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Partner robdotcalm


Sep 17, 2010, 11:17 AM
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Grigri mistake, climber decks
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http://www.redriverclimbing.com/....php?f=5&t=13284

Here’s another accident in which the belayer did not use a Grigri properly. The climber was dropped , fractured an ankle bone but hit the belayer’s dog killing the dog.

I only got part of the way through this long thread, but it appears that the most likely cause of the accident was the belayer giving slack and having her hand off the brake end of the rope when the climber fell.

Condolences on the dog and best wishes for the climber's recovery.

Cheers,
Rob.calm


imnotclever


Sep 17, 2010, 11:20 AM
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Was the dog named spot by any chance?


[/camhed]


Arrogant_Bastard


Sep 17, 2010, 11:27 AM
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imnotclever wrote:
Was the dog named spot by any chance?


[/camhed]

You know, I am deeply offended by this. Why would you post such a thing?


cfnubbler


Sep 17, 2010, 11:32 AM
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Re: [Arrogant_Bastard] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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Arrogant_Bastard wrote:
imnotclever wrote:
Was the dog named spot by any chance?


[/camhed]

You know, I am deeply offended by this. Why would you post such a thing?

Yeah, that dog got a ruff break.


socalclimber


Sep 17, 2010, 12:39 PM
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Re: [imnotclever] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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imnotclever wrote:
Was the dog named spot by any chance?


[/camhed]

Sorry for those involved.

But that was funny....

On the other hand this isn't:

"Worse, she said this was the third time it has happened to her."

Jesus....


(This post was edited by socalclimber on Sep 17, 2010, 12:43 PM)


fresh


Sep 17, 2010, 12:53 PM
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condolences to the owners of the dog, that's pretty sad. hope everyone recovers from this.

toad857 posted this:
In reply to:
The accident: The climber moved past the kneebar on reliquary. As he did so, rope was pulled upward with him. The belayer, at this moment, felt a tug on the rope and held down the cam to pay out some slack. At this exact moment the climber, pumped, casually let go and fell without advertisement. Gravity is always there, and is quicker than all of us. By the time she was able to react (i.e., let go of the cam), it was too late to prevent the collision. Belay error was the critical factor in this fall--it could have been prevented with a foolproof technique (that is, do not allow the brake hand to leave the brake rope ever).


cantbuymefriends


Sep 17, 2010, 1:00 PM
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Isn't "See Spot Run" a John Sherman boulder problem...?


cantbuymefriends


Sep 17, 2010, 1:01 PM
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So much for for rumors about animals having a sixth sence for impending danger, I guess.


Arrogant_Bastard


Sep 17, 2010, 1:06 PM
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I'm still confused on how it was the GriGris mistake.


socalclimber


Sep 17, 2010, 1:13 PM
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Arrogant_Bastard wrote:
I'm still confused on how it was the GriGris mistake.

Don't you know by now that it's always the gear's fault?


Gmburns2000


Sep 17, 2010, 1:26 PM
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Arrogant_Bastard wrote:
I'm still confused on how it was the GriGris mistake.

[BS sensor obviously broken]

It seems that the mistake may not have ocurred with another device where taking one's hand off the brake strand is obviously a really bad thing. I believe there are still people who still lead belay with a grigri by taking their hand off the brake strand to feed out rope.

[/broken BS sensor (hopefully so)]


amyas


Sep 17, 2010, 2:40 PM
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very clever


milesenoell


Sep 17, 2010, 2:50 PM
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socalclimber wrote:
imnotclever wrote:
Was the dog named spot by any chance?


[/camhed]

Sorry for those involved.

But that was funny....

On the other hand this isn't:

"Worse, she said this was the third time it has happened to her."

Jesus....

No doubt. This is the THIRD time she'd dropped a climber?! How the hell does she get anyone dumb enough to let her belay them anymore?
e?


jt512


Sep 17, 2010, 2:55 PM
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milesenoell wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
imnotclever wrote:
Was the dog named spot by any chance?


[/camhed]

Sorry for those involved.

But that was funny....

On the other hand this isn't:

"Worse, she said this was the third time it has happened to her."

Jesus....

No doubt. This is the THIRD time she'd dropped a climber?! How the hell does she get anyone dumb enough to let her belay them anymore?
e?

In the original thread, the accuracy of that claim has been called into question.

Jay


dynosore


Sep 17, 2010, 2:58 PM
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Wow. My favorite part of the linked thread is the dude that is defending her, that says he dropped his sister too. But we're a safe bunch of climbers. Sure you are. Evidently the guy that was dropped had dropped someone a couple years ago too. If you have 3 dropping "accidents" in a couple of years among your climbing group, find a different bunch to climb with. Unbelievable.


Colinhoglund


Sep 17, 2010, 3:10 PM
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Re: [socalclimber] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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Not a direct reply to Social-climber, just the information in his post.

Sorry about the dog but . . .
Seriously! When will people learn that a "break assist device" ie Grigri is no substitute for proper belay skills? I'm not going to be naive and say this wouldn't have happened with an ATC or similar, because this group of climbers clearly does not have the collective intelligence to properly use their equipment.

Some people "crusade against the cult of the tricam", but I think I'm going to start the crusade against Gumbies with Grigris. Nice, it even rhymes.

***disclaimer***
The Grigri is a wonderful device in the hands of a well trained belayer.


(This post was edited by Colinhoglund on Sep 17, 2010, 3:11 PM)


socalclimber


Sep 17, 2010, 3:53 PM
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Colinhoglund wrote:
Not a direct reply to Social-climber, just the information in his post.

Sorry about the dog but . . .
Seriously! When will people learn that a "break assist device" ie Grigri is no substitute for proper belay skills? I'm not going to be naive and say this wouldn't have happened with an ATC or similar, because this group of climbers clearly does not have the collective intelligence to properly use their equipment.

Some people "crusade against the cult of the tricam", but I think I'm going to start the crusade against Gumbies with Grigris. Nice, it even rhymes.

***disclaimer***
The Grigri is a wonderful device in the hands of a well trained belayer.

Yup, belay devices don't fail, people do.


johnwesely


Sep 17, 2010, 5:24 PM
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jt512 wrote:
milesenoell wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
imnotclever wrote:
Was the dog named spot by any chance?


[/camhed]

Sorry for those involved.

But that was funny....

On the other hand this isn't:

"Worse, she said this was the third time it has happened to her."

Jesus....

No doubt. This is the THIRD time she'd dropped a climber?! How the hell does she get anyone dumb enough to let her belay them anymore?
e?

In the original thread, the accuracy of that claim has been called into question.

Jay

Jay is right.


nailzz


Sep 17, 2010, 6:01 PM
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dynosore wrote:
Wow. My favorite part of the linked thread is the dude that is defending her, that says he dropped his sister too. But we're a safe bunch of climbers. Sure you are. Evidently the guy that was dropped had dropped someone a couple years ago too. If you have 3 dropping "accidents" in a couple of years among your climbing group, find a different bunch to climb with. sport. Unbelievable.


patto


Sep 17, 2010, 6:05 PM
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That thread is scarily full of incompetence that puts rockclimbing.com to shame. I don't want to go climbing at red river.

"Lets not make this personal, but I do want to learn from this. I have never seen anybody use the technique shown here by Petzl. I'll give it a try tomorrow at the gym.

Right or wrong - most everybody using a gri-gri takes their hand off the brake to feed slack. I can use a gri-gri just like an ATC to slowly feed out rope. I can also loop a few feet of rope and hold the cam with my thumb while keeping my index fingers on the rope - I can feed a few feet quickly this way. But when my climber needs a lot of slack to clip quickly - I take my hand off the brake - BRIEFLY. More importantly, my thumb is only on the cam for the half second in which I am yanking rope out. I am open minded to there being a better way - but lets not claim this method caused this accident. The only way a climber is decking from 50 feet is if you death grip the cam."
Shocked



(This post was edited by patto on Sep 17, 2010, 6:06 PM)


jt512


Sep 17, 2010, 6:13 PM
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patto wrote:
That thread is scarily full of incompetence that puts rockclimbing.com to shame. I don't want to go climbing at red river.

"Lets not make this personal, but I do want to learn from this. I have never seen anybody use the technique shown here by Petzl. I'll give it a try tomorrow at the gym.

Right or wrong - most everybody using a gri-gri takes their hand off the brake to feed slack. I can use a gri-gri just like an ATC to slowly feed out rope. I can also loop a few feet of rope and hold the cam with my thumb while keeping my index fingers on the rope - I can feed a few feet quickly this way. But when my climber needs a lot of slack to clip quickly - I take my hand off the brake - BRIEFLY. More importantly, my thumb is only on the cam for the half second in which I am yanking rope out. I am open minded to there being a better way - but lets not claim this method caused this accident. The only way a climber is decking from 50 feet is if you death grip the cam."
Shocked

I'm going to guess that, since you are shocked by that statement, you don't use a grigri much, if at all, right?

Jay


patto


Sep 17, 2010, 6:23 PM
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jt512 wrote:
I'm going to guess that, since you are shocked by that statement, you don't use a grigri much, if at all, right?

Jay

Shocked

Wrong.

When I use the grigri I never take my hand off the brake to feed slack. Its dangerous as numerous accidents have shown and goes against all common sense of proper belaying.


(This post was edited by patto on Sep 17, 2010, 6:25 PM)


jt512


Sep 17, 2010, 6:32 PM
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patto wrote:
jt512 wrote:
I'm going to guess that, since you are shocked by that statement, you don't use a grigri much, if at all, right?

Jay

Shocked

Wrong.

When I use the grigri I never take my hand off the brake to feed slack. Its dangerous as numerous accidents have shown and goes against all common sense of proper belaying.

So, how much experience do you have using a grigri, and how do you feed slack rapidly for clipping without taking your brake hand off the rope?

Jay


socalclimber


Sep 17, 2010, 7:24 PM
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Yeah, I'm curious about this too. From what he describes what I see happening is the poor leader desperately fighting for rope on a fast desperate clip.


strangeday


Sep 17, 2010, 8:25 PM
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If take your hand off the rope, then there is no belay.


billcoe_


Sep 17, 2010, 8:40 PM
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jt512 wrote:
So, how much experience do you have using a grigri, and how do you feed slack rapidly for clipping without taking your brake hand off the rope?

Jay

I was wondering that when I got to JTs question as well as I use the recommended Pinch way to hold a Cinch for a Grigri as well. AS I own both, it's much more common for me to use a Cinch those few times I do use an assisted device. I see that the link answers it with a great diagram. I need to reprogram myself now, along with everyone else I know it appears.

I've always wondered about lead climbing with a Gri Gri belay. I've figured it was because I learned on an ATC first that I am more comfortable with one of those. To me, the complexity of where your hands need to be to make it work just seems less safe than an ATC, and in fact more skill is actually needed. Yet often, those choosing an assisted device like a Grigri or a Cinch have less experience.

Stmbtclimber pretty much gives the lie to her inexperience. Perhaps this is easier to cause happen than many of us chose to believe. We see these stories all of the time. Perhaps it's a heads up that all of us should stop being so damn smug and complacent. Elsewhere on that thread another person notes that it was threaded correctly. STMBT says :
stmbtclimber wrote:
An update on the climbers that had the accident at Military Wall, and the dog died... It was my niece and her boyfriend. He broke his ankle, but will be okay. The dog was the best little dog around, a mutt poodle mix, only a few pounds and named "Pepper" She lived a long life and will be greatly missed. The fact that he landed on her, may have prevented him from being more seriously harmed. So we take some solace in that fact. They are both very shaken up from this and I'm not sure how it happened yet. They are experienced climbers, and have climbed at the Gorge for many years. Not some idiots some of you have suggested. I am a mountain guide in Colorado and have been climbing a long time, and was the first to teach my niece how to climb when she was a little girl. I have personally shown her how to use a Gri Gri correctly. As I have not talked to her yet about the details, but have read the posts here, it sounds like she was holding the gri gri open to feed rope, at the wrong time, as he happened to slip and fall trying a difficult move, and didn't alert her to his fall. Regardless, it just goes to show that we all need to be vigilant, especially at a busy area with many distractions. Sometimes at a fun, busy sport climbing spot, it can be a very social scene, and one can easily begin to feel that the climbing is not that dangerous, but it always is, and you must always pay close attention to your climber when on belay.

Wishing them all well in the mind (Belayer, climber, witness/first responders). Be safe all!


moose_droppings


Sep 17, 2010, 9:09 PM
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In reply to:
As I have not talked to her yet about the details, but have read the posts here, it sounds like she was holding the gri gri open to feed rope, at the wrong time, as he happened to slip and fall trying a difficult move, and didn't alert her to his fall.

Not trying to blame anyone here, just saying, there should never be a need to alert your belayer that your going to fall. It may be helpful, but should never be necessary.


theguy


Sep 17, 2010, 9:18 PM
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jt512 wrote:
patto wrote:
That thread is scarily full of incompetence that puts rockclimbing.com to shame.
Shocked

I'm going to guess that, since you are shocked by that statement, you don't use a grigri much, if at all, right?

Jay

And Jay fearlessly steps up to prove you wrongCrazy


pdpcardsfan


Sep 17, 2010, 9:33 PM
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no, the dog was named LuckyWink


notapplicable


Sep 17, 2010, 10:40 PM
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After reading the first several pages of the linked thread, I have to say that I would be absolutely horrified if I dropped someone and my friends started making excuses for me and basically said, "ah, it could happen to anyone..."

Just shameful.

And I'm not talking about the belayer either. Yes, she made some serious mistakes but she can learn from them. There is no excuse for those who are simply waving off these kinds of "accidents" as just a part of the sport though. It's almost like they don't think more should be expected of a belayer. It's madness.

A truly good belay is an art and the belayer can have a hundred and one duties on any given climb, but they only ever have one job. Keep the climber off the deck. Period.


majid_sabet


Sep 18, 2010, 12:10 AM
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Gri Gri= Condom

the consequences can be sever


iknowfear


Sep 18, 2010, 4:46 AM
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jt512 wrote:
patto wrote:
jt512 wrote:
I'm going to guess that, since you are shocked by that statement, you don't use a grigri much, if at all, right?

Jay

Shocked

Wrong.

When I use the grigri I never take my hand off the brake to feed slack. Its dangerous as numerous accidents have shown and goes against all common sense of proper belaying.

So, how much experience do you have using a grigri, and how do you feed slack rapidly for clipping without taking your brake hand off the rope?

Jay

Don't know a bout the others, but I use the "Gaswerk-Method" (Also called "new technique") It requires a bit of practice, but you do not have to let go of the brake strand to feed rope quickly.
http://www.youtube.com/...&feature=related Starting at 2:42

However, if I had a $ or € for the every gri-gri I see firmly held in "open" mode during the entrie climb, I could build myself quite a climbing wall.
For me, a gri-gri is something that makes me extremly nervous when I see it in some peoples (newbish) hands, while I'm not bothered when good belayers use one...


billcoe_


Sep 18, 2010, 7:44 AM
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iknowfear wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/...&feature=related Starting at 2:42

I've tried that many times as that's the natural transfer form an ATC. Never worked for me. Maybe I need to use smaller ropes. I'll try that again with a smaller rope, but when a person is clipping, it always seems like it locks up with your hands in that position. I don't think I like the way they have the cam held open with the thumb in the middle any better than the Cinch method transferred to a Gri gri. That looks like a sudden fall might create a massive rope zipping effect.


jt512


Sep 18, 2010, 8:12 AM
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billcoe_ wrote:
iknowfear wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/...&feature=related Starting at 2:42

I've tried that many times as that's the natural transfer form an ATC. Never worked for me. Maybe I need to use smaller ropes. I'll try that again with a smaller rope, but when a person is clipping, it always seems like it locks up with your hands in that position.

Using that technique the Grigri will lock up when the leader is clipping, unless you block the cam with your thumb.

In reply to:
I don't think I like the way they have the cam held open with the thumb in the middle....

Blocking the cam with the thumb of the brake hand is the whole point of the technique: you have to do something to prevent the cam from engaging when feeding slack for a clip, and keeping a thumb-up hold on the rope with the brake hand allows you to maintain your grip on the brake side of the rope while blocking the cam.

In reply to:
That looks like a sudden fall might create a massive rope zipping effect.

If you use the technique properly, I think you'll see that that cannot happen. You don't squeeze or grip the device to hold the cam open; you just press down with your thumb. In a lead fall, I don't think you could hold the cam open like that, even if you wanted to; but, surely, as a highly experienced climber, your natural response to a fall would be to lock off the rope, anyway.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Sep 18, 2010, 8:20 AM)


patto


Sep 18, 2010, 11:35 PM
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jt512 wrote:
So, how much experience do you have using a grigri, and how do you feed slack rapidly for clipping without taking your brake hand off the rope?

Jay

Whats with the 20 questions Jay? Do you suggest that a competent belay can be given if the brake strand is occasionally let go?

If I need to feed slack to the climber rapidly then I use 'Technique 2' from the previously linked video.

That said I mostly don't need to rapidly feed slack to my leader. An attentive belay and i rarely need a super fast feed. Though high sport climbing clips obvious need lots of slack. Much of my climbing is trad so a fast feed is less common.


chossmonkey


Sep 19, 2010, 6:26 AM
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jt512 wrote:
patto wrote:
That thread is scarily full of incompetence that puts rockclimbing.com to shame. I don't want to go climbing at red river.

"Lets not make this personal, but I do want to learn from this. I have never seen anybody use the technique shown here by Petzl. I'll give it a try tomorrow at the gym.

Right or wrong - most everybody using a gri-gri takes their hand off the brake to feed slack. I can use a gri-gri just like an ATC to slowly feed out rope. I can also loop a few feet of rope and hold the cam with my thumb while keeping my index fingers on the rope - I can feed a few feet quickly this way. But when my climber needs a lot of slack to clip quickly - I take my hand off the brake - BRIEFLY. More importantly, my thumb is only on the cam for the half second in which I am yanking rope out. I am open minded to there being a better way - but lets not claim this method caused this accident. The only way a climber is decking from 50 feet is if you death grip the cam."
Shocked

I'm going to guess that, since you are shocked by that statement, you don't use a grigri much, if at all, right?

Jay

So its okay for your belayer to take their hand off the rope when feeding slack but they need to keep both hands on it while lowering?Crazy


I normally don't have to take my hand off the rope when feeding. I use a grigri 99% of the time. I use the "new" method.

Perhaps it too much of an advanced technique for you?


jt512


Sep 19, 2010, 8:07 AM
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patto wrote:
jt512 wrote:
So, how much experience do you have using a grigri, and how do you feed slack rapidly for clipping without taking your brake hand off the rope?

Jay

Whats with the 20 questions Jay?

I'm trying to understand how you can be so shocked at the basically accurate comment that most greigri users will sometimes let go of the brake side of the rope in order to feed slack quickly.

In reply to:
Do you suggest that a competent belay can be given if the brake strand is occasionally let go?

Yes, using "classic" Petzl-approved belay method in the video.

In reply to:
If I need to feed slack to the climber rapidly then I use 'Technique 2' from the previously linked video.

That said I mostly don't need to rapidly feed slack to my leader. An attentive belay and i rarely need a super fast feed. Though high sport climbing clips obvious need lots of slack. Much of my climbing is trad so a fast feed is less common.

So you have little experience using a grigri for the type of climbing it was designed for (sport climbing). That explains why you were so surprised at the comment.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Sep 19, 2010, 8:11 AM)


jt512


Sep 19, 2010, 8:18 AM
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chossmonkey wrote:
jt512 wrote:
patto wrote:
That thread is scarily full of incompetence that puts rockclimbing.com to shame. I don't want to go climbing at red river.

"Lets not make this personal, but I do want to learn from this. I have never seen anybody use the technique shown here by Petzl. I'll give it a try tomorrow at the gym.

Right or wrong - most everybody using a gri-gri takes their hand off the brake to feed slack. I can use a gri-gri just like an ATC to slowly feed out rope. I can also loop a few feet of rope and hold the cam with my thumb while keeping my index fingers on the rope - I can feed a few feet quickly this way. But when my climber needs a lot of slack to clip quickly - I take my hand off the brake - BRIEFLY. More importantly, my thumb is only on the cam for the half second in which I am yanking rope out. I am open minded to there being a better way - but lets not claim this method caused this accident. The only way a climber is decking from 50 feet is if you death grip the cam."
Shocked

I'm going to guess that, since you are shocked by that statement, you don't use a grigri much, if at all, right?

Jay

So its okay for your belayer to take their hand off the rope when feeding slack but they need to keep both hands on it while lowering?Crazy

The vast majority of the time someone posts that idiotic smiley, they must mean "see what an idiotic thing I just said!" Who the hell thinks they have to keep two hands on the rope to lower with a Grigri?

In reply to:
I normally don't have to take my hand off the rope when feeding. I use a grigri 99% of the time. I use the "new" method.

Perhaps it too much of an advanced technique for you?

I sometimes use a variant of that technique. I think it's basically fine, but a little too difficult to get a lot of rope out quickly when using some ropes. But the "classic" technique, done properly, is perfectly safe as well.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Sep 19, 2010, 8:27 AM)


patto


Sep 19, 2010, 2:18 PM
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jt512 wrote:
In reply to:
Do you suggest that a competent belay can be given if the brake strand is occasionally let go?

Yes, using "classic" Petzl-approved belay method in the video.

Current GriGri instructions specify that you must NEVER let go of the brake strand.
To my knowledge all previous GriGri instructions specified that you must NEVER let go of the brake strand.


If you are letting go of the brake strand then you are doing it wrong. The video mention specifically mentions reduced grip, not no grip during the 'classic' grigri style.

Personally I would not let you belay me if you used this technique and you released your grip of the brake rope.

In reply to:
So you have little experience using a grigri for the type of climbing it was designed for (sport climbing). That explains why you were so surprised at the comment.

I don't have little experience with grigri or sport climbing. I've done plenty of sport climbing and have used and been belay by the grigri all the time. (Heading out next week for a week long sport climbing trip)

Maybe I just climb with competent belayers who DON'T let go of the brake hand?

(I generally don't go climbing with US sport gumbies that seemed to inhabit places like red river.)


five


Sep 19, 2010, 3:58 PM
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If you are unaware of this, jt512 has been climbing for 20 years and knows everything about everything.
If you argue with him ,his erroneous posts will keep getting longer… and longer…….. and longer………………….
Then he will bitch about how much garbage is in the thread. Wee wee wee


jt512


Sep 19, 2010, 4:17 PM
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patto wrote:
jt512 wrote:
In reply to:
Do you suggest that a competent belay can be given if the brake strand is occasionally let go?

Yes, using "classic" Petzl-approved belay method in the video.

Current GriGri instructions specify that you must NEVER let go of the brake strand.
To my knowledge all previous GriGri instructions specified that you must NEVER let go of the brake strand.


If you are letting go of the brake strand then you are doing it wrong. The video mention specifically mentions reduced grip, not no grip during the 'classic' grigri style.

Well, you're right about one thing. They've changed their instructions, which now only describe "method 2" in the video for feeding slack quickly. However, older versions of the instructions did say that it was permissible to use what they now call the "classic" method, and they did not show the index finger and thumb around the rope, as they seem to in the video. Keeping the index finger and thumb around the rope was a climber innovation.

Here are Petzl's instructions for how to pay out slack quickly with a grigri from an old version of their website. Click on "Paying out slack with a grigri." This is what they advocated for years.

Below is the relevant picture from the web page. Note the belayer's belay hand position in the third frame. It's not touching the rope.



Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Sep 19, 2010, 4:58 PM)
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chossmonkey


Sep 19, 2010, 6:26 PM
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jt512 wrote:

The vast majority of the time someone posts that idiotic smiley, they must mean "see what an idiotic thing I just said!"

Funny you don't use them.




jt512 wrote:
Who the hell thinks they have to keep two hands on the rope to lower with a Grigri?


Apparently you.....

jt512 wrote:
In twenty-some years of climbing, the only climber that ever refused to lower me with two hands on the brake side of the rope, when requested, lowered me precisely one time, and will never be permitted to belay me again.

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...post=1621176#1621176

Maybe you wanna look up the part where you go on about lowering with a grigri with both hands on the break side? Its probably the same thread.


jt512


Sep 19, 2010, 6:34 PM
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chossmonkey wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Who the hell thinks they have to keep two hands on the rope to lower with a Grigri?


Apparently you.....

jt512 wrote:
In twenty-some years of climbing, the only climber that ever refused to lower me with two hands on the brake side of the rope, when requested, lowered me precisely one time, and will never be permitted to belay me again.

Massive failure in reading comprehension. Please explain how you managed to infer from that how I think two hands need to be on the rope when lowering with a grigri. Clown.

Jay


socalclimber


Sep 19, 2010, 8:53 PM
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jt512 wrote:
patto wrote:
jt512 wrote:
In reply to:
Do you suggest that a competent belay can be given if the brake strand is occasionally let go?

Yes, using "classic" Petzl-approved belay method in the video.

Current GriGri instructions specify that you must NEVER let go of the brake strand.
To my knowledge all previous GriGri instructions specified that you must NEVER let go of the brake strand.


If you are letting go of the brake strand then you are doing it wrong. The video mention specifically mentions reduced grip, not no grip during the 'classic' grigri style.

Well, you're right about one thing. They've changed their instructions, which now only describe "method 2" in the video for feeding slack quickly. However, older versions of the instructions did say that it was permissible to use what they now call the "classic" method, and they did not show the index finger and thumb around the rope, as they seem to in the video. Keeping the index finger and thumb around the rope was a climber innovation.

Here are Petzl's instructions for how to pay out slack quickly with a grigri from an old version of their website. Click on "Paying out slack with a grigri." This is what they advocated for years.

Below is the relevant picture from the web page. Note the belayer's belay hand position in the third frame. It's not touching the rope.



Jay

Well, that's the way I learned to use a GriGri as well. Granted, I have only used it for top rope belaying or when working. As far using for lead climbing, my main experience is with aid climbing.


notapplicable


Sep 19, 2010, 11:03 PM
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chossmonkey wrote:
I use a grigri 99% of the time

OMG, on the gear routes too?!?!

You must go though partners like a fat lady though BonBons.


I_do


Sep 19, 2010, 11:31 PM
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jt512 wrote:
patto wrote:
jt512 wrote:
In reply to:
Do you suggest that a competent belay can be given if the brake strand is occasionally let go?

Yes, using "classic" Petzl-approved belay method in the video.

Current GriGri instructions specify that you must NEVER let go of the brake strand.
To my knowledge all previous GriGri instructions specified that you must NEVER let go of the brake strand.


If you are letting go of the brake strand then you are doing it wrong. The video mention specifically mentions reduced grip, not no grip during the 'classic' grigri style.

Well, you're right about one thing. They've changed their instructions, which now only describe "method 2" in the video for feeding slack quickly. However, older versions of the instructions did say that it was permissible to use what they now call the "classic" method, and they did not show the index finger and thumb around the rope, as they seem to in the video. Keeping the index finger and thumb around the rope was a climber innovation.

Here are Petzl's instructions for how to pay out slack quickly with a grigri from an old version of their website. Click on "Paying out slack with a grigri." This is what they advocated for years.

Below is the relevant picture from the web page. Note the belayer's belay hand position in the third frame. It's not touching the rope.



Jay

With all your anal safety gripes you actually think that's a good or even acceptable idea?

Sheez, there's a reason they changed the instructions, get with the times.


chossmonkey


Sep 20, 2010, 3:43 AM
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notapplicable wrote:
chossmonkey wrote:
I use a grigri 99% of the time

OMG, on the gear routes too?!?!

You must go though partners like a fat lady though BonBons.

Partners are disposable!


notapplicable


Sep 20, 2010, 7:24 AM
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chossmonkey wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
chossmonkey wrote:
I use a grigri 99% of the time

OMG, on the gear routes too?!?!

You must go though partners like a fat lady though BonBons.

Partners are disposable!

GG PM'd!


notapplicable


Sep 20, 2010, 7:27 AM
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I_do wrote:
jt512 wrote:
patto wrote:
jt512 wrote:
In reply to:
Do you suggest that a competent belay can be given if the brake strand is occasionally let go?

Yes, using "classic" Petzl-approved belay method in the video.

Current GriGri instructions specify that you must NEVER let go of the brake strand.
To my knowledge all previous GriGri instructions specified that you must NEVER let go of the brake strand.


If you are letting go of the brake strand then you are doing it wrong. The video mention specifically mentions reduced grip, not no grip during the 'classic' grigri style.

Well, you're right about one thing. They've changed their instructions, which now only describe "method 2" in the video for feeding slack quickly. However, older versions of the instructions did say that it was permissible to use what they now call the "classic" method, and they did not show the index finger and thumb around the rope, as they seem to in the video. Keeping the index finger and thumb around the rope was a climber innovation.

Here are Petzl's instructions for how to pay out slack quickly with a grigri from an old version of their website. Click on "Paying out slack with a grigri." This is what they advocated for years.

Below is the relevant picture from the web page. Note the belayer's belay hand position in the third frame. It's not touching the rope.



Jay

With all your anal safety gripes you actually think that's a good or even acceptable idea?

Sheez, there's a reason they changed the instructions, get with the times.

I don't use a GriGri so I have no dog in this fight but you and I both know that "the instructions" are only ever half the story.

In climbing, a lot of shit thats dangerous in the hands of a nOOb is perfectly safe, if not preferable, in the hands of an experienced climber.


I_do


Sep 20, 2010, 7:55 AM
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notapplicable wrote:
I_do wrote:
jt512 wrote:
patto wrote:
jt512 wrote:
In reply to:
Do you suggest that a competent belay can be given if the brake strand is occasionally let go?

Yes, using "classic" Petzl-approved belay method in the video.

Current GriGri instructions specify that you must NEVER let go of the brake strand.
To my knowledge all previous GriGri instructions specified that you must NEVER let go of the brake strand.


If you are letting go of the brake strand then you are doing it wrong. The video mention specifically mentions reduced grip, not no grip during the 'classic' grigri style.

Well, you're right about one thing. They've changed their instructions, which now only describe "method 2" in the video for feeding slack quickly. However, older versions of the instructions did say that it was permissible to use what they now call the "classic" method, and they did not show the index finger and thumb around the rope, as they seem to in the video. Keeping the index finger and thumb around the rope was a climber innovation.

Here are Petzl's instructions for how to pay out slack quickly with a grigri from an old version of their website. Click on "Paying out slack with a grigri." This is what they advocated for years.

Below is the relevant picture from the web page. Note the belayer's belay hand position in the third frame. It's not touching the rope.



Jay

With all your anal safety gripes you actually think that's a good or even acceptable idea?

Sheez, there's a reason they changed the instructions, get with the times.

I don't use a GriGri so I have no dog in this fight but you and I both know that "the instructions" are only ever half the story.

In climbing, a lot of shit thats dangerous in the hands of a nOOb is perfectly safe, if not preferable, in the hands of an experienced climber.

Well in this case you have two options:

give slack quickly by taking your hand off the rope (which causes shit like what started this thread).

Give slack quickly while keeping your hand on the brake side of the rope which possibly could have saved a dog here.

Now I'm not saying method 1 is total suicide (it's done a lot and usually doesn't end bad) I just think there's a safer option with no drawbacks.


jrathfon


Sep 20, 2010, 8:20 AM
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robdotcalm wrote:
http://www.redriverclimbing.com/....php?f=5&t=13284

Here’s another accident in which the belayer did not use a Grigri properly. The climber was dropped , fractured an ankle bone but hit the belayer’s dog killing the dog.

I only got part of the way through this long thread, but it appears that the most likely cause of the accident was the belayer giving slack and having her hand off the brake end of the rope when the climber fell.

Condolences on the dog and best wishes for the climber's recovery.

Cheers,
Rob.calm

As a climber from the red:

The big point in this story is that the belayer should PAY ATTENTION TO THE CLIMBER, i.e. WATCH THE CLIMBER, outside of the poor belaying technique, had she seen the fall, she could have responded. Either or both of these faults corrected could have prevented this accident. She fed slack as the climber was falling because she believed a slight tug was because he was going for a "quick clip", had she been watching the climber, she could have realized he was falling, hence not been in the "classic" "quick-clip" feed mode.

Factors in her attention span? Babies, dogs, a large crowd, noise, noise, noise, stereo, and the climber not communicating.

I've been at too many crags at the Red that are a over-crowded (mainly from college user groups, not necessarily outing clubs, just groups from colleges), large social scene at the base where climber/belayer communication is not possible. And I am definitely the ornery "older" (pushing thirty!! egad.) cuss who yells at the whipper snappers to shut up when I can't hear my climber.


Arrogant_Bastard


Sep 20, 2010, 8:39 AM
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jrathfon wrote:
robdotcalm wrote:
http://www.redriverclimbing.com/....php?f=5&t=13284

Here’s another accident in which the belayer did not use a Grigri properly. The climber was dropped , fractured an ankle bone but hit the belayer’s dog killing the dog.

I only got part of the way through this long thread, but it appears that the most likely cause of the accident was the belayer giving slack and having her hand off the brake end of the rope when the climber fell.

Condolences on the dog and best wishes for the climber's recovery.

Cheers,
Rob.calm

As a climber from the red:

The big point in this story is that the belayer should PAY ATTENTION TO THE CLIMBER, i.e. WATCH THE CLIMBER, outside of the poor belaying technique, had she seen the fall, she could have responded. Either or both of these faults corrected could have prevented this accident. She fed slack as the climber was falling because she believed a slight tug was because he was going for a "quick clip", had she been watching the climber, she could have realized he was falling, hence not been in the "classic" "quick-clip" feed mode.

Factors in her attention span? Babies, dogs, a large crowd, noise, noise, noise, stereo, and the climber not communicating.

None of those factors matter if you don't know how to use a GriGri.


jrathfon


Sep 20, 2010, 8:53 AM
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Arrogant_Bastard wrote:
jrathfon wrote:
robdotcalm wrote:
http://www.redriverclimbing.com/....php?f=5&t=13284

Here’s another accident in which the belayer did not use a Grigri properly. The climber was dropped , fractured an ankle bone but hit the belayer’s dog killing the dog.

I only got part of the way through this long thread, but it appears that the most likely cause of the accident was the belayer giving slack and having her hand off the brake end of the rope when the climber fell.

Condolences on the dog and best wishes for the climber's recovery.

Cheers,
Rob.calm

As a climber from the red:

The big point in this story is that the belayer should PAY ATTENTION TO THE CLIMBER, i.e. WATCH THE CLIMBER, outside of the poor belaying technique, had she seen the fall, she could have responded. Either or both of these faults corrected could have prevented this accident. She fed slack as the climber was falling because she believed a slight tug was because he was going for a "quick clip", had she been watching the climber, she could have realized he was falling, hence not been in the "classic" "quick-clip" feed mode.

Factors in her attention span? Babies, dogs, a large crowd, noise, noise, noise, stereo, and the climber not communicating.

None of those factors matter if you don't know how to use a GriGri.

Right, but the fact of the matter is that she was using the "classic" technique. She was in the "Figure 3" position when the climber was falling, had she been watching she wouldn't have been in that position. I'm not justifying the use of the "classic" technique, I don't use it, nor do I feel others should. Yes I sport climb, yes I trad climb, yes I use a technique to quick feed which doesnt require me to let go of the brake hand. In the end, even using the "classic" technique, the accident could have been avoided had she been watching the climber. Either or both changes could have prevented the accident. So I agree, better technique could have prevented the accident, both belaying (with the "new" technique), but even more fundamentally, just looking up.


redlude97


Sep 20, 2010, 9:51 AM
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Re: [jrathfon] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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jrathfon wrote:
Arrogant_Bastard wrote:
jrathfon wrote:
robdotcalm wrote:
http://www.redriverclimbing.com/....php?f=5&t=13284

Here’s another accident in which the belayer did not use a Grigri properly. The climber was dropped , fractured an ankle bone but hit the belayer’s dog killing the dog.

I only got part of the way through this long thread, but it appears that the most likely cause of the accident was the belayer giving slack and having her hand off the brake end of the rope when the climber fell.

Condolences on the dog and best wishes for the climber's recovery.

Cheers,
Rob.calm

As a climber from the red:

The big point in this story is that the belayer should PAY ATTENTION TO THE CLIMBER, i.e. WATCH THE CLIMBER, outside of the poor belaying technique, had she seen the fall, she could have responded. Either or both of these faults corrected could have prevented this accident. She fed slack as the climber was falling because she believed a slight tug was because he was going for a "quick clip", had she been watching the climber, she could have realized he was falling, hence not been in the "classic" "quick-clip" feed mode.

Factors in her attention span? Babies, dogs, a large crowd, noise, noise, noise, stereo, and the climber not communicating.

None of those factors matter if you don't know how to use a GriGri.

Right, but the fact of the matter is that she was using the "classic" technique. She was in the "Figure 3" position when the climber was falling, had she been watching she wouldn't have been in that position. I'm not justifying the use of the "classic" technique, I don't use it, nor do I feel others should. Yes I sport climb, yes I trad climb, yes I use a technique to quick feed which doesnt require me to let go of the brake hand. In the end, even using the "classic" technique, the accident could have been avoided had she been watching the climber. Either or both changes could have prevented the accident. So I agree, better technique could have prevented the accident, both belaying (with the "new" technique), but even more fundamentally, just looking up.
She wasn't using the "classic" technique because that technique explicitly requires you to only hold the cam while actively feeding rope quickly for a clip. Since she "didn't know how it happened" it sounds more like she was being lazy and holding the cam down for extensive periods of time which is not the "classic" technique at all, which uses a two handed technique for feeding rope to an advancing climber.


jrathfon


Sep 20, 2010, 9:53 AM
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Re: [redlude97] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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redlude97 wrote:
jrathfon wrote:
Arrogant_Bastard wrote:
jrathfon wrote:
robdotcalm wrote:
http://www.redriverclimbing.com/....php?f=5&t=13284

Here’s another accident in which the belayer did not use a Grigri properly. The climber was dropped , fractured an ankle bone but hit the belayer’s dog killing the dog.

I only got part of the way through this long thread, but it appears that the most likely cause of the accident was the belayer giving slack and having her hand off the brake end of the rope when the climber fell.

Condolences on the dog and best wishes for the climber's recovery.

Cheers,
Rob.calm

As a climber from the red:

The big point in this story is that the belayer should PAY ATTENTION TO THE CLIMBER, i.e. WATCH THE CLIMBER, outside of the poor belaying technique, had she seen the fall, she could have responded. Either or both of these faults corrected could have prevented this accident. She fed slack as the climber was falling because she believed a slight tug was because he was going for a "quick clip", had she been watching the climber, she could have realized he was falling, hence not been in the "classic" "quick-clip" feed mode.

Factors in her attention span? Babies, dogs, a large crowd, noise, noise, noise, stereo, and the climber not communicating.

None of those factors matter if you don't know how to use a GriGri.

Right, but the fact of the matter is that she was using the "classic" technique. She was in the "Figure 3" position when the climber was falling, had she been watching she wouldn't have been in that position. I'm not justifying the use of the "classic" technique, I don't use it, nor do I feel others should. Yes I sport climb, yes I trad climb, yes I use a technique to quick feed which doesnt require me to let go of the brake hand. In the end, even using the "classic" technique, the accident could have been avoided had she been watching the climber. Either or both changes could have prevented the accident. So I agree, better technique could have prevented the accident, both belaying (with the "new" technique), but even more fundamentally, just looking up.
She wasn't using the "classic" technique because that technique explicitly requires you to only hold the cam while actively feeding rope quickly for a clip. Since she "didn't know how it happened" it sounds more like she was being lazy and holding the cam down for extensive periods of time which is not the "classic" technique at all, which uses a two handed technique for feeding rope to an advancing climber.

Maybe you should read the entire RRC thread before posting. What you are quoting is heresay. And she WAS holding the cam open for a quick clip, the problem was she hadn't confirmed that visually.


spikeddem


Sep 20, 2010, 11:15 AM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
Gri Gri= Condom

the consequences can be sever

Gem.


spikeddem


Sep 20, 2010, 11:20 AM
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Re: [I_do] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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I_do wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
I_do wrote:
jt512 wrote:
patto wrote:
jt512 wrote:
In reply to:
Do you suggest that a competent belay can be given if the brake strand is occasionally let go?

Yes, using "classic" Petzl-approved belay method in the video.

Current GriGri instructions specify that you must NEVER let go of the brake strand.
To my knowledge all previous GriGri instructions specified that you must NEVER let go of the brake strand.


If you are letting go of the brake strand then you are doing it wrong. The video mention specifically mentions reduced grip, not no grip during the 'classic' grigri style.

Well, you're right about one thing. They've changed their instructions, which now only describe "method 2" in the video for feeding slack quickly. However, older versions of the instructions did say that it was permissible to use what they now call the "classic" method, and they did not show the index finger and thumb around the rope, as they seem to in the video. Keeping the index finger and thumb around the rope was a climber innovation.

Here are Petzl's instructions for how to pay out slack quickly with a grigri from an old version of their website. Click on "Paying out slack with a grigri." This is what they advocated for years.

Below is the relevant picture from the web page. Note the belayer's belay hand position in the third frame. It's not touching the rope.



Jay

With all your anal safety gripes you actually think that's a good or even acceptable idea?

Sheez, there's a reason they changed the instructions, get with the times.

I don't use a GriGri so I have no dog in this fight but you and I both know that "the instructions" are only ever half the story.

In climbing, a lot of shit thats dangerous in the hands of a nOOb is perfectly safe, if not preferable, in the hands of an experienced climber.

Well in this case you have two options:

give slack quickly by taking your hand off the rope (which causes shit like what started this thread).

Give slack quickly while keeping your hand on the brake side of the rope which possibly could have saved a dog here.

Now I'm not saying method 1 is total suicide (it's done a lot and usually doesn't end bad) I just think there's a safer option with no drawbacks.

Couldn't agree more. There's no fucking way that the "classic" method gives out slack any faster than the new method. If anything, it is faster, as the rope is angled towards the gri-gri in a way that produces less resistance to feeding. It is LITERALLY as simple as the "either or" that I bolded above.


jt512


Sep 20, 2010, 11:31 AM
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Re: [I_do] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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I_do wrote:
jt512 wrote:
patto wrote:
jt512 wrote:
In reply to:
Do you suggest that a competent belay can be given if the brake strand is occasionally let go?

Yes, using "classic" Petzl-approved belay method in the video.

Current GriGri instructions specify that you must NEVER let go of the brake strand.
To my knowledge all previous GriGri instructions specified that you must NEVER let go of the brake strand.


If you are letting go of the brake strand then you are doing it wrong. The video mention specifically mentions reduced grip, not no grip during the 'classic' grigri style.

Well, you're right about one thing. They've changed their instructions, which now only describe "method 2" in the video for feeding slack quickly. However, older versions of the instructions did say that it was permissible to use what they now call the "classic" method, and they did not show the index finger and thumb around the rope, as they seem to in the video. Keeping the index finger and thumb around the rope was a climber innovation.

Here are Petzl's instructions for how to pay out slack quickly with a grigri from an old version of their website. Click on "Paying out slack with a grigri." This is what they advocated for years.

Below is the relevant picture from the web page. Note the belayer's belay hand position in the third frame. It's not touching the rope.



Jay

With all your anal safety gripes you actually think that's a good or even acceptable idea?

I have anal safety gripes? Name one.

I've already answered the question of whether I think it's safe. If you want me to elaborate, try re-ask the question in a respectful manner.

Jay


jt512


Sep 20, 2010, 11:49 AM
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Re: [jrathfon] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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jrathfon wrote:
Arrogant_Bastard wrote:
jrathfon wrote:
robdotcalm wrote:
http://www.redriverclimbing.com/....php?f=5&t=13284

Here’s another accident in which the belayer did not use a Grigri properly. The climber was dropped , fractured an ankle bone but hit the belayer’s dog killing the dog.

I only got part of the way through this long thread, but it appears that the most likely cause of the accident was the belayer giving slack and having her hand off the brake end of the rope when the climber fell.

Condolences on the dog and best wishes for the climber's recovery.

Cheers,
Rob.calm

As a climber from the red:

The big point in this story is that the belayer should PAY ATTENTION TO THE CLIMBER, i.e. WATCH THE CLIMBER, outside of the poor belaying technique, had she seen the fall, she could have responded. Either or both of these faults corrected could have prevented this accident. She fed slack as the climber was falling because she believed a slight tug was because he was going for a "quick clip", had she been watching the climber, she could have realized he was falling, hence not been in the "classic" "quick-clip" feed mode.

Factors in her attention span? Babies, dogs, a large crowd, noise, noise, noise, stereo, and the climber not communicating.

None of those factors matter if you don't know how to use a GriGri.

Right, but the fact of the matter is that she was using the "classic" technique.

Are you sure she was using the "classic" technique? Even using the classic classic technique, where your thumb and index finger aren't encircling the rope, you only have to slide your hand down a couple of inches to put it back on the rope. That's the only reason that this method can be considered acceptable. I've never heard of an accident due to using this technique. In almost every grigri accident that I have heard of the belayer was using a more dangerous home-grown technique to hold open the cam.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Sep 20, 2010, 11:49 AM)


kachoong


Sep 20, 2010, 12:04 PM
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Re: [spikeddem] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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spikeddem wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
Gri Gri= Condom

the consequences can be sever

Gem.

Yes! Don't use a Gri-Gri and you could get pregnant.... or worse... Herpies!


jrathfon


Sep 20, 2010, 12:08 PM
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Re: [jt512] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
jrathfon wrote:
Arrogant_Bastard wrote:
jrathfon wrote:
robdotcalm wrote:
http://www.redriverclimbing.com/....php?f=5&t=13284

Here’s another accident in which the belayer did not use a Grigri properly. The climber was dropped , fractured an ankle bone but hit the belayer’s dog killing the dog.

I only got part of the way through this long thread, but it appears that the most likely cause of the accident was the belayer giving slack and having her hand off the brake end of the rope when the climber fell.

Condolences on the dog and best wishes for the climber's recovery.

Cheers,
Rob.calm

As a climber from the red:

The big point in this story is that the belayer should PAY ATTENTION TO THE CLIMBER, i.e. WATCH THE CLIMBER, outside of the poor belaying technique, had she seen the fall, she could have responded. Either or both of these faults corrected could have prevented this accident. She fed slack as the climber was falling because she believed a slight tug was because he was going for a "quick clip", had she been watching the climber, she could have realized he was falling, hence not been in the "classic" "quick-clip" feed mode.

Factors in her attention span? Babies, dogs, a large crowd, noise, noise, noise, stereo, and the climber not communicating.

None of those factors matter if you don't know how to use a GriGri.

Right, but the fact of the matter is that she was using the "classic" technique.

Are you sure she was using the "classic" technique? Even using the classic classic technique, where your thumb and index finger aren't encircling the rope, you only have to slide your hand down a couple of inches to put it back on the rope. That's the only reason that this method can be considered acceptable. I've never heard of an accident due to using this technique. In almost every grigri accident that I have heard of the belayer was using a more dangerous home-grown technique to hold open the cam.

Jay

I think only she could be sure about that one, but as far as closer witnesses say, she knew the classic technique.

Being a little familiar with this route and this wall, bolts are spaced pretty decently, I believe the climber was looking at a ~25 fall, and really only a quick moment of the cam being held down brought him the last 20 ft to the ground. Had the belayer seen the climber taking the fall, her hand wouldn't have been on the cam for quick feeding slack, since she was (theoretically) using hte "classic" technique.

Basically my point is "proper" "classic" technique, while not watching the climber = FAIL, argue all the nitty gritty you like.

As for other gri-gri accidents, most of them seem to be the clamp-the-cam-down-in-fear-using-the-classic-method type "failures".


socalclimber


Sep 20, 2010, 12:15 PM
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Re: [jrathfon] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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jrathfon wrote:
Arrogant_Bastard wrote:
jrathfon wrote:
robdotcalm wrote:
http://www.redriverclimbing.com/....php?f=5&t=13284

Here’s another accident in which the belayer did not use a Grigri properly. The climber was dropped , fractured an ankle bone but hit the belayer’s dog killing the dog.

I only got part of the way through this long thread, but it appears that the most likely cause of the accident was the belayer giving slack and having her hand off the brake end of the rope when the climber fell.

Condolences on the dog and best wishes for the climber's recovery.

Cheers,
Rob.calm

As a climber from the red:

The big point in this story is that the belayer should PAY ATTENTION TO THE CLIMBER, i.e. WATCH THE CLIMBER, outside of the poor belaying technique, had she seen the fall, she could have responded. Either or both of these faults corrected could have prevented this accident. She fed slack as the climber was falling because she believed a slight tug was because he was going for a "quick clip", had she been watching the climber, she could have realized he was falling, hence not been in the "classic" "quick-clip" feed mode.

Factors in her attention span? Babies, dogs, a large crowd, noise, noise, noise, stereo, and the climber not communicating.

None of those factors matter if you don't know how to use a GriGri.

Right, but the fact of the matter is:

She didn't know what she was doing. Her partner ended up on the ground, and the dog is dead.

The saddest part is that the dog was the only intelligent one there...

RIP Fluffy.


(This post was edited by socalclimber on Sep 20, 2010, 12:18 PM)


Arrogant_Bastard


Sep 20, 2010, 12:21 PM
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Re: [socalclimber] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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socalclimber wrote:
jrathfon wrote:
Arrogant_Bastard wrote:
jrathfon wrote:
robdotcalm wrote:
http://www.redriverclimbing.com/....php?f=5&t=13284

Here’s another accident in which the belayer did not use a Grigri properly. The climber was dropped , fractured an ankle bone but hit the belayer’s dog killing the dog.

I only got part of the way through this long thread, but it appears that the most likely cause of the accident was the belayer giving slack and having her hand off the brake end of the rope when the climber fell.

Condolences on the dog and best wishes for the climber's recovery.

Cheers,
Rob.calm

As a climber from the red:

The big point in this story is that the belayer should PAY ATTENTION TO THE CLIMBER, i.e. WATCH THE CLIMBER, outside of the poor belaying technique, had she seen the fall, she could have responded. Either or both of these faults corrected could have prevented this accident. She fed slack as the climber was falling because she believed a slight tug was because he was going for a "quick clip", had she been watching the climber, she could have realized he was falling, hence not been in the "classic" "quick-clip" feed mode.

Factors in her attention span? Babies, dogs, a large crowd, noise, noise, noise, stereo, and the climber not communicating.

None of those factors matter if you don't know how to use a GriGri.

Right, but the fact of the matter is:

She didn't know what she was doing. Her partner ended up on the ground, and the dog is dead.

The saddest part is that the dog was the only intelligent one there...

RIP FluffySpot.

fixied.


JasonsDrivingForce


Sep 20, 2010, 12:27 PM
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Re: [socalclimber] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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socalclimber wrote:

Yup, belay devices don't fail, people do.

This belay device failed.

http://climbingnarc.com/...tinued-indefinitely/


(This post was edited by JasonsDrivingForce on Sep 20, 2010, 12:27 PM)


socalclimber


Sep 20, 2010, 12:39 PM
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Re: [JasonsDrivingForce] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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JasonsDrivingForce wrote:
socalclimber wrote:

Yup, belay devices don't fail, people do.

This belay device failed.

http://climbingnarc.com/...tinued-indefinitely/

There is only one of two possibilities here:

1) You're post was in jest.

2) You honestly take this shit to heart because you are completely clueless.

If you firmly believe that #2 was a reason to back up that belay devices fail, then I would strongly suggest you make very sure to wear a helmet before you get out of bed in the mornings. You really should not be allowed outdoors without proper supervision.


JasonsDrivingForce


Sep 20, 2010, 12:49 PM
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It was in jest. Sly


bearbreeder


Sep 20, 2010, 2:26 PM
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Re: [robdotcalm] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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is she hawt? ... that would go a long way to explain why certain people are makng excuses for her ... or why they would let her belay them

once a person has clipped the 2nd bolt (and arguably the 1st) ... they should not ground on a sports climb


I_do


Sep 20, 2010, 2:29 PM
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jt512 wrote:
I_do wrote:
jt512 wrote:
patto wrote:
jt512 wrote:
In reply to:
Do you suggest that a competent belay can be given if the brake strand is occasionally let go?

Yes, using "classic" Petzl-approved belay method in the video.

Current GriGri instructions specify that you must NEVER let go of the brake strand.
To my knowledge all previous GriGri instructions specified that you must NEVER let go of the brake strand.


If you are letting go of the brake strand then you are doing it wrong. The video mention specifically mentions reduced grip, not no grip during the 'classic' grigri style.

Well, you're right about one thing. They've changed their instructions, which now only describe "method 2" in the video for feeding slack quickly. However, older versions of the instructions did say that it was permissible to use what they now call the "classic" method, and they did not show the index finger and thumb around the rope, as they seem to in the video. Keeping the index finger and thumb around the rope was a climber innovation.

Here are Petzl's instructions for how to pay out slack quickly with a grigri from an old version of their website. Click on "Paying out slack with a grigri." This is what they advocated for years.

Below is the relevant picture from the web page. Note the belayer's belay hand position in the third frame. It's not touching the rope.



Jay

With all your anal safety gripes you actually think that's a good or even acceptable idea?

I have anal safety gripes? Name one.

I've already answered the question of whether I think it's safe. If you want me to elaborate, try re-ask the question in a respectful manner.

Jay

Well the safety gripe thing is not really relevant but
I personally think i.e. your views on using a gri-gri for multipitch could be classified as such. And there is more examples where lets just say you hold a very strong opinion on what is safe or not.

What I don't understand is how someone who appears to be very safety conscious thinks it's a good idea to let go of the brake strand if not necessary. If the girl would have looked at the climber it would probably not have been an accident. However, with the "new"method the chances of catching an unforseen fall increase, without any cost other then learning the new way (which is quite easy if you're used to a gri-gri).

So considering the costs of the new benefits (very low) I don't see why you wouldn't do it. Sure the chance of it making a difference is small but if it does it makes a huge difference.

Cheers


granite_grrl


Sep 20, 2010, 2:50 PM
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notapplicable wrote:
chossmonkey wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
chossmonkey wrote:
I use a grigri 99% of the time

OMG, on the gear routes too?!?!

You must go though partners like a fat lady though BonBons.

Partners are disposable!

GG PM'd!

I'm a wily one!


Partner j_ung


Sep 20, 2010, 3:07 PM
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jt512 wrote:
patto wrote:
jt512 wrote:
In reply to:
Do you suggest that a competent belay can be given if the brake strand is occasionally let go?

Yes, using "classic" Petzl-approved belay method in the video.

Current GriGri instructions specify that you must NEVER let go of the brake strand.
To my knowledge all previous GriGri instructions specified that you must NEVER let go of the brake strand.


If you are letting go of the brake strand then you are doing it wrong. The video mention specifically mentions reduced grip, not no grip during the 'classic' grigri style.

Well, you're right about one thing. They've changed their instructions, which now only describe "method 2" in the video for feeding slack quickly. However, older versions of the instructions did say that it was permissible to use what they now call the "classic" method, and they did not show the index finger and thumb around the rope, as they seem to in the video. Keeping the index finger and thumb around the rope was a climber innovation.

Here are Petzl's instructions for how to pay out slack quickly with a grigri from an old version of their website. Click on "Paying out slack with a grigri." This is what they advocated for years.

Below is the relevant picture from the web page. Note the belayer's belay hand position in the third frame. It's not touching the rope.



Jay

Jay, I think it was you who I once saw mention a sort of modified classic method. Whoever it was said to squeeze the cam with the pinky and ring finger of the brake hand, while the middle finger, index finger and thumb are still on the brake. I've tried this method since, and I have to say, it works like an f-ing charm. It's easy to control and the brake hand (60% of it, anyway) stays on at all times.

I've tried the "new method," too, and frankly, I think it's crap for all but shiny new ropes of relatively small diameter.


spikeddem


Sep 20, 2010, 3:07 PM
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kachoong wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
Gri Gri= Condom

the consequences can be sever

Gem.

Yes! Don't use a Gri-Gri and you could get pregnant.... or worse... Herpies!

Or worse....sever. Frown


vegastradguy


Sep 20, 2010, 3:20 PM
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Re: [j_ung] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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j_ung wrote:
I've tried the "new method," too, and frankly, I think it's crap for all but shiny new ropes of relatively small diameter.

arent shiny new ropes of relatively small diameter the only ropes worth climbing on anyway?


jt512


Sep 20, 2010, 3:28 PM
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Re: [I_do] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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I_do wrote:
jt512 wrote:
I_do wrote:
jt512 wrote:
patto wrote:
jt512 wrote:
In reply to:
Do you suggest that a competent belay can be given if the brake strand is occasionally let go?

Yes, using "classic" Petzl-approved belay method in the video.

Current GriGri instructions specify that you must NEVER let go of the brake strand.
To my knowledge all previous GriGri instructions specified that you must NEVER let go of the brake strand.


If you are letting go of the brake strand then you are doing it wrong. The video mention specifically mentions reduced grip, not no grip during the 'classic' grigri style.

Well, you're right about one thing. They've changed their instructions, which now only describe "method 2" in the video for feeding slack quickly. However, older versions of the instructions did say that it was permissible to use what they now call the "classic" method, and they did not show the index finger and thumb around the rope, as they seem to in the video. Keeping the index finger and thumb around the rope was a climber innovation.

Here are Petzl's instructions for how to pay out slack quickly with a grigri from an old version of their website. Click on "Paying out slack with a grigri." This is what they advocated for years.

Below is the relevant picture from the web page. Note the belayer's belay hand position in the third frame. It's not touching the rope.



Jay

With all your anal safety gripes you actually think that's a good or even acceptable idea?

I have anal safety gripes? Name one.

I've already answered the question of whether I think it's safe. If you want me to elaborate, try re-ask the question in a respectful manner.

Jay

What I don't understand is how someone who appears to be very safety conscious thinks it's a good idea to let go of the brake strand if not necessary.

The reason that the "classic" method can be performed safely is that your hand is at most an inch away from the brake strand, and it is a simple matter to just slide your hand down the device and back onto the rope. You never let go and regrasp anything.

Additionally, the fingers that are holding the cam open should be placed on the middle of the cam lever, where they have little leverage. It's enough to hold the cam open to pull out rope, but it would be difficult, if not impossible, to prevent the cam from engaging in response to the force of a lead fall. Like I said earlier, I've never heard of an accident caused by using this technique. There is weak evidence that this might have been the case in the present accident, but I'm skeptical. The "classic" technique is rare, in my experience, whereas far more dangerous methods of "blocking" the cam are common.

Frankly, the argument is practically moot anyway, since the "classic" technique can be performed with the thumb and first one or two fingers kept around the rope.

In reply to:
If the girl would have looked at the climber it would probably not have been an accident. However, with the "new"method the chances of catching an unforseen fall increase, without any cost other then learning the new way (which is quite easy if you're used to a gri-gri).

First of all, I'm skeptical of the claim that inattention was the most important cause of this accident. How can a belayer be so inattentive that they fail to notice 50 feet of rope running through their hands? I think it is more likely that the belayer did see the fall (perhaps not immediately), reacted improperly to it and defeated the cam. Again, owing to lack of leverage, this is difficult to do if you're employing the classic method correctly, which further leads me to believe that she was not.

That said, it is completely inexcusable to not be paying close attention to your climber while they are clipping. How else can the belayer possibly know how much slack to pay out and how to properly react to a fall when the leader might have two armfuls of rope pulled out?

In reply to:
So considering the costs of the new benefits (very low) I don't see why you wouldn't do it. Sure the chance of it making a difference is small but if it does it makes a huge difference.

Cheers

I'm not convinced that the new method is actually safer than the old, provided the old method is correctly employed. With the new method I don't feel like I've got a secure grip on the rope while I'm pressing the cam down with my thumb. You can't actually hold the rope while pulling slack out (maybe with a thin enough or slick enough rope you can). In fact, I find that any friction between my hand and the rope makes it harder and slower to pull rope out. Consequently, I have a very loose grip on the rope (really not a grip at all) involving mainly my weakest two fingers, and not involving my thumb at all. That's not enough of a grip to guarantee that the cam will actuate in the event of a fall. I'm not convinced that if the rope starts to run that I could maintain control of it long enough to get my whole brake hand on the rope. In fact, I'm not convinced that the rope cannot by yanked out of my hand entirely.

In contrast, with the classic method, I've almost always got at least my thumb and one or two of my strongest fingers around the rope. Even if the rope starts to run, it's not going to get jerked out my hand, and I can easily slide my hand down the rope a couple inches to get my whole brake hand on it. The only time I ever have no part of my brake hand on the rope is when the rope is so worn, dirty, or thick that I have to move my hand further up the lever in order to squeeze the cam hard enough to get rope out. Even then, sliding my hand back down on to the rope is quick, simple, and secure; and, if the rope is that difficult to get through the grigri, the grigri is going to lock up without assistance, anyway.

Jay


Partner cracklover


Sep 20, 2010, 4:01 PM
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Re: [j_ung] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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j_ung wrote:
I've tried the "new method," too, and frankly, I think it's crap for all but shiny new ropes of relatively small diameter.

I used to think that too. But with more practice, I've found I now prefer the new technique for all but the very fattest and fuzziest of ropes (for which I switch back to the classic method). It did take time to really get good, though. Fortunately, I had my wife to practice on, and she's rather forgiving about short-roped clips.

GO


socalclimber


Sep 20, 2010, 4:01 PM
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Re: [JasonsDrivingForce] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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JasonsDrivingForce wrote:
It was in jest. Sly

Good for you! In this day and age of "nothing's my fault", you can never tell what people are thinking. Other than it's not my fault.....
Crazy


chossmonkey


Sep 20, 2010, 4:02 PM
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Re: [granite_grrl] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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granite_grrl wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
chossmonkey wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
chossmonkey wrote:
I use a grigri 99% of the time

OMG, on the gear routes too?!?!

You must go though partners like a fat lady though BonBons.

Partners are disposable!

GG PM'd!

I'm a wily one!
And resilient!


vegastradguy


Sep 20, 2010, 4:35 PM
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Re: [jt512] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
I'm not convinced that the new method is actually safer than the old, provided the old method is correctly employed.

the 'provided' part is pretty key. I cant say i've ever seen someone actually use it as petzl demonstrates and recommends.

I would argue that the classic method, while if properly done is safe, is very likely to find itself mutated in a way that makes it incredibly dangerous (i.e. just holding the cam down).


billcoe_


Sep 20, 2010, 7:49 PM
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Re: [jt512] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
How can a belayer be so inattentive that they fail to notice 50 feet of rope running through their hands?

This ...right here.


JasonsDrivingForce


Sep 20, 2010, 8:08 PM
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Re: [socalclimber] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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I always thought the correct technique for belaying is the one that doesn't end up with the climber decking? What works for one person may not work well for another.

All I know is that what happened in this situation didn't work out for the poor dog that couldn't care less about what belay technique was used.


USnavy


Sep 21, 2010, 4:50 AM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
Gri Gri= Condom

the consequences can be sever
Its "severe" and "GriGri", noob...


(This post was edited by USnavy on Sep 21, 2010, 4:51 AM)


USnavy


Sep 21, 2010, 4:57 AM
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Re: [jt512] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
I_do wrote:
jt512 wrote:
I_do wrote:
jt512 wrote:
patto wrote:
jt512 wrote:
In reply to:
Do you suggest that a competent belay can be given if the brake strand is occasionally let go?

Yes, using "classic" Petzl-approved belay method in the video.

Current GriGri instructions specify that you must NEVER let go of the brake strand.
To my knowledge all previous GriGri instructions specified that you must NEVER let go of the brake strand.


If you are letting go of the brake strand then you are doing it wrong. The video mention specifically mentions reduced grip, not no grip during the 'classic' grigri style.

Well, you're right about one thing. They've changed their instructions, which now only describe "method 2" in the video for feeding slack quickly. However, older versions of the instructions did say that it was permissible to use what they now call the "classic" method, and they did not show the index finger and thumb around the rope, as they seem to in the video. Keeping the index finger and thumb around the rope was a climber innovation.

Here are Petzl's instructions for how to pay out slack quickly with a grigri from an old version of their website. Click on "Paying out slack with a grigri." This is what they advocated for years.

Below is the relevant picture from the web page. Note the belayer's belay hand position in the third frame. It's not touching the rope.



Jay

With all your anal safety gripes you actually think that's a good or even acceptable idea?

I have anal safety gripes? Name one.

I've already answered the question of whether I think it's safe. If you want me to elaborate, try re-ask the question in a respectful manner.

Jay

How can a belayer be so inattentive that they fail to notice 50 feet of rope running through their hands?

Like this:




(This post was edited by USnavy on Sep 21, 2010, 4:58 AM)


bill413


Sep 21, 2010, 5:27 AM
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Re: [USnavy] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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USnavy wrote:
jt512 wrote:

How can a belayer be so inattentive that they fail to notice 50 feet of rope running through their hands?




Like this:


No, then it isn't running through their hands - only the device. Unsure


(This post was edited by bill413 on Sep 21, 2010, 5:28 AM)


Partner j_ung


Sep 21, 2010, 5:38 AM
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Re: [USnavy] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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USnavy wrote:

I'm not saying it's okay, but (assuming that's a Gri-gri rigged appropriately on a thick enough rope) this method is probably safer than quite a bit of the bastardized Gri-gri technique I've seen.


Gmburns2000


Sep 21, 2010, 6:09 AM
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Re: [jt512] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
I_do wrote:
jt512 wrote:
patto wrote:
jt512 wrote:
In reply to:
Do you suggest that a competent belay can be given if the brake strand is occasionally let go?

Yes, using "classic" Petzl-approved belay method in the video.

Current GriGri instructions specify that you must NEVER let go of the brake strand.
To my knowledge all previous GriGri instructions specified that you must NEVER let go of the brake strand.


If you are letting go of the brake strand then you are doing it wrong. The video mention specifically mentions reduced grip, not no grip during the 'classic' grigri style.

Well, you're right about one thing. They've changed their instructions, which now only describe "method 2" in the video for feeding slack quickly. However, older versions of the instructions did say that it was permissible to use what they now call the "classic" method, and they did not show the index finger and thumb around the rope, as they seem to in the video. Keeping the index finger and thumb around the rope was a climber innovation.

Here are Petzl's instructions for how to pay out slack quickly with a grigri from an old version of their website. Click on "Paying out slack with a grigri." This is what they advocated for years.

Below is the relevant picture from the web page. Note the belayer's belay hand position in the third frame. It's not touching the rope.



Jay

With all your anal safety gripes you actually think that's a good or even acceptable idea?

I have anal safety gripes? Name one.

I've already answered the question of whether I think it's safe. If you want me to elaborate, try re-ask the question again in a respectful manner.

Jay


captainstatic


Sep 21, 2010, 7:45 AM
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Re: [robdotcalm] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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I am in direct contact with the climber. He is going back to the doctor in three weeks and will then start PT so he should be back to climbing soon. Both he and the belayer openly admit that belayer error was the cause of the accident. I am trying to find out more details directly from them. What I have found out so far is that they were using a 10mm rope so rope diameter shouldn't have been an issue. The climber also thinks there was some friction through the device at some point in the fall. I will try to find out more details about the technique the belayer was using.


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Sep 21, 2010, 7:56 AM
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USnavy wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
Gri Gri= Condom

the consequences can be sever
Its "severe" and "GriGri", noob...

If your going to correct someone and call them names, do a little research. Many stores online call it a Grigri and Petzl seems to only show it in all upper case as GRIGRI. Unless you have better evidence that your "GriGri" spelling is correct, STFU noob.

Dave

P.S. I'm just kidding about the STFU. I've just been waiting years to use that on someone.


camhead


Sep 21, 2010, 8:05 AM
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drector wrote:
USnavy wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
Gri Gri= Condom

the consequences can be sever
Its "severe" and "GriGri", noob...

If your going to correct someone and call them names, do a little research. Many stores online call it a Grigri and Petzl seems to only show it in all upper case as GRIGRI. Unless you have better evidence that your "GriGri" spelling is correct, STFU noob.

Dave

P.S. I'm just kidding about the STFU. I've just been waiting years to use that on someone.

that's ok, everyone tells usnavy to stfu. he's kind of a fish in a barrel that way.


majid_sabet


Sep 21, 2010, 8:11 AM
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USnavy wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
Gri Gri= Condom

the consequences can be sever
Its "severe" and "GriGri", noob...



noob is spelled "n00b"

http://www.motifake.com/saveas.php?id=68705


spikeddem


Sep 21, 2010, 8:30 AM
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majid_sabet wrote:
USnavy wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
Gri Gri= Condom

the consequences can be sever
Its "severe" and "GriGri", noob...



noob is spelled "n00b"

http://www.motifake.com/saveas.php?id=68705

It's*

and comma goes inside quotation mark there.

Why would anyone ever correct majid on grammar? It's, like, his thing.


blondgecko
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Sep 21, 2010, 4:53 PM
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Re: [spikeddem] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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spikeddem wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
USnavy wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
Gri Gri= Condom

the consequences can be sever
Its "severe" and "GriGri", noob...



noob is spelled "n00b"

http://www.motifake.com/saveas.php?id=68705

It's*

and comma goes inside quotation mark there.

Why would anyone ever correct majid on grammar? It's, like, his thing.

Now those are fighting words.

... but seriously, can we try to get back on topic now?


Gmburns2000


Sep 21, 2010, 4:58 PM
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blondgecko wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
USnavy wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
Gri Gri= Condom

the consequences can be sever
Its "severe" and "GriGri", noob...



noob is spelled "n00b"

http://www.motifake.com/saveas.php?id=68705

It's*

and comma goes inside quotation mark there.

Why would anyone ever correct majid on grammar? It's, like, his thing.

Now those are fighting words.

... but seriously, can we try to get back on topic now?

he's right, comma goes inside the quotes in this instance.


jt512


Sep 21, 2010, 5:01 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
blondgecko wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
USnavy wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
Gri Gri= Condom

the consequences can be sever
Its "severe" and "GriGri", noob...



noob is spelled "n00b"

http://www.motifake.com/saveas.php?id=68705

It's*

and comma goes inside quotation mark there.

Why would anyone ever correct majid on grammar? It's, like, his thing.

Now those are fighting words.

... but seriously, can we try to get back on topic now?

he's right, comma goes inside the quotes in this instance.

That's only true in American English.

Jay


Gmburns2000


Sep 21, 2010, 5:05 PM
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jt512 wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
blondgecko wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
USnavy wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
Gri Gri= Condom

the consequences can be sever
Its "severe" and "GriGri", noob...



noob is spelled "n00b"

http://www.motifake.com/saveas.php?id=68705

It's*

and comma goes inside quotation mark there.

Why would anyone ever correct majid on grammar? It's, like, his thing.

Now those are fighting words.

... but seriously, can we try to get back on topic now?

he's right, comma goes inside the quotes in this instance.

That's only true in American English.

Jay

relevance? that other BS was changed for a reason ya know.


jt512


Sep 21, 2010, 5:05 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
blondgecko wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
USnavy wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
Gri Gri= Condom

the consequences can be sever
Its "severe" and "GriGri", noob...



noob is spelled "n00b"

http://www.motifake.com/saveas.php?id=68705

It's*

and comma goes inside quotation mark there.

Why would anyone ever correct majid on grammar? It's, like, his thing.

Now those are fighting words.

... but seriously, can we try to get back on topic now?

he's right, comma goes inside the quotes in this instance.

That's only true in American English.

Jay

relevance? that other BS was changed for a reason ya know.

Huh?


Gmburns2000


Sep 21, 2010, 5:10 PM
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jt512 wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
blondgecko wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
USnavy wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
Gri Gri= Condom

the consequences can be sever
Its "severe" and "GriGri", noob...



noob is spelled "n00b"

http://www.motifake.com/saveas.php?id=68705

It's*

and comma goes inside quotation mark there.

Why would anyone ever correct majid on grammar? It's, like, his thing.

Now those are fighting words.

... but seriously, can we try to get back on topic now?

he's right, comma goes inside the quotes in this instance.

That's only true in American English.

Jay

relevance? that other BS was changed for a reason ya know.

Huh?

we (americans) changed the language deliberately for a reason.


majid_sabet


Sep 21, 2010, 10:55 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
blondgecko wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
USnavy wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
Gri Gri= Condom

the consequences can be sever
Its "severe" and "GriGri", noob...



noob is spelled "n00b"

http://www.motifake.com/saveas.php?id=68705

It's*

and comma goes inside quotation mark there.

Why would anyone ever correct majid on grammar? It's, like, his thing.

Now those are fighting words.

... but seriously, can we try to get back on topic now?

he's right, comma goes inside the quotes in this instance.

That's only true in American English.

Jay

relevance? that other BS was changed for a reason ya know.

Huh?

we (americans) changed the language deliberately for a reason.

As an American, I have the right to change the climbing English to make things easier and yes Mr Modz, we are still talking about GriGri.


(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Sep 21, 2010, 10:55 PM)


Gmburns2000


Sep 22, 2010, 4:05 AM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
blondgecko wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
USnavy wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
Gri Gri= Condom

the consequences can be sever
Its "severe" and "GriGri", noob...



noob is spelled "n00b"

http://www.motifake.com/saveas.php?id=68705

It's*

and comma goes inside quotation mark there.

Why would anyone ever correct majid on grammar? It's, like, his thing.

Now those are fighting words.

... but seriously, can we try to get back on topic now?

he's right, comma goes inside the quotes in this instance.

That's only true in American English.

Jay

relevance? that other BS was changed for a reason ya know.

Huh?

we (americans) changed the language deliberately for a reason.

As an American, I have the right to change the climbing English to make things easier and yes Mr Modz, we are still talking about GriGri.

that was an amazingly good sentence.


jt512


Sep 22, 2010, 10:55 AM
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Re: [Gmburns2000] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
blondgecko wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
USnavy wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
Gri Gri= Condom

the consequences can be sever
Its "severe" and "GriGri", noob...



noob is spelled "n00b"

http://www.motifake.com/saveas.php?id=68705

It's*

and comma goes inside quotation mark there.

Why would anyone ever correct majid on grammar? It's, like, his thing.

Now those are fighting words.

... but seriously, can we try to get back on topic now?

he's right, comma goes inside the quotes in this instance.

That's only true in American English.

Jay

relevance? that other BS was changed for a reason ya know.

Huh?

we (americans) changed the language deliberately for a reason.

As an American, I have the right to change the climbing English to make things easier and yes Mr Modz, we are still talking about GriGri.

that was an amazingly good sentence.

"That" should be capitalized, along with the first word of every other sentence you've written. You're in no position to be a critic.

Jay


altelis


Sep 22, 2010, 11:40 AM
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Re: [USnavy] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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USnavy wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
Gri Gri= Condom

the consequences can be sever
Its "severe" and "GriGri", noob...

USnavy, that's pronounced "ass hat"


Gmburns2000


Sep 22, 2010, 12:39 PM
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Re: [jt512] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
blondgecko wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
USnavy wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
Gri Gri= Condom

the consequences can be sever
Its "severe" and "GriGri", noob...



noob is spelled "n00b"

http://www.motifake.com/saveas.php?id=68705

It's*

and comma goes inside quotation mark there.

Why would anyone ever correct majid on grammar? It's, like, his thing.

Now those are fighting words.

... but seriously, can we try to get back on topic now?

he's right, comma goes inside the quotes in this instance.

That's only true in American English.

Jay

relevance? that other BS was changed for a reason ya know.

Huh?

we (americans) changed the language deliberately for a reason.

As an American, I have the right to change the climbing English to make things easier and yes Mr Modz, we are still talking about GriGri.

that was an amazingly good sentence.

"That" should be capitalized, along with the first word of every other sentence you've written. You're in no position to be a critic.

Jay

I am if I want to be, and I want to be: you still suck.


spikeddem


Sep 22, 2010, 1:01 PM
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Re: [jt512] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
blondgecko wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
USnavy wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
Gri Gri= Condom

the consequences can be sever
Its "severe" and "GriGri", noob...



noob is spelled "n00b"

http://www.motifake.com/saveas.php?id=68705

It's*

and comma goes inside quotation mark there.

Why would anyone ever correct majid on grammar? It's, like, his thing.

Now those are fighting words.

... but seriously, can we try to get back on topic now?

he's right, comma goes inside the quotes in this instance.

That's only true in American English.

Jay

I am aware of that, I was responding to an American. You almost GU'd my response to sir gecko. Close call.


billcoe_


Sep 22, 2010, 6:12 PM
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Re: [spikeddem] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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When all you jackasses get done being bullshit artists and asswipes to each other. Some folks are still on task.

captainstatic wrote:
I am in direct contact with the climber. He is going back to the doctor in three weeks and will then start PT so he should be back to climbing soon. Both he and the belayer openly admit that belayer error was the cause of the accident. I am trying to find out more details directly from them. What I have found out so far is that they were using a 10mm rope so rope diameter shouldn't have been an issue. The climber also thinks there was some friction through the device at some point in the fall. I will try to find out more details about the technique the belayer was using.

Good deal, I wish them well again. It's a reminder to all of us that we need to emphasis this skill, and do it every time we get out, no matter what the position or device we are using.


shoo


Sep 22, 2010, 7:15 PM
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Re: [billcoe_] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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billcoe_ wrote:
When all you jackasses get done being bullshit artists and asswipes to each other. Some folks are still on task.

captainstatic wrote:
I am in direct contact with the climber. He is going back to the doctor in three weeks and will then start PT so he should be back to climbing soon. Both he and the belayer openly admit that belayer error was the cause of the accident. I am trying to find out more details directly from them. What I have found out so far is that they were using a 10mm rope so rope diameter shouldn't have been an issue. The climber also thinks there was some friction through the device at some point in the fall. I will try to find out more details about the technique the belayer was using.

Good deal, I wish them well again. It's a reminder to all of us that we need to emphasis this skill, and do it every time we get out, no matter what the position or device we are using.

As I always believe, the direct cause of accident was the belayer. However, the climber bares some of the blame because he chose to climb with her.

I had a pretty nasty fall due to belayer error in the spring. I would have been injury free had he given me a soft catch rather than locking off hard sending me penduliming into a wall. However, I chose to climb with a guy I never climbed with before without knowing much about him. This was not a smart choice, and there were consequences. The blame is partially mine.


captainstatic


Sep 23, 2010, 8:58 AM
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Re: [shoo] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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shoo wrote:
As I always believe, the direct cause of accident was the belayer. However, the climber bares some of the blame because he chose to climb with her.

I had a pretty nasty fall due to belayer error in the spring. I would have been injury free had he given me a soft catch rather than locking off hard sending me penduliming into a wall. However, I chose to climb with a guy I never climbed with before without knowing much about him. This was not a smart choice, and there were consequences. The blame is partially mine.
The belayer is his girlfriend so I don't know if the choice would be that easy. Honey, I love you but I am dumping you as a belayer ;)


shoo


Sep 23, 2010, 9:18 AM
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captainstatic wrote:
The belayer is his girlfriend so I don't know if the choice would be that easy. Honey, I love you but I am dumping you as a belayer ;)

Or don't go out and climb stuff before said girl has adequate experience. And yes, I am making a strong assumption about experience, due to the evidence (she dropped him) and the fact that the story appears to fit pretty nicely into the overly-macho-boyfriend-takes-inexperienced-girlfriend-out-climbing stereotype.

Let me make this clear: this is speculation based on assumptions and hearsay. I have not met these two, and do not mean any disrespect. What happened sucks for all involved.

The worst part about belayer error is that it's usually someone else that gets hurt, not the one that committed the mistake. I just want to make it clear that the climber appears to have made a poor choice, and thus is partially responsible for the consequences.


captainstatic


Sep 23, 2010, 10:33 AM
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Re: [shoo] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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No doubt there are people who fit that stereotype but the climbers in this accident do not. The following is part of what a relative of the belayer posted on RRC.com -

An update on the climbers that had the accident at Military Wall, ... It was my niece and her boyfriend. ... I am a mountain guide in Colorado and have been climbing a long time, and was the first to teach my niece how to climb when she was a little girl. I have personally shown her how to use a Gri Gri correctly. As I have not talked to her yet about the details, but have read the posts here, it sounds like she was holding the gri gri open to feed rope, ...

I think part of the lesson here is that "experienced" climbers can have flawed technique or make mistakes.

Of course the thread on RRC.com digressed into a belay technique discussion. This post was the best and on point -

A very well respected "old school" gorge climber taught me how to belay years ago and something he said has stuck with me all these years. At my age, not much sticks with me anymore but this did:

When the climber asks "On belay?" and you reply "Belay is on." you have essentially entered into a verbal agreement (contract is the word he used) to keep the climber safe no matter what. This verbal agreement is in effect until the climber says "Off Belay" and you reply "Belay is off".

Secondly, he asked me the difference between belaying with a gri gri and an ATC and I went into a long description of how to use the gri gri. He stopped me in mid sentence and said "Nothing". Use them the same way where you never take your hand off the brake end. He was big on keeping things simple.



wonderwoman


Sep 23, 2010, 10:56 AM
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Re: [captainstatic] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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captainstatic wrote:
I think part of the lesson here is that "experienced" climbers can have flawed technique or make mistakes.

Or, just have really bad judgment. Unfortunately, sometimes you don't find that out until it really matters.


billcoe_


Sep 23, 2010, 1:37 PM
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Re: [captainstatic] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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captainstatic wrote:
The belayer is his girlfriend so I don't know if the choice would be that easy. Honey, I love you but I am dumping you as a belayer ;)

LOL!

When my son came back from college last year whereupon he assured me he'd learned to both climb and belay. I insisted he practice with the full rope layed out on the sidewalk right in front of our house, both ways both hands. Tied him off to the telephone pole, theurned out, they hadn't taught him that. In fact it also turns out, he needed practice. Furthermore, he really needed it to be emphasized how critical this skill was and how it can't be 99% good, cause that means you're dealing with a fatality 1% of the time. It's that critical and important. Much much more important than pulling on stone, which up till that time had bee the focus. Then we went out and practiced at the rock with a back up belayer. Now we are doing multipitch and this summer we did 2 or 3 first ascents together. Much nicer being with him knowing the kid won't kill me.

These are choices...in this case, that they BOTH appear to have made. They chose NOT to practice. They chose not to emphasis it's importance. It is a choice YOU or I can make as a climber and as a belayer.


viciado


Oct 1, 2010, 5:55 AM
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Re: [billcoe_] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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The leader in the fatal "Darkside"incident
http://www.rockclimbing.com/..._reply;so=ASC;mh=25;
made a decision similar to what you described. It seems to be a combination of poor technique and mis-placed trust that results in the more serious accidents. I know what it is to have the bug to climb so bad that I will do almost anything to get on the rock, but in some ways, soloing seems like a better option than involving someone else resulting in a false sence of security. At least the risks are better defined when I am soloing... not that I encourage that, but it involves more calculated thought, which I do advocate.


(This post was edited by viciado on Oct 1, 2010, 6:02 AM)


ClimbSoHigh


Oct 15, 2010, 7:59 AM
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Re: [viciado] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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I think the biggest take away is that you need to focus more on your belayer choices than anything else, people spend hours researching the best gear, inspecting thier ropes, training, techniques, etc, but will grab any bystander to belay them at the crag. I would rather climb on a 40 year old hemp rope than with a gumby belayer. Most people brag about their hardest onsight, their scariest epic, their FA's, longest whipper, most commiting climb, which is all nice but not the most important climbing skill at all. My biggest accomplishment so far in my 10 years of climbing is paying 100% attention for all belays I have ever given, never taken my brake hand off ever with any belay device, and most importantly I have never dropped a climber. My second biggest accomplishments are the numerous climbs I have backed off of where I was not confident and injury seems likely resulting in never being injured tied into a rope (bouldering is a different story!). People should brag about these things rather than their first 5.12 onsight. I also have a policy that if you have ever dropped a climber, including a temporary slip of concentration that makes a whipper way larger than needed, you're black listed. I have a couple friends who I will boulder with only, but will not let them belay me.

I personally feel people need a long time of TR belaying before they should ever attempt lead belaying. Everytime I see someone teach someone how to lead belay at the crag, while tied in, I leave. I might say something, but usually I just leave before a mess happens which is another goal of mine, never see someone get med evaced/killed. If it is someones first time climbing/belaying, teach them at home first. It is scary how most people don't realize that a solid belayer is the most important skill in climbing. Even scarier how many "self proclaimed good belayers, can't escape their belay or do simple rescues.

I also liked the comment earlier about being on belay being a contract with your partner, where your life is the colateral. From the point of on belay to off belay, the belayer is under contract to do everything possible to keep you safe and alive. Also I like the question about whats the difference in belaying witha gri gri or a tube style... nothing.

You have to trust your belayer more than your own family/wife/husband/best friend, unless they are also your belayer.


jt512


Oct 15, 2010, 9:54 AM
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Re: [ClimbSoHigh] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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ClimbSoHigh wrote:
My biggest accomplishment so far in my 10 years of climbing is paying 100% attention for all belays I have ever give...

That's a nice thing to strive for, but I have trouble believing that anyone can have belay for 10 years and have had zero lapses of concentration. I just don't think that that's humanly possible, and so we should be aware of it and realistic about it.

In reply to:
I also have a policy that if you have ever dropped a climber, including a temporary slip of concentration that makes a whipper way larger than needed, you're black listed.

Such a policy implicitly assumes that a belayer who has dropped someone is more likely to drop someone in the future than someone who hasn't. I suspect that that is a false assumption.

On a purely statistical basis, I don't know anybody who has dropped another climber more than once. On a more analytical basis, considering the sloppy or outright dangerous belay habits of the average belayer (who has never dropped anyone), I think that the average belayer is just an accident waiting to happen. Together, those two observations suggest that a belayer who has dropped someone once might actually be safer than average. How could that be so? Because they may have learned a lesson. Obviously, I would not just automatically assume that, but I'd want to know the details of the accident and hear from the belayer what he learned from it; and then I'd make a judgment about whether I could trust him.

For example, I know a guy who dropped another climber while belaying hands-off with an Eddy. He had been warned that that was dangerous, but insisted that the device was guaranteed to lock-up without assistance. Now, even if that guy now never lets go of the rope again, I doubt I would climb with him, because the fact that he didn't know that he was supposed to keep his brake hand on the rope suggests that he was so poorly informed and had such poor judgment that I'd now be wondering what else he doesn't know and is making poor judgments about.

On the other hand, I know another guy who dropped someone once using a grigri. I was there and witnessed the whole thing. I know exactly what he did wrong, and so does he. We both learned a valuable lesson from that experience, and I'll take a belay from that guy any day over one from almost any other climber I've seen belaying in the last 10 years.

In reply to:
I personally feel people need a long time of TR belaying before they should ever attempt lead belaying.

I'm sorry that I seem to be disagreeing with you on everything, but there should be no inherent difference between so-called lead belay and TR belay technique. Properly performed, both involve both letting out and taking in rope; it's a matter of which is done more. Furthermore, no matter what belay technique you use, it is easer to let rope out that it is to take rope in. This is because after letting rope out, you can simply slide your brake hand back down the rope; whereas, after taking rope in, you can't (or shouldn't) shuffle your brake hand up the rope—you need to (or should) stabilize the brake side of the rope with the other hand, so that you can maintain a firm grip on the rope with your brake hand while sliding it back up. Thus taking rope in—if you actually do it correctly—is more complicated than letting rope out. And, since taking rope in is the dominant maneuver in top rope belaying, but not in lead belaying, top rope belaying is actually more difficult than lead belaying—at least at the elementary level.

When I teach someone to belay I don't teach them how to lead belay separately from how to TR belay; I teach them how to take rope in and let rope out safely. Someone who has learned to belay from me is competent to belay both leaders and top-ropers their first day out, and I have had "students" of mine belay me on easy leads their first time belaying more often than I have had them belay a top-roper.

In reply to:
I also liked the comment earlier about being on belay being a contract with your partner, where your life is the colateral. From the point of on belay to off belay, the belayer is under contract to do everything possible to keep you safe and alive.

That I agree with you on. I stress the contract aspect of belaying when I teach.

In reply to:
Also I like the question about whats the difference in belaying witha gri gri or a tube style... nothing.

That makes for a snappy-sounding sound bite, but like most snappy-sounding sound bites it is too simplistic and just plain wrong. If you try to feed rope through a grigri the way you do an ATC, you won't be able to get rope out fast enough, and you're going to be constantly short-roping your partner. Belaying with a grigri requires a specialized technique; there's no getting around it.

Jay


ClimbSoHigh


Oct 15, 2010, 12:58 PM
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Re: [jt512] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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Nice insight, I would like to think I have never had a lapse in concentration but have at points along the way, but rarely when it comes to belaying. I did have about 5 feet of slack in the rope tr belaying once and scared my climber a little bit. He had climbed a bit, and I did not feel the slack in the rope due to rope drag and I wasn't watchin him, just feeling for slack. No where close to decking, but still I was upset I didn't have better communication with my climber about slack in the system. Another time I was affraid my climber would deck on a ledge due to rope stretch so I took as he fell and gave a hard catch to keep him off the ledge. He still had like 10 feet between him and the ledge. It was probably my 10 lead fall I caught at the time and was not used to judging rope stretch and the expected fall. Other than that I dont think I have had a single lapse of concentration and have caught tons of falls. Everytime I belay, I think to myself that I need to do what I can to keep them safe, and I hope my belayers think the same for me every time as well.

For belayer that drop people, in my mind once is too much since once can kill your climber/friend but I agree that it all depends. I won't "black list" a belayer for decking a climber that had gear pull, or blew the second bolt while trying to clip, but taking the brake hand off to eat some chips is a one time offense that will keep me from roping up with you for life (or a very long time). I understand mistakes can be valuable learning tools, but a mistake, even your first can be the end for the climber. To me eating chips while belaying means the individual takes the dangers of climbing too lightly and somewhere along the line bad stuff will happen. Just like everything in climbing, it is situation dependant. I just really do not want to deck, and consider myself a risk averse climber. I am a weekend climber and my main goal in climbing is not to get hurt (or killed), and develop good decision making skills. Whether I send a route or not is distant second to me. Thats why I read these accident reports religously so I can learn from others mistakes. I don't want to get hurt/die or have the guilty concience of hurting/killing someone else.

As to my opinion that belaying TR a bunch before lead bleaying is a good idea, I think I might have not been clear. I still teach new belayers to take in and give out rope with the ever important brake hand never leaving the brake end, but my reasoning to start people with TR fisrt is that there is considerably less impact force from a TR fall than a leader fall. I think it is easier to break someone into belaying by having them catch a bunch of TR falls to get a feel for the friction of that device and rope, before expecting them to catch a 30 foot whipper first time out. I started this way and feel this helped me learn alot about the physics of belaying before catching my first big whipper.

Lastly I agree with you that there are differences between tube style and gri gri, but the important part of the sound byte is that there should never be lax belaying b/c it is auto locking. I guess it would be more appropriate to say that there is nothing different as far as the brake hand is concerned.

And for the record, I'd rather get short roped than have my belayer let go of the brake end to hold the cam shut to pay out ropw. My solution to this is to clip at waist level when possible, and when I need to reach up for a clip for certain situations, I tell my belayer "clipping" to let him know I am about to clip over my head and to start giving the extra rope. Belayer feeds out one arm length while I pull that arms length up a bit to bite with my teeth. Then the belayer feeds out the second arms length as I reach up to clip. As long as there is good communication, I do not know why people would need to hold the cam at all if you move smoothly and controlled. If you need to hold the cam because your rope is fuzzy, thick, or just accidentally engages b/c you pulled too quick, use your thumb, not your whole hand!

All I was trying to convey from my post is that people really need to treat belaying and belayer selection a little more seriously. I see too many people treating belaying as a chore and an anoyance, and some take it lgihtly for various reasons. People spend so much time and effort buying the latest gear, studying fall factors and climbing physics, training long hours on garage woodies, having perfectly fitted shoes, yet will grab any available stranger at the crag to run up a climb.

climber "do you know how to belay?
stranger "yes"
climber "can I get a belay?"
stranger "sure!"

I see that way too much, and with gyms and sport, there are a decent amount of 5.11 - 5.12 climbers that are clueless belayers.


socalclimber


Oct 15, 2010, 5:52 PM
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"I also liked the comment earlier about being on belay being a contract with your partner, where your life is the colateral. From the point of on belay to off belay, the belayer is under contract to do everything possible to keep you safe and alive."

One of the main things I teach in 101 classes is that the terms On Belay, and Climbing are not statements. They are questions the climber is asking his/her belayer.

It's amazing how often I see climbers making these "statements" without the requisite safety checks. If you cannot communicate on the ground 3 feet from one another, then things are not likely to improve a 100 feet off the ground.


(This post was edited by socalclimber on Oct 15, 2010, 6:00 PM)


yanqui


Oct 16, 2010, 9:50 AM
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jt512 wrote:
I_do wrote:
jt512 wrote:
I_do wrote:
jt512 wrote:
patto wrote:
jt512 wrote:
In reply to:
Do you suggest that a competent belay can be given if the brake strand is occasionally let go?

Yes, using "classic" Petzl-approved belay method in the video.

Current GriGri instructions specify that you must NEVER let go of the brake strand.
To my knowledge all previous GriGri instructions specified that you must NEVER let go of the brake strand.


If you are letting go of the brake strand then you are doing it wrong. The video mention specifically mentions reduced grip, not no grip during the 'classic' grigri style.

Well, you're right about one thing. They've changed their instructions, which now only describe "method 2" in the video for feeding slack quickly. However, older versions of the instructions did say that it was permissible to use what they now call the "classic" method, and they did not show the index finger and thumb around the rope, as they seem to in the video. Keeping the index finger and thumb around the rope was a climber innovation.

Here are Petzl's instructions for how to pay out slack quickly with a grigri from an old version of their website. Click on "Paying out slack with a grigri." This is what they advocated for years.

Below is the relevant picture from the web page. Note the belayer's belay hand position in the third frame. It's not touching the rope.



Jay

With all your anal safety gripes you actually think that's a good or even acceptable idea?

I have anal safety gripes? Name one.

I've already answered the question of whether I think it's safe. If you want me to elaborate, try re-ask the question in a respectful manner.

Jay

What I don't understand is how someone who appears to be very safety conscious thinks it's a good idea to let go of the brake strand if not necessary.

The reason that the "classic" method can be performed safely is that your hand is at most an inch away from the brake strand, and it is a simple matter to just slide your hand down the device and back onto the rope. You never let go and regrasp anything.

Additionally, the fingers that are holding the cam open should be placed on the middle of the cam lever, where they have little leverage. It's enough to hold the cam open to pull out rope, but it would be difficult, if not impossible, to prevent the cam from engaging in response to the force of a lead fall. Like I said earlier, I've never heard of an accident caused by using this technique. There is weak evidence that this might have been the case in the present accident, but I'm skeptical. The "classic" technique is rare, in my experience, whereas far more dangerous methods of "blocking" the cam are common.

Frankly, the argument is practically moot anyway, since the "classic" technique can be performed with the thumb and first one or two fingers kept around the rope.

In reply to:
If the girl would have looked at the climber it would probably not have been an accident. However, with the "new"method the chances of catching an unforseen fall increase, without any cost other then learning the new way (which is quite easy if you're used to a gri-gri).

First of all, I'm skeptical of the claim that inattention was the most important cause of this accident. How can a belayer be so inattentive that they fail to notice 50 feet of rope running through their hands? I think it is more likely that the belayer did see the fall (perhaps not immediately), reacted improperly to it and defeated the cam. Again, owing to lack of leverage, this is difficult to do if you're employing the classic method correctly, which further leads me to believe that she was not.

That said, it is completely inexcusable to not be paying close attention to your climber while they are clipping. How else can the belayer possibly know how much slack to pay out and how to properly react to a fall when the leader might have two armfuls of rope pulled out?

In reply to:
So considering the costs of the new benefits (very low) I don't see why you wouldn't do it. Sure the chance of it making a difference is small but if it does it makes a huge difference.

Cheers

I'm not convinced that the new method is actually safer than the old, provided the old method is correctly employed. With the new method I don't feel like I've got a secure grip on the rope while I'm pressing the cam down with my thumb. You can't actually hold the rope while pulling slack out (maybe with a thin enough or slick enough rope you can). In fact, I find that any friction between my hand and the rope makes it harder and slower to pull rope out. Consequently, I have a very loose grip on the rope (really not a grip at all) involving mainly my weakest two fingers, and not involving my thumb at all. That's not enough of a grip to guarantee that the cam will actuate in the event of a fall. I'm not convinced that if the rope starts to run that I could maintain control of it long enough to get my whole brake hand on the rope. In fact, I'm not convinced that the rope cannot by yanked out of my hand entirely.

In contrast, with the classic method, I've almost always got at least my thumb and one or two of my strongest fingers around the rope. Even if the rope starts to run, it's not going to get jerked out my hand, and I can easily slide my hand down the rope a couple inches to get my whole brake hand on it. The only time I ever have no part of my brake hand on the rope is when the rope is so worn, dirty, or thick that I have to move my hand further up the lever in order to squeeze the cam hard enough to get rope out. Even then, sliding my hand back down on to the rope is quick, simple, and secure; and, if the rope is that difficult to get through the grigri, the grigri is going to lock up without assistance, anyway.

Jay
I think this was actually a pretty good post about feeding slack with the grigri and the fact you got four one star ratings is either an indication that some people around here don't have a clue or else you've got them so pissed off they can't see a good post when it hits them right between the eyes.


currupt4130


Nov 15, 2010, 5:19 PM
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I was out climbing the other day and saw a girl doing this. Made me think of this thread and figured I'd post a picture. She had her thumb on the cam and was holding it down the entire time.




(This post was edited by currupt4130 on Nov 15, 2010, 5:21 PM)
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airscape


Nov 16, 2010, 1:11 AM
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currupt4130 wrote:
I was out climbing the other day and saw a girl doing this. Made me think of this thread and figured I'd post a picture. She had her thumb on the cam and was holding it down the entire time.

[image]http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=5355;[/image]

Lying, cheating, son of a bitch husband on the sharp end?


lena_chita
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Nov 16, 2010, 7:00 AM
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currupt4130 wrote:
I was out climbing the other day and saw a girl doing this. Made me think of this thread and figured I'd post a picture. She had her thumb on the cam and was holding it down the entire time.


not that I am saying that it is good, but her thumb is not on the cam in this picture... just saying.


Arrogant_Bastard


Nov 16, 2010, 8:50 AM
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lena_chita wrote:
currupt4130 wrote:
I was out climbing the other day and saw a girl doing this. Made me think of this thread and figured I'd post a picture. She had her thumb on the cam and was holding it down the entire time.


not that I am saying that it is good, but her thumb is not on the cam in this picture... just saying.

I think he's just trying to find an excuse for having pictures of girls standing next to him at the crags and feeling a need to post them on the internet.


ClimbSoHigh


Nov 16, 2010, 9:12 AM
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Oh, that's my belayer... HI!!







At least she is looking up! Laugh


jt512


Nov 16, 2010, 9:22 AM
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lena_chita wrote:
currupt4130 wrote:
I was out climbing the other day and saw a girl doing this. Made me think of this thread and figured I'd post a picture. She had her thumb on the cam and was holding it down the entire time.


not that I am saying that it is good, but her thumb is not on the cam in this picture... just saying.

I can't actually see her thumb, but from the position of her hand I think it would just about have to be on the cam.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Nov 16, 2010, 9:22 AM)


vegastradguy


Nov 16, 2010, 9:32 AM
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i can see her thumb (the top of it) and its definitely on the cam.

glad shes not my belayer.


kennoyce


Nov 16, 2010, 12:05 PM
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jt512 wrote:
lena_chita wrote:
currupt4130 wrote:
I was out climbing the other day and saw a girl doing this. Made me think of this thread and figured I'd post a picture. She had her thumb on the cam and was holding it down the entire time.

[image]http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=5355;[/image]

not that I am saying that it is good, but her thumb is not on the cam in this picture... just saying.

I can't actually see her thumb, but from the position of her hand I think it would just about have to be on the cam.

Jay

It does look like her thumb is on the cam. While this is certainly not an acceptable practice by any stretch of the imagination, it is the most common mistake I see of people using the "New" belay method.

My personal favorite thing about the photo is the fact that her hands are in the incorrect "New" method position (thumb on the cam) except that she is not holding onto the brake side of the rope at all. With her brake hand in its current position, there is no way she could easily get her brake hand onto the brake side of the rope meaning that she is completely relying on the cam (which of course is being held open with her thumb) to catch the fall.

I certainly hope that currupt4130 said something to her and didn't just let her continue to belay in this fashion.


Arrogant_Bastard


Nov 16, 2010, 12:30 PM
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kennoyce wrote:
I certainly hope that currupt4130 said something to her and didn't just let her continue to belay in this fashion.

Does posting a pic of her on the internet count?


currupt4130


Nov 16, 2010, 3:51 PM
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Of course it does.

I said something to her partner, figured it would be better to let him address it.


Partner cracklover


Nov 16, 2010, 5:00 PM
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Come on, haven't we all seen grigri users who pretty much *never* hold the brake strand, except to pull in slack, and always have their right hand gripping the whole device? I mean, there's a ton of really shitty belayers out there. I'm sorry another climber decked because of it, but do you need to call this chick out on the internet? With a photo, no less. I don't need to see that shit - I can see it at Rifle any day of the week.

Lame.

GO


Arrogant_Bastard


Nov 16, 2010, 5:04 PM
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cracklover wrote:
Come on, haven't we all seen grigri users who pretty much *never* hold the brake strand, except to pull in slack, and always have their right hand gripping the whole device? I mean, there's a ton of really shitty belayers out there. I'm sorry another climber decked because of it, but do you need to call this chick out on the internet? With a photo, no less. I don't need to see that shit - I can see it at Rifle any day of the week.

Lame.

GO

For all we know she's pulling out slack in this photo. ZOMG!!!


currupt4130


Nov 16, 2010, 5:36 PM
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cracklover wrote:
Come on, haven't we all seen grigri users who pretty much *never* hold the brake strand, except to pull in slack, and always have their right hand gripping the whole device? I mean, there's a ton of really shitty belayers out there. I'm sorry another climber decked because of it, but do you need to call this chick out on the internet? With a photo, no less. I don't need to see that shit - I can see it at Rifle any day of the week.

Lame.

GO

I wouldn't have put it up if her face was in it. I never gave her name, nor the location or date.


patto


Nov 16, 2010, 6:14 PM
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Arrogant_Bastard wrote:
For all we know she's pulling out slack in this photo. ZOMG!!!

And if she was pulling out slack you would consider this acceptable practice!!!??? Shocked

Remind me not to accept your belay. Hand on brake rope at all times thanks.


jape


Nov 18, 2010, 6:25 AM
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it looks like kind of what I call the "lazy thumb" position where if you aren't paying attention your thumb wings off...

I've paid a lot more attention and am still trying to work out the kinks in gri belaying, used to have bad habits for sure....never dropped someone and have caught a lot of falls, but it's nothing to deek around with.


(This post was edited by jape on Nov 18, 2010, 6:32 AM)


jape


Nov 18, 2010, 6:34 AM
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currupt4130 wrote:
Of course it does.

I said something to her partner, figured it would be better to let him address it.

What did you say? This is a tricky situation, last time I told someone their belayer let go with their brake a ton (ATC) the lead climber was pretty livid and I felt like a tattler....

Time before gri-gri was upside down and they were glad to have the knowledge...so I'm about .500...


bill413


Nov 18, 2010, 7:06 AM
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jape wrote:
it looks like kind of what I call the "lazy thumb" position where if you aren't paying attention your thumb wings off...

I've paid a lot more attention and am still trying to work out the kinks in gri belaying, used to have bad habits for sure....never dropped someone and have caught a lot of falls, but it's nothing to deek around with.

Your thumb wings off if the GriGri starts to catch. Not guaranteed without resistance on the brake strand.
A better way to execute this technique is to have the rope held in the same hand that is holding down the cam.


jt512


Nov 18, 2010, 10:01 AM
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bill413 wrote:
jape wrote:
it looks like kind of what I call the "lazy thumb" position where if you aren't paying attention your thumb wings off...

I've paid a lot more attention and am still trying to work out the kinks in gri belaying, used to have bad habits for sure....never dropped someone and have caught a lot of falls, but it's nothing to deek around with.

Your thumb wings off if the GriGri starts to catch. Not guaranteed without resistance on the brake strand.
A better way to execute this technique is to have the rope held in the same hand that is holding down the cam.

It's not clear to me from the picture what she's doing with the other fingers of her "brake hand." If she is holding the body of the grigri with them, then what she is doing is flat-out dangerous. Her thumb won't be forced off the cam if the climber falls. On the contrary, accidents have occurred using this very "technique" when the belayer instinctively clamped down on the cam with her "brake hand" in response to a fall.

Keeping the thumb of the brake hand on the cam is safe only if you are continuously holding the brake side of the rope with the same hand.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Nov 18, 2010, 11:24 PM)


jape


Nov 19, 2010, 7:13 AM
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jt512 wrote:
bill413 wrote:
jape wrote:
it looks like kind of what I call the "lazy thumb" position where if you aren't paying attention your thumb wings off...

I've paid a lot more attention and am still trying to work out the kinks in gri belaying, used to have bad habits for sure....never dropped someone and have caught a lot of falls, but it's nothing to deek around with.

Your thumb wings off if the GriGri starts to catch. Not guaranteed without resistance on the brake strand.
A better way to execute this technique is to have the rope held in the same hand that is holding down the cam.

It's not clear to me from the picture what she's doing with the other fingers of her "brake hand." If she is holding the body of the grigri with them, then what she is doing is flat-out dangerous. Her thumb won't be forced off the cam if the climber falls. On the contrary, accidents have occurred using this very "technique" when the belayer instinctively clamped down on the cam with her "brake hand" in response to a fall.

Keeping the thumb of the brake hand on the cam is safe only if you are continuously holding the brake side of the rope with the same hand.

Jay

Absolutely. I try not to use the thumb at all these days, prefering the pinkycam /underhand brake slide

Too many variables to call on whether "lazy thumb" catches... (ie, rope diameter. a climber over 200lb may "wing" the thumb, but 120 not so much, yikes)but I hope we can all agree she's doing a poor job of "completely" belaying safely.


squierbypetzl
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Nov 22, 2010, 2:13 AM
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currupt4130 wrote:
cracklover wrote:
Come on, haven't we all seen grigri users who pretty much *never* hold the brake strand, except to pull in slack, and always have their right hand gripping the whole device? I mean, there's a ton of really shitty belayers out there. I'm sorry another climber decked because of it, but do you need to call this chick out on the internet? With a photo, no less. I don't need to see that shit - I can see it at Rifle any day of the week.

Lame.

GO

I wouldn't have put it up if her face was in it. I never gave her name, nor the location or date.

1) Remember forum rules. Please avoid an argument about how posting this picture was lame or not. Thx.

2) Where were you on november 10th, at approximately 1:32pm?


Partner cracklover


Nov 22, 2010, 10:42 AM
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squierbypetzl wrote:
currupt4130 wrote:
cracklover wrote:
Come on, haven't we all seen grigri users who pretty much *never* hold the brake strand, except to pull in slack, and always have their right hand gripping the whole device? I mean, there's a ton of really shitty belayers out there. I'm sorry another climber decked because of it, but do you need to call this chick out on the internet? With a photo, no less. I don't need to see that shit - I can see it at Rifle any day of the week.

Lame.

GO

I wouldn't have put it up if her face was in it. I never gave her name, nor the location or date.

1) Remember forum rules. Please avoid an argument about how posting this picture was lame or not. Thx.

2) Where were you on november 10th, at approximately 1:32pm?

I can't tell if you're serious about both of these, just one or the other, or neither.

Happy to answer either issue if you're serious.

GO


squierbypetzl
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Nov 22, 2010, 1:24 PM
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I got me a new job working the night shift from home editing stuff for Big Corp. I was drinking with a friend, meant to mention how you revealed more about yourself and the girl in the pic than you probably though.

A quick peek at your pic's exif data reveals it was taken at that precise time on that precise date (or perhaps it was october 11th?). Didn't have time to check, but if it was taken with a phone or one of the newer pro level digital cams, the exif info. also contains the gps location of where the pic was taken.

Her thumb is definitely on top of the cam.


Partner cracklover


Nov 23, 2010, 3:46 PM
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squierbypetzl wrote:
I got me a new job working the night shift from home editing stuff for Big Corp. I was drinking with a friend, meant to mention how you revealed more about yourself and the girl in the pic than you probably though.

A quick peek at your pic's exif data reveals it was taken at that precise time on that precise date (or perhaps it was october 11th?). Didn't have time to check, but if it was taken with a phone or one of the newer pro level digital cams, the exif info. also contains the gps location of where the pic was taken.

Her thumb is definitely on top of the cam.

I have no idea what you're talking about. My pic? Are you drunk? I didn't post a pic, I'm commenting on a pic someone else posted. If you mean to imply I have some personal connection with the girl in the pic, you're mistaken.

You didn't answer my question, but I'll answer yours anyway.

1 - On November 10 I was home, working.

2 - How is it wrong to call someone out for posting a pic in I&A that has nothing to do with the accident in question? Beyond my one post on the subject there was no further arguing. I stated my opinion that I thought posting the pic was a lousy thing to do and served no purpose. And I didn't respond any further on that line, precisely because no argument on the subject is merited. If he feels differently than I, so be it. I stated my feelings on the subject and he can do with that as he sees fit.

GO


Partner cracklover


Nov 23, 2010, 3:48 PM
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And if you were, then may I request that you please refrain from moderating while drunk.

Thanks,

GO


squierbypetzl
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Nov 23, 2010, 6:51 PM
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Sheesh. Your reading comprehension seems to have failed you here, man.

squierbypetzl wrote:
currupt4130 wrote:
cracklover wrote:
Come on, haven't we all seen grigri users who pretty much *never* hold the brake strand, except to pull in slack, and always have their right hand gripping the whole device? I mean, there's a ton of really shitty belayers out there. I'm sorry another climber decked because of it, but do you need to call this chick out on the internet? With a photo, no less. I don't need to see that shit - I can see it at Rifle any day of the week.

Lame.

GO

I wouldn't have put it up if her face was in it. I never gave her name, nor the location or date.

1) Remember forum rules. Please avoid an argument about how posting this picture was lame or not. Thx.

2) Where were you on november 10th, at approximately 1:32pm?

If you read carefully, you'll notice I was talking to currupt, in reference to the pic he posted. Perhaps the mixup stems from me not realizing that you (not currupt) had answered with this post:

In reply to:
I can't tell if you're serious about both of these, just one or the other, or neither.

Happy to answer either issue if you're serious.

GO

and my subsequent answer to it (taking for granted that currupt, not cracklover, had responded to my post). I don't really know why you thought it had something to do with you in the first place.

In any case, I'd like to suggest we go back to discussing the subject of this thread.


Partner cracklover


Nov 23, 2010, 9:35 PM
Post #142 of 142 (2398 views)
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Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 10015

Re: [squierbypetzl] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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Can't Post

Ah, a bunch of misunderstandings, it seems. Never mind, then.

GO


Forums : Climbing Information : Accident and Incident Analysis

 


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