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Good ways to setup hanging belay
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cal32


Aug 27, 2010, 6:46 AM
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Good ways to setup hanging belay
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Never actually tried sport multi before just trad, and it's almost always on a ledge.

What are some typical ways to setup the hanging belay while keeping things organized, rope tidy, and bolts not too crowded?

Something like at end of lead, clip into one bolt with sling, throw carabiner in other bolt attach with rope and clove. Throw up two draws and basically top rope second from your harness off the draws?

Seems like not much room for the second to clip when he arrives, though he wouldn't be there long if leading next pitch which is simplest.

Is it easiest to try and have the draws at about chest level, then flake the rope over the sling that anchors you to the bolt?

thank you


Rudmin


Aug 27, 2010, 7:28 AM
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Re: [cal32] Good ways to setup hanging belay [In reply to]
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I guess it always depends.

But what I would do is first clip the rope to one anchor with a clove hitch and clip a tether to the other anchor and call off belay. Next, toss a pretied sliding x with limiter knots over top of that. If there are no chains, I would put the sliding x on first, and clip my rope and tether to the locking biners. Then pull up all of the rope and lay it neatly over the rope or tether, clip the climber to a reverso and tell them they are on belay. Start belaying. When the second arrives, pass all of the draws or rack or whatever to them, take their belay device to put them on belay with it, then let them remove the reverso and start climbing.

What helps to keep it organized is to think of the anchor in layers. I always picture my personal anchors on the bottom, and make sure they don't lay on top of anything. Then comes the master point, then the rope, then the climber. I also try to stagger things from left to right, or right to left as well as bottom to top.


spikeddem


Aug 27, 2010, 10:02 AM
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Re: [cal32] Good ways to setup hanging belay [In reply to]
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cal32 wrote:
Never actually tried sport multi before just trad, and it's almost always on a ledge.

What are some typical ways to setup the hanging belay while keeping things organized, rope tidy, and bolts not too crowded?

Something like at end of lead, clip into one bolt with sling, throw carabiner in other bolt attach with rope and clove. Throw up two draws and basically top rope second from your harness off the draws?

Seems like not much room for the second to clip when he arrives, though he wouldn't be there long if leading next pitch which is simplest.

Is it easiest to try and have the draws at about chest level, then flake the rope over the sling that anchors you to the bolt?

thank you

This part could be heinous!


ryanb


Aug 27, 2010, 11:22 AM
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1) throw up a draw, clip it and hang (optional depending on how good your stance is)

2) Take a doubled coradlet and "equalize" the two bolts leaving a burly HMS locker as your single power point.

3) Clip into this with your personal anchor sling and another locker clove hitched to the rope for redundancy. Depending on your comfort level, clip one of those directly to the cordalet for even more redundancy but fiddly belay changeovers (you will have to unweight the anchor to unclip it).

4) Adjust the cloved rope length to get in a comfortable position and take your shoes off. Edit: Anyone who has spent any amount of time doing hanging belays in a free climbing harness knows this step is crucial.

5) Clip your magic plate style device to the power point biner with another biner...make sure it is on the side where the rope will run the most free but don't stick the rope in it yet.

6) Pull up the tag line if you have one and stack it over your tether so it will run free.

7) Pull the lead rope up and lay it back and forth over your sling/cloved rope stacking it so that it will run free for the next lead belay.

7) When you get close to running out of rope put the rope in the device, give a couple of jerks and yell on belay. Your partner might not here you but will know you are at the belay because you pulled up the tag and gave the jerk.


(This post was edited by ryanb on Aug 27, 2010, 11:23 AM)


JAB


Aug 31, 2010, 5:06 AM
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Re: [ryanb] Good ways to setup hanging belay [In reply to]
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Another small thing is to position yourself right. If the next pitch starts off to the right, position yourself on the left hand side of the anchor, and vice versa. This way your second will be in the right position to start leading immediately when reaching the anchor.


(This post was edited by JAB on Aug 31, 2010, 5:06 AM)


spikeddem


Aug 31, 2010, 7:22 AM
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JAB wrote:
Another small thing is to position yourself right. If the next pitch starts off to the right, position yourself on the left hand side of the anchor, and vice versa. This way your second will be in the right position to start leading immediately when reaching the anchor.

How might one do this on a true hanging belay?


shimanilami


Aug 31, 2010, 8:22 AM
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spikeddem wrote:
JAB wrote:
Another small thing is to position yourself right. If the next pitch starts off to the right, position yourself on the left hand side of the anchor, and vice versa. This way your second will be in the right position to start leading immediately when reaching the anchor.

How might one do this on a true hanging belay?

First, the bolts need to be spaced apart. Next, you tether yourself into the far left or right bolt so that you're essentially hanging from it rather than from a power point somewhere in between. This leaves the other bolt free for the second to clip into.

I don't see the anchor setup being any different from a non-hanging belay, except that you don't have a ledge to use for self-positioning, so you have to use gravity as best as you can.


angeleyes


Aug 31, 2010, 1:49 PM
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shimanilami wrote:
I don't see the anchor setup being any different from a non-hanging belay, except that you don't have a ledge to use for self-positioning, so you have to use gravity as best as you can.

what about ways to avoid being in each others way when you're both at the hanging belay, w/o one person having to uncomfortably try to stay off to one side while the other climber sets up the rap and so on?


spikeddem


Aug 31, 2010, 2:09 PM
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Re: [angeleyes] Good ways to setup hanging belay [In reply to]
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angeleyes wrote:
shimanilami wrote:
I don't see the anchor setup being any different from a non-hanging belay, except that you don't have a ledge to use for self-positioning, so you have to use gravity as best as you can.

what about ways to avoid being in each others way when you're both at the hanging belay, w/o one person having to uncomfortably try to stay off to one side while the other climber sets up the rap and so on?

That's what the first paragraph that (s)he wrote addressed.

Personally, this is what I might see myself doing in a general situation: I'd put a quickdraw on each bolt, clip the bottom left carabiner (of the four carabiners with the two draws). Here if I am very pumped I can take. Once ready, I'd clove hitch the biner that I clipped, pull up a bit more slack and tie a fig8 on a bight and clip that into the top-right biner (my connection to the anchor is now redundant). After that I'd belay the second using a re-direct off the bottom right biner.

This avoids needing special equipment (daisy chain, pas, extra 2' slings). If I wanted a powerpoint, I could just tie a fig8 on a bight between my clove hitch (bottom left biner) and fig 8 (top right biner).

Once the climber arrives at the belay, they'll be sitting on the right biner, and I'll be sitting on the left biner. Seems about the best you could do for comfort given only bolts, draws, and a rope while you're at a hanging belay. It's not equalized, but it's redundant and extension should be minimal (and the rope is obviously dynamic) should one of the bolts fail. It sure seems to me that it is not possible to hang to one side AND be equalized on a hanging belay. If you want to split up the room at a hanging belay for comfort, you have to give up equalization. At least, that's how it seems to work in my head! Tongue Please correct me if I'm wrong, somebody.

Edit: That last bit assumes no gear other than rope, draws, and bolts. Also, it use as re-direct.

The side that you choose to start clipping stuff to while building your anchor would be determined by the side the other climber will be coming from while they're seconding, and which side they'll be going to once they're leading.


(This post was edited by spikeddem on Aug 31, 2010, 2:11 PM)


climbingaggie03


Aug 31, 2010, 2:57 PM
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So if I know that I have bolted belays, hanging or otherwise I usually will have a double length sling set up with two non lockers, one on either end, and limiting knots tied near the middle. I carry that over my shoulder with the biners clipped together.

When I get to the belay, if i'm comfortable with my stance and/or my last bolt/pro is not far below me, I grab the double length sling, clip 1 biner to each bolt, set up my sliding x, clove myself in with the climbing rope, and holler off belay.

from there, I pull any extra rope up, stack it on my tether, or coil it over my leg/foot; put my second on belay with my atc guide clipped to the same spot that my rope is clipped to the sliding X and holler on belay.

I like to hang with the bolts at eye level or higher, i think it makes it less awkward for belaying the second. Usually whoever is leading the next pitch will be belayed off of the harness of the person at the anchor and usually we are risking a factor 2 fall until the leader clips a bolt or puts in some gear. If the climbing looks insecure, or we're uncertain of how far away the first piece/bolt is, we'll clip a bolt of the anchor, mostly to make holding the potential almost factor 2 fall easier/less awkward (it's gonna suck if it happens no matter what but we do what we can when we think it's a possibility, but so far I've never had that fall happen)

I like not constructing the anchor from the rope because usually I lead in blocks so using the rope in the anchor is somewhere between incompatible and a real pain.

Hanging at the anchor is a bit awkward, but you're not there that long and I don't usually do long multipitch with people I don't know at least a little bit. also, kinda like when you're rappelling, you can paste your feet on the wall and lean away from each other.


bill413


Aug 31, 2010, 3:19 PM
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One of the advantages that spikeddem's setup has is that even though it uses the rope to attach into the anchor, it is equally easy for either climber to lead the next pitch.

Climber A: Clove in bottom of left draw; Fig. 8 on top of right draw.
Climber B: Clove in bottom of right draw; Fig. 8 on top of left draw.

Either climber can take off on the next pitch.
(If climber B is going to lead through, you could forgo the figure 8.)


(This post was edited by bill413 on Aug 31, 2010, 3:20 PM)


shimanilami


Aug 31, 2010, 10:21 PM
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angeleyes wrote:
shimanilami wrote:
I don't see the anchor setup being any different from a non-hanging belay, except that you don't have a ledge to use for self-positioning, so you have to use gravity as best as you can.

what about ways to avoid being in each others way when you're both at the hanging belay, w/o one person having to uncomfortably try to stay off to one side while the other climber sets up the rap and so on?

I don't know of any tricks for this, besides using a short sling and a long sling in order to lean to one side. At least you can set up your rap while separated. But eventually, on of you has to go to the middle.

This really sucks if both of you are riding pigs.


bearbreeder


Sep 7, 2010, 9:14 AM
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1. carry a 120cm sling, 1 big locker, and 2 locker/nonlocker with think profile

2. climb route

3. at time either ... a. clip into chains/bolt with yr daisy/pas ... b. put a draw in the bolt and clip it and ask for take if yr pumped

4. set up a sliding X with the sling and biners ... big locker on the bottom of course ... no need for limiter knots ... you are climbing on bomber bolts or should be ... i don't clip the chains

5. clove into big locker

6. bring partner up

7. if they are leading then they can just take off .... always put a draw in one of the bolts and clip it to prevent a FF2

8. if youre gonna lead again ... they just put a locker through the anchor and clove hitch to this ... you flip the rope stack over ... and they put you on belay ... put a draw through the bolt ... and start climbing

simple ... lol

you can use 2 draws if you forget the anchor material ... just fig 8 or clove the 2 draws you set up for belay ... this works if yr swapping leads ... if yr always leading though youll need to take off each knot/draw one at a time (youll be hanging from 1 unlocked point unless u use yr daisy too) as your partner sets up .... or anchor on the chains initially for yourself ... or hope the bolts are big enough for all your draws (4 alttogheter)

setting up a sliding x is much faster as your partner doesnt have to muk around setting up their own anchor with their draws ... they just clip in with their own locker and clove ... just remember that each person should have the slings and biners


(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Sep 7, 2010, 9:23 AM)


bearbreeder


Sep 7, 2010, 9:18 AM
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shimanilami wrote:
angeleyes wrote:
shimanilami wrote:
I don't see the anchor setup being any different from a non-hanging belay, except that you don't have a ledge to use for self-positioning, so you have to use gravity as best as you can.

what about ways to avoid being in each others way when you're both at the hanging belay, w/o one person having to uncomfortably try to stay off to one side while the other climber sets up the rap and so on?

I don't know of any tricks for this, besides using a short sling and a long sling in order to lean to one side. At least you can set up your rap while separated. But eventually, on of you has to go to the middle.

This really sucks if both of you are riding pigs.

put a draw at one of the bolts and run the line from yr harness to yr clove through there ... yr partner does the same to the other bolt ... when yr ready to start climbing both of you take off those draws so yr anchor is equalized ... on bomber bolts though it really wont matter


spikeddem


Sep 7, 2010, 12:16 PM
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bearbreeder wrote:
1. carry a 120cm sling, 1 big locker, and 2 locker/nonlocker with think profile

2. climb route

3. at time either ... a. clip into chains/bolt with yr daisy/pas ... b. put a draw in the bolt and clip it and ask for take if yr pumped

4. set up a sliding X with the sling and biners ... big locker on the bottom of course ... no need for limiter knots ... you are climbing on bomber bolts or should be ... i don't clip the chains

5. clove into big locker

6. bring partner up

7. if they are leading then they can just take off .... always put a draw in one of the bolts and clip it to prevent a FF2

8. if youre gonna lead again ... they just put a locker through the anchor and clove hitch to this ... you flip the rope stack over ... and they put you on belay ... put a draw through the bolt ... and start climbing

simple ... lol

you can use 2 draws if you forget the anchor material ... just fig 8 or clove the 2 draws you set up for belay ... this works if yr swapping leads ... if yr always leading though youll need to take off each knot/draw one at a time (youll be hanging from 1 unlocked point unless u use yr daisy too) as your partner sets up .... or anchor on the chains initially for yourself ... or hope the bolts are big enough for all your draws (4 alttogheter)

setting up a sliding x is much faster as your partner doesnt have to muk around setting up their own anchor with their draws ... they just clip in with their own locker and clove ... just remember that each person should have the slings and biners

The methods mentioned previously using just the rope and draws are simpler and require less special material (120 cm sling, random lockers). It's also more redundant (a single 120 cm sling is not redundant).

Moreover, you say that there is no need for limiter knots, because the bolts are bomber. If you clip two bolts, you assume there is a chance of one of them failing (ignoring the overkill equalization factor). Yet, you say there is no need to tie limiter knots whose sole functions are to help out when a bolt fails.

Why the discrepancy?


bearbreeder


Sep 7, 2010, 2:01 PM
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spikeddem wrote:

The methods mentioned previously using just the rope and draws are simpler and require less special material (120 cm sling, random lockers). It's also more redundant (a single 120 cm sling is not redundant).

Moreover, you say that there is no need for limiter knots, because the bolts are bomber. If you clip two bolts, you assume there is a chance of one of them failing (ignoring the overkill equalization factor). Yet, you say there is no need to tie limiter knots whose sole functions are to help out when a bolt fails.

Why the discrepancy?

the sliding X is not redundant only if the sling itself gets cut ... a single biner is not redundant ... but we use that for a belay ... a single rope is not redundant ... nor is the belay loop on your harness

the chances of any full strength part of your climbing system failing is basically zero ... which is why we dont all climb on double ropes

the chance of a bolt being rusted or being improperly put it is much greater than zero ... limiter knots are to limit the extention ...they actually reduce the strength of the sling to below full strength ... on 2 bolts the extention of a sliding X should not pull the other bolt ... if it does i recommend not climbing at all in that area ... lol

which is why we build our anchors of 2 bolts ...

a sliding X is faster to use unless your swapping leads all the time ... and it makes the belay a lot cleaner


(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Sep 7, 2010, 2:05 PM)


spikeddem


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I'll take this bit by bit.

bearbreeder wrote:
the sliding X is not redundant only if the sling itself gets cut ... a single biner is not redundant ... but we use that for a belay ... a single rope is not redundant ... nor is the belay loop on your harness

Nothing you listed except for "sliding x" (and, I suppose, a single rope) can be realistically cut by falling rock. At least the single rope method mentioned above offers a bit more protection or can if modified slightly.

In reply to:
the chances of any full strength part of your climbing system failing is basically zero ... which is why we dont all climb on double ropes

Failing under normal conditions, sure. Falling rock? You bet your ass a rope or a sling could get cut, especially under the tension of a hanging belay.

In reply to:
the chance of a bolt being rusted or being improperly put it is much greater than zero ... limiter knots are to limit the extention

I agree with you on the purpose of a limiter knot.

In reply to:
...they actually reduce the strength of the sling to below full strength ...

Yet, it is still plenty strong, so it does not matter.

In reply to:
on 2 bolts the extention of a sliding X should not pull the other bolt ... if it does i recommend not climbing at all in that area ... lol

Considering one of the two bolts just pulled, are you willing to bet your life (and your partner's life? or for that matter the life of anyone that takes your advice?) on your guess that, say, a factor two fall that just pulled out one bolt will not pull out the other one?

In reply to:
which is why we build our anchors of 2 bolts ...

I'm not arguing against using a minimum of two bolts for an anchor. I'm just asking why you think two bolts are necessary for the anchor while at the same time claiming that limiter knots are not necessary, citing the fact that the each individual bolt should be plenty strong.

In reply to:
a sliding X is faster to use unless your swapping leads all the time ... and it makes the belay a lot cleaner

I definitely disagree that it is either faster or cleaner given that someone was equally familiar with both methods.

Edit: You posted what I pasted right underneath this, and it seems to be where you are confused (at least when discussing the length of time the anchor takes). If you re-read what I and others have posted, you will see that it is not correct to say that the anchor must be taken down. With two draws there are four carabiners. This is plenty for two people to build two anchors without sharing sharing carabiners.

bearbreeder wrote:
you can use 2 draws if you forget the anchor material ... just fig 8 or clove the 2 draws you set up for belay ... this works if yr swapping leads ... if yr always leading though youll need to take off each knot/draw one at a time (youll be hanging from 1 unlocked point unless u use yr daisy too) as your partner sets up .... or anchor on the chains initially for yourself ... or hope the bolts are big enough for all your draws (4 alttogheter)

setting up a sliding x is much faster as your partner doesnt have to muk around setting up their own anchor with their draws ... they just clip in with their own locker and clove ... just remember that each person should have the slings and biners


(This post was edited by spikeddem on Sep 7, 2010, 3:29 PM)


bearbreeder


Sep 7, 2010, 4:12 PM
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So yr arguin that a sliding x is not acceptable on bolts? Lol

i think u need to take a basic anchor course .... The only real problem with a sliding x is the extention on trad gear

if theres rockfall its WAY more likely to cut a 60 m rope than a 1.2 m sling at the belay

not only is a proper anchor setup faster on 2 bolts where there are no chains ... It creates less of a cluster fcuk ... And is more flexible

you can use 2 draws ... But how are you guys going to clip 2 bolts with 4 draws unless the bolt holea are alwaya big enough... Or figure out the sequence of who ties in when with 2 draws


spikeddem


Sep 7, 2010, 5:20 PM
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bearbreeder wrote:
So yr arguin that a sliding x is not acceptable on bolts? Lol

I'm saying there are better and faster ways of accomplishing the same goal. IF someone does insist on using a sliding x for an anchor, then in my humble opinion they should use limiter knots. Limiter knots would not only limit extension, they would also make a large portion of the sling redundant.

In reply to:
i think u need to take a basic anchor course .... The only real problem with a sliding x is the extention on trad gear

Given that one bolt has already pulled, how much can you trust the other one? Moreover, it is not only an extension issue, but a redundancy issue, too. Extension becomes an issue when one bolt has already pulled, and redundancy (of the sling) is an issue when someone is at the anchor belaying (e.g., rock fall).

In reply to:
if theres rockfall its WAY more likely to cut a 60 m rope than a 1.2 m sling at the belay

This would only be true if the 60 meter rope were under tension, which it is not when the leader is climbing.

In reply to:
not only is a proper anchor setup faster on 2 bolts where there are no chains ... It creates less of a cluster fcuk ... And is more flexible

I agree, I just think the anchors mentioned previously using just the rope are proper, and in comparison, yours is not. Laugh Your method is not faster, it is not less of a clusterfuck, it is not more flexible, and it does not meet the criteria the OP mentioned of allowing each person to being out of the other's way at the belay. It also requires gear that would not otherwise be carried.

In reply to:
you can use 2 draws ... But how are you guys going to clip 2 bolts with 4 draws unless the bolt holea are alwaya big enough... Or figure out the sequence of who ties in when with 2 draws

Two draws means four carabiners. I didn't say anything about using four draws. To figure out the sequence of who ties in when...perhaps you could read my original posts.

Edit: Clarity.


(This post was edited by spikeddem on Sep 7, 2010, 5:24 PM)


bearbreeder


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is your tie in from the harness to the clove redundant, this is under tension ... if not then there is no point in redundancy in yr sliding x ... not on bolts ...

if yr worried about weak bolts the LAST thing you would want to do is anchor off quickdraws ... build a serene anchor, which you can with the sling and biners

using only 2 quickdraws ... if yr not swapping leads ... then at some point both climbers will be only on non locking biner unless they leash themselves in seperately in addition to the clove ... or you use lockers on the draws


shimanilami


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Re: [bearbreeder] Good ways to setup hanging belay [In reply to]
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I suppose it's a bit late to point out that the OP was asking how to manage hanging belays while on rappel.


socalclimber


Sep 8, 2010, 5:00 AM
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Re: [shimanilami] Good ways to setup hanging belay [In reply to]
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shimanilami wrote:
I suppose it's a bit late to point out that the OP was asking how to manage hanging belays while on rappel.

Unless he edited the original post, I didn't read anything in his post that even hinted at rapping.


spikeddem


Sep 8, 2010, 6:03 AM
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Re: [bearbreeder] Good ways to setup hanging belay [In reply to]
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bearbreeder wrote:
is your tie in from the harness to the clove redundant, this is under tension ... if not then there is no point in redundancy in yr sliding x ... not on bolts ...

By optionally doing a bunny ear figure 8 it could mostly be accomplished. I say mostly, because there would still be a part that would not be redundant, but it would certainly be less than the 120 cm of sling. Moreover, you can move the location of non-redundant part by trying to dodge any falling rock. With a sling with no limiter knots, this pragmatically impossible at a hanging belay. Alternatively, one could tie a figure 8 on a bight and clip it to the rope going through their tie-in points (this would be more of a cluster and would require an extra draw or locking biner, but it would be completely redundant). The big idea here is just that it's LESS work, LESS cluster, and LESS extra junk to use the rope instead of a ridiculous sling with extra lockers.

In reply to:
if yr worried about weak bolts the LAST thing you would want to do is anchor off quickdraws ... build a serene anchor, which you can with the sling and biners

That depends on how you attach yourself to the sling. One could opt to very roughly equalize the forces by doing a bunny ear figure 8, too. Maximizing the use of the rope will create less stress. Moreover, if the bolts are weak then you cannot build a SRENE anchor using them regardless of what anchoring method is used.

In reply to:
using only 2 quickdraws ... if yr not swapping leads ... then at some point both climbers will be only on non locking biner unless they leash themselves in seperately in addition to the clove ... or you use lockers on the draws

Have you even read the method's description? This is completely wrong. Well, it's true for the 0.5 seconds between tieing the first knot and the second knot, but each person could be kept on belay that entire time. There is no need to switch around carabiners or any other such junk.


spikeddem


Sep 8, 2010, 6:04 AM
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Re: [socalclimber] Good ways to setup hanging belay [In reply to]
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socalclimber wrote:
shimanilami wrote:
I suppose it's a bit late to point out that the OP was asking how to manage hanging belays while on rappel.

Unless he edited the original post, I didn't read anything in his post that even hinted at rapping.

Yeah, shimanilami, you must just be thinking of a different thread.


bearbreeder


Sep 8, 2010, 6:58 AM
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Re: [spikeddem] Good ways to setup hanging belay [In reply to]
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So now yr arguing to do bunny ears ???

Are you simply arguing fir the sake of arguing lol

its simple

1. A sliding x is the most sple to setup and requires only a clove for the rope

2. Its a lot neater than using who knows how many biners

3. Paryner comes up and just throws on a locker and cloves

4. You can build a serene anchor with the same materials

5. For rappel its safer than simply using a leash and almoat as fast

6. Betwen the 2 of u ... Youll prob have 6 lockers and nearly 5 m of webbing a much better bail kit than just 1 or 4 draws

7. EVERY climber should have and know how to setup proper anchor

8. It deals with most situations ... Uneven anchors ... Weak anchors ... Tree or flake rappels ... Etc...

9.It doesnt weight much more and doesnt cost much more

10. In an emergency and with an atc guide and 2 extendible slings u can use the material to ascend a rope ... I assume u carry 2 extendibles for those drag situations ANY multi climbs


spikeddem


Sep 8, 2010, 7:44 AM
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Re: [bearbreeder] Good ways to setup hanging belay [In reply to]
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bearbreeder wrote:
So now yr arguing to do bunny ears ???

This whole time I've been saying that using only the rope and gear that is already present is the fastest, cheapest, cleanest, and most efficient way.

In reply to:
Are you simply arguing fir the sake of arguing lol

I'm arguing for the sake of not spreading shitty advice.

[quoet]its simple
I thought so, too.

In reply to:
1. A sliding x is the most sple to setup and requires only a clove for the rope

We obviously have a fundamental disagreement about whether or not it is easier and faster. Given equal familiarity with both, the rope method is clearly faster and easier and requires less gear.

In reply to:
2. Its a lot neater than using who knows how many biners

Four locking biners for your method versus two quickdraws for using the rope? I'd have to disagree.3. Paryner comes up and just throws on a locker and cloves
Partner arrives at a prepared station, tie's a clove hitch, weights it, and ties a fig 8 on a bight. Easy peasy lemon squeezy.

In reply to:
4. You can build a serene anchor with the same materials

Not sure what you're even talking about here.

In reply to:
5. For rappel its safer than simply using a leash and almoat as fast

Off topic.

In reply to:
6. Betwen the 2 of u ... Youll prob have 6 lockers and nearly 5 m of webbing a much better bail kit than just 1 or 4 draws

5 meters of webbing?? What??

In reply to:
7. EVERY climber should have and know how to setup proper anchor

You act like we disagree on this.

In reply to:
8. It deals with most situations ... Uneven anchors ... Weak anchors ... Tree or flake rappels ... Etc...

Are you implying that a 120 cm sling is more versatile than the rope itself?

In reply to:
9.It doesnt weight much more and doesnt cost much more

And only a fraction of the versatility.

In reply to:
10. In an emergency and with an atc guide and 2 extendible slings u can use the material to ascend a rope ... I assume u carry 2 extendibles for those drag situations ANY multi climbs

Except that if I'm building the anchor out of the sling, it won't be available to use on the route...

If you want to keep using your method, that's fine. Just don't go on and on about how it's more versatile than using the rope itself to build the anchor. It's not. However, it is more expensive, more of a clusterfuck, heavier, slower, less versatile, less efficient, and less effective.

I'm just repeating myself now, however. If you come up with something new, rather than just re-stating what you've already (incorrectly) claimed, then I'll respond. Otherwise, I suggest you just re-read my posts and the original method (along with other ways of using just the rope to build an anchor). I'm sure if you give it a chance, you'll see that the rope is vastly superior to the sliding x in the vast majority of cases.


bearbreeder


Sep 8, 2010, 7:53 AM
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Re: [spikeddem] Good ways to setup hanging belay [In reply to]
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BOTH ways use the rope ... Ur just using draws instead of a sling

ur draws arent dynamic rope ... Lol

on serious mutipitch sport you want options ... 2 draws dont do that for you and isnt any faster than a sling

theres a reason why thy dont teach u to build even bolted anchors For multi with draws in courses or in books

take. Basic anchor course where you learn how to build actual anchors lol

its a "oh sh!t i forgot my stuff" technique lol


(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Sep 8, 2010, 7:56 AM)


spikeddem


Sep 8, 2010, 8:10 AM
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Re: [bearbreeder] Good ways to setup hanging belay [In reply to]
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Sungam, if you're trolling me, I swear to God I'm going to murder you.


jipstyle


Sep 8, 2010, 10:32 AM
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Re: [bearbreeder] Good ways to setup hanging belay [In reply to]
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bearbreeder wrote:
i think u need to take a basic anchor course .... The only real problem with a sliding x is the extention on trad gear

No, the problem with a sliding-X is extension. If you're so comfortable using bolts, why do you use both? If you're going to use both, why not use them properly?

In reply to:
if theres rockfall its WAY more likely to cut a 60 m rope than a 1.2 m sling at the belay

Dead wrong. Emphasis on dead. The rope is less likely to be under tension and may survive rockfall if struck. A sling under tension is easily sliced by the edge of a decently sized rock .. say, the size of your head.

In reply to:
not only is a proper anchor setup faster on 2 bolts where there are no chains ... It creates less of a cluster fcuk ... And is more flexible

If a sliding-X is that much faster than, say, equalised cordalettes then you don't know how to set up the second properly. It certainly doesn't create a cluster and is no less flexible than a sliding-x.

They are BOLTS. Multi-directional anchors. How much more flexibility do you need in a system?

In reply to:
you can use 2 draws ... But how are you guys going to clip 2 bolts with 4 draws unless the bolt holea are alwaya big enough... Or figure out the sequence of who ties in when with 2 draws

Do you know what a 'powerpoint' is? I'm not talking about a slide show here.

Anchor course indeed.


bearbreeder


Sep 8, 2010, 1:02 PM
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Re: [jipstyle] Good ways to setup hanging belay [In reply to]
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Lol ... So yr saying extention is a problem on bolts?

Stupid ... If yr bolts are failing dont sport climb ... If one bolt fails an it extends the other bolt will hold ... If its that week dont sport time

yr trying to tell me that 120 cm of sling is more likely to get cut than 60 m of rope by rockfall ... Or the rope from yr harness to the clove .... Again stupid

a sliding x is super fast and can be pre rigged so all u need to do is cli clipamd clove ... Its also not a cluster fcuk no matter whag size yr party and a recognized anchor system


jipstyle


Sep 8, 2010, 1:06 PM
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bearbreeder wrote:
Lol ... So yr saying extention is a problem on bolts?

Extension. And yes, bolts can fail. There is a reason that most crags have rebolting funds.

In reply to:
Stupid ... If yr bolts are failing dont sport climb ... If one bolt fails an it extends the other bolt will hold ... If its that week dont sport time

You're calling me stupid and then following it with that drivel? If it is that week, wear a pad and stop posting until your hormones subside.

In reply to:
yr trying to tell me that 120 cm of sling is more likely to get cut than 60 m of rope by rockfall ... Or the rope from yr harness to the clove .... Again stupid

I provided a sound argument. You repeated your drivel and threw in some insults. What will you do to continue the discussion? Misspell some swear words? Insult my mom?

In reply to:
a sliding x is super fast and can be pre rigged so all u need to do is cli clipamd clove

Do you know what a cordalette is?

In reply to:
... Its also not a cluster fcuk no matter whag size yr party and a recognized anchor system

If you're worried about a cordalette-based anchor either becoming a cluster-fuck or if you think that the size of your party has any bearing on it whatsoever ... stick to sport climbing. Please. When people die, it often impacts access to our crags.


(This post was edited by jipstyle on Sep 8, 2010, 1:08 PM)


bearbreeder


Sep 8, 2010, 1:26 PM
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The sliding x distributes the load the best out of ANY anchor system ... It is self equalising ....

If u use draws u had better hope they are exacrtly on the same horizontal plane ... If its even slightly off its not equalized ... You had better use longer draws as well

When in doubt about the stenght of bolts on a belay anchor DONT LEAD OFF it .. its not worth yr life

Build a proper serene anchor if yr really worried instead of using draws

repeat after me .. the anchor must be BOMBER

stupid ... Lol


redlude97


Sep 8, 2010, 1:31 PM
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bearbreeder wrote:
Lol ... So yr saying extention is a problem on bolts?

Stupid ... If yr bolts are failing dont sport climb ... If one bolt fails an it extends the other bolt will hold ... If its that week dont sport time

yr trying to tell me that 120 cm of sling is more likely to get cut than 60 m of rope by rockfall ... Or the rope from yr harness to the clove .... Again stupid

a sliding x is super fast and can be pre rigged so all u need to do is cli clipamd clove ... Its also not a cluster fcuk no matter whag size yr party and a recognized anchor system
That is quite a bold statement to make.


redlude97


Sep 8, 2010, 1:33 PM
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bearbreeder wrote:
The sliding x distributes the load the best out of ANY anchor system ... It is self equalising ....

If u use draws u had better hope they are exacrtly on the same horizontal plane ... If its even slightly off its not equalized ... You had better use longer draws as well

When in doubt about the stenght of bolts on a belay anchor DONT LEAD OFF it .. its not worth yr life

Build a proper serene anchor if yr really worried instead of using draws

repeat after me .. the anchor must be BOMBER

stupid ... Lol
Actually its not. The quad is better at equalizing because their is no binding due to the twist in the sling. If you are going to go through the trouble of carrying a piece to use for 2 bolt anchors just bring a pretied quad.


bearbreeder


Sep 8, 2010, 1:50 PM
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Anything is better than using 2 draws on "weak bolts"

the point is you are better off carrying a sling, 3 lockers for yr multipitch anchor material than 2 draws

its cleaner and more flexible

you can premake a sliding x, serene anchor, or whatever you want

and its just as fast

if yr climbing on questionable bolt anchors on a sport route go down .... Quickdraw anchora are the worst option... the angle with draws may well be too wide and unless the bolts are exactly om the same plane u may not be equalized


spikeddem


Sep 8, 2010, 2:16 PM
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OK. So it's not Sungam trolling, but someone is having fun.

Not a bad troll at all, IMO. Had me taking the bait for sure.


jipstyle


Sep 8, 2010, 2:23 PM
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bearbreeder wrote:
The sliding x distributes the load the best out of ANY anchor system ... It is self equalising ....

... until an anchor fails.

In reply to:
If u use draws u had better hope they are exacrtly on the same horizontal plane ... If its even slightly off its not equalized ... You had better use longer draws as well

Cordalette. Not draws.

In reply to:
When in doubt about the stenght of bolts on a belay anchor DONT LEAD OFF it .. its not worth yr life

Thanks for the pithy wisdom. Not all failed bolts also failed a visual inspection.

In reply to:
Build a proper serene anchor if yr really worried instead of using draws

Cordalette.

If there are bolts, odds are quite good that there is no room for gear. If you're talking about building a SRENE anchor using the bolts: cordalette.

In reply to:
stupid ... Lol

Illiterate. "lol"


jipstyle


Sep 8, 2010, 2:24 PM
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spikeddem wrote:
OK. So it's not Sungam trolling, but someone is having fun.

Not a bad troll at all, IMO. Had me taking the bait for sure.

I hope you're right.

I wouldn't mind being trolled. In fact, I'd prefer to have been trolled to thinking this guy may fall on my head one day.


bearbreeder


Sep 8, 2010, 2:29 PM
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It makes no functional difference whether you use a cordelette or long sling in this case

slings are full strength and you dont need to worry about the double fishermans getting untied

cord is fine for this app ... as is a nylon sling

draws are the last resort

if yr both yr bolts fail yr screwed anyways ... If you think a sliding x will pull bolts then i suggest you stop climbing ... Lol

stooopid


(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Sep 8, 2010, 2:34 PM)


jipstyle


Sep 8, 2010, 2:39 PM
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bearbreeder wrote:
It makes no functional difference whether you use a cordelette or long sling in this case

It does if the sling is set-up as a sliding X without knots to limit extension.

In reply to:
slings are full strength and you dont need to worry about the double fishermans getting untied

If the knot blows, you lose one leg of the anchor and you still don't have to worry about extension.

In 15 years, I've never had a knot blow. You?

In reply to:
draws are the last resort

I don't see why you'd use draws at all even if you had nothing but draws on your harness.

In reply to:
if yr both yr bolts fail yr screwed anyways ... If you think a sliding x will pull bolts then i suggest you stop climbing

Do you have a vowel phobia?


bearbreeder


Sep 8, 2010, 2:52 PM
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never had a double fishermans come untied over time? .... wow u must be special

lol

the extension simply isn't an issue on sport climbing anchor bolts ... if BOTH bolts are that weak maybe you should just free solo ... lol

or are u just trolling now Tongue


redlude97


Sep 8, 2010, 3:02 PM
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bearbreeder wrote:
never had a double fishermans come untied over time? .... wow u must be special

lol

the extension simply isn't an issue on sport climbing anchor bolts ... if BOTH bolts are that weak maybe you should just free solo ... lol

or are u just trolling now Tongue
If extension isn't an issue then why is equalization. Clove into both bolts with the rope, or just use draws. You can't seem to make up your mind if you trust bolts or not. Either you need equalization, in which case you also should need to limit extension, or you don't, in which case just clip into 2 points for redundancy and call it good.


bearbreeder


Sep 8, 2010, 3:13 PM
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neatness, speed and flexibility

premade X or serene ... clip one, clip other, single clove ... draws you need to make 2 knots ... or use another locker which adds another step

2 hangers only with no chains ... X or serene ... just clip the focal or shelf (for serene) .... for 2 draws you either need to take off 1 knot at a time if yr not swaping leads ... or the partner needs to use 2 more draws through the hangers and create a mess ... or you both carry another locker each for the focal in which case its not any faster

flexibility .... IF the bolts dont inspire confidence and you are fcukang crazy enough to climb ... with a double length sling and 3 lockers you can make a sliding X serene, or, some other funkay anchor if u want

bail options ... need to bail? ... between the 2 of u, u have 6 lockers and 5 m worth of webbing ... more than enough ... instead of 2-4 draws... you can rap off trees and rocks if you go off the rap route by mistake

ascending ... you can ascend a rope with the slings kleimheisted if you need

extendibles ... if you really need you can use it as extendible draws if you run out

and you can always go back to using draws if you forget or use up the slings for other purposes

as i ALWAYS said you CAN use draws ... it just isn't the best or good option

but hey ... people can't accept the fact that a premade X is just as fast and more flexible ..

lol


(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Sep 8, 2010, 3:16 PM)


spikeddem


Sep 8, 2010, 4:37 PM
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This has already been discussed. You are incorrect, bearbreeder. I should point out that the main conclusion of the other thread is that there is no one best anchor. It depends, of course, on the situation. That being said, the sliding x fucking blows as an anchor in comparison to most other anchors in terms of speed, efficiency, clusterfuck-edness, unnecessary gear, and safety.

Before you respond to anything I have said or anything else others have said, read through the other thread. Any questions or points you would like to ask or argue were likely already covered in this thread or the other.

I'm done. *exhale*


bearbreeder


Sep 8, 2010, 4:46 PM
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lol in this case yr using biners not draws ...

the sliding X works and is simple ... and it works as a rappel anchor which i think the original poster asked about

and the sling and lockers give you more options if you run into issues and ALLLOWS YOU TO USE THE FULL LENGTH OF THE ROPE if you need

there is nothing wrong with the diagram you showed but it IS SLOWER you need to make 3 knots vs the single clove hitch for the sliding X

almost anyone can set up the sliding X one handed...good luck doing that with the fig 8 on yr setup

i guess most other anchors blow in terms of speed, CF, and gear ... since the serene needs EXACTLY the same gear ...


i use that setup on TRAD anchors for 3 pieces when i forget the anchor material and everyone should know it ... but on bolts the dynamic nature aint needed ... the problem is can you each the top clove easily, the knot is farther away since its not at the focal

john long in his 2nd edition doesnt seem to have any issues with the X on sport climbing bolts ... maybe u know bettah than him ... hmmm
and i thought u werent replying ;)


(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Sep 8, 2010, 5:29 PM)


davidnn5


Sep 9, 2010, 2:24 AM
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No one who repeatedly and egregiously uses ellipses and "yr" is worth listening to. If people want to present themselves as intelligent, they can take the extra 14 seconds to write words in full.

There was some interesting data some time ago in the lab proving the legendary sliding X often "sticks" and therefore doesn't provide the equalisation some argue it does. However in this case, where a 13 year old is arguing with others about how to climb, one has to bow to the inevitability of the young always knowing more than the elderly, and having iteratively worse grammar.

By the same token, we're all getting 'stronger' and there is no grade creep. !


bearbreeder


Sep 9, 2010, 4:04 AM
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testing of sliding shows absolute difference transmitted to each arm in a factor 1 fall was very close to 0 ...sliding X equalizes much better and consistently ... pg 186

with solid 2 bolt anchors setup (sliding x) setup is both quick and easy ... pg 160

climbing anchors john long 2nd ed ... guess he's a 13 yr old too Wink

sliding X is simple, fast, flexible, extention is a non issue on bomber bolts, allows you to lead in blocks, allows use of the full rope, lets u set up rap anchors if needed and allows you to adjust the tie ine length

and if you dont like it the same materials allow you to make a serene anchor ...

i really dont know how youll lead in blocks tying in with the rope anchor unless u untie ... not the best thing to do for time ... lol

YR welcome Tongue


(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Sep 9, 2010, 4:08 AM)


dingus


Sep 9, 2010, 5:44 AM
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What a worthless thread.

DMT


caughtinside


Sep 9, 2010, 11:02 AM
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Lot of wanking about two bolt anchors here.


MS1


Sep 9, 2010, 12:10 PM
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bearbreeder wrote:
testing of sliding shows absolute difference transmitted to each arm in a factor 1 fall was very close to 0 ...sliding X equalizes much better and consistently ... pg 186

with solid 2 bolt anchors setup (sliding x) setup is both quick and easy ... pg 160

climbing anchors john long 2nd ed ... guess he's a 13 yr old too Wink

sliding X is simple, fast, flexible, extention is a non issue on bomber bolts, allows you to lead in blocks, allows use of the full rope, lets u set up rap anchors if needed and allows you to adjust the tie ine length

and if you dont like it the same materials allow you to make a serene anchor ...

i really dont know how youll lead in blocks tying in with the rope anchor unless u untie ... not the best thing to do for time ... lol

YR welcome Tongue

You are the least interesting troll this site has seen in some time. Your posts are worthless, long, and unfunny. Seriously, I never thought I would say this, but you are making me appreciate subantz.

Go read some of the classic majid threads and then try again.

ps: If you "lol" one more time, it is good cause for a cock punching.


MS1


Sep 9, 2010, 12:11 PM
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This thread is such a waste of time that I don't even feel good about this PTFTW.


bearbreeder


Sep 9, 2010, 12:27 PM
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MS1 wrote:
You are the least interesting troll this site has seen in some time. Your posts are worthless, long, and unfunny. Seriously, I never thought I would say this, but you are making me appreciate subantz.

Go read some of the classic majid threads and then try again.

ps: If you "lol" one more time, it is good cause for a cock punching.


zzzzzzzzzzzzz ....lol Tongue


did u have anything to contribute on hanging belays ... lol


MS1


Sep 9, 2010, 12:55 PM
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COCKPUNCHES


bearbreeder


Sep 9, 2010, 1:09 PM
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MS1 wrote:
COCKPUNCHES

lol
Tongue


MS1


Sep 9, 2010, 1:19 PM
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What's the capital of Thailand? I'll give you a hint:




gmggg


Sep 9, 2010, 1:31 PM
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Please use the NSFW tag when appropriate. Several of my coworkers became aroused at that dose of ursine paw-love.


spikeddem


Sep 9, 2010, 2:37 PM
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gmggg wrote:
Please use the NSFW tag when appropriate. Several of my coworkers became aroused at that dose of ursine paw-love.

R yu a bare?


bill413


Sep 9, 2010, 3:26 PM
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spikeddem wrote:
gmggg wrote:
Please use the NSFW tag when appropriate. Several of my coworkers became aroused at that dose of ursine paw-love.

R yu a bare?

lol



































Blush sorry


bill413


Sep 9, 2010, 3:27 PM
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MS1 wrote:
You are the least interesting troll this site has seen in some time. Your posts are worthless, long, and unfunny. Seriously, I never thought I would say this, but you are making me appreciate subantz.

Go read some of the classic majid threads and then try again.

ps: If you "lol" one more time, it is good cause for a cock punching.

So that's why subantz can't get bannzed. We need him as a metric.


MS1


Sep 9, 2010, 3:35 PM
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bill413 wrote:
MS1 wrote:
You are the least interesting troll this site has seen in some time. Your posts are worthless, long, and unfunny. Seriously, I never thought I would say this, but you are making me appreciate subantz.

Go read some of the classic majid threads and then try again.

ps: If you "lol" one more time, it is good cause for a cock punching.

So that's why subantz can't get bannzed. We need him as a metric.

Indeed. By comparison to our young bear-baiter, "Pull test this" is comedy gold.


MS1


Sep 9, 2010, 3:36 PM
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bill413 wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
gmggg wrote:
Please use the NSFW tag when appropriate. Several of my coworkers became aroused at that dose of ursine paw-love.

R yu a bare?

lol

Blush sorry

Your use was acceptable, but don't push it. I have a whole sack full of these things for excessive lolling. It's a slippery slope and someone has to stand against the tide.


bearbreeder


Sep 9, 2010, 3:47 PM
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lol Wink


MS1


Sep 9, 2010, 3:52 PM
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bearbreeder wrote:
lol Wink

I guess you are one of those weirdos who enjoy cockpunches. Well I'm not going to play that kinky game with you, so lol it up, freak. I'm out.


jipstyle


Sep 9, 2010, 3:56 PM
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MS1 wrote:
ps: If you "lol" one more time, it is good cause for a cock punching.

Truth.

Can we say that another "lol .. stoopid" is worth a cock punch AND some big bro intimacy?

(You choose whether the bro is pro or a fellow inmate)


bearbreeder


Sep 9, 2010, 4:05 PM
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MS1 wrote:
bearbreeder wrote:
lol Wink

I guess you are one of those weirdos who enjoy cockpunches. Well I'm not going to play that kinky game with you, so lol it up, freak. I'm out.

u always wanna reach out and touch what ya dun have ... lol Tongue


bill413


Sep 9, 2010, 5:44 PM
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jipstyle wrote:
MS1 wrote:
ps: If you "lol" one more time, it is good cause for a cock punching.

Truth.

Can we say that another "lol .. stoopid" is worth a cock punch AND some big bro intimacy?

(You choose whether the bro is pro or a fellow inmate)

Clearly, there is a strong desire.







Not that there is anything wrong with that.
As long as it's not _my_ pro.


tisakson


Oct 18, 2010, 8:03 PM
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Simple is key. Daisy or PAS yourself at a good distance for comfort off of one bolt. Use your climbing rope tied to your harness and clove hitch that to a biner on the other bolt, equalizing it with the PAS/daisy. Then belay your partner off of two draws hung through the bolts or biners that you are on. Then you're all tied in and ready to go when you dismantle it all to follow your partner up the second pitch...Simple. Or just use two slings..it doesn't matter as long as your equal on two anchors. I butterfly rope over my right foot or the slings in front of your off your harness.


moose_droppings


Oct 18, 2010, 9:07 PM
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Uh no.

You just had to go and interject "daisy" into this mess.

Wink


DarenBowel


Feb 23, 2011, 3:59 AM
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I think it's not easy.


blueeyedclimber


Feb 23, 2011, 6:12 AM
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spikeddem wrote:
With two draws there are four carabiners. This is plenty for two people to build two anchors without sharing sharing carabiners.

The only criticism I have of that is that you have essentially taken away 2 draws from the leader on the next pitch. This may or may not matter. I will often use a locker on one bolt, clove to it, put a draw on the other clove to the top. This works perfect if you are switching leads. Your way is slightly more efficient if you are doing all the leading, but I will sacrifice a few seconds to if they are long pitches and I want as much gear as possible for the next pitch.

Josh


EuroFreeBase


Jun 10, 2011, 9:23 PM
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use one bolt above one bolt then get your base shoot ready in case it tears out because static rope is lighter than dynamic rope so use that for multi pitching


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