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mike_devildog


Jun 14, 2010, 6:35 AM
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Accident Kaymoor NRG
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I read about this in the paper online today..

http://www.dailymail.com/News/201006130301

Anyone know what truly happened and led to this accident? Prayers and thoughts out to the family!


Partner mr8615


Jun 14, 2010, 6:38 AM
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Re: [mike_devildog] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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Bump, ditto on the thoughts and positive energy.


dbogardus


Jun 14, 2010, 6:51 AM
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I heard about this at my local gym but not sure if it's the same accident, or even true, so this could be totally bogus.

Info I got was that she tried to clip into the top anchor but the biner was only through the rubber tip of a petzel spirit and not through the actual draw.

Personally, I dont know how that could happen at all (besides the fact she should be on belay the whole time while clipping) but I guess stranger things have happened.

In any case, thoughts go out to the family and friends.


bigjonnyc


Jun 14, 2010, 7:19 AM
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Re: [dbogardus] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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dbogardus wrote:
...but the biner was only through the rubber tip of a petzel spirit and not through the actual draw...

I don't think this is really feasible. If this were the case, I don't think the rubber piece and carabiner would stay on the draw while bouncing around on a harness, let alone when clipping a rope to it.


dbogardus


Jun 14, 2010, 7:25 AM
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Re: [bigjonnyc] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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bigjonnyc wrote:
dbogardus wrote:
...but the biner was only through the rubber tip of a petzel spirit and not through the actual draw...

I don't think this is really feasible. If this were the case, I don't think the rubber piece and carabiner would stay on the draw while bouncing around on a harness, let alone when clipping a rope to it.

I agree. I tried it out and it didnt even come close to staying on. Thought it was a odd that I heard that and then this thread appeared...

...although mentioning that probably started more confusion than needed.


newrivermike


Jun 14, 2010, 7:29 AM
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Re: [mike_devildog] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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This was a horribly tragic accident. Absolutely heartbreaking for the friends and family of the victim. Lets stop the speculation for just 10 minutes while I write up exactly my understanding of what happened. I think it's best to get "what happened" out of the way so we can move on to a post of thoughts and condolences. There is a big lesson to be learned from this accident. One that could potentially prevent this from happening again. Stand by.
Mike


mike_devildog


Jun 14, 2010, 7:30 AM
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Very well put Mike!

Peace and Gratitude


bigjonnyc


Jun 14, 2010, 7:35 AM
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Thanks Mike. I realized shortly after I posted my response how insensitive I was being just posting about the possibility of a speculated cause of the accident when the news was so fresh. My heart goes out to the family and friends of the victim and I'm truly sorry for this loss.


newrivermike


Jun 14, 2010, 8:02 AM
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Re: [newrivermike] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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Firstly, I wasn't there. Keep in mind that the only person at the anchor that actually knows what happened was the victim. There is always going to be a certain level of speculation with any accident analysis.

The climber was Karen Feher from Midlothian Va. She climbed to the anchor of Rico Suave and clipped in direct. Her setup: She had two thin dyneema slings girth hitched to her harness. At the end of each sling was a locking carabiner held in place with a rubber Petzl keeper, the kind they put on spirit draws. These are called 'Petzl Strings'. Google search it if you dont' know what I'm talking about.
She clipped a locker to each bolt and probably called off belay. I'm unclear if she was going to rappel or lower. It doesn't matter. She fell to the ground.

The day after the accident a local climber named Craig (last name?) climbed to the anchor and found a locker on each bolt with a Petzl String still affixed to each one. Both Petzl strings were torn on the side.

It is unclear to me if the two slings were still attached to her harness as her harness went with her and EMS but I am assuming this to be true.
OK, how could this happen? This is to me one of the safest setups for cleaning an anchor. My friend Kirk and I toyed around with slings and strings at home and found a scary scenario:

If you loop back over one side of the sling and clip it back through the carabiner it looks like it's OK, kind of. In reality the rubber string is the only thing holding weight.

At the top of Rico is a small ledge to stand on and clean. If you're not fully weighting the system these rubber strings will hold about 15 pounds before breaking. I'm guessing they were able to hold just enough weight to feign security while she untied to feed. Until just enough weight was added to break.
I know this is hard to visualize. It took us about 30 minutes to figure it out. Check out this video for a clear visual:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/videos/play.php?i=20

I don't know how to make it 'clicky'.
Again, there is some level of speculation but with the evidence at hand this seems to be the most likely scenario. Now sure it seems like this could be possible on one side but two?

This is where the tragedy truly lies. The fact that this happened on both slings simultaneously is one in a million. But think about it. We've got 1000's of people climbing in the gorge. People have been climbing here for 35 years and this is the first time someone has died climbing. We build redundency into our systems so that if something like this freak occurence happens on one sling we've got a back up. That's why we clip in to two bolts, with two slings!

If you've been climbing long enough something has happened where you've been like "whoa, that could have been bad" but you had a redundant system in place. Karen did have a redundant system. It seems to me that a freak occurence happened on both slings simultaneously.

Let's learn from this so it doesn't happen again. The lesson: Don't use rubber bands or strings on long runners. If you do, be aware of this situation. If you've got a friend that does, send them the video link.

The reason for this post is to dispell myths about what happened. Hopefully the friends and family of Karen can understand the need to educate climbers about this.


(This post was edited by edge on Jun 14, 2010, 9:17 AM)


newrivermike


Jun 14, 2010, 8:24 AM
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I tried to upload some photos of my test runners. The photos were too large and I don't know how to shrink them so I posted them on a blog.
Check the link:

http://www.mikesironcladbeta.blogspot.com


(This post was edited by edge on Jun 14, 2010, 9:17 AM)


Partner climboard


Jun 14, 2010, 8:25 AM
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Re: [newrivermike] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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First of all, my deepest condolences go out to the family and friends of this young woman. My thoughts and prayers are with you.

Mike- thanks for providing the details around this tragedy. I recall seeing this video shortly after it was posted online and remember being shocked by it as it was not an obvious safety risk before seeing it demonstrated.

I hope word gets out to more people about this potentially unsafe practice.


bigjonnyc


Jun 14, 2010, 8:32 AM
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Here is a safety notice I just found on String page of the Petzl website about this exact phenomenon:

http://www.petzl.com/us/node/9886


sethg


Jun 14, 2010, 8:37 AM
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What a terrible tragedy. I am so sorry. Thank you for the explanation and the warning.


chadnsc


Jun 14, 2010, 8:41 AM
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Thanks for the info Mike.

For people unfamiluar with the Petzl String:




lena_chita
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Jun 14, 2010, 8:45 AM
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What a tragedy! My thoughts are with family and friends.

When I came across the blurb in the new NRG guidebook about how NRG has had many close calls but no fatalities yet, I thought :"Oh, no, putting it out there i a sure way to jinx it." Silly, I know, jinx has nothing to do with it, it was only a matter of time, but I am very very sad to hear this...

Mike, thank you for a good analysis. I was not familiar with the strings, have never used them, but the blog photos/video link made it easy to understand.


ncrockclimber


Jun 14, 2010, 8:59 AM
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Mike,

Thanks for your clear and educational post.

My sincere condolences to the victims friends and family.


Partner robdotcalm


Jun 14, 2010, 9:12 AM
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Condolences to Karen’s family and friends on this grievous loss.

Thank you, Mike, for presenting the analysis and valuable links. I’ve never used a “string” though I’ve climbed with people who have. A lesson from this accident is that anytime you add an item to the safety chain you’ve added the possibility for something to go wrong. Keep it simple. Less is more.

Rob.calm


maldaly


Jun 14, 2010, 10:07 AM
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This is so sad. My thoughts and condolences go out to Karen, her family, all of her friends and the crew at the New. Be careful out there. There are so many ways to kill yourself.

Climb safe,
Mal


jt512


Jun 14, 2010, 10:18 AM
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newrivermike wrote:

If you loop back over one side of the sling and clip it back through the carabiner it looks like it's OK, kind of. In reality the rubber string is the only thing holding weight.

At the top of Rico is a small ledge to stand on and clean. If you're not fully weighting the system these rubber strings will hold about 15 pounds before breaking. I'm guessing they were able to hold just enough weight to feign security while she untied to feed. Until just enough weight was added to break.
I know this is hard to visualize. It took us about 30 minutes to figure it out. Check out this video for a clear visual:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/videos/play.php?i=20

I don't know how to make it 'clicky'.
Again, there is some level of speculation but with the evidence at hand this seems to be the most likely scenario. Now sure it seems like this could be possible on one side but two?

This is where the tragedy truly lies. The fact that this happened on both slings simultaneously is one in a million.

You are thinking of the cause of the slings being misconfigured as a random event, and so you conclude that the chances are 1 in a million. But I suspect that it is a mistake to think of this event as being random. Rather, I suspect that the slings became misconfigured due to systematic error. So, the question is what sort of systematic practice could have caused the slings to become so misconfigured?

One possibility is if she were carrying her slings doubled on her harness, and then to extend them, she unclipped a single strand. Sitting here trying this out, I find that it results in one of two configurations for the "Stringed" biner: either the biner becomes girth hitched, and probably would have been adequate, or the biner becomes configured as per your accident analysis (ie, it's just held to the sling by the String, in spite of superficial appearances). Assuming that these configurations are equally likely, the probability of both slings becoming configured in the failure configuration is just 1 in 4.

There are probably other scenarios that systematically lead to the failure configuration for "Stringed" biner. It would be worthwhile fleshing out what these other scenarios might be.

Jay


redlude97


Jun 14, 2010, 10:21 AM
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I know someone who uses a petzl string on the end loop of their PAS to make it easier to clip and unclip the extra loops. While I knew it wasn't the best idea I never realized it was that easy to end up with this configuration. Going to have to point them to this thread and that video


camhead


Jun 14, 2010, 10:26 AM
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Thanks for the info, Mike. I remember seeing the UK climbing video about the possible danger of the rubber bands/strings, and made a mental note never to use those on loose runners (as opposed to stiffer dogbones).

Anyway, condolences to Karen's family and climbing partners. This is terrible. RIP.


theguy


Jun 14, 2010, 11:12 AM
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newrivermike wrote:
She had two thin dyneema slings girth hitched to her harness

jt512 wrote:
One possibility is if she were carrying her slings doubled on her harness

Could you explain how you double girth-hitched slings?


ClimbClimb


Jun 14, 2010, 11:27 AM
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Oh, no! I remember watching that video some time ago. For some reason, it is doubly horrible to know that this was something weird -- but known ahead of time, even discussed here on RC.com.

My condolences to the family, friends and those involved in the event.


jt512


Jun 14, 2010, 11:27 AM
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Re: [theguy] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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theguy wrote:
newrivermike wrote:
She had two thin dyneema slings girth hitched to her harness

jt512 wrote:
One possibility is if she were carrying her slings doubled on her harness

Could you explain how you double girth-hitched slings?

No, but I can explain how to girth hitch a sling that was previously doubled, and then extended incorrectly.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 14, 2010, 11:33 AM)


billcoe_


Jun 14, 2010, 11:41 AM
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I had no idea....crap. 38 some years doing this and no f*ing clue. I have deep gratitude for you guys sharing this. It so sucks to lose someone over something so simple. Wish we all could have learned it by the video, but perhaps this re-dissemination of info has saved several lives.


NRG2Go


Jun 14, 2010, 11:45 AM
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It was raining on Saturday at Kaymoor. My buddy and I hiked back to Butcher's Branch and found a man trying to stay dry with his two young children. His wife and their two friends were trying to climb Low Voltage. We walked around to near Mo Betta Holds. Soon after they came over and the man who was climbing was thinking of doing the lower part of Mo Betta to stay out of the rain. The woman with him and the other woman seemed more interested in trying Rico Suave. The husband of the woman who died didn't want to climb in the rain and said he was taking the kids back to Roger's. We left at roughly the same time they hiked over to Rico.

The four adults all seemed very nice. The father was cute with the children. I am very saddened for the children and the father.


camhead


Jun 14, 2010, 11:48 AM
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Does anyone know if Karen was tied into the rope, and off belay, when she fell, or had she untied?


rickthompson


Jun 14, 2010, 12:33 PM
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Heard this tragic news from my longtime climbing partner Eric Horst this morning.....I'm heartbroken to now read the details, my thoughts and condolences go out to Karen's family, friends and loved ones. :( It makes me incredibly sad to think it happened on a route I did the first ascent of. Not sure how one squares up with such a sobering reality, but The Rico Suave Arete - a route Doug Reed and I named in pure jest - will never quite seem the same.

Mike, thank you for taking the time to post the incredibly valuable info. Hopefully it was save others from the same, potentially life-ending, mistake.

-rico


(This post was edited by rickthompson on Jun 14, 2010, 1:26 PM)


virginiapine


Jun 14, 2010, 12:53 PM
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You've been rigging rubber bands on your runners for almost 40 years?


tradmanclimbs


Jun 14, 2010, 1:30 PM
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Wow! super sad events.

a few things to think about.

Never girth hitch or tie knots with those skinny dynema/spectra slings. They can act like a wire saw and cut through themselfs or nylon.

Here is Something that I see folks do quite often that is super dangerous.

Leader gets to top of sport climb clips anchor and tells belayer that they are Off or clipped In even though the leader intends to Lower. They then tell the belayer to take and lower after they have rigged the lower. This sequence Beggs for disaster because the belayer feels like thay have been relieved from duty when they hear you yell Off or even clipped in. They then may become distracted with conversation, food, beverage, bug dope, etc. You mess something up and fall you now go splat or you lean back to lower and go splat.

If you intend to lower Never tell your belayer that you are off or even clipped in at the top. That is information that they do Not need to know and it is better that they do not know it. They should be keeping you on belay and not distracted by other needs just because they think you are safe. The only commands that they should get is . Slack! (while you rig the lower) take! (when you have finished riging the lower) and I am all yours, lower.

This may have nothing to do with the tragic accident at kaymoor but it feels like a good time to remind folks to be carefull of this sequence.


(This post was edited by tradmanclimbs on Jun 14, 2010, 4:01 PM)


jt512


Jun 14, 2010, 1:46 PM
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tradmanclimbs wrote:
Wow! super sad events.

If you want to fix dedicated biners to slings use hockey tape and wrap it through the biner and then back around the sling and then through the biner again and back around the sling. Dedicated biner is now fixed on the sling in a way that it can not get in a funky possition.

I don't see how that is an improvement over fixing the biner with a Petzl String. Clipping a single strand using the fixed biner can still result in unclipping from the sling, leaving the biner attached to the sling only by the tape.

Jay


rickthompson


Jun 14, 2010, 1:47 PM
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lena_chita wrote:
When I came across the blurb in the new NRG guidebook about how NRG has had many close calls but no fatalities yet......
Was talking with another longtime climbing partner - Bob Value - earlier today, who reminded me about a fatality a number of years ago at Bubba City. Well known Gunks climber Bill Ravitch was found dead at the base of one of the crags tangled up in his rope. Thoughts were that he had been either soloing or rappelling when the accident occurred. Trying to put a date on it, seems like it happened in the late 90s (?).


maldaly


Jun 14, 2010, 1:52 PM
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tradmanclimbs - that's great advise. If the leader is rigging to lower off there is no need at all for a signal from them until they are ready to lower. I watched it happen last time I was climbing in Vegas. Leader gets to the top, clips in and yells down to his belayer that he's off. Belayer confirms and takes him off and goes over to put on his shoes (or whatever). A minute later the leader yells down, "Ready to Lower" and comes within 3 seconds of decking.

Go to my blog (http://blog.trango.com/) where I posted method I use to rig a sport route that solves many problems. I'd love to hear what you think.
Mal


jt512


Jun 14, 2010, 1:54 PM
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maldaly wrote:
tradmanclimbs - that's great advise. If the leader is rigging to lower off there is no need at all for a signal from them until they are ready to lower. I watched it happen last time I was climbing in Vegas. Leader gets to the top, clips in and yells down to his belayer that he's off. Belayer confirms and takes him off and goes over to put on his shoes (or whatever). A minute later the leader yells down, "Ready to Lower" and comes within 3 seconds of decking.

Go to my blog (http://blog.trango.com/) where I posted method I use to rig a sport route that solves many problems. I'd love to hear what you think.
Mal

None of this has anything to do with the accident. Can we stay on point here?

Jay


tradmanclimbs


Jun 14, 2010, 1:58 PM
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jay. I did not see how my tape system could replicate by looking at the petzle sketch? I think I see what you mean but it would be very obvious. Simeler to clipping between the loops on a daisy.

I have been useing a dedicated sling with a taped biner on the end of it for close to 20 nyears and never been tempted to clip it back to itself that way?

The way that i tape it is quite stiff and big. tape goes down the sling a ways which would make the unclip trick look super obvious.

The obvious fix is to clove it to the biner before you tape it but that makes it too short. I did make the Gf clove hitch her daisy to it's biner..


(This post was edited by tradmanclimbs on Jun 14, 2010, 2:19 PM)


tradmanclimbs


Jun 14, 2010, 2:04 PM
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Jay, we do not know 100% if she was intending to lower or rap? If she was intending to lower and was still on belay when her slings failed she would have only taken a leader fall on to the top bolt.

If she was intending to rap then you are right. it has no bearing on this incident but it is a common mistake that is worth noting.


jt512


Jun 14, 2010, 2:20 PM
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tradmanclimbs wrote:
jay. I did not see how my tape system could replicate by looking at the petzle sketch? I think I see what you mean but it would be very obvious.

I just tried your system using athletic tape, and I think it actually makes the danger of clipping a single strand even less obvious than when using a Petzl String. There is no way you can tell that the biner is only attached to the string by the tape.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 14, 2010, 2:21 PM)


tradmanclimbs


Jun 14, 2010, 2:27 PM
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I will play arround with it when I get home. I am not useing skinny runner. Big fat runner and I can see the outline of it through the tape. I would not recomed this if someone else rigged it but rigging it myself i know which way it goes. that may make it a bad system but it has worked well for me for many years. Again with the way I have it taped it would look super messed up if you clipped it back on to itself and then tried to anchor with it.


aclimbinfool


Jun 14, 2010, 2:28 PM
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You couldn't have said it better for just meeting them. They were the type of Family that any climber would want to model themselves after. The climbed hard,smart,and put in the hours. But there dedication went beyond climbing and carried over into their family and local climbers who's lives Karen touched. She was the best mother and sewetest person,and never said anything bad about anybody. The climbing communtiy has lost a GREAT ONE and we will all miss her greatly. RIP Karen you will be missed.life is precious everyone so make sure the one's you love know it.


durangocraig


Jun 14, 2010, 2:51 PM
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Karen and I on Lurking Fear a few years back. Her incredible husband Jay took the photo as he left the belay.
We will miss you Karen.

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...nging_out_82448.html


newrivermike


Jun 14, 2010, 3:02 PM
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I am completely unable to figure out how to quote someone and then respond. I am an idiot....

Rick Thompson said:
Was talking with another longtime climbing partner - Bob Value - earlier today, who reminded me about a fatality a number of years ago at Bubba City. Well known Gunks climber Bill Ravitch was found dead at the base of one of the crags tangled up in his rope. Thoughts were that he had been either soloing or rappelling when the accident occurred. Trying to put a date on it, seems like it happened in the late 90s (?).

I say:
This is another horrific story entirely. Bill fell and died early on the morning of September 11, 2001. He was found at the base of the cliff with his haulbag still on his back. I believe (according to Roger) that the official report was that he slipped from the top of the cliff while hiking. Maybe trying to rig a rappel?
It was a rough day for Roger. He remembers hearing the news of the terror attacks and watching the aftermath on TV only to be interrupted by the NPS to go identify Bill.


(This post was edited by newrivermike on Jun 14, 2010, 3:16 PM)


majid_sabet


Jun 14, 2010, 3:05 PM
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very tragic accident and one of the worse I have seen in years. I guess, best thing is to get all those rubber holder out and throw them in the garbage bin. Attach two separate dedicated attachment cord ( sling,daisy. purcell...whatever) with two locking biner and use those to clip in to anchors , test and put your weight on the master point before disconnecting the life line from the belay.


rickthompson


Jun 14, 2010, 3:16 PM
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Mike, thanks for the clarification. Never heard all the details as it was a number of years after I had moved to Colorado, but Bob reminded me of it this morning when he called.


aclimbinfool


Jun 14, 2010, 3:44 PM
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Here's a photo of Karen and a good friend Patty at the base of Old Rag, Va. getting ready to climb Strawberry Fields. These women are strong. these two are labor and delivery nurse's. some of the strongest women I know.
Attachments: karen&patty.jpg (92.4 KB)


rockrat512


Jun 14, 2010, 3:49 PM
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I'd like to thank Mike too. While I never used it getting into the anchors, I being a bit height limited, did keep one long open sling rigged with a "string" for setting up reachy clips. First thing I did on the way home tonight was stop at the gym and broke it in front of everyone using the technique described. It stays open from now on and a lot of jaws hit the floor when I did it.

(This post was edited by rockrat512 on Jun 14, 2010, 3:55 PM)


Partner j_ung


Jun 14, 2010, 3:51 PM
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Just heard about this when I bumped into a friend at the grocery store. This is horrible news, and my thoughts are with Karen's loved ones.

Mods, could we maybe start a thread in In memory Of, to separate the well wishes from the analyses?


tradmanclimbs


Jun 14, 2010, 3:57 PM
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I whole heartedly agree that the thread should be split.

Jay, I see what you mean now about my system. I have it dialed and know that it can not be clipped incorectly but the average climber may miss that. i will edit my upthread post to remove that advice.


chester


Jun 14, 2010, 4:24 PM
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This is my first time posting on here but I had to say something since this is something I can relate to.

Could it be possible that the problem happened even before she left the ground? I mentioned this accident to someone and said something about the slim chances of both biners accidently looping back thru. He promptly put on his harness, stuck a couple of petzel rubber grips on two slings with biners and girth hitched them to his harness. As he went to clip the biners to the back of his harness there was enough slack in the slings that the biners (quite easily) looped back thru the sling.

At that point a light bulb went off. Often, when I girth hitch my slings before I climb, I'll get halfway up the route and notice one (and a few times both) of my slings dragging down. It's always been a mystery to me how this happened (I obviously wasn't thinking hard enough about how it would happen). They would be "attached" when I started (or so I thought). I don't use the petzel band on my long slings so it's never been an issue, but it certainly would have been if I had.


gblauer
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Jun 14, 2010, 4:27 PM
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My sincerest condolences to her family and friends. What a tragic loss.


jt512


Jun 14, 2010, 4:38 PM
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chester wrote:
This is my first time posting on here but I had to say something since this is something I can relate to.

Could it be possible that the problem happened even before she left the ground? I mentioned this accident to someone and said something about the slim chances of both biners accidently looping back thru. He promptly put on his harness, stuck a couple of petzel rubber grips on two slings with biners and girth hitched them to his harness. As he went to clip the biners to the back of his harness there was enough slack in the slings that the biners (quite easily) looped back thru the sling.

At that point a light bulb went off. Often, when I girth hitch my slings before I climb, I'll get halfway up the route and notice one (and a few times both) of my slings dragging down. It's always been a mystery to me how this happened (I obviously wasn't thinking hard enough about how it would happen). They would be "attached" when I started (or so I thought). I don't use the petzel band on my long slings so it's never been an issue, but it certainly would have been if I had.

You might be on to something.

Jay


csproul


Jun 14, 2010, 4:46 PM
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Is it also possible that the Petzl strings were just put on and were put on incorrectly? I'll have to grab a sling/string and see if it is possible to put it on incorrectly such that it looks ok but will not hold weight.


Partner climboard


Jun 14, 2010, 5:14 PM
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It would certainly be more likely to "miss" the runner with the biner if you were using a skinny Dyneema sling but I would think it would just pull out of the string and not tear it as was mentioned in the description earlier.

I think the most likely scenario is it got doubled through the biner.


sherpa79


Jun 14, 2010, 5:44 PM
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This is terrible. I just pulled one of those off of a friends sling yesterday. She had it installed correctly, but wanted to use the biner in the end for something else. She pulled it out leaving the String on the runner. I could see how you might clip into that incorrectly upon a later date.
They are useless devices in my opinion, but widely used. I'm just so sad that it resulted in a tragedy and not an opportunity to learn. Many of us have "learned" one thing or another as a result of a near miss. I count my blessings every time I hear about something like this. I am deeply saddened for Karen's family and especially her climbing partners. I hope that they can find some measure of peace.


ensonik


Jun 14, 2010, 6:06 PM
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jt512 wrote:
chester wrote:
This is my first time posting on here but I had to say something since this is something I can relate to.

Could it be possible that the problem happened even before she left the ground? I mentioned this accident to someone and said something about the slim chances of both biners accidently looping back thru. He promptly put on his harness, stuck a couple of petzel rubber grips on two slings with biners and girth hitched them to his harness. As he went to clip the biners to the back of his harness there was enough slack in the slings that the biners (quite easily) looped back thru the sling.

At that point a light bulb went off. Often, when I girth hitch my slings before I climb, I'll get halfway up the route and notice one (and a few times both) of my slings dragging down. It's always been a mystery to me how this happened (I obviously wasn't thinking hard enough about how it would happen). They would be "attached" when I started (or so I thought). I don't use the petzel band on my long slings so it's never been an issue, but it certainly would have been if I had.

You might be on to something.

Jay

+ 1

I just tested this out and it's all too easy to replicate. I can very easily see someone doing this accidentally more than once.


wmarkham


Jun 14, 2010, 6:47 PM
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jt512 wrote:
Assuming that these configurations are equally likely, the probability of both slings becoming configured in the failure configuration is just 1 in 4.
I agree that it is unsatisfying to suppose that each mis-configured sling an independent event with a 1-in-1000 chance of happening. But then again, a systematic error alone doesn't completely explain the accident either:

I suspect that most climbers, usually, test their anchor system with more than enough weight to break a Petzl STRING (Petzl appears to capitalize the product name) in this configuration, before committing to it. Given that, it seems to me that a climber who, due to any systematic mistake, is likely to put one of his anchor slings in that dangerous configuration is also fairly likely to discover that something is wrong with such a methodology while still on belay.

For that reason, it also seems rather important to note, as Mike did, that on Rico Suave in particular, one might be able to weight one's anchor system just enough to feel secure, but not enough to break the STRINGs.

Even allowing for the possibility of some systematic error on her part, I think that one also needs to also suppose that Karen adopted her flawed routine recently enough that she had not yet discovered this possibility. It seems more likely to me that there was a single reason why she did something unusual with both slings, just before this one climb.

Also, although it is a bit of an aside, if one wishes to apply more precise statistics, it is worth noting that repeatedly doing something that is unsafe in a way that allows a single anchor sling to fail like this with probability p, gives a probability of p/(2-p) that both STRINGs break, when at least one of them finally does break. (That's assuming that every time one weights the anchor, both slings are weighted enough that any mis-configured STRINGs do break.) So, even repeatedly clipping anchor bolts in a way that gives a 1/2 chance of clipping each bolt in an unsafe way (such as what Jay describes) will, 2 times out of 3, result in only one of the STRINGs breaking.

It is certainly enlightening to identify the particular dangers of using Petzl STRINGs with non-stitched-together slings. But perhaps an additional lesson to learn here is that one should test each individual anchor point with one's full weight before trusting the entire system. Or at least put one's full weight on the entire system before untying.


warrenw


Jun 14, 2010, 7:15 PM
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I’m a bit worried about this comment:

sherpa79 wrote:
I just pulled one of those off of a friends sling yesterday. She had it installed correctly, but wanted to use the biner in the end for something else. She pulled it out leaving the String on the runner. I could see how you might clip into that incorrectly upon a later date.

And a few other comments, because you seem to be missing the issue. It is NOT that the sling + constrictor + carabiner were put together in some confused fashion. It is NOT the case that you’ll be fine if you put them together right.

Watch the UKC video please. Mike linked it earlier. Forgive their laughing about issue, as the video was created before the NRG accident: http://www.ukclimbing.com/videos/play.php?i=20

They can be put together “correctly” BUT THEN LATER get into the deadly configuration in your gear bag, OR LATER while you’re girth hitching the thing to your belay loop/tie-in points, OR LATER when you clip it to the gear loop on your harness, OR LATER when you're clipping things at the anchor.

Also, this isn’t just a danger with the Petzl String. It can happen with ANY little constrictor thing you put on an open sling. People use rubber bands, o-rings, hair ties, climbing tape... People use these setups on personal anchors as well as on homemade quickdraws from sewn slings or tied cord. They ALL pose the same hazard.

(My apologies to sherpa79 if you didn’t mean to come across as saying what I thought you did. But I hope my point is clear to anyone getting the wrong idea.)

Edit to add: Please keep an eye out for this problem, and if you see it on a stranger, tell them. Tell them someone smart, capable, and experienced DIED because of the setup.

Take care on the rock.
w


(This post was edited by warrenw on Jun 14, 2010, 7:25 PM)


jt512


Jun 14, 2010, 7:30 PM
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wmarkham wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Assuming that these configurations are equally likely, the probability of both slings becoming configured in the failure configuration is just 1 in 4.
I agree that it is unsatisfying to suppose that each mis-configured sling an independent event with a 1-in-1000 chance of happening. But then again, a systematic error alone doesn't completely explain the accident either:

I suspect that most climbers, usually, test their anchor system with more than enough weight to break a Petzl STRING (Petzl appears to capitalize the product name) in this configuration, before committing to it.

No, no one tests their connection to a sport anchor, ever. At most, you inspect the bolts, but you assume implicitly that the draws or slings you're connecting to the anchors are 100% reliable. The only way to test the slings would be to rely 100% on the belayer, but it's the other way around: you use your complete confidence in the slings (and the bolts) to test the belayer!

In reply to:
Even allowing for the possibility of some systematic error on her part...

I think that sherpa79 has identified, as confirmed by ensonik, a highly plausible way that the slings could have become configured in this failure mode. The mechanism is systematic insofar as it involves clipping the "Stringed" biner into a gear loop, and random insofar as happening to catch a single strand of the sling while clipping.

In reply to:
I think that one also needs to also suppose that Karen adopted her flawed routine recently enough that she had not yet discovered this possibility.

I think that one needs to consider that Karen might have adopted a flawed routine recently, but the fact that—if sherpa79's mechanism (or one similar) is correct—there can be a large random element to the mechanism, could mean that Karen had been following the same practice for a long time. In sherpa79's mechanism, for instance, one could clip the Stringed biner to their gear loop many times without ever catching the correct single strand needed to cause the failure (and it is just one of the strands; catch the other, and you're fine. And moreover, whichever strand you catch, the result looks similar, so actually having caught the wrong strand before, and having experienced no problem, could lead one to shrug off the dangerous configuration.)

In reply to:
Also, although it is a bit of an aside, if one wishes to apply more precise statistics, it is worth noting that repeatedly doing something that is unsafe in a way that allows a single anchor sling to fail like this with probability p, gives a probability of p/(2-p) that both STRINGs break, when at least one of them finally does break. (That's assuming that every time one weights the anchor, both slings are weighted enough that any mis-configured STRINGs do break.) So, even repeatedly clipping anchor bolts in a way that gives a 1/2 chance of clipping each bolt in an unsafe way (such as what Jay describes) will, 2 times out of 3, result in only one of the STRINGs breaking.

Maybe it's the beer I just drank, but I don't follow this at all. If the probability of making an error with either sling is p, and the errors are independent, then the probability of making an error with both slings is p^2.

Jay


DexterRutecki


Jun 14, 2010, 8:51 PM
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tradmanclimbs wrote:
Never girth hitch or tie knots with those skinny dynema/spectra slings. They can act like a wire saw and cut through themselfs or nylon.

Umm, I'm sorry, what? Since when are you not supposed to tie knots in dyneema or spectra slings?

What are you supposed to use this for? http://www.rockclimbing.com/gear/Add-On_Climbing_Gear/Webbing/Slings/Contact_Sling_Dyneema_8mm_-_240cm_8ft__12130.html

I use a skinny double length sling all the time to set up an anchor on 2 bolts, with a sliding X and two overhands.

I may be missing something.


geogoddess


Jun 14, 2010, 9:03 PM
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I'm so sorry to hear of this, and my heart goes out to her family, children and friends. We lost a friend in a climbing accident a few years back, and I have a son of my own; I can only imagine how this loss will be felt. I am sending my thoughts and prayers to all of you for love and closeness as you deal with her loss.


patto


Jun 14, 2010, 9:31 PM
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DexterRutecki wrote:
I may be missing something.

Knots in dynema slings typically reduce their peak strength by almost half. While it most likely wont kill you it is best to be avoided.

jt512 wrote:
No, no one tests their connection to a sport anchor, ever. At most, you inspect the bolts, but you assume implicitly that the draws or slings you're connecting to the anchors are 100% reliable. The only way to test the slings would be to rely 100% on the belayer, but it's the other way around: you use your complete confidence in the slings (and the bolts) to test the belayer!

I'm sorry Jay but you do seem to make baiting comments with regularity. I most certainly do test my connections to sport anchors for body weight before going off belay.

There have been numerous death reported on this site when people fail to test their new safety attachment with body weight before removing their other safety. This happen alot in rappel accidents.


jt512


Jun 14, 2010, 9:44 PM
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patto wrote:
DexterRutecki wrote:
I may be missing something.

Knots in dynema slings typically reduce their peak strength by almost half. While it most likely wont kill you it is best to be avoided.

jt512 wrote:
No, no one tests their connection to a sport anchor, ever. At most, you inspect the bolts, but you assume implicitly that the draws or slings you're connecting to the anchors are 100% reliable. The only way to test the slings would be to rely 100% on the belayer, but it's the other way around: you use your complete confidence in the slings (and the bolts) to test the belayer!

I'm sorry Jay but you do seem to make baiting comments with regularity. I most certainly do test my connections to sport anchors for body weight before going off belay.

There have been numerous death reported on this site when people fail to test their new safety attachment with body weight before removing their other safety. This happen alot in rappel accidents.

So do you also test your harness, your rope, and every carabiner on your rack before you rely on them, or do you actually assume that these elements of the protection system will work as advertised, and as they have every other time you've relied on them?

Jay


jkdfjkdfjkdfjkd


Jun 14, 2010, 9:48 PM
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Re: [newrivermike] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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This is a great summary of a mistake that is very, very, very easy to make. Thanks for posting this, and my condolences to the family of Karen Feher.

I wanted to add one lesson learned to newrivermike's post, and it is:
1. Never untie from the rope, even when threading the shuts at the top.Before you untie,take slack and pull a loop through your draws and tie that loop to your harness with a figure eight on a bight...now you are double tied to the rope. leave enough slack to then untie the end of the rope from your harness and thread it. After you've threaded and retied the end of the rope back to your harness (and tested it), then untie the loop (with the fig 8 on a bight, or overhand, or whatever you used)


patto


Jun 14, 2010, 9:52 PM
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Re: [jt512] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
So do you also test your harness, your rope, and every carabiner on your rack before you rely on them, or do you actually assume that these elements of the protection system will work as advertised, and as they have every other time you've relied on them?

Jay
No.

But I'm not sure why that is relevent.


wmarkham


Jun 14, 2010, 10:00 PM
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Re: [jt512] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
wmarkham wrote:
I suspect that most climbers, usually, test their anchor system with more than enough weight to break a Petzl STRING (Petzl appears to capitalize the product name) in this configuration, before committing to it.

No, no one tests their connection to a sport anchor, ever.
Hmm. Clearly, there has been a miscommunication. By "test", I just mean, "weight". Are you saying that you are always able to stand at the anchor without weighting either your anchor draws or the rope? That does not match my own experience.

Plus, many climbers will use those same girth-hitched slings to clip into a bolt while "hang-dogging", in order to give their belayer's break hand a rest. In that case, the belay system serves as a backup while the climber puts his full weight onto a single sling.

I will certainly admit that the flaw in my reasoning may very well be that a STRING can actually hold about half of Karen's weight, in the configuration in question. Perhaps she actually had weighted them in the past, while still on belay, but had simply never had the good fortune to have one break on her in such a situation.

(Edited to respond to:)
jkdfjkdfjkdfjkd wrote:
Never untie from the rope, even when threading the shuts at the top.
I think that when they can, most (well, let's say many) climbers use a locking 'biner to clip into a figure-eight tied on a bight that they have threaded through the anchor. This is somewhat common knowledge, I hope. And when you are preparing to rappel, (as I think may have been the case in this particular incident) you will untie anyway.


(This post was edited by wmarkham on Jun 14, 2010, 10:22 PM)


jt512


Jun 14, 2010, 10:02 PM
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Re: [patto] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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patto wrote:
jt512 wrote:
So do you also test your harness, your rope, and every carabiner on your rack before you rely on them, or do you actually assume that these elements of the protection system will work as advertised, and as they have every other time you've relied on them?

Jay
No.

But I'm not sure why that is relevent.

Because her connector to the anchor fails. No one checks their connector to the anchor. You can't check every element of the system. You have to assume that some element is the bombproof gold standard. The only way to check that the connectors are ok is to rely 100% on the belayer; but, in my opinion, the belayer is much more likely to fail than two independent connections to the anchor. So, by testing the anchor by reference to the belayer, you would actually be increasing the chances of an accident occurring.


patto


Jun 14, 2010, 10:05 PM
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Re: [jt512] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
Because her connector to the anchor fails. No one checks their connector to the anchor.
I check my connect to the anchor with body weight. As I said.

jt512 wrote:
You can't check every element of the system. You have to assume that some element is the bombproof gold standard. The only way to check that the connectors are ok is to rely 100% on the belayer; but, in my opinion, the belayer is much more likely to fail than two independent connections to the anchor. So, by testing the anchor by reference to the belayer, you would actually be increasing the chances of an accident occurring.
This does not make sense. How do you increase you chances of an accident occuring by weighting you 'connections to the anchor' before going off belay.

Oh I give up...


DexterRutecki


Jun 14, 2010, 10:24 PM
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Re: [patto] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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patto wrote:
DexterRutecki wrote:
I may be missing something.

Knots in dynema slings typically reduce their peak strength by almost half. While it most likely wont kill you it is best to be avoided.

I wholeheartedly disagree. Knots will decrease the strength of any sling. A dyneenma sling is rated to around 22 KN, a force I do NOT want to ever feel. In fact, half of that will probably cause your body damage. There is no reason to avoid using material other than 7mm nylon cord for applications such as anchors, which require bends and knots in the rope. People do this all the time, and it is safe. Feel free to back up your reasoning with something, I offer this

http://www.alpinist.com/doc/ALP18/newswire-dyneema-broken-sling-report

Although that really shouldn't be needed.


patto


Jun 14, 2010, 10:43 PM
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Re: [DexterRutecki] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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DexterRutecki wrote:
I wholeheartedly disagree.

You disagree with what? I never claimed that you shouldn't tie knots in sling.


cjon3s


Jun 14, 2010, 10:52 PM
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Re: [jt512] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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First, I offer condolences to the family for their loss.

The New really hasn't seen many accidents and the atmosphere and people there are always so great.

Hey Jay? Could you explain what exactly is going on here? I got a bit lost in the explanation but you seem to have got it.

Finally, why would a string be used in this fashion? I'm not super familiar with them, so I'm not sure why they would be rigged like this. Just looking for some insight.


majid_sabet


Jun 14, 2010, 11:20 PM
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Re: [jt512] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
wmarkham wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Assuming that these configurations are equally likely, the probability of both slings becoming configured in the failure configuration is just 1 in 4.
I agree that it is unsatisfying to suppose that each mis-configured sling an independent event with a 1-in-1000 chance of happening. But then again, a systematic error alone doesn't completely explain the accident either:

I suspect that most climbers, usually, test their anchor system with more than enough weight to break a Petzl STRING (Petzl appears to capitalize the product name) in this configuration, before committing to it.

No, no one tests their connection to a sport anchor, ever. At most, you inspect the bolts, but you assume implicitly that the draws or slings you're connecting to the anchors are 100% reliable. The only way to test the slings would be to rely 100% on the belayer, but it's the other way around: you use your complete confidence in the slings (and the bolts) to test the belayer!

In reply to:
Even allowing for the possibility of some systematic error on her part...

I think that sherpa79 has identified, as confirmed by ensonik, a highly plausible way that the slings could have become configured in this failure mode. The mechanism is systematic insofar as it involves clipping the "Stringed" biner into a gear loop, and random insofar as happening to catch a single strand of the sling while clipping.

In reply to:
I think that one also needs to also suppose that Karen adopted her flawed routine recently enough that she had not yet discovered this possibility.

I think that one needs to consider that Karen might have adopted a flawed routine recently, but the fact that—if sherpa79's mechanism (or one similar) is correct—there can be a large random element to the mechanism, could mean that Karen had been following the same practice for a long time. In sherpa79's mechanism, for instance, one could clip the Stringed biner to their gear loop many times without ever catching the correct single strand needed to cause the failure (and it is just one of the strands; catch the other, and you're fine. And moreover, whichever strand you catch, the result looks similar, so actually having caught the wrong strand before, and having experienced no problem, could lead one to shrug off the dangerous configuration.)

In reply to:
Also, although it is a bit of an aside, if one wishes to apply more precise statistics, it is worth noting that repeatedly doing something that is unsafe in a way that allows a single anchor sling to fail like this with probability p, gives a probability of p/(2-p) that both STRINGs break, when at least one of them finally does break. (That's assuming that every time one weights the anchor, both slings are weighted enough that any mis-configured STRINGs do break.) So, even repeatedly clipping anchor bolts in a way that gives a 1/2 chance of clipping each bolt in an unsafe way (such as what Jay describes) will, 2 times out of 3, result in only one of the STRINGs breaking.

Maybe it's the beer I just drank, but I don't follow this at all. If the probability of making an error with either sling is p, and the errors are independent, then the probability of making an error with both slings is p^2.

Jay

sorry jay

But the laws of gravity applies to ALL climbers who use harnesses and everyone (sport, trad,TR whatever) needs to triple check their attachment before sending an off belay command.


(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Jun 14, 2010, 11:20 PM)


justroberto


Jun 14, 2010, 11:50 PM
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jt512 wrote:
No, no one tests their connection to a sport anchor, ever.
Seriously? I'd bet that most people, when planning to rap from or thread the anchor bolts to lower would clip their pas/slings/whatever to the bolts, sit back on them, and then say "I'm off." I can't think of anyone I've climbed with that doesn't do the same. Even if you said you were off as soon as you clipped into the anchor bolts, you'd probably sit back before your p got you fully out of the belay device.

Rico Suave isn't super steep, but it's still near vertical at the anchors, and there isn't a ledge that you're on. Weighting your attachment to the anchor at that point would most certainly blow out the rubber if it were the only thing holding the biners to the slings. If still on belay, you fall onto the last bolt.


tradmanclimbs


Jun 15, 2010, 4:48 AM
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Re: [justroberto] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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Jay, anyone who does not weight their attachment to the anchor before yelling Off and again weight their rappell before unclipping from the anchor is liveing on borrowed time.

Possible that you sport climbers get into a few bad habits due to the routine of yo yo ing?


Partner j_ung


Jun 15, 2010, 5:34 AM
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tradmanclimbs wrote:
Jay, anyone who does not weight their attachment to the anchor before yelling Off and again weight their rappell before unclipping from the anchor is liveing on borrowed time.

Possible that you sport climbers get into a few bad habits due to the routine of yo yo ing?

I think we've begun to seek out behaviors that could mitigate the risk in question... and maybe justify our own? But the lesson, which I think is pretty simple, is that strings and like devices place a serious flaw in the system when attached to any sling that isn't stitched shut like a dog bone.


camhead


Jun 15, 2010, 6:14 AM
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j_ung wrote:
strings and like devices place a serious flaw in the system when attached to any sling that isn't stitched shut like a dog bone.

Yes. This is the bottom line that everyone should take from this.


welle


Jun 15, 2010, 8:22 AM
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Re: [DexterRutecki] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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DexterRutecki wrote:
patto wrote:
DexterRutecki wrote:
I may be missing something.

Knots in dynema slings typically reduce their peak strength by almost half. While it most likely wont kill you it is best to be avoided.

I wholeheartedly disagree. Knots will decrease the strength of any sling. A dyneenma sling is rated to around 22 KN, a force I do NOT want to ever feel. In fact, half of that will probably cause your body damage. There is no reason to avoid using material other than 7mm nylon cord for applications such as anchors, which require bends and knots in the rope. People do this all the time, and it is safe. Feel free to back up your reasoning with something, I offer this

http://www.alpinist.com/doc/ALP18/newswire-dyneema-broken-sling-report

Although that really shouldn't be needed.

First of all, my condolences to Karen's family and friends.

Second, knots in nylon slings have been found to slightly increase their strength as demonstrated by DMM: http://www.dmmclimbing.com/video.asp?id=5


dbogardus


Jun 15, 2010, 8:37 AM
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welle wrote:
DexterRutecki wrote:
patto wrote:
DexterRutecki wrote:
I may be missing something.

Knots in dynema slings typically reduce their peak strength by almost half. While it most likely wont kill you it is best to be avoided.

I wholeheartedly disagree. Knots will decrease the strength of any sling. A dyneenma sling is rated to around 22 KN, a force I do NOT want to ever feel. In fact, half of that will probably cause your body damage. There is no reason to avoid using material other than 7mm nylon cord for applications such as anchors, which require bends and knots in the rope. People do this all the time, and it is safe. Feel free to back up your reasoning with something, I offer this

http://www.alpinist.com/doc/ALP18/newswire-dyneema-broken-sling-report

Although that really shouldn't be needed.

First of all, my condolences to Karen's family and friends.

Second, knots in nylon slings have been found to slightly increase their strength as demonstrated by DMM: http://www.dmmclimbing.com/video.asp?id=5

Not that this is the thread to go on about the strength of slings, but it seems to me that although the peak force on dyneema and nylon slings are decreased with an overhand knot tied, both types of slings are failing at the lower forces with the knot applied when they are not failing at the higher forces.


jt512


Jun 15, 2010, 8:50 AM
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Re: [tradmanclimbs] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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tradmanclimbs wrote:
Jay, anyone who does not weight their attachment to the anchor before yelling Off and again weight their rappell before unclipping from the anchor is liveing on borrowed time.

I guess I'm living on borrowed time, then. I actually assume that the equipment is good. I visually check that the bolts and the rock they are in are good, and maybe tap on the rock to check if it is solid; and I visually check my connection to the anchor. But, no, I don't consciously test whether my slings, biners, quick draws, harness, rope, etc, and the anchors are going to hold my body weight.

Actually, I don't see the logic behind testing the anchor before going off belay. Let's say I've just led a sport route, and I have clipped into the 2-bolt anchor using two redundant and independent connections (ie, quick draws). If I were to now test the anchor before going off belay that would imply that I trust my belayer and the single bolt below the anchor more than I trust a redundant connection that I myself made to a two-bolt anchor. To my way of thinking, the latter is more reliable than the former, so it doesn't make sense to use the former to test the latter. The same logic applies when I am ready to lower. I use the anchor to test the belayer; not the other way around.

In reply to:
Possible that you sport climbers get into a few bad habits due to the routine of yo yo ing?

No, I think it's actually a trad thing. When you place gear or build an anchor, you depend on your knowledge of your equipment, your engineering, and your ability to judge visually. You can't and don't test that whether your placements or your anchor will hold a lead fall.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 15, 2010, 9:46 AM)


rejames1981


Jun 15, 2010, 9:07 AM
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My deepest condolences to the family. Mike, thank you very much for taking the time to dispell speculation and inform the climbing community.


jt512


Jun 15, 2010, 9:12 AM
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wmarkham wrote:
jt512 wrote:
wmarkham wrote:
I suspect that most climbers, usually, test their anchor system with more than enough weight to break a Petzl STRING (Petzl appears to capitalize the product name) in this configuration, before committing to it.

No, no one tests their connection to a sport anchor, ever.
Hmm. Clearly, there has been a miscommunication. By "test", I just mean, "weight". Are you saying that you are always able to stand at the anchor without weighting either your anchor draws or the rope?

Certainly most sport anchors get tested by way of weighting them. But I have never consciously thought of this as a testing process. For instance, when I can stand at the anchor and thread for lowering without weighting the anchor, I don't purposefully weight it to test it; I check the bolts as best I can, and double check my connection to the anchor before going off belay. Apparently, this revelation has raised a few eyebrows: a few people have commented that they always purposely weight the anchor before going off belay, and one has intoned that I am living on borrowed time.

Jay


moose_droppings


Jun 15, 2010, 9:37 AM
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If there is a thread somewhere else for condolences, please let me know and I'll repost to that thread. This thread doesn't seem like the appropriate place considering how these tend to roll.

My sincere condolences to all of Karen's friends and family with hopes that they may find peace in these trying times.


tradmanclimbs


Jun 15, 2010, 9:44 AM
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jay, this has nothing to do with trusting the gear unless the gear is obviously suspect. It is a physical test to make sure that you are clipped in properly. If you get in the habit of unclipping from the anchor before you weight your rappell you increase the odds of not catching that boneheadded mistake. Does not matter how good you are, how famous or cool you you think you are, you will still go splat if you make that mistake. Weighting the anchor before you yell OFF and weighting your rappell before you unclip from the anchor takes little effort but gives you a much greater margin of safety.

Same thing goes for lowering. Yell Take and then got me? and Then unclip from the anchor. Very simple stuff. First grade in climbing terms.

Sport climbers spend most of their time on 1/2 pitch routs yo yo which equates to lots of time belaying from the ground and very little time spent at hanging belays. Perhaps that breeds some poor habits born of convience?


Rudmin


Jun 15, 2010, 9:48 AM
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jt512 wrote:
wmarkham wrote:
jt512 wrote:
wmarkham wrote:
I suspect that most climbers, usually, test their anchor system with more than enough weight to break a Petzl STRING (Petzl appears to capitalize the product name) in this configuration, before committing to it.

No, no one tests their connection to a sport anchor, ever.
Hmm. Clearly, there has been a miscommunication. By "test", I just mean, "weight". Are you saying that you are always able to stand at the anchor without weighting either your anchor draws or the rope?

Certainly most sport anchors get tested by way of weighting them. But I have never consciously thought of this as a testing process. For instance, when I can stand at the anchor and thread for lowering without weighting the anchor, I don't purposefully weight it to test it; I check the bolts as best I can, and double check my connection to the anchor before going off belay. Apparently, this revelation has raised a few eyebrows: a few people have commented that they always purposely weight the anchor before going off belay, and one has intoned that I am living on borrowed time.

Jay

The way you wrote it definitely makes it sound like you are not weighting your anchors before trusting them.

The first rule for messing about with anchors that I learned is to always weight your new anchor or tether or rappel before removing the old one. Sometimes I won't if I am on a big ledge or the lengths don't work out. But I am at least very aware of it.


majid_sabet


Jun 15, 2010, 9:50 AM
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This still does not registered in my head that climbers double check their harnesses, belay biner,rope, belay device, knot right off the crag before they put their hands on the first hold but then as soon they airborne, they turn the autopilot and they start climbing with their eyes closed.

why do you assume that anchor are always safe or the bolt is always bomber ?


Did you forget that two climbers fell and died last year in RRG by clipping in to an old webbing at the anchor point?

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...d;page=unread#unread

why not spending 10 second checking things before putting your life on the anchor?


(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Jun 29, 2010, 12:37 PM)


tradmanclimbs


Jun 15, 2010, 9:52 AM
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Jay. If the ledge is super big and comfortable (grand traverse ledge, gunks, etc) No I would not weight the anchor before going Off belay. I certainly would weight the rapell before unclipping from anchor and i would would also weight a lower before unclipping from anchor.


jt512


Jun 15, 2010, 9:53 AM
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tradmanclimbs wrote:
jay, this has nothing to do with trusting the gear unless the gear is obviously suspect. It is a physical test to make sure that you are clipped in properly.

I don't need a physical test to see if I'm clipped in properly. I can verify that visually.

In reply to:
Weighting the anchor before you yell OFF...gives you a much greater margin of safety.

Actually, I don't see the logic behind testing the anchor before going off belay. Let's say I've just led a sport route, and I have clipped into the 2-bolt anchor using two redundant and independent connections (ie, quick draws). If I were to now test the anchor before going off belay that would imply that I trust my belayer and the single bolt below the anchor more than I trust a redundant connection that I myself made to a two-bolt anchor. To my way of thinking, the latter is more reliable than the former, so it doesn't make sense to use the former to test the latter. The same logic applies when I am ready to lower. I use the anchor to test the belayer; not the other way around.

Jay


tradmanclimbs


Jun 15, 2010, 10:02 AM
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What i am getting at is testing the belayer, the anchor, and your connection to the anchor and the whole system. Eyesight can be decieveing. See the accident that started this discussion.


Partner drector


Jun 15, 2010, 10:05 AM
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jt512 wrote:
tradmanclimbs wrote:
jay, this has nothing to do with trusting the gear unless the gear is obviously suspect. It is a physical test to make sure that you are clipped in properly.

I don't need a physical test to see if I'm clipped in properly. I can verify that visually.

In reply to:
Weighting the anchor before you yell OFF...gives you a much greater margin of safety.

Actually, I don't see the logic behind testing the anchor before going off belay. Let's say I've just led a sport route, and I have clipped into the 2-bolt anchor using two redundant and independent connections (ie, quick draws). If I were to now test the anchor before going off belay that would imply that I trust my belayer and the single bolt below the anchor more than I trust a redundant connection that I myself made to a two-bolt anchor. To my way of thinking, the latter is more reliable than the former, so it doesn't make sense to use the former to test the latter. The same logic applies when I am ready to lower. I use the anchor to test the belayer; not the other way around.

Jay

Saying "off belay" while still having your weight on the rope is a lie. You cannot be off belay when you are still relying on that belay.

On the other hand, standing on a ledge and being able to untie the climbing rope before even attaching to an anchor is very different. I'm not at all sure which situation is being discussed and if the climber in the accident was actually hanging from the climbing rope when she said "off belay" or if she was off the rope but not weighing her attachment to the anchor.

I for one have never said "off belay" until I was detached from the climbing rope or was at least secure enough that if the belayer went to get coffee and trips and pulls the rope, I was not pulled off the rock.

My condolences to her family and friends. This is a very tragic accident.

Dave


jt512


Jun 15, 2010, 10:13 AM
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tradmanclimbs wrote:
What i am getting at is testing the belayer, the anchor, and your connection to the anchor and the whole system.

One of things you are suggesting is to use the belayer and the single bolt below the anchor to test a redundant connection to the anchor itself. The current accident notwithstanding, a redundant connection that I make to a solid two-bolt anchor is going to be more reliable than a belayer catching my fall onto the single bolt below. I don't see much value in using a less reliable system to test a more reliable one—and that is what you are suggesting, whether you realize it or not.

On most sport climbs, one has no choice but to weight the anchor before going off belay anyway, so the issue is largely moot.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 15, 2010, 10:16 AM)


tradmanclimbs


Jun 15, 2010, 10:19 AM
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Again jay, I am testing the entire system not just one part of the system.


jt512


Jun 15, 2010, 10:24 AM
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tradmanclimbs wrote:
Again jay, I am testing the entire system not just one part of the system.

No, you're not, whether you realize it or not.

Jay


tradmanclimbs


Jun 15, 2010, 10:30 AM
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jay, I trad, Ice, aid and sport climb. I do not change my procedures all that much from style to style.. I keep the same drill and keep it simple but obviously there are going to be some differences due the changing situations.

Regarding sport climbing, chances are very near 100% that the top bolts will be good so the test is purely about makeing sure that your connection to those bolts is correct and that you and your belayer are on the same page. Chances are very good that had Karen weighted her slings before going off belay we would not be haveing this conversation which makes your resistance to this concept somewhat puzzeling?


jt512


Jun 15, 2010, 11:06 AM
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tradmanclimbs wrote:
jay, I trad, Ice, aid and sport climb. I do not change my procedures all that much from style to style.. I keep the same drill and keep it simple but obviously there are going to be some differences due the changing situations.

You are doing things differently depending on the anchor. You are willing to trust a gear anchor that you have built to withstand a factor-2 fall, but not to trust a connection to a 2-bolt sport anchor to hold body weight.

I know how to make a bombproof connection to an anchor, and to inspect it visually. There is no reason for me to test that it will hold my body weight, especially when doing so would imply that I trust the single bolt below me and a second party (my belayer) more than I trust own ability to secure myself to an anchor.

In reply to:
Regarding sport climbing, chances are very near 100% that the top bolts will be good so the test is purely about makeing sure that your connection to those bolts is correct.... Chances are very good that had Karen weighted her slings before going off belay we would not be haveing this conversation which makes your resistance to this concept somewhat puzzeling?

Every fatal accident does not necessitate introducing unnecessary procedures into the system. Todd Skinner would be alive today if he had backed up his belay loop. That does not imply that we all should be backing up our belay loops. It implies that we should inspect our belay loops and retire our harness if the belay loop becomes too worn. Karen would be alive today (possibly) if she tested her connection to the anchor by body weight before going off belay. But that does not imply that we all should do so. It implies that we should use a system of connecting to the anchor that is bombproof and completely transparent to visual inspection.

It can't hurt physically to test the anchor by weighting it, by I really wonder about the mindset of the climber who thinks it necessary to do so. Does such a climber have the confidence (and competence) to build a gear anchor that can't be tested with a factor-2 test fall? And if he or she does, then why would he think it necessary to test whether his connection to a two-bolt anchor would hold his body weight? It's philosophically inconsistent. I will continue to rely on my eyes and my brain to determine that I am properly connected to sport anchors, just as I rely on my eyes and my brain when building and connecting to my own gear anchors.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 15, 2010, 11:11 AM)


jakedatc


Jun 15, 2010, 11:21 AM
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Jay i don't think you are understanding what Tradman is saying. He is talking about weighting your personal sling anchor before untying.

in steps...

Take: hang on rope, clip in with sling
Slack: loosen rope so that you are 100% on sling. this is when you are sure that your connection to the bolt is good. Untie, thread, retie.

Take: belayer takes up so that your rope is tight again. and sling is loose. checking that you have threaded correctly and knot is fully tied (remember lynn hill fell a long way due to an unfinished fig 8) Undo sling
Lower off.

what he is saying has nothing to do with the anchor, gear, physical properties of anything involved. It is about the connection between you and the anchor being there at all.

edit: that last post you might see what he is saying. But it does give me a warm and fuzzy feeling when I have tension from the rope and tension from my sling.


(This post was edited by jakedatc on Jun 15, 2010, 11:24 AM)


bigo


Jun 15, 2010, 11:22 AM
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jt512 wrote:
tradmanclimbs wrote:
What i am getting at is testing the belayer, the anchor, and your connection to the anchor and the whole system.

One of things you are suggesting is to use the belayer and the single bolt below the anchor to test a redundant connection to the anchor itself. The current accident notwithstanding, a redundant connection that I make to a solid two-bolt anchor is going to be more reliable than a belayer catching my fall onto the single bolt below. I don't see much value in using a less reliable system to test a more reliable one—and that is what you are suggesting, whether you realize it or not.

On most sport climbs, one has no choice but to weight the anchor before going off belay anyway, so the issue is largely moot.

Jay

Do you really not see any value from weighting your slings before you un-tie from the rope when cleaning a sport anchor? Do you think it would have helped prevent the accident cited in the OP? What is the downside of weighting slings before going off-belay?


tradmanclimbs


Jun 15, 2010, 11:24 AM
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Jay. You are over thinking it. I am just keeping it simple and following a routine that I have previously determined will make me safer in the long run.. I do adapt that routine to present circumstances but in general the routine stays fairly stable.

Since you are such a thinker try this out.

If you move a computer file from one drive to annother do you just look at the icon in the new location or do you physicaly open the new file before you delete the old file?


psprings


Jun 15, 2010, 11:28 AM
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A solution: the Metolius Long Draw



With the draw stitched shut the whole length of the sling, you avoid being able to "unclip" the sling.

Simple and effective.


jt512


Jun 15, 2010, 11:29 AM
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jakedatc wrote:
Jay i don't think you are understanding what Tradman is saying.

I understand exactly what he's saying.

In reply to:
He is talking about weighting your personal sling anchor before untying.

in steps...

Take: hang on rope, clip in with sling
Slack: loosen rope so that you are 100% on sling. this is when you are sure that your connection to the bolt is good.

No. I know my connection to the anchor is good when I make it and when I visually check it. I don't have to weight it to determine when it is good. Now, sure, if there is no place to stand at the anchor, as is usually the case in sport climbing, then it gets weighted anyway. But when there is a stance, no, I do not "take" at the anchor, clip in, and then weight the anchor to test my connection. I just stand there, clip in, and say "slack." I know my connection to the anchor is good because I can perfectly well see that it is. I don't need or want to weight the anchor to test that two quick draws that are right in front of me are properly clipped. There is no reason to. I have eyes.

Jay


tradmanclimbs


Jun 15, 2010, 11:31 AM
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Jake, thank you, Your gramer is better than mine. One other critical thing that is being tested is makeing shure your belayer is on the same page and ready to lower you. By yelling Take after you have re threaded and BEFORE you unclip you are makeing certain that Jimmy is actually ready to lower you and not chatting up Suzy firm buns and thinking that you wrer going to rap instead of lower.

Again this should be first grade level sport climbing.


jt512


Jun 15, 2010, 11:34 AM
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tradmanclimbs wrote:
One other critical thing that is being tested is makeing shure your belayer is on the same page and ready to lower you. By yelling Take after you have re threaded and BEFORE you unclip you are makeing certain that Jimmy is actually ready to lower you and not chatting up Suzy firm buns and thinking that you wrer going to rap instead of lower.

Again this should be first grade level sport climbing.

This is at least the fourth time you have brought this up, even though it has nothing to do with the accident, and everyone agrees with you.

Jay


jt512


Jun 15, 2010, 11:37 AM
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tradmanclimbs wrote:
If you move a computer file from one drive to annother do you just look at the icon in the new location or do you physicaly open the new file before you delete the old file?

I just delete the old file.

Jay


tradmanclimbs


Jun 15, 2010, 11:37 AM
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Everone except for you jay. And we all know that You know everythingCool


jt512


Jun 15, 2010, 11:43 AM
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tradmanclimbs wrote:
Everone except for you jay. And we all know that You know everythingCool

Can't you even follow your own train of thought? Everybody, including me, agrees with you that you should actually make sure your belayer has you before you unclip. What I disagree with you about is testing your anchor connection with body weight.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 15, 2010, 11:44 AM)


tradmanclimbs


Jun 15, 2010, 11:45 AM
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Interesting. I often move folders with 4 gigs of photos to external drives. they don't always go through with all the files. A quick click to check how many gigs actually transfered to the new location has saved the day a few times.. I have also crashed and burned a few times in the computer world.

Things are not always what they seem. That sling you just clipped to that big fat bolt may just be connected to your gear loop under your windbreaker instead of to your belay loop. stuff happens. that is why simple tests are good. I know the gear loop wouldn't break in a quick test but it does tug you in a diferent spot than your belay loop and give you a heads up... stuff happens....


jt512


Jun 15, 2010, 11:51 AM
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tradmanclimbs wrote:
Things are not always what they seem. That sling you just clipped to that big fat bolt may just be connected to your gear loop under your windbreaker instead of to your belay loop.

Not if I look at it and see that it is, in fact, clipped to my belay loop.

In reply to:
stuff happens. that is why simple tests are good.

Yeah, like simple visual inspections.

In reply to:
I know the gear loop wouldn't break in a quick test but it does tug you in a diferent spot than your belay loop and give you a heads up... stuff happens....

Actually if you put your full body weight on your gear loop, it certainly might fail, and on a trad climb (tradmanclimbs) you might lose half your rack. Now had you relied on visual inspection, you'd still have all that gear with you.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 15, 2010, 1:00 PM)


tradmanclimbs


Jun 15, 2010, 11:55 AM
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jay. I do both. look and test. And no I can't always follow my own train of thought....


sp00ki


Jun 15, 2010, 12:43 PM
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PAS 4 lyfe.


circello


Jun 15, 2010, 1:06 PM
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Jay -

Would a simple visual inspection have prevented this accident?

What is the harm in empirically testing your set-up?

Your eyes, no matter how good you claim to be, can fail you. Weighting the system is a simple yes/no query.


theguy


Jun 15, 2010, 1:09 PM
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jt512 wrote:
You are thinking of the cause of the slings being misconfigured as a random event...But I suspect that it is a mistake to think of this event as being random. Rather, I suspect ... systematic error.

jt512 wrote:
I actually assume that the equipment is good...I don't see the logic behind testing the anchor before going off belay


majid_sabet


Jun 15, 2010, 1:09 PM
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circello wrote:
Jay -

Would a simple visual inspection have prevented this accident?

What is the harm in empirically testing your set-up?

Your eyes, no matter how good you claim to be, can fail you. Weighting the system is a simple yes/no query.

excellent point


jakedatc


Jun 15, 2010, 1:15 PM
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majid_sabet wrote:
circello wrote:
Jay -

Would a simple visual inspection have prevented this accident?

What is the harm in empirically testing your set-up?

Your eyes, no matter how good you claim to be, can fail you. Weighting the system is a simple yes/no query.

excellent point

holy shit.. I AGREE with Majid..

the whole point of this is that Karen had 2 slings that were incorrectly set up and probably looked fine but were actually not.

Visual inspection: pass

Weight test: fail.


jt512


Jun 15, 2010, 1:28 PM
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jakedatc wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
circello wrote:
Jay -

Would a simple visual inspection have prevented this accident?

What is the harm in empirically testing your set-up?

Your eyes, no matter how good you claim to be, can fail you. Weighting the system is a simple yes/no query.

excellent point

holy shit.. I AGREE with Majid..

the whole point of this is that Karen had 2 slings that were incorrectly set up and probably looked fine but were actually not.

Visual inspection: pass

Weight test: fail.

Only connect to anchors using equipment that is completely transparent to visual inspection: PASS

Do you weight test your rope to determine if it will hold? How do you know it will?

Do you weight test your harness to determine if it will hold? How do you know it will?

Do you weight test your belay device? your belay loop? your belay carabiner? How do you know any of these things won't fall apart when weighted?

Jay


bigjonnyc


Jun 15, 2010, 1:30 PM
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jt512 wrote:
I don't need or want to weight the anchor to test that two quick draws that are right in front of me are properly clipped. There is no reason to. I have eyes.

Jay, you are either bullheaded or trolling, but you always are this way, and this time I'll bite.

Do you think that the victim of this accident did not visually inspect her setup before going off belay? I personally would bet that she did, and thought it looked ok, and was wrong. That's how accidents happen, and that's why they're called accidents. The weather in the NRG was rainy on Saturday. The victim may have been hurrying because of the inclement weather. Do not make the mistake of thinking you could not find yourself in a similar situation and make a similar misjudgment. You cannot deny that simply weighting the rope before going off belay, an act that would literally take no more than one extra second, could have save a life on Saturday.


majid_sabet


Jun 15, 2010, 1:36 PM
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jt512 wrote:
jakedatc wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
circello wrote:
Jay -

Would a simple visual inspection have prevented this accident?

What is the harm in empirically testing your set-up?

Your eyes, no matter how good you claim to be, can fail you. Weighting the system is a simple yes/no query.

excellent point

holy shit.. I AGREE with Majid..

the whole point of this is that Karen had 2 slings that were incorrectly set up and probably looked fine but were actually not.

Visual inspection: pass

Weight test: fail.

Only connect to anchors using equipment that is completely transparent to visual inspection: PASS

Do you weight test your rope to determine if it will hold? How do you know it will?

Do you weight test your harness to determine if it will hold? How do you know it will?

Do you weight test your belay device? your belay loop? your belay carabiner? How do you know any of these things won't fall apart when weighted?

Jay

jay

come on

do not feed non-sense in to this thread. for one, a climber died due to a simple error that was well known in the laws of climbing. visual inspection, physical inspection and weighting the system is a mandatory job and not an option.

I can throw 100s of real cases and flood this thread with accident reports from people who have died due to visual inspection but not doing the real test.


bigjonnyc


Jun 15, 2010, 1:37 PM
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jt512 wrote:
Do you weight test your rope to determine if it will hold? How do you know it will?

Do you weight test your harness to determine if it will hold? How do you know it will?

Do you weight test your belay device? your belay loop? your belay carabiner? How do you know any of these things won't fall apart when weighted?

Jay

The difference here is that you are listing individual pieces of equipment vs. a setup that is made up of multiple pieces of equipment. You are right that most of us do not bother to individually weight each of these pieces. I would guess however, that most of the people on this forum do check their setups, i.e. making sure their knots are tied properly and through both tie in points, making sure their belay 'biner is locked, etc. Do I trust that the slings and 'biners I'm clipping an anchor with will individually stand up to my weight without breaking? Of course I do. Do I visually check my anchor setup and weight it before untying? You'd better fucking believe I do.


jt512


Jun 15, 2010, 1:40 PM
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bigjonnyc wrote:
jt512 wrote:
I don't need or want to weight the anchor to test that two quick draws that are right in front of me are properly clipped. There is no reason to. I have eyes.

Jay, you are either bullheaded or trolling, but you always are this way, and this time I'll bite.

Do you think that the victim of this accident did not visually inspect her setup before going off belay?

I've already addressed this, yet two people now have ignored what I had to say about it. I'll say it exactly one more time. The reason that Karen's visual inspection failed is that she used a system that could not easily be visually inspected. SO DON'T DO THAT! Use a connection to the anchor that is completely transparent to visual inspection; that is, one in which any errors will be visually obvious: two ordinary slings, two quick draws, the rope. No gimmicks, no rubber bands, no hockey tape, no PAS, no daisies. Using two slings, you just check four connections. They're either connected to what they are supposed to be or they are not.

If you feel that you have to weight the anchor to determine whether your connection to the anchor is good, then you are relying on your belayer to do your job for you. It's my job to determine when I'm safe at the anchor, and my job alone.

jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 15, 2010, 1:51 PM)


Partner climboard


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Let's not get away from the root cause of this accident- the very real danger with using strings, rubber bands or other objects on open slings. This is not a safe setup.

Weighting the attachment before untying may have prevented this accident and most people agree that it is a good practice.

Jay obviously has a philosophical argument against this. He is an experienced climber and can make the decision for himself.

Everyone has expressed their points on this, if you want to argue it further take it to another thread, let's leave this one for discussion of this accident.


jakedatc


Jun 15, 2010, 2:14 PM
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well, i'm out. I will still always weight my sling before untying and will weight my rope before undoing my sling. I also weight my rappel device before undoing my sling from rap anchors too. It takes zero amount of time and i feel is one step better than just visual inspection.


yokese


Jun 15, 2010, 2:23 PM
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A very tragic accident, my most sincere condolences to her family and friends.

climboard wrote:
Weighting the attachment before untying may have prevented this accident and most people agree that it is a good practice.

After reading most of the posts in this thread I'm curious to know how many of you actually go off belay to thread the rope through the anchors to be lowered... I never do, unless I'm gonna rappel. I don't even carry a daisy, PAS or extra slings. I do everything with the rope itself and a couple of locking carabiners, and I never get off belay during the set up.


jakedatc


Jun 15, 2010, 2:32 PM
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yokese wrote:
A very tragic accident, my most sincere condolences to her family and friends.

climboard wrote:
Weighting the attachment before untying may have prevented this accident and most people agree that it is a good practice.

After reading most of the posts in this thread I'm curious to know how many of you actually go off belay to thread the rope through the anchors to be lowered... I never do, unless I'm gonna rappel. I don't even carry a daisy, PAS or extra slings. I do everything with the rope itself and a couple of locking carabiners, and I never get off belay during the set up.

how else would you untie your knot while hanging on an anchor?

there is no way of doing this without being off belay in a technical sense. sure they can be holding the rope and giving slack but eventually you have to be tied to the anchor and unweight your knot to thread one end through the anchor.


billl7


Jun 15, 2010, 2:35 PM
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climboard wrote:
Weighting the attachment before untying may have prevented this accident and most people agree that it is a good practice.

Sure, may have prevented in this instance - yes. But we don't have to search the archives very far back to see that over reliance on weighting the attachment can lead to a fatality (S. Windsor rap accident). Imagine a manufacturer that makes those rubber bands strong enough to hold, say, 50 pounds. We collectively need to dig a little deeper for something more solid than weighting the attachment.

So I'm also behind the 100% visual of a system that is easy to inspect (i.e., very simple). Bump test is just to see if one likes the way it might lay under load (e.g., no awkward twists) and not to confirm there is enough strength in the attachment.

Bill L


camhead


Jun 15, 2010, 2:36 PM
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yokese wrote:
A very tragic accident, my most sincere condolences to her family and friends.

climboard wrote:
Weighting the attachment before untying may have prevented this accident and most people agree that it is a good practice.

After reading most of the posts in this thread I'm curious to know how many of you actually go off belay to thread the rope through the anchors to be lowered... I never do, unless I'm gonna rappel. I don't even carry a daisy, PAS or extra slings. I do everything with the rope itself and a couple of locking carabiners, and I never get off belay during the set up.

I never call off belay when cleaning a sport route unless I am going to rappel, in which case I will have discussed it with my belayer beforehand.

Don't use slings, daisies, PAS's or anything like that either for going in direct. Just clip two quickdraws from my belay loop to each of the draws on the anchors (oh no, metal on metal!). No extra gear, no superfluities.

Oh, and in response to whatever logical fallacie jt512 was freaking out about, I personally always weight my gear when I am in direct BEFORE calling for cleaning slack to my belayer. Duh.


camhead


Jun 15, 2010, 2:43 PM
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jakedatc wrote:
yokese wrote:
A very tragic accident, my most sincere condolences to her family and friends.

climboard wrote:
Weighting the attachment before untying may have prevented this accident and most people agree that it is a good practice.

After reading most of the posts in this thread I'm curious to know how many of you actually go off belay to thread the rope through the anchors to be lowered... I never do, unless I'm gonna rappel. I don't even carry a daisy, PAS or extra slings. I do everything with the rope itself and a couple of locking carabiners, and I never get off belay during the set up.

how else would you untie your knot while hanging on an anchor?

there is no way of doing this without being off belay in a technical sense. sure they can be holding the rope and giving slack but eventually you have to be tied to the anchor and unweight your knot to thread one end through the anchor.

Fig8 on a bite into a biner. You wouldn't want to whip on it, but you are never technically off belay. Of course, this is all a moot point if you are cleaning a TR and the rope is in nothing below you.


JAB


Jun 15, 2010, 2:45 PM
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My sincerecest condolences to the family of Karen's.

There have been lots of talk about how to do this or that to prevent this kind of accident. But the fact still remains, that the accident was caused by a misuse of the equipment. Petzl explicitly warns, with the death skull symbol, against this particular practise. The lesson should be simple enough: read the instructions, and do not do something that is explicitly warned against.

Here is the link (again): http://www.petzl.com/...%20L%20FR5900L-B.pdf


billl7


Jun 15, 2010, 2:48 PM
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JAB wrote:
The lesson should be simple enough: read the instructions, and do not do something that is explicitly warned against.
I tend to agree although memory is faulty and virtually none of us climb with the instruction manual for all the gear we carry.

Respectfully,
Bill L


jakedatc


Jun 15, 2010, 2:53 PM
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camhead wrote:
jakedatc wrote:
yokese wrote:
A very tragic accident, my most sincere condolences to her family and friends.

climboard wrote:
Weighting the attachment before untying may have prevented this accident and most people agree that it is a good practice.

After reading most of the posts in this thread I'm curious to know how many of you actually go off belay to thread the rope through the anchors to be lowered... I never do, unless I'm gonna rappel. I don't even carry a daisy, PAS or extra slings. I do everything with the rope itself and a couple of locking carabiners, and I never get off belay during the set up.

how else would you untie your knot while hanging on an anchor?

there is no way of doing this without being off belay in a technical sense. sure they can be holding the rope and giving slack but eventually you have to be tied to the anchor and unweight your knot to thread one end through the anchor.

Fig8 on a bite into a biner. You wouldn't want to whip on it, but you are never technically off belay. Of course, this is all a moot point if you are cleaning a TR and the rope is in nothing below you.

With only the rope you'd have to pull up enough to attach to yourself and attach to the anchor and thread the anchor. at that point any benefits of using the rope are gone.

i agree about cleaning on TR.. if i do that then i would leave the rope going through one of the draws on the anchor. then thread under it.


yokese


Jun 15, 2010, 2:54 PM
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I hope I can explain it well:
I get to the anchor, clip one of the locking biners, then attach to that biner with a clove hitch, get some slack (~1m), pass a bight through the anchors, tie a figure eight on that bight, clip it with the second locking biner to my belay loop, ask for tension and only then I untie the knot on my harness. Then I pass the end of the rope following the previous bight. Sometimes I retie that end to my harness, some other times I'm lowered hanging from the locking biner attached to my belay loop.

Edited. I found this picture from Petzl. It's basically the same method, but I (normally) use a locking biner and a clove hitch instead of a quickdraw.





I'm on belay during the whole process, although with 1m extra slack during a few seconds.

In theory, some anchors might be too small to pass the bight of rope (for instance, chain links). In those cases you do the same process, but instead of passing the bight through the links, you pass it through a locking biner, attach it to your belay loop, and only then you untie the rope from your harness to pass it through the links. That said, I think I've never had to do so, because if the links seem too narrow, I prefer to rappel instead of being lowered.

Edited to add the picture from Petzl


(This post was edited by yokese on Jun 16, 2010, 9:23 AM)
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socalclimber


Jun 15, 2010, 6:22 PM
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100% agreed.

I say this "system" a long time ago from someone at New Jack City and instantly saw the issues. I don't sport climb much or frequent those types of crags. I didn't realize this has become a practice.


gblauer
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Jun 15, 2010, 7:10 PM
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I set up a thread to memorialize Karen here:

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...2;page=unread#unread


majid_sabet


Jun 15, 2010, 8:24 PM
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after looking in to one of my photos, i found out in 1997, one of the two attachment on my harness to main anchor on the multi pitch wall was via one of the draws with retainer holder but I weighted before sitting on it and most likely , it came from my partner's rack.







(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Jun 29, 2010, 12:39 PM)


welle


Jun 16, 2010, 8:21 AM
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billl7 wrote:
JAB wrote:
The lesson should be simple enough: read the instructions, and do not do something that is explicitly warned against.
I tend to agree although memory is faulty and virtually none of us climb with the instruction manual for all the gear we carry.

Respectfully,
Bill L

When I buy my gear, I usually go through the instruction manual that comes with it. Anyone who buys Petzl retainer rings and reads the manual would think twice before putting them on open slings. If you buy your gear from climber-run specialized small shops they would also likely to warn you. The manufacturer warnings of course are not available for items bought second-hand (but you can always find online).

The scariest thing is the people who make their own retainer o-rings out of rubber bands. I was recently advised to put a retainer ring on a Dragon Cam sling for I complained that the stitching was too hard and kept snagging.


dbogardus


Jun 16, 2010, 9:00 AM
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jt512 wrote:
bigjonnyc wrote:
jt512 wrote:
I don't need or want to weight the anchor to test that two quick draws that are right in front of me are properly clipped. There is no reason to. I have eyes.

Jay, you are either bullheaded or trolling, but you always are this way, and this time I'll bite.

Do you think that the victim of this accident did not visually inspect her setup before going off belay?

I've already addressed this, yet two people now have ignored what I had to say about it. I'll say it exactly one more time. The reason that Karen's visual inspection failed is that she used a system that could not easily be visually inspected. SO DON'T DO THAT! Use a connection to the anchor that is completely transparent to visual inspection; that is, one in which any errors will be visually obvious: two ordinary slings, two quick draws, the rope. No gimmicks, no rubber bands, no hockey tape, no PAS, no daisies. Using two slings, you just check four connections. They're either connected to what they are supposed to be or they are not.

If you feel that you have to weight the anchor to determine whether your connection to the anchor is good, then you are relying on your belayer to do your job for you. It's my job to determine when I'm safe at the anchor, and my job alone.

jay

I bet you'll explain this at least once more in this thread.


stickyfingerz


Jun 16, 2010, 10:37 AM
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welle wrote:
Anyone who buys Petzl retainer rings and reads the manual would think twice before putting them on open slings.

Actually, this is not necessarily possible. I work at a small gear shop and when we receive packages of Petzl strings, they are shipped in a ziplock baggie of somewhere around 10-12. (Can't remember the exact amount.) Anyway, even though the strings are sold individually, there is only 1 copy of the manual. Unless the customer buys the entire baggie, they will probably not get the copy of the manual.

I'll definitely be sure to warn people in the future about the dangers of using them with open slings, but there are plenty of people who have bought them in the past who were blissfully unaware of the risk.


bigjonnyc


Jun 16, 2010, 10:47 AM
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stickyfingerz wrote:
welle wrote:
Anyone who buys Petzl retainer rings and reads the manual would think twice before putting them on open slings.

Actually, this is not necessarily possible. I work at a small gear shop and when we receive packages of Petzl strings, they are shipped in a ziplock baggie of somewhere around 10-12. (Can't remember the exact amount.) Anyway, even though the strings are sold individually, there is only 1 copy of the manual. Unless the customer buys the entire baggie, they will probably not get the copy of the manual.

I'll definitely be sure to warn people in the future about the dangers of using them with open slings, but there are plenty of people who have bought them in the past who were blissfully unaware of the risk.

It seems to me that you ought to be photocopying the safety information that came with the gear and furnishing a copy with every part sold.


stickyfingerz


Jun 16, 2010, 11:53 AM
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bigjonnyc wrote:
stickyfingerz wrote:
welle wrote:
Anyone who buys Petzl retainer rings and reads the manual would think twice before putting them on open slings.

Actually, this is not necessarily possible. I work at a small gear shop and when we receive packages of Petzl strings, they are shipped in a ziplock baggie of somewhere around 10-12. (Can't remember the exact amount.) Anyway, even though the strings are sold individually, there is only 1 copy of the manual. Unless the customer buys the entire baggie, they will probably not get the copy of the manual.

I'll definitely be sure to warn people in the future about the dangers of using them with open slings, but there are plenty of people who have bought them in the past who were blissfully unaware of the risk.

It seems to me that you ought to be photocopying the safety information that came with the gear and furnishing a copy with every part sold.

It seems to me that the manufacturer ought to supply a copy of the safety information with every unit they send.


bill413


Jun 16, 2010, 12:09 PM
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stickyfingerz wrote:
bigjonnyc wrote:
stickyfingerz wrote:
welle wrote:
Anyone who buys Petzl retainer rings and reads the manual would think twice before putting them on open slings.

Actually, this is not necessarily possible. I work at a small gear shop and when we receive packages of Petzl strings, they are shipped in a ziplock baggie of somewhere around 10-12. (Can't remember the exact amount.) Anyway, even though the strings are sold individually, there is only 1 copy of the manual. Unless the customer buys the entire baggie, they will probably not get the copy of the manual.

I'll definitely be sure to warn people in the future about the dangers of using them with open slings, but there are plenty of people who have bought them in the past who were blissfully unaware of the risk.

It seems to me that you ought to be photocopying the safety information that came with the gear and furnishing a copy with every part sold.

It seems to me that the manufacturer ought to supply a copy of the safety information with every unit they send.

A full, 19 page book with every rubber band. Sigh.


Partner climboard


Jun 16, 2010, 12:18 PM
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I've only seen them in packs of 10. Are you sure they are intended for individual sale?


stickyfingerz


Jun 16, 2010, 4:44 PM
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climboard wrote:
I've only seen them in packs of 10. Are you sure they are intended for individual sale?

I'm not sure what Petzl intends, but we sell them individually and I don't think I've ever had a customer who wanted to buy 10 at once.

BTW, this is not a practice unique to Petzl, BD ships their biners bundled in 5's with only one safety packet per bundle and we routinely receive stoppers without their safety sheet included.


currupt4130


Jun 16, 2010, 5:23 PM
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circello wrote:
Jay -

Would a simple visual inspection have prevented this accident?

What is the harm in empirically testing your set-up?

Your eyes, no matter how good you claim to be, can fail you. Weighting the system is a simple yes/no query.

There's this saying we like to use when teaching gun safety to people, it refers to checking the gun to make sure it's empty and why we ask people to visually and physically inspect the chamber.

"We often look, but do not see."

I think this applies well to J's logic. It's asinine to think that weighting your slings before going off belay is somehow inferior to just visually checking your gear.

Before I get off the ground I physically touch my three points, my knot, and my tie in points to make sure everything is in good working order. It takes all of two seconds and helps to insure safety.

Of course, like most people I check my gear visually as I pull it out of my bag. Probably not very thoroughly, but I do glance at critical points and make mental notes that everything still looks good.

For example, I know that the plastic tag sewn onto the tie in point of my Wild Country Harness has a tear in it. Most likely from being smashed into the upper tie in point, but I know it's there.


(This post was edited by currupt4130 on Jun 16, 2010, 5:32 PM)


jt512


Jun 16, 2010, 6:12 PM
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currupt4130 wrote:
circello wrote:
Jay -

Would a simple visual inspection have prevented this accident?

What is the harm in empirically testing your set-up?

Your eyes, no matter how good you claim to be, can fail you. Weighting the system is a simple yes/no query.

There's this saying we like to use when teaching gun safety to people, it refers to checking the gun to make sure it's empty and why we ask people to visually and physically inspect the chamber.

"We often look, but do not see."

I think this applies well to J's logic.

This is a false analogy. We're not talking about touching the anchor and our connections to it; we're talking about weighting it. If you want to touch your connections to the anchor, like you touch your gun (this is my rifle...), as an aid to visual checking, then I would encourage you to do it. You're involving more senses, so it should be a more rigorous check. But, then it's still all you. You are still keeping the full responsibility of checking your attachment to the anchor on your own shoulders, where, in my opinion, it belongs. Think of how many situations there are when attaching to an anchor, there is no opportunity to check it with body weight (rapping into a crag), or when such a body weight check would be worthless (an anchor on a multipitch climb). In those cases, you have only yourself to rely on. I suspect that having come originally from a trad climbing background, and usually being the more experienced climber in the partnership, I learned this self-reliance at the outset, and then transfered it to the sport climbing world. Many climbers today probably believe that if they screw up, then they'll be saved by their belayer (and if he screws up, he'll be saved by his autolocking belay device), but this sort of thinking, when it comes to anchoring, is anathema to me.

Even if you do test-weight your anchor, if you haven't checked your connection so thoroughly that you aren't completely convinced that it is bomber, and that the test is therefore completely superfluous, you're doing something very wrong.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 16, 2010, 6:18 PM)


currupt4130


Jun 16, 2010, 7:09 PM
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jt512 wrote:
currupt4130 wrote:
circello wrote:
Jay -

Would a simple visual inspection have prevented this accident?

What is the harm in empirically testing your set-up?

Your eyes, no matter how good you claim to be, can fail you. Weighting the system is a simple yes/no query.

There's this saying we like to use when teaching gun safety to people, it refers to checking the gun to make sure it's empty and why we ask people to visually and physically inspect the chamber.

"We often look, but do not see."

I think this applies well to J's logic.

This is a false analogy. We're not talking about touching the anchor and our connections to it; we're talking about weighting it. If you want to touch your connections to the anchor, like you touch your gun (this is my rifle...), as an aid to visual checking, then I would encourage you to do it. You're involving more senses, so it should be a more rigorous check. But, then it's still all you. You are still keeping the full responsibility of checking your attachment to the anchor on your own shoulders, where, in my opinion, it belongs. Think of how many situations there are when attaching to an anchor, there is no opportunity to check it with body weight (rapping into a crag), or when such a body weight check would be worthless (an anchor on a multipitch climb). In those cases, you have only yourself to rely on. I suspect that having come originally from a trad climbing background, and usually being the more experienced climber in the partnership, I learned this self-reliance at the outset, and then transfered it to the sport climbing world. Many climbers today probably believe that if they screw up, then they'll be saved by their belayer (and if he screws up, he'll be saved by his autolocking belay device), but this sort of thinking, when it comes to anchoring, is anathema to me.

Even if you do test-weight your anchor, if you haven't checked your connection so thoroughly that you aren't completely convinced that it is bomber, and that the test is therefore completely superfluous, you're doing something very wrong.

Jay

You don't have to touch the anchors to get a physical and not visual sense of what something feels like. You can lean back in your harness and understand if something is able to hold body weight.

I'm not some yuppie sport climber who only clips bolts, so please don't mistake me for a jackass with no experience with anything other than some biners and dyneema.

But it really doesn't matter because you won't cede your ego to anyone elses ideas or even logic in some sort of attempt to look like some e-badass amidst your malcontempt for what seems like the entire climbing community except for your small elite circle.


jt512


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Re: [currupt4130] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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currupt4130 wrote:
I'm not some yuppie sport climber who only clips bolts, so please don't mistake me for a jackass with no experience with anything other than some biners and dyneema.

I greatly respect your climbing experience, both years of it, in fact.

Jay


currupt4130


Jun 16, 2010, 7:21 PM
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Re: [jt512] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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Thank you, the amount of time I've been registered to this site has no bearing on how long I've been climbing or how much experience I have.

But this is turning into a pissing match in an accident thread so I'm going to step out.

Edited for my removal from this discussion.


(This post was edited by currupt4130 on Jun 16, 2010, 7:22 PM)


patto


Jun 16, 2010, 7:23 PM
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Re: [currupt4130] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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currupt4130 wrote:
You don't have to touch the anchors to get a physical and not visual sense of what something feels like. You can lean back in your harness and understand if something is able to hold body weight.

I'm not some yuppie sport climber who only clips bolts, so please don't mistake me for a jackass with no experience with anything other than some biners and dyneema.

But it really doesn't matter because you won't cede your ego to anyone elses ideas or even logic in some sort of attempt to look like some e-badass amidst your malcontempt for what seems like the entire climbing community except for your small elite circle.

Sig worthy currupt4130. Wink

Testing an anchor or rappel with body weight before putting it to use I thought was standard practice and common sense.


jt512


Jun 16, 2010, 7:53 PM
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Re: [patto] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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patto wrote:
currupt4130 wrote:
You don't have to touch the anchors to get a physical and not visual sense of what something feels like. You can lean back in your harness and understand if something is able to hold body weight.

I'm not some yuppie sport climber who only clips bolts, so please don't mistake me for a jackass with no experience with anything other than some biners and dyneema.

But it really doesn't matter because you won't cede your ego to anyone elses ideas or even logic in some sort of attempt to look like some e-badass amidst your malcontempt for what seems like the entire climbing community except for your small elite circle.

Sig worthy currupt4130. Wink

Testing an anchor or rappel with body weight before putting it to use I thought was standard practice and common sense.

"Anchor or rappel"? What about a rappel anchor? When you load a rappel anchor with your body weight, it ain't no test, there ain't no belayer, and you'd better be certain that however you are attached to it is bombroof. All I'm saying is that you should have exactly the same mindset at a sport anchor.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 16, 2010, 8:09 PM)


patto


Jun 16, 2010, 9:27 PM
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Re: [jt512] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
"Anchor or rappel"? What about a rappel anchor? When you load a rappel anchor with your body weight, it ain't no test, there ain't no belayer, and you'd better be certain that however you are attached to it is bombroof. All I'm saying is that you should have exactly the same mindset at a sport anchor.

Jay

On a bolted rappel anchor I connect to it with a safety sling. I set up my rappel and then weight my rappel system before removing my safety backup. This tests my rappel system at body weigh before I trust my life to it.

There have been numerous rappelling injuries and deaths reported on this site that would have been prevented had this sort of checking taken place.

Sure it is better not to screw up in the first place. But this simple check makes sense. Furthermore it seems natural and common sense to do it this way. Along the same lines I test nuts and autolocking belay devices with a tug.


jt512


Jun 16, 2010, 10:04 PM
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Re: [patto] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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patto wrote:
jt512 wrote:
"Anchor or rappel"? What about a rappel anchor? When you load a rappel anchor with your body weight, it ain't no test, there ain't no belayer, and you'd better be certain that however you are attached to it is bombroof. All I'm saying is that you should have exactly the same mindset at a sport anchor.

Jay

On a bolted rappel anchor I connect to it with a safety sling. I set up my rappel and then weight my rappel system before removing my safety backup.

And how do you body-weight-test your attachment to the anchor with your "safety sling"? And if you can rely on visual inspection to determine that you are safely connected to a bolted rap anchor via your "safety sling," then why can't you rely on visual inspection to determine that you are safely connected to a sport anchor via your non-safety (?) slings.

And people have the gall to accuse me of ignoring their logic?

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 16, 2010, 10:07 PM)


chenzen


Jun 17, 2010, 12:55 AM
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Re: [jt512] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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"This is a false analogy. We're not talking about touching the anchor and our connections to it; we're talking about weighting it. If you want to touch your connections to the anchor, like you touch your gun (this is my rifle...), as an aid to visual checking, then I would encourage you to do it. You're involving more senses, so it should be a more rigorous check. But, then it's still all you. You are still keeping the full responsibility of checking your attachment to the anchor on your own shoulders, where, in my opinion, it belongs."

The gun analogy is a valid one. Just as you are correct that the full responsibility of checking your attachment to the anchor (and building that anchor in trad) is on your shoulders alone, the same is true with the gun handler. They alone are responsible for the potential life and death consequences of their actions. Both situations have inherent risk. Which is why both practitioners usually employ safety systems which are REDUNDANT in key aspects (I can't believe it took 6 pages for that word to show up). Another catch phrase is "universal precaution". A gun handler should assume the gun is loaded until verified (you may argue that visual inspection is the verification, but we could just easily "test" to see if bullets fall out. Just as when you weight an anchor you are testing to see if you fall.) In safety systems where consequences are severe redundancy is often the best way to catch all mistakes, from the close calls to the tragic. Especially when you are engaged in an activity where you push yourself to physical and mental exhaustion. Why not use the most rigorous check?


"Think of how many situations there are when attaching to an anchor, there is no opportunity to check it with body weight (rapping into a crag)
, or when such a body weight check would be worthless (an anchor on a multipitch climb). In those cases, you have only yourself to rely on. "

This is why these situations are so dangerous! There is no opportunity for redundancy. You say there is no opportunity to test the system, but that is exactly what you do once you are using the system. You only know the anchor is bomber when you are hanging from it and lowering down. Everything else up to that point is speculation, experienced and educated speculation, but speculation none the less. Your visual assessment is only verified once the physics are engaged.


" Many climbers today probably believe that if they screw up, then they'll be saved by their belayer "

Anyone climbing while tied into rope who "screws up" will need to be saved by their belayer. Leader, follower, top roper, sport, trad anyone. Even aid soloists, their system is the belay.

"but this sort of thinking, when it comes to anchoring, is anathema to me."

Are you saying when you build an anchor you do not have the intention of saving someone from a fall, either while climbing, lowering or rappelling? You write about self reliance, but at some point the rope gets weighted.

"Even if you do test-weight your anchor, if you haven't checked your connection so thoroughly that you aren't completely convinced that it is bomber, and that the test is therefore completely superfluous, you're doing something very wrong."

The test may seem superfluous in action, but it is redundant in intent. Redundancy in safety systems inherently demands that the user honestly questions themselves, first and foremost. Sometimes seemingly to the point of personal insult, but safety should be the priority.
Of course in climbing redundancy is not always an option. The first piece/bolt off the ground is only one piece and if it fails the test of you falling there is no backup. On some routes if you blow the second clip there might not be much a belayer can do to keep you off the ground. Sometimes in the alpine environment single point anchors are agreed upon because fast and light is the approach taken for safety. Climbing is dangerous. I believe dangerous enough to warrant a redundant safety system "whenever possible", but I agree with those who modify this to "whenever reasonable" based on personal preference. But this has to be agreed upon with your partner. Jay, I have no doubt you will continue to do what you have always done, but I am left wondering why? Why not test your attachments and the anchor while you are still on belay? When redundancy is already in place. You wrote this puts more reliance on the belayer and the last bolt, and this is true, because the reliability if your attachment and anchor has yet to be verified. (if the reliability of your belayer is in question you may want to asses and test a new partner)
When I approach an anchor I physically test it with the only thing that matters in climbing, my weight (not my eyesight and not my opinion). And I do this before I remove myself from the safety system I created to responsibly get to that point. Tragedies such as the OP always remind me to question myself and the egotistical assumptions I have about why I do what I do, if only for the sake of safety. Because being a safe climber is the only way to be a long time climber and I hope to be doing this for a long, long time.

Be Safe, Have Fun
RIP Karen (I never knew you, but somehow I miss you)


Partner j_ung


Jun 17, 2010, 5:03 AM
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Re: [currupt4130] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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currupt4130 wrote:
But it really doesn't matter...

...circle.

You folks are all going to continue to disagree. I think you've all made your points well, but I doubt anybody will add anything substantially new to this wing of the discussion. What say we stop here before things get worse?


indy_md


Jun 29, 2010, 12:59 PM
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Re: [jt512] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
No, no one tests their connection to a sport anchor, ever. At most, you inspect the bolts, but you assume implicitly that the draws or slings you're connecting to the anchors are 100% reliable. {...}

And ad nauseum for 3 or 4 more pages.

Just as a datapoint, I don't sport climb all that often, but when I do, I always weight-test my slings. As do most everyone I know around here with whom I climb. So I would put forth that your statement, "no one tests their connection...ever", a rather broadsweeping statement, is incorrect. Given the responses of a number of other people, maybe it's just you (and your group of climbing buds?) who don't (weight) test your connection to the anchor?

I understand where your logic is in not weight testing. But I have to be on the other side of the fence, that sometimes your eyes can deceive you, don't trust them (exclusively).


jt512


Jun 29, 2010, 1:22 PM
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Re: [indy_md] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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indy_md wrote:
jt512 wrote:
No, no one tests their connection to a sport anchor, ever. At most, you inspect the bolts, but you assume implicitly that the draws or slings you're connecting to the anchors are 100% reliable. {...}

And ad nauseum for 3 or 4 more pages.

Just as a datapoint, I don't sport climb all that often, but when I do, I always weight-test my slings. As do most everyone I know around here with whom I climb. So I would put forth that your statement, "no one tests their connection...ever", a rather broadsweeping statement, is incorrect.

Evidently.

Jay


majid_sabet


Jun 29, 2010, 8:39 PM
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Re: [mike_devildog] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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Not sure if this was mentioned here or not but from several emails that was exchanged regarding this incident, she was using two 24 " sling girth hitched to her harness. She was standing on a ledge (1-2 feet wide) . At the time of accident, her belay(rap) device was attached to back of her harness suggesting that she was not setup for rapping yet and most likely, she had the sling rigged prior to her ascent. two locking biner and two broken retainer were found at anchor station.


(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Jun 29, 2010, 8:40 PM)


justroberto


Jun 29, 2010, 9:01 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
Not sure if this was mentioned here or not ...
Then why not read first before posting? Especially when some of your intel is wrong, and most of it is irrelevant to the lessons to be learned from this tragedy.


(This post was edited by justroberto on Jun 29, 2010, 9:04 PM)


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