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BEGINNERS: INNOVATION - PLEASE READ...
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bennydh


Jul 18, 2010, 2:26 PM
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Re: [healyje] BEGINNERS: INNOVATION - PLEASE READ... [In reply to]
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healyje wrote:
Beginners should refrain from any form of equipment innovation and stick with learning how to climb safely with the gear available to them. If they keep climbing and log the requisite time and yardage over stone there will be plenty of time for innovation later.

That would have been a better Original Post.


mojomonkey


Jul 18, 2010, 3:58 PM
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Re: [gazoo9224] BEGINNERS: INNOVATION - PLEASE READ... [In reply to]
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gazoo9224 wrote:
btw:
for those who think i am only spamming.
this is me. and yes i've done this in one year of training.

Oh god, not this spam again.
Can someone ban this climbing beast and his obfuscated clickbank links already?


patto


Jul 18, 2010, 4:45 PM
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Re: [healyje] BEGINNERS: INNOVATION - PLEASE READ... [In reply to]
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The consequences of mistakes in climbing are so severe and so direct that I DON'T blindly trust instruction. I don't care if it is written in freedom of the hills or that the experts recommend something. If I don't think that it is safe then I won't do it.

Climbing for me has never been about following instructions and conventions. However being taught and reading about what other people are doing certainly increases my knowledge rapidly giving the basics tools and methods to protect myself and my partner.

healyje wrote:
patto wrote:
I totally disagree. Climbing to me has always been about analysis and innovation.

I'd agree with regard to movement and internal attitudes and motivations for beginners - not equipment usage.

I wasn't referring to movement. I was referring to equipment usage. Trad climbers who DON'T think for themselves and don't analyse the risks are less likely to keep themselves safe.

Placing good protection often requires creativity, analysysis and innovation.

healyje wrote:
There have always been accepted norms and conventions of equipment going back to "Belaying the Leader", "Basic Rockcraft", and "Freedom of the Hills".
I have only heard of one of them. Also open your eyes to an entire world our there. US conventions differ greatly from Europe. Yet now many devices are being imported from Europe with European instructions.

healyje wrote:
None of the basic conventions of the sport are dangerous that I know of, but what is dangerous is these days is the overlay of a high-level of social and group activity on top of climbing and the resulting innattentiveness that often results.
I consider palm up non locked off belaying unecessarily risky. I consider that the culture of not wearing helmets in some groups is also risky (though I respect peoples right to choose).

I consider the blind usuage of autoblock prussiks to be dangerous too. A group I associate with considers autoblocks as best practice. Yet it almost got somebody killed because they didn't think. Giving a beginner a prussik while rappelling through a waterfall is not smart. Yet apparently that is convention in that group.


healyje


Jul 18, 2010, 8:21 PM
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Re: [patto] BEGINNERS: INNOVATION - PLEASE READ... [In reply to]
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patto wrote:
If I don't think that it is safe then I won't do it.

The people I am concerned about with this thread are not erring on the side of caution like you.

patto wrote:
Trad climbers who DON'T think for themselves and don't analyse the risks are less likely to keep themselves safe. Placing good protection often requires creativity, analysysis and innovation.

Beginning climbers aren't leading trad, they are learning the basics and, if trad, preferrably by seconding experienced leaders.

patto wrote:
Giving a beginner a prussik while rappelling through a waterfall is not smart.

Forget the prussik - having a beginner rappel through a waterfall is not smart.


(This post was edited by healyje on Jul 18, 2010, 8:30 PM)


zekeo


Jul 18, 2010, 9:53 PM
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Re: [patto] BEGINNERS: INNOVATION - PLEASE READ... [In reply to]
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I have to disagree with the OP.

I think it is much more important for beginners to think through why things work than just blindly follow existing practice. Part of the process of learning should include thinking creatively. Asking questions like "why not build a sport anchor with a PAS?" is evidence that the noob is ACTUALLY THINKING.

Hopefully the noob goes on the internet and asks about the idea before actually carrying it out. Getting a chance to hear from experienced climbers about why the idea is bad is a fantastic way of learning, and an important service that this forum provides. I've been lurking here for the last year or so, and as hard as it might be to believe, I've actually learned a lot--primarily from threads started by people with stupid questions!

If I get a fancy new reverso and wonder if it would be super handy for lead belaying in autoblock mode, that question reveals that I have a misunderstanding about how the device works, what is needed in a good lead belay, or both. It is much better to address the question than just going along and remaining ignorant.

To be clear, I'd be an idiot if I actually tried to carry out one of my ideas, but I should be encouraged to ask.


(This post was edited by zekeo on Jul 18, 2010, 10:17 PM)


healyje


Jul 18, 2010, 10:23 PM
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Re: [zekeo] BEGINNERS: INNOVATION - PLEASE READ... [In reply to]
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zekeo wrote:
I think it is much more important for beginners to think through why things work than just blindly follow existing practice.

No one is talking about 'not thinking'; beginners should definitely think about why things work the way they do and understand why a best practice is just that. No one is talking about 'blindly following' - what I am saying is beginners should learn best practices in gear use and not attempt to improve, innovate, or improvise alternatives to those best practices.

zekeo wrote:
Hopefully the noob goes on the internet and asks about the idea before actually carrying it out.

Again noobs shouldn't be innovating, let alone 'vetting' their alternate ideas on the internet.

zekeo wrote:
I've been lurking here for the last year or so, and as hard as it might be to believe, I've actually learned a lot--primarily from threads started by people with stupid questions!

There is nothing wrong with 'stupid' questions. Noobs with 'new' ways of doing things is another story.

zekeo wrote:
If I get a fancy new reverso and wonder if it would be super handy for lead belaying in autoblock mode, that question reveals that I have a misunderstanding about how the device works, what is needed in a good lead belay, or both. It is much better to address the question than just going along and remaining ignorant.

Hopefully a leader would immediate dispell such a notion. And 'wondering' is one thing, possibly going out and trying it is entirely another. But bottomline, if a noob hasn't encountered or read about a particular 'new' or 'clever' gear use they should probably just skip the thought and move on. Sure, you can ask here, but lately a lot of these 'ideas' have been getting too clever, fringy, and dangerous which is the reason for this thread.


(This post was edited by healyje on Jul 18, 2010, 10:25 PM)


zekeo


Jul 18, 2010, 10:31 PM
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Re: [healyje] BEGINNERS: INNOVATION - PLEASE READ... [In reply to]
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I guess I agree all the way up to where you say that the noob should "skip that thought and move on." If a noob comes up with an idea and doesn't understand why it's a bad one, that reveals that they are laking some important piece of information. Rather than moving on, they should examine their idea from all sides, see if they can see why it's bad, and if they can't I hope they will find more experienced people, either in person or here, to fill in the gap. Just moving on could potentially mean that there's a ongoing gap in understanding that could prove dangerous over the long run.


davidnn5


Jul 18, 2010, 10:59 PM
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Re: [zekeo] BEGINNERS: INNOVATION - PLEASE READ... [In reply to]
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Have to agree with others concerned about the tone. "Do as I say, not as I do" is a red rag to a bull for most adults and probably just gives people more incentive to ignore the message.

Unless you're going to write out the exhaustive list of 'accepted practices' (and keep it up to date) the whole argument is a bit of a furphy.

I suspect by this stage you realise what a "disgruntled Dad" tone you took and how effective it's likely to be.

In other words, roll on the questions and dumb suggestions. Frankly, better to shoot down an attempt at innovation than to hear about someone getting hurt because they were too scared of the Internet meanies to ask and went ahead and did it anyway.


healyje


Jul 19, 2010, 3:11 AM
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Re: [davidnn5] BEGINNERS: INNOVATION - PLEASE READ... [In reply to]
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davidnn5 & zekeo wrote:
Have to agree with others concerned about the tone.

My tone is due to a bit of alarm over a series of posts over the past several months. These posts haven't been about people 'asking dumb questions', they haven't been about double-checking that their understanding about some usage or practice is correct, etc. No, quite the contrary, these posts have been by beginners who are explicitly attempting to 'innovate', come up with alternative uses, or being 'clever' about gear in one way or another. The tone is because I wasn't interested in pandering or trying to moderate / waterdown my 'tone', because then the message would just wash off people's back without so much as a thought.

Sorry, but this type of 'innovation' and 'cleverness' around equipment use is just flat out inappropriate for beginners. It's again the type of thinking that is actively discouraged in aviation, scuba diving, and skydiving among other similar technical activities. It's a real Darwin activity in climbing where there are already enough ways to die without thinking up new ones.

Again, beginners should not attempt to 'innovate' or get 'clever' with gear - particularly any form of belay device. In the end it boils down to an old Philly street saying:

In reply to:
Fuck around, fuck around - lay around and bleed...


(This post was edited by healyje on Jul 19, 2010, 3:17 AM)


billl7


Jul 19, 2010, 6:48 AM
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Re: [zekeo] BEGINNERS: INNOVATION - PLEASE READ... [In reply to]
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This is worth emphasizing ...

In reply to:
Fuck around, fuck around - lay around and bleed...

One doesn't have to walk at the edge for very long before lack of knowledge and experience ends it.


shoo


Jul 19, 2010, 6:54 AM
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Re: [healyje] BEGINNERS: INNOVATION - PLEASE READ... [In reply to]
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While I generally agree with your basic idea, I would like to make a small change.

It just as, if not more, important that new climbers understand WHY to do or not to do something as to memorize what to do or not to do.

One important benefit to beginners trying to innovate is that it often leads to this sort of understanding. When the noob's idea inevitably doesn't work, a more experienced climber can explain why not to do it that way, and the noob gains some good knowledge as a result.

There are relatively few absolutes in climbing, and things change rapidly. Instead of shunning all attempts at innovation, I think we should shun unmonitored attempts at innovation.


adatesman


Jul 21, 2010, 1:25 PM
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. [In reply to]
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(This post was edited by adatesman on Aug 14, 2010, 6:27 PM)


airscape


Jul 22, 2010, 8:18 AM
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Re: [adatesman] BEGINNERS: INNOVATION - PLEASE READ... [In reply to]
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adatesman wrote:
While I agree with pretty much everything in the OP, I can't help but provide a shorter version:

healyje wrote:
[image]http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/images/smilies/codger.gif[/image]

WinkSmile

Laugh


ClimbSoHigh


Nov 15, 2010, 11:20 AM
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Re: [airscape] BEGINNERS: INNOVATION - PLEASE READ... [In reply to]
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I have been inovating since the first day I started climbing and have already stumbled apon great success. My best inovation to date is lighten up the load so climbing is not so heavy (heavier gear means climbing is more dangerous). So I went into my dads workshop, and just started drilling out all that extra metal in my gear which has substantially lightened my load. The weight of my belay device I cut in half!!!11! I just filed down the sharp edges and the gear still looks plenty strong and is lighter than ever. No need to waste money on the expensive lighter gear when I can buy heavier gear and machine them out myself for free. My question is to see if anyone knows how many holes are too many, and if I should drill less holes in my slings than biners? I have also found that the "knockoffs" online hold my body weight just fine so you can save even more by getting the look-a-likes and drill them out to further save on wight and cash. Hell they are made with the same metals in the same molds so the only difference is paying for that CE stamp. And everyone knows that stupid CE stamp only stands for "Considerably Expensive" anyways...






So that my attempt to contribute to this Troll thread... I tried so hard but it is tougher than I thought it would be!!!!!oneoneone!

edited to strike out my work. If you are a total N00b, DO NOT MODIFY YOUR GEAR!


(This post was edited by ClimbSoHigh on Nov 18, 2010, 9:30 AM)


ClimbSoHigh


Nov 15, 2010, 11:24 AM
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Re: [ClimbSoHigh] BEGINNERS: INNOVATION - PLEASE READ... [In reply to]
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So I just realized that I migrated from a trolling thread to this one, but after thnking so hard for 10 min, I'll just leave it here. Cool.


spikeddem


Nov 15, 2010, 11:34 AM
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Re: [ClimbSoHigh] BEGINNERS: INNOVATION - PLEASE READ... [In reply to]
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ClimbSoHigh wrote:
I have been inovating since the first day I started climbing and have already stumbled apon great success. My best inovation to date is lighten up the load so climbing is not so heavy (heavier gear means climbing is more dangerous). So I went into my dads workshop, and just started drilling out all that extra metal in my gear which has substantially lightened my load. The weight of my belay device I cut in half!!!11! I just filed down the sharp edges and the gear still looks plenty strong and is lighter than ever. No need to waste money on the expensive lighter gear when I can buy heavier gear and machine them out myself for free. My question is to see if anyone knows how many holes are too many, and if I should drill less holes in my slings than biners? I have also found that the "knockoffs" online hold my body weight just fine so you can save even more by getting the look-a-likes and drill them out to further save on wight and cash. Hell they are made with the same metals in the same molds so the only difference is paying for that CE stamp. And everyone knows that stupid CE stamp only stands for "Considerably Expensive" anyways...






So that my attempt to contribute to this Troll thread... I tried so hard but it is tougher than I thought it would be!!!!!oneoneone!

ClimbSoHigh wrote:
So I just realized that I migrated from a trolling thread to this one, but after thnking so hard for 10 min, I'll just leave it here. Cool

It is local ethic to not post comments in the Beginners forum that are dangerous if taken seriously--regardless of how obvious you think your sarcasm is.


ClimbSoHigh


Nov 18, 2010, 9:27 AM
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Re: [spikeddem] BEGINNERS: INNOVATION - PLEASE READ... [In reply to]
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My bad, I agree it was not the best idea to leave since this is a beginenrs thread, but I was very proud of my Troll. Figured if I mentioned it in the post people would not take it seriously, but what if they had no Idea what a Troll was (troll wall? http://www.alpinist.com/...-wall-route-line.jpg) Being new to trolling, I was proud of my work, and could not bring myself to delete it. I think I will amend my post per your quote. In retrospect, your right that my blatant sarcasm could be missed by some, and I don't want that. Damn ethics...

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