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Request for information, re. ground fall accident @ Darkside, RRG
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majid_sabet


Apr 21, 2010, 2:02 PM
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     Re: [jefffski] Request for information, re. ground fall accident @ Darkside, RRG [In reply to]
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jefffski wrote:
While I respect the family's need to get past this event, they also need to understand our needs. Whenever there is an accident, many of us think "That could have been me. How can I make sure that it won't happen to me."

For many of us, this is our motivation. If anything can be gained from this person's injuries, it may be to prevent it happening to someone else.

Best wishes for a speedy recovery.

I hate politics and believe it or not, even key players on this very site do put things under the carpet at times.

The reality is that that accident happens and climbers do make mistakes. IMO, Every climber in the world has the right to know the detail of each climbing accident cause these sort of information is what keep us alive. learning from others mistake or whatever is not something you want to be conservative on or keep it hidden.


(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Apr 21, 2010, 2:03 PM)


clausti


Apr 21, 2010, 2:29 PM
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     Re: [majid_sabet] Request for information, re. ground fall accident @ Darkside, RRG [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
IMO, Every climber in the world has the right to know the detail of each climbing accident cause these sort of information is what keep us alive.

well, your opinion is incorrect. no civilian adult has the "right" to interrogate any other civilian adult about where they were and what they were doing, exactly, at any given time.

the climber is still in the hospital. out of respect for his family, we need to be respectful. self-important demands for information are not respectful. people's families really do read this stuff.

and, as always, our continual thoughts and prayers go with mike for his recovery.


granite_grrl


Apr 21, 2010, 3:16 PM
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     Re: [jefffski] Request for information, re. ground fall accident @ Darkside, RRG [In reply to]
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jefffski wrote:
While I respect the family's need to get past this event, they also need to understand our needs. Whenever there is an accident, many of us think "That could have been me. How can I make sure that it won't happen to me."

For many of us, this is our motivation. If anything can be gained from this person's injuries, it may be to prevent it happening to someone else.

Best wishes for a speedy recovery.
I hate to tell you this, but sometimes shit just happens. No ones fault, and nothing that you can learn from it.

When accident analysis happen people like to assign blame. They figure if they can blame the accident on the belayer, or the climber, or the weather, or whatever they can sit back, relax and say "well, I'll never let that happen to me". The people who have gone through these accidents have to deal with this questioning and the blame, it's not fun. I don't blame anyone for not wanting to deal with it, especially if they're sitting in a hospital just trying get better.

But hey, if you want to make sure accidents like this don't happen to you I suggest you stop climbing. That's the only way to be sure.


Shroom


Apr 21, 2010, 3:20 PM
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     Re: [majid_sabet] Request for information, re. ground fall accident @ Darkside, RRG [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
jefffski wrote:
While I respect the family's need to get past this event, they also need to understand our needs. Whenever there is an accident, many of us think "That could have been me. How can I make sure that it won't happen to me."

For many of us, this is our motivation. If anything can be gained from this person's injuries, it may be to prevent it happening to someone else.

Best wishes for a speedy recovery.

I hate politics and believe it or not, even key players on this very site do put things under the carpet at times.

The reality is that that accident happens and climbers do make mistakes. IMO, Every climber in the world has the right to know the detail of each climbing accident cause these sort of information is what keep us alive. learning from others mistake or whatever is not something you want to be conservative on or keep it hidden.

Majid, you have let yourself become a caricature whether you know it or not. Any accident draws you to post like flies are drawn to honey water.

You have NO right to ask about details from this incident at this point. Are you special? Is the climbing community, who I assume you will claim you are asking for, due special consideration? At this point a fellow climber is fighting for his life, and you want details NOW for your personal satisfaction? Please respect the climber's friends and families.

Take a step back, and respect the fact that the details are not out there yet. When they are, you can analyze them until you are blue in the teeth. Just do it in a different thread, maybe something displaying your vast experience in the title. You can chest thump, draw arrows, and advocate rapping on dissected ropes there, and the real world can choose to ignore you.

Where have you ever posted your mistakes? I bet you made some. If you were seriously injured would you like your parents stumbling across a majid-did-this-wrong-thread?


iknowfear


Apr 21, 2010, 3:34 PM
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     Re: [wonderwoman] Request for information, re. ground fall accident @ Darkside, RRG [In reply to]
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Best Wishes and hang in there Mike! Stay Tough!

--
Since an "Accident and Incident Analysis" is not wanted (and not possible since there is simply no Info) maybe this thread should be locked or moved to general, since this is not an analysis but a get well thread.


blondgecko
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Apr 21, 2010, 4:24 PM
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     Re: [iknowfear] Request for information, re. ground fall accident @ Darkside, RRG [In reply to]
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iknowfear wrote:
Best Wishes and hang in there Mike! Stay Tough!

--
Since an "Accident and Incident Analysis" is not wanted (and not possible since there is simply no Info) maybe this thread should be locked or moved to general, since this is not an analysis but a get well thread.

That could be arranged, with a couple more votes from people more closely associated with Mike and/or his belayer.

Otherwise, I agree with many others who've already posted here. Every person who's climbed outside a gym more than a handful of times (and even a substantial fraction of gym-only climbers) has a collection of "shit happens," "that could have been bad" or "I'm glad I noticed that before it caused a problem" stories. You can say to yourself, "I'm careful, and so that can't happen to me." You can, but you'd be deluding yourself. Shit happens. To everyone, yourself included.

The family of the injured climber has asked for privacy while he does his best to pull through. I don't see any reason why that shouldn't be respected.


majid_sabet


Apr 21, 2010, 4:37 PM
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     Re: [blondgecko] Request for information, re. ground fall accident @ Darkside, RRG [In reply to]
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blondgecko wrote:
iknowfear wrote:
Best Wishes and hang in there Mike! Stay Tough!

--
Since an "Accident and Incident Analysis" is not wanted (and not possible since there is simply no Info) maybe this thread should be locked or moved to general, since this is not an analysis but a get well thread.

That could be arranged, with a couple more votes from people more closely associated with Mike and/or his belayer.

Otherwise, I agree with many others who've already posted here. Every person who's climbed outside a gym more than a handful of times (and even a substantial fraction of gym-only climbers) has a collection of "shit happens," "that could have been bad" or "I'm glad I noticed that before it caused a problem" stories. You can say to yourself, "I'm careful, and so that can't happen to me." You can, but you'd be deluding yourself. Shit happens. To everyone, yourself included.

The family of the injured climber has asked for privacy while he does his best to pull through. I don't see any reason why that shouldn't be respected.

if people in think this particular accident is special and no one should talk about then IMO, MODS should move it to some other forum other than I&A till more facts are present.


majid_sabet


Apr 21, 2010, 4:39 PM
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     Re: [Shroom] Request for information, re. ground fall accident @ Darkside, RRG [In reply to]
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Shroom wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
jefffski wrote:
While I respect the family's need to get past this event, they also need to understand our needs. Whenever there is an accident, many of us think "That could have been me. How can I make sure that it won't happen to me."

For many of us, this is our motivation. If anything can be gained from this person's injuries, it may be to prevent it happening to someone else.

Best wishes for a speedy recovery.

I hate politics and believe it or not, even key players on this very site do put things under the carpet at times.

The reality is that that accident happens and climbers do make mistakes. IMO, Every climber in the world has the right to know the detail of each climbing accident cause these sort of information is what keep us alive. learning from others mistake or whatever is not something you want to be conservative on or keep it hidden.

Majid, you have let yourself become a caricature whether you know it or not. Any accident draws you to post like flies are drawn to honey water.

You have NO right to ask about details from this incident at this point. Are you special? Is the climbing community, who I assume you will claim you are asking for, due special consideration? At this point a fellow climber is fighting for his life, and you want details NOW for your personal satisfaction? Please respect the climber's friends and families.

Take a step back, and respect the fact that the details are not out there yet. When they are, you can analyze them until you are blue in the teeth. Just do it in a different thread, maybe something displaying your vast experience in the title. You can chest thump, draw arrows, and advocate rapping on dissected ropes there, and the real world can choose to ignore you.

Where have you ever posted your mistakes? I bet you made some. If you were seriously injured would you like your parents stumbling across a majid-did-this-wrong-thread?

This is a climbing accident forum and i have the right to ask what I ever I want to know about this accident. if you guys feel that no one should talk about this accident then do not mention anything about this accident till climber is released from hospital.

And please do not take me wrong. I lost three friends in climbing accidents this year and also posted the accident in forum as well.


blondgecko
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Apr 21, 2010, 4:42 PM
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majid_sabet wrote:
Shroom wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
jefffski wrote:
While I respect the family's need to get past this event, they also need to understand our needs. Whenever there is an accident, many of us think "That could have been me. How can I make sure that it won't happen to me."

For many of us, this is our motivation. If anything can be gained from this person's injuries, it may be to prevent it happening to someone else.

Best wishes for a speedy recovery.

I hate politics and believe it or not, even key players on this very site do put things under the carpet at times.

The reality is that that accident happens and climbers do make mistakes. IMO, Every climber in the world has the right to know the detail of each climbing accident cause these sort of information is what keep us alive. learning from others mistake or whatever is not something you want to be conservative on or keep it hidden.

Majid, you have let yourself become a caricature whether you know it or not. Any accident draws you to post like flies are drawn to honey water.

You have NO right to ask about details from this incident at this point. Are you special? Is the climbing community, who I assume you will claim you are asking for, due special consideration? At this point a fellow climber is fighting for his life, and you want details NOW for your personal satisfaction? Please respect the climber's friends and families.

Take a step back, and respect the fact that the details are not out there yet. When they are, you can analyze them until you are blue in the teeth. Just do it in a different thread, maybe something displaying your vast experience in the title. You can chest thump, draw arrows, and advocate rapping on dissected ropes there, and the real world can choose to ignore you.

Where have you ever posted your mistakes? I bet you made some. If you were seriously injured would you like your parents stumbling across a majid-did-this-wrong-thread?

This is a climbing accident forum and i have the right to ask what I ever I want to know about this accident. if you guys feel that no one should talk about this accident then do not mention anything about this accident till climber is released from hospital.

And please do not take me wrong. I lost three friends in climbing accidents this year and also posted the accident in forum as well.

You have the right to ask. You do not have the right to an answer.


Shroom


Apr 21, 2010, 4:52 PM
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And in case it got mixed up, I wish the young man who fell all the best.


majid_sabet


Apr 21, 2010, 5:08 PM
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clausti wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
IMO, Every climber in the world has the right to know the detail of each climbing accident cause these sort of information is what keep us alive.

well, your opinion is incorrect. no civilian adult has the "right" to interrogate any other civilian adult about where they were and what they were doing, exactly, at any given time.

the climber is still in the hospital. out of respect for his family, we need to be respectful. self-important demands for information are not respectful. people's families really do read this stuff.

and, as always, our continual thoughts and prayers go with mike for his recovery.

is your goal to have another climber in the hospital cause you do not others to know what happened ?


blondgecko
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Apr 21, 2010, 5:24 PM
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Keep things on topic, please. No thread drift in this forum.


jefffski


Apr 21, 2010, 5:30 PM
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The name of the thread is accident and incident analysis. It's a terrific tool that I browse frequently and always feel grateful when people, whether they be family members, the injured party, a partner or a witness post about incidents.

I am sensitive to the needs of family and friends who may be too traumatized to reply at once, but others may be in a position to do so. Let's learn, at an appropriate time, about what happened. Until then, our thought are with the victim and his family.


adatesman


Apr 21, 2010, 5:33 PM
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Hey now guys, let's step back a moment and get some perspective...

First, it's already been made clear by people close to the accident that the people directly involved will not be releasing details yet and asked to keep the speculation to a minimum because friends and family are here on RC and don't need to see that sort of thing at the moment. So please, a modicum of empathy and decency would be greatly appreciated as I'm sure these people aren't exactly having a good time right now. Details will doubtless come out once things settle down (by way of the climber recovering from his injuries, I hope), so a bit of patience would be good as well.

Second, there's no need to crowd this thread with discussions of Majid's ambulance chasing. Plenty of other threads on that topic already and seeing as it has NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS ACCIDENT kindly TAKE IT ELSEWHERE out of respect for the family and friends of the climber. They're likely seeing this thread and don't need to see that kind of crap.

-a.


lena_chita
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Apr 21, 2010, 5:50 PM
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majid_sabet wrote:
clausti wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
IMO, Every climber in the world has the right to know the detail of each climbing accident cause these sort of information is what keep us alive.

well, your opinion is incorrect. no civilian adult has the "right" to interrogate any other civilian adult about where they were and what they were doing, exactly, at any given time.

the climber is still in the hospital. out of respect for his family, we need to be respectful. self-important demands for information are not respectful. people's families really do read this stuff.

and, as always, our continual thoughts and prayers go with mike for his recovery.

is your goal to have another climber in the hospital cause you do not others to know what happened ?

Majid, please don't twist things around. This is not the case, and you should know it as well as anyone. I cannot think of any accident where knowing the details of the accident analysis on the same day as it happened or waiting for a month or two would make any difference to the climbing community at large.

And just to clarify, I am not personaly in posession of all details and sitting smugly on the important knowledge while other poor unprotected climbers are in danger due to being in the dark.

The accident report will be made, in due time, by people who had the chance to analyze the situation, interview everyone involved, and make a conclusion. I do not know when that would be, anymore than you do.

Inevitably when discussion starts immediately after any accident, there is not a lot of solid information to go on, and a lot of hearsay and speculation. It doesn't benefit anyone, neither the want-to-learn-from-others'-mistakes' people, nor the people who are close to the accident and trying to heal.


bill413


Apr 21, 2010, 6:59 PM
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blondgecko wrote:
You have the right to ask. You do not have the right to an answer.

Something I wish the general press, and the paparazzi, would learn.

Best wishes to the victims.
Less best to those who think that their curiosity entitles them to intrude on the suffering of others.


bhp


Apr 21, 2010, 7:49 PM
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I have to say I can't fault the curiosity of anyone who wants to know the circumstances of this accident, but I think we owe it to the concerned parties to have a little patience and tact.

On the other hand, we shouldn't underestimate the benefit of having this kind of information. You must learn from the mistakes of others, because you can't possibly live long enough to make them all yourself. Fortunately, such information is not terribly time-critical, but I hope that in due time it will be forthcoming, for the benefit of the greater climbing community.

One realm of civilian life where the public does indeed have the right to the circumstances of an accident is in aviation: The NTSB investigates the causes of accidents and posts both preliminary reports and probable cause conclusions in a publicly searchable database. This forum is about as close as we get to the NTSB database (here if your interested), but suffers in usefulness because it conflates the "get well soon" messages and the technical analysis.

This seems detrimental to both causes, in that those curious about the incident seem callous towards the victim/friends/family, and information about the incident is likely to be withheld because those who know what happened are reluctant to place blame, especially on the injured or deceased.

I wonder if the community might benefit from a more anonymized system for reporting the details of incidents or something, because it seems like this conflict comes up perennially.

Anyway. . .

Get well soon.


sausalito


Apr 21, 2010, 8:05 PM
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granite_grrl wrote:
jefffski wrote:
While I respect the family's need to get past this event, they also need to understand our needs. Whenever there is an accident, many of us think "That could have been me. How can I make sure that it won't happen to me."

For many of us, this is our motivation. If anything can be gained from this person's injuries, it may be to prevent it happening to someone else.

Best wishes for a speedy recovery.
I hate to tell you this, but sometimes shit just happens. No ones fault, and nothing that you can learn from it.

When accident analysis happen people like to assign blame. They figure if they can blame the accident on the belayer, or the climber, or the weather, or whatever they can sit back, relax and say "well, I'll never let that happen to me". The people who have gone through these accidents have to deal with this questioning and the blame, it's not fun. I don't blame anyone for not wanting to deal with it, especially if they're sitting in a hospital just trying get better.

But hey, if you want to make sure accidents like this don't happen to you I suggest you stop climbing. That's the only way to be sure.

Well I am somewhere in the middle here. While I don't think I am owed any sort of explanation I completely disagree with the premise that "sometimes shit happens" and no useful info. can be gleaned from the accident.

Truth is there are people that are probably heading to the RRG as we speak that have no clue of the accident.... *IF* this accident had anything to do with the route itself (groundfall potential if you blow the clip.. ect.) than I think the climbers there are in the wrong for not speaking up. The family does not owe anyone any sort of explanation... climbers on the scene IMO should at least offer direction as to what type of failure occurred.

My thoughts are with the climber and his family. I am logging off now to hug my wife extra tight and tell her I love her...... shit does happen but most of the time shit could have been prevented or subverted somehow.


sausalito


Apr 21, 2010, 8:17 PM
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clausti wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
IMO, Every climber in the world has the right to know the detail of each climbing accident cause these sort of information is what keep us alive.

well, your opinion is incorrect. no civilian adult has the "right" to interrogate any other civilian adult about where they were and what they were doing, exactly, at any given time.

the climber is still in the hospital. out of respect for his family, we need to be respectful. self-important demands for information are not respectful. people's families really do read this stuff.

and, as always, our continual thoughts and prayers go with mike for his recovery.

I understand the need to be respectful but how would it be disrepectful if someone gave factual information regarding the accident? People talking about it on the webernets will not change his condition or outcome so I see little harm in factual info. Conversation should be extremely limited in terms of judging or dissecting the incident.

My main issue is that on the rrg website there was some "guessing" that basically said it could have been bolt spacing/ground fall potential. As a climber if I knew something of that nature that remained a danger was going undiscussed I would feel terrible.

I guess I give benefit of the doubt to those who were there to believe they would pipe up if it was a danger that persists on that route specifically as opposed to a gerneralized climbing danger.


jakedatc


Apr 21, 2010, 8:47 PM
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sausalito wrote:
My main issue is that on the rrg website there was some "guessing" that basically said it could have been bolt spacing/ground fall potential. As a climber if I knew something of that nature that remained a danger was going undiscussed I would feel terrible.

I guess I give benefit of the doubt to those who were there to believe they would pipe up if it was a danger that persists on that route specifically as opposed to a gerneralized climbing danger.

at least one person posted over there that the clipping hold and bolt location are fine. one person said that you don't even need to pull up much rope to clip. And that the person on the route next to the accident said the clipping location was not the cause. future climbers of the route are going to be fine.


jt512


Apr 21, 2010, 9:14 PM
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Yikes. It's been less than a week since I found myself giving 5 stars to a post by USnavy, and here I am finding myself in 100% agreement with Majid. The facts of any accident should be made public, for the benefit of the public. I'm sorry if the parties close to the accident victims are made uncomfortable, but the benefits to the public of knowledge of the facts of the accident outweigh the comfort of the friends and relatives of the parties to the accident.

Jay


Breccan


Apr 21, 2010, 9:19 PM
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Clearly information about the accident will not change the climbers condition and there is rarely, if ever, harm in knowing the hard facts.

That being said, the problem here is that the people directly involved in the accident, who would be able to provide that factual information, are currently dealing with a whole host of other, much more pressing issues. For example, the climber in the hospital. Right now the well being of the climber is far far more important than anything else.

Previous posters with personal connections to the climber and belayer have made it clear that this was an accident that didn't involve anything new or any kind of catastrophic gear failure that needs to be immediately addressed and that careful diligence on the part of all of us will be enough to avoid a similar accident in the future.

The respect the family and friends of the climber and belayer are asking for is time to heal themselves and time to take care of the climber before addressing anything else. Once those things are accomplished, I have no doubt that a more complete and factual report will become available. Until then, its our responsibility to be a supportive community and sit tight to allow the family and belayer the time they need.

Remember the accident happened only 4 days ago and that the climber is seriously injured and still hospitalized. It is disrespectful and irresponsible to expect that family members or the belayer would have time or energy to expend on anything other than healing the injured climber and healing themselves.


patto


Apr 21, 2010, 10:53 PM
Post #50 of 77 (7839 views)
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Registered: Nov 14, 2005
Posts: 1453

     Re: [Breccan] Request for information, re. ground fall accident @ Darkside, RRG [In reply to]
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Breccan wrote:
It is disrespectful and irresponsible to expect that family members or the belayer would have time or energy to expend on anything other than healing the injured climber and healing themselves.

There is no expectation that those close to the incident need to make forums posts.

Though when people come to a forum and make lengthy posts and detail that they know what happened but they aren't telling it is just misguided.

Instead people close to the accident have posted vague descriptions of system failure and it just encourages speculation.

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Forums : Climbing Information : Accident and Incident Analysis

 


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