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pacman529


Jun 16, 2010, 9:36 PM
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Vibram Fivefingers, good for climbing?
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I am seriously considering getting myself a pair of Vibram Fivefingers, and one of the things I would like to do with them is rock climb, both indoors and out. anybody have any experience with them very much? I mean, i'm sure they are not going to be as good as a climbing shoe for like REALLY tiny toe chips and the like, but is it possible to comfortably climb in them to a good degree? and i'm talking about more than just bouldering; i prefer climbing routes to bouldering in general.

if you had personal experience with them, could you tell me what model you used?

just about any information concerning rock climbing in vibram fivefingers would be fantastic, like their strengths and weaknesses.


(This post was edited by pacman529 on Jun 18, 2010, 11:33 AM)


jt512


Jun 16, 2010, 10:18 PM
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Re: [pacman529] Vibram Fivefingers, good for climbing? [In reply to]
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pacman529 wrote:
I am seriously considering getting myself a pair of Vibram Fivefingers, and one of the things I would like to do with them is rock climb, both indoors and out. anybody have any experience with them very much? I mean, i'm sure they are not going to be as good as a climbing shoe for like REALLY tiny toe chips and the like, but is it possible to comfortably climb in them to a good degree? and i'm talking about more than just bouldering; i prefer climbing routes to bouldering in general.

if you had personal experience with them, could you tell me what model you used?

just about any information concerning rock climbing in vibram fivefingers would be fantastic, like their strengths and weaknesses.

T-weke


Lazlo


Jun 16, 2010, 10:32 PM
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Re: [pacman529] Vibram Fivefingers, good for climbing? [In reply to]
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pacman529 wrote:
I am seriously considering getting myself a pair of Vibram Fivefingers, and one of the things I would like to do with them is rock climb, both indoors and out. anybody have any experience with them very much? I mean, i'm sure they are not going to be as good as a climbing shoe for like REALLY tiny toe chips and the like, but is it possible to comfortably climb in them to a good degree? and i'm talking about more than just bouldering; i prefer climbing routes to bouldering in general.

if you had personal experience with them, could you tell me what model you used?

just about any information concerning rock climbing in vibram fivefingers would be fantastic, like their strengths and weaknesses.

They would probably work well for approach and easy slab. I very much doubt that they would work well for any other climbing.


Claypool


Jun 17, 2010, 12:27 AM
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Re: [pacman529] Vibram Fivefingers, good for climbing? [In reply to]
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There is another thread about these shoes on the first page of this section.

The general consensus is that they are not good climbing shoes.

Edit due to link fail.


(This post was edited by Claypool on Jun 17, 2010, 12:29 AM)


pacman529


Jun 17, 2010, 7:16 AM
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Re: [Claypool] Vibram Fivefingers, good for climbing? [In reply to]
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ok, I understand there is no doubt that rock shoes are millions times better than them for climbing, but is there a possibility that climbing in them occasionally could help strengthen your feet and legs for when you do use regular climbing shoes?

also, has anyone tried the newer KSO treks or Bikilas? they seem to be made with thicker soles which might make them better than other flavors of fingers, even if they still don't touch regular climbing shoes.


(This post was edited by pacman529 on Jun 17, 2010, 7:20 AM)


gmggg


Jun 17, 2010, 7:31 AM
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Re: [pacman529] Vibram Fivefingers, good for climbing? [In reply to]
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Vibram five fingers are great for climbing!

Climbing out of bed to get a 2 liter of soda and cheetos and watch a baseball game on TV. Climbing into the car to go buy a 50 degree sleeping bag from REI so that your garage can be decorated with the unused gear you collect to pursue your "passions". And lastly, climbing back into bed and under the covers to hide your shame from the world.


kachoong


Jun 17, 2010, 7:34 AM
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Re: [pacman529] Vibram Fivefingers, good for climbing? [In reply to]
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The only situation where the fivefingers could be of any use for climbing would be DWS... but climbing shoes would still be better even in that situation... the fivefingers would be more comfortable for using over a longer time and for in the water.


gmggg


Jun 17, 2010, 7:36 AM
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Re: [kachoong] Vibram Fivefingers, good for climbing? [In reply to]
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kachoong wrote:
The only situation where the fivefingers could be of any use for climbing would be DWS... but climbing shoes would still be better even in that situation... the fivefingers would be more comfortable for using over a longer time and for in the water.

Or you could get climbing "sandals"




patto


Jun 17, 2010, 7:40 AM
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pacman529 wrote:
ok, I understand there is no doubt that rock shoes are millions times better than them for climbing, but is there a possibility that climbing in them occasionally could help strengthen your feet and legs for when you do use regular climbing shoes?

also, has anyone tried the newer KSO treks or Bikilas? they seem to be made with thicker soles which might make them better than other flavors of fingers, even if they still don't touch regular climbing shoes.

No dude. They are not useful for climbing. Running in them will strengthen your feet and calves. This could no doubt help your climbing.

Have you ever tried climbing barefeet? Its like that. Too much pressure on you big toe joint for anything but large foot holds.

They are excellent at rock scrambling though! Light and allows precision footwork. Great for approach shoes.


kachoong


Jun 17, 2010, 7:45 AM
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Re: [gmggg] Vibram Fivefingers, good for climbing? [In reply to]
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gmggg wrote:
kachoong wrote:
The only situation where the fivefingers could be of any use for climbing would be DWS... but climbing shoes would still be better even in that situation... the fivefingers would be more comfortable for using over a longer time and for in the water.

Or you could get climbing "sandals"


Sweet! Or that!

But yeah, climbing shoes were designed for a reason; for climbing in... not sure if there's a reason behind fivefingers but I'm sure it's not to sell to climbers.


acorneau


Jun 17, 2010, 1:04 PM
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Re: [gmggg] Vibram Fivefingers, good for climbing? [In reply to]
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gmggg wrote:
[
Or you could get climbing "sandals"



Those would give you some sweet tan lines. Match them up with your Tevas and you'll have some Art Deco feet!


pacman529


Jun 18, 2010, 9:40 AM
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Re: [patto] Vibram Fivefingers, good for climbing? [In reply to]
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patto wrote:
They are excellent at rock scrambling though! Light and allows precision footwork. Great for approach shoes.
ok, i know i am going to take some flak for asking this... but what are approach shoes?


jt512


Jun 18, 2010, 9:42 AM
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Re: [pacman529] Vibram Fivefingers, good for climbing? [In reply to]
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pacman529 wrote:
patto wrote:
They are excellent at rock scrambling though! Light and allows precision footwork. Great for approach shoes.
ok, i know i am going to take some flak for asking this... but what are approach shoes?


They're shoes you wear on the hike to the cliff. Not to be confused with deproach shoes, which are the ones you wear on the hike back.

Jay


wmfork


Jun 18, 2010, 10:11 AM
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patto wrote:
Have you ever tried climbing barefeet? Its like that. Too much pressure on you big toe joint for anything but large foot holds.
Sounds like they are excellent if you have strong toes. The problems I've had with climbing barefeet are 1) feet do sweat, and it's hard to chalk them up mid-route, 2) some edges feel too sharp to put a lot of weight on. But man I can grab high foot holds that no shoes ever can.

I may just have to try a pair and report back.


pacman529


Jun 18, 2010, 10:12 AM
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jt512 wrote:
pacman529 wrote:
patto wrote:
They are excellent at rock scrambling though! Light and allows precision footwork. Great for approach shoes.
ok, i know i am going to take some flak for asking this... but what are approach shoes?


They're shoes you wear on the hike to the cliff. Not to be confused with deproach shoes, which are the ones you wear on the hike back.

Jay
why would you have separate shoes for going up and coming back? again i apologize for my ignorance; since I started climbing almost a year ago i have mostly only been able to do indoor climbing, and other than rock climbing and sailing, i'm usually not much of an outdoorsy type (although i think that is begining to change at least a little bit)


pat_o_g


Jun 18, 2010, 10:34 AM
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Re: [pacman529] Vibram Fivefingers, good for climbing? [In reply to]
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They would be absolutely miserable for real climbing. I have a pair, and they're great if you're into the barefoot running thing, but as an actual climbing shoe, they would suck. Perhaps some scrambling, but they're going to slip if you try to edge or put much lateral pressure on them.


jt512


Jun 18, 2010, 10:37 AM
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pacman529 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
pacman529 wrote:
patto wrote:
They are excellent at rock scrambling though! Light and allows precision footwork. Great for approach shoes.
ok, i know i am going to take some flak for asking this... but what are approach shoes?


They're shoes you wear on the hike to the cliff. Not to be confused with deproach shoes, which are the ones you wear on the hike back.

Jay
why would you have separate shoes for going up and coming back? again i apologize for my ignorance; since I started climbing almost a year ago i have mostly only been able to do indoor climbing, and other than rock climbing and sailing, i'm usually not much of an outdoorsy type (although i think that is begining to change at least a little bit)

It doesn't matter much if the approach is mostly on level ground, but if it is significantly up- or down-hill, you'll often want different shoes for the approach and the deproach.

Jay


pacman529


Jun 18, 2010, 10:44 AM
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jt512 wrote:
pacman529 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
pacman529 wrote:
patto wrote:
They are excellent at rock scrambling though! Light and allows precision footwork. Great for approach shoes.
ok, i know i am going to take some flak for asking this... but what are approach shoes?


They're shoes you wear on the hike to the cliff. Not to be confused with deproach shoes, which are the ones you wear on the hike back.

Jay
why would you have separate shoes for going up and coming back? again i apologize for my ignorance; since I started climbing almost a year ago i have mostly only been able to do indoor climbing, and other than rock climbing and sailing, i'm usually not much of an outdoorsy type (although i think that is begining to change at least a little bit)

It doesn't matter much if the approach is mostly on level ground, but if it is significantly up- or down-hill, you'll often want different shoes for the approach and the deproach.

Jay

well I assumed as much but why is that?


jt512


Jun 18, 2010, 11:01 AM
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pacman529 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
pacman529 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
pacman529 wrote:
patto wrote:
They are excellent at rock scrambling though! Light and allows precision footwork. Great for approach shoes.
ok, i know i am going to take some flak for asking this... but what are approach shoes?


They're shoes you wear on the hike to the cliff. Not to be confused with deproach shoes, which are the ones you wear on the hike back.

Jay
why would you have separate shoes for going up and coming back? again i apologize for my ignorance; since I started climbing almost a year ago i have mostly only been able to do indoor climbing, and other than rock climbing and sailing, i'm usually not much of an outdoorsy type (although i think that is begining to change at least a little bit)

It doesn't matter much if the approach is mostly on level ground, but if it is significantly up- or down-hill, you'll often want different shoes for the approach and the deproach.

Jay

well I assumed as much but why is that?

Well, fit for one thing. If you're doing a lot of uphill slab on the approach, you can benefit from wearing a tighter shoe, since the climbing is semi-technical. But going downhill, your toes will be crushed into the toe box of the shoe, which is painful, and you can even lose toenails. So, you wear a looser fitting shoe for the downhill.

Jay


kachoong


Jun 18, 2010, 11:17 AM
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jt512 wrote:
pacman529 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
pacman529 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
pacman529 wrote:
patto wrote:
They are excellent at rock scrambling though! Light and allows precision footwork. Great for approach shoes.
ok, i know i am going to take some flak for asking this... but what are approach shoes?


They're shoes you wear on the hike to the cliff. Not to be confused with deproach shoes, which are the ones you wear on the hike back.

Jay
why would you have separate shoes for going up and coming back? again i apologize for my ignorance; since I started climbing almost a year ago i have mostly only been able to do indoor climbing, and other than rock climbing and sailing, i'm usually not much of an outdoorsy type (although i think that is begining to change at least a little bit)

It doesn't matter much if the approach is mostly on level ground, but if it is significantly up- or down-hill, you'll often want different shoes for the approach and the deproach.

Jay

well I assumed as much but why is that?

Well, fit for one thing. If you're doing a lot of uphill slab on the approach, you can benefit from wearing a tighter shoe, since the climbing is semi-technical. But going downhill, your toes will be crushed into the toe box of the shoe, which is painful, and you can even lose toenails. So, you wear a looser fitting shoe for the downhill.

Jay

^^Good advice!

Also, I like to keep my deproach shoes in with my rappelling rope and an extra figure-8 so it's all together for the retreat back to the car.


redlude97


Jun 18, 2010, 11:19 AM
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What is your opinion on belay shoes? I prefer a slipper but my partner insists on laceups


jt512


Jun 18, 2010, 11:24 AM
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redlude97 wrote:
What is your opinion on belay shoes? I prefer a slipper but my partner insists on laceups

I just stick with either the approach or the deproach shoes. There's only so many shoes I can carry at once!

Jay


bill413


Jun 18, 2010, 12:02 PM
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Another reason for different approach & deproach shoes is when you have very tight climbing shoes. If I'm climbing in my tight ones, my feet are sorer at the end of the day and I need more cushioning during the hike out.


styndall


Jun 18, 2010, 12:51 PM
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jt512 wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
What is your opinion on belay shoes? I prefer a slipper but my partner insists on laceups

I just stick with either the approach or the deproach shoes. There's only so many shoes I can carry at once!

Jay

I bought a slightly larger-than-average pack so I could keep a pair of plain old proach shoes for when I'm lost and don't know whether I'm coming or going.

It happens a lot Unsure


patto


Jun 18, 2010, 4:54 PM
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Just in case you wanted a serious answer to your question.

pacman529 wrote:
ok, i know i am going to take some flak for asking this... but what are approach shoes?
Approach shoes are a fancy name for shoes you wear to and from the cliff. One could argue they are merely a con so 5-10 and other companies can make more money out of climbers. Most shoes work but ones that are grippier may be better than the stilettos you wore the previous night.

pacman529 wrote:
why would you have separate shoes for going up and coming back?
You don't. Jay was being sarcastic and you fell for it.
Wink


crjanow


Jun 18, 2010, 5:12 PM
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i have approach shoes,climbing shoes,deproach shoes,repeling shoes,shoes for putting up my rope,and shoes for when i'm not doing anything while at the crag. then of course i use different shoes for driving to and from the crag unless i'm riding with a friend then i go barefoot for that so i dont have to carry any more shoes.Wink


RockGroundMountain


Jun 18, 2010, 5:57 PM
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Hey! When i decided to start rock climbing, i started buying all my gear and when i had already bought everything (except for the shoes) i ran out of money! hahaha, yeah my bad you guys! So i was desperate, how the hell was i supposed to rock climb with sneakers? Everyone would probably make fun of me, but then i remembered my old pair of Vibram Fivefingers! I was like "Yeah, this shoes must be awesome for rock climbing"! So, i started rock climbing with them, and i did it for four months straight!

I thought they were great shoes! My toes would fit in holes perfectly, falls weren't painful at all, and i didnt have to endure the uncomfortable feeling of having my toes squeezed! The only problem i faced was that they slipped, a LOT! They slipped and slipped and slipped! The sole is clearly not made for rock climbing. And i would get tired very quickly.

So one day i went to a store and got some real climbing shoes! I got the cheapest ones (25$) and i went rock climbing. I couldn't believe how easy everything was, i could stand perfectly on the tiniest ledges and they attached to the rock like if they were made out of glue! I ever got tired! And compared to the price of the fivefingers (70$), rock climbing shoes were way better for rock climbing!

So in conclusion, buy rock climbing shoes! Im not saying the fivefingers are bad shoes, they are very attractive and make people stare at your feet hahaha, but for rock climbing, buy regular rock climbing shoes, they are way better!

Hope this helped, good luck!


edge


Jun 18, 2010, 7:02 PM
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I seriously don't get the fascination with these shoes. Seriously.

Toe socks had a 3 month moment of appreciation in the early 80's (?) and I would rather wear those than these monstrosities of fashion.

So, they help build muscle when you run? Maybe run barefoot. I hear people have been doing that for a couple decades, at least.

People have been running for decades under the close scrutiny of Nike/Adidas/Whoever. Do you seriously think that they missed the advantages (not!) of offering a shoe with five toes in independent sleeves of rubber that may make other people ask questions prior to laugh and pointing?

Again, I just don't get it, and even if I did, I have more self-pride than to allow myself that indiscretion.


patto


Jun 18, 2010, 7:26 PM
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edge wrote:
People have been running for decades under the close scrutiny of Nike/Adidas/Whoever. Do you seriously think that they missed the advantages (not!) of offering a shoe with five toes in independent sleeves of rubber that may make other people ask questions prior to laugh and pointing?

People have been running for hundreds of millenium. If flexible feet with independent articulated toes weren't useful for our running gait then we would have evolved them away.

VFF are designed to provide a little more protection while allowing our feet to function as close to the way nature designed them to. They achieve their purpose VERY well. I have run, hiked and rock scrambled in these and have found them excellent.

Shoes don't allow our feet to function in quite the same way as nature intended. However for many things in life this is a happy trade off for protection, warmth and support.


jt512


Jun 18, 2010, 7:30 PM
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patto wrote:
edge wrote:
People have been running for decades under the close scrutiny of Nike/Adidas/Whoever. Do you seriously think that they missed the advantages (not!) of offering a shoe with five toes in independent sleeves of rubber that may make other people ask questions prior to laugh and pointing?

People have been running for hundreds of millenium. If flexible feet with independent articulated toes weren't useful for our running gait then we would have evolved them away.

VFF are designed to provide a little more protection while allowing our feet to function as close to the way nature designed them to. They achieve their purpose VERY well. I have run, hiked and rock scrambled in these and have found them excellent.

Shoes don't allow our feet to function in quite the same way as nature intended. However for many things in life this is a happy trade off for protection, warmth and support.

Nonetheless, they are grotesque.

Jay


patto


Jun 18, 2010, 7:38 PM
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jt512 wrote:
Nonetheless, they are grotesque.

Jay

Lol now you are just trolling! Laugh

RockGroundMountain wrote:
they are very attractive and make people stare at your feet hahaha,

You two should get together.


jt512


Jun 18, 2010, 7:41 PM
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Re: [patto] Vibram Fivefingers, good for climbing? [In reply to]
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patto wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Nonetheless, they are grotesque.

Jay

Lol now you are just trolling! Laugh

I wish I were. The fact is I find them inexplicably disturbing.

Jay


bill413


Jun 18, 2010, 9:21 PM
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Re: [crjanow] Vibram Fivefingers, good for climbing? [In reply to]
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crjanow wrote:
i have approach shoes,climbing shoes,deproach shoes,repeling shoes,shoes for putting up my rope,and shoes for when i'm not doing anything while at the crag. then of course i use different shoes for driving to and from the crag unless i'm riding with a friend then i go barefoot for that so i dont have to carry any more shoes.Wink

Gear whore.


pacman529


Jun 18, 2010, 10:33 PM
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Re: [patto] Vibram Fivefingers, good for climbing? [In reply to]
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patto wrote:
Just in case you wanted a serious answer to your question.

pacman529 wrote:
ok, i know i am going to take some flak for asking this... but what are approach shoes?
Approach shoes are a fancy name for shoes you wear to and from the cliff. One could argue they are merely a con so 5-10 and other companies can make more money out of climbers. Most shoes work but ones that are grippier may be better than the stilettos you wore the previous night.

pacman529 wrote:
why would you have separate shoes for going up and coming back?
You don't. Jay was being sarcastic and you fell for it.
Wink

lol thanks tho i will admit i probably walked right into that one.


crjanow


Jun 19, 2010, 2:06 PM
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Re: [bill413] Vibram Fivefingers, good for climbing? [In reply to]
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bill413 wrote:
crjanow wrote:
i have approach shoes,climbing shoes,deproach shoes,repeling shoes,shoes for putting up my rope,and shoes for when i'm not doing anything while at the crag. then of course i use different shoes for driving to and from the crag unless i'm riding with a friend then i go barefoot for that so i dont have to carry any more shoes.Wink

Gear whore.
i just bought some belaying shoes today. looks like i will have to get a bigger crag bag now.


styndall


Jun 19, 2010, 2:51 PM
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Re: [jt512] Vibram Fivefingers, good for climbing? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
patto wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Nonetheless, they are grotesque.

Jay

Lol now you are just trolling! Laugh

I wish I were. The fact is I find them inexplicably disturbing.

Jay

I think they're hideous, too, but they're the most comfortable shoes I've ever run trails in by far. I'll put up with the looks for that.


Partner angry


Jun 19, 2010, 5:11 PM
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Re: [jt512] Vibram Fivefingers, good for climbing? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
patto wrote:
edge wrote:
People have been running for decades under the close scrutiny of Nike/Adidas/Whoever. Do you seriously think that they missed the advantages (not!) of offering a shoe with five toes in independent sleeves of rubber that may make other people ask questions prior to laugh and pointing?

People have been running for hundreds of millenium. If flexible feet with independent articulated toes weren't useful for our running gait then we would have evolved them away.

VFF are designed to provide a little more protection while allowing our feet to function as close to the way nature designed them to. They achieve their purpose VERY well. I have run, hiked and rock scrambled in these and have found them excellent.

Shoes don't allow our feet to function in quite the same way as nature intended. However for many things in life this is a happy trade off for protection, warmth and support.

Nonetheless, they are grotesque.

Jay

Haurachas are range from free to $20 depending on the parts you find laying around your house and they completely allow barefoot running technique. They're also fun to make and wear.

VFF's are consumerism.


gmggg


Jun 21, 2010, 9:30 AM
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Re: [angry] Vibram Fivefingers, good for climbing? [In reply to]
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angry wrote:
VFF's are consumerism.




sp00ki


Jun 24, 2010, 3:02 PM
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Re: [angry] Vibram Fivefingers, good for climbing? [In reply to]
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The best part about it is, the people who buy them to "run naturally" have never run more than three miles in their life and end up with injuries from doing little more than walking around.

If you want your coddled, soft, weak modern feet to get strong, start by clocking >40 miles a week for six months.
Then switch to racing flats.
Once you've gotten used to the pain at your heel, arch and top of foot, switch to Vibrams.
At that point, you'll begin to understand the difference between our ancestors running with bare feet after spending their entire lives walking around paths and up hills and in grass and on rock, and modern man running with bare feet on ultra hard pavement after spending 20+ years living on a sofa and driving anywhere past 1/2 a mile's walk.


(This post was edited by sp00ki on Jun 24, 2010, 3:04 PM)


rtwilli4


Jun 25, 2010, 3:46 AM
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Re: [patto] Vibram Fivefingers, good for climbing? [In reply to]
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patto wrote:
edge wrote:
People have been running for decades under the close scrutiny of Nike/Adidas/Whoever. Do you seriously think that they missed the advantages (not!) of offering a shoe with five toes in independent sleeves of rubber that may make other people ask questions prior to laugh and pointing?

People have been running for hundreds of millenium. If flexible feet with independent articulated toes weren't useful for our running gait then we would have evolved them away.

VFF are designed to provide a little more protection while allowing our feet to function as close to the way nature designed them to. They achieve their purpose VERY well. I have run, hiked and rock scrambled in these and have found them excellent.

Shoes don't allow our feet to function in quite the same way as nature intended. However for many things in life this is a happy trade off for protection, warmth and support.

If you want your feet to be able to function naturally then walk around barefoot. I'm willing to bet that there isn't a single thing you do in your gay little toe condoms that I couldn't do better barefoot.

I'm also willing to bet that you weren't really running, but just jogging around the neighborhood for a few miles.

I spend entire climbing days without shoes, from the approach, to the climbing, to bush whacking a new trail through the jungle. I've never once thought "ooh it would be great if someone thought up a way for me to feel barefoot while actually wearing shoes."

If you need shoes, where them. If not, don't. All the little reasons people say these things are good for are just excuses to go and buy more shit.


patto


Jun 25, 2010, 9:26 AM
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Re: [rtwilli4] Vibram Fivefingers, good for climbing? [In reply to]
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sp00ki wrote:
The best part about it is, the people who buy them to "run naturally" have never run more than three miles in their life and end up with injuries from doing little more than walking around.
That is almost me. I never ended up with injuries. Though I did have sore calves!

sp00ki wrote:
If you want your coddled, soft, weak modern feet to get strong, start by clocking >40 miles a week for six months.
Then switch to racing flats.
Once you've gotten used to the pain at your heel, arch and top of foot, switch to Vibrams.
I don't get pain in my foot, heel or arch in my VFF. Furthermore if you are getting pain in your heel you are doing something wrong, there are no muscles in your heel! You shouldn't be impacting your heel.

sp00ki wrote:
At that point, you'll begin to understand the difference between our ancestors running with bare feet after spending their entire lives walking around paths and up hills and in grass and on rock, and modern man running with bare feet on ultra hard pavement after spending 20+ years living on a sofa and driving anywhere past 1/2 a mile's walk.
How many times does it need to be said. 'Ultra hard pavement' is not a concern. We don't rely on the ground to absord the impact so it is largely irrelevent!


rtwilli4 wrote:
If you want your feet to be able to function naturally then walk around barefoot. I'm willing to bet that there isn't a single thing you do in your gay little toe condoms that I couldn't do better barefoot.
Its not a competition dude.

rtwilli4 wrote:
I'm also willing to bet that you weren't really running, but just jogging around the neighborhood for a few miles.
Jogging shit me to tears. I have never felt comfortable in a jogging pace, particularly in shoes. I can happyily run or jog barefoot or in VFF.


redlude97


Jun 25, 2010, 11:40 AM
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Re: [patto] Vibram Fivefingers, good for climbing? [In reply to]
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patto wrote:
sp00ki wrote:
The best part about it is, the people who buy them to "run naturally" have never run more than three miles in their life and end up with injuries from doing little more than walking around.
That is almost me. I never ended up with injuries. Though I did have sore calves!

sp00ki wrote:
If you want your coddled, soft, weak modern feet to get strong, start by clocking >40 miles a week for six months.
Then switch to racing flats.
Once you've gotten used to the pain at your heel, arch and top of foot, switch to Vibrams.
I don't get pain in my foot, heel or arch in my VFF. Furthermore if you are getting pain in your heel you are doing something wrong, there are no muscles in your heel! You shouldn't be impacting your heel.

sp00ki wrote:
At that point, you'll begin to understand the difference between our ancestors running with bare feet after spending their entire lives walking around paths and up hills and in grass and on rock, and modern man running with bare feet on ultra hard pavement after spending 20+ years living on a sofa and driving anywhere past 1/2 a mile's walk.
How many times does it need to be said. 'Ultra hard pavement' is not a concern. We don't rely on the ground to absord the impact so it is largely irrelevent!


rtwilli4 wrote:
If you want your feet to be able to function naturally then walk around barefoot. I'm willing to bet that there isn't a single thing you do in your gay little toe condoms that I couldn't do better barefoot.
Its not a competition dude.

rtwilli4 wrote:
I'm also willing to bet that you weren't really running, but just jogging around the neighborhood for a few miles.
Jogging shit me to tears. I have never felt comfortable in a jogging pace, particularly in shoes. I can happyily run or jog barefoot or in VFF.
I would strongly disagree with this


I_do


Jun 26, 2010, 6:20 AM
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Re: [redlude97] Vibram Fivefingers, good for climbing? [In reply to]
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redlude97 wrote:
patto wrote:
sp00ki wrote:
The best part about it is, the people who buy them to "run naturally" have never run more than three miles in their life and end up with injuries from doing little more than walking around.
That is almost me. I never ended up with injuries. Though I did have sore calves!

sp00ki wrote:
If you want your coddled, soft, weak modern feet to get strong, start by clocking >40 miles a week for six months.
Then switch to racing flats.
Once you've gotten used to the pain at your heel, arch and top of foot, switch to Vibrams.
I don't get pain in my foot, heel or arch in my VFF. Furthermore if you are getting pain in your heel you are doing something wrong, there are no muscles in your heel! You shouldn't be impacting your heel.

sp00ki wrote:
At that point, you'll begin to understand the difference between our ancestors running with bare feet after spending their entire lives walking around paths and up hills and in grass and on rock, and modern man running with bare feet on ultra hard pavement after spending 20+ years living on a sofa and driving anywhere past 1/2 a mile's walk.
How many times does it need to be said. 'Ultra hard pavement' is not a concern. We don't rely on the ground to absord the impact so it is largely irrelevent!


rtwilli4 wrote:
If you want your feet to be able to function naturally then walk around barefoot. I'm willing to bet that there isn't a single thing you do in your gay little toe condoms that I couldn't do better barefoot.
Its not a competition dude.

rtwilli4 wrote:
I'm also willing to bet that you weren't really running, but just jogging around the neighborhood for a few miles.
Jogging shit me to tears. I have never felt comfortable in a jogging pace, particularly in shoes. I can happyily run or jog barefoot or in VFF.
I would strongly disagree with this

But that's just because you're not on drugs.


edge


Jun 26, 2010, 7:46 AM
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Re: [I_do] Vibram Fivefingers, good for climbing? [In reply to]
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OK, here is my biased, hateful, venomous opinion:

People who buy these have too much cash and too little common sense. I mean, these shoes are butt-ugly, and by that I mean ugly like the butt of a 78 year old who you happen to see changing clothes in a gym locker room after being water-deprived for three hours.

I cannot imagine a single scenario where these monstrosities of fashion would merit so much as a passing consideration. Frankly, I would rather have radioactive toothpicks inserted under my toe nails.

As for those who saw the ads, bought the hype, and purchased these errors, well, they are the only ones defending their purpose. I guess that is slightly more manly than admitting that they got suckered for a handful of $twenties.

Please make these shoes go away...


styndall


Jun 26, 2010, 9:43 AM
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Re: [edge] Vibram Fivefingers, good for climbing? [In reply to]
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The vitriol they inspire is amazing. Running in them feels nice, particularly on trails. Nicer than my old trail runners. That's it.

They're also $40.00 cheaper than my old trail runners.


patto


Jun 27, 2010, 6:21 AM
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Re: [styndall] Vibram Fivefingers, good for climbing? [In reply to]
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Yeah I surprised people seem to hate these so much. Especially surprised that climbers all of a sudden seem to be vain and care how their shoes look. Crazy This is from a sport which where shoes that look like rubberised ballerina shoes! Laugh

I didn't see the advertisements, didn't buy into any hype. I bought these to put my money where my mouth was on the argument I have had with friends about not needing cushioning and support.

Some people may see them as consumerism but considering this is my first pair of running shoes I have bought in 8 years might put it into perspective. After 8 years of on and off use my runners were falling apart.


jamatt


Jun 27, 2010, 8:22 AM
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Re: [edge] Vibram Fivefingers, good for climbing? [In reply to]
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edge wrote:
I seriously don't get the fascination with these shoes. Seriously.

They make crocs look good.


sp00ki


Jun 27, 2010, 12:31 PM
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patto wrote:
Yeah I surprised people seem to hate these so much. Especially surprised that climbers all of a sudden seem to be vain and care how their shoes look. Crazy This is from a sport which where shoes that look like rubberised ballerina shoes! Laugh

I didn't see the advertisements, didn't buy into any hype. I bought these to put my money where my mouth was on the argument I have had with friends about not needing cushioning and support.

Some people may see them as consumerism but considering this is my first pair of running shoes I have bought in 8 years might put it into perspective. After 8 years of on and off use my runners were falling apart.
So a non runner giving an opinion on running "shoes" on a climbing site.

This is why no one should listen to anything on the internet ever.


styndall


Jun 27, 2010, 3:00 PM
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Re: [sp00ki] Vibram Fivefingers, good for climbing? [In reply to]
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sp00ki wrote:
patto wrote:
Yeah I surprised people seem to hate these so much. Especially surprised that climbers all of a sudden seem to be vain and care how their shoes look. Crazy This is from a sport which where shoes that look like rubberised ballerina shoes! Laugh

I didn't see the advertisements, didn't buy into any hype. I bought these to put my money where my mouth was on the argument I have had with friends about not needing cushioning and support.

Some people may see them as consumerism but considering this is my first pair of running shoes I have bought in 8 years might put it into perspective. After 8 years of on and off use my runners were falling apart.
So a non runner giving an opinion on running "shoes" on a climbing site.

This is why no one should listen to anything on the internet ever.

My anecdote trumps your anecdote. Seriously, you're being dumb as hell.


carabiner96


Jun 27, 2010, 3:51 PM
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Re: [patto] Vibram Fivefingers, good for climbing? [In reply to]
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patto wrote:
After 8 years of on and off use my runners were falling apart.

No wonder you hate running shoes. 8 years? Dude...if you're actually running 3x a week, you can get a year, depending on distance, before the support and cushion kicks the bucket...if they're gross and falling apart, they're not doing their job anymore and haven't been for a while. You don't wait until your tires have holes in them before replacing them...


Partner angry


Jun 27, 2010, 5:27 PM
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Re: [carabiner96] Vibram Fivefingers, good for climbing? [In reply to]
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The rule of thumb is 500 miles. I never payed attention and just got new ones based on "feel". It seemed to be every 4-6 months when I was running a lot.

Now that I don't run, my running shoes (that I only use to run in) have lasted like 2 years and still look brand new!!


carabiner96


Jun 27, 2010, 5:35 PM
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angry wrote:
The rule of thumb is 500 miles. I never payed attention and just got new ones based on "feel". It seemed to be every 4-6 months when I was running a lot.

Now that I don't run, my running shoes (that I only use to run in) have lasted like 2 years and still look brand new!!

Yeah, sounds like this guy didn't really run in them.


patto


Jun 27, 2010, 5:50 PM
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angry wrote:
VFF's are consumerism.

angry wrote:
The rule of thumb is 500 miles. I never payed attention and just got new ones based on "feel". It seemed to be every 4-6 months when I was running a lot.

Lol and you claim VFFs are consumerism! Laugh

I never claimed I was a 'runner'. I have never been a weekly runner for pleasure. Those shoes lasted years of running, indoor soccer, cycling and many other forms of excersize.

Regardless I have been running all my life in various forms. VFF feel amazing to run in. Angelic


carabiner96


Jun 27, 2010, 6:00 PM
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patto wrote:
angry wrote:
VFF's are consumerism.

angry wrote:
The rule of thumb is 500 miles. I never payed attention and just got new ones based on "feel". It seemed to be every 4-6 months when I was running a lot.

Lol and you claim VFFs are consumerism! Laugh

I never claimed I was a 'runner'. I have never been a weekly runner for pleasure. Those shoes lasted years of running, indoor soccer, cycling and many other forms of excersize.

Regardless I have been running all my life in various forms. VFF feel amazing to run in. Angelic
See my comment on tires. When you are a runner, your shoes are tools, not the latest trendy shit.


Partner angry


Jun 27, 2010, 6:12 PM
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patto wrote:
angry wrote:
VFF's are consumerism.

angry wrote:
The rule of thumb is 500 miles. I never payed attention and just got new ones based on "feel". It seemed to be every 4-6 months when I was running a lot.

Lol and you claim VFFs are consumerism! Laugh

I never claimed I was a 'runner'. I have never been a weekly runner for pleasure. Those shoes lasted years of running, indoor soccer, cycling and many other forms of excersize.

Regardless I have been running all my life in various forms. VFF feel amazing to run in. Angelic

Foam gets packed down, once it is, running shoes should be relegated to walking and lounging shoes.

It sounds like what you had was just a pair of sneakers or tennies, sure, they'll last a while. Don't pretend that your experiences have anything to do with running.

My consumerism comment was directed to Hauraches. http://www.invisibleshoe.com/
If you want to run almost barefoot, these get the job done, cost between nothing and next to nothing (depending on if you use the Vibram Cherry rubber or just some old carpet or floormats) and take only a few minutes to make.

I can't imagine a single advantage of VFF's over these. Also, the toes were not evolved to be held wide like the VFF's do, for those "Cavemen are perfect" sorts in the crowd.

Personally I'm pretty happy with cheap Asics neutral (I find motion control/pronation shoes to actually give me MORE injuries) shoes. Once a kickstarter injury clears up, I'll be using my Hauraches to run to the beach, swim, and run home every morning before breakfast.

I wouldn't do serious miles on a fucking bet with them. Of course, the Tadamajara (spelling?) indians would take that bet.


styndall


Jun 27, 2010, 6:55 PM
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The VFFs have the advantage of keeping crap from getting between your foot and the sole and providing some protection to the fronts of toes, which can get stabbed or stubbed when running in sandals. They also don't hold your toes wide. I like to go fast on shorter trails, and VFFs feel much better than my old Vasques, which I replaced about every 6 months as the foam flattened out.

Huaraches would be fine if I were running on well-kept, level paths. If I had tough feet like Tarahumaran runners, I could use them fine, but alas, my dainty US feet aren't tough enough.

That said, anyone who gets worked up over other people's running shoe preferences needs to take a pill.


patto


Jun 27, 2010, 7:40 PM
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carabiner96 wrote:
See my comment on tires. When you are a runner, your shoes are tools, not the latest trendy shit.

Crazy Yes and my 'tools' are feet. And protect them with VFF. I'm not sure why you have a problem with that.

angry wrote:
It sounds like what you had was just a pair of sneakers or tennies, sure, they'll last a while. Don't pretend that your experiences have anything to do with running.

WTF dude. I don't care if they were tap shoes. I ran in them. How does my running experience not have anything to do with running? Crazy

angry wrote:
My consumerism comment was directed to Hauraches.
You consumerism comment is a joke when put next to your comments of requiring to replace shoes every 6 months and claiming that my running experience have nothing to do with running.

angry wrote:
Also, the toes were not evolved to be held wide like the VFF's do, for those "Cavemen are perfect" sorts in the crowd.
Personally VFF don't hold my toes wide. But your experience could be different. I suppose it all depends how wide your feet are.

Oh and the only injury of note that I have ever really had running is breaking my 5 metatarsal. This occured due to the rolling of my foot. Shoes amplify the torque on any rolling and it would have been next to impossible to occur with a low or no heel.


(This post was edited by patto on Jun 27, 2010, 7:44 PM)


Partner angry


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Re: [patto] Vibram Fivefingers, good for climbing? [In reply to]
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Geez, you're really getting worked up. Hmm, no matter what I say, you're going to get all aggro to show me just how wrong I am. Nevermind the thousands of miles I've run in my life.

You should cede your ego and listen to others ideas or even logic instead of attempting to look like some e-badass amidst your malcontempt for what seems like the entire climbing community.


patto


Jun 27, 2010, 8:13 PM
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Re: [angry] Vibram Fivefingers, good for climbing? [In reply to]
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angry wrote:
Geez, you're really getting worked up. Hmm, no matter what I say, you're going to get all aggro to show me just how wrong I am. Nevermind the thousands of miles I've run in my life.

You should cede your ego and listen to others ideas or even logic instead of attempting to look like some e-badass amidst your malcontempt for what seems like the entire climbing community.

I'm not argro, or worked up. Wink Kinda funny coming from somebody called 'angry'.

I'm not trying to 'show that you are wrong' nor judging your choices in running.

I am however happy to relay my positive experiences with VFF. And I do object to you claiming that you know the motives of my purchase better than I do and that I don't know anything about running.

I don't care if you are a world champion runner. Your experiences aren't universally applicable to everyone. Cool


(This post was edited by patto on Jun 27, 2010, 10:30 PM)


Partner angry


Jun 27, 2010, 8:19 PM
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Re: [patto] Vibram Fivefingers, good for climbing? [In reply to]
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You've made me so mad that I'm going to go take 3 planes, 2 helicopters, and a boat to get to a place that hopefully I can forget about the drubbing I've received at your merciless fingertips.


banjolele


Jun 28, 2010, 1:13 AM
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Re: [carabiner96] Vibram Fivefingers, good for climbing? [In reply to]
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carabiner96 wrote:
patto wrote:
After 8 years of on and off use my runners were falling apart.

No wonder you hate running shoes. 8 years? Dude...if you're actually running 3x a week, you can get a year, depending on distance, before the support and cushion kicks the bucket...if they're gross and falling apart, they're not doing their job anymore and haven't been for a while. You don't wait until your tires have holes in them before replacing them...

The beauty if that with these types of shoes you don't need padding, even on the harshest pavement. I ran 10k on street blacktop today in ~40 minutes and the only pains I have are from climbing.

The first use was a bit of a trial by fire doing my normal street 5k, and I definitely was a bit bruised. But using them on my normal run was good because I learned very quickly (and painfully) that landing on one's heel is bad, and hurts. As it should. It takes some time to build up the muscles (I guess ligaments/tendons/whatever too) and technique associated with this type of running style, but in the end I was a stronger runner for it.

Knowing we didn't evolve with running shoes, that forefoot striking will work muscles more in a different way, that some muscles are completely unsuited for forefoot striking after running in sneakers, and the painful nature nature of heel striking it was fairly clear the standard heel strike style (wild and outrageous claim incoming) was inadvertently developed by the shoe industry and adopted by people, rather than heel striking being the norm and shoes being developed to maximize running potential.

Go to a field/track when there is a little softness to the ground, and give both barefoot heel striking and forefoot striking a shot. If you found heel striking to be prime, no harm no foul in trying something different out.
If you found forefoot striking to be optimal, go with it.

VFF's aren't perfect, but pulling small shards of glass out of the sole (that would easily pierce heavily callused feet like mine), I'm glad for the marginal protection in a shoe that doesn't cramp my style.


(This post was edited by banjolele on Jun 28, 2010, 1:44 AM)


I_do


Jun 28, 2010, 2:40 AM
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Re: [banjolele] Vibram Fivefingers, good for climbing? [In reply to]
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banjolele wrote:
carabiner96 wrote:
patto wrote:
After 8 years of on and off use my runners were falling apart.

No wonder you hate running shoes. 8 years? Dude...if you're actually running 3x a week, you can get a year, depending on distance, before the support and cushion kicks the bucket...if they're gross and falling apart, they're not doing their job anymore and haven't been for a while. You don't wait until your tires have holes in them before replacing them...

The beauty if that with these types of shoes you don't need padding, even on the harshest pavement. I ran 10k on street blacktop today in ~40 minutes and the only pains I have are from climbing.

The first use was a bit of a trial by fire doing my normal street 5k, and I definitely was a bit bruised. But using them on my normal run was good because I learned very quickly (and painfully) that landing on one's heel is bad, and hurts. As it should. It takes some time to build up the muscles (I guess ligaments/tendons/whatever too) and technique associated with this type of running style, but in the end I was a stronger runner for it.

Knowing we didn't evolve with running shoes, that forefoot striking will work muscles more in a different way, that some muscles are completely unsuited for forefoot striking after running in sneakers, and the painful nature nature of heel striking it was fairly clear the standard heel strike style (wild and outrageous claim incoming) was inadvertently developed by the shoe industry and adopted by people, rather than heel striking being the norm and shoes being developed to maximize running potential.

Go to a field/track when there is a little softness to the ground, and give both barefoot heel striking and forefoot striking a shot. If you found heel striking to be prime, no harm no foul in trying something different out.
If you found forefoot striking to be optimal, go with it.

VFF's aren't perfect, but pulling small shards of glass out of the sole (that would easily pierce heavily callused feet like mine), I'm glad for the marginal protection in a shoe that doesn't cramp my style.

If it is true that forefoot striking is the "natural' way, why don't you point me to some info that actually would substantiate this claim eh?


patto


Jun 28, 2010, 4:33 AM
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Re: [I_do] Vibram Fivefingers, good for climbing? [In reply to]
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I_do wrote:
If it is true that forefoot striking is the "natural' way, why don't you point me to some info that actually would substantiate this claim eh?

What sort of proof do you want?

Sure it is obvious that shoes are 'natural'. And surely it is obvious that our bodies have evolved to run varied surfaces.

There is less than a centimeter of soft tissue between the bottom of your heel and bone. Basic physics would tell you that this would lead to tissue damage from heel striking on hard ground, banjolele's anecodal evidence also shows this.

But our gait and our foot strike is completely dependent on the ground type. Forefoot striking on soft sand would be odd and could lead to injury. A mid foot or heel strike is superior on soft sand. This is obvious really.

I remember finding this out the hard way running into a volcanic northern california beach. I sprinted into the water, unfortunately for me the sand change to rock/pebbles just below the water line. Bruised heels because I was heel striking. Blush


I_do


Jun 28, 2010, 5:04 AM
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Re: [patto] Vibram Fivefingers, good for climbing? [In reply to]
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patto wrote:
I_do wrote:
If it is true that forefoot striking is the "natural' way, why don't you point me to some info that actually would substantiate this claim eh?

What sort of proof do you want?

Sure it is obvious that shoes are 'natural'. And surely it is obvious that our bodies have evolved to run varied surfaces.

There is less than a centimeter of soft tissue between the bottom of your heel and bone. Basic physics would tell you that this would lead to tissue damage from heel striking on hard ground, banjolele's anecodal evidence also shows this.

But our gait and our foot strike is completely dependent on the ground type. Forefoot striking on soft sand would be odd and could lead to injury. A mid foot or heel strike is superior on soft sand. This is obvious really.

I remember finding this out the hard way running into a volcanic northern california beach. I sprinted into the water, unfortunately for me the sand change to rock/pebbles just below the water line. Bruised heels because I was heel striking. Blush

Ah another post full of anecdotes, seriously dude it's not that hard. I want some data/research suggesting people ran with a forefoot strike before they got influenced by the heelstrikenazi's.


patto


Jun 28, 2010, 5:25 AM
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Re: [I_do] Vibram Fivefingers, good for climbing? [In reply to]
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I_do wrote:
Ah another post full of anecdotes, seriously dude it's not that hard. I want some data/research suggesting people ran with a forefoot strike before they got influenced by the heelstrikenazi's.

Do you need data or research to tell you that dropping a hammer on you toe hurts?

I am not you librarian so I am not getting you your data. Go for a barefoot run on hard ground and decide for yourself.


Partner j_ung


Jun 28, 2010, 5:31 AM
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Re: [edge] Vibram Fivefingers, good for climbing? [In reply to]
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edge wrote:
I seriously don't get the fascination with these shoes. Seriously.

Toe socks had a 3 month moment of appreciation in the early 80's (?) and I would rather wear those than these monstrosities of fashion.

So, they help build muscle when you run? Maybe run barefoot. I hear people have been doing that for a couple decades, at least.

People have been running for decades under the close scrutiny of Nike/Adidas/Whoever. Do you seriously think that they missed the advantages (not!) of offering a shoe with five toes in independent sleeves of rubber that may make other people ask questions prior to laugh and pointing?

Again, I just don't get it, and even if I did, I have more self-pride than to allow myself that indiscretion.

I have Vibram 5-fingers tattooed all over both my feet, so it looks like I'm wearing them, even when I'm not. Tongue


I_do


Jun 28, 2010, 5:39 AM
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Re: [patto] Vibram Fivefingers, good for climbing? [In reply to]
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patto wrote:
I_do wrote:
Ah another post full of anecdotes, seriously dude it's not that hard. I want some data/research suggesting people ran with a forefoot strike before they got influenced by the heelstrikenazi's.

Do you need data or research to tell you that dropping a hammer on you toe hurts?

I am not you librarian so I am not getting you your data. Go for a barefoot run on hard ground and decide for yourself.

Well obviously the heel is padded, so it is designed to absorb impact, so it is natural to run with a heel strike. See how that works?

You're the one making unsubstantiated (sp?) claims, so you need to supply some non-anecdotal arguments that don't revolve around your perceived notion of what is natural.

Here I'll show you how; patto is talking out his ass about stuff he clearly knows jack shit about, as evidenced by his posts in this thread.

You see? I make a claim, I support it with data, now you try or get out of the discussion.

edit to add, all you say is that you think it is better for you, outside of your frame of reference your claims hold no stake.


(This post was edited by I_do on Jun 28, 2010, 5:46 AM)


patto


Jun 28, 2010, 5:45 AM
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Re: [I_do] Vibram Fivefingers, good for climbing? [In reply to]
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Or I can choose to ignore your idiocy! Wink


I_do


Jun 28, 2010, 6:30 AM
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Re: [patto] Vibram Fivefingers, good for climbing? [In reply to]
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patto wrote:
Or I can choose to ignore your idiocy! Wink

Sure you can, no-one can force you to act like an adult.


jt512


Jun 28, 2010, 7:55 AM
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Re: [patto] Vibram Fivefingers, good for climbing? [In reply to]
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patto wrote:
I_do wrote:
Ah another post full of anecdotes, seriously dude it's not that hard. I want some data/research suggesting people ran with a forefoot strike before they got influenced by the heelstrikenazi's.

Do you need data or research to tell you that dropping a hammer on you toe hurts?

I am not you librarian so I am not getting you your data. Go for a barefoot run on hard ground and decide for yourself.

Yeah, go run barefoot on concrete to determine the natural way to run on the savanna.

Even if that could prove that it is more "natural" to run with a forefoot strike, "what is natural" is a red herring. The issue isn't which is more natural; it's which is better (less injurious, more efficient, etc.).

So, you have proposed an invalid test of the wrong hypothesis.

Jay


patto


Jun 28, 2010, 8:17 AM
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Re: [jt512] Vibram Fivefingers, good for climbing? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
patto wrote:
I_do wrote:
Ah another post full of anecdotes, seriously dude it's not that hard. I want some data/research suggesting people ran with a forefoot strike before they got influenced by the heelstrikenazi's.

Do you need data or research to tell you that dropping a hammer on you toe hurts?

I am not you librarian so I am not getting you your data. Go for a barefoot run on hard ground and decide for yourself.

Yeah, go run barefoot on concrete to determine the natural way to run on the savanna.

I wasn't suggesting this. You will see that I have already pointed out that we naturally heel strike on some surfaces barefoot.

jt512 wrote:
Even if that could prove that it is more "natural" to run with a forefoot strike, "what is natural" is a red herring. The issue isn't which is more natural; it's which is better (less injurious, more efficient, etc.).

So, you have proposed an invalid test of the wrong hypothesis.

I haven't proposed any test whatsoever. Nor have I argued that VFF are more efficient or universally less injurious.

All I have said is that I enjoy running in them and they are suitable for ME. Is that really that contravertial of a claim! I have never suggested they are suitable for everybody.


jt512


Jun 28, 2010, 8:28 AM
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Re: [patto] Vibram Fivefingers, good for climbing? [In reply to]
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patto wrote:
jt512 wrote:
patto wrote:
I_do wrote:
Ah another post full of anecdotes, seriously dude it's not that hard. I want some data/research suggesting people ran with a forefoot strike before they got influenced by the heelstrikenazi's.

Do you need data or research to tell you that dropping a hammer on you toe hurts?

I am not you librarian so I am not getting you your data.

Yeah, go run barefoot on concrete to determine the natural way to run on the savanna.

I wasn't suggesting this. You will see that I have already pointed out that we naturally heel strike on some surfaces barefoot.

jt512 wrote:
Even if that could prove that it is more "natural" to run with a forefoot strike, "what is natural" is a red herring. The issue isn't which is more natural; it's which is better (less injurious, more efficient, etc.).

So, you have proposed an invalid test of the wrong hypothesis.

I haven't proposed any test whatsoever.

Yes, you did: "Go for a barefoot run on hard ground and decide for yourself."

In reply to:
Nor have I argued that VFF are more efficient or universally less injurious.

Well, if you had, at least then you'd have been arguing something relevant.

Jay


caughtinside


Jun 28, 2010, 9:11 AM
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Re: [jt512] Vibram Fivefingers, good for climbing? [In reply to]
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man, people sure get fired up over those silly looking shoes! Really, who cares what shoes people wear? Most people think rock climbing is stupid.

I always thought those five fingers would be nice descent shoes, lightweight and low profile on the harness. The climbers I know who have them dig them.


pacman529


Jun 28, 2010, 9:34 AM
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Re: [I_do] Vibram Fivefingers, good for climbing? [In reply to]
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I_do wrote:
If it is true that forefoot striking is the "natural' way, why don't you point me to some info that actually would substantiate this claim eh?

i'm trying to remain neutral, but i did find this: http://www.barefootrunning.fas.harvard.edu/4BiomechanicsofFootStrike.html


styndall


Jun 28, 2010, 10:10 AM
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Re: [jt512] Vibram Fivefingers, good for climbing? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
patto wrote:
I_do wrote:
Ah another post full of anecdotes, seriously dude it's not that hard. I want some data/research suggesting people ran with a forefoot strike before they got influenced by the heelstrikenazi's.

Do you need data or research to tell you that dropping a hammer on you toe hurts?

I am not you librarian so I am not getting you your data. Go for a barefoot run on hard ground and decide for yourself.

Yeah, go run barefoot on concrete to determine the natural way to run on the savanna.

Even if that could prove that it is more "natural" to run with a forefoot strike, "what is natural" is a red herring. The issue isn't which is more natural; it's which is better (less injurious, more efficient, etc.).

So, you have proposed an invalid test of the wrong hypothesis.

Jay

I recall reading some study (or, if not a study, a collection of anecdotes) by a podiatrist (or some podiatrists?) that suggested that they saw more knee injuries from heel-strikers and more foot puncture wounds from barefoot runners. I can't find it at the moment, though, so take that very tentatively. I don't imagine there's a big enough community of barefoot runners for injury rates to have seen extensive study anyway.


EDIT: From the Harvard site pacman529 linked above:
In reply to:
Do barefoot runners get injured less?
Barefoot runners often adopt forefoot or midfoot strike gaits and have softer landing, which may reduce their risk of injury. While there are anectodal reports of barefoot runners being injured less, there is very little scientific evidence to support this hypothesis at this time. Well-controlled studies are needed to determine whether barefoot running results in fewer injuries.


(This post was edited by styndall on Jun 28, 2010, 10:20 AM)


banjolele


Jun 28, 2010, 11:26 AM
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Re: [I_do] Vibram Fivefingers, good for climbing? [In reply to]
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I_do wrote:
If it is true that forefoot striking is the "natural' way, why don't you point me to some info that actually would substantiate this claim eh?

Sure. Will a professor of evolutionary of biology be enough to satisfy your need for an authority on natural biomechanics?

http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/post.cfm?id=running-barefoot-is-better-research-2010-01-27

Until there is reviewed study to substantiate any claim, all of this is conjecture and anecdotes. Like Jay said, it may turn out that the normal heel strike is better for the majority. A guy asked whether VFFs are good for climbing, they are not. Are they good for running? They work well for me.


I_do


Jun 29, 2010, 3:51 AM
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Re: [banjolele] Vibram Fivefingers, good for climbing? [In reply to]
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banjolele wrote:
I_do wrote:
If it is true that forefoot striking is the "natural' way, why don't you point me to some info that actually would substantiate this claim eh?

Sure. Will a professor of evolutionary of biology be enough to satisfy your need for an authority on natural biomechanics?

http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/post.cfm?id=running-barefoot-is-better-research-2010-01-27

Until there is reviewed study to substantiate any claim, all of this is conjecture and anecdotes. Like Jay said, it may turn out that the normal heel strike is better for the majority. A guy asked whether VFFs are good for climbing, they are not. Are they good for running? They work well for me.

Thanks dude, looked at the video and will have a look at the original paper. So far they seem to think barefoot forefoot strikers might be less prone to injury. Pretty interesting stuff.
Have fun running and stay away from Jay while wearing VFF's Cool


Partner j_ung


Jun 29, 2010, 5:40 AM
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Re: [caughtinside] Vibram Fivefingers, good for climbing? [In reply to]
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caughtinside wrote:
man, people sure get fired up over those silly looking shoes!

If climbers think a shoe is funny looking, it's probably true. Laugh


patto


Jun 29, 2010, 5:49 AM
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I_do wrote:
Thanks dude, looked at the video and will have a look at the original paper.

I'm surprised that satisfies your demand of 'proof'. I didn't respond to your demands because that is evidence not 'proof'. Furthermore if you haven't heard of the Lieberman study you obviously haven't bother too look into yourself.

I_do wrote:
So far they seem to think barefoot forefoot strikers might be less prone to injury.

Not quite:

Please note that we present no data or opinions on how people should run, whether shoes cause some injuries, or whether barefoot running causes other kinds of injuries. We believe there is a strong need for controlled, prospective studies on these problems.

Short of reading the paper itself this is the site to go to for the Lieberman study.
http://www.barefootrunning.fas.harvard.edu/


I_do


Jun 29, 2010, 6:04 AM
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patto wrote:
I_do wrote:
Thanks dude, looked at the video and will have a look at the original paper.

I'm surprised that satisfies your demand of 'proof'. I didn't respond to your demands because that is evidence not 'proof'. Furthermore if you haven't heard of the Lieberman study you obviously haven't bother too look into yourself.

I_do wrote:
So far they seem to think barefoot forefoot strikers might be less prone to injury.

Not quite:

Please note that we present no data or opinions on how people should run, whether shoes cause some injuries, or whether barefoot running causes other kinds of injuries. We believe there is a strong need for controlled, prospective studies on these problems.

Short of reading the paper itself this is the site to go to for the Lieberman study.
http://www.barefootrunning.fas.harvard.edu/

I first asked Banjole for info that would substantiate the claim that forefoot running is the "natural way".

To which you responded with what proof do you want? I once ran into an ocean.

Then I asked specifically for data/research suggesting people ran with a forefoot strike.

To which Banjole responded with the link.

So I never asked for proof I asked for data substantiating that claim. There is no proof yet.

You didn't respond because you don't feel it's necessary, cause it's all so "logical".

The disclaimer you quote from the article does not take away from their cautionary first conclusions, they just don't want to claim they figured it all out and have people change their behaviour based on these results, it's to early. Hence the words; seem to think, and; might be less prone to injury.

I've been carefull in my wording, so your remarks are, well, of the mark.

And no I didn't bother to look for myself, I didn't make any claims, the burden of proof is on the one making the claim. I really don't see why we needed to get into an argument here.
Look at banjoles response and then yours.


mr_rogers


Jun 29, 2010, 7:26 AM
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caughtinside wrote:
I always thought those five fingers would be nice descent shoes, lightweight and low profile on the harness.

They're brilliant approach/descent shoes. They take up less space than a flip-flop in your pack, and hike exactly 12.36 times better.(N1) I could even roll them up and shove them in a pocket if I wanted to.



N1 - The hikeability of VFF was measured using a recently calibrated MaxHike Brand Hike-ometer 5000 on loan from the Cal-Tech bipedal motion research lab. The results were analyzed, and then the experiment repeated by researchers from Cern Center on Human Powered Overland Travel (Das Mountainwalkenfooten center). The results of both studies were published in the peer reviewed publication: Journal of Pedantic Studies for Internet Debaters Vol. 3 Is. 246 (2009). The abstract of the article is available at the following link, full article available with subscription.

http://5z8.info/...how-to-skin-a-gerbil


gmggg


Jun 29, 2010, 11:05 AM
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mr_rogers wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
I always thought those five fingers would be nice descent shoes, lightweight and low profile on the harness.

They're brilliant approach/descent shoes. They take up less space than a flip-flop in your pack, and hike exactly 12.36 times better.(N1) I could even roll them up and shove them in a pocket if I wanted to.



N1 - The hikeability of VFF was measured using a recently calibrated MaxHike Brand Hike-ometer 5000 on loan from the Cal-Tech bipedal motion research lab. The results were analyzed, and then the experiment repeated by researchers from Cern Center on Human Powered Overland Travel (Das Mountainwalkenfooten center). The results of both studies were published in the peer reviewed publication: Journal of Pedantic Studies for Internet Debaters Vol. 3 Is. 246 (2009). The abstract of the article is available at the following link, full article available with subscription.

http://5z8.info/...how-to-skin-a-gerbil

Wrong. And I can probably scrape together some data to back that statement up if you foo-foos need it.


pacman529


Jun 29, 2010, 1:18 PM
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Re: [gmggg] Vibram Fivefingers, good for climbing? [In reply to]
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gmggg wrote:
mr_rogers wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
I always thought those five fingers would be nice descent shoes, lightweight and low profile on the harness.

They're brilliant approach/descent shoes. They take up less space than a flip-flop in your pack, and hike exactly 12.36 times better.(N1) I could even roll them up and shove them in a pocket if I wanted to.



N1 - The hikeability of VFF was measured using a recently calibrated MaxHike Brand Hike-ometer 5000 on loan from the Cal-Tech bipedal motion research lab. The results were analyzed, and then the experiment repeated by researchers from Cern Center on Human Powered Overland Travel (Das Mountainwalkenfooten center). The results of both studies were published in the peer reviewed publication: Journal of Pedantic Studies for Internet Debaters Vol. 3 Is. 246 (2009). The abstract of the article is available at the following link, full article available with subscription.

http://5z8.info/...how-to-skin-a-gerbil

Wrong. And I can probably scrape together some data to back that statement up if you foo-foos need it.

if you're going to make a statement like that, against another statement that apparently is backed up by evidence, of course you are going to have to support your assertion with data!


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