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glue in pull test, weird results??
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shu2kill


Apr 15, 2010, 7:17 AM
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glue in pull test, weird results??
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well, a friend showed up the day before yesterday at my house with some glue in anchors he wanted to pull test. so we went to a huge boulder (not climbable, just a big rock) near my home, and drilled a 1/2" hole. we had never installed glue ins before, so we did as the instructions said. we drilled a 1/2" hole to install a 3/8" bolt (it was actually 10 mm). then cleaned the hole very well, poured in the glue, and inserted the bolt as if we were screwing it in. the bolt looked like a 100 mm piece of threaded rod, but wa sold as "glue in anchor" for about $1.50 each. then we let it rest for 24 hours.

so yesterday, we went there with my jeep, which has a Warn M8000 winch rated @ 8000 lbs, and weights a little more than 2 tons. we installed a Fixe hanger rated @ 22 kn, and then we oriented the jeep to pull in almost perfect tension, straight out. as i began pulling, the jeep's suspension lowered a lot. then, the jeep began pulling forward, even with the brake pedal completely at the bottom. after the jeep was pulled about 4 feet, i decided it was enough for my jeep, i was actually afraid of messing with the brakes or something. so i stopped the winch. but my friends told me to pull a little more. so i did, and all of a sudden something let go. i was sure the bolt had unglued and was out of the stone. but as i was exiting the jeep, someone yelled "come and see, we broke the hanger!!"

i have read and heard a lot of concern about quality of the rock, quality of the bolts, proper installation, etc. it seems to me that the risk is if you mess with the installation of a good bolt, maybe braking the stone around it, or braking the bolt by overtorque. or, if you install a bad bolt in a good location and with good technique. however i had never heard nor read anything where they mention possibly braking a hanger while the bolt remains intact.


and, the bolt and glue were purchased locally from a hardware store. the glue is like $25 and the threaded rod is like $1.50. yesterday morning my friend got a 1 meter rod of 3/8 SS for $5. so yesterday after braking the hanger, we did another hole and glued a 100 mm piece of that SS. today we are going to pull it to see how it holds...

so, what do you think?? why did the 1 ton glue held while the 22 kn (about 2.2 ton) hanger broke??

heres the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njSE3GSKgwc&fmt=18

EDIT TO ADD: we live in Mexico, and we found the materials locally. and, english is my second language, so if anything is confusing or something, let me know and ill try to rephrase it or explain it better...


(This post was edited by shu2kill on Apr 15, 2010, 7:19 AM)


roughster


Apr 15, 2010, 7:48 AM
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Not surprised. Bolts set correctly, whether mechanical or chemical, are almost never the "weak link". Even shitty rock is a lot stronger than most people realize.

I purposely tried to pull a bolt that I felt sucked and was a spinner just to see how much it would take. I had a funkness and a crowbar with me. After about 2 hours of non-stop work I gave up and undid the hanger and pounded the bolt in.

This was at an area that most people feel the rock is about as chossy as can be and still be climbable aka soft volcanic tuff.


shu2kill


Apr 15, 2010, 7:53 AM
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roughster wrote:
Not surprised. Bolts set correctly, whether mechanical or chemical, are almost never the "weak link". Even shitty rock is a lot stronger than most people realize.

I purposely tried to pull a bolt that I felt sucked and was a spinner just to see how much it would take. I had a funkness and a crowbar with me. After about 2 hours of non-stop work I gave up and undid the hanger and pounded the bolt in.

This was at an area that most people feel the rock is about as chossy as can be and still be climbable aka soft volcanic tuff.

well, we were surprised because this is the first chemical anchor we ever place. besides, the materials are from a local hardware store, and i have read a lot of comments that say "dont buy from your local home depot". and, the glue is rated at only 1 ton....


shockabuku


Apr 15, 2010, 8:47 AM
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I suspect the hanger broke because you torqued it in a way that it's probably not designed to hold a load.




shu2kill


Apr 15, 2010, 8:57 AM
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well, we pulled almost straight out, trying to extract the bolt, not shear it.

so do you suggest we try to shear the bolt instead??


shoo


Apr 15, 2010, 9:00 AM
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shu2kill wrote:
well, we pulled almost straight out, trying to extract the bolt, not shear it.

so do you suggest we try to shear the bolt instead??

Yes.


dingus


Apr 15, 2010, 9:02 AM
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shu2kill wrote:
well, we pulled almost straight out, trying to extract the bolt, not shear it.

so do you suggest we try to shear the bolt instead??

You may end up with your Jeep hanging on the side of a cliff!

Ever see the Gods They Must Be Crazy?

A jeep ends up in a tree, hoisted by its own petard (or winch!)

You fellers place good bolt!

DMT


dingus


Apr 15, 2010, 9:05 AM
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BTW, the proscription against hardware store hardware comes in two forms:

1. A lot of US hardware stores simply don't sell the bolts we climbers tend to use. They sell bolts that merely LOOK like them and many folks cannot easily tell them apart.

2. The quality control of overseas hardware mfgs is suspect, to say the least. This is the sort of hardware we see in Home Depot here, and Lowes.

I still use some of it; chains, quick links, etc.

But I am reckless (and cheap)! I get my bolts from a fastener distributor (torque, not glue-in)

DMT


shu2kill


Apr 15, 2010, 9:06 AM
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shoo wrote:
shu2kill wrote:
well, we pulled almost straight out, trying to extract the bolt, not shear it.

so do you suggest we try to shear the bolt instead??

Yes.

ok, today we will try that with the same bolt we already used and with the stainless one we glued yesterday..


shu2kill


Apr 15, 2010, 9:09 AM
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dingus wrote:

You may end up with your Jeep hanging on the side of a cliff!

Ever see the Gods They Must Be Crazy?

A jeep ends up in a tree, hoisted by its own petard (or winch!)

You fellers place good bolt!

DMT

hahaha. i have seen jeeps lifted by their own winches. since the jeep weights 2 tons and the winchs capacity is almost 4, its easy to do that...

so, would you take a 15 feet leader fall on the bolt im talking about???


dingus


Apr 15, 2010, 9:11 AM
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shu2kill wrote:
dingus wrote:

You may end up with your Jeep hanging on the side of a cliff!

Ever see the Gods They Must Be Crazy?

A jeep ends up in a tree, hoisted by its own petard (or winch!)

You fellers place good bolt!

DMT

hahaha. i have seen jeeps lifted by their own winches. since the jeep weights 2 tons and the winchs capacity is almost 4, its easy to do that...

so, would you take a 15 feet leader fall on the bolt im talking about???

Not in a jeep I wouldn't!!!11111

DMT


shu2kill


Apr 15, 2010, 9:12 AM
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dingus wrote:
BTW, the proscription against hardware store hardware comes in two forms:

1. A lot of US hardware stores simply don't sell the bolts we climbers tend to use. They sell bolts that merely LOOK like them and many folks cannot easily tell them apart.

2. The quality control of overseas hardware mfgs is suspect, to say the least. This is the sort of hardware we see in Home Depot here, and Lowes.

I still use some of it; chains, quick links, etc.

But I am reckless (and cheap)! I get my bolts from a fastener distributor (torque, not glue-in)

DMT

i have seen those fastener at home depot (yes, we have that store here in Mexico too) and they look more or less the same, but the specs are very different. so i wouldnt use those. however, as you say, we do use chain and quicklinks from any hardware store.

and, what fastener distributor do you use?? have you tried www.sleeve-type-anchors.com ??


dingus


Apr 15, 2010, 9:28 AM
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Re: [dingus] glue in pull test, weird results?? [In reply to]
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http://www.concretefasteners.com/

They provide spec sheets, etc. They have install guides and even how to videos.

DMT


(This post was edited by dingus on Apr 15, 2010, 9:28 AM)


climbryn


Apr 15, 2010, 9:38 AM
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Found this yesturday, seems to have really good prices on bulk orders and only carries equipment used for climbing.

http://renobclimbing.com/


(This post was edited by climbryn on Apr 15, 2010, 10:02 AM)


ryanb


Apr 15, 2010, 9:58 AM
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I think glue is "rated" per contact area... probably something like 1 ton per square inch or something.

Threaded rod comes in different grades which you should be aware of as well.


shu2kill


Apr 15, 2010, 10:16 AM
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dingus wrote:
http://www.concretefasteners.com/

They provide spec sheets, etc. They have install guides and even how to videos.

DMT

that page looks really similar to this one:

http://www.confast.com/

they also provide spec sheets, and in fact the part numbers are the same. i just bought 125 sleeve bolts in 1/2" x 3" and 25 in 1/2" x 4" for the top anchors from them. the price is also exactly the same....


shu2kill


Apr 15, 2010, 10:20 AM
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ryanb wrote:
I think glue is "rated" per contact area... probably something like 1 ton per square inch or something.

Threaded rod comes in different grades which you should be aware of as well.

the one we used is grade 5. but the stainless we placed yesterday, they dont have grade, so im not sure what it is. we will see today how it holds...


JimTitt


Apr 15, 2010, 11:36 PM
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We would expect virtually any hanger to break before the bolt in the circumstances you describe. With a 10mm threaded rod of reasonable quality you would be getting a failure at around 35-38kN and most hangers let go before this especially in the axial pull as they only require 15kN for EN959.
You don´t say what glue you used (technically this isn´t a glue but we all call it that) but for cheapo polyester you are looking at 5N/mm˛ and for an epoxy acrylate 10-12N/mm˛. Pure epoxy gets up to ca.15N/mm˛. 10mm dia = 31.42mm circumference X 100m depth = 3142mm˛ X 8N/mm˛ (vinylester for example) gives a pull-out resistance of 25kN and for something like Hilti Hit 500 you can double that.
You can read all about the theory and everything else concerning bolts on my useful website! www.bolt-products.com.


dingus


Apr 16, 2010, 5:08 AM
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Jim that site of yourn is a treasure chest of information. THANKS! I don't have a need for glue-ins but if I did I'd be knocking at your door, dude. And despite not needing glue ins I book marked it so I could go back and study all the OTHER information you make available.

Very impressed. Thanks again!

DMT


shu2kill


Apr 16, 2010, 6:41 AM
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JimTitt wrote:
We would expect virtually any hanger to break before the bolt in the circumstances you describe. With a 10mm threaded rod of reasonable quality you would be getting a failure at around 35-38kN and most hangers let go before this especially in the axial pull as they only require 15kN for EN959.
You don´t say what glue you used (technically this isn´t a glue but we all call it that) but for cheapo polyester you are looking at 5N/mm˛ and for an epoxy acrylate 10-12N/mm˛. Pure epoxy gets up to ca.15N/mm˛. 10mm dia = 31.42mm circumference X 100m depth = 3142mm˛ X 8N/mm˛ (vinylester for example) gives a pull-out resistance of 25kN and for something like Hilti Hit 500 you can double that.
You can read all about the theory and everything else concerning bolts on my useful website! www.bolt-products.com.

hey, thanx for the info!!

the glue we used is a Fester/Henkel product, Resistol CF 890. we bought it locally for $25, so i was not expecting much of it. we bought it to do some tests, to see how you have to put it without making a lot of mess, etc. the one we are considering costs a little more, but according to the specs holds twice as much. i think that would be enough....

btw we are just experimenting right now, as we have 150 sleeve bolts to put first. but we want to know how chemical anchors work in case we encounter softer rock or something...

thanx!!


Adk


Apr 16, 2010, 9:15 AM
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http://www.youtube.com/...SE3GSKgwc&fmt=18

To make clicky


shu2kill


Apr 16, 2010, 12:06 PM
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thanx


USnavy


Apr 19, 2010, 6:09 AM
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climbryn wrote:
Found this yesturday, seems to have really good prices on bulk orders and only carries equipment used for climbing.

http://renobclimbing.com/
The stuff they state is safe for climbing is not. I have tested some of their products, all substandard. I haven't tested their 1/2" stud bolts however. Those may be safe, it depends on what brand they are using. Anyway in the end the price never lies, if its inexpensive there is a reason.


(This post was edited by USnavy on Apr 19, 2010, 6:18 AM)


USnavy


Apr 19, 2010, 6:12 AM
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shu2kill wrote:
ryanb wrote:
I think glue is "rated" per contact area... probably something like 1 ton per square inch or something.

Threaded rod comes in different grades which you should be aware of as well.

the one we used is grade 5. but the stainless we placed yesterday, they dont have grade, so im not sure what it is. we will see today how it holds...
Grade 304 and 316 stainless is generally about as strong as grade five. The stainless machine bolts I tested were about 3% stronger then grade five, but it all depends on the stainless you are using.


shu2kill


Apr 19, 2010, 7:47 AM
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USnavy wrote:
shu2kill wrote:
ryanb wrote:
I think glue is "rated" per contact area... probably something like 1 ton per square inch or something.

Threaded rod comes in different grades which you should be aware of as well.

the one we used is grade 5. but the stainless we placed yesterday, they dont have grade, so im not sure what it is. we will see today how it holds...
Grade 304 and 316 stainless is generally about as strong as grade five. The stainless machine bolts I tested were about 3% stronger then grade five, but it all depends on the stainless you are using.

thats what we were told at the store, that the stainless threaded rod we got would be almost equivalent to grade 5... however it was my friend the 0ne who bought it, so i dont know if its 304 or 316...

thanx!!


JimTitt


Apr 19, 2010, 11:53 PM
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It doesn´t matter whether the stud is 304 or 316 as the difference in strength is minimal.
The problem is knowing that the material really is 304 or 316 as some countries seem to be able to produce these grades with the strength of cheese!
The simple test is to get a piece of rod (and nuts) and torque it up with some washers between the two nuts (best done on a steel plate with a hole in it), for an M10 threaded rod the clamping force in kN is approximately half the applied torque in Nm with a dry joint. You should be able to pull something like 45kN on an M10 rod before it breaks. This is all a bit approximate as there are loads of variables but you would be well on the safe side with this.
The reason this system isn´t so popular is related to stopping the hanger spinning, spinners being a pain in the ass to clip and rightly unpopular (as will be the installer whose soul will be cursed forever by struggling leaders). One solution is to weld the nut and hanger onto the threaded bar but this is yet more work. The other solution is to install the threaded bar and then come back and fit the hanger to the correct torque another day, making sure you kept the glue off the threads when installing! This is another load of work for the installer.


shu2kill


Apr 20, 2010, 6:33 AM
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JimTitt wrote:
It doesn´t matter whether the stud is 304 or 316 as the difference in strength is minimal.
The problem is knowing that the material really is 304 or 316 as some countries seem to be able to produce these grades with the strength of cheese!
The simple test is to get a piece of rod (and nuts) and torque it up with some washers between the two nuts (best done on a steel plate with a hole in it), for an M10 threaded rod the clamping force in kN is approximately half the applied torque in Nm with a dry joint. You should be able to pull something like 45kN on an M10 rod before it breaks. This is all a bit approximate as there are loads of variables but you would be well on the safe side with this.
The reason this system isn´t so popular is related to stopping the hanger spinning, spinners being a pain in the ass to clip and rightly unpopular (as will be the installer whose soul will be cursed forever by struggling leaders). One solution is to weld the nut and hanger onto the threaded bar but this is yet more work. The other solution is to install the threaded bar and then come back and fit the hanger to the correct torque another day, making sure you kept the glue off the threads when installing! This is another load of work for the installer.

well, since we dont have a dinamometer (yet), we did an empirical test. basically, we drilled a big rock (about 160 lbs) and glued a 100 mm piece of threaded rod to it, to which we later installed a hanger. then, we found a 10 feet boulder (not climbable), and, using a Hilti 3/8 mechanical wedge bolt, installed a hanger at about 6 feet from the ground.

then we took the big rock to the top of the boulder and tied the 2 hangers using big quicklinks and old static rappeling rope.

then, with 3 cameras rolling, we dropped the rock, applying a factor 2 fall to the system. the first time, the top hanger bend downwards a lot, but everything held fine. the second time, the rock chipped a bit, but the hangers held, and both the chemical and the mechanical anchor held just fine. when we edit all the videos and photos i will create a new thread to discuss that and listen to your opinions.

and, if we were to bolt using the threaded rod, we were thinking of doing it as you say. install the threaded rod, and then after it has cured go and install the hangers to the specified torque...

thanx!!


dingus


Apr 20, 2010, 6:48 AM
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Great thread.

DMT


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