven into a static weave, such as that in a runner, stretches some. Spectra, meanwhile, is like steel and does not stretch—it breaks.

So a four-foot FF2 fall can certainly break a high-strength, low-stretch sling. Want to read more?

http://www.swaygogear.com/...icfalls/default.html

If you suspect your newly placed piece is dicey, then clip the rope through the piece you're standing on and unclip your daisy from the aider.... I never use it unless I think my new piece is dicey.

3.) move onto the top piece and reach down and unclip your lower aider and clip the rope into the lower piece of gear.

...if you do it like this your chance of falling onto a daisy chain is very slight....

...especially on easy aid with good gear.

MS1, you left out this important part from the R&I article:

"For the sling and daisy chain drops, a 165-pound weight volunteered to take my place. The caveat to comparing one to the other is the human body is gelatinous and absorbs energy. A climbing harness also has some load-absorbing capacity. Replacing the body in a harness with a dead weight will increase the forces in any drop test. Nevertheless, it gives indicates how equipment when pushed to its limits will behave in the real world."

In other words, their test did NOT replicate what would happen to a real climber in a harness.

It's the steps I have put in bold that I am referring to. Once you fully shift your weight to the top piece you can no longer use the lower aider to catch you if the top piece pulls as you’re no longer standing on it.

No. You've got to clip the rope and remove your daisy before you move to the new piece. Otherwise, if the new piece blows, then you'll fall on your daisy.

I may have figured out the answer to my own question. When I am aiding I always have my fifi hook (biner actually) clipped straight into the cam / nut and I am either top stepping or in the third step (on a regular aider). So when I shift my weight over onto the high piece, I disconnect the lower aider before I disconnect my fifi hook that way if the piece blows I only fall a few inches on the hook instead of three feet onto the daisy chain. But that requires hooking into the cam versus the biner attached to the daisy and aider which is a bit more work.

Ignore everything in the above posts. They don't know what they're talking about. Here's the straight dope.

If you suspect your newly placed piece is dicey, then clip the rope through the piece you're standing on and unclip your daisy from the aider. Thus, if you stand up on the new piece and it blows, then the rope - not your daisy - will catch you. And because you clipped the rope through the previous piece, your aiders are secured. Just don't forget to grab your aiders as you continue up.

This sequence is a hassle because it adds an extra step - i.e. you have to unclip the daisy first, and then retrieve your aider second. I never use it unless I think my new piece is dicey.

How exactly do you unclip your daisy while top stepping?

No. You've got to clip the rope and remove your daisy before you move to the new piece. Otherwise, if the new piece blows, then you'll fall on your daisy.

No, but it provided good evidence that very high forces can be generated in a short fall onto a very-low-stretch sling.

But my point was only that graniteboy was very wrong: a short FF2 onto low-stretch tethers can generate much higher forces than a long FF2 onto a dynamic climbing rope.

Anyway, the issue isn't just the risk that you might break a daisy chain (you are, after all, still attached to a rope). Even if the daisy will hold, you might want to spare your kidneys the special feeling of falling onto one.

You just made that up. Graniteboy never said anything of the sort. What he said was that a climber falling three feet onto a daisy isn't going to generate 24 kN. Those test results you linked don't come anywhere close to refuting that.

Due to the fact that the falling object (climber) is only falling maybe a meter, taking much less than a second to do so, (let's say about a quarter of a second as a rough guess, although we could get all fancy and calculate it) there is no way in hell that 24KN can be developed in this scenario, as you stated above someplace. Let's put our thinking caps on. 24 KN is what you can generate when you're flying 30 or 40 feet, and then coming to an abrupt stop in a FF2 fall.

So, this is the GB post I was criticizing, and which you are now defending:


To be clear: This is the argument you want to keep siding with? He thinks that 24KN could be developed in a FF2 fall onto dynamic climbing rope, but not onto a static tether. Whether it is 24KN or only 15KN once you factor in a squishy body is beside the point; the problem is that he was asserting that the length of the fall is the only relevant variable.

Yes, I agree with him that a climber taking a three foot daisy fall will not generate 24 kN.

Where does he mention a dynamic rope? He doesn't. You're reading that into it.

Length of fall does matter in this case because in addition to the low-stretch sling you have a fixed higher-stretch component in the system as well. If you took a 30 foot FF2 onto static webbing it would be quite different than a two inch FF2, don't you think?

it is obvious that you are just trolling at this point.

Every post is a troll, dumbass.

I wish I could really claim that I was trolling since it seems I got a bite from a rather large, errr, FISH. A rare breaching of The Russelford would surely be a prize for a dedicated troll, would it not?


(troll)
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24kN, huh? <- (troll)

^
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(troll)

Ignore everything in the above posts. They don't know what they're talking about. Here's the straight dope.

If you suspect your newly placed piece is dicey, then clip the rope through the piece you're standing on and unclip your daisy from the aider. Thus, if you stand up on the new piece and it blows, then the rope - not your daisy - will catch you. And because you clipped the rope through the previous piece, your aiders are secured. Just don't forget to grab your aiders as you continue up.

This sequence is a hassle because it adds an extra step - i.e. you have to unclip the daisy first, and then retrieve your aider second. I never use it unless I think my new piece is dicey.