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Carnage
Jan 29, 2010, 5:04 AM
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see this blog post for a video http://www.rockclimbergirl.com/...-wire-carabiner.html
seems pretty useless. i seriously doubt they will stay open when racked, and even if they do, i dont want to reset 12 draws every time i do a route. They advertise (according to the blog) for steep sport. anything steep sport that where clipping could make the fall or not fall difference will have prehung draws. good luck loading a bunch of these prehung draws on a super overhung route.
all in all, its an if it aint broke, dont fix it situation. Clipping is already super easy. If you fall consistently (everyone blows a clip now and then) because of clipping, its not the clipping that's getting you, you just suck at climbing.
edit: fix broken link
(This post was edited by Carnage on Jan 29, 2010, 4:51 PM)
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evanwish
Jan 29, 2010, 5:14 AM
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broken link?
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coolcat83
Jan 29, 2010, 5:20 AM
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seems to me they are advertising it as being easy to use without having to use fancy stick clip methods, check out this vid http://www.rockclimbergirl.com/
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nate2006
Jan 29, 2010, 5:21 AM
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Everyone and their dog will have this biner on the rope end of their draws in less than a year.
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coolcat83
Jan 29, 2010, 5:23 AM
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guess we posted that vid at the same time
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evanwish
Jan 29, 2010, 5:30 AM
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well good catch!
I think it might be a bit touchy on how easily it will stay open, but that really does look amazing! Just get one of those set up for your crux move and pretty much neglect the extra weight
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gmggg
Jan 29, 2010, 2:48 PM
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I imagine they will stay open while racked pretty well, there is a bit of a hook to the trigger mechanism.
It is a fabulous idea, It appears to be engineered very well. And it appears to solve a problem that no one should be having. While useless might be a bit extreme, I will say that they are unnecessary and frivolous.
I agree, however, that they will sell many many of these. After all clipping (and ones apparent inability to practice, learn, or effectively struggle through it) is what holds most people back from breaking through to the 5.double-digits-with-scary-letters.
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vegastradguy
Jan 29, 2010, 4:33 PM
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gmggg wrote: I imagine they will stay open while racked pretty well, there is a bit of a hook to the trigger mechanism.
its my understanding that the trigger mechanism is ridiculously sensitive (as it should be, imho)- and would never stay open while racked- its meant to hang at a bolt and set open on rappel for redpoint attempts.
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caughtinside
Jan 29, 2010, 4:38 PM
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vegastradguy wrote: gmggg wrote: I imagine they will stay open while racked pretty well, there is a bit of a hook to the trigger mechanism. its my understanding that the trigger mechanism is ridiculously sensitive (as it should be, imho)- and would never stay open while racked- its meant to hang at a bolt and set open on rappel for redpoint attempts.
I was wondering about that. WHile neat, these have a lot of limitations.
If you had them racked open on your harness, all those hooks would snag each other. Which does basically mean they already have to be on the wall. So they're only any good for redpoint burns where the draws are up, and you lower, unclip and set the gate on the way down.
THen you get into the area where I'm not sure I've fallen redpointing because I can't open the gate to clip a prehung draw. If I touch the body of the biner before the rope goes in the gate will it snap closed?
Anyway, they probably will sell a lot of these initially, but it looks pretty gimmicky.
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Carnage
Jan 29, 2010, 4:55 PM
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gmggg wrote: ... I agree, however, that they will sell many many of these. After all clipping (and ones apparent inability to practice, learn, or effectively struggle through it) is what holds most people back from breaking through to the 5.double-digits-with-scary-letters.
i disagree. I think that clipping something that you struggle with when first learning to lead, with a little practice you get good enough at it, and by the time you get the 5.hard you should have clipped so may draws in your time that you're a pro at clipping.
people may tell themselves that clipping is what is keeping them from leading that super hard route they just top roped, but clipping is just what they tell themselves, there are other things causing them to fail.
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vegastradguy
Jan 29, 2010, 5:03 PM
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Carnage wrote: gmggg wrote: ... I agree, however, that they will sell many many of these. After all clipping (and ones apparent inability to practice, learn, or effectively struggle through it) is what holds most people back from breaking through to the 5.double-digits-with-scary-letters. i disagree. I think that clipping something that you struggle with when first learning to lead, with a little practice you get good enough at it, and by the time you get the 5.hard you should have clipped so may draws in your time that you're a pro at clipping. people may tell themselves that clipping is what is keeping them from leading that super hard route they just top roped, but clipping is just what they tell themselves, there are other things causing them to fail.
+1
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gmggg
Jan 29, 2010, 5:47 PM
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Carnage wrote: gmggg wrote: ... I agree, however, that they will sell many many of these. After all clipping (and ones apparent inability to practice, learn, or effectively struggle through it) is what holds most people back from breaking through to the 5.double-digits-with-scary-letters. i disagree. I think that clipping something that you struggle with when first learning to lead, with a little practice you get good enough at it, and by the time you get the 5.hard you should have clipped so may draws in your time that you're a pro at clipping. people may tell themselves that clipping is what is keeping them from leading that super hard route they just top roped, but clipping is just what they tell themselves, there are other things causing them to fail.
Sarcasm fail.
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gmggg
Jan 29, 2010, 5:54 PM
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vegastradguy wrote: gmggg wrote: I imagine they will stay open while racked pretty well, there is a bit of a hook to the trigger mechanism. its my understanding that the trigger mechanism is ridiculously sensitive (as it should be, imho)- and would never stay open while racked- its meant to hang at a bolt and set open on rappel for redpoint attempts.
Hmm... Did you see them at OR? I didn't get to go, but a buddy was saying that they were pretty firm and that they could get slapped around a bit. I didn't think about pre-hung draws though. Can we invent a use for trad climbing too?
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tedman
Jan 29, 2010, 6:22 PM
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I could see owning one for the bolt end of a stick clip, but other than that...
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lena_chita
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Jan 29, 2010, 6:22 PM
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vegastradguy wrote: gmggg wrote: I imagine they will stay open while racked pretty well, there is a bit of a hook to the trigger mechanism. its my understanding that the trigger mechanism is ridiculously sensitive (as it should be, imho)- and would never stay open while racked- its meant to hang at a bolt and set open on rappel for redpoint attempts.
That was my thought, too.
I have one Kong Frog draw for reachy clips. This one:
http://www.alpinist.com/...b08s/rb-pd-kong-frog
You are supposed to press the 'ears' on the side to open it, and then it closes at the barest touch to the bolt hanger. I thought I could prime it open before starting the climb ,and it would stay open until I need to use it. but no, it springs close at the lightest touch, so the bumping against other draws would do it...
It is not a problem to prime the frog one-handed before hanging the draw, but it appears that it would be hard to "prime" those new mad rock draws one-handed, so your suggestion of how they could be used onredpoint attempt makes sense.
What doesn't make sense it why it would be really necessary... maybe once in a blue moon there is a hard clip where this would make a difference... but I don't really see it.
I can see that it might also be helpful for stick-clipping, b/c right now some of the stick clips don't do well with wire-gate draw on the bolt-end side, and it would be easier to stick-clip with a primed draw, instead of going through "put-a-little-twig-to-hold-the-gate-open" routine.
Minor issue, for sure, both stick clipping and hard-clip-on-redpoint.
But convenient, so I predict it would be used.
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vegastradguy
Jan 29, 2010, 8:57 PM
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gmggg wrote: vegastradguy wrote: gmggg wrote: I imagine they will stay open while racked pretty well, there is a bit of a hook to the trigger mechanism. its my understanding that the trigger mechanism is ridiculously sensitive (as it should be, imho)- and would never stay open while racked- its meant to hang at a bolt and set open on rappel for redpoint attempts. Hmm... Did you see them at OR? I didn't get to go, but a buddy was saying that they were pretty firm and that they could get slapped around a bit. I didn't think about pre-hung draws though. Can we invent a use for trad climbing too?
i did not- but theclimbergirl did, and posted a video on her blog about it as well (rockclimbergirl.com for those interested)- i also talked with her about it and she said they were VERY sensivitve- but she also mentioned that they were still working on the trigger itself (apparently its a PITA right now to manipulate with one hand).
at any rate, whatever- im not really interested in it because i dont have a problem clipping my rope into a carabiner.
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shoo
Jan 29, 2010, 9:05 PM
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tedman wrote: I could see owning one for the bolt end of a stick clip, but other than that...
+1
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hincking
Jan 30, 2010, 7:26 PM
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i get why people dont like this idea, but even if it does do its thing while being racked and what not its still a functionable draw. as long as its not more expensive than others i dont see why to hate on it. it will serve the same purpose as any other quickdraws even if it is triggered while racking......no?
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mtkinji
Jun 30, 2010, 9:56 PM
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Having handled them pretty extensively, I'll say this:
1) I like them
2) It took a pretty good whack along the spine to get the mechanism to unlock and close - it's designed to stay open in that kind of a situation. So NO, they're not ridiculously sensitive.
3) These are designed to close when the "trigger" is hit, not when the carabiner itself is hit. The trigger is very easy to hit with the rope - despite that, they DO stay open while hanging from your harness. This means that you CAN set the trigger, clip the draw to your harness, and send. If, in the unlikely event that it closes, it's still a fine quickdraw - no extra hassle.
4) Mad Rock probably doesn't expect you to switch all of your rack's rope-side carabiners - these are intended more for crux draws. These are made to eliminating that extra second or two of fumbling with that difficult clip. You'll be happy you had some when you send your project. They DO work for that.
5) Easier than normal draws to stick clip - now all you need is a stick and a rubber band.
6) No, I don't work for Mad Rock
Summary: You don't have to like them, or even think they're functional enough to buy - but you'd better actually use them before you pass an opinion on how they really function. The bottom line is that they can only improve your climbing.
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vegastradguy
Jul 1, 2010, 6:21 AM
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mtkinji wrote: Summary: You don't have to like them, or even think they're functional enough to buy - but you'd better actually use them before you pass an opinion on how they really function. The bottom line is that they can only improve your climbing.
i was just passing along info i got at OR- i was also under the impression that the trigger wires at OR were pre-pros, which means that they likely worked out some kinks with the trigger mechanism prior to production.
regardless, i'll once again state that i think this really does solve a problem that doesnt exist....
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patto
Jul 1, 2010, 7:25 AM
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evanwish wrote: well good catch! I think it might be a bit touchy on how easily it will stay open, but that really does look amazing! Just get one of those set up for your crux move and pretty much neglect the extra weight
Sport climbers are funny. 
Extra weight. You would save more weight by shaving your nut sack.
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evanwish
Jul 1, 2010, 4:22 PM
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patto wrote: evanwish wrote: well good catch! I think it might be a bit touchy on how easily it will stay open, but that really does look amazing! Just get one of those set up for your crux move and pretty much neglect the extra weight Sport climbers are funny. Extra weight. You would save more weight by shaving your nut sack.
I actually don't sport climb.
But i did just got off a big wall (admittingly far from unscathed) where a bolt ladder was so stretched out that at times i would still have difficulty reaching a bolt from my second steps. I ended up having to do the quick draw swing where you try to hit the gate hard enough to clip it. One of these mad rock's would have made those top stepping moves to fixed gear much much easier!
With all the gear of a big wall, it helps to go light!
PS: no chance in me bringing a cheater stick...
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rtwilli4
Jul 1, 2010, 4:47 PM
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mtkinji wrote: 4) Mad Rock probably doesn't expect you to switch all of your rack's rope-side carabiners - these are intended more for crux draws. These are made to eliminating that extra second or two of fumbling with that difficult clip. You'll be happy you had some when you send your project. They DO work for that. 5) Easier than normal draws to stick clip - now all you need is a stick and a rubber band. Summary: You don't have to like them, or even think they're functional enough to buy - but you'd better actually use them before you pass an opinion on how they really function. The bottom line is that they can only improve your climbing.
4 - So instead of just grabbing the draw off my harness and clipping, I'll have to LOOK DOWN AT MY HARNESS AND CHOOSE THE CORRECT DRAW! I can definitely see how this will help me "send my project."
5 - Since when do you ever need anything but a stick and a rubber band?
Summary - They function exactly as advertised, which is for dumb asses with too much money who probably don't even climb hard enough to worry about "sending."
What a fucking joke.
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mtkinji
Jul 1, 2010, 7:51 PM
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Listen dude, if you're mad then go take it out on your dog - this is a gear forum.
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