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Accident while lowering at City of Rocks
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ensonik


Sep 2, 2010, 5:54 PM
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Accident while lowering at City of Rocks
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Gunks.com thread

In reply to:
Yesterday was going to be the last day of what was an amazing and fabulous vacation out west, but when doing the first climb of the morning, I lowered Rich and the rope slipped right past my belay (in order words, the rope was too short to lower him off) sending him head first on the rock where he broke his nose, then again 10 feet lower where he landed on his side and head, breaking some ribs, creating an immense laceration on his head (20 staples) and doing more stumbling down the rock. I thought he was dead.

I've never felt this awful. I ran to his help - blood everywhere, he was not responsive, and we were in the middle of nowhere at City of Rocks, practically. I waited a minute for him to somewhat regain consciousness, and then positionned him with his feet up with the hope that while I was getting help, he would not go into shock.

I then ran to the car like I've never ran before and drove to get help, and I luckily ran into a ranger who immediately set out a rescue team and called a helicopter for an evacuation. I then ran back up to Rich and thank god, he was still alive.

About an hour after the accident, he was in the hands of paramedics and was heli-flown to a trauma center in Ogden, Utah. I drove there a few hours later and he had the best team caring for him - truly amazing medical staff.

Anyways, it has been the worst day of my life, between the fear of losing him altogether, the guilt of not having noticed the rope issue, and the pain of seeing him in such distress... and the fact that it was a completely preventable accident. A COMPLETELY PREVENTABLE accident. Just awful.

(Two weeks earlier, another women dropped her husband the same way but 50' and he wasn't so lucky - I did not ask details.)

He was extubated last night and they will be doing more tests today to make sure his brain and spine are fine - thus far, all the tests came back great. No major injuries, just some things that will heal soon.

PLEASE always tie a knot at the end of your rope when top roping, identify CLEARLY the mid-way point of the rope. And wear a helmet.

I will put an update in a few days, but no news until then is good news.


Partner oldsalt


Sep 2, 2010, 6:41 PM
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Re: [ensonik] Accident while lowering at City of Rocks [In reply to]
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I'm concerned about the description of events. Before going there, I see that he is doing well, thank God.

The description includes the phrase "top roping". Doesn't that imply that the climber returns to the point from which he started the climb? Shouldn't there have been enough rope to do the start, and thus enough rope to return to the same spot?

The only way I can visualize this is if the belayer moved further down slope during the climb. This would require more rope to lower than was needed to start.

Clarity, anyone?


socalclimber


Sep 2, 2010, 6:50 PM
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Re: [ensonik] Accident while lowering at City of Rocks [In reply to]
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I cannot stress enough how important it is to close the system when top roping. I don't care if there is 40 feet of excess rope laying on the ground. DO IT.

This is one of my (many) lessons I teach when guiding. Know where your ends are, and close the system. The reason I drill this into my clients, even when there is a an excess of rope on the ground is simple:

The more you practice good safety habits, the more ingrained they become and you will do them without thinking. Conversely, the more you practice bad safety habits (being lax, complacent etc), the more ingrained they become and you will do them without thinking.

Start thinking folks.


socalclimber


Sep 2, 2010, 6:53 PM
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Re: [oldsalt] Accident while lowering at City of Rocks [In reply to]
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oldsalt wrote:
I'm concerned about the description of events. Before going there, I see that he is doing well, thank God.

The description includes the phrase "top roping". Doesn't that imply that the climber returns to the point from which he started the climb? Shouldn't there have been enough rope to do the start, and thus enough rope to return to the same spot?

The only way I can visualize this is if the belayer moved further down slope during the climb. This would require more rope to lower than was needed to start.

Clarity, anyone?

Well, I wasn't there. But, here is what generally tends to happen in these types of accidents. Leader does the route, it's steep, and sometimes the base is steep as you mentioned. Leader gets to the top, neither has bothered to judge the length of the route, or close the system. Leader sets up anchor, belayer starts to lower.

You can guess the rest.

Edited:

I will add this, there are sport routes that are at the bleeding edge of a 100 feet. Therefore, if you are not knowledgeable of the area, or are not capable of judging vertical distances, then this type of accident can occur very easily.


(This post was edited by socalclimber on Sep 2, 2010, 7:58 PM)


rangerrob


Sep 2, 2010, 8:08 PM
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Re: [socalclimber] Accident while lowering at City of Rocks [In reply to]
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I think one should not start rushing to judgement, or criticism and making sweeping generalizations about the experience or skill of the climbers in question. If you don't have the facts, then don't assume anything.

RR


billcoe_


Sep 2, 2010, 8:21 PM
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Re: [rangerrob] Accident while lowering at City of Rocks [In reply to]
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rangerrob wrote:
I think one should not start rushing to judgement, or criticism and making sweeping generalizations about the experience or skill of the climbers in question. If you don't have the facts, then don't assume anything. RR

Hey, what the #$X##! this is the internet, so it's in the process of going viral right now with massive amounts of sweeping generalizations, rush to judgment with inadequate facts, judgmental bickering, false information, lies and stupidity set to follow. There's not a damn thing any of us can do about it, so I'm sorry to have to point out you need to get the hell out of the way or get trampled in the stampede. LOL! Sorry! Laugh

BTW, here's a point I need to add to Socals good advice, ropes shrink. So even the rope that reaches the ground this year may be 10 feet short the next. I had that happen to me. No one dropped of course, just shocked how much (shrinkage) there was. EXACT SAME ROPE.


(This post was edited by billcoe_ on Sep 7, 2010, 6:02 PM)


socalclimber


Sep 2, 2010, 8:25 PM
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Re: [rangerrob] Accident while lowering at City of Rocks [In reply to]
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rangerrob wrote:
I think one should not start rushing to judgement, or criticism and making sweeping generalizations about the experience or skill of the climbers in question. If you don't have the facts, then don't assume anything.

RR

This is not a physics equation. There are only a limited number of possibilities that cause these type of accidents.

Also, billcoe_ is spot on, rope shrinkage does happen.


(This post was edited by socalclimber on Sep 2, 2010, 8:26 PM)


Partner rgold


Sep 2, 2010, 8:35 PM
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Re: [oldsalt] Accident while lowering at City of Rocks [In reply to]
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Socal described it; the leader was being lowered, it wasn't a top-roping situation as usually understood, the OP's language was meant to describe how the second was to be belayed up.

City of Rocks is becoming notorious for having anchors that are more than thirty meters from the ground. Bridwell rapped off the end of his ropes there a few years ago, and there have been other accidents of this type that ended up having more serious consequences.

The whole point of the OP's post was to emphasize the need for preventive measures, and this was done at the expense of an excruciating confession of personal responsibility. That being the case, there really is no subsequent need to burst through doors already open.

We can, of course, take pride in doing things that other people do not when it is the other people who pay a steep price. But anyone who thinks they are immune from a momentary lapse that has tragic results is living in a fantasy which I sincerely hope is never intruded on by reality.

From the appropriately humble position conditioned by this realization, I would suggest wishing the injured climber a full recovery and sending our heartfelt sympathies to the belayer, who learned a horribly painful lesson and whose immediate instinct and generous response was to share a warning with her fellow climbers.

The stampede billcoe describes is only inevitable if we all agree it should be inevitable.


(This post was edited by rgold on Sep 2, 2010, 8:51 PM)


socalclimber


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Re: [rgold] Accident while lowering at City of Rocks [In reply to]
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Thank you rgold, well put as always, regardless of whether you agree with me or not.


curt


Sep 3, 2010, 5:12 PM
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Re: [rgold] Accident while lowering at City of Rocks [In reply to]
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rgold wrote:
Socal described it; the leader was being lowered, it wasn't a top-roping situation as usually understood, the OP's language was meant to describe how the second was to be belayed up.

City of Rocks is becoming notorious for having anchors that are more than thirty meters from the ground. Bridwell rapped off the end of his ropes there a few years ago, and there have been other accidents of this type that ended up having more serious consequences.

The whole point of the OP's post was to emphasize the need for preventive measures, and this was done at the expense of an excruciating confession of personal responsibility. That being the case, there really is no subsequent need to burst through doors already open.

We can, of course, take pride in doing things that other people do not when it is the other people who pay a steep price. But anyone who thinks they are immune from a momentary lapse that has tragic results is living in a fantasy which I sincerely hope is never intruded on by reality.

From the appropriately humble position conditioned by this realization, I would suggest wishing the injured climber a full recovery and sending our heartfelt sympathies to the belayer, who learned a horribly painful lesson and whose immediate instinct and generous response was to share a warning with her fellow climbers.

The stampede billcoe describes is only inevitable if we all agree it should be inevitable.

Knowing that, it also sounds like a good idea to always have a 70m rope if climbing there--just in case.

Curt


dugl33


Sep 3, 2010, 8:45 PM
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curt wrote:
rgold wrote:
Socal described it; the leader was being lowered, it wasn't a top-roping situation as usually understood, the OP's language was meant to describe how the second was to be belayed up.

City of Rocks is becoming notorious for having anchors that are more than thirty meters from the ground. Bridwell rapped off the end of his ropes there a few years ago, and there have been other accidents of this type that ended up having more serious consequences.

The whole point of the OP's post was to emphasize the need for preventive measures, and this was done at the expense of an excruciating confession of personal responsibility. That being the case, there really is no subsequent need to burst through doors already open.

We can, of course, take pride in doing things that other people do not when it is the other people who pay a steep price. But anyone who thinks they are immune from a momentary lapse that has tragic results is living in a fantasy which I sincerely hope is never intruded on by reality.

From the appropriately humble position conditioned by this realization, I would suggest wishing the injured climber a full recovery and sending our heartfelt sympathies to the belayer, who learned a horribly painful lesson and whose immediate instinct and generous response was to share a warning with her fellow climbers.

The stampede billcoe describes is only inevitable if we all agree it should be inevitable.

Knowing that, it also sounds like a good idea to always have a 70m rope if climbing there--just in case.

Curt

Ending a route at the top... the nerve.


marc801


Sep 3, 2010, 9:49 PM
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curt wrote:
Knowing that, it also sounds like a good idea to always have a 70m rope if climbing there--just in case.
Or <gasp!>, a second rope, like we've done for decades. There are routes at the City that are bolted, feel, and climb like a sport route, but are decidedly longer than half a rope - even longer than half a 70m. There are quite a few routes where the anchors are at 55m.


ClimbClimb


Sep 4, 2010, 5:31 PM
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+1 Best wishes for recovery for both.

In the closing chapter of "Into Thin Air", Krakauer writes:

"Analyzing what went wrong on Everest is a useful enough enterprise; it might conceivably prevent soem deaths down the road. But to believe that dissecting the tragic events of 1996 in minute detail will actually reduce the future death rate in any meaningful way is wishful thinking. The urge to catalog the myriad blunders in order to "learn from the mistakes" is for the most part an exercise in denial and self-deception. If you can convince yourself that Rob Hall died because he made a string of stupid errors and that you are too clever to repeat those same errors, it makes it easier for you to attempt Everest in the face of some rather compelling evidence that doing so is injudicious."

Yes, of course, this is single-pitch climbing, not Himalayan mountaineering, and lowering your partner off the end of the rope is clearly preventable, etc. But the psychology of some of the replies here is the same -- being the first to jump up and throw rocks at the poor belayer (who is probably suffering *more* than the injured climber) may be more a matter of making yourself feel invulnerable, the accident "not applicable".


cruxstacean


Sep 4, 2010, 6:40 PM
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marc801 wrote:
curt wrote:
Knowing that, it also sounds like a good idea to always have a 70m rope if climbing there--just in case.
Or <gasp!>, a second rope, like we've done for decades. There are routes at the City that are bolted, feel, and climb like a sport route, but are decidedly longer than half a rope - even longer than half a 70m. There are quite a few routes where the anchors are at 55m.

Thats because they are sport routes. There's no rule that sport routes can't have anchors at 55m


curt


Sep 4, 2010, 8:52 PM
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cruxstacean wrote:
marc801 wrote:
curt wrote:
Knowing that, it also sounds like a good idea to always have a 70m rope if climbing there--just in case.
Or <gasp!>, a second rope, like we've done for decades. There are routes at the City that are bolted, feel, and climb like a sport route, but are decidedly longer than half a rope - even longer than half a 70m. There are quite a few routes where the anchors are at 55m.

Thats because they are sport routes. There's no rule that sport routes can't have anchors at 55m

I think there's a presumption here that we are, however, talking about routes that can be done with a single rope. I doubt anyone has ever climbed 55m up to a set of anchors (with only one rope) and then asked their belayer to lower them.

Curt


cruxstacean


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curt wrote:
cruxstacean wrote:
marc801 wrote:
curt wrote:
Knowing that, it also sounds like a good idea to always have a 70m rope if climbing there--just in case.
Or <gasp!>, a second rope, like we've done for decades. There are routes at the City that are bolted, feel, and climb like a sport route, but are decidedly longer than half a rope - even longer than half a 70m. There are quite a few routes where the anchors are at 55m.

Thats because they are sport routes. There's no rule that sport routes can't have anchors at 55m

I think there's a presumption here that we are, however, talking about routes that can be done with a single rope. I doubt anyone has ever climbed 55m up to a set of anchors (with only one rope) and then asked their belayer to lower them.

Curt

Stupidity can lead to amazing things though... Unimpressed


marc801


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curt wrote:
cruxstacean wrote:
marc801 wrote:
curt wrote:
Knowing that, it also sounds like a good idea to always have a 70m rope if climbing there--just in case.
Or <gasp!>, a second rope, like we've done for decades. There are routes at the City that are bolted, feel, and climb like a sport route, but are decidedly longer than half a rope - even longer than half a 70m. There are quite a few routes where the anchors are at 55m.

Thats because they are sport routes. There's no rule that sport routes can't have anchors at 55m

I think there's a presumption here that we are, however, talking about routes that can be done with a single rope. I doubt anyone has ever climbed 55m up to a set of anchors (with only one rope) and then asked their belayer to lower them.
Oh for the love of....
Editing my last sentence to: There are quite a few routes where the anchors are at 55m, and several notorious ones, where the anchors are at 35m and 40m, where many have been dropped in the same manner.


redlude97


Sep 6, 2010, 1:00 AM
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marc801 wrote:
curt wrote:
cruxstacean wrote:
marc801 wrote:
curt wrote:
Knowing that, it also sounds like a good idea to always have a 70m rope if climbing there--just in case.
Or <gasp!>, a second rope, like we've done for decades. There are routes at the City that are bolted, feel, and climb like a sport route, but are decidedly longer than half a rope - even longer than half a 70m. There are quite a few routes where the anchors are at 55m.

Thats because they are sport routes. There's no rule that sport routes can't have anchors at 55m

I think there's a presumption here that we are, however, talking about routes that can be done with a single rope. I doubt anyone has ever climbed 55m up to a set of anchors (with only one rope) and then asked their belayer to lower them.
Oh for the love of....
Editing my last sentence to: There are quite a few routes where the anchors are at 55m, and several notorious ones, where the anchors are at 35m and 40m, where many have been dropped in the same manner.
uh does no one mark and notice the center of their ropes nowadays?


bill413


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redlude97 wrote:
uh does no one mark and notice the center of their ropes nowadays?

Many ropes are not marked.
Some ropes are faintly marked.
Some ropes are mis-marked.
It is not difficult to miss the center mark, especially if you are watching the climber.


redlude97


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bill413 wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
uh does no one mark and notice the center of their ropes nowadays?

Many ropes are not marked.
Some ropes are faintly marked.
Some ropes are mis-marked.
It is not difficult to miss the center mark, especially if you are watching the climber.
Doesn't seem like a good reason to not mark your rope or not pay attention to it any more does it?


bill413


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redlude97 wrote:
bill413 wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
uh does no one mark and notice the center of their ropes nowadays?

Many ropes are not marked.
Some ropes are faintly marked.
Some ropes are mis-marked.
It is not difficult to miss the center mark, especially if you are watching the climber.
Doesn't seem like a good reason to not mark your rope or not pay attention to it any more does it?

Seems like a good reason to not rely on it, but regard it as a (sometimes) guide.


viciado


Sep 6, 2010, 9:37 AM
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And it seems like an excellent reason to agree with the OP's (on the Gunks site) original point... tie a knot in the end. Can't miss it even when you aren't looking.


tradmanclimbs


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No one EVER noticices a middle or end mark when loweing a climber off the end of a rope. the focus is always on the climber untill the rope slips through the device. Knowing these facts from the many accidents that we get to analize it is a no brainer that the way to avoid this typ of accident is to tie into the other end of the rope.


raingod


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tradmanclimbs wrote:
No one EVER noticices a middle or end mark when loweing a climber off the end of a rope. .....
You are supposed to notice it when they are on the way up.


sspssp


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tradmanclimbs wrote:
No one EVER noticices a middle or end mark when loweing a climber off the end of a rope. the focus is always on the climber untill the rope slips through the device.

If you wrap thread around the rope (and I carefully "sew" the thread into the rope sheath, to keep the thread from slipping up or down the rope and changing the location of the mark), you can feel it go past your hand and then feel it again as it goes through the belay device. So if you did this near the ends of the rope, it would offer some additional protection against lowering/rapping off the end.

I'm a little surprised that rope makers don't do something to the ends of their ropes so that you can feel the end coming up (thread or something else).

My strategy is to keep the end of the rope always tied: either to the rope bag or the belayer. But no system is perfect. I came inches away from dropping a climber. He had lead the climb on his rope, which was not tied into his rope bag. Relying on the habbits of others can be problematic.


(This post was edited by sspssp on Sep 6, 2010, 11:27 AM)


bill413


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sspssp wrote:
I'm a little surprised that rope makers don't do something to the ends of their ropes so that you can feel the end coming up (thread or something else).

Some models do have marks located ca. 5m from the ends of the ropes. There are several stories about these marks being mistaken for the middle mark when rigging rappels. So, there is debate on their usefulness. (It's one of the reasons I don't trust middle marks, but verify from the ends that I've rigged raps correctly.)

"Closing the system" by knotting the ends (to themselves or a rope bag), and still visually checking (since I've seen end knots come untied from jostling) are, to my mind, better practices than relying on marked ropes.


redlude97


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raingod wrote:
tradmanclimbs wrote:
No one EVER noticices a middle or end mark when loweing a climber off the end of a rope. .....
You are supposed to notice it when they are on the way up.
Exactly. Sure having a backup knot is a good idea, but if you get to the point where the backup is into the belay device you are already in for an epic. I have always payed attention for the midpoint of my rope, especially when there is any question the climb is close to 100'. I let my partner know when they've past the halfway point of the rope, which should only occur on a multi-pitch route with a second rope or rap stations/walkoff.


jt512


Sep 6, 2010, 3:26 PM
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redlude97 wrote:
raingod wrote:
tradmanclimbs wrote:
No one EVER noticices a middle or end mark when loweing a climber off the end of a rope. .....
You are supposed to notice it when they are on the way up.
Exactly. Sure having a backup knot is a good idea, but if you get to the point where the backup is into the belay device you are already in for an epic. I have always payed attention for the midpoint of my rope, especially when there is any question the climb is close to 100'. I let my partner know when they've past the halfway point of the rope, which should only occur on a multi-pitch route with a second rope or rap stations/walkoff.

In my experience it is pretty common to have the middle mark pass the belay device on a single-pitch sport climb, and still be able to lower the climber to the ground with rope stretch. Seeing the middle mark go by should be nothing more than a reminder that the pitch is a rope stretcher, since both the climber and the belayer should have been aware of this before beginning the route.

Jay


redlude97


Sep 6, 2010, 3:36 PM
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jt512 wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
raingod wrote:
tradmanclimbs wrote:
No one EVER noticices a middle or end mark when loweing a climber off the end of a rope. .....
You are supposed to notice it when they are on the way up.
Exactly. Sure having a backup knot is a good idea, but if you get to the point where the backup is into the belay device you are already in for an epic. I have always payed attention for the midpoint of my rope, especially when there is any question the climb is close to 100'. I let my partner know when they've past the halfway point of the rope, which should only occur on a multi-pitch route with a second rope or rap stations/walkoff.

In my experience it is pretty common to have the middle mark pass the belay device on a single-pitch sport climb, and still be able to lower the climber to the ground with rope stretch. Seeing the middle mark go by should be nothing more than a reminder that the pitch is a rope stretcher, since both the climber and the belayer should have been aware of this before beginning the route.

Jay
While thats probably true, my partner and I usually don't put ourselves in that situation. Our most common solution is to use a 70m rope if there is any question about the length, and a 60m rope covers 95% of the other single pitch routes encountered. Leavenworth, which has a number of 100-120' routes often requires the use of a 70m and is indicated as such in the guidebooks.


acorneau


Sep 6, 2010, 6:06 PM
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I agree with most of what has been said, however one simple thing that no one has mentioned yet...

When lowering your climber put both hands on the break side of the rope*. That way you've got two break hands on the rope.

* Obviously this doesn't work when using a device where you need one hand to manipulate a lever like a Grigri, Cinch or Eddy.


socalclimber


Sep 6, 2010, 6:39 PM
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Relying on middle marks is just stupid. This simplest and best way to prevent these accidents is to either A) tie a knot at the end, or B) have the belayer tie into their harness.


brianinslc


Sep 6, 2010, 6:44 PM
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socalclimber wrote:
Relying on middle marks is just stupid. This simplest and best way to prevent these accidents is to either A) tie a knot at the end, or B) have the belayer tie into their harness.

Bingo.


socalclimber


Sep 6, 2010, 6:51 PM
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brianinslc wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
Relying on middle marks is just stupid. This simplest and best way to prevent these accidents is to either A) tie a knot at the end, or B) have the belayer tie into their harness.

Bingo.

Yeah, it just amazes me how much discussion is needed to solve a simple problem. Those who are middle mark happy will most likely end as the target of one of these discussions.


curt


Sep 6, 2010, 10:45 PM
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bill413 wrote:
sspssp wrote:
I'm a little surprised that rope makers don't do something to the ends of their ropes so that you can feel the end coming up (thread or something else).

Some models do have marks located ca. 5m from the ends of the ropes. There are several stories about these marks being mistaken for the middle mark when rigging rappels. So, there is debate on their usefulness.

That's because they are not at all useful.

Curt


bill413


Sep 7, 2010, 5:41 AM
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curt wrote:
bill413 wrote:
sspssp wrote:
I'm a little surprised that rope makers don't do something to the ends of their ropes so that you can feel the end coming up (thread or something else).

Some models do have marks located ca. 5m from the ends of the ropes. There are several stories about these marks being mistaken for the middle mark when rigging rappels. So, there is debate on their usefulness.

That's because they are not at all useful.

Curt

I didn't say the debate wasn't one sided. Wink


socalclimber


Sep 7, 2010, 6:46 AM
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There has been at least one death related to this type of rope that I know of, lord knows how many close calls.


viciado


Sep 7, 2010, 7:12 AM
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socalclimber wrote:
Yeah, it just amazes me how much discussion is needed to solve a simple problem. Those who are middle mark happy will most likely end as the target of one of these discussions.

What amazes me is that the point was essentially made in the original post and pointed out by others, yet it seems that so many want to re-invent the wheel.

Tie a knot or tie in and be done. Unsure

(edit for punctuation)


(This post was edited by viciado on Sep 7, 2010, 7:13 AM)


billl7


Sep 7, 2010, 7:24 AM
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tradmanclimbs wrote:
No one EVER noticices a middle or end mark when loweing a climber off the end of a rope. the focus is always on the climber untill the rope slips through the device. Knowing these facts from the many accidents that we get to analize it is a no brainer that the way to avoid this typ of accident is to tie into the other end of the rope.
Saved my bacon a few years back. After we'd climbed a single-pitch route, I lowered my partner to the deck. Then my partner lowered me so I could top rope the pitch. Only I was stopped about 30 feet off the deck by my partners exclamation that there was about six inches of rope left. Man am I glad she had stayed tied in.

I'm embarassed to say that the rope had an accurately placed middle mark.

This episode gave me a vibrant nightmare that I recalled the morning after. It remains burned into my brain to this day although I'm still just as much a numbskull as I was back then.

Bill L


rangerrob


Sep 7, 2010, 7:51 AM
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Or we could just admit that climbing is dangerous, and human error accounts for the bulk of the accidents. In case we have forgotten, we are all human and subject to making mistakes. Even the humans with combined decades od safe climbing under their belts. We are ALL susceptible to making a mistake like this. If you think you aren't, well then you probably shouldn't be climbing.

Not knowing how to prussik a rope and being stranded mid rappel and calling 911......this is not a mistake, this is irresponsible behavior

RR


sspssp


Sep 7, 2010, 12:26 PM
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bill413 wrote:
sspssp wrote:
I'm a little surprised that rope makers don't do something to the ends of their ropes so that you can feel the end coming up (thread or something else).

Some models do have marks located ca. 5m from the ends of the ropes. There are several stories about these marks being mistaken for the middle
mark when rigging rappels. So, there is debate on their usefulness. (It's one of the reasons I don't trust middle marks, but verify from the ends that I've rigged raps correctly.)

"Closing the system" by knotting the ends (to themselves or a rope bag), and still visually checking (since I've seen end knots come untied from jostling) are, to my mind, better practices than relying on marked ropes.

In my opinion, 5m is too far from the end. If it was 1 or 2 meters, then it would be much, much, more difficult to confuse it with a middle mark. Additionally, if it was a meter or two from the end, that is still plenty of tail to stop lowering/rapping, but it would definitely act as a "panic stop" don't think about anything else.

Yes, closed systems are better, but... Things can still go wrong. When a guy, I had recently met, asked me for a lead belay at the Creek, it didn't cross my mind that the end of his rope was not tied into his bag. When he asked to be lowered, it didn't cross my mind that maybe he didn't know how long the pitch vs his rope was (I certainly didn't). I would have had fewer "cold sweats" if the rope had had thread near the end.


retr2327


Sep 7, 2010, 12:46 PM
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"The more you practice good safety habits, the more ingrained they become and you will do them without thinking. . . .

Start thinking folks."

So which is it?Wink


socalclimber


Sep 7, 2010, 4:25 PM
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retr2327 wrote:
"The more you practice good safety habits, the more ingrained they become and you will do them without thinking. . . .

Start thinking folks."

So which is it?Wink


SlySlySlyLaughLaughLaughLaugh

That's for me to know...


bill413


Sep 7, 2010, 4:50 PM
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socalclimber wrote:
retr2327 wrote:
"The more you practice good safety habits, the more ingrained they become and you will do them without thinking. . . .

Start thinking folks."

So which is it?Wink


SlySlySlyLaughLaughLaughLaugh

That's for me to know...

And majid to find out? Frown


socalclimber


Sep 7, 2010, 5:57 PM
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bill413 wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
retr2327 wrote:
"The more you practice good safety habits, the more ingrained they become and you will do them without thinking. . . .

Start thinking folks."

So which is it?Wink


SlySlySlyLaughLaughLaughLaugh

That's for me to know...

And majid to find out? Frown

Don't ask, don't tell...


tradmanclimbs


Sep 7, 2010, 6:15 PM
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 Obviously you guys did not read what I posted. Many folks may notice the middle mark when they do NOT lower their partner off the end of the rope. However that is NOT what I posted..

I posted.. No one ever notices the middle mark WHEN THEY LOWER THEIR PARTNER OFF THE END OF THE ROPE..
The point is that when the accident happens the middle mark will NEVER save you.. If it did save you there would be no accident. With this info in mind the only sane course of action is to close the system if the climb is anything even close to 30m.


jt512


Sep 7, 2010, 6:19 PM
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tradmanclimbs wrote:
Obviously you guys did not read what I posted. [. . . . ]

I posted.. No one ever notices the middle mark WHEN THEY LOWER THEIR PARTNER OFF THE END OF THE ROPE..

We read it. We just don't understand why you wrote it.

Jay


tradmanclimbs


Sep 8, 2010, 4:02 AM
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The point that what you are supposed to notice or do is not relivent because when accidents happen it is because people don't notice what they were supposed to notice or do what they were supposed to do.


Since it has been proven time and time again that folks have a hard time judging distance and noticing marks on the rope then the obvious solution is to physicaly tie the other end of the rope to the belayer. It is a physical task that can become automatic ( so you don't have to remember it) and is easy to doubble check.


viciado


Sep 8, 2010, 7:17 AM
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Tradman...
In reply to:
when accidents happen it is because people don't notice what they were supposed to notice or do what they were supposed to do

So you believe that the problem is that they were not paying attention or thinking about it?

And your solution is to intentionally learn to do something without having to pay attention or think about it?

In reply to:
automatic ( so you don't have to remember it)


Partner robdotcalm


Sep 8, 2010, 9:41 AM
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Thanks to the OP for explaining how the accident happened. It took courage and a desire to help others avoid the same experience. And it has. About a week ago, I was teaching a wide-crack class with two students. At the first climb, one of the students was surprised when I asked him to tie in to belay me explaining that he and his friends never do that. I told him about accidents that have occurred because of the system not being closed. All his previous experience was with sport-type routes. He was bright and a good climber and picked up things quickly. When I saw this posting, I sent him the link for it. This is from his reply, ” You've definitely got me convinced, I'm going to start putting knots at the end of the rope whenever i climb. Those stories are terrifying and its scary to think how easy it could happen.” OP, your story with its immediacy carried more weight than my tales of grief.

Viciado wrote

« What amazes me is that the point was essentially made in the original post and pointed out by others, yet it seems that so many want to re-invent the wheel.

Tie a knot or tie in and be done»

That sums it up, and the comments I’ll be adding are of less importance. If one is not going to follow the route, then tying a knot or tying-in serve the same purpose. If one is going to follow the route, tying-in is the better choice. A friend of mine was climbing an easy route at Joshua Tree with a guy we met at the adjacent campsite. The route contained some traversing. My friend got to the top and anchored in and started pulling up rope. He suddenly realized he had pulled the rope about half way up the climb. He lowered the rope to the ground, but whoever tied in now would be facing a ground fall for the first 20 or 30 feet because the rope was no longer running through the gear in the first part of the traverse. His belayer did not want to follow. The route was easy enough that it was no big deal to “solo” those first 30 feet so we were able to take care of the problem. If the belayer had been tied-in, this would not have happened.

A more serious incident occurred at Lumpy Ridge. The leader arrived at the belay stance at the end of the first long pitch of the route. The belayer thought that the leader was off belay. He was not. The belayer did have a knot in the end of the rope but as he untied the knot (or just after he did) the leader fell, hit the ground and suffered serious injuries. In this case, if the belayer had been tied-in, he would have arrested the fall before the leader grounded as the pitch was over half a rope length.

Four years ago, Fatal Outcome
2 climbers were descending from the Rincon Wall at Eldorado and arrived at a rappel station 40 feet off the ground. They had a 200 foot rope. It was dark and cold. One partner had been lowered to the ground. Once on the ground, he started to lower the other. When the second climber was about 20 feet off the ground, the rope went through the belayer’s device resulting in fatal injuries. These were competent and careful climbers, but the belayer had not realized that his partner had tied in short (not at the end of the rope). No matter how short the distance, when lowering or belaying, the system must be closed. As John Dill, NPS Ranger at Yosemite wrote Desperate Catch :“One reason for a knot even when the rope clearly reaches the ground is to maintain good habits, so you don’t forget …when a knot really counts...” And you do not know when that will be.

Socal wrote: « I cannot stress enough how important it is to close the system when top roping. I don't care if there is 40 feet of excess rope laying on the ground…This is one of my (many) lessons I teach when guiding..close the system… even when there is a an excess of rope on the ground… »

Not all guides are so wise. Last October, I had a day of guided climbing at Yosemite. Near the end of a day that had gone fine, the guide set up a top rope. Before I started to climb, I asked him to tie a knot in the rope. He said it wasn’t necessary as he always knew where the end of the rope was. I ceremoniously tied a big knot in the rope and told him that me feel more comfortable.

Cheers,
Rob.calm


Partner robdotcalm


Sep 8, 2010, 9:55 AM
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redlude97 wrote:
having a backup knot is a good idea, but if you get to the point where the backup is into the belay device you are already in for an epic.

This is an interesting point, but it's better to face an epic than to have your partner die.

OK, so the climber falls or is lowered and is some distance off the ground with two scenarios (i) a knot is now jammed into the belay device or (ii) the belayer is held tight by the rope tied into his harness.

Time for some Majid type analyses on the best way to safely resolve the problem.

Cheers,
Rob.calm


jt512


Sep 8, 2010, 10:28 AM
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tradmanclimbs wrote:
The point that what you are supposed to notice or do is not relivent because when accidents happen it is because people don't notice what they were supposed to notice or do what they were supposed to do.


Since it has been proven time and time again that folks have a hard time judging distance and noticing marks on the rope then the obvious solution is to physicaly tie the other end of the rope to the belayer. It is a physical task that can become automatic ( so you don't have to remember it) and is easy to doubble check.

Now you're finally saying something logical.

Jay


markc


Sep 8, 2010, 10:32 AM
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robdotcalm wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
having a backup knot is a good idea, but if you get to the point where the backup is into the belay device you are already in for an epic.

This is an interesting point, but it's better to face an epic than to have your partner die.

OK, so the climber falls or is lowered and is some distance off the ground with two scenarios (i) a knot is now jammed into the belay device or (ii) the belayer is held tight by the rope tied into his harness.

Time for some Majid type analyses on the best way to safely resolve the problem.

Cheers,
Rob.calm

Exactly in line with my thoughts. I'd rather have a "What the hell do we do now?" moment with a knot jammed in my device rather than my partner lying in a heap.

Best wishes for a full recovery - for the climber and belayer both.


sspssp


Sep 8, 2010, 11:29 AM
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markc wrote:
robdotcalm wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
having a backup knot is a good idea, but if you get to the point where the backup is into the belay device you are already in for an epic.

This is an interesting point, but it's better to face an epic than to have your partner die.

OK, so the climber falls or is lowered and is some distance off the ground with two scenarios (i) a knot is now jammed into the belay device or (ii) the belayer is held tight by the rope tied into his harness.

Time for some Majid type analyses on the best way to safely resolve the problem.

Cheers,
Rob.calm

Exactly in line with my thoughts. I'd rather have a "What the hell do we do now?" moment with a knot jammed in my device rather than my partner lying in a heap.

Best wishes for a full recovery - for the climber and belayer both.

What you do now is have the climber climb a couple of feet up the route so you can get the weight off the belay device.

If you tie the rope to the rope bag, you will usually see the rope bag lift off the ground before jamming the knot into the belay device.


jt512


Sep 8, 2010, 11:37 AM
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sspssp wrote:
markc wrote:
robdotcalm wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
having a backup knot is a good idea, but if you get to the point where the backup is into the belay device you are already in for an epic.

This is an interesting point, but it's better to face an epic than to have your partner die.

OK, so the climber falls or is lowered and is some distance off the ground with two scenarios (i) a knot is now jammed into the belay device or (ii) the belayer is held tight by the rope tied into his harness.

Time for some Majid type analyses on the best way to safely resolve the problem.

Cheers,
Rob.calm

Exactly in line with my thoughts. I'd rather have a "What the hell do we do now?" moment with a knot jammed in my device rather than my partner lying in a heap.

Best wishes for a full recovery - for the climber and belayer both.

What you do now is have the climber climb a couple of feet up the route so you can get the weight off the belay device.

What if the climber is hanging in space?

Jay


bill413


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jt512 wrote:
sspssp wrote:
markc wrote:
robdotcalm wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
having a backup knot is a good idea, but if you get to the point where the backup is into the belay device you are already in for an epic.

This is an interesting point, but it's better to face an epic than to have your partner die.

OK, so the climber falls or is lowered and is some distance off the ground with two scenarios (i) a knot is now jammed into the belay device or (ii) the belayer is held tight by the rope tied into his harness.

Time for some Majid type analyses on the best way to safely resolve the problem.

Cheers,
Rob.calm

Exactly in line with my thoughts. I'd rather have a "What the hell do we do now?" moment with a knot jammed in my device rather than my partner lying in a heap.

Best wishes for a full recovery - for the climber and belayer both.

What you do now is have the climber climb a couple of feet up the route so you can get the weight off the belay device.

What if the climber is hanging in space?

Jay

Have them boink? Uggh.

Have the belayer climb partway up (after all, they are counterbalanced by the original climber for their belay)?

Issue baseball bats to all onlookers & shout "Pinata!"


jt512


Sep 8, 2010, 12:17 PM
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bill413 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
sspssp wrote:
markc wrote:
robdotcalm wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
having a backup knot is a good idea, but if you get to the point where the backup is into the belay device you are already in for an epic.

This is an interesting point, but it's better to face an epic than to have your partner die.

OK, so the climber falls or is lowered and is some distance off the ground with two scenarios (i) a knot is now jammed into the belay device or (ii) the belayer is held tight by the rope tied into his harness.

Time for some Majid type analyses on the best way to safely resolve the problem.

Cheers,
Rob.calm

Exactly in line with my thoughts. I'd rather have a "What the hell do we do now?" moment with a knot jammed in my device rather than my partner lying in a heap.

Best wishes for a full recovery - for the climber and belayer both.

What you do now is have the climber climb a couple of feet up the route so you can get the weight off the belay device.

What if the climber is hanging in space?

Jay

Have them boink?

Just seeing if anyone is paying attention.

Jay


billcoe_


Sep 8, 2010, 12:58 PM
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jt512 wrote:
What if the climber is hanging in space?

Jay

Tie if off and walk. Oh, you mean the climber? Classic sportclimber move, pull up on the other rope, not the one which is tied to you, but the one to the belayer. If you are too tired, do a prussic knot low with a sling and step on it. Can't find a sling, that's fine, use your shoelaces like James Bond.


jt512


Sep 8, 2010, 1:21 PM
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billcoe_ wrote:
jt512 wrote:
What if the climber is hanging in space?

Jay

Tie if off and walk. Oh, you mean the climber? Classic sportclimber move, pull up on the other rope, not the one which is tied to you, but the one to the belayer. If you are too tired, do a prussic knot low with a sling and step on it. Can't find a sling, that's fine, use your shoelaces like James Bond.

The one time I had to rescue a couple of gumbies who'd gotten into this situation, the belayer's side of the rope was not in reach of the dangling climber: he had lowered off a different side of the formation than he had climbed. The solution was for him to boing so that we could get enough rope back through the belay device to attach a second rope. Then we passed the knot and lowered the climber to the ground.

Jay


spikeddem


Sep 8, 2010, 1:23 PM
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billcoe_ wrote:
jt512 wrote:
What if the climber is hanging in space?

Jay

Tie if off and walk. Oh, you mean the climber? Classic sportclimber move, pull up on the other rope, not the one which is tied to you, but the one to the belayer. If you are too tired, do a prussic knot low with a sling and step on it. Can't find a sling, that's fine, use your shoelaces like James Bond.

Yeah, when jay said "the climber," I think what he was subtly referencing was "the climber." Wink

Depending on how high they need to get, they can do the "lean back, put your foot on the rope just above your knot, stand up on it while pulling on the rope above it to keep yourself standing up until you're all the way stood up on it" trick, too. First time I saw it I laughed my ass off.

Does anyone that actually knows what I'm talking about know of any name for this? A buddy learned the trick during his latest trip to the Red, but I didn't ask him what it's called...if he even knows.


bill413


Sep 9, 2010, 6:28 AM
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spikeddem wrote:
billcoe_ wrote:
jt512 wrote:
What if the climber is hanging in space?

Jay

Tie if off and walk. Oh, you mean the climber? Classic sportclimber move, pull up on the other rope, not the one which is tied to you, but the one to the belayer. If you are too tired, do a prussic knot low with a sling and step on it. Can't find a sling, that's fine, use your shoelaces like James Bond.

Yeah, when jay said "the climber," I think what he was subtly referencing was "the climber." Wink

Depending on how high they need to get, they can do the "lean back, put your foot on the rope just above your knot, stand up on it while pulling on the rope above it to keep yourself standing up until you're all the way stood up on it" trick, too. First time I saw it I laughed my ass off.

Does anyone that actually knows what I'm talking about know of any name for this? A buddy learned the trick during his latest trip to the Red, but I didn't ask him what it's called...if he even knows.

The hernia?


welle


Sep 9, 2010, 8:54 AM
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sspssp wrote:

In my opinion, 5m is too far from the end. If it was 1 or 2 meters, then it would be much, much, more difficult to confuse it with a middle mark. Additionally, if it was a meter or two from the end, that is still plenty of tail to stop lowering/rapping, but it would definitely act as a "panic stop" don't think about anything else.

5m marks are for those of us who are visually challenged about the distance/length measurements. They are designed for traditional climbing, so the belayer can give the leader a heads up that that they should start looking for a belay ledge to build an anchor. 1-2m would be barely enough to tie in - it will mean that the leader will need to stop right there and start building an anchor or downclimb. Middle marks are also designed with traditional climbing in mind - when you are climbing in a new area or alpine environment, the belayer lets the leader know when the half point is reached, so the leader can visually scout out rappel options.

I don't understand what is so difficult about tying a knot at the end of the rope or tying in the belayer at the end of the rope? On multi-pitch, whether I'm second or a leader, I like the belayer to be tied in before leader leaves the ground anyway. It's always good to have a second pair of eyes double check your system.


spikeddem


Sep 9, 2010, 10:19 AM
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bill413 wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
billcoe_ wrote:
jt512 wrote:
What if the climber is hanging in space?

Jay

Tie if off and walk. Oh, you mean the climber? Classic sportclimber move, pull up on the other rope, not the one which is tied to you, but the one to the belayer. If you are too tired, do a prussic knot low with a sling and step on it. Can't find a sling, that's fine, use your shoelaces like James Bond.

Yeah, when jay said "the climber," I think what he was subtly referencing was "the climber." Wink

Depending on how high they need to get, they can do the "lean back, put your foot on the rope just above your knot, stand up on it while pulling on the rope above it to keep yourself standing up until you're all the way stood up on it" trick, too. First time I saw it I laughed my ass off.

Does anyone that actually knows what I'm talking about know of any name for this? A buddy learned the trick during his latest trip to the Red, but I didn't ask him what it's called...if he even knows.

The hernia?

I may not have described it entirely accurately, but the technique itself is actually extremely ballin' and WAY easier and faster than boinking.

Don't hate it until you've tried it (or at least seen it demonstrated!). Cool


bearbreeder


Sep 9, 2010, 11:44 AM
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best of luck to your the OP and his partner ...

i dont see any good reason not to tie the end of the rope ... to the bag, harness or just tie a knot for single pitch

accident like these are easily preventable

thanks


sspssp


Sep 12, 2010, 12:04 PM
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welle wrote:
sspssp wrote:

In my opinion, 5m is too far from the end. If it was 1 or 2 meters, then it would be much, much, more difficult to confuse it with a middle mark. Additionally, if it was a meter or two from the end, that is still plenty of tail to stop lowering/rapping, but it would definitely act as a "panic stop" don't think about anything else.

5m marks are for those of us who are visually challenged about the distance/length measurements. They are designed for traditional climbing, so the belayer can give the leader a heads up that that they should start looking for a belay ledge to build an anchor. 1-2m would be barely enough to tie in - it will mean that the leader will need to stop right there and start building an anchor or downclimb. Middle marks are also designed with traditional climbing in mind - when you are climbing in a new area or alpine environment, the belayer lets the leader know when the half point is reached, so the leader can visually scout out rappel options.

I don't understand what is so difficult about tying a knot at the end of the rope or tying in the belayer at the end of the rope? On multi-pitch, whether I'm second or a leader, I like the belayer to be tied in before leader leaves the ground anyway. It's always good to have a second pair of eyes double check your system.

I know that 5m is with thinking about the leader setting up the belay. But if this is the point, it is too short. By the time there is only 5m left, the belayer can usually tell that and 5m isn't always enough to find a good belay. If that is the reason, I would say 10m would be better. For the belayer, it is difficult to tell 10m of rope from 20m when it is flaked. 10m gives the leader more options for finding a good belay spot (without downclimbing).

Sure the middle mark lets you know if you can lower the climber. But I use mine just as often for multiple raps to find where to locate the rope on the anchor.

Regarding tieing a knot in the end. What is so hard about looking for traffic before changing lanes? Until somebody forgets. What is so hard about stopping at red lights? Until someone cluelessly drives through it. What is so hard about doubling the harness back? Until someone forgets. What is so hard about having the belayer tie into the rope? Until someone forgets.

Backup systems are called a backup for a reason. A mark a meter or two from the end would be one more backup that would prevent a few poor sobs from making a dreadful mistake.


(This post was edited by sspssp on Sep 12, 2010, 12:05 PM)


Partner j_ung


Sep 12, 2010, 1:40 PM
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sspssp wrote:
Backup systems are called a backup for a reason. A mark a meter or two from the end would be one more backup that would prevent a few poor sobs from making a dreadful mistake.

End marks have also contributed to fatal accidents when people mistook them for middle marks.

Edit: although, a mark meter or two from the end probably wouldn't create the same situation.


(This post was edited by j_ung on Sep 12, 2010, 1:40 PM)


camhead


Sep 12, 2010, 2:09 PM
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Uh, sooo... does anyone know what route this was on?


acorneau


Sep 12, 2010, 5:49 PM
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Someone should start making a bi-weave rope with 5m marks.

That way there is no way to mistake an end mark as the middle, and you get to have "you're getting to the end of your rope" marks.

I just made some company a million dollars. I want my royalty check!


dynosore


Sep 12, 2010, 6:29 PM
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I always tie in; however I find it very disturbing how often people don't notice they are running out of rope. I don't want a belayer that doesn't notice this....


mojomonkey


Sep 13, 2010, 6:04 AM
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acorneau wrote:
Someone should start making a bi-weave rope with 5m marks.

That way there is no way to mistake an end mark as the middle, and you get to have "you're getting to the end of your rope" marks.

I just made some company a million dollars. I want my royalty check!

That won't help with someone who is unfamiliar with the rope (using a partner's), and didn't know/notice they should be looking for a weave change.


socalclimber


Sep 13, 2010, 7:58 AM
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As far as what do I do when the knot hits the device?

Escape the belay and go for beer...


markc


Sep 13, 2010, 10:33 AM
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j_ung wrote:
sspssp wrote:
Backup systems are called a backup for a reason. A mark a meter or two from the end would be one more backup that would prevent a few poor sobs from making a dreadful mistake.

End marks have also contributed to fatal accidents when people mistook them for middle marks.

Edit: although, a mark meter or two from the end probably wouldn't create the same situation.

A mark in the last meter or two would be less likely to be confused with a middlemark, but I don't know if that would be enough time to see the mark, process the meaning, and brake.

In an earlier discussion, someone suggested dying the last 15' or so solid black. Unless it's something that distinctive, I have no interest in end-marks.


socalclimber


Sep 13, 2010, 12:17 PM
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"A mark a meter or two from the end would be one more backup that would prevent a few poor sobs from making a dreadful mistake. "

You're funny. "End" markers have already been attributed to one death as it is. I would not be surprised to learn there have been more mistakes thanks to these "comfort" markers.

I've said it before, STOP relying on markers, and start paying attention. Close the system. Otherwise, your only other choice to stay "safe" is in the gym we you mostly likely belong.


welle


Sep 13, 2010, 12:33 PM
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sspssp wrote:

I know that 5m is with thinking about the leader setting up the belay. But if this is the point, it is too short. By the time there is only 5m left, the belayer can usually tell that and 5m isn't always enough to find a good belay. If that is the reason, I would say 10m would be better. For the belayer, it is difficult to tell 10m of rope from 20m when it is flaked. 10m gives the leader more options for finding a good belay spot (without downclimbing).

are you visualizing what 10m are? It is almost 33 feet, some climbs are that tall. And having end-marks that(!!) close to the center of the rope will make it even more dangerous.

1m would be only enough to tie in to the harness.

sspssp wrote:
Backup systems are called a backup for a reason. A mark a meter or two from the end would be one more backup that would prevent a few poor sobs from making a dreadful mistake.

"Backup" systems need to be by definition redundant. I don't see any redundancy in some visual mark at end of the rope relying on presumed attention of the belayer. A true backup would be a knot tied in or a second belayer.

Regardless, relying on the rope markers gives a false sense of security. If the belayer hasn't noticed the middle-mark passing through the belay device when the leader was climbing (and thus alerting of the possible issues with lowering off), why would one assume they would notice the end marks?


socalclimber


Sep 13, 2010, 12:34 PM
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Snipped out some stuff.

robdotcalm wrote:

Socal wrote: « I cannot stress enough how important it is to close the system when top roping. I don't care if there is 40 feet of excess rope laying on the ground…This is one of my (many) lessons I teach when guiding..close the system… even when there is a an excess of rope on the ground… »

Not all guides are so wise. Last October, I had a day of guided climbing at Yosemite. Near the end of a day that had gone fine, the guide set up a top rope. Before I started to climb, I asked him to tie a knot in the rope. He said it wasn’t necessary as he always knew where the end of the rope was. I ceremoniously tied a big knot in the rope and told him that me feel more comfortable.

Cheers,
Rob.calm

I understand your sentiment, and I also understand the guides position. YMS does not hire flakes for guides. The biggest reason I do what I do is to ensure that beginner and intermediate clients start to think this way. Every guide has their own style of teaching. I work from a basic set of standards and rules, then I add too them as I see fit. Usually this involves discussions with my fellow guides and what their opinions are. Believe me, my fellow guides here in Josh have a ton more time and experience than I do. I respect their opinions. I don't take them as the letter of law as much as a good sound advice.

One other thing I do is to inform my clients in the beginning to feel free to question what I am teaching/doing. THEY ARE ALWAYS ENCOURAGED TO CONFRONT ME IF THEY ARE UNCOMFORTABLE OR IN DISAGREEMENT.

The only time I take exception is when I know I'm correct, and our safety is at risk.

THEN I RULE. PERIOD.

Don't like it, go home.


(This post was edited by socalclimber on Sep 13, 2010, 12:36 PM)


socalclimber


Sep 13, 2010, 12:49 PM
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welle wrote:
sspssp wrote:

I know that 5m is with thinking about the leader setting up the belay. But if this is the point, it is too short. By the time there is only 5m left, the belayer can usually tell that and 5m isn't always enough to find a good belay. If that is the reason, I would say 10m would be better. For the belayer, it is difficult to tell 10m of rope from 20m when it is flaked. 10m gives the leader more options for finding a good belay spot (without downclimbing).

are you visualizing what 10m are? It is almost 33 feet, some climbs are that tall. And having end-marks that(!!) close to the center of the rope will make it even more dangerous.

1m would be only enough to tie in to the harness.

sspssp wrote:
Backup systems are called a backup for a reason. A mark a meter or two from the end would be one more backup that would prevent a few poor sobs from making a dreadful mistake.

"Backup" systems need to be by definition redundant. I don't see any redundancy in some visual mark at end of the rope relying on presumed attention of the belayer. A true backup would be a knot tied in or a second belayer.

Regardless, relying on the rope markers gives a false sense of security. If the belayer hasn't noticed the middle-mark passing through the belay device when the leader was climbing (and thus alerting of the possible issues with lowering off), why would one assume they would notice the end marks?

Unfortunately, this will be lost on the bulk of people on this site. They are gear happy, middle mark happy. Anything but taking any responsibility for their lack of experience and accountability.

Yes, very experienced climbers with decades of time under their belts screw up. But, when you look at the bulk of the accidents these days, it ain't 20+ year veteran climbers.

Expect another dozen or more responses informing all of us about the benefits of middle marks, rope marks, powdered glass shards embedded in the rope to remind us of how much rope is either in or out of the system and the benefits. They will post anything that will absolve them of their own incompetence.

BTW, I commend the OP for standing up, and giving a straight forward, no bullshit report.

Good for them!


iknowfear


Sep 13, 2010, 2:27 PM
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acorneau wrote:
Someone should start making a bi-weave rope with 5m marks.

That way there is no way to mistake an end mark as the middle, and you get to have "you're getting to the end of your rope" marks.

I just made some company a million dollars. I want my royalty check!

sorry. mammut used to make a triodess http://www.justropes.com/...tegory.aspx?catid=50. looks like they stopped. i doubt it was because they made too much money with it...


Partner robdotcalm


Sep 13, 2010, 2:46 PM
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socalclimber wrote:
Snipped out some stuff.

robdotcalm wrote:

Socal wrote: « I cannot stress enough how important it is to close the system when top roping. I don't care if there is 40 feet of excess rope laying on the ground…This is one of my (many) lessons I teach when guiding..close the system… even when there is a an excess of rope on the ground… »

Not all guides are so wise. Last October, I had a day of guided climbing at Yosemite. Near the end of a day that had gone fine, the guide set up a top rope. Before I started to climb, I asked him to tie a knot in the rope. He said it wasn’t necessary as he always knew where the end of the rope was. I ceremoniously tied a big knot in the rope and told him that me feel more comfortable.

Cheers,
Rob.calm

I understand your sentiment, and I also understand the guides position..

I think I understood the guide's position, and it was inappropriate, especially in a situation where the guide is looked to as an authority figure.

R.c


socalclimber


Sep 13, 2010, 3:23 PM
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Point taken!


sspssp


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socalclimber wrote:
welle wrote:
sspssp wrote:

I know that 5m is with thinking about the leader setting up the belay. But if this is the point, it is too short. By the time there is only 5m left, the belayer can usually tell that and 5m isn't always enough to find a good belay. If that is the reason, I would say 10m would be better. For the belayer, it is difficult to tell 10m of rope from 20m when it is flaked. 10m gives the leader more options for finding a good belay spot (without downclimbing).

are you visualizing what 10m are? It is almost 33 feet, some climbs are that tall. And having end-marks that(!!) close to the center of the rope will make it even more dangerous.

1m would be only enough to tie in to the harness.

Regardless, relying on the rope markers gives a false sense of security. If the belayer hasn't noticed the middle-mark passing through the belay device when the leader was climbing (and thus alerting of the possible issues with lowering off), why would one assume they would notice the end marks?

Unfortunately, this will be lost on the bulk of people on this site. They are gear happy, middle mark happy. Anything but taking any responsibility for their lack of experience and accountability.

Yes, very experienced climbers with decades of time under their belts screw up. But, when you look at the bulk of the accidents these days, it ain't 20+ year veteran climbers.

Expect another dozen or more responses informing all of us about the benefits of middle marks, rope marks, powdered glass shards embedded in the rope to remind us of how much rope is either in or out of the system and the benefits. They will post anything that will absolve them of their own incompetence.

Having a mark 10m from the end would be easier to confuse for a middle mark. However, I don't actually use any ropes with middle marks. All of the ropes I use are bi-color so the middle is easy to tell. But for those that don't use bi-color, I agree it would be easier to confuse for a middle mark.

Yes I know what 30 feet is. I climb plenty of easy, alpinish types climbs. When my partner tells me I have 10m left (we have added a 10 meter mark to our lead ropes) I have a good since of how far I have left before setting up an anchor.

If the end mark is a piece of thread, you don't have to "see it". You feel it pass through your hand and you feel the "bump" as it passes through the belay device. So I think it would catch most peoples attention even if they weren't paying attention. An end mark a meter from the end is to keep you from lowering/rapping off the end. If you are tied into the end, then obviously you are not going to do either of those.

As far as incompetence goes... Let'us get rid of all the safety gear on power tools. Only an idiot would cut their hand off on a table saw. Let's get rid of airbags. Let quit double checking each other since only an idiot would not tie-in/double back correctly in the first place. Let's go back to swami-belts and hip belays, since only an idiot would drop a leader.

If you have this attitude, may I thoughtfully suggest that you start reading Accidents in North American Mountaineering and have a little humbler attitude about safety.

I'm two years shy of being a "20-year veteran". I don't expect to ever need to rely on an end mark a meter or two from the end to keep from lowering/rapping off the end. But I think overall it would add to safety and if I could purchase ropes with this for a minor increase in cost, I would.

cheers


(This post was edited by sspssp on Sep 13, 2010, 5:11 PM)


socalclimber


Sep 13, 2010, 5:19 PM
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Re: [sspssp] Accident while lowering at City of Rocks [In reply to]
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sspssp wrote:

....

If you have this attitude, may I thoughtfully suggest that you start reading Accidents in North American Mountaineering and have a little humbler attitude about safety.

cheers

I ran the park service SAR team for over 5 years. I've packed more than my fair share of climbers into helicopters and dealt with the grieving partners and family members as well as being involved in the accident analysis.

The accidents that I responded to like this one could have been prevented 100% by closing the system. Period.


(This post was edited by socalclimber on Sep 13, 2010, 5:21 PM)


acorneau


Sep 13, 2010, 5:54 PM
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Re: [iknowfear] Accident while lowering at City of Rocks [In reply to]
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iknowfear wrote:
sorry. mammut used to make a triodess http://www.justropes.com/...tegory.aspx?catid=50. looks like they stopped. i doubt it was because they made too much money with it...


"the last 7 meters of each end of the rope is clearly marked by a change of sheath weave pattern, similar to the midpoint of the rope."


See, that's the problem. The "end" marks are the same as the middle mark.

In my suggestion the middle mark is a change in sheath pattern and the end mark is a black mark on the rope... two completely different indicators that you can't mistake for the other.

[edit for correction, bolded]


(This post was edited by acorneau on Sep 14, 2010, 4:54 AM)


socalclimber


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Re: [acorneau] Accident while lowering at City of Rocks [In reply to]
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acorneau wrote:
iknowfear wrote:
sorry. mammut used to make a triodess http://www.justropes.com/...tegory.aspx?catid=50. looks like they stopped. i doubt it was because they made too much money with it...


"the last 7 meters of each end of the rope is clearly marked by a change of sheath weave pattern, similar to the midpoint of the rope."


See, that's the problem. The "end" marks are the same as the middle mark.

In my suggestion the middle mark is a change in sheath pattern and the end mark is a black mark on the rope... two completely different indicators that you can mistake for the other.

Yup, all the markers on the rope serve no purpose. I learned from people who have 30+ years of climbing time. People with 40+ El Cap/Wall routes behind them, more first ascents than you can count. NONE of them have ever rapped off the ends of ropes, or dumped their partner on the ground.

Know where you're ends are at all times (pay attention), close the system.


Partner j_ung


Sep 14, 2010, 5:39 AM
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Re: [socalclimber] Accident while lowering at City of Rocks [In reply to]
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socalclimber wrote:
"A mark a meter or two from the end would be one more backup that would prevent a few poor sobs from making a dreadful mistake. "

You're funny. "End" markers have already been attributed to one death as it is. I would not be surprised to learn there have been more mistakes thanks to these "comfort" markers.

I've said it before, STOP relying on markers, and start paying attention. Close the system. Otherwise, your only other choice to stay "safe" is in the gym we you mostly likely belong.

I agree with this, but IMO, a 200-foot rope on a 50-foot single pitch climb (route height picked specifically to make the point) is, for all intents and purposes, closed. It bugged me no end that I could fail an AMGA exam for not tying off the far end in just such a situation.

If the notion of losing an end on lowering is 50-100' feet away from possible, I really don't bother. However, I consider it every single time -- that's my habit.


socalclimber


Sep 14, 2010, 5:58 AM
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j_ung wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
"A mark a meter or two from the end would be one more backup that would prevent a few poor sobs from making a dreadful mistake. "

You're funny. "End" markers have already been attributed to one death as it is. I would not be surprised to learn there have been more mistakes thanks to these "comfort" markers.

I've said it before, STOP relying on markers, and start paying attention. Close the system. Otherwise, your only other choice to stay "safe" is in the gym we you mostly likely belong.

I agree with this, but IMO, a 200-foot rope on a 50-foot single pitch climb (route height picked specifically to make the point) is, for all intents and purposes, closed. It bugged me no end that I could fail an AMGA exam for not tying off the far end in just such a situation.

If the notion of losing an end on lowering is 50-100' feet away from possible, I really don't bother. However, I consider it every single time -- that's my habit.

That's fair enough. I guess a lot of my pedantic babble about closing the system is more aimed at the beginner "experts" who now plague both climbing and the web. Believe me, I don't always do this either when I'm on my own with other experienced climbers. But, yes I do check to make sure there is more than enough rope on the ground.

The big problem here is that climbing has become infected by recreational climbers who really don't have a clue as to what they are doing, thus the end result can be bad. This is why I am so dogmatic about teaching this to my clients. I must repeat it 20 times a day, close the system, always know where the ends of your rope are.

As far as the AMGA test, I have VERY strong feelings for the way they conduct their exams. IMHO YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN FAILED FOR THAT. They love to fail people on their exams and then dress it up as being thorough.

If you totally blow a self rescue scenario or something major fine, but that was obviously not the case with you! Sorry to hear that. People I have talked to who failed for trivial reasons were so pissed about it they never went back to re-test. I don't blame them.


dynosore


Sep 14, 2010, 6:10 AM
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sspssp wrote:
As far as incompetence goes... Let'us get rid of all the safety gear on power tools. Only an idiot would cut their hand off on a table saw. Let's get rid of airbags. Let quit double checking each other since only an idiot would not tie-in/double back correctly in the first place. Let's go back to swami-belts and hip belays, since only an idiot would drop a leader.

This analogy does not work. Wood can kick back in a table saw even though you did everything right (ever hit a nail?). Someone can run into you even though you're a safe driver. BUT, if you are paying attention like you're supposed to you will NEVER run out of rope and drop someone. Not because you're infallible, but because it is such a basic responsibility of the belayer to know how much rope is left.

Think about it this way: I've driven for 19 years and never hit anyone, but I know that doesn't mean I'm a perfect driver, or that I might never cause an accident. But I CAN guarantee this: I won't let go of the steering wheel, close my eyes, and drift into the other lane and hit someone head on. These duties are so fundamental to driving in my mind that it just isn't going to happen. Just like knowing how much rope is left is fundamental to belaying. People clearly aren't taking belaying responsibility seriously, and we've all seen it many times. I won't climb with those people, period. My 2c.


Partner j_ung


Sep 14, 2010, 7:23 AM
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Re: [socalclimber] Accident while lowering at City of Rocks [In reply to]
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socalclimber wrote:
j_ung wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
"A mark a meter or two from the end would be one more backup that would prevent a few poor sobs from making a dreadful mistake. "

You're funny. "End" markers have already been attributed to one death as it is. I would not be surprised to learn there have been more mistakes thanks to these "comfort" markers.

I've said it before, STOP relying on markers, and start paying attention. Close the system. Otherwise, your only other choice to stay "safe" is in the gym we you mostly likely belong.

I agree with this, but IMO, a 200-foot rope on a 50-foot single pitch climb (route height picked specifically to make the point) is, for all intents and purposes, closed. It bugged me no end that I could fail an AMGA exam for not tying off the far end in just such a situation.

If the notion of losing an end on lowering is 50-100' feet away from possible, I really don't bother. However, I consider it every single time -- that's my habit.

That's fair enough. I guess a lot of my pedantic babble about closing the system is more aimed at the beginner "experts" who now plague both climbing and the web. Believe me, I don't always do this either when I'm on my own with other experienced climbers. But, yes I do check to make sure there is more than enough rope on the ground.

The big problem here is that climbing has become infected by recreational climbers who really don't have a clue as to what they are doing, thus the end result can be bad. This is why I am so dogmatic about teaching this to my clients. I must repeat it 20 times a day, close the system, always know where the ends of your rope are.

As far as the AMGA test, I have VERY strong feelings for the way they conduct their exams. IMHO YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN FAILED FOR THAT. They love to fail people on their exams and then dress it up as being thorough.

If you totally blow a self rescue scenario or something major fine, but that was obviously not the case with you! Sorry to hear that. People I have talked to who failed for trivial reasons were so pissed about it they never went back to re-test. I don't blame them.

Oh, I didn't fail it. I closed the system just as required, but not without sufficient grumbling. Laugh


socalclimber


Sep 14, 2010, 7:34 AM
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Re: [dynosore] Accident while lowering at City of Rocks [In reply to]
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dynosore wrote:
sspssp wrote:
As far as incompetence goes... Let'us get rid of all the safety gear on power tools. Only an idiot would cut their hand off on a table saw. Let's get rid of airbags. Let quit double checking each other since only an idiot would not tie-in/double back correctly in the first place. Let's go back to swami-belts and hip belays, since only an idiot would drop a leader.

This analogy does not work. Wood can kick back in a table saw even though you did everything right (ever hit a nail?). Someone can run into you even though you're a safe driver. BUT, if you are paying attention like you're supposed to you will NEVER run out of rope and drop someone. Not because you're infallible, but because it is such a basic responsibility of the belayer to know how much rope is left.

Think about it this way: I've driven for 19 years and never hit anyone, but I know that doesn't mean I'm a perfect driver, or that I might never cause an accident. But I CAN guarantee this: I won't let go of the steering wheel, close my eyes, and drift into the other lane and hit someone head on. These duties are so fundamental to driving in my mind that it just isn't going to happen. Just like knowing how much rope is left is fundamental to belaying. People clearly aren't taking belaying responsibility seriously, and we've all seen it many times. I won't climb with those people, period. My 2c.

I couldn't agree with you more.


socalclimber


Sep 14, 2010, 7:36 AM
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Re: [j_ung] Accident while lowering at City of Rocks [In reply to]
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j_ung wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
j_ung wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
"A mark a meter or two from the end would be one more backup that would prevent a few poor sobs from making a dreadful mistake. "

You're funny. "End" markers have already been attributed to one death as it is. I would not be surprised to learn there have been more mistakes thanks to these "comfort" markers.

I've said it before, STOP relying on markers, and start paying attention. Close the system. Otherwise, your only other choice to stay "safe" is in the gym we you mostly likely belong.

I agree with this, but IMO, a 200-foot rope on a 50-foot single pitch climb (route height picked specifically to make the point) is, for all intents and purposes, closed. It bugged me no end that I could fail an AMGA exam for not tying off the far end in just such a situation.

If the notion of losing an end on lowering is 50-100' feet away from possible, I really don't bother. However, I consider it every single time -- that's my habit.

That's fair enough. I guess a lot of my pedantic babble about closing the system is more aimed at the beginner "experts" who now plague both climbing and the web. Believe me, I don't always do this either when I'm on my own with other experienced climbers. But, yes I do check to make sure there is more than enough rope on the ground.

The big problem here is that climbing has become infected by recreational climbers who really don't have a clue as to what they are doing, thus the end result can be bad. This is why I am so dogmatic about teaching this to my clients. I must repeat it 20 times a day, close the system, always know where the ends of your rope are.

As far as the AMGA test, I have VERY strong feelings for the way they conduct their exams. IMHO YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN FAILED FOR THAT. They love to fail people on their exams and then dress it up as being thorough.

If you totally blow a self rescue scenario or something major fine, but that was obviously not the case with you! Sorry to hear that. People I have talked to who failed for trivial reasons were so pissed about it they never went back to re-test. I don't blame them.

Oh, I didn't fail it. I closed the system just as required, but not without sufficient grumbling. Laugh

Oops, sorry. I must have mis-read your post. Which course was this by the way? The Top Rope Mgt. class, now known as the single pitch instructor course?


Partner j_ung


Sep 14, 2010, 7:49 AM
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Re: [socalclimber] Accident while lowering at City of Rocks [In reply to]
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socalclimber wrote:
j_ung wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
j_ung wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
"A mark a meter or two from the end would be one more backup that would prevent a few poor sobs from making a dreadful mistake. "

You're funny. "End" markers have already been attributed to one death as it is. I would not be surprised to learn there have been more mistakes thanks to these "comfort" markers.

I've said it before, STOP relying on markers, and start paying attention. Close the system. Otherwise, your only other choice to stay "safe" is in the gym we you mostly likely belong.

I agree with this, but IMO, a 200-foot rope on a 50-foot single pitch climb (route height picked specifically to make the point) is, for all intents and purposes, closed. It bugged me no end that I could fail an AMGA exam for not tying off the far end in just such a situation.

If the notion of losing an end on lowering is 50-100' feet away from possible, I really don't bother. However, I consider it every single time -- that's my habit.

That's fair enough. I guess a lot of my pedantic babble about closing the system is more aimed at the beginner "experts" who now plague both climbing and the web. Believe me, I don't always do this either when I'm on my own with other experienced climbers. But, yes I do check to make sure there is more than enough rope on the ground.

The big problem here is that climbing has become infected by recreational climbers who really don't have a clue as to what they are doing, thus the end result can be bad. This is why I am so dogmatic about teaching this to my clients. I must repeat it 20 times a day, close the system, always know where the ends of your rope are.

As far as the AMGA test, I have VERY strong feelings for the way they conduct their exams. IMHO YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN FAILED FOR THAT. They love to fail people on their exams and then dress it up as being thorough.

If you totally blow a self rescue scenario or something major fine, but that was obviously not the case with you! Sorry to hear that. People I have talked to who failed for trivial reasons were so pissed about it they never went back to re-test. I don't blame them.

Oh, I didn't fail it. I closed the system just as required, but not without sufficient grumbling. Laugh

Oops, sorry. I must have mis-read your post. Which course was this by the way? The Top Rope Mgt. class, now known as the single pitch instructor course?

Yeah, that's the one. The cert is required for leading groups and guiding solo at the New.


socalclimber


Sep 14, 2010, 8:00 AM
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j_ung wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
j_ung wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
j_ung wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
"A mark a meter or two from the end would be one more backup that would prevent a few poor sobs from making a dreadful mistake. "

You're funny. "End" markers have already been attributed to one death as it is. I would not be surprised to learn there have been more mistakes thanks to these "comfort" markers.

I've said it before, STOP relying on markers, and start paying attention. Close the system. Otherwise, your only other choice to stay "safe" is in the gym we you mostly likely belong.

I agree with this, but IMO, a 200-foot rope on a 50-foot single pitch climb (route height picked specifically to make the point) is, for all intents and purposes, closed. It bugged me no end that I could fail an AMGA exam for not tying off the far end in just such a situation.

If the notion of losing an end on lowering is 50-100' feet away from possible, I really don't bother. However, I consider it every single time -- that's my habit.

That's fair enough. I guess a lot of my pedantic babble about closing the system is more aimed at the beginner "experts" who now plague both climbing and the web. Believe me, I don't always do this either when I'm on my own with other experienced climbers. But, yes I do check to make sure there is more than enough rope on the ground.

The big problem here is that climbing has become infected by recreational climbers who really don't have a clue as to what they are doing, thus the end result can be bad. This is why I am so dogmatic about teaching this to my clients. I must repeat it 20 times a day, close the system, always know where the ends of your rope are.

As far as the AMGA test, I have VERY strong feelings for the way they conduct their exams. IMHO YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN FAILED FOR THAT. They love to fail people on their exams and then dress it up as being thorough.

If you totally blow a self rescue scenario or something major fine, but that was obviously not the case with you! Sorry to hear that. People I have talked to who failed for trivial reasons were so pissed about it they never went back to re-test. I don't blame them.

Oh, I didn't fail it. I closed the system just as required, but not without sufficient grumbling. Laugh

Oops, sorry. I must have mis-read your post. Which course was this by the way? The Top Rope Mgt. class, now known as the single pitch instructor course?

Yeah, that's the one. The cert is required for leading groups and guiding solo at the New.

Yup, that appears to be the norm for most guide schools these days. Hopefully the AMGA has stricter guide lines for who they let take the course BEFORE they take their money. When it was the Top Rope Mgt. class, they'd let anybody take it. I ran into so many people who had their super secret AMGA decoder ring from that class that had no business teaching anything.

Glad it worked out for you.

Fortunately I don't have to mess with all that. My boss was in the very first AMGA class ever offered along with another friend and fellow guide. He came to me, not the other way around. I asked about the certs and he said "what I care about is do you know what you are doing. I wouldn't be calling you if I thought otherwise."


socalclimber


Sep 14, 2010, 8:02 AM
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Oh, I should be honest and state that I have a very selfish reason for my pedantic ways, nothing will end a guides career faster than a client getting injured or killed.

Not on my watch.


jt512


Sep 14, 2010, 11:22 AM
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j_ung wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
"A mark a meter or two from the end would be one more backup that would prevent a few poor sobs from making a dreadful mistake. "

You're funny. "End" markers have already been attributed to one death as it is. I would not be surprised to learn there have been more mistakes thanks to these "comfort" markers.

I've said it before, STOP relying on markers, and start paying attention. Close the system. Otherwise, your only other choice to stay "safe" is in the gym we you mostly likely belong.

I agree with this, but IMO, a 200-foot rope on a 50-foot single pitch climb (route height picked specifically to make the point) is, for all intents and purposes, closed. It bugged me no end that I could fail an AMGA exam for not tying off the far end in just such a situation.

If the notion of losing an end on lowering is 50-100' feet away from possible, I really don't bother. However, I consider it every single time -- that's my habit.

So it took about 100 posts, but someone finally said something realistic.

This thread has demonstrated a complete disconnect between theory and practice. A handful of climbers preaching that we should always knot the end of the rope (or otherwise "close" the system), on the one hand, and the reality that, on a single-pitch sport climb, almost no one ever does. Yes, "closing" the system would prevent 100% of accidents caused by lowering off with too short a rope. But the practical problem about preaching that we must always "close the system" is that (on single-pitch sport climbs) it's rarely actually useful. Even if every climber were taught to always do it, I predict that the practice would still extinguish itself in most climbers. Some day the climber would look up at his 50-foot sport route, down at his 200-foot rope, and say, "Fuck it. I'm not going to bother with the knot."

Just as in rappelling, in lowering, the answer to the too-short rope problem is not "always knot the end(s)." It's "always pay attention." Know the length of your rope, the height of the climb, and how to divide by 2. Then, put a knot in the end of your rope when there won't be a comfortable safety margin of rope left over when the climber returns to the ground. Always take into consideration that the belayer may not lower you from the exact position they belayed you (many walk back from the wall, for instance) and that you may not be lowered directly down the route you climbed.

Jay


socalclimber


Sep 14, 2010, 4:25 PM
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Re: [jt512] Accident while lowering at City of Rocks [In reply to]
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I disagree. There has been lots of reality in this thread. For the most part, it's clear that people are A) incapable of taking their job as a belayer/partner seriously, B) they are incapable of estimating the length of a single pitch route, C) incapable of judging or paying attention to how much rope is in use, and D) a blind reliance on things like middle marks and 10 meter marks to do their jobs for them.

Therefore, there is only one answer, close the fucking system. Otherwise, stay at home.

How many times in your 20+ years have you dropped someone? My guess, none. Why is that? You pay attention to what is going on, you checked the length of the route.


jt512


Sep 14, 2010, 5:09 PM
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Re: [socalclimber] Accident while lowering at City of Rocks [In reply to]
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socalclimber wrote:

Therefore, there is only one answer, close the fucking system. Otherwise, stay at home.

My point was that no matter how strongly you preach this, it isn't going to happen. I know a lot of sport climbers, and have observed many others. You know how many "close the system" every time on a single-pitch sport route? None.

So, if the reality is that sport climber's aren't going to always "close the system," then isn't it pointless to keep telling them to do so. Wouldn't it make more sense to emphasize the importance of knowing the length of the route and their rope, and paying attention to where the end of the rope is while lowering (which, incidentally, is something both the lowerer and the loweree should do)?

Edit: While I'm on the subject, if you get lowered off the end of your rope, then four mistakes happened: (1) you didn't tie a knot in the rope, (2) neither did your partner, (3) you didn't pay attention to where the end of the rope was while being lowered, and (4) neither did your partner.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Sep 14, 2010, 5:12 PM)


redlude97


Sep 14, 2010, 5:19 PM
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Re: [jt512] Accident while lowering at City of Rocks [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
socalclimber wrote:

Therefore, there is only one answer, close the fucking system. Otherwise, stay at home.

My point was that no matter how strongly you preach this, it isn't going to happen. I know a lot of sport climbers, and have observed many others. You know how many "close the system" every time on a single-pitch sport route? None.

So, if the reality is that sport climber's aren't going to always "close the system," then isn't it pointless to keep telling them to do so. Wouldn't it make more sense to emphasize the importance of knowing the length of the route and their rope, and paying attention to where the end of the rope is while lowering (which, incidentally, is something both the lowerer and the loweree should do)?

Edit: While I'm on the subject, if you get lowered off the end of your rope, then four mistakes happened: (1) you didn't tie a knot in the rope, (2) neither did your partner, (3) you didn't pay attention to where the end of the rope was while being lowered, and (4) neither did your partner.

Jay
At the same time many single pitch sport climbers use rope bags/tarps so they "close the system" unknowingly


bill413


Sep 14, 2010, 5:37 PM
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Re: [redlude97] Accident while lowering at City of Rocks [In reply to]
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redlude97 wrote:
At the same time many single pitch sport climbers use rope bags/tarps so they "close the system" unknowingly

Or knowingly.


bill413


Sep 14, 2010, 5:45 PM
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Re: [jt512] Accident while lowering at City of Rocks [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
Edit: While I'm on the subject, if you get lowered off the end of your rope, then four mistakes happened: (1) you didn't tie a knot in the rope, (2) neither did your partner, (3) you didn't pay attention to where the end of the rope was while being lowered, and (4) neither did your partner.

5) You and your belayer did not assess the length of the route & the length of the rope. (JT, it's on your list)


Recently I was lowered off the end of the rope. Luckily, my landing was such that there was no big injury. I don't blame my belayer any more than I blame myself (we both made mistake 5 (&1 & 2)). I'm posting this to emphasize that it was as much my mistake as her's (especially as I was the more experienced climber).

I have climbed since with that person as my belayer, quite comfortably.


socalclimber


Sep 14, 2010, 6:09 PM
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Re: [jt512] Accident while lowering at City of Rocks [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
socalclimber wrote:

Therefore, there is only one answer, close the fucking system. Otherwise, stay at home.

My point was that no matter how strongly you preach this, it isn't going to happen. I know a lot of sport climbers, and have observed many others. You know how many "close the system" every time on a single-pitch sport route? None.

So, if the reality is that sport climber's aren't going to always "close the system," then isn't it pointless to keep telling them to do so. Wouldn't it make more sense to emphasize the importance of knowing the length of the route and their rope, and paying attention to where the end of the rope is while lowering (which, incidentally, is something both the lowerer and the loweree should do)?

Edit: While I'm on the subject, if you get lowered off the end of your rope, then four mistakes happened: (1) you didn't tie a knot in the rope, (2) neither did your partner, (3) you didn't pay attention to where the end of the rope was while being lowered, and (4) neither did your partner.

Jay

First off, points taken, and I do understand this. If at least one person listens, then all the better.

Will it change anything about my approach, or how I teach my classes/clients? Not on your life, or mine for that matter.


jt512


Sep 14, 2010, 6:34 PM
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Re: [redlude97] Accident while lowering at City of Rocks [In reply to]
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redlude97 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
socalclimber wrote:

Therefore, there is only one answer, close the fucking system. Otherwise, stay at home.

My point was that no matter how strongly you preach this, it isn't going to happen. I know a lot of sport climbers, and have observed many others. You know how many "close the system" every time on a single-pitch sport route? None.

So, if the reality is that sport climber's aren't going to always "close the system," then isn't it pointless to keep telling them to do so. Wouldn't it make more sense to emphasize the importance of knowing the length of the route and their rope, and paying attention to where the end of the rope is while lowering (which, incidentally, is something both the lowerer and the loweree should do)?

Edit: While I'm on the subject, if you get lowered off the end of your rope, then four mistakes happened: (1) you didn't tie a knot in the rope, (2) neither did your partner, (3) you didn't pay attention to where the end of the rope was while being lowered, and (4) neither did your partner.

Jay
At the same time many single pitch sport climbers use rope bags/tarps so they "close the system" unknowingly

I can count the sport climbers I've met on one hand who routinely tie the belayer end of the rope into the rope bag.

Jay


socalclimber


Sep 14, 2010, 6:44 PM
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Re: [jt512] Accident while lowering at City of Rocks [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
socalclimber wrote:

Therefore, there is only one answer, close the fucking system. Otherwise, stay at home.

My point was that no matter how strongly you preach this, it isn't going to happen. I know a lot of sport climbers, and have observed many others. You know how many "close the system" every time on a single-pitch sport route? None.

So, if the reality is that sport climber's aren't going to always "close the system," then isn't it pointless to keep telling them to do so. Wouldn't it make more sense to emphasize the importance of knowing the length of the route and their rope, and paying attention to where the end of the rope is while lowering (which, incidentally, is something both the lowerer and the loweree should do)?

Edit: While I'm on the subject, if you get lowered off the end of your rope, then four mistakes happened: (1) you didn't tie a knot in the rope, (2) neither did your partner, (3) you didn't pay attention to where the end of the rope was while being lowered, and (4) neither did your partner.

Jay
At the same time many single pitch sport climbers use rope bags/tarps so they "close the system" unknowingly

I can count the sport climbers I've met on one hand who routinely tie the belayer end of the rope into the rope bag.

Jay

Let us not forget, while these accidents tend to be in sport climbing areas, it applies to trad routes as well.


(This post was edited by socalclimber on Sep 14, 2010, 6:45 PM)


jt512


Sep 14, 2010, 7:49 PM
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Re: [socalclimber] Accident while lowering at City of Rocks [In reply to]
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socalclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
socalclimber wrote:

Therefore, there is only one answer, close the fucking system. Otherwise, stay at home.

My point was that no matter how strongly you preach this, it isn't going to happen. I know a lot of sport climbers, and have observed many others. You know how many "close the system" every time on a single-pitch sport route? None.

So, if the reality is that sport climber's aren't going to always "close the system," then isn't it pointless to keep telling them to do so. Wouldn't it make more sense to emphasize the importance of knowing the length of the route and their rope, and paying attention to where the end of the rope is while lowering (which, incidentally, is something both the lowerer and the loweree should do)?

Edit: While I'm on the subject, if you get lowered off the end of your rope, then four mistakes happened: (1) you didn't tie a knot in the rope, (2) neither did your partner, (3) you didn't pay attention to where the end of the rope was while being lowered, and (4) neither did your partner.

Jay
At the same time many single pitch sport climbers use rope bags/tarps so they "close the system" unknowingly

I can count the sport climbers I've met on one hand who routinely tie the belayer end of the rope into the rope bag.

Jay

Let us not forget, while these accidents tend to be in sport climbing areas, it applies to trad routes as well.

Well, trad's a different story. You don't normally lower off in trad climbing. Rather the leader will pull up the slack from the anchors. The second had better be tied-in to the rope so that the leader doesn't pull the rope up too far.

Jay


socalclimber


Sep 14, 2010, 8:01 PM
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Re: [jt512] Accident while lowering at City of Rocks [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
socalclimber wrote:

Therefore, there is only one answer, close the fucking system. Otherwise, stay at home.

My point was that no matter how strongly you preach this, it isn't going to happen. I know a lot of sport climbers, and have observed many others. You know how many "close the system" every time on a single-pitch sport route? None.

So, if the reality is that sport climber's aren't going to always "close the system," then isn't it pointless to keep telling them to do so. Wouldn't it make more sense to emphasize the importance of knowing the length of the route and their rope, and paying attention to where the end of the rope is while lowering (which, incidentally, is something both the lowerer and the loweree should do)?

Edit: While I'm on the subject, if you get lowered off the end of your rope, then four mistakes happened: (1) you didn't tie a knot in the rope, (2) neither did your partner, (3) you didn't pay attention to where the end of the rope was while being lowered, and (4) neither did your partner.

Jay
At the same time many single pitch sport climbers use rope bags/tarps so they "close the system" unknowingly

I can count the sport climbers I've met on one hand who routinely tie the belayer end of the rope into the rope bag.

Jay

Let us not forget, while these accidents tend to be in sport climbing areas, it applies to trad routes as well.

Well, trad's a different story. You don't normally lower off in trad climbing. Rather the leader will pull up the slack from the anchors. The second had better be tied-in to the rope so that the leader doesn't pull the rope up too far.

Jay

Well, yes and no. If it's a pair or maybe three. But with a group in a given area it's not uncommon. Same rules apply.


Partner robdotcalm


Sep 15, 2010, 10:52 AM
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Re: [jt512] Accident while lowering at City of Rocks [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
A handful of climbers preaching that we should always knot the end of the rope ...
Jay

Yep, you’re right were preaching. Here’s some Talmudic wisdom I dispensed over the weekend:

Rabbi Eliezer said to the belayer : “Repent and tie into the rope the day before your partner dies. The belayer asked him, “Does one then know the day on which he will die?” Rabbi Eliezer replied: “All the more reason, you should repent and tie in today, lest your partner die tomorrow”.

Here’s the background. The 10-day period between Rosh Hashanah (New Year’s) and Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement) is a period of reflection and repentance. This past weekend I was on a retreat where we updated old sayings and dicta for the period in a way to make them more meaningful for ourselves. The above is my translation (?) of Rabbi Eliezer’s advice. A more traditional translation is this.

Rabbi Eliezer said: “Repent the day before your death.” His students asked him, “Does then one know on what day he will die?” Rabbi Eliezer replied: “All the more reason he should repent today, lest he die tomorrow.” (Babylonia Talmud, Section Shabbat, 53a).

The non-climbers in the group were amazed that one wouldn’t take such a simple precaution and suggested that if the partner were to die, then at the minimum, the belayer would (in a theological sense) be guilty of negligent homicide. In general, the non-climbers reaction to this was the most interesting since it was so different from the climbers’ reactions.

B’shalom
Reuven


(This post was edited by robdotcalm on Sep 17, 2010, 9:10 AM)


Partner robdotcalm


Sep 15, 2010, 11:09 AM
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Re: [j_ung] Accident while lowering at City of Rocks [In reply to]
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j_ung wrote:

If the notion of losing an end on lowering is 50-100' feet away from possible, I really don't bother. However, I consider it every single time -- that's my habit.

More Preaching. Upstream in this thread, I gave an example of where a death resulted from just this reasoning with a 200 foot rope and a climber to be lowered 40 feet., fatal outcome . You got some bad habits.

If you always tie in when you don’t need to, you will do it when you do need to.

Cheers,
Rob.calm


curt


Sep 15, 2010, 11:16 AM
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Re: [jt512] Accident while lowering at City of Rocks [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
socalclimber wrote:

Therefore, there is only one answer, close the fucking system. Otherwise, stay at home.

My point was that no matter how strongly you preach this, it isn't going to happen. I know a lot of sport climbers, and have observed many others. You know how many "close the system" every time on a single-pitch sport route? None.

So, if the reality is that sport climber's aren't going to always "close the system," then isn't it pointless to keep telling them to do so. Wouldn't it make more sense to emphasize the importance of knowing the length of the route and their rope, and paying attention to where the end of the rope is while lowering (which, incidentally, is something both the lowerer and the loweree should do)?

Edit: While I'm on the subject, if you get lowered off the end of your rope, then four mistakes happened: (1) you didn't tie a knot in the rope, (2) neither did your partner, (3) you didn't pay attention to where the end of the rope was while being lowered, and (4) neither did your partner.

Jay
At the same time many single pitch sport climbers use rope bags/tarps so they "close the system" unknowingly

I can count the sport climbers I've met on one hand who routinely tie the belayer end of the rope into the rope bag.

Jay

Let us not forget, while these accidents tend to be in sport climbing areas, it applies to trad routes as well.

Well, trad's a different story. You don't normally lower off in trad climbing. Rather the leader will pull up the slack from the anchors. The second had better be tied-in to the rope so that the leader doesn't pull the rope up too far.

Jay

That's true for multi-pitch trad, but not necessarily for single pitch routes. Sometimes it's more convenient to lower and belay the second from the ground.

Curt


jt512


Sep 15, 2010, 1:32 PM
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Re: [curt] Accident while lowering at City of Rocks [In reply to]
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curt wrote:
jt512 wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
socalclimber wrote:

Therefore, there is only one answer, close the fucking system. Otherwise, stay at home.

My point was that no matter how strongly you preach this, it isn't going to happen. I know a lot of sport climbers, and have observed many others. You know how many "close the system" every time on a single-pitch sport route? None.

So, if the reality is that sport climber's aren't going to always "close the system," then isn't it pointless to keep telling them to do so. Wouldn't it make more sense to emphasize the importance of knowing the length of the route and their rope, and paying attention to where the end of the rope is while lowering (which, incidentally, is something both the lowerer and the loweree should do)?

Edit: While I'm on the subject, if you get lowered off the end of your rope, then four mistakes happened: (1) you didn't tie a knot in the rope, (2) neither did your partner, (3) you didn't pay attention to where the end of the rope was while being lowered, and (4) neither did your partner.

Jay
At the same time many single pitch sport climbers use rope bags/tarps so they "close the system" unknowingly

I can count the sport climbers I've met on one hand who routinely tie the belayer end of the rope into the rope bag.

Jay

Let us not forget, while these accidents tend to be in sport climbing areas, it applies to trad routes as well.

Well, trad's a different story. You don't normally lower off in trad climbing. Rather the leader will pull up the slack from the anchors. The second had better be tied-in to the rope so that the leader doesn't pull the rope up too far.

Jay

That's true for multi-pitch trad, but not necessarily for single pitch routes. Sometimes it's more convenient to lower and belay the second from the ground.

Curt

Well, the phrase "single-pitch sport routes and single-pitch trad routes in which it is more convenient to lower and belay the second from the ground" is a bit much. I'm going to stick with the abbreviation "single-pitch sport routes," and rely on the reader's intelligence—albeit a risky practice—to make the inference to applicable trad routes.

Jay


marc801


Sep 15, 2010, 3:04 PM
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Re: [jt512] Accident while lowering at City of Rocks [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
I'm going to stick with the abbreviation "single-pitch sport routes," and rely on the reader's intelligence—albeit a risky practice—to make the inference to applicable trad routes.
Now that's just crazy talk!


socalclimber


Sep 15, 2010, 4:19 PM
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Re: [marc801] Accident while lowering at City of Rocks [In reply to]
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marc801 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
I'm going to stick with the abbreviation "single-pitch sport routes," and rely on the reader's intelligence—albeit a risky practice—to make the inference to applicable trad routes.
Now that's just crazy talk!

Maybe, but it sure is funny as hell.


Partner j_ung


Sep 16, 2010, 8:31 AM
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Re: [robdotcalm] Accident while lowering at City of Rocks [In reply to]
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robdotcalm wrote:
j_ung wrote:

If the notion of losing an end on lowering is 50-100' feet away from possible, I really don't bother. However, I consider it every single time -- that's my habit.

More Preaching. Upstream in this thread, I gave an example of where a death resulted from just this reasoning with a 200 foot rope and a climber to be lowered 40 feet., fatal outcome . You got some bad habits.

If you always tie in when you don’t need to, you will do it when you do need to.

Cheers,
Rob.calm

I don't believe I do have bad habits. If I decided to tie in short (who knows why?) I'd like to think I would re-evaluate the entire situation.


jt512


Sep 16, 2010, 11:02 AM
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Re: [robdotcalm] Accident while lowering at City of Rocks [In reply to]
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robdotcalm wrote:
j_ung wrote:

If the notion of losing an end on lowering is 50-100' feet away from possible, I really don't bother. However, I consider it every single time -- that's my habit.

More Preaching. Upstream in this thread, I gave an example of where a death resulted from just this reasoning with a 200 foot rope and a climber to be lowered 40 feet., fatal outcome . You got some bad habits.

The cause of that accident was the bizarre decision to tie into the middle of the rope.

Jay


Partner robdotcalm


Sep 16, 2010, 7:47 PM
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jt512 wrote:
robdotcalm wrote:
j_ung wrote:

If the notion of losing an end on lowering is 50-100' feet away from possible, I really don't bother. However, I consider it every single time -- that's my habit.

More Preaching. Upstream in this thread, I gave an example of where a death resulted from just this reasoning with a 200 foot rope and a climber to be lowered 40 feet., fatal outcome . You got some bad habits.

The cause of that accident was the bizarre decision to tie into the middle of the rope.

Jay
My rephrasing: A contributing factor to that accident was the bizarre decision to tie into the middle of the rope.

Rob.calm


curt


Sep 16, 2010, 8:43 PM
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robdotcalm wrote:
jt512 wrote:
robdotcalm wrote:
j_ung wrote:

If the notion of losing an end on lowering is 50-100' feet away from possible, I really don't bother. However, I consider it every single time -- that's my habit.

More Preaching. Upstream in this thread, I gave an example of where a death resulted from just this reasoning with a 200 foot rope and a climber to be lowered 40 feet., fatal outcome . You got some bad habits.

The cause of that accident was the bizarre decision to tie into the middle of the rope.

Jay

My rephrasing: A contributing factor to that accident was the bizarre decision to tie into the middle of the rope.

Rob.calm

That and a cheesetit. Cool

Curt


marc801


Sep 16, 2010, 10:56 PM
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Re: [j_ung] Accident while lowering at City of Rocks [In reply to]
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j_ung wrote:
I don't believe I do have bad habits.
Says everyone prior to them or their partner getting seriously injured or killed.


socalclimber


Sep 17, 2010, 5:08 AM
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marc801 wrote:
j_ung wrote:
I don't believe I do have bad habits.
Says everyone prior to them or their partner getting seriously injured or killed.

I think bad habits are inherent in all of us.

By the way, does anybody know how the guy is doing?


camhead


Sep 17, 2010, 7:10 AM
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socalclimber wrote:
marc801 wrote:
j_ung wrote:
I don't believe I do have bad habits.
Says everyone prior to them or their partner getting seriously injured or killed.

I think bad habits are inherent in all of us.

By the way, does anybody know how the guy is doing?

No.

Nobody in here has shown that they know anything about this accident, beyond copying and pasting a thread from another site. No firsthand accounts, no friends of the victims, no discussion of which route it was or anything. A few pages back I asked if anyone knew which route this was on, and was met with silence. I don't think that anyone really cares.

Just the regular speculating and arguing by people with no connection to this accident whatsoever.


Partner rgold


Sep 17, 2010, 7:39 AM
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"The guy" is doing remarkably well considering what happened, but is still seriously banged up. Broken nose, broken ribs, a cracked vertebrae in the neck, shoulder, elbow and knee injuries, forty staples (now just removed) to close a large head wound.

All these injuries are expected to heal in time without surgical intervention, although some physical therapy is called for and has already been started. The neck injury requires wearing a neck brace for perhaps as much as another month, with no driving or working during that period.


socalclimber


Sep 17, 2010, 7:44 AM
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Thanks for the update rgold.

Camhead,

NO! And I quote: "(in order words, the rope was too short to lower him off)". This type of accident has a limited number of causes. Period. They have been covered by myself and a handful of others who know what they are talking about. There is no speculation here what so ever. The preaching is spot on, just close the system.


funnelator


Sep 17, 2010, 8:36 AM
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And also "the guy" has very very extensive experience, as does the belayer. If it can happen to them it can happen to anyone. Overconfidence stalks us all perhaps.

As the OP said and as SoCal says, close the system. As for me, I didn't routinely do so, but after a few conversations with Scott Cosgrove about guides and friends he knew who had dropped people, I changed my ways. Indeed, just a few years ago, in another accident close to home, a long experience guide did drop someone resulting in the client breaking a leg.

Wishing both "the guy" and his belayer a very speedy and full recovery.


(This post was edited by funnelator on Sep 17, 2010, 8:39 AM)


socalclimber


Sep 17, 2010, 8:53 AM
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Re: [funnelator] Accident while lowering at City of Rocks [In reply to]
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funnelator wrote:
And also "the guy" has very very extensive experience, as does the belayer. If it can happen to them it can happen to anyone. Overconfidence stalks us all perhaps.

As the OP said and as SoCal says, close the system. As for me, I didn't routinely do so, but after a few conversations with Scott Cosgrove about guides and friends he knew who had dropped people, I changed my ways. Indeed, just a few years ago, in another accident close to home, a long experience guide did drop someone resulting in the client breaking a leg.

Wishing both "the guy" and his belayer a very speedy and full recovery.

If the client breaking a leg episode was the one down here, I remember it very well. Glad I wasn't the guide.


mim


Sep 17, 2010, 1:55 PM
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Re: [socalclimber] Accident while lowering at City of Rocks [In reply to]
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I am the belayer who saw my beloved hit the rock several times and end up unconscious on the ground, with blood everywhere. This is not an event I wish to anyone - ever.

In my original post that was reposted here, I could have stated the five or six different reasons that would have explained the circumstances of why we, two climbers who have over 50 years of combined climbing experience, suffered such a lapse in safety for this completely preventable accident... but at the end of the day, it really doesn't matter, as the accident happened, and a knot would have saved him from this accident.

Closing the system is just a sound safety measure, regardless of how or what or where you are climbing - it is a habit I wished I had... and will have from now on.


socalclimber


Sep 17, 2010, 2:52 PM
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Re: [mim] Accident while lowering at City of Rocks [In reply to]
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mim wrote:
I am the belayer who saw my beloved hit the rock several times and end up unconscious on the ground, with blood everywhere. This is not an event I wish to anyone - ever.

In my original post that was reposted here, I could have stated the five or six different reasons that would have explained the circumstances of why we, two climbers who have over 50 years of combined climbing experience, suffered such a lapse in safety for this completely preventable accident... but at the end of the day, it really doesn't matter, as the accident happened, and a knot would have saved him from this accident.

Closing the system is just a sound safety measure, regardless of how or what or where you are climbing - it is a habit I wished I had... and will have from now on.

Hi mim, thanks for posting and also thanks for the honest first hand account up front on the accident. Glad to hear your partner is on the mend. Hopefully you will be over time as well. Most people forget or don't realize that there is usually more than one victim in serious accidents. One does not need to be physically injured to suffer.

One of the things that profoundly changed my approach to climbing was the time I spent on a technical SAR team, loading people into choppers and doing accident analysis.

All the best to you and your partner.


(This post was edited by socalclimber on Sep 17, 2010, 2:54 PM)


viciado


Sep 20, 2010, 3:41 AM
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Re: [mim] Accident while lowering at City of Rocks [In reply to]
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Thank you for your graphic and honest reminder that we have to put into practice what we already know.

Whether we choose to tie in or verify that there is enough rope to complete the climb and lower (per jt512 and jung et al), we have to make a conscious application of that decision. We all have our excuses (when we make mistakes) but all the knowledge and experience in the world is useless once the rope leaves the belay device.

I hope that reading your story will help many people be more intentional in applying what they know.


Partner j_ung


Sep 20, 2010, 3:20 PM
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Re: [marc801] Accident while lowering at City of Rocks [In reply to]
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marc801 wrote:
j_ung wrote:
I don't believe I do have bad habits.
Says everyone prior to them or their partner getting seriously injured or killed.

I was speaking, of course, about that one specific habit, and I'll stand by what I wrote.


Forums : Climbing Information : Accident and Incident Analysis

 


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