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healyje
Jul 17, 2010, 8:40 AM
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Innovation is a great thing, and strides have been made in rock climbing because of it. And while I have no doubt all you beginners are bright folks and some of you are even true geniuses and rocket scientists in your own right - but...
!!!PLEASE DON'T TRY TO REINVENT OR INNOVATE THE BASIC MECHANICS AND CONVENTIONS OF CLIMBING GEAR USE AS A BEGINNER!!!
Do yourself, everyone around you, and all of us here a favor and just focus on the basics of existing best practices in rock climbing as they currently exist. This is a sport where you want to drill those home and hone them down as quickly and reliably as possible and then move on to developing a solid foundation of the full range of today's best practices.
Climbing is not a sport to attempt to be 'clever' at, to 'innovate', or to develop alternative ways of using our gear as a beginner. We're seeing way too much of that of late on RC and it's beginning to be a worrisome trend that will eventually cost a life or two. Avoid being a candidate for this year's Darwin Awards and just learn the traditional best practices of the sport.
Do that for about 5-10 years of extensive yardage and experience on stone and then you can think about it. But even then most of us don't stray far from what we all agree works - leaps like clean pro, cams, and grigris do happen - but they are rare exceptions; most innovation in the sport comes in slow, incremental tweaks.
There is little or nothing to be gained by being 'clever' as a beginner and much to lose. So please just focus on learning the basics and mastering the best practices as they are until you are well along in the sport.
(This post was edited by healyje on Jul 17, 2010, 9:10 AM)
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airscape
Jul 17, 2010, 9:31 AM
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Yup.
But innovative people will not wait.
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rgold
Jul 17, 2010, 12:57 PM
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Wisdom for a guy who's been around the block a few times and who, having acquired the requisite experience, has also modified more equipment (i.e. has meaningfully innovated) than most of the rest of us combined.
Learn the time-tested ways thoroughly before you start making up your own solutions. Experience here suggests that home-grown techniques concocted by people of modest experience are almost always seriously flawed.
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socalclimber
Jul 17, 2010, 1:40 PM
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Thumbs up for this one!
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sittingduck
Jul 17, 2010, 3:18 PM
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The reason climbers try to "invent the wheel" may be that different authorities have different best practices.
You for instance, are saying that it is unfortunate that auto-block devices are the norm nowadays. Other authorities, like Petzl and BD to name a few, seems to think they are great best practices.
In the eye of the beginner it may look like no one knows the best practice. This may lead to confusion, and the logical assumption that the best practice is yet to be invented.
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jt512
Jul 17, 2010, 3:22 PM
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sittingduck wrote: The reason climbers try to "invent the wheel" may be that different authorities have different best practices. You for instance, are saying that it is unfortunate that auto-block devices are the norm nowadays. Other authorities, like Petzl and BD to name a few, seems to think they are great best practices. In the eye of the beginner it may look like no one knows the best practice. This may lead to confusion, and the logical assumption that the best practice is yet to be invented.
That is all completely irrelevant. The fact there may be different accepted ways of doing something in no way justifies the attitude that, as a beginner, you can or should try to develop your own "improvements."
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jul 17, 2010, 3:23 PM)
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sittingduck
Jul 17, 2010, 3:59 PM
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jt512 wrote: sittingduck wrote: The reason climbers try to "invent the wheel" may be that different authorities have different best practices. You for instance, are saying that it is unfortunate that auto-block devices are the norm nowadays. Other authorities, like Petzl and BD to name a few, seems to think they are great best practices. In the eye of the beginner it may look like no one knows the best practice. This may lead to confusion, and the logical assumption that the best practice is yet to be invented. That is all completely irrelevant. The fact there may be different accepted ways of doing something in no way justifies the attitude that, as a beginner, you can or should try to develop your own "improvements."
Come sit in my hand and let me tell you about the war.
I did not say that anything justifies the attitude towards developing your own "improvements".
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avalon420
Jul 17, 2010, 7:11 PM
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Thank you, that was very well articulated. MODS, COULD WE PLEASE STICKY THIS IN THE PROPER PLACES!!!!!!
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TarHeelEMT
Jul 17, 2010, 9:15 PM
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avalon420 wrote: Thank you, that was very well articulated. MODS, COULD WE PLEASE STICKY THIS IN THE PROPER PLACES!!!!!!
Yes, please.
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gazoo9224
Jul 18, 2010, 6:26 AM
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i think,to be truely innovative then all rules go out the door.
creativity recruires total freedom.
then if you have an idea present it to the community and they will separate the good from the idiotic.
if people think the same way they get the same results.
on the other hands the noobs have to respect the opinion of people who are doing this for decades.
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jh_angel
Jul 18, 2010, 6:38 AM
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sittingduck wrote: You for instance, are saying that it is unfortunate that auto-block devices are the norm nowadays. Other authorities, like Petzl and BD to name a few, seems to think they are great best practices.
Yes, but they only recommend them after first learning and mastering the usage of standard tube style devices like the basic ATC. Every auto locking/blocking device I've seen is listed as an advanced belay device in it's manual. They are fantastic to have around, but only after you've got the basics down cold.
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Greggle
Jul 18, 2010, 6:40 AM
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gazoo9224 wrote: i think,to be truely innovative then all rules go out the door. creativity recruires total freedom. then if you have an idea present it to the community and they will separate the good from the idiotic. if people think the same way they get the same results. on the other hands the noobs have to respect the opinion of people who are doing this for decades.
Gee whiz! The nine or so posts you've made in the last half-hour have really convinced me that you've mended your ways as a blatant spammer.
Moving your spam link to your sig' was nothing short of brilliant...
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majid_sabet
Jul 18, 2010, 7:04 AM
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thanks to internet for accelerating this innovation process cause noobs and pros can now easily share their thoughts with speed of sound and before you know it, sh* already is spinning of the fan.
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bennydh
Jul 18, 2010, 8:06 AM
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In reply to: sh* already is spinning of the fan.
Oh Majid. I like it, good try.
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bennydh
Jul 18, 2010, 8:24 AM
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The Wright brothers were innovative noobs in the field of aviation.
I suppose if there were more fatalities before successful flight, you'd give them Darwin Awards then tell them to stick to hot air balloons for another decade?
I'm mostly playing devils advocate because I don't particularly like your matter-de-facto style of posts, even if I partially agree with this one.
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gazoo9224
Jul 18, 2010, 11:27 AM
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i'm not saying they should do anything dangerous or stupid. the noobs should discuss their plans with others who know what they are talking about, but even they should have the liberty of thinking outside the box. in fact i think they probably will think outside the box better because they are not restricted by years of conditionning.
who are we to say that someone is only allowed to innovate after x number of years of experience.
no i think we should encourage the noobs for doing so, as well should we watch them and teach them the basics.
there is nothing more important then putting milk in to babies.
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patto
Jul 18, 2010, 11:44 AM
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I totally disagree. Climbing to me has always been about analysis and innovation.
Your plead here that beginners follow 'conventions' of climbing gear use ignores the fact that there is little common conventions in the sport. Furthermore some conventions are positively dangerous.
Climbing to me has been about knowing your tools and applying them to the situation.
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gazoo9224
Jul 18, 2010, 12:36 PM
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nono. i am saying they shouldn't follow too much convention. hey should try to push the envelope, but do it under a watchfull eye off an experienced climber.
wether of not that there is o lot of or a lack of convention in climbing is a discussion on its own :-)
grtz
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johnwesely
Jul 18, 2010, 1:50 PM
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gazoo9224 wrote: btw: for those who think i am only spamming. this is me. and yes i've done this in one year of training.
Now you are spamming and spraying. Strong work. I am super proud of your plastic pulling though. Is your mother?
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healyje
Jul 18, 2010, 7:24 PM
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bennydh wrote: The Wright brothers were innovative noobs in the field of aviation. I suppose if there were more fatalities before successful flight, you'd give them Darwin Awards then tell them to stick to hot air balloons for another decade?
There was no established tradition of powered, fixed-wing aviation at the time of the Wright Brothers - they were pioneers, not noobs. But aviation is a fine example of a perilous human endeavor where innovation by beginners is heavily discouraged. Novice pilots today don't make up or innovate their own instruction regime or equipment use - they learn the basics in a very prescribed manner. There is an 'Experimental Aircraft Association' for experienced pilots who later do want to innovate, but again, the key word is 'experienced'.
(This post was edited by healyje on Jul 18, 2010, 7:40 PM)
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healyje
Jul 18, 2010, 7:34 PM
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patto wrote: I totally disagree. Climbing to me has always been about analysis and innovation.
I'd agree with regard to movement and internal attitudes and motivations for beginners - not equipment usage.
patto wrote: Your plead here that beginners follow 'conventions' of climbing gear use ignores the fact that there is little common conventions in the sport. Furthermore some conventions are positively dangerous.
There have always been accepted norms and conventions of equipment going back to "Belaying the Leader", "Basic Rockcraft", and "Freedom of the Hills". None of the basic conventions of the sport are dangerous that I know of, but what is dangerous is these days is the overlay of a high-level of social and group activity on top of climbing and the resulting innattentiveness that often results. That, and when a bad habit infiltrates a group, it often spreads among them rapidly if someone experienced isn't there to nip it in the bud. But that's all a bit of a tangent off the essential point.
patto wrote: Climbing to me has been about knowing your tools and applying them to the situation.
Here you get it exactly right - "knowing your tools" - that is the name of the game; but you do that by learning the basics and beginning best practices and sticking with them.
(This post was edited by healyje on Jul 18, 2010, 7:39 PM)
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bennydh
Jul 18, 2010, 8:47 PM
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Because of your word choice in the original post and the way in which you responded to me as well as others, I have to wonder if you completely understand the possible denotations of the word innovate.
Besides that, your post DEMANDS that beginners don't develop alternative ways of using current gear, then you reference leaps in the creation of new gear, which were not variations of the usage of old gear.
Are you ALL CAPS and OBNOXIOUSLY DEMANDING that beginners do not develop alternative ways of using current gear, exclusively; or are you telling them not to present new gear ideas as well.
-- An aside--
I'm also trying to understand why this would ever be sticky in a beginner thread. I understand encouraging beginners to learn a safe set of fundamentals, but a Mod could do a better job re-posting the OP so that it is neither negative nor inhibitive of fresh ideas.
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healyje
Jul 18, 2010, 9:00 PM
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BOTH. Beginners should refrain from any form of equipment innovation and stick with learning how to climb safely with the gear available to them. If they keep climbing and log the requisite time and yardage over stone there will be plenty of time for innovation later.
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