Forums: Climbing Information: Accident and Incident Analysis:
Accident Kaymoor NRG
RSS FeedRSS Feeds for Accident and Incident Analysis

Premier Sponsor:

 
First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next page Last page  View All


yokese


Jun 15, 2010, 2:54 PM
Post #126 of 152 (5611 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jan 17, 2006
Posts: 672

Re: [jakedatc] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I hope I can explain it well:
I get to the anchor, clip one of the locking biners, then attach to that biner with a clove hitch, get some slack (~1m), pass a bight through the anchors, tie a figure eight on that bight, clip it with the second locking biner to my belay loop, ask for tension and only then I untie the knot on my harness. Then I pass the end of the rope following the previous bight. Sometimes I retie that end to my harness, some other times I'm lowered hanging from the locking biner attached to my belay loop.

Edited. I found this picture from Petzl. It's basically the same method, but I (normally) use a locking biner and a clove hitch instead of a quickdraw.





I'm on belay during the whole process, although with 1m extra slack during a few seconds.

In theory, some anchors might be too small to pass the bight of rope (for instance, chain links). In those cases you do the same process, but instead of passing the bight through the links, you pass it through a locking biner, attach it to your belay loop, and only then you untie the rope from your harness to pass it through the links. That said, I think I've never had to do so, because if the links seem too narrow, I prefer to rappel instead of being lowered.

Edited to add the picture from Petzl


(This post was edited by yokese on Jun 16, 2010, 9:23 AM)
Attachments: petzl.jpg (113 KB)


socalclimber


Jun 15, 2010, 6:22 PM
Post #127 of 152 (5509 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 27, 2001
Posts: 2436

Re: [camhead] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

100% agreed.

I say this "system" a long time ago from someone at New Jack City and instantly saw the issues. I don't sport climb much or frequent those types of crags. I didn't realize this has become a practice.


gblauer
Moderator

Jun 15, 2010, 7:10 PM
Post #128 of 152 (5475 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 3, 2002
Posts: 2819

Re: [socalclimber] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

I set up a thread to memorialize Karen here:

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...2;page=unread#unread


majid_sabet


Jun 15, 2010, 8:24 PM
Post #129 of 152 (5425 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 12, 2002
Posts: 8368

Re: [gblauer] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

after looking in to one of my photos, i found out in 1997, one of the two attachment on my harness to main anchor on the multi pitch wall was via one of the draws with retainer holder but I weighted before sitting on it and most likely , it came from my partner's rack.







(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Jun 29, 2010, 12:39 PM)


welle


Jun 16, 2010, 8:21 AM
Post #130 of 152 (5302 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 8, 2008
Posts: 212

Re: [billl7] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

billl7 wrote:
JAB wrote:
The lesson should be simple enough: read the instructions, and do not do something that is explicitly warned against.
I tend to agree although memory is faulty and virtually none of us climb with the instruction manual for all the gear we carry.

Respectfully,
Bill L

When I buy my gear, I usually go through the instruction manual that comes with it. Anyone who buys Petzl retainer rings and reads the manual would think twice before putting them on open slings. If you buy your gear from climber-run specialized small shops they would also likely to warn you. The manufacturer warnings of course are not available for items bought second-hand (but you can always find online).

The scariest thing is the people who make their own retainer o-rings out of rubber bands. I was recently advised to put a retainer ring on a Dragon Cam sling for I complained that the stitching was too hard and kept snagging.


dbogardus


Jun 16, 2010, 9:00 AM
Post #131 of 152 (5264 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 27, 2009
Posts: 148

Re: [jt512] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (2 ratings)  
Can't Post

jt512 wrote:
bigjonnyc wrote:
jt512 wrote:
I don't need or want to weight the anchor to test that two quick draws that are right in front of me are properly clipped. There is no reason to. I have eyes.

Jay, you are either bullheaded or trolling, but you always are this way, and this time I'll bite.

Do you think that the victim of this accident did not visually inspect her setup before going off belay?

I've already addressed this, yet two people now have ignored what I had to say about it. I'll say it exactly one more time. The reason that Karen's visual inspection failed is that she used a system that could not easily be visually inspected. SO DON'T DO THAT! Use a connection to the anchor that is completely transparent to visual inspection; that is, one in which any errors will be visually obvious: two ordinary slings, two quick draws, the rope. No gimmicks, no rubber bands, no hockey tape, no PAS, no daisies. Using two slings, you just check four connections. They're either connected to what they are supposed to be or they are not.

If you feel that you have to weight the anchor to determine whether your connection to the anchor is good, then you are relying on your belayer to do your job for you. It's my job to determine when I'm safe at the anchor, and my job alone.

jay

I bet you'll explain this at least once more in this thread.


stickyfingerz


Jun 16, 2010, 10:37 AM
Post #132 of 152 (5181 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 29, 2005
Posts: 110

Re: [welle] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

welle wrote:
Anyone who buys Petzl retainer rings and reads the manual would think twice before putting them on open slings.

Actually, this is not necessarily possible. I work at a small gear shop and when we receive packages of Petzl strings, they are shipped in a ziplock baggie of somewhere around 10-12. (Can't remember the exact amount.) Anyway, even though the strings are sold individually, there is only 1 copy of the manual. Unless the customer buys the entire baggie, they will probably not get the copy of the manual.

I'll definitely be sure to warn people in the future about the dangers of using them with open slings, but there are plenty of people who have bought them in the past who were blissfully unaware of the risk.


bigjonnyc


Jun 16, 2010, 10:47 AM
Post #133 of 152 (5169 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 17, 2004
Posts: 368

Re: [stickyfingerz] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

stickyfingerz wrote:
welle wrote:
Anyone who buys Petzl retainer rings and reads the manual would think twice before putting them on open slings.

Actually, this is not necessarily possible. I work at a small gear shop and when we receive packages of Petzl strings, they are shipped in a ziplock baggie of somewhere around 10-12. (Can't remember the exact amount.) Anyway, even though the strings are sold individually, there is only 1 copy of the manual. Unless the customer buys the entire baggie, they will probably not get the copy of the manual.

I'll definitely be sure to warn people in the future about the dangers of using them with open slings, but there are plenty of people who have bought them in the past who were blissfully unaware of the risk.

It seems to me that you ought to be photocopying the safety information that came with the gear and furnishing a copy with every part sold.


stickyfingerz


Jun 16, 2010, 11:53 AM
Post #134 of 152 (5117 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 29, 2005
Posts: 110

Re: [bigjonnyc] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

bigjonnyc wrote:
stickyfingerz wrote:
welle wrote:
Anyone who buys Petzl retainer rings and reads the manual would think twice before putting them on open slings.

Actually, this is not necessarily possible. I work at a small gear shop and when we receive packages of Petzl strings, they are shipped in a ziplock baggie of somewhere around 10-12. (Can't remember the exact amount.) Anyway, even though the strings are sold individually, there is only 1 copy of the manual. Unless the customer buys the entire baggie, they will probably not get the copy of the manual.

I'll definitely be sure to warn people in the future about the dangers of using them with open slings, but there are plenty of people who have bought them in the past who were blissfully unaware of the risk.

It seems to me that you ought to be photocopying the safety information that came with the gear and furnishing a copy with every part sold.

It seems to me that the manufacturer ought to supply a copy of the safety information with every unit they send.


bill413


Jun 16, 2010, 12:09 PM
Post #135 of 152 (5107 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 19, 2004
Posts: 5674

Re: [stickyfingerz] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

stickyfingerz wrote:
bigjonnyc wrote:
stickyfingerz wrote:
welle wrote:
Anyone who buys Petzl retainer rings and reads the manual would think twice before putting them on open slings.

Actually, this is not necessarily possible. I work at a small gear shop and when we receive packages of Petzl strings, they are shipped in a ziplock baggie of somewhere around 10-12. (Can't remember the exact amount.) Anyway, even though the strings are sold individually, there is only 1 copy of the manual. Unless the customer buys the entire baggie, they will probably not get the copy of the manual.

I'll definitely be sure to warn people in the future about the dangers of using them with open slings, but there are plenty of people who have bought them in the past who were blissfully unaware of the risk.

It seems to me that you ought to be photocopying the safety information that came with the gear and furnishing a copy with every part sold.

It seems to me that the manufacturer ought to supply a copy of the safety information with every unit they send.

A full, 19 page book with every rubber band. Sigh.


Partner climboard


Jun 16, 2010, 12:18 PM
Post #136 of 152 (5089 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 10, 2001
Posts: 503

Re: [stickyfingerz] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I've only seen them in packs of 10. Are you sure they are intended for individual sale?


stickyfingerz


Jun 16, 2010, 4:44 PM
Post #137 of 152 (5003 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 29, 2005
Posts: 110

Re: [climboard] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

climboard wrote:
I've only seen them in packs of 10. Are you sure they are intended for individual sale?

I'm not sure what Petzl intends, but we sell them individually and I don't think I've ever had a customer who wanted to buy 10 at once.

BTW, this is not a practice unique to Petzl, BD ships their biners bundled in 5's with only one safety packet per bundle and we routinely receive stoppers without their safety sheet included.


currupt4130


Jun 16, 2010, 5:23 PM
Post #138 of 152 (4978 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 6, 2008
Posts: 515

Re: [circello] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

circello wrote:
Jay -

Would a simple visual inspection have prevented this accident?

What is the harm in empirically testing your set-up?

Your eyes, no matter how good you claim to be, can fail you. Weighting the system is a simple yes/no query.

There's this saying we like to use when teaching gun safety to people, it refers to checking the gun to make sure it's empty and why we ask people to visually and physically inspect the chamber.

"We often look, but do not see."

I think this applies well to J's logic. It's asinine to think that weighting your slings before going off belay is somehow inferior to just visually checking your gear.

Before I get off the ground I physically touch my three points, my knot, and my tie in points to make sure everything is in good working order. It takes all of two seconds and helps to insure safety.

Of course, like most people I check my gear visually as I pull it out of my bag. Probably not very thoroughly, but I do glance at critical points and make mental notes that everything still looks good.

For example, I know that the plastic tag sewn onto the tie in point of my Wild Country Harness has a tear in it. Most likely from being smashed into the upper tie in point, but I know it's there.


(This post was edited by currupt4130 on Jun 16, 2010, 5:32 PM)


jt512


Jun 16, 2010, 6:12 PM
Post #139 of 152 (4953 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21893

Re: [currupt4130] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

currupt4130 wrote:
circello wrote:
Jay -

Would a simple visual inspection have prevented this accident?

What is the harm in empirically testing your set-up?

Your eyes, no matter how good you claim to be, can fail you. Weighting the system is a simple yes/no query.

There's this saying we like to use when teaching gun safety to people, it refers to checking the gun to make sure it's empty and why we ask people to visually and physically inspect the chamber.

"We often look, but do not see."

I think this applies well to J's logic.

This is a false analogy. We're not talking about touching the anchor and our connections to it; we're talking about weighting it. If you want to touch your connections to the anchor, like you touch your gun (this is my rifle...), as an aid to visual checking, then I would encourage you to do it. You're involving more senses, so it should be a more rigorous check. But, then it's still all you. You are still keeping the full responsibility of checking your attachment to the anchor on your own shoulders, where, in my opinion, it belongs. Think of how many situations there are when attaching to an anchor, there is no opportunity to check it with body weight (rapping into a crag), or when such a body weight check would be worthless (an anchor on a multipitch climb). In those cases, you have only yourself to rely on. I suspect that having come originally from a trad climbing background, and usually being the more experienced climber in the partnership, I learned this self-reliance at the outset, and then transfered it to the sport climbing world. Many climbers today probably believe that if they screw up, then they'll be saved by their belayer (and if he screws up, he'll be saved by his autolocking belay device), but this sort of thinking, when it comes to anchoring, is anathema to me.

Even if you do test-weight your anchor, if you haven't checked your connection so thoroughly that you aren't completely convinced that it is bomber, and that the test is therefore completely superfluous, you're doing something very wrong.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 16, 2010, 6:18 PM)


currupt4130


Jun 16, 2010, 7:09 PM
Post #140 of 152 (4921 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 6, 2008
Posts: 515

Re: [jt512] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (2 ratings)  
Can't Post

jt512 wrote:
currupt4130 wrote:
circello wrote:
Jay -

Would a simple visual inspection have prevented this accident?

What is the harm in empirically testing your set-up?

Your eyes, no matter how good you claim to be, can fail you. Weighting the system is a simple yes/no query.

There's this saying we like to use when teaching gun safety to people, it refers to checking the gun to make sure it's empty and why we ask people to visually and physically inspect the chamber.

"We often look, but do not see."

I think this applies well to J's logic.

This is a false analogy. We're not talking about touching the anchor and our connections to it; we're talking about weighting it. If you want to touch your connections to the anchor, like you touch your gun (this is my rifle...), as an aid to visual checking, then I would encourage you to do it. You're involving more senses, so it should be a more rigorous check. But, then it's still all you. You are still keeping the full responsibility of checking your attachment to the anchor on your own shoulders, where, in my opinion, it belongs. Think of how many situations there are when attaching to an anchor, there is no opportunity to check it with body weight (rapping into a crag), or when such a body weight check would be worthless (an anchor on a multipitch climb). In those cases, you have only yourself to rely on. I suspect that having come originally from a trad climbing background, and usually being the more experienced climber in the partnership, I learned this self-reliance at the outset, and then transfered it to the sport climbing world. Many climbers today probably believe that if they screw up, then they'll be saved by their belayer (and if he screws up, he'll be saved by his autolocking belay device), but this sort of thinking, when it comes to anchoring, is anathema to me.

Even if you do test-weight your anchor, if you haven't checked your connection so thoroughly that you aren't completely convinced that it is bomber, and that the test is therefore completely superfluous, you're doing something very wrong.

Jay

You don't have to touch the anchors to get a physical and not visual sense of what something feels like. You can lean back in your harness and understand if something is able to hold body weight.

I'm not some yuppie sport climber who only clips bolts, so please don't mistake me for a jackass with no experience with anything other than some biners and dyneema.

But it really doesn't matter because you won't cede your ego to anyone elses ideas or even logic in some sort of attempt to look like some e-badass amidst your malcontempt for what seems like the entire climbing community except for your small elite circle.


jt512


Jun 16, 2010, 7:14 PM
Post #141 of 152 (4913 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21893

Re: [currupt4130] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (6 ratings)  
Can't Post

currupt4130 wrote:
I'm not some yuppie sport climber who only clips bolts, so please don't mistake me for a jackass with no experience with anything other than some biners and dyneema.

I greatly respect your climbing experience, both years of it, in fact.

Jay


currupt4130


Jun 16, 2010, 7:21 PM
Post #142 of 152 (4906 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 6, 2008
Posts: 515

Re: [jt512] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Thank you, the amount of time I've been registered to this site has no bearing on how long I've been climbing or how much experience I have.

But this is turning into a pissing match in an accident thread so I'm going to step out.

Edited for my removal from this discussion.


(This post was edited by currupt4130 on Jun 16, 2010, 7:22 PM)


patto


Jun 16, 2010, 7:23 PM
Post #143 of 152 (4899 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 14, 2005
Posts: 1452

Re: [currupt4130] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (2 ratings)  
Can't Post

currupt4130 wrote:
You don't have to touch the anchors to get a physical and not visual sense of what something feels like. You can lean back in your harness and understand if something is able to hold body weight.

I'm not some yuppie sport climber who only clips bolts, so please don't mistake me for a jackass with no experience with anything other than some biners and dyneema.

But it really doesn't matter because you won't cede your ego to anyone elses ideas or even logic in some sort of attempt to look like some e-badass amidst your malcontempt for what seems like the entire climbing community except for your small elite circle.

Sig worthy currupt4130. Wink

Testing an anchor or rappel with body weight before putting it to use I thought was standard practice and common sense.


jt512


Jun 16, 2010, 7:53 PM
Post #144 of 152 (4876 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21893

Re: [patto] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (3 ratings)  
Can't Post

patto wrote:
currupt4130 wrote:
You don't have to touch the anchors to get a physical and not visual sense of what something feels like. You can lean back in your harness and understand if something is able to hold body weight.

I'm not some yuppie sport climber who only clips bolts, so please don't mistake me for a jackass with no experience with anything other than some biners and dyneema.

But it really doesn't matter because you won't cede your ego to anyone elses ideas or even logic in some sort of attempt to look like some e-badass amidst your malcontempt for what seems like the entire climbing community except for your small elite circle.

Sig worthy currupt4130. Wink

Testing an anchor or rappel with body weight before putting it to use I thought was standard practice and common sense.

"Anchor or rappel"? What about a rappel anchor? When you load a rappel anchor with your body weight, it ain't no test, there ain't no belayer, and you'd better be certain that however you are attached to it is bombroof. All I'm saying is that you should have exactly the same mindset at a sport anchor.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 16, 2010, 8:09 PM)


patto


Jun 16, 2010, 9:27 PM
Post #145 of 152 (4842 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 14, 2005
Posts: 1452

Re: [jt512] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

jt512 wrote:
"Anchor or rappel"? What about a rappel anchor? When you load a rappel anchor with your body weight, it ain't no test, there ain't no belayer, and you'd better be certain that however you are attached to it is bombroof. All I'm saying is that you should have exactly the same mindset at a sport anchor.

Jay

On a bolted rappel anchor I connect to it with a safety sling. I set up my rappel and then weight my rappel system before removing my safety backup. This tests my rappel system at body weigh before I trust my life to it.

There have been numerous rappelling injuries and deaths reported on this site that would have been prevented had this sort of checking taken place.

Sure it is better not to screw up in the first place. But this simple check makes sense. Furthermore it seems natural and common sense to do it this way. Along the same lines I test nuts and autolocking belay devices with a tug.


jt512


Jun 16, 2010, 10:04 PM
Post #146 of 152 (4827 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21893

Re: [patto] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (4 ratings)  
Can't Post

patto wrote:
jt512 wrote:
"Anchor or rappel"? What about a rappel anchor? When you load a rappel anchor with your body weight, it ain't no test, there ain't no belayer, and you'd better be certain that however you are attached to it is bombroof. All I'm saying is that you should have exactly the same mindset at a sport anchor.

Jay

On a bolted rappel anchor I connect to it with a safety sling. I set up my rappel and then weight my rappel system before removing my safety backup.

And how do you body-weight-test your attachment to the anchor with your "safety sling"? And if you can rely on visual inspection to determine that you are safely connected to a bolted rap anchor via your "safety sling," then why can't you rely on visual inspection to determine that you are safely connected to a sport anchor via your non-safety (?) slings.

And people have the gall to accuse me of ignoring their logic?

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 16, 2010, 10:07 PM)


chenzen


Jun 17, 2010, 12:55 AM
Post #147 of 152 (4805 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2003
Posts: 4

Re: [jt512] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

 
"This is a false analogy. We're not talking about touching the anchor and our connections to it; we're talking about weighting it. If you want to touch your connections to the anchor, like you touch your gun (this is my rifle...), as an aid to visual checking, then I would encourage you to do it. You're involving more senses, so it should be a more rigorous check. But, then it's still all you. You are still keeping the full responsibility of checking your attachment to the anchor on your own shoulders, where, in my opinion, it belongs."

The gun analogy is a valid one. Just as you are correct that the full responsibility of checking your attachment to the anchor (and building that anchor in trad) is on your shoulders alone, the same is true with the gun handler. They alone are responsible for the potential life and death consequences of their actions. Both situations have inherent risk. Which is why both practitioners usually employ safety systems which are REDUNDANT in key aspects (I can't believe it took 6 pages for that word to show up). Another catch phrase is "universal precaution". A gun handler should assume the gun is loaded until verified (you may argue that visual inspection is the verification, but we could just easily "test" to see if bullets fall out. Just as when you weight an anchor you are testing to see if you fall.) In safety systems where consequences are severe redundancy is often the best way to catch all mistakes, from the close calls to the tragic. Especially when you are engaged in an activity where you push yourself to physical and mental exhaustion. Why not use the most rigorous check?


"Think of how many situations there are when attaching to an anchor, there is no opportunity to check it with body weight (rapping into a crag)
, or when such a body weight check would be worthless (an anchor on a multipitch climb). In those cases, you have only yourself to rely on. "

This is why these situations are so dangerous! There is no opportunity for redundancy. You say there is no opportunity to test the system, but that is exactly what you do once you are using the system. You only know the anchor is bomber when you are hanging from it and lowering down. Everything else up to that point is speculation, experienced and educated speculation, but speculation none the less. Your visual assessment is only verified once the physics are engaged.


" Many climbers today probably believe that if they screw up, then they'll be saved by their belayer "

Anyone climbing while tied into rope who "screws up" will need to be saved by their belayer. Leader, follower, top roper, sport, trad anyone. Even aid soloists, their system is the belay.

"but this sort of thinking, when it comes to anchoring, is anathema to me."

Are you saying when you build an anchor you do not have the intention of saving someone from a fall, either while climbing, lowering or rappelling? You write about self reliance, but at some point the rope gets weighted.

"Even if you do test-weight your anchor, if you haven't checked your connection so thoroughly that you aren't completely convinced that it is bomber, and that the test is therefore completely superfluous, you're doing something very wrong."

The test may seem superfluous in action, but it is redundant in intent. Redundancy in safety systems inherently demands that the user honestly questions themselves, first and foremost. Sometimes seemingly to the point of personal insult, but safety should be the priority.
Of course in climbing redundancy is not always an option. The first piece/bolt off the ground is only one piece and if it fails the test of you falling there is no backup. On some routes if you blow the second clip there might not be much a belayer can do to keep you off the ground. Sometimes in the alpine environment single point anchors are agreed upon because fast and light is the approach taken for safety. Climbing is dangerous. I believe dangerous enough to warrant a redundant safety system "whenever possible", but I agree with those who modify this to "whenever reasonable" based on personal preference. But this has to be agreed upon with your partner. Jay, I have no doubt you will continue to do what you have always done, but I am left wondering why? Why not test your attachments and the anchor while you are still on belay? When redundancy is already in place. You wrote this puts more reliance on the belayer and the last bolt, and this is true, because the reliability if your attachment and anchor has yet to be verified. (if the reliability of your belayer is in question you may want to asses and test a new partner)
When I approach an anchor I physically test it with the only thing that matters in climbing, my weight (not my eyesight and not my opinion). And I do this before I remove myself from the safety system I created to responsibly get to that point. Tragedies such as the OP always remind me to question myself and the egotistical assumptions I have about why I do what I do, if only for the sake of safety. Because being a safe climber is the only way to be a long time climber and I hope to be doing this for a long, long time.

Be Safe, Have Fun
RIP Karen (I never knew you, but somehow I miss you)


Partner j_ung


Jun 17, 2010, 5:03 AM
Post #148 of 152 (4780 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 21, 2003
Posts: 18689

Re: [currupt4130] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

currupt4130 wrote:
But it really doesn't matter...

...circle.

You folks are all going to continue to disagree. I think you've all made your points well, but I doubt anybody will add anything substantially new to this wing of the discussion. What say we stop here before things get worse?


indy_md


Jun 29, 2010, 12:59 PM
Post #149 of 152 (4330 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 7, 2005
Posts: 27

Re: [jt512] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

jt512 wrote:
No, no one tests their connection to a sport anchor, ever. At most, you inspect the bolts, but you assume implicitly that the draws or slings you're connecting to the anchors are 100% reliable. {...}

And ad nauseum for 3 or 4 more pages.

Just as a datapoint, I don't sport climb all that often, but when I do, I always weight-test my slings. As do most everyone I know around here with whom I climb. So I would put forth that your statement, "no one tests their connection...ever", a rather broadsweeping statement, is incorrect. Given the responses of a number of other people, maybe it's just you (and your group of climbing buds?) who don't (weight) test your connection to the anchor?

I understand where your logic is in not weight testing. But I have to be on the other side of the fence, that sometimes your eyes can deceive you, don't trust them (exclusively).


jt512


Jun 29, 2010, 1:22 PM
Post #150 of 152 (4314 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21893

Re: [indy_md] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

indy_md wrote:
jt512 wrote:
No, no one tests their connection to a sport anchor, ever. At most, you inspect the bolts, but you assume implicitly that the draws or slings you're connecting to the anchors are 100% reliable. {...}

And ad nauseum for 3 or 4 more pages.

Just as a datapoint, I don't sport climb all that often, but when I do, I always weight-test my slings. As do most everyone I know around here with whom I climb. So I would put forth that your statement, "no one tests their connection...ever", a rather broadsweeping statement, is incorrect.

Evidently.

Jay

First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next page Last page  View All

Forums : Climbing Information : Accident and Incident Analysis

 


Search for (options)

Log In:

Username:
Password: Remember me:

Go Register
Go Lost Password?
$67.28 (10% off)
$71.96 (10% off)
$39.15 (10% off)
$13.46 (10% off)



Follow us on Twiter Become a Fan on Facebook