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dbogardus
Jun 15, 2010, 3:21 PM
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Relatively new to leading. I'm interested in building multipitch anchors out of the lead rope as it has many benefits.
Speaking with a AMGA guide, he told me that building anchors out of the rope is generally not practical. His reasoning was that, if there is only one leader, you would need to build another anchor after the second reaches the belay in order for the leader to continue on as the original anchor is built out of her (leader) end of the rope. Obviously, this will not apply to swinging leads.
So, is there a way to address this problem? In addition, I'm looking for more specific info on how to build anchors completely out of the rope so there is no need to carry a cord (I've spent a lot of time using the search feature and have only found a few old pics posted by RG.)
Dave
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cleethree
Jun 15, 2010, 3:44 PM
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What are the many benefits of building the anchor with the rope?
People regularly anchor-in with the rope vs using a sling or PAS so that they can save gear or not have to bring up extra equipment. Perhaps you are confusing this practice?
Climbing anchors are made with static rope/slings/cord by design. If placed over an edge you don't get sawing action during falls/hangs. Also, why would you want to put this excess wear on the rope vs a $20 cord?
I'd recommend carrying a cord or something similar. The cord comes in handy in many situations and you'll have times when you'll want every inch of your rope.
I'm curious why you don't want to carry a cord? If weight is an issue, go get a 20+ ft runner, mammut and WC make one - that's what I carry.
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welle
Jun 15, 2010, 3:53 PM
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John Long's Climbing Anchors book (at least the previous edition) has a lot of examples of anchors built with a rope. The main disadvantage besides the one you mentioned is the systems are very complicated - certainly not something to toy around as a beginner leader...
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bill413
Jun 15, 2010, 3:59 PM
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dbogardus wrote: Relatively new to leading. I'm interested in building multipitch anchors out of the lead rope as it has many benefits. Speaking with a AMGA guide, he told me that building anchors out of the rope is generally not practical. His reasoning was that, if there is only one leader, you would need to build another anchor after the second reaches the belay in order for the leader to continue on as the original anchor is built out of her (leader) end of the rope. Obviously, this will not apply to swinging leads. So, is there a way to address this problem? In addition, I'm looking for more specific info on how to build anchors completely out of the rope so there is no need to carry a cord (I've spent a lot of time using the search feature and have only found a few old pics posted by RG.) Dave
My general method is to build an anchor utilizing slings/"cordelette"/whatever, then tie in to that with the rope. The second ties into it the same way - thus, whoever leads out the next pitch just unties/unclips the rope from the master point & leaves the anchor rigging.
It certainly is possible to build entirely with rope (either "in-line" or making a closed loop somewhere) - I'll tend to use that with a tree anchor, because it's quick& easy for the second to do the same, but even there I'm as likely to use a cordellette loop around the tree, and tie the rope to that.
Those are my general methods - YMMV.
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dbogardus
Jun 15, 2010, 4:05 PM
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I'm aware that using a cord and/or sling is more common.
In spite of my beginner status and the complexity of these anchors, I would still like to better understand the advantages, disadvantages, and ways of creating these anchors from the community here.
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chadnsc
Jun 15, 2010, 4:07 PM
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I think building an anchor with the climbing rope can have its places:
1. Single pitch routes (or the last pitch)
2. When you need to sling large boulder as part of your anchor.
3. When you need to sling a tree that is more than say 10 feet away from the cliff edge.
Obviously these conditions may not be very common in your particular climbing area.
That being said I climb in Minnesota (land of the one pitch wonders) and even I only had one lead where I had to use my climbing rope to build an anchor. There was no place for pro and all I had was a 12 foot diamiter boulder that I could sling.
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welle
Jun 15, 2010, 4:08 PM
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bill413 wrote: I'll tend to use that with a tree anchor, because it's quick& easy for the second to do the same, but even there I'm as likely to use a cordellette loop around the tree, and tie the rope to that. Those are my general methods - YMMV.
+1 to what Bill said. I use a rope to extend my anchor to better see and hear my second, but even then, I'd wrap a sling or cordelette around the tree to a) protect the tree, b) protect my rope from wear and tree sap - slings and cordage are cheap, rope is not.
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qtm
Jun 15, 2010, 4:20 PM
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Never mind, don't do what I say, you'll die.
(This post was edited by qtm on Jun 15, 2010, 7:35 PM)
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bill413
Jun 15, 2010, 4:25 PM
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One method to anchor with just the rope & gear (this may be illustrated in the Long book):
Three pieces in a vertical arrangement. Tie the rope coming up from the second to the top piece, then tie the length of the rope that is closer to you to the second piece, with tension between them, then tie rope to the lowest piece, again with tension. Now, if you fall/get pulled down, you will primarily load the bottom piece, but with some loading on the upper two.
Obviously, this can be done with horizontals, or any place where you can get a fairly linear arrangement of your gear.
Another method is to clip the rope to the gear, take the length that is furthest from you, tie a figure 8 on a bight (or clove), and clip that to yourself. You've now formed a closed loop through all the gear. It's may be best to clove-hitch the rope to some of the pieces.
When I'm going around a tree, I tie two figure 8 on a bights with enough space to put them around the tree and clip together. This would allow me to untie, yet leave the anchor intact should I wish to do so.
If you're of the persuasion that likes to belay off the anchors, you can put a knot (8 or clove) in the rope coming to you from the anchor, or the rope on the other side of the anchor, and pop your belay biner into that. Just be aware of what the pull on the device will do to the forces acting on you & don't get pulled around in unexpected directions.
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a_guy_named_smith
Jun 15, 2010, 4:47 PM
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Reasons to use rope.
Its fast on long multi-pitch routes where you swap leads.
I like its simple nature- just gear, rope, and a couple of clove hitches.
The dynamic rope in the anchor absorbs force (not a bad thing)
Reasons against:
can be a clusterf--k if you don't know how to do it (with practice it is easy to manage)
It can be hard to escape the belay if there is an accident.
It blows when you are not swapping leads.
It uses rope you might want to use on the next pitch. (though you can certainly simul-climb)
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j_ung
Jun 15, 2010, 5:02 PM
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I build most of my multi-pitch anchors with the rope, whether swapping leads or not. I like the dynamic quality of the anchor and minimalist gear approach. Leading in blocks is actually pretty easy, but I doubt it would be as fast as the standard pre-distributed cordalette method for most people, since the second needs a whole new rope anchor under the leader's.
I don't use a rope anchor when:
There are more than two of us in the party.
Pitches are particularly long.
(This post was edited by j_ung on Jun 15, 2010, 5:06 PM)
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majid_sabet
Jun 15, 2010, 5:06 PM
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dbogardus wrote: Relatively new to leading. I'm interested in building multipitch anchors out of the lead rope as it has many benefits. Speaking with a AMGA guide, he told me that building anchors out of the rope is generally not practical. His reasoning was that, if there is only one leader, you would need to build another anchor after the second reaches the belay in order for the leader to continue on as the original anchor is built out of her (leader) end of the rope. Obviously, this will not apply to swinging leads. So, is there a way to address this problem? In addition, I'm looking for more specific info on how to build anchors completely out of the rope so there is no need to carry a cord (I've spent a lot of time using the search feature and have only found a few old pics posted by RG.) Dave
when you build an anchor off your lead rope, your rope is married to wall till taken off. if rock hits your head and your partner needs to go to plan B, taking that anchor rope may delay or cause other problems therefore, its a good idea to build an anchor with other materials than your rope
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Jun 15, 2010, 5:08 PM)
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dbogardus
Jun 15, 2010, 5:16 PM
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So you build another anchor as opposed to swapping ends like qtm suggests?
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rtwilli4
Jun 15, 2010, 5:27 PM
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welle wrote: John Long's Climbing Anchors book (at least the previous edition) has a lot of examples of anchors built with a rope. The main disadvantage besides the one you mentioned is the systems are very complicated - certainly not something to toy around as a beginner leader...
I don't see it being much more complicated that just using a cord.
I do it all the time. The post above mine is pretty dead on. If you are swapping leads and you know that you have enough rope for the next pitch (or you are ready to simul-climb) then it makes sense.
When I get to a good belay, I usually place a bomber piece, clove hitch it, and hang. I try to make this piece one of the "outside" pieces. Then I place gear for the rest of the anchor (1-3 pieces), pull up a big loop, and make another clove hitch to the other "outside" piece. Then I go off belay, clip the loop in the middle through the rest of the pro, equalize and tie an overhand.
I like it because I don't have to take anything off of my harness except for two or three pieces of pro. I am in direct to the anchor with the rope, and still have a few slings and a cord on my harness in case of an emergency.
Only problem with this is that sometimes my partner will want to use the highest piece of the anchor as his first clip, to prevent a factor two fall. Well, if I'm cloved to the highest piece, he clips it, falls on it, it blows, then we are BOTH factor two falling on to an anchor with one less piece than it originally had. Probably death. SO, make sure that he is not clipping to the same piece you're hanging on unless you are 200% sure it's good.
If I think I'll need to move around a lot at the belay or if the anchor is going to be rubbing on edges a lot then I use a static cord. If I ever have to sling a tree then I use a static cord.
I always carry a bit of webbing and a long length of cord. Using the rope doesn't mean you can carry less gear... it just means you have more gear left over after you've built the anchor.
If it's a clean gear anchor with no rubbing, swapping leads, shorter pitches, easy climb, etc... I'm using the rope.
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ladyscarlett
Jun 15, 2010, 5:39 PM
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Hmmm
Interesting responses...
Anchor building with the rope was standard practice 'back in the day' or so I heard, and even though I always carry some kind of cordelette, I think it's a valuable thing to know.
For example, if you're on a multipitch and you forget to grab the anchor material from your follower(s). Or you forget it on the ground, or you needed to use it for something else entirely, or one of the handful of situations that are not ideal in any way and you find yourself at the anchor with the only thing to use as rigging is your rope.
This seems like it might not happen, which isn't often. But I've seen it happen twice on a long multi pitch , and I know my buddies were glad they had some idea of how to build an anchor using the rope. One of them also likes the idea of using the rope as anchor when swinging leads because he finds it 'elegant.' But I don't know about that one. It sure seems to sound cool though, in that Old Skool kind of way.
It will leave you with less rope to lead with, and it may be a little more complicated, but I think it's worth knowing how. Personally, I've tried to understand the rigging, but haven't been able to get it straight in my brain to actually use it on the wall. Thus, I'm still practicing by the campfire still...
good luck!
ls
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majid_sabet
Jun 15, 2010, 5:48 PM
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rtwilli4 wrote: welle wrote: John Long's Climbing Anchors book (at least the previous edition) has a lot of examples of anchors built with a rope. The main disadvantage besides the one you mentioned is the systems are very complicated - certainly not something to toy around as a beginner leader... I don't see it being much more complicated that just using a cord. I do it all the time. The post above mine is pretty dead on. If you are swapping leads and you know that you have enough rope for the next pitch (or you are ready to simul-climb) then it makes sense. When I get to a good belay, I usually place a bomber piece, clove hitch it, and hang. I try to make this piece one of the "outside" pieces. Then I place gear for the rest of the anchor (1-3 pieces), pull up a big loop, and make another clove hitch to the other "outside" piece. Then I go off belay, clip the loop in the middle through the rest of the pro, equalize and tie an overhand. I like it because I don't have to take anything off of my harness except for two or three pieces of pro. I am in direct to the anchor with the rope, and still have a few slings and a cord on my harness in case of an emergency. Only problem with this is that sometimes my partner will want to use the highest piece of the anchor as his first clip, to prevent a factor two fall. Well, if I'm cloved to the highest piece, he clips it, falls on it, it blows, then we are BOTH factor two falling on to an anchor with one less piece than it originally had. Probably death. SO, make sure that he is not clipping to the same piece you're hanging on unless you are 200% sure it's good. If I think I'll need to move around a lot at the belay or if the anchor is going to be rubbing on edges a lot then I use a static cord. If I ever have to sling a tree then I use a static cord. I always carry a bit of webbing and a long length of cord. Using the rope doesn't mean you can carry less gear... it just means you have more gear left over after you've built the anchor. If it's a clean gear anchor with no rubbing, swapping leads, shorter pitches, easy climb, etc... I'm using the rope.
well, let's say you are belaying second on 2ed pitch and he is 30 feet up and he gets bang in the head and he is out on your belay.
honestly, how long and how complicated that would be escape belay, rap or lower partner vs, disconnect from the main independent non-lead rope anchor , rap or lower ?
come on, you can't tell me that you are not going to take stuff off the harness
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rtwilli4
Jun 15, 2010, 5:49 PM
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ladyscarlett wrote: Hmmm Interesting responses... Anchor building with the rope was standard practice 'back in the day' or so I heard, and even though I always carry some kind of cordelette, I think it's a valuable thing to know. For example, if you're on a multipitch and you forget to grab the anchor material from your follower(s). Or you forget it on the ground, or you needed to use it for something else entirely, or one of the handful of situations that are not ideal in any way and you find yourself at the anchor with the only thing to use as rigging is your rope. This seems like it might not happen, which isn't often. But I've seen it happen twice on a long multi pitch , and I know my buddies were glad they had some idea of how to build an anchor using the rope. One of them also likes the idea of using the rope as anchor when swinging leads because he finds it 'elegant.' But I don't know about that one. It sure seems to sound cool though, in that Old Skool kind of way. It will leave you with less rope to lead with, and it may be a little more complicated, but I think it's worth knowing how. Personally, I've tried to understand the rigging, but haven't been able to get it straight in my brain to actually use it on the wall. Thus, I'm still practicing by the campfire still... good luck! ls
You're so cute...
Building with the rope is the same as with a loop of cord. just imagine that instead of the loop, you had one long piece of cord.
You have placed three pieces:
Clove hitches on the left most piece (#1), and the right most piece (#3). Clip the cord through the middle piece (#2). From here, everything is the same. Pull a loop down between #1 and #2, and another loop between #2 and #3. Equalize the loops, tie and overhand knot, and there is your anchor.
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majid_sabet
Jun 15, 2010, 5:51 PM
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ladyscarlett wrote: Hmmm Interesting responses... Anchor building with the rope was standard practice 'back in the day' or so I heard, and even though I always carry some kind of cordelette, I think it's a valuable thing to know. For example, if you're on a multipitch and you forget to grab the anchor material from your follower(s). Or you forget it on the ground, or you needed to use it for something else entirely, or one of the handful of situations that are not ideal in any way and you find yourself at the anchor with the only thing to use as rigging is your rope. This seems like it might not happen, which isn't often. But I've seen it happen twice on a long multi pitch , and I know my buddies were glad they had some idea of how to build an anchor using the rope. One of them also likes the idea of using the rope as anchor when swinging leads because he finds it 'elegant.' But I don't know about that one. It sure seems to sound cool though, in that Old Skool kind of way. It will leave you with less rope to lead with, and it may be a little more complicated, but I think it's worth knowing how. Personally, I've tried to understand the rigging, but haven't been able to get it straight in my brain to actually use it on the wall. Thus, I'm still practicing by the campfire still... good luck! ls
This is not a trip to Disney Land . you do not go on the multi-pitch wall with your sport gear. there are set of things that goes on the wall and those are mandatory.
people have died, frozen to death on the wall for not having anchor material.
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Jun 15, 2010, 5:52 PM)
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dugl33
Jun 15, 2010, 6:19 PM
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bill413 wrote: One method to anchor with just the rope & gear (this may be illustrated in the Long book): Three pieces in a vertical arrangement. Tie the rope coming up from the second to the top piece, then tie the length of the rope that is closer to you to the second piece, with tension between them, then tie rope to the lowest piece, again with tension. Now, if you fall/get pulled down, you will primarily load the bottom piece, but with some loading on the upper two. Obviously, this can be done with horizontals, or any place where you can get a fairly linear arrangement of your gear. Another method is to clip the rope to the gear, take the length that is furthest from you, tie a figure 8 on a bight (or clove), and clip that to yourself. You've now formed a closed loop through all the gear. It's may be best to clove-hitch the rope to some of the pieces. When I'm going around a tree, I tie two figure 8 on a bights with enough space to put them around the tree and clip together. This would allow me to untie, yet leave the anchor intact should I wish to do so. If you're of the persuasion that likes to belay off the anchors, you can put a knot (8 or clove) in the rope coming to you from the anchor, or the rope on the other side of the anchor, and pop your belay biner into that. Just be aware of what the pull on the device will do to the forces acting on you & don't get pulled around in unexpected directions.
What's this exactly, the sequential-gear-failure method of anchoring? Why not just tie your figure eight and cloves straight up the line, and adjust the cloves to statically equalize the load?
For horizontals go from your tie-in to piece "A", tie a clove, slack over sideways to "B", tie a clove, back to you to a locker, overhand, now up to "C", another clove. Adjust cloves to statically equalize. Done.
As for the OP, much of this is in the realm of personal preference. I find if each climber has their own cordallette things go pretty efficiently. Yes more gear but once you get all that crap spread out over the cliff its not very onerous.
If you need to swap out a rope anchor, just add new biners to each piece and have the second connect via their side of the rope to this. Rarely any point to rebuild the anchor from scratch unless you just gotta have certain pieces for the next pitch.
Even if rarely used, any multipitch climber should know how to belay from a munter, build a carabiner brake to rap with, and know how to anchor with the rope, cause sooner or later shit happens.
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rgold
Jun 15, 2010, 6:42 PM
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I posted these pictures six years ago. I guess that makes them newsworthy again?
The standard four-biner three-piece anchor. The slack rope tied to provide a redirection point is just an extra option. I mention a butterfly knot for the "power point" but an overhand knot is fine too.
The six-biner three-piece anchor for situations in which the anchor pieces are inaccessible from the belay stance.
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kachoong
Jun 15, 2010, 7:03 PM
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j_ung wrote: dbogardus wrote: So you build another anchor as opposed to swapping ends like qtm suggests? Yes. I think swapping ends of the rope is a horrible idea, which will probably take even longer anyway. I don't place all new pieces of gear. If I'm the second, I just clip my end of the rope to the same pieces, under the leader's anchor.
This is what I'm used to doing if tying in with the rope... it doesn't take long to get yourself into the same anchor pieces... just use your own biners.
It's interesting to know that many climbers these days don't learn anchor building by *first* using the rope and then, soon after, progressing to using the abundant other sling and 'lette methods depending on the diverse situations they experience for themselves. I'm sure there's nothing wrong with it, I just can't imagine it since I learned by using the rope first (when I began I didn't even know what a cordelette was, a daisy was exclusively for aid - and should still be - and PAS didn't exist - which really wasn't all that long ago). There's no one method that's better than all for all situations; each has its place... it's best to know as many as you can.
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qtm
Jun 15, 2010, 7:17 PM
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LoL... ok, nevermind.
(This post was edited by qtm on Jun 15, 2010, 7:34 PM)
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majid_sabet
Jun 15, 2010, 8:02 PM
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rgold wrote: I posted these pictures six years ago. I guess that makes them newsworthy again? The standard four-biner three-piece anchor. The slack rope tied to provide a redirection point is just an extra option. I mention a butterfly knot for the "power point" but an overhand knot is fine too. [img]http://www.rockclimbing.com/images/photos/assets/1/176681-largest_34116.jpg[/img] The six-biner three-piece anchor for situations in which the anchor pieces are inaccessible from the belay stance. [img]http://www.rockclimbing.com/images/photos/assets/1/176671-largest_34117.jpg[/img]
6 biner plus 15 + feet rope in service with 8 separate knot . you are lucky you haven't killed yourself since 1950 but do not push it
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