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Gabel
May 5, 2010, 10:44 AM
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Please excuse my English since I am not a native speaker Hei, My name is Gabriel and I am a gumby. Oh, the irony. The irony! On the 25th of April I registered after following the forums for months to post in a thread about a climbing gym fall near Munich, Germany. I found it quite interesting and translated a few lines. http://www.rockclimbing.com/..._reply;so=ASC;mh=25; I remember reading a few posts about rope grabbing after finishing a climb and also about using a grigri on the 26th. One day later I decked at my local climbing gym. tl;dr: I decked 10m after finishing a climb and letting go of the holds. My partner used a tube-device for belaying but did not arrest my fall. He suffered rope burns to his hands while I broke my first lumbal vertebrae, bit my tongue and bruised my heels. I am a 24yo student from Germany and a climbing beginner of one and a half years. My climbing was mostly leading in the gym and I had just started to climb sport routes outsides (about 10-15 occasions). My belayer climbs a little bit longer and is a fews years older than me. We used to climb alot in the past few months since we met in the gym. The truth of course is that I am responsible for this accident. I laid my life in the hands of the wrong man. There were a few occasions that should have gotten me to think and ditch my belayer. On our last climbing day outside I was leading a hard route with bolts about 3-4m apart (which is a lot for me) and I did not manage to fall once but took rope a lot. I always thought he could be a little more secure while belaying. I caught him twice with an open locker after finishing the partner check and just a few weeks ago he had started a lead with a different belayer who had threaded the rope the wrong way through his grigri. That particular day I drove to the climbing gym thinking that I wanted him to use the grigri while belaying me and decided to teach him how to do it. I switched to the grigri from a tube device pretty fast because I have always found it easier to handle (like if the climber was projecting and falling a lot) and also safer. I don't know why I did not listen to myself. Well, it had worked so many times, so why should something happen now? Right. I arrived at the gym, he had already done two routes with a friend of us and so I geared up, we did the partner check (I can remember that everything was okay) and I started up leading an easy warm-up route in a slightly overhanging section of the gym. I clipped all quickdraws (about 6 I think) and finished the climb. In Germany in our gym there is one last "double quickdraw". Our climbing wall is just 11m high. I remember pulling some slack, letting it go to simulate a failed clipping. Then I let go without announcing anything. (The stupidity of this makes it really hard to write these lines.) I wanted to take a moderate fall to get my head "warmed up" as we both used to do lots of times. One thing I did differently this time was not telling my belayer I was going to take a little fall at the top. I have always done this but not this time. A few weeks ago he replied after I once again announced that I am going to take a fall that I "didn't need to announce my falls". I instantly felt something was wrong and had a big "take, Take, TAKE" in my head. A moment before I decked I started screaming. In my opinion there was no rope stretch. He himself is not really sure what happened. He is positive that he was watching me while pulling slack and had at least one hand on the brake side of the rope. My speculation is that he had the rope strands parallel to feed slack and I fell in that very moment. Once the rope was in motion it was too late. How could _I_ have prevented this fall? 1. Listen to myself and act accordingly. 2. Have my belayer use a grigri. 3. Always announce fall training. I know the belayer is supposed to arrest the fall but why take the risk? 4. Have my belayer take when I finish a climb and grab the rope for backup. The rest is just some yadda-yadda, if you don't mind. I remember screaming on top of my lungs, so loud I might have never screamed before. The pain in my heels was excruciating, my back also hurt and I had blood in my mouth. Someone instantly told me to lie still, but I was aware of that myself. My belayer started apologizing and I was on the brink of insulting him but decided to conserve my energy. I think my thoughts were: "Everything is going to change now. This is sad." and "I want to go 5 minutes back in time". The rescue was pretty fast. Stiff-neck, proper transport etc. I didn't feel anything in my left big toe and that's when I thought that I was really fucked. The hospital was just 2 minutes away and I am told that 3 to 4 doctors were waiting for my arrival (neuro-surgeon, neurologist, surgeon etc...) but I guess they left pretty fast. Sorry, guys! Next thing I remember is lieing in the emergency room and wiggling my toes like a madman because I fucking could; x-raying and the radiologist comes up to me and says "Allright we don't need that stiff-neck anymore" and me crying. I was back on my feet 17 hours later and I was released from the hospital 66 hours later. I am doing fine, day-to-day is different of course and I've already started to put on weight. My heels hurt like a mother though, that's the worst. The first time I could take a shower again I cried tears of joy. My name is Gabriel and I am a survivor. I would be pleased if you drop me a line, comment or just tell me how dumb I am. May someone else besides me learn from my mistakes. PS: I'd like to hear how you guys dealt with your falls psychologically? Did you come back to climbing? And finally, has someone had a heel bruise and how did it develop?
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viciado
May 5, 2010, 12:18 PM
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Gabriel, Sorry to hear about your accident (insert inappropriate flaming here). Yes, it was probably avoidable. It sounds like several little mistakes happened all at once and the combination resulted in your fall. From your post, it looks like you have learned some valuable lessons. You asked how people handle the psychological aspect of climbing after a serious fall. Without belaboring the point, I respectfully suggest that you make the changes you have indicated and climb (once your body has recovered enough... listen to your doctor.).
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socalclimber
May 5, 2010, 12:53 PM
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Boy, be glad this didn't happen outside. The outcome could have been much worse. Yeah, there were a lot of mistakes here. Mainly, the real question I have to ask is how the belayer lost control. If he uses the "Pinch & Slide" method, he very well could have had both hands parallel to one another. Obviously, this is the point with this technique where you have almost no friction in the system. This is the main reason I hate this type of belay technique. Personally, I have never been a big fan of "practice" falls. For the very reasons you described above. They can be done safely, but still. I tend to come from the older school mentality that the leader must not fall. Honestly, there isn't much more to say about this since you have done a pretty good job of analyzing the accident yourself and seem to have a solid grasp on your mistakes.
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lena_chita
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May 5, 2010, 2:10 PM
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I am glad you are alive and posting about this accident yourself. I hope you make a quick recovery and suffer no lasting problems from it. I think you have the analysis pretty much covered. One thing that you should remember though is that even though a gri-gri might have prevented this fall, in general ANY belay device is ONLY as safe as the person using it. You put your life in someone's hands. Those hands should hold a device they are comfortable and competent with, but ultimately, it's the hands (and the head that controls them) that is at fault, not the device.
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dingus
May 5, 2010, 2:57 PM
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If you please, can you describe how this belayer gripped the rope in normal belay fashion? DMT
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rtwilli4
May 5, 2010, 3:02 PM
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I'm glad you are OK man. I'm sorry to hear about your accident. I don't think you should blame yourself too much for this incident. The practice fall thing has always been a bit weird to me... for this reason and several others. You could have done without that for sure... but that's the way you wanted to warm up and that's why we have belayers right? The fact that your belayer came up and apologized signals that he knew he had done something wrong. If had had rope burn on his hands... he obviously lost control of the rope, which is just not acceptable, especially inside. Having said that... you were climbing, and you chose to climb with this guy even though you had doubts about his safety. It's always our own responsibility to keep ourselves safe. I still don't think you should beat yourself up. No point in that. just be positive, and you will get back to climbing. As for the psychological thing, you just have to learn from your mistakes and move on. I've had a few seriously close calls, but one kind of woke me up. A few years ago I decked from about 25 feet. I was lucky, and didn't really have any injuries at all. I started up a climb with a low crux. It was a very awkward sequence, and I was having a hard time seeing the crack I wanted to place my first piece in. I placed a marginal piece of gear, blindly, and then chose to climb through the crux without stopping to place a second piece. I had been on the climb for 10 min already, helplessly flailing. A signal that I should have down climbed. I knew it at the time but ignored the feeling and pushed on. I got pumped, came off, and the piece popped. Slowed me down a bit, but it still came out and I decked. It didn't take 30 seconds for me to realize how lucky I was that I didn't get hurt, and how stupid I was for continuing up the climb, going against my gut. I was about a 45 min hike away from our car... a hike that included a 75 foot ladder. I was just a broken ankel away from a full on rescue. I was VERY lucky. I take trad climbing a lot more serious now. Mainly, I prepare myself much better before I start up a pitch... no matter what the grade. I feel that I am a much calmer and smarter climber now that I was then and it is because I've learned from mistakes. That is what climbing... and LIFE is all about. Stay positive, and learn from the indecent. You will climb again... and you will be better for it!
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bill413
May 5, 2010, 5:39 PM
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I'm glad it was not worse for you. About announcing falls - when climbing, or even getting ready to lower, you can fall at any time. You should not need to announce falls - the belayer is responsible for catching them no matter when they occur. Don't beat yourself up over that, I don't think that was your fault. Dealing with the psychological aspects is hard, and varies. We hope you come back to climbing, even if it may take a while for you to get your head back for it. Good luck.
(This post was edited by bill413 on May 5, 2010, 5:39 PM)
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silascl
May 6, 2010, 12:10 AM
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This should be required reading for anyone who wants to lead in a gym and anyone who wants to take practice falls. It seems like both things are taken lightly, when they really shouldn't be. Thanks for the excellent post.
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patmay81
May 6, 2010, 12:58 AM
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glad to hear your ok. I've climbed with sketchy people too. One thing I learned was that if you are not comfortable climbing with someone, then don't. I boulder with people I don't want to belay me.
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villageidiot
May 6, 2010, 1:14 AM
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silascl wrote: This should be required reading for anyone who wants to lead in a gym and anyone who wants to take practice falls. It seems like both things are taken lightly, when they really shouldn't be. Thanks for the excellent post. Make sure your belayer actually knows how to belay?
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Gabel
May 6, 2010, 9:35 AM
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Hei Guys, Thank you so much for your kind words. I feels good to hear that I am at least heading in the right direction with this accident. I am pretty certain that he did not use the pinch&slide method for belaying but another european method. Right hand is always on the brake strand side, feeding slack is similar I guess. If you take in slack, you pull the brake strand forward and parallel and then down again in the brake position. Your brake hand is now far away from your belay device so you grab the brake strand with your left hand, and then take the right hand off to position it nearer to the belay device on the brake strand a moment later. I have always found this method to be very safe since there is always at least one hand on the brake strand. Maybe he was not thorough in changing hands on the brake strand. The fact that he was watching me and his burns (reports indicate burns between his right thumb and index finger - I will post pictures as soon as I get them) indicate a major mistake though. Obviously it would have also been a mistake to force a grigri on him. Both parties need to decide what they want. The belayer should belay with the device he is most comfortable and secure with. The climber should be belayed by a device he is comfortable being belayed with. A lot of my friends thought about changing to the grigri asap but I warned them that this would be unsafe and dangerous too. So thank you for that comment, Lena. I also know that there is no automatic belay device and there can be major fuckups with grigris as well. I just wanted to express that in my opinion a grigri might have saved me in this particular incident. In the last few months I expressed a mindset that might have also lead to this accident. I was pushing grades hard, getting "better" every time. Everything was about redpointing higher grades. Though I enjoyed this aspect of climbing I imagine it also made me careless. I was gym climbing like I would have been doing a fitness workout in a regular gym. What is hard on me, is that I did not trust my instinct. In Germany we use a phrase which literally means "trust your belly". I went to the climbing gym the other day. It took some time to actually go in there but when I did I was glad. My first thought was "Jeez that's pretty high!". It is funny that the one reason I am still alive and well is that our climbing wall is so short. I already wanted to climb again. Bouldering for sure, but I will have to see about leading. There is just so much at stake - everything, and even more. I am the last person that will have problems when I am dead. But what about my family and my friends? I experienced their pain and worries first hand. Calling my father on the night of the accident was...painful. He had always told me about the dangers of climbing and had had the habit of sending me accident reports on climbing accidents. I can live a good life without climbing but I can't live without my life. The decision should be easy. But then, climbing has given me so much! From the first time a friend took me toproping I have been hooked. What a way to feel alive, to forget everything else! Concentrating on the next move and nothing else. Climbing was living for me. Also the perfect activity to combine with my love for the outdoors. I remember myself after good sex or at beautiful, pristine beaches in Scotland saying "Wooow, you can kill me now." I remember a guy from "The sharp end" saying that he'd rather have forty years of adventure than 80 years of boring life. I don't know about that anymore. I will heal up and then I will see. I think that in the long run I can profit from this accident. The first few days in the hospital I experienced a deep satisfaction and a sense of calmness I have never experienced before. I know now that nothing matters if you are alive and well. Exams, girls, work, everyday worries. None of that matters. I might post something about my medical condition later. I feel my injuries are very characteristically for this kind of accident so this might be interesting for other climbers as well. Take care, Gabriel
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gblauer
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May 6, 2010, 11:36 AM
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Been there, done that. Read this thread: http://www.rockclimbing.com/..._reply;so=ASC;mh=25; It messed with my head for almost the entire summer season. PM me if you want more information. Sorry to hear about your accident and I hope you recover quickly.
(This post was edited by gblauer on May 6, 2010, 12:31 PM)
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greatview
May 6, 2010, 12:16 PM
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good to hear you're alive ... get in contact with the Sicherheitskreis of the DAV if they don't know already, you will help their work.
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mr.tastycakes
May 6, 2010, 7:51 PM
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glad to hear you're alright. I think almost everyone has had the "is it worth it?" thoughts after having an accident, seeing one, or just reading an accident report. There's a guy in the general forum right now selling all his gear because he decided climbing wasn't worth it. Anyway, best of luck with getting back on the horse.
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majid_sabet
May 6, 2010, 10:30 PM
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In reply to: My speculation is that he had the rope strands parallel to feed slack and I fell in that very moment. Once the rope was in motion it was too late. This is one of the reasons why i hate parallel belaying method more than anything else in climbing cause at that given moment , if you take a fall, the rope will slip thru the belay device and you will end up with rope burn. Either way, do not blame yourself for this accident. A leader does not have to yell while falling. its always the delayer's responsibility to be alert with or without verbal communication.
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on May 6, 2010, 10:30 PM)
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Gabel
May 7, 2010, 9:23 AM
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I have already reported the accident to the DAV (german alpine club) climbing safety division. Gail, thank you for your reply. It was an interesting read. The injuries you suffered seem very similar to mine and there are also similarities in the accident although you did not make the numerous mistakes I did. It sounds as if you have recovered impossibly fast and well. You wrote that you have already been leading a few weeks after the fall? Were you not afraid of hurting yourself further in a leader fall? I would be glad to be answered a few questions and you can do this via PM as well if you please. I have compressed my L1 and since the compression is the most severe on the ventral side of the vertebrae, I am not supposed to do any ventral flexion of the upper body and should go easy on rotation and lateral flexion as well. My back pain (+swelling and hematoma) was also located in the lower back, the Sacrum to L4 region I suppose. My back is already pain free (Day 10) but my heels are both still awful. There is no hematoma or swelling but they hurt with every step, especially out of bed in the morning. Therefore I am still on ibuprofene. Did you experience any pain in your heels? How did your injuries develop in the long run? Did you encounter any chronic pain or anatomical deformations of your spine (such as a hunch)? On the psychological side, one summer season to cope does not sound very long. Did you have a particular approach back to climbing or did you just climb for the hell of it? Please disregard all this if I am bringing back unpleasant memories. My follow-up is scheduled for next week and I am eager to get back to any sort of physical activity asap. Majid, though you are right that a competent belayer should have caught my fall it must be noted that the practice of pulling slack and letting go a moment later is _extremely_ dangerous and most certainly led to the fall on this occasion.
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gblauer
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May 7, 2010, 12:39 PM
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Gabel, I sent you a PM. Hope you are feeling better. This too shall pass...
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ClimbClimb
May 7, 2010, 7:26 PM
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Very sorry to hear about your accident and hope you recover quickly, in all ways. From an A&I forum perspective, I think this shows that even climbers with 1.5-2 years of experience, including outside the gym and leading, can fail at belaying. ALso, I have no idea what the "parallel" belaying technique is, but the one used in this case -- of constantly swiching hands on the brake strand -- always makes me nervous dsspite its popularity among some climbing communities. Itseems to invite a mishap by not training motor memory to always have the brake hand on the brake rope . (fixied embarassing typo, thanks csproul)
(This post was edited by ClimbClimb on May 7, 2010, 9:17 PM)
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csproul
May 7, 2010, 7:37 PM
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brake
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ClimbClimb
May 7, 2010, 8:30 PM
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thanks, csproul, that was embarassing... not sure what got into me -- fixed the original post
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viciado
May 7, 2010, 9:04 PM
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ClimbClimb wrote: Very sorry to hear about your accident and hope you recover quickly, in all ways. From an A&I forum perspective, I think this shows that even climbers with 1.5-2 years of experience, including outside the gym and leading, can fail at belaying. ALso, I have no idea what the "parallel" belaying technique is, but the one used in this case -- of constantly swiching hands on the brake strand -- always makes me nervous dsspite its popularity among some climbing communities. Itseems to invite a mishap by not training motor memory to always have the break hand on the brake rope . (fixied embarassing typo, thanks csproul) Missed one of them did you?
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robdotcalm
May 7, 2010, 10:15 PM
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Gabriel, There is recovery from injury and there can be a return to climbing. I injured my self in the gym 2 years ago resulting in compression fracture of 4-vertebrae as well as a painful injury of the intercostal cartilage. And, unlike you, I did this all to myself by forgetting to clip into an auto-belay device. stupid accident At some point, I’ll write about what I did for recovery, but I just don’t feel ready to do that yet (PM me if you want to know more). I did return to climbing after 6 months but for several weeks it was nothing harder than 5.4 , and I’m grateful to all the strong climbers who were willing to spend their time with me doing this. The 5.4 was OK since it seemed like 5.10 to me. The most permanent residues of the accident are my being about 4 cm. shorter and a less flexible spine. My wife is now taller than me, but it doesn’t seem to have changed the dynamics of our marriage. She told me what to do when I was taller than her, and she still tells me what to do. I think the most important thing is to first concentrate on getting well, and then one can think about climbing. After you recover, a return to climbing can come slowly and naturally. I never pushed my return to climbing. I just waited, and one day I wanted to climb again. . You have one advantage in getting better faster in that you’re a lot younger than I. On the other, being in my late 70s may have given me more patience. All the second thoughts you’re having about climbing are inevitable. We do have to assess the danger and the risk it can cause to us and our loved ones against the pleasure we derive from it. There’s no way to generalize on this as the answer is so personal. Cheers, Rob.calm
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desertwanderer81
May 7, 2010, 11:24 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: In reply to: My speculation is that he had the rope strands parallel to feed slack and I fell in that very moment. Once the rope was in motion it was too late. This is one of the reasons why i hate parallel belaying method more than anything else in climbing cause at that given moment , if you take a fall, the rope will slip thru the belay device and you will end up with rope burn. Either way, do not blame yourself for this accident. A leader does not have to yell while falling. its always the delayer's responsibility to be alert with or without verbal communication. What the heck is a "parallel belay method" ?
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majid_sabet
May 7, 2010, 11:38 PM
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desertwanderer81 wrote: majid_sabet wrote: In reply to: My speculation is that he had the rope strands parallel to feed slack and I fell in that very moment. Once the rope was in motion it was too late. This is one of the reasons why i hate parallel belaying method more than anything else in climbing cause at that given moment , if you take a fall, the rope will slip thru the belay device and you will end up with rope burn. Either way, do not blame yourself for this accident. A leader does not have to yell while falling. its always the delayer's responsibility to be alert with or without verbal communication. What the heck is a "parallel belay method" ? is not what the heck but what the fuck. see the retard who is teaching how to belay on this film. When both ropes are parallel during taking slack, if the leader takes a fall, rope will zip thru belayer hand .this method should be banned from all gyms and whoever came up with it should be hanged to the nearest tree. http://www.ehow.com/...5_belay-climber.html
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on May 7, 2010, 11:44 PM)
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jt512
May 7, 2010, 11:59 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: desertwanderer81 wrote: majid_sabet wrote: In reply to: My speculation is that he had the rope strands parallel to feed slack and I fell in that very moment. Once the rope was in motion it was too late. This is one of the reasons why i hate parallel belaying method more than anything else in climbing cause at that given moment , if you take a fall, the rope will slip thru the belay device and you will end up with rope burn. Either way, do not blame yourself for this accident. A leader does not have to yell while falling. its always the delayer's responsibility to be alert with or without verbal communication. What the heck is a "parallel belay method" ? is not what the heck but what the fuck. see the retard who is teaching how to belay on this film. When both ropes are parallel during taking slack, if the leader takes a fall, rope will zip thru belayer hand .this method should be banned from all gyms and whoever came up with it should be hanged to the nearest tree. http://www.ehow.com/...5_belay-climber.html Well, that guy's a fucking menace to society. I'd leave a comment, except I have to join. Jay
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milesenoell
May 8, 2010, 12:46 AM
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majid_sabet wrote: desertwanderer81 wrote: majid_sabet wrote: In reply to: My speculation is that he had the rope strands parallel to feed slack and I fell in that very moment. Once the rope was in motion it was too late. This is one of the reasons why i hate parallel belaying method more than anything else in climbing cause at that given moment , if you take a fall, the rope will slip thru the belay device and you will end up with rope burn. Either way, do not blame yourself for this accident. A leader does not have to yell while falling. its always the delayer's responsibility to be alert with or without verbal communication. What the heck is a "parallel belay method" ? is not what the heck but what the fuck. see the retard who is teaching how to belay on this film. When both ropes are parallel during taking slack, if the leader takes a fall, rope will zip thru belayer hand .this method should be banned from all gyms and whoever came up with it should be hanged to the nearest tree. http://www.ehow.com/...5_belay-climber.html [IMG]http://www.picfury.com/2n/img/ScreenHunter_01 May 07 1634-1.jpg[/IMG] What an utterly ridiculous way to belay. It does however point out an interesting point, which is that even with terrible technique, you can catch most falls with little more than a good firm grip. The whole "your gonna die if you ever have the strands parallel" is a bit extreme.
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jt512
May 8, 2010, 1:25 AM
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milesenoell wrote: majid_sabet wrote: desertwanderer81 wrote: majid_sabet wrote: In reply to: My speculation is that he had the rope strands parallel to feed slack and I fell in that very moment. Once the rope was in motion it was too late. This is one of the reasons why i hate parallel belaying method more than anything else in climbing cause at that given moment , if you take a fall, the rope will slip thru the belay device and you will end up with rope burn. Either way, do not blame yourself for this accident. A leader does not have to yell while falling. its always the delayer's responsibility to be alert with or without verbal communication. What the heck is a "parallel belay method" ? is not what the heck but what the fuck. see the retard who is teaching how to belay on this film. When both ropes are parallel during taking slack, if the leader takes a fall, rope will zip thru belayer hand .this method should be banned from all gyms and whoever came up with it should be hanged to the nearest tree. http://www.ehow.com/...5_belay-climber.html [IMG]http://www.picfury.com/2n/img/ScreenHunter_01 May 07 1634-1.jpg[/IMG] What an utterly ridiculous way to belay. It does however point out an interesting point, which is that even with terrible technique, you can catch most falls with little more than a good firm grip. The video points out nothing of the sort. First of all, the climber is only toproping. Secondly, the belayer does not demonstrate that he can catch a fall using this technique.
In reply to: The whole "your gonna die if you ever have the strands parallel" is a bit extreme. That's true, but not for the reason you state. You can't expect to be able to hold a fall with the strands parallel. However, if the climber falls while you're holding the strands parallel, if you are a competent belayer, then you can lock off quickly, and thus stop the fall. That's why the pinch-and-slide method is safe in the hands of a competent belayer. However, there is no reason to maintain the ropes in a parallel position, as depicted in the video. Even if using the pinch-and-slide method, the ropes need only be kept parallel briefly during each belay cycle. Jay
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bill413
May 8, 2010, 3:18 AM
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jt512 wrote: majid_sabet wrote: desertwanderer81 wrote: majid_sabet wrote: In reply to: My speculation is that he had the rope strands parallel to feed slack and I fell in that very moment. Once the rope was in motion it was too late. This is one of the reasons why i hate parallel belaying method more than anything else in climbing cause at that given moment , if you take a fall, the rope will slip thru the belay device and you will end up with rope burn. Either way, do not blame yourself for this accident. A leader does not have to yell while falling. its always the delayer's responsibility to be alert with or without verbal communication. What the heck is a "parallel belay method" ? is not what the heck but what the fuck. see the retard who is teaching how to belay on this film. When both ropes are parallel during taking slack, if the leader takes a fall, rope will zip thru belayer hand .this method should be banned from all gyms and whoever came up with it should be hanged to the nearest tree. http://www.ehow.com/...5_belay-climber.html [IMG]http://www.picfury.com/2n/img/ScreenHunter_01 May 07 1634-1.jpg[/IMG] Well, that guy's a fucking menace to society. I'd leave a comment, except I have to join. Jay Majid - do you search for the worst of the worst?
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milesenoell
May 8, 2010, 4:06 AM
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jt512 wrote: milesenoell wrote: majid_sabet wrote: desertwanderer81 wrote: majid_sabet wrote: In reply to: My speculation is that he had the rope strands parallel to feed slack and I fell in that very moment. Once the rope was in motion it was too late. This is one of the reasons why i hate parallel belaying method more than anything else in climbing cause at that given moment , if you take a fall, the rope will slip thru the belay device and you will end up with rope burn. Either way, do not blame yourself for this accident. A leader does not have to yell while falling. its always the delayer's responsibility to be alert with or without verbal communication. What the heck is a "parallel belay method" ? is not what the heck but what the fuck. see the retard who is teaching how to belay on this film. When both ropes are parallel during taking slack, if the leader takes a fall, rope will zip thru belayer hand .this method should be banned from all gyms and whoever came up with it should be hanged to the nearest tree. http://www.ehow.com/...5_belay-climber.html [IMG]http://www.picfury.com/2n/img/ScreenHunter_01 May 07 1634-1.jpg[/IMG] What an utterly ridiculous way to belay. It does however point out an interesting point, which is that even with terrible technique, you can catch most falls with little more than a good firm grip. The video points out nothing of the sort. First of all, the climber is only toproping. Secondly, the belayer does not demonstrate that he can catch a fall using this technique. In reply to: The whole "your gonna die if you ever have the strands parallel" is a bit extreme. That's true, but not for the reason you state. You can't expect to be able to hold a fall with the strands parallel. However, if the climber falls while you're holding the strands parallel, if you are a competent belayer, then you can lock off quickly, and thus stop the fall. That's why the pinch-and-slide method is safe in the hands of a competent belayer. However, there is no reason to maintain the ropes in a parallel position, as depicted in the video. Even if using the pinch-and-slide method, the ropes need only be kept parallel briefly during each belay cycle. Jay I seem to have been unclear in my earlier post. I did not mean to say that the video demonstrated my point entirely. I was saying that if a climber professing to have 16 years of climbing and teaching was still using and teaching this method then it would seem to be sufficient, as one assumes that in all those years he has been catching falls successfully or he would not be teaching this method. Similarly, the pinch and slide method of belaying has a similar weakness, but I have never had a problem with people belaying me like that because a reasonably firm grip (and decent reflexes) buy you plenty of time to get into the locked off position during a fall, even if the fall happens when the strands are parallel. I had my own funny experience with this when climbing at a gym in Germany. I was belaying as I had originally been taught in an American gym: using the pinch and slide method. The guy working at the gym spazzed out on me and tried to demonstrate how dangerous this method was by having me belay for him while he deliberately jumped off without warning just as I had the strands parallel. As you might guess, no rope went through the device because all it takes is a decent grip as you lock off to make a normal catch. I thought the whole episode was pretty funny, but I still switched and now no longer use (or teach) the pinch and slide method.
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majid_sabet
May 8, 2010, 4:29 AM
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milesenoell wrote: jt512 wrote: milesenoell wrote: majid_sabet wrote: desertwanderer81 wrote: majid_sabet wrote: In reply to: My speculation is that he had the rope strands parallel to feed slack and I fell in that very moment. Once the rope was in motion it was too late. This is one of the reasons why i hate parallel belaying method more than anything else in climbing cause at that given moment , if you take a fall, the rope will slip thru the belay device and you will end up with rope burn. Either way, do not blame yourself for this accident. A leader does not have to yell while falling. its always the delayer's responsibility to be alert with or without verbal communication. What the heck is a "parallel belay method" ? is not what the heck but what the fuck. see the retard who is teaching how to belay on this film. When both ropes are parallel during taking slack, if the leader takes a fall, rope will zip thru belayer hand .this method should be banned from all gyms and whoever came up with it should be hanged to the nearest tree. http://www.ehow.com/...5_belay-climber.html [IMG]http://www.picfury.com/2n/img/ScreenHunter_01 May 07 1634-1.jpg[/IMG] What an utterly ridiculous way to belay. It does however point out an interesting point, which is that even with terrible technique, you can catch most falls with little more than a good firm grip. The video points out nothing of the sort. First of all, the climber is only toproping. Secondly, the belayer does not demonstrate that he can catch a fall using this technique. In reply to: The whole "your gonna die if you ever have the strands parallel" is a bit extreme. That's true, but not for the reason you state. You can't expect to be able to hold a fall with the strands parallel. However, if the climber falls while you're holding the strands parallel, if you are a competent belayer, then you can lock off quickly, and thus stop the fall. That's why the pinch-and-slide method is safe in the hands of a competent belayer. However, there is no reason to maintain the ropes in a parallel position, as depicted in the video. Even if using the pinch-and-slide method, the ropes need only be kept parallel briefly during each belay cycle. Jay I seem to have been unclear in my earlier post. I did not mean to say that the video demonstrated my point entirely. I was saying that if a climber professing to have 16 years of climbing and teaching was still using and teaching this method then it would seem to be sufficient, as one assumes that in all those years he has been catching falls successfully or he would not be teaching this method. Similarly, the pinch and slide method of belaying has a similar weakness, but I have never had a problem with people belaying me like that because a reasonably firm grip (and decent reflexes) buy you plenty of time to get into the locked off position during a fall, even if the fall happens when the strands are parallel. I had my own funny experience with this when climbing at a gym in Germany. I was belaying as I had originally been taught in an American gym: using the pinch and slide method. The guy working at the gym spazzed out on me and tried to demonstrate how dangerous this method was by having me belay for him while he deliberately jumped off without warning just as I had the strands parallel. As you might guess, no rope went through the device because all it takes is a decent grip as you lock off to make a normal catch. I thought the whole episode was pretty funny, but I still switched and now no longer use (or teach) the pinch and slide method. The American's method of belaying in gyms is one of the stupidest thing ever existed on the surface of the earth. Holding both hands up in the air in parallel way or even 6" above the belay device is asking for problem. There is no fuc*ing way a climber could stop a leader fall that fast without feeding several feed of rope thru belay device. Also to mention that many beginners will end up burning their hands while stopping the leader from decking.
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jt512
May 8, 2010, 4:34 AM
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majid_sabet wrote: The American's method of belaying in gyms is one of the stupidest thing ever existed on the surface of the earth. Holding both hands up in the air in parallel way or even 6" above the belay device is asking for problem. There is no fuc*ing way a climber could stop a leader fall that fast without feeding several feed of rope thru belay device. Also to mention that many beginners will end up burning their hands while stopping the leader from decking. You're wrong on two points. The "method" in the video is not the Americans' nor anyone else's method of belaying. Secondly, any well-trained belayer could lock off in time to stop a fall if their partner fell while they were holding the ropes parallel. Jay
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milesenoell
May 8, 2010, 10:16 AM
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majid_sabet wrote: milesenoell wrote: jt512 wrote: milesenoell wrote: majid_sabet wrote: desertwanderer81 wrote: majid_sabet wrote: In reply to: My speculation is that he had the rope strands parallel to feed slack and I fell in that very moment. Once the rope was in motion it was too late. This is one of the reasons why i hate parallel belaying method more than anything else in climbing cause at that given moment , if you take a fall, the rope will slip thru the belay device and you will end up with rope burn. Either way, do not blame yourself for this accident. A leader does not have to yell while falling. its always the delayer's responsibility to be alert with or without verbal communication. What the heck is a "parallel belay method" ? is not what the heck but what the fuck. see the retard who is teaching how to belay on this film. When both ropes are parallel during taking slack, if the leader takes a fall, rope will zip thru belayer hand .this method should be banned from all gyms and whoever came up with it should be hanged to the nearest tree. http://www.ehow.com/...5_belay-climber.html [IMG]http://www.picfury.com/2n/img/ScreenHunter_01 May 07 1634-1.jpg[/IMG] What an utterly ridiculous way to belay. It does however point out an interesting point, which is that even with terrible technique, you can catch most falls with little more than a good firm grip. The video points out nothing of the sort. First of all, the climber is only toproping. Secondly, the belayer does not demonstrate that he can catch a fall using this technique. In reply to: The whole "your gonna die if you ever have the strands parallel" is a bit extreme. That's true, but not for the reason you state. You can't expect to be able to hold a fall with the strands parallel. However, if the climber falls while you're holding the strands parallel, if you are a competent belayer, then you can lock off quickly, and thus stop the fall. That's why the pinch-and-slide method is safe in the hands of a competent belayer. However, there is no reason to maintain the ropes in a parallel position, as depicted in the video. Even if using the pinch-and-slide method, the ropes need only be kept parallel briefly during each belay cycle. Jay I seem to have been unclear in my earlier post. I did not mean to say that the video demonstrated my point entirely. I was saying that if a climber professing to have 16 years of climbing and teaching was still using and teaching this method then it would seem to be sufficient, as one assumes that in all those years he has been catching falls successfully or he would not be teaching this method. Similarly, the pinch and slide method of belaying has a similar weakness, but I have never had a problem with people belaying me like that because a reasonably firm grip (and decent reflexes) buy you plenty of time to get into the locked off position during a fall, even if the fall happens when the strands are parallel. I had my own funny experience with this when climbing at a gym in Germany. I was belaying as I had originally been taught in an American gym: using the pinch and slide method. The guy working at the gym spazzed out on me and tried to demonstrate how dangerous this method was by having me belay for him while he deliberately jumped off without warning just as I had the strands parallel. As you might guess, no rope went through the device because all it takes is a decent grip as you lock off to make a normal catch. I thought the whole episode was pretty funny, but I still switched and now no longer use (or teach) the pinch and slide method. The American's method of belaying in gyms is one of the stupidest thing ever existed on the surface of the earth. Holding both hands up in the air in parallel way or even 6" above the belay device is asking for problem. There is no fuc*ing way a climber could stop a leader fall that fast without feeding several feed of rope thru belay device. Also to mention that many beginners will end up burning their hands while stopping the leader from decking. One thing about a fall is that it's not instantaneous. The harder the hit, the more time the climber takes building up that momentum, and the more time the belayer has to react and lock off. Or alternately the fall is shorter, but less severe.
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ClimbClimb
May 8, 2010, 3:12 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: The American's method of belaying in gyms is one of the stupidest thing ever existed on the surface of the earth. Holding both hands up in the air in parallel way or even 6" above the belay device is asking for problem. There is no fuc*ing way a climber could stop a leader fall that fast without feeding several feed of rope thru belay device. Also to mention that many beginners will end up burning their hands while stopping the leader from decking. Majid, which method do you think is best, the European two-handed-shuffle? Also, I tend to use slightly different techniques when belaying leader vs. top-roping. Maybe there are bette ways, always interested in understanding better.
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majid_sabet
May 9, 2010, 5:11 PM
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ClimbClimb wrote: majid_sabet wrote: The American's method of belaying in gyms is one of the stupidest thing ever existed on the surface of the earth. Holding both hands up in the air in parallel way or even 6" above the belay device is asking for problem. There is no fuc*ing way a climber could stop a leader fall that fast without feeding several feed of rope thru belay device. Also to mention that many beginners will end up burning their hands while stopping the leader from decking. Majid, which method do you think is best, the European two-handed-shuffle? Also, I tend to use slightly different techniques when belaying leader vs. top-roping. Maybe there are bette ways, always interested in understanding better. honestly , my own method is among the top in feeding rope or stopping a climber's fall. I will post some photos on how I do it and I am willing to challenge anyone method on non auto-locking belay devices .
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majid_sabet
May 9, 2010, 5:12 PM
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wiki wrote: majid_sabet wrote: The American's method of belaying in gyms is one of the stupidest thing ever existed on the surface of the earth. No, no it isn't. There is a climbing gym nearby to me that teaches an "over the shoulder" way of belaying. (I think they invented it ) That, IMO is much stupider. I will not climb there because I can't watch it. I feel safer to belay using Curt's foot method over any American gym's methods.
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Gabel
May 11, 2010, 10:12 AM
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Hei, Day 13 and my recovery is going well so far. My back is awesome and even the pain in my heels is getting less and less. I want to try top roping soon. Thank you so much for your messages. Rob, thank you too for your wise insights! I would love to hear more about your recovery. Here is a picture of his right hand: No idea what he was doing. The left hand shows no significant marks but a few that indicate he tried to grab the running rope but failed. One speculation might be that his right hand was too close to the belay device and got pulled into the device along with the rope. Any thoughts? Take care, Gabriel
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j_ung
May 11, 2010, 3:16 PM
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jt512 wrote: majid_sabet wrote: The American's method of belaying in gyms is one of the stupidest thing ever existed on the surface of the earth. Holding both hands up in the air in parallel way or even 6" above the belay device is asking for problem. There is no fuc*ing way a climber could stop a leader fall that fast without feeding several feed of rope thru belay device. Also to mention that many beginners will end up burning their hands while stopping the leader from decking. You're wrong on two points. The "method" in the video is not the Americans' nor anyone else's method of belaying. Secondly, any well-trained belayer could lock off in time to stop a fall if their partner fell while they were holding the ropes parallel. Jay Majid said, "American's," not "Americans'." The video stooge has on a Rockquest shirt. That's in Cincinnati, I think. The only question is whether you f-ed up the apostrophe or he did. Oh. Right. Nevermind.
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j_ung
May 11, 2010, 3:17 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: wiki wrote: majid_sabet wrote: The American's method of belaying in gyms is one of the stupidest thing ever existed on the surface of the earth. No, no it isn't. There is a climbing gym nearby to me that teaches an "over the shoulder" way of belaying. (I think they invented it ) That, IMO is much stupider. I will not climb there because I can't watch it. I feel safer to belay using Curt's foot method over any American gym's methods. ANY gym? That's a pretty bold statement.
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milesenoell
May 13, 2010, 6:12 PM
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Gabel wrote: Hei, Day 13 and my recovery is going well so far. My back is awesome and even the pain in my heels is getting less and less. I want to try top roping soon. Thank you so much for your messages. Rob, thank you too for your wise insights! I would love to hear more about your recovery. Here is a picture of his right hand: [image]http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/3616/dsc03290d.jpg[/image] No idea what he was doing. The left hand shows no significant marks but a few that indicate he tried to grab the running rope but failed. One speculation might be that his right hand was too close to the belay device and got pulled into the device along with the rope. Any thoughts? Take care, Gabriel That rope burn is even and shallow, and looks to me like normal rope burn rather than a nip from a pinch.
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lena_chita
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May 13, 2010, 8:27 PM
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milesenoell wrote: Gabel wrote: Hei, Day 13 and my recovery is going well so far. My back is awesome and even the pain in my heels is getting less and less. I want to try top roping soon. Thank you so much for your messages. Rob, thank you too for your wise insights! I would love to hear more about your recovery. Here is a picture of his right hand: No idea what he was doing. The left hand shows no significant marks but a few that indicate he tried to grab the running rope but failed. One speculation might be that his right hand was too close to the belay device and got pulled into the device along with the rope. Any thoughts? Take care, Gabriel That rope burn is even and shallow, and looks to me like normal rope burn rather than a nip from a pinch. But the location of the burn is very strange... if he were trying to grab the rope and stop the fall, it would have been on his palm. If the hang gets pulled into the belay device, it is usally the flap of skin between the thumb and the forefinger that gets hurt. I am hypothesizing that his brake (right) hand was up above the belay device, with active strand and the brake strand close and parallel to each other, while he was attempting to slide/switch hand on the brake, and that part of the right hand was touching the active side of the rope. When the climber fell, the climber's side of the rope started sliding along his hand, burning him, and that caused him to let go with the brake hand.
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ClimbClimb
May 13, 2010, 8:56 PM
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lena_chita wrote: I am hypothesizing that his brake (right) hand was up above the belay device, with active strand and the brake strand close and parallel to each other, while he was attempting to slide/switch hand on the brake, and that part of the right hand was touching the active side of the rope. When the climber fell, the climber's side of the rope started sliding along his hand, burning him, and that caused him to let go with the brake hand. I was also thinking that this kind of burn pattern is hard to visualize with anything other than the European "switching-hands" technique, Your much more thought-through explanation seems like it fits the facts well -- including the idae that the belayer was probably taking extra slack at the top when the fall occured.
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Gabel
May 24, 2010, 9:58 AM
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Just thought I'd post a quick update. Tomorrow will be four weeks since my accident. My recovery is going great. Back is almost as good as ever and my heels are slowly forgetting what they've been through. I went bouldering (i.e. traversing just above the pads) from day 14 on and I have been TRing (almost up to my lead level) in said gym two times last week. Starting up wasn't very difficult headwise, but weighting the rope at the top gave me a good shot of adrenaline every time. That's the moment I feel I am losing my bit of control over the situation. Nonetheless, it is so great to be back and I am happy and grateful every time I'm in the gym. I am eager to start leading in a few days. Take care, Gabriel
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ClimbClimb
May 24, 2010, 12:53 PM
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Gabriel, it is really happy news to hear your'e doing so well with your recovery and return to climbing. Best wishes for continued improvement!
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rgold
May 24, 2010, 2:47 PM
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I'm with Jay; a competent belayer can lock off when a fall occurs regardless of their hand position at the moment of falling. But perhaps this is a contentless assertion, merely serving to define what is meant by competence? I do see some pinch & sliders in the gym who don't look as if their are likely to catch any possible fall; typically, they have their pinching hand up way too high. And I have some sympathy for Magid's position, in the sense that pinch & slide (with the palm up) comes from the hip belay, where it makes perfect sense, and isn't well-adapted to the nature of ATC devices. Those of us who use double ropes are pretty much obliged to use pinch & slide with the palm up, in spite of its lock-off defects.
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billcoe_
Jun 17, 2010, 2:06 PM
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Gabel wrote: My name is Gabriel and I am a gumby. Oh, the irony. The irony! How could _I_ have prevented this fall? 1. Listen to myself and act accordingly. 2. Have my belayer use a grigri. 3. Always announce fall training. I know the belayer is supposed to arrest the fall but why take the risk? 4. Have my belayer take when I finish a climb and grab the rope for backup. I suspect that you have missed the most important part. Never climb with a noob. If you go and spend time training a noob, thats OK as long as you are not a noob yourself, in which case you have no business doing it. What I see over and over is that climbers, often beginners, find others like them to belay them. Then it goes bad. Over and over and over. Rgold, JT, myself and our ilk would never drop you under any circumstance. ANY. We would have competence with any device we used or we would not use it. You may have had the most skilled guy in the gym, but I suspect the reverse is true. Your partner screwed up. Period. The belayers job is to catch each and every fall, and should catch all that are sudden and unannounced. 99% is truely NO GOD. 100%, and it's critical, as you know. For myself, I no longer climb with anyone who doesn't have 2 solid years climbing outside. Period. It doesn't eliminate being dropped, but it reduces the chances. Good luck and Heal up!
(This post was edited by billcoe_ on Jun 17, 2010, 2:07 PM)
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dingus
Jun 17, 2010, 3:02 PM
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billcoe_ wrote: Rgold, JT, myself and our ilk I see what you did there. DMT
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billcoe_
Jun 17, 2010, 8:49 PM
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LOL, nice catch: you're in that heap too Dingus:-) Left handed - right handed, any device, scrunched up on a shitassed belay stance that a bird would be complaining about we will catch that fall. Every time. No? It's new people. They learn at the gym, and no one is emphasizing that another's very life is in your hands and that no other duty is important. They get the "put your hands here and do this" riff and the "teacher" calls it a day. ____________________________________________ The few times I've broadened my partners for local toproping I've posted this disclaimer on another climbing site and caught some crap for it: "From last year: the much ridiculed and slightly modified "Terms and conditions" or disclaimer, or early season heads up. Hi all: Sunshine, finally. Looking forward to this. Short technical note: I figure that posting my rant thing here for everybody, just once, might be better than PMing everyone. As it’s a new year, with new folks, I want to restate my terms and conditions. Sorry if you heard this before. I don’t know the skill levels of people who will randomly just be showing up to hang, climb and belay so I’ll repeat. I only have 1 major issue. Safety. As such, I give and expect 100 percent perfect belays. 100 percent perfect means: good communication, ground checks for every climber/belayer, and brake hand on the rope ground to ground round trip for any climber off the deck who thinks they are on, or should be on, belay. If you've ever seen a person dropped by their belayer, you witnessed a less than perfect belay. Might have been a 99 percenter, hard to say, but it was less than 100 percent. 1 really don't give a rats ass if you can out climb me, welcome to a huge club if like most people you can. I don't care. I don't want to hear anyone say it's just top roping or short climbs either. I choose to be safe and as part of that refuse to climb with anyone who expects to do less. If you don’t like what I’m saying here, don’t show up. Last year the rescue crews were called out for 10 cliff incidents, most in the area we will be in. Every Fucking one of which was avoidable, except that somebody chose to not be safe. Don’t think this can’t or won’t happen to you. I once carried out one of the most experienced Oregon climbers who had just finished the easy White Rabbit 5.3 down climb and while turning on relatively flat ground, banana-peeled on the wet mud and seriously pitched. The hospital stay was like a month or so with the broken ribs, punctured lungs, surgery to remove the spleen and permanent pins added to the wrist a week into the stay with more surgery. No one is immune and it’s a choice we can make. I free solo out here sometimes and it always shocks and surprised that rare person who sees me toping out - I’m fine with you doing so too, best not this time of year with this group please, let’s let it dry out and clean off some. I don’t want to teach belays either. If you don’t have your Sh*T together, don’t come out expecting that somebody will help you to get it together. Make arrangements with somebody else some other time, I’d rather solo. I like to get set up efficiently and rapidly to get maximum time to get pumped. That might mean running up 3 laps in a row without untying and/or down climbing. Given the time constraints, it’s not a good time to be dogging a route unless you have a belayer who’s toasted out and done in, and nobody is standing at the base: rock shoes on foot tapping hoping for another shot before dark. You want to smoke a bowl or drink some beers, pretty common and fine by me, stay in control and don’t get sparks on my rope or (more) glass on the ground is all I've ever asked. If you haven’t choked and blown spit on your screen due to my arrogance thus far heres some more: Communication from the top to the bottom can very difficult anywhere we head, the big three from closest to furthest is RButte, Broughtons and Ozone. Specifics at the Butte: there is some white water rapids or something further below at the butte, and the continued roaring sound never abates and is very difficult to overcome. The hand signal for advising a belayer that you are over the edge, tied in safe and can be taken off belay is a wave of the hand for instance. Planning the hand signals in advance is a good idea. If my finger points down and makes a circular motion after I've topped out, that means please lower me. A fist means stop. Might want to clean some crap off so your trip up is cleaner, or perhaps re-climb a section that felt particularly great or difficult. As there is plenty of slippery wet mud early in the year, leaves and winter moss buildup, safety rules no matter where we are. Tieing a fixed line off a fir and rap to the ledge below even if it's an easy downclimb in the summer may be not just appropriate but smart. It might be dry, but probably not. Bringing headlamps anywhere we wind up isn't a bad idea either, and it can give us a bit more climbing time. I have beater rope and don’t mind getting sap on it. You show up and see a rope tied to a fir, feel free to rap on it as it's probably mine, don’t feel the need to ask permission if you don't see anyone, we're all climbers here. Side note about Rocky Butte: out there it's common to see a single party have 2, 3 or 4 climbs set up, tradition is that you can climb on their ropes. Nice to ask first. If you feel insecure on a single line rap and want a fireman’s belay, glad to do it, flip the rope around till some inquiring person at the base walks over below you and looks up, point or shout and we’ll pull on it to slow you down if you have a crappy rap device and/or hate single rope raps. Tossing an identical sized 2nd carabiner in most atc devices helps slow you down too. Conversely, if you want to lead or not lead but just follow or TR, thats good as well. For the Butte, it had been a active rock quarry, many of the anchors are into large blocks. We had a winter with some freezing; I always, but especially now, like to back up all the anchors with a backup rope tied solid to a fir or a rock further back. I have plenty of sections of retired ropes to do this. Bring your climbing ropes and personal gear, some lockers and such if you have it. Should be plenty of gear and ropes if you don’t own that stuff, so no worries. There are still some blocks at Ozone that may have done the freeze thaw thing as well. Rapping off, before hand communication with the base and trundling is an accepted practice as long as you have cleared the area before hand, and having a walkie takie or cell phone conversation isn't a bad idea if the rock is bigger than a fist and you think it's going to be headstrong and go it's own way. Someone needs to pry the microwave sized sucker off the 5.7 in the center of Ozone sooner or later, might as well be you, and sooner, not later, and planned. Have a warm jacket and water in your pack too, as soon as the sun goes down it's cold. If you want some early season warm up bouldering, you might drive to the top of the butte and jump on some of the short man-made stuff up there. It's pretty good. Have fun, be safe. PS, 2-4 is a great number of folks, I usually bag off if I see lots of cars and it's a big group, please don't be offended if that occurs. It's me, not you, sometimes for no apparent reason I will just walk past you to be solo just because I want to get my freak on alone. It's me, not you. "
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bill413
Jun 18, 2010, 1:01 PM
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billcoe_ wrote: The few times I've broadened my partners for local toproping I've posted this disclaimer on another climbing site and caught some crap for it: "From last year: the much ridiculed and slightly modified "Terms and conditions" or disclaimer, or early season heads up.... Applause.
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Gabel
Jan 14, 2011, 11:49 PM
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Just got asked about my injury and thought I would share it with everyone:
In reply to: Hei ***, Sorry to hear about your injury. Did you deck like I did? The most important thing to know is that there is most probably a way back to climbing and a healthy body. Now it is almost 8 months since my injury and I live like I did before. The climbing is different, obviously and in fact I almost solely do bouldering now. This of course, is a 'mental' injury. I imagine, though, that your question is about the medical side of the injury. My L1 compression fracture was a minor one and could be treated conservatively - i.e. no surgery. The front side of the vertebrae got impressed by about 0,5cm and still is. The thing about vertebrae is that there is no way they can "grow back in shape" or something because the pressure on them is too high. A few days after my injury there was hardly any pain in my back and just some swelling left. The following months I used to be stiff and it started to hurt when I sat for too long. Most of this was caused by a muscular deficiency, due to my back muscles being contracted like a bitch for almost a week. The day after the accident every muscle in my body felt sore. I used to describe it by saying that it felt like 6 guys hitting me with baseball bats. Sitting by the way is the stuff you don't want to do, because the pressure on your vertebrae is the highest. Standing or lying is the best. I slowly started bouldering/traversing again and also PT. I now go to the gym twice a week and actually even do deadlifts and managed to pull 1.5 times my body weight just a week ago. But you should really be careful with your fracture for about 6 to 8 weeks, and refrain from any bigger stress (for example, deadlifts) for at least 6 months. My biggest problem in recovery were my heels, which hurt with _every_ step I took for a month, but since you did not ask about that I hope your heels are allright. Take care and take it slowly. Listen to your body. Climb when you want to. Gabriel Take care guys!
(This post was edited by Gabel on Jan 15, 2011, 12:01 AM)
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j_ung
Jan 15, 2011, 1:53 PM
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I'm reminded of a friend of mine, who shall remain nameless. I met this guy when he was prolly around 10 or 11 years old when he and his father and brother began to frequent a climbing gym I managed. He was one of those kids you watch climb early on and think, "That kid's got talent. If he keeps climbing, he'll go places." Over the the course of a couple years I watch him evolve into a one of the hardest climbers at the gym, just like I thought he might, and then... the unthinkable happened. His belayer f-ed up, he decked and, if I recall correctly, broke an arm pretty badly. It took a long time for him to come back, but come back he did. Eventually, he was climbing hard again. Then it happened again. This time, instead of bouncing right back, he drifted away from climbing. I don't blame him. The poor kid cratered twice. It should never happen even once. Years passed and he didn't really climb much at all in that time. We saw him occasionally. One day, he came in to boulder and stayed all day, just like he used to. He commented to me how much he missed it, but that he didn't think he'd ever climb on a rope again. The kid was, like 16. How terrible to be so turned off by climbing at such a young age! But, he stuck with it simply because his love of the sport eventually proved to be greater than his fear of it. Now he lives in San Fran, works as head setter at one of the mega gyms, has a few Yos walls under his belt and climbs harder and tradier than ever before. That's how you get over an accident. You give your head all the time it needs, and if your love of climbing is better than your fear, you'll make it back. If not, so what?
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notapplicable
Jan 16, 2011, 12:18 AM
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It seems to me that an accident "caused" by someone else would be much harder to get over psychologically. You can be discerning in your partner selection, you can triplecheck everything before you leave the ground and you yourself can perform flawlessly but when it comes right down to it, that other person is out of your control and it already happened once, so it could happen again...right?
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ClimbSoHigh
Jan 17, 2011, 8:07 PM
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I fucking hate this websites spell check, somehow I always click back by accident and loose all of what I typed. This shit is going out with typos!!!!! Second try... To Gabriel
In reply to: Please excuse my English since I am not a native speaker Don't worry about it, you have very good english for a second language. My fiance is a HS teacher and just got a Freshman this year who could not recite the alphabet... To Billcoe
In reply to: You want to smoke a bowl or drink some beers, pretty common and fine by me, stay in control and don’t get sparks on my rope or (more) glass on the ground is all I've ever asked. You seem like a cool dude, wish more people with this mentality frequented my cliffs. I guess the west coast is more lax about this kind of stuff than out east. Back when I used to smoke at the crags, people would either look at me like I was a lepper, or come try and mooch a drag. Never once did someone tell me to just make sure I didn't spark on their rope. Good style. All I would add is to recomend people bring cans not bottles, that way they can't break one and can't leave shards of glass. I love me some after climbing beers, but I think the glass should not be at the crag (or pools and beaches), that shit hurts and I'm sick of pulling glass out of my hands and feet!Flappers are lame, but getting one from a beer bottle is extra lame.
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healyje
Jan 17, 2011, 11:10 PM
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As billcoe_ basically states, decking should NEVER happen - EVER. Period. End of story. That multiple people here can post up here saying they decked or have seen someone deck or know someone who decked is just plain frightening. It also tells you: a) The general demographic is out of control b) Gyms feed a large baseline load of new people into the demographic each year c) Learning protocols experienced in gyms are wholly inadequate relative to their throughput d) A lot of folks are climbing who shouldn't be What we have going on is climbing is becoming part of mainstream culture and experience. This trend exists because gyms are now common enough in each city of any size to act as an both an 'engine' and 'market' for media's increasing use of the imagery. But the problem with promoting climbing as just another [entitled] form of risk-free, suburban entertainment for all is gravity is both uncooperative and uncompromising. And now that climbing has a social presence, economic motive, and easy access, we've inconspicuously put Darwin hard to work and are turning a blind eye to that fact. In the end the ugly truth is there is no other way to sustain the current demographic [throughput / tidal flow] without threads like these. It's no different then the cost in injuries and deaths we accept as a society in order to drive automobiles. And it should be noted the type of belay device is wholly irrelevant to belaying safety. In particular note the paradox that while a grigri MIGHT have prevented any given person's decking, their use is generally involved in a majority of deckings. [ P.S. Yes, Darwin has always played a role in climbing, but he's never had to punch a clock and work the amount of overtime he is nowdays... ]
(This post was edited by healyje on Jan 18, 2011, 3:03 AM)
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david7896
Jan 18, 2011, 12:55 AM
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hey great post. i had fell about a month ago broke both feet. the heals were the worst part, so i know what your going through. im seven day away from get my left cast cut off. the psychological effects i can also relate too. i hope to climb again. but i find myself looking at others climbing and i can feel my heart rate increase and i feel nervous. i know its all in my head, and i will just have to get out there and get over it. (probably easier said then done) but i hope you recover fast and just keep on climbing.
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spikeddem
Jan 20, 2011, 4:39 PM
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healyje wrote: As billcoe_ basically states, decking should NEVER happen - EVER. Period. End of story. Hmm. I don't get that. Broken holds before a bolt or before a second bolt with decking potential. Broken holds before a first placement. A surprisingly soaked clipping hold that involves a bit of a move (for the grade) to get to. Bats, snakes, prickly vegetation can all reasonably cause a climber to peel off before a belay can really be set.
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healyje
Jan 20, 2011, 4:43 PM
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spikeddem wrote: healyje wrote: As billcoe_ basically states, decking should NEVER happen - EVER. Period. End of story. Hmm. I don't get that. ... ...before a belay can really be set. The comments were made in the context of once a person is actually on belay, i.e. has clipped the first piece of pro. Prior to that a belayer should be spotting if on the ground and hoping for the best if not.
(This post was edited by healyje on Jan 20, 2011, 4:44 PM)
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ClimbSoHigh
Jan 20, 2011, 4:46 PM
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Random story about mainstream climbing... I needed a piece of paper to break something up on a coupel nights ago, so I ripped out a random page of ads from the back of a Maxim. As I was doing my thing, I noticed that the page had Tommy Caldwell on it... WTF? It was an ad for that perfect pull up thing, which looks like a piece of crap overpriced pullup bar (that twists... ooooooooo!) which I would think most climbers do not use, as hang boards and rock rings are way better to train with. I think it's cool that climbers can support themselves these days through sponserships, promos, and advertising, but it shocked me to see Tommy doing ads outside of the climbing nich. I know Sharma and others do some mainstream adds, but I was supprised to see Tommy, also breaking into mainstream media/advertising. The gyms definately are a serious driving factor, but the pro's are also responsble for the media's increasing use of immagery, since they are selling their photo's to anyone who will pay them. I don't blame them for doing so, but it also promotes climbing to mainstream society. Buy this pull up device and you can climb rocks... So it's not only the gyms, but also the pro's and their sponsers. And billcoe and healyje are spot on that decking should not happen, but there are few exceptions. Decking when someone falls before the first pro happens and is part of leading (unless you stick clip for sport), and some climbs have ledges that you can hit no matter how solid your gear or belay is. In these situations the mentaility is "be solid at the grade and don't fall", but then again nobody would deck if they didn't fall. Boulderers technically deck any time they fall. Decking due to climber/belayer error should never happen, and missuse of a belay device seems to be the cause way too often. Shoddy 2 hour belay courses taught by HS gym rats in addition to the false idea that gri gri's are idiot proof seem to be a logical reason why decking is more prevelant and happens, even when lowering!
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bearbreeder
Jan 20, 2011, 4:55 PM
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decking can still happen ... pro can fail, there are some climbs where the 2nd bolt is poorly placed and decking is a very possible, there is only one bolt on the slab per pitch, you could hit a ledge, etc ... on a well bolted climb ... decking shouldnt happen after the first clip ...
(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Jan 20, 2011, 4:56 PM)
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dynosore
Jan 20, 2011, 5:34 PM
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Good grief, healyje's comment was clearly in the context of decking due to belayer error. You guys look for the tiniest things to rip apart....and healyje is right, there seems to be an atmosphere of "it happens" among a lot of climbers, none of whom I will EVER rope up with. If my belayer ever let me deck, they best hope I'm incapacitated.
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lrossi
Jan 20, 2011, 5:44 PM
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ClimbSoHigh wrote: Random story about mainstream climbing... I needed a piece of paper to break something up on a coupel nights ago, so I ripped out a random page of ads from the back of a Maxim. As I was doing my thing, I noticed that the page had Tommy Caldwell on it... WTF? It was an ad for that perfect pull up thing, which looks like a piece of crap overpriced pullup bar (that twists... ooooooooo!) which I would think most climbers do not use, as hang boards and rock rings are way better to train with. I think it's cool that climbers can support themselves these days through sponserships, promos, and advertising, but it shocked me to see Tommy doing ads outside of the climbing nich. I know Sharma and others do some mainstream adds, but I was supprised to see Tommy, also breaking into mainstream media/advertising. The gyms definately are a serious driving factor, but the pro's are also responsble for the media's increasing use of immagery, since they are selling their photo's to anyone who will pay them. I don't blame them for doing so, but it also promotes climbing to mainstream society. Buy this pull up device and you can climb rocks... So it's not only the gyms, but also the pro's and their sponsers. And billcoe and healyje are spot on that decking should not happen, but there are few exceptions. Decking when someone falls before the first pro happens and is part of leading (unless you stick clip for sport), and some climbs have ledges that you can hit no matter how solid your gear or belay is. In these situations the mentaility is "be solid at the grade and don't fall", but then again nobody would deck if they didn't fall. Boulderers technically deck any time they fall. Decking due to climber/belayer error should never happen, and missuse of a belay device seems to be the cause way too often. Shoddy 2 hour belay courses taught by HS gym rats in addition to the false idea that gri gri's are idiot proof seem to be a logical reason why decking is more prevelant and happens, even when lowering! I can't believe I read that. WTF does that have to do with the analysis of this particular accident?
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ClimbSoHigh
Jan 21, 2011, 2:22 PM
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In reply to: I can't believe I read that. WTF does that have to do with the analysis of this particular accident? Your right, not much... but your post has absolutely nothing to do with the accident... It was just a random story about climbing becoming mainstream, in response to a post about people decking in gyms due to climbing becoming mainstream, in a thread about someone decking in a gym. I'm not claiming my posts are great, infact they usually are just me rambling, but I'm more on topic (barely) than your post.
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jt512
Jan 21, 2011, 4:09 PM
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ClimbSoHigh wrote: In reply to: I can't believe I read that. WTF does that have to do with the analysis of this particular accident? Your right... You're: a contraction of "you are." It's not that hard. Really. Jay
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spikeddem
Jan 21, 2011, 4:34 PM
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jt512 wrote: ClimbSoHigh wrote: In reply to: I can't believe I read that. WTF does that have to do with the analysis of this particular accident? Your right... You're: a contraction of "you are." It's not that hard. Really. Jay A large body body of emerging experimental evidence suggests otherwise, Jay. Theory doesn't always hold up to experiment.
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spikeddem
Jan 21, 2011, 4:36 PM
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In reply to: As billcoe_ basically states, decking should NEVER happen - EVER. Period. End of story.
dynosore wrote: Good grief, healyje's comment was clearly in the context of decking due to belayer error. You guys look for the tiniest things to rip apart....and healyje is right, there seems to be an atmosphere of "it happens" among a lot of climbers, none of whom I will EVER rope up with. If my belayer ever let me deck, they best hope I'm incapacitated. For how much we emphasize "it depends" on this site, for the words "NEVER happen - EVER. Period. End of story," I'm not so sure it was clear. I assumed that's what he meant, but that's why I made me post. To say "NEVER happen - EVER. Period. End of story" but have an implied context is kinda silly.
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ClimbSoHigh
Jan 21, 2011, 5:50 PM
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In reply to: You're: a contraction of "you are." It's not that hard. Really. Jay UR right, glad you caught it. It was a typo, but I'll never give in to spell check or proof reading. Don't need to since I have Jay to correct my work. Lets get this thread back on track, Gabriel doesn't need grammar lessons.
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billl7
Jan 21, 2011, 6:17 PM
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spikeddem wrote: In reply to: As billcoe_ basically states, decking should NEVER happen - EVER. Period. End of story. dynosore wrote: Good grief, healyje's comment was clearly in the context of decking due to belayer error. You guys look for the tiniest things to rip apart....and healyje is right, there seems to be an atmosphere of "it happens" among a lot of climbers, none of whom I will EVER rope up with. If my belayer ever let me deck, they best hope I'm incapacitated. For how much we emphasize "it depends" on this site, for the words "NEVER happen - EVER. Period. End of story," I'm not so sure it was clear. I assumed that's what he meant, but that's why I made me post. To say "NEVER happen - EVER. Period. End of story" but have an implied context is kinda silly. It's a rallying cry, like a past US president naming a few countries the "axis of evil". ... not expected to be an accurate phrase under just any specific belief system (context).
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Gabel
May 22, 2011, 7:22 PM
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Over one year since my accident. I went to Bleau with my brother the other day. He took a photograph after I finished a tricky boulder. I was looking down the way I just came up. When I zoomed in the picture I could see that there was something else. I was smiling. Take care.
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robdotcalm
May 23, 2011, 3:06 PM
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Wonderful to see that picture that says it all about your recovery. Keep on moving! Rob.calm
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Gabel
May 10, 2012, 6:58 PM
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+2 years. :-) I have missed the exact date, which is probably a good sign. I have stopped climbing entirely and am now trying to get to a somewhat decent total in one of the regional powerlifting comps...hehe. Meanwhile she is starting to aim for things with her tiny arms and grab them... Take care!
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dagibbs
May 14, 2012, 4:46 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: desertwanderer81 wrote: majid_sabet wrote: In reply to: My speculation is that he had the rope strands parallel to feed slack and I fell in that very moment. Once the rope was in motion it was too late. This is one of the reasons why i hate parallel belaying method more than anything else in climbing cause at that given moment , if you take a fall, the rope will slip thru the belay device and you will end up with rope burn. What the heck is a "parallel belay method" ? is not what the heck but what the fuck. see the retard who is teaching how to belay on this film. When both ropes are parallel during taking slack, if the leader takes a fall, rope will zip thru belayer hand .this method should be banned from all gyms and whoever came up with it should be hanged to the nearest tree. http://www.ehow.com/...5_belay-climber.html [IMG]http://www.picfury.com/2n/img/ScreenHunter_01 May 07 1634-1.jpg[/IMG] I travel a lot, and so go to a lot of different climbing gyms and often try to pick up a climbing/belay partner. I arrived at one gym, and saw lots of people belaying that way, and decided that I did NOT want to climb at that gym, and just bouldered. (I far prefer climbing routes to bouldering -- but even more so, I don't like being dropped.)
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billcoe_
May 24, 2012, 9:17 PM
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I love happy endings! Congratulations Gabriel!
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robdotcalm
May 25, 2012, 10:29 PM
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Gabel, It’s good to hear that you’ve recovered and are power lifting. I’m still climbing as indicated in my earlier post on this thread. Lifting was the essential factor in developing the strength and sturdiness needed to climb again. Especially important were the classic power moves: squats and dead lifts. So even though you’re not climbing now, your body will be ready if you decide to start again. Congratulations on your new child. She looks ready to go. In another 6 months you’ll be chasing after her as she tries to climb the furniture. With our 5 younger grandchildren living locally, I’m in a repeat stage of such activities (well, not quite, the kids are no longer toddlers, but they keep my wife and me busy in other ways). Cheers, Rob .calm
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