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healyje


Jul 17, 2010, 1:40 AM
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BEGINNERS: INNOVATION - PLEASE READ...
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Innovation is a great thing, and strides have been made in rock climbing because of it. And while I have no doubt all you beginners are bright folks and some of you are even true geniuses and rocket scientists in your own right - but...

!!!PLEASE DON'T TRY TO REINVENT OR INNOVATE THE BASIC MECHANICS AND CONVENTIONS OF CLIMBING GEAR USE AS A BEGINNER!!!

Do yourself, everyone around you, and all of us here a favor and just focus on the basics of existing best practices in rock climbing as they currently exist. This is a sport where you want to drill those home and hone them down as quickly and reliably as possible and then move on to developing a solid foundation of the full range of today's best practices.

Climbing is not a sport to attempt to be 'clever' at, to 'innovate', or to develop alternative ways of using our gear as a beginner. We're seeing way too much of that of late on RC and it's beginning to be a worrisome trend that will eventually cost a life or two. Avoid being a candidate for this year's Darwin Awards and just learn the traditional best practices of the sport.

Do that for about 5-10 years of extensive yardage and experience on stone and then you can think about it. But even then most of us don't stray far from what we all agree works - leaps like clean pro, cams, and grigris do happen - but they are rare exceptions; most innovation in the sport comes in slow, incremental tweaks.

There is little or nothing to be gained by being 'clever' as a beginner and much to lose. So please just focus on learning the basics and mastering the best practices as they are until you are well along in the sport.


(This post was edited by healyje on Jul 17, 2010, 2:10 AM)


airscape


Jul 17, 2010, 2:31 AM
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Re: [healyje] BEGINNERS: INNOVATION - PLEASE READ... [In reply to]
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Yup.

But innovative people will not wait.


Partner rgold


Jul 17, 2010, 5:57 AM
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Re: [healyje] BEGINNERS: INNOVATION - PLEASE READ... [In reply to]
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Wisdom for a guy who's been around the block a few times and who, having acquired the requisite experience, has also modified more equipment (i.e. has meaningfully innovated) than most of the rest of us combined.

Learn the time-tested ways thoroughly before you start making up your own solutions. Experience here suggests that home-grown techniques concocted by people of modest experience are almost always seriously flawed.


socalclimber


Jul 17, 2010, 6:40 AM
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Re: [healyje] BEGINNERS: INNOVATION - PLEASE READ... [In reply to]
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Thumbs up for this one!


sittingduck


Jul 17, 2010, 8:18 AM
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Re: [healyje] BEGINNERS: INNOVATION - PLEASE READ... [In reply to]
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The reason climbers try to "invent the wheel" may be that different authorities have different best practices.

You for instance, are saying that it is unfortunate that auto-block devices are the norm nowadays. Other authorities, like Petzl and BD to name a few, seems to think they are great best practices.

In the eye of the beginner it may look like no one knows the best practice. This may lead to confusion, and the logical assumption that the best practice is yet to be invented.


jt512


Jul 17, 2010, 8:22 AM
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sittingduck wrote:
The reason climbers try to "invent the wheel" may be that different authorities have different best practices.

You for instance, are saying that it is unfortunate that auto-block devices are the norm nowadays. Other authorities, like Petzl and BD to name a few, seems to think they are great best practices.

In the eye of the beginner it may look like no one knows the best practice. This may lead to confusion, and the logical assumption that the best practice is yet to be invented.

That is all completely irrelevant. The fact there may be different accepted ways of doing something in no way justifies the attitude that, as a beginner, you can or should try to develop your own "improvements."

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Jul 17, 2010, 8:23 AM)


sittingduck


Jul 17, 2010, 8:59 AM
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jt512 wrote:
sittingduck wrote:
The reason climbers try to "invent the wheel" may be that different authorities have different best practices.

You for instance, are saying that it is unfortunate that auto-block devices are the norm nowadays. Other authorities, like Petzl and BD to name a few, seems to think they are great best practices.

In the eye of the beginner it may look like no one knows the best practice. This may lead to confusion, and the logical assumption that the best practice is yet to be invented.



That is all completely irrelevant. The fact there may be different accepted ways of doing something in no way justifies the attitude that, as a beginner, you can or should try to develop your own "improvements."

Come sit in my hand and let me tell you about the war.
I did not say that anything justifies the attitude towards developing your own "improvements".


avalon420


Jul 17, 2010, 12:11 PM
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Thank you, that was very well articulated. MODS, COULD WE PLEASE STICKY THIS IN THE PROPER PLACES!!!!!!


TarHeelEMT


Jul 17, 2010, 2:15 PM
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avalon420 wrote:
Thank you, that was very well articulated. MODS, COULD WE PLEASE STICKY THIS IN THE PROPER PLACES!!!!!!

Yes, please.


gazoo9224


Jul 17, 2010, 11:26 PM
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i think,to be truely innovative then all rules go out the door.
creativity recruires total freedom.
then if you have an idea present it to the community and they will separate the good from the idiotic.
if people think the same way they get the same results.
on the other hands the noobs have to respect the opinion of people who are doing this for decades.


jh_angel


Jul 17, 2010, 11:38 PM
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sittingduck wrote:
You for instance, are saying that it is unfortunate that auto-block devices are the norm nowadays. Other authorities, like Petzl and BD to name a few, seems to think they are great best practices.

Yes, but they only recommend them after first learning and mastering the usage of standard tube style devices like the basic ATC. Every auto locking/blocking device I've seen is listed as an advanced belay device in it's manual. They are fantastic to have around, but only after you've got the basics down cold.


Greggle


Jul 17, 2010, 11:40 PM
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Re: [gazoo9224] BEGINNERS: INNOVATION - PLEASE READ... [In reply to]
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gazoo9224 wrote:
i think,to be truely innovative then all rules go out the door.
creativity recruires total freedom.
then if you have an idea present it to the community and they will separate the good from the idiotic.
if people think the same way they get the same results.
on the other hands the noobs have to respect the opinion of people who are doing this for decades.

Gee whiz! The nine or so posts you've made in the last half-hour have really convinced me that you've mended your ways as a blatant spammer.

Moving your spam link to your sig' was nothing short of brilliant...


majid_sabet


Jul 18, 2010, 12:04 AM
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thanks to internet for accelerating this innovation process cause noobs and pros can now easily share their thoughts with speed of sound and before you know it, sh* already is spinning of the fan.


bennydh


Jul 18, 2010, 1:06 AM
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In reply to:
sh* already is spinning of the fan.

Oh Majid. I like it, good try.


bennydh


Jul 18, 2010, 1:24 AM
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The Wright brothers were innovative noobs in the field of aviation.

I suppose if there were more fatalities before successful flight, you'd give them Darwin Awards then tell them to stick to hot air balloons for another decade?


I'm mostly playing devils advocate because I don't particularly like your matter-de-facto style of posts, even if I partially agree with this one.


gazoo9224


Jul 18, 2010, 4:27 AM
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i'm not saying they should do anything dangerous or stupid. the noobs should discuss their plans with others who know what they are talking about, but even they should have the liberty of thinking outside the box. in fact i think they probably will think outside the box better because they are not restricted by years of conditionning.
who are we to say that someone is only allowed to innovate after x number of years of experience.
no i think we should encourage the noobs for doing so, as well should we watch them and teach them the basics.

there is nothing more important then putting milk in to babies.


gazoo9224


Jul 18, 2010, 4:37 AM
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btw:
for those who think i am only spamming.
this is me. and yes i've done this in one year of training.
Attachments: 6571_1152949397687_1646237237_388900_8115986_n.jpg (27.9 KB)


patto


Jul 18, 2010, 4:44 AM
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I totally disagree. Climbing to me has always been about analysis and innovation.

Your plead here that beginners follow 'conventions' of climbing gear use ignores the fact that there is little common conventions in the sport. Furthermore some conventions are positively dangerous.

Climbing to me has been about knowing your tools and applying them to the situation.


gazoo9224


Jul 18, 2010, 5:36 AM
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nono. i am saying they shouldn't follow too much convention. hey should try to push the envelope, but do it under a watchfull eye off an experienced climber.

wether of not that there is o lot of or a lack of convention in climbing is a discussion on its own :-)

grtz


johnwesely


Jul 18, 2010, 6:50 AM
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gazoo9224 wrote:
btw:
for those who think i am only spamming.
this is me. and yes i've done this in one year of training.

Now you are spamming and spraying. Strong work. I am super proud of your plastic pulling though. Is your mother?


healyje


Jul 18, 2010, 12:24 PM
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Re: [bennydh] BEGINNERS: INNOVATION - PLEASE READ... [In reply to]
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bennydh wrote:
The Wright brothers were innovative noobs in the field of aviation.

I suppose if there were more fatalities before successful flight, you'd give them Darwin Awards then tell them to stick to hot air balloons for another decade?

There was no established tradition of powered, fixed-wing aviation at the time of the Wright Brothers - they were pioneers, not noobs. But aviation is a fine example of a perilous human endeavor where innovation by beginners is heavily discouraged. Novice pilots today don't make up or innovate their own instruction regime or equipment use - they learn the basics in a very prescribed manner. There is an 'Experimental Aircraft Association' for experienced pilots who later do want to innovate, but again, the key word is 'experienced'.


(This post was edited by healyje on Jul 18, 2010, 12:40 PM)


healyje


Jul 18, 2010, 12:34 PM
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patto wrote:
I totally disagree. Climbing to me has always been about analysis and innovation.

I'd agree with regard to movement and internal attitudes and motivations for beginners - not equipment usage.

patto wrote:
Your plead here that beginners follow 'conventions' of climbing gear use ignores the fact that there is little common conventions in the sport. Furthermore some conventions are positively dangerous.

There have always been accepted norms and conventions of equipment going back to "Belaying the Leader", "Basic Rockcraft", and "Freedom of the Hills". None of the basic conventions of the sport are dangerous that I know of, but what is dangerous is these days is the overlay of a high-level of social and group activity on top of climbing and the resulting innattentiveness that often results. That, and when a bad habit infiltrates a group, it often spreads among them rapidly if someone experienced isn't there to nip it in the bud. But that's all a bit of a tangent off the essential point.

patto wrote:
Climbing to me has been about knowing your tools and applying them to the situation.

Here you get it exactly right - "knowing your tools" - that is the name of the game; but you do that by learning the basics and beginning best practices and sticking with them.


(This post was edited by healyje on Jul 18, 2010, 12:39 PM)


BobfartsII


Jul 18, 2010, 1:17 PM
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healyje wrote:

!!!PLEASE DON'T TRY TO REINVENT OR INNOVATE THE BASIC MECHANICS AND CONVENTIONS OF CLIMBING GEAR USE AS A BEGINNER!!!

You're all a bunch of know it all, good for nothin, fricken sissies!!!!
I can innovate all I want if I want to so take that!
If you don't believe me check out this photo of me cranking with YOUR mother cheering me on! Boooyah - she is just about to show me her tatas!
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bennydh


Jul 18, 2010, 1:47 PM
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Because of your word choice in the original post and the way in which you responded to me as well as others, I have to wonder if you completely understand the possible denotations of the word innovate.

Besides that, your post DEMANDS that beginners don't develop alternative ways of using current gear, then you reference leaps in the creation of new gear, which were not variations of the usage of old gear.

Are you ALL CAPS and OBNOXIOUSLY DEMANDING that beginners do not develop alternative ways of using current gear, exclusively; or are you telling them not to present new gear ideas as well.


-- An aside--
I'm also trying to understand why this would ever be sticky in a beginner thread. I understand encouraging beginners to learn a safe set of fundamentals, but a Mod could do a better job re-posting the OP so that it is neither negative nor inhibitive of fresh ideas.


healyje


Jul 18, 2010, 2:00 PM
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BOTH. Beginners should refrain from any form of equipment innovation and stick with learning how to climb safely with the gear available to them. If they keep climbing and log the requisite time and yardage over stone there will be plenty of time for innovation later.


bennydh


Jul 18, 2010, 2:26 PM
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healyje wrote:
Beginners should refrain from any form of equipment innovation and stick with learning how to climb safely with the gear available to them. If they keep climbing and log the requisite time and yardage over stone there will be plenty of time for innovation later.

That would have been a better Original Post.


mojomonkey


Jul 18, 2010, 3:58 PM
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gazoo9224 wrote:
btw:
for those who think i am only spamming.
this is me. and yes i've done this in one year of training.

Oh god, not this spam again.
Can someone ban this climbing beast and his obfuscated clickbank links already?


patto


Jul 18, 2010, 4:45 PM
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The consequences of mistakes in climbing are so severe and so direct that I DON'T blindly trust instruction. I don't care if it is written in freedom of the hills or that the experts recommend something. If I don't think that it is safe then I won't do it.

Climbing for me has never been about following instructions and conventions. However being taught and reading about what other people are doing certainly increases my knowledge rapidly giving the basics tools and methods to protect myself and my partner.

healyje wrote:
patto wrote:
I totally disagree. Climbing to me has always been about analysis and innovation.

I'd agree with regard to movement and internal attitudes and motivations for beginners - not equipment usage.

I wasn't referring to movement. I was referring to equipment usage. Trad climbers who DON'T think for themselves and don't analyse the risks are less likely to keep themselves safe.

Placing good protection often requires creativity, analysysis and innovation.

healyje wrote:
There have always been accepted norms and conventions of equipment going back to "Belaying the Leader", "Basic Rockcraft", and "Freedom of the Hills".
I have only heard of one of them. Also open your eyes to an entire world our there. US conventions differ greatly from Europe. Yet now many devices are being imported from Europe with European instructions.

healyje wrote:
None of the basic conventions of the sport are dangerous that I know of, but what is dangerous is these days is the overlay of a high-level of social and group activity on top of climbing and the resulting innattentiveness that often results.
I consider palm up non locked off belaying unecessarily risky. I consider that the culture of not wearing helmets in some groups is also risky (though I respect peoples right to choose).

I consider the blind usuage of autoblock prussiks to be dangerous too. A group I associate with considers autoblocks as best practice. Yet it almost got somebody killed because they didn't think. Giving a beginner a prussik while rappelling through a waterfall is not smart. Yet apparently that is convention in that group.


healyje


Jul 18, 2010, 8:21 PM
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patto wrote:
If I don't think that it is safe then I won't do it.

The people I am concerned about with this thread are not erring on the side of caution like you.

patto wrote:
Trad climbers who DON'T think for themselves and don't analyse the risks are less likely to keep themselves safe. Placing good protection often requires creativity, analysysis and innovation.

Beginning climbers aren't leading trad, they are learning the basics and, if trad, preferrably by seconding experienced leaders.

patto wrote:
Giving a beginner a prussik while rappelling through a waterfall is not smart.

Forget the prussik - having a beginner rappel through a waterfall is not smart.


(This post was edited by healyje on Jul 18, 2010, 8:30 PM)


zekeo


Jul 18, 2010, 9:53 PM
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I have to disagree with the OP.

I think it is much more important for beginners to think through why things work than just blindly follow existing practice. Part of the process of learning should include thinking creatively. Asking questions like "why not build a sport anchor with a PAS?" is evidence that the noob is ACTUALLY THINKING.

Hopefully the noob goes on the internet and asks about the idea before actually carrying it out. Getting a chance to hear from experienced climbers about why the idea is bad is a fantastic way of learning, and an important service that this forum provides. I've been lurking here for the last year or so, and as hard as it might be to believe, I've actually learned a lot--primarily from threads started by people with stupid questions!

If I get a fancy new reverso and wonder if it would be super handy for lead belaying in autoblock mode, that question reveals that I have a misunderstanding about how the device works, what is needed in a good lead belay, or both. It is much better to address the question than just going along and remaining ignorant.

To be clear, I'd be an idiot if I actually tried to carry out one of my ideas, but I should be encouraged to ask.


(This post was edited by zekeo on Jul 18, 2010, 10:17 PM)


healyje


Jul 18, 2010, 10:23 PM
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zekeo wrote:
I think it is much more important for beginners to think through why things work than just blindly follow existing practice.

No one is talking about 'not thinking'; beginners should definitely think about why things work the way they do and understand why a best practice is just that. No one is talking about 'blindly following' - what I am saying is beginners should learn best practices in gear use and not attempt to improve, innovate, or improvise alternatives to those best practices.

zekeo wrote:
Hopefully the noob goes on the internet and asks about the idea before actually carrying it out.

Again noobs shouldn't be innovating, let alone 'vetting' their alternate ideas on the internet.

zekeo wrote:
I've been lurking here for the last year or so, and as hard as it might be to believe, I've actually learned a lot--primarily from threads started by people with stupid questions!

There is nothing wrong with 'stupid' questions. Noobs with 'new' ways of doing things is another story.

zekeo wrote:
If I get a fancy new reverso and wonder if it would be super handy for lead belaying in autoblock mode, that question reveals that I have a misunderstanding about how the device works, what is needed in a good lead belay, or both. It is much better to address the question than just going along and remaining ignorant.

Hopefully a leader would immediate dispell such a notion. And 'wondering' is one thing, possibly going out and trying it is entirely another. But bottomline, if a noob hasn't encountered or read about a particular 'new' or 'clever' gear use they should probably just skip the thought and move on. Sure, you can ask here, but lately a lot of these 'ideas' have been getting too clever, fringy, and dangerous which is the reason for this thread.


(This post was edited by healyje on Jul 18, 2010, 10:25 PM)


zekeo


Jul 18, 2010, 10:31 PM
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Re: [healyje] BEGINNERS: INNOVATION - PLEASE READ... [In reply to]
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I guess I agree all the way up to where you say that the noob should "skip that thought and move on." If a noob comes up with an idea and doesn't understand why it's a bad one, that reveals that they are laking some important piece of information. Rather than moving on, they should examine their idea from all sides, see if they can see why it's bad, and if they can't I hope they will find more experienced people, either in person or here, to fill in the gap. Just moving on could potentially mean that there's a ongoing gap in understanding that could prove dangerous over the long run.


davidnn5


Jul 18, 2010, 10:59 PM
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Re: [zekeo] BEGINNERS: INNOVATION - PLEASE READ... [In reply to]
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Have to agree with others concerned about the tone. "Do as I say, not as I do" is a red rag to a bull for most adults and probably just gives people more incentive to ignore the message.

Unless you're going to write out the exhaustive list of 'accepted practices' (and keep it up to date) the whole argument is a bit of a furphy.

I suspect by this stage you realise what a "disgruntled Dad" tone you took and how effective it's likely to be.

In other words, roll on the questions and dumb suggestions. Frankly, better to shoot down an attempt at innovation than to hear about someone getting hurt because they were too scared of the Internet meanies to ask and went ahead and did it anyway.


healyje


Jul 19, 2010, 3:11 AM
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Re: [davidnn5] BEGINNERS: INNOVATION - PLEASE READ... [In reply to]
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davidnn5 & zekeo wrote:
Have to agree with others concerned about the tone.

My tone is due to a bit of alarm over a series of posts over the past several months. These posts haven't been about people 'asking dumb questions', they haven't been about double-checking that their understanding about some usage or practice is correct, etc. No, quite the contrary, these posts have been by beginners who are explicitly attempting to 'innovate', come up with alternative uses, or being 'clever' about gear in one way or another. The tone is because I wasn't interested in pandering or trying to moderate / waterdown my 'tone', because then the message would just wash off people's back without so much as a thought.

Sorry, but this type of 'innovation' and 'cleverness' around equipment use is just flat out inappropriate for beginners. It's again the type of thinking that is actively discouraged in aviation, scuba diving, and skydiving among other similar technical activities. It's a real Darwin activity in climbing where there are already enough ways to die without thinking up new ones.

Again, beginners should not attempt to 'innovate' or get 'clever' with gear - particularly any form of belay device. In the end it boils down to an old Philly street saying:

In reply to:
Fuck around, fuck around - lay around and bleed...


(This post was edited by healyje on Jul 19, 2010, 3:17 AM)


billl7


Jul 19, 2010, 6:48 AM
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Re: [zekeo] BEGINNERS: INNOVATION - PLEASE READ... [In reply to]
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This is worth emphasizing ...

In reply to:
Fuck around, fuck around - lay around and bleed...

One doesn't have to walk at the edge for very long before lack of knowledge and experience ends it.


shoo


Jul 19, 2010, 6:54 AM
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Re: [healyje] BEGINNERS: INNOVATION - PLEASE READ... [In reply to]
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While I generally agree with your basic idea, I would like to make a small change.

It just as, if not more, important that new climbers understand WHY to do or not to do something as to memorize what to do or not to do.

One important benefit to beginners trying to innovate is that it often leads to this sort of understanding. When the noob's idea inevitably doesn't work, a more experienced climber can explain why not to do it that way, and the noob gains some good knowledge as a result.

There are relatively few absolutes in climbing, and things change rapidly. Instead of shunning all attempts at innovation, I think we should shun unmonitored attempts at innovation.


adatesman


Jul 21, 2010, 1:25 PM
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. [In reply to]
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(This post was edited by adatesman on Aug 14, 2010, 6:27 PM)


airscape


Jul 22, 2010, 8:18 AM
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Re: [adatesman] BEGINNERS: INNOVATION - PLEASE READ... [In reply to]
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adatesman wrote:
While I agree with pretty much everything in the OP, I can't help but provide a shorter version:

healyje wrote:
[image]http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/images/smilies/codger.gif[/image]

WinkSmile

Laugh


ClimbSoHigh


Nov 15, 2010, 11:20 AM
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Re: [airscape] BEGINNERS: INNOVATION - PLEASE READ... [In reply to]
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I have been inovating since the first day I started climbing and have already stumbled apon great success. My best inovation to date is lighten up the load so climbing is not so heavy (heavier gear means climbing is more dangerous). So I went into my dads workshop, and just started drilling out all that extra metal in my gear which has substantially lightened my load. The weight of my belay device I cut in half!!!11! I just filed down the sharp edges and the gear still looks plenty strong and is lighter than ever. No need to waste money on the expensive lighter gear when I can buy heavier gear and machine them out myself for free. My question is to see if anyone knows how many holes are too many, and if I should drill less holes in my slings than biners? I have also found that the "knockoffs" online hold my body weight just fine so you can save even more by getting the look-a-likes and drill them out to further save on wight and cash. Hell they are made with the same metals in the same molds so the only difference is paying for that CE stamp. And everyone knows that stupid CE stamp only stands for "Considerably Expensive" anyways...






So that my attempt to contribute to this Troll thread... I tried so hard but it is tougher than I thought it would be!!!!!oneoneone!

edited to strike out my work. If you are a total N00b, DO NOT MODIFY YOUR GEAR!


(This post was edited by ClimbSoHigh on Nov 18, 2010, 9:30 AM)


ClimbSoHigh


Nov 15, 2010, 11:24 AM
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Re: [ClimbSoHigh] BEGINNERS: INNOVATION - PLEASE READ... [In reply to]
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So I just realized that I migrated from a trolling thread to this one, but after thnking so hard for 10 min, I'll just leave it here. Cool.


spikeddem


Nov 15, 2010, 11:34 AM
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Re: [ClimbSoHigh] BEGINNERS: INNOVATION - PLEASE READ... [In reply to]
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ClimbSoHigh wrote:
I have been inovating since the first day I started climbing and have already stumbled apon great success. My best inovation to date is lighten up the load so climbing is not so heavy (heavier gear means climbing is more dangerous). So I went into my dads workshop, and just started drilling out all that extra metal in my gear which has substantially lightened my load. The weight of my belay device I cut in half!!!11! I just filed down the sharp edges and the gear still looks plenty strong and is lighter than ever. No need to waste money on the expensive lighter gear when I can buy heavier gear and machine them out myself for free. My question is to see if anyone knows how many holes are too many, and if I should drill less holes in my slings than biners? I have also found that the "knockoffs" online hold my body weight just fine so you can save even more by getting the look-a-likes and drill them out to further save on wight and cash. Hell they are made with the same metals in the same molds so the only difference is paying for that CE stamp. And everyone knows that stupid CE stamp only stands for "Considerably Expensive" anyways...






So that my attempt to contribute to this Troll thread... I tried so hard but it is tougher than I thought it would be!!!!!oneoneone!

ClimbSoHigh wrote:
So I just realized that I migrated from a trolling thread to this one, but after thnking so hard for 10 min, I'll just leave it here. Cool

It is local ethic to not post comments in the Beginners forum that are dangerous if taken seriously--regardless of how obvious you think your sarcasm is.


ClimbSoHigh


Nov 18, 2010, 9:27 AM
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Re: [spikeddem] BEGINNERS: INNOVATION - PLEASE READ... [In reply to]
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My bad, I agree it was not the best idea to leave since this is a beginenrs thread, but I was very proud of my Troll. Figured if I mentioned it in the post people would not take it seriously, but what if they had no Idea what a Troll was (troll wall? http://www.alpinist.com/...-wall-route-line.jpg) Being new to trolling, I was proud of my work, and could not bring myself to delete it. I think I will amend my post per your quote. In retrospect, your right that my blatant sarcasm could be missed by some, and I don't want that. Damn ethics...


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