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billcoe_


Sep 17, 2010, 8:40 PM
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Re: [jt512] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
So, how much experience do you have using a grigri, and how do you feed slack rapidly for clipping without taking your brake hand off the rope?

Jay

I was wondering that when I got to JTs question as well as I use the recommended Pinch way to hold a Cinch for a Grigri as well. AS I own both, it's much more common for me to use a Cinch those few times I do use an assisted device. I see that the link answers it with a great diagram. I need to reprogram myself now, along with everyone else I know it appears.

I've always wondered about lead climbing with a Gri Gri belay. I've figured it was because I learned on an ATC first that I am more comfortable with one of those. To me, the complexity of where your hands need to be to make it work just seems less safe than an ATC, and in fact more skill is actually needed. Yet often, those choosing an assisted device like a Grigri or a Cinch have less experience.

Stmbtclimber pretty much gives the lie to her inexperience. Perhaps this is easier to cause happen than many of us chose to believe. We see these stories all of the time. Perhaps it's a heads up that all of us should stop being so damn smug and complacent. Elsewhere on that thread another person notes that it was threaded correctly. STMBT says :
stmbtclimber wrote:
An update on the climbers that had the accident at Military Wall, and the dog died... It was my niece and her boyfriend. He broke his ankle, but will be okay. The dog was the best little dog around, a mutt poodle mix, only a few pounds and named "Pepper" She lived a long life and will be greatly missed. The fact that he landed on her, may have prevented him from being more seriously harmed. So we take some solace in that fact. They are both very shaken up from this and I'm not sure how it happened yet. They are experienced climbers, and have climbed at the Gorge for many years. Not some idiots some of you have suggested. I am a mountain guide in Colorado and have been climbing a long time, and was the first to teach my niece how to climb when she was a little girl. I have personally shown her how to use a Gri Gri correctly. As I have not talked to her yet about the details, but have read the posts here, it sounds like she was holding the gri gri open to feed rope, at the wrong time, as he happened to slip and fall trying a difficult move, and didn't alert her to his fall. Regardless, it just goes to show that we all need to be vigilant, especially at a busy area with many distractions. Sometimes at a fun, busy sport climbing spot, it can be a very social scene, and one can easily begin to feel that the climbing is not that dangerous, but it always is, and you must always pay close attention to your climber when on belay.

Wishing them all well in the mind (Belayer, climber, witness/first responders). Be safe all!


moose_droppings


Sep 17, 2010, 9:09 PM
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Re: [billcoe_] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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In reply to:
As I have not talked to her yet about the details, but have read the posts here, it sounds like she was holding the gri gri open to feed rope, at the wrong time, as he happened to slip and fall trying a difficult move, and didn't alert her to his fall.

Not trying to blame anyone here, just saying, there should never be a need to alert your belayer that your going to fall. It may be helpful, but should never be necessary.


theguy


Sep 17, 2010, 9:18 PM
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Re: [jt512] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
patto wrote:
That thread is scarily full of incompetence that puts rockclimbing.com to shame.
Shocked

I'm going to guess that, since you are shocked by that statement, you don't use a grigri much, if at all, right?

Jay

And Jay fearlessly steps up to prove you wrongCrazy


pdpcardsfan


Sep 17, 2010, 9:33 PM
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Re: [imnotclever] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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no, the dog was named LuckyWink


notapplicable


Sep 17, 2010, 10:40 PM
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Re: [pdpcardsfan] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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After reading the first several pages of the linked thread, I have to say that I would be absolutely horrified if I dropped someone and my friends started making excuses for me and basically said, "ah, it could happen to anyone..."

Just shameful.

And I'm not talking about the belayer either. Yes, she made some serious mistakes but she can learn from them. There is no excuse for those who are simply waving off these kinds of "accidents" as just a part of the sport though. It's almost like they don't think more should be expected of a belayer. It's madness.

A truly good belay is an art and the belayer can have a hundred and one duties on any given climb, but they only ever have one job. Keep the climber off the deck. Period.


majid_sabet


Sep 18, 2010, 12:10 AM
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Re: [robdotcalm] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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Gri Gri= Condom

the consequences can be sever


iknowfear


Sep 18, 2010, 4:46 AM
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Re: [jt512] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
patto wrote:
jt512 wrote:
I'm going to guess that, since you are shocked by that statement, you don't use a grigri much, if at all, right?

Jay

Shocked

Wrong.

When I use the grigri I never take my hand off the brake to feed slack. Its dangerous as numerous accidents have shown and goes against all common sense of proper belaying.

So, how much experience do you have using a grigri, and how do you feed slack rapidly for clipping without taking your brake hand off the rope?

Jay

Don't know a bout the others, but I use the "Gaswerk-Method" (Also called "new technique") It requires a bit of practice, but you do not have to let go of the brake strand to feed rope quickly.
http://www.youtube.com/...&feature=related Starting at 2:42

However, if I had a $ or € for the every gri-gri I see firmly held in "open" mode during the entrie climb, I could build myself quite a climbing wall.
For me, a gri-gri is something that makes me extremly nervous when I see it in some peoples (newbish) hands, while I'm not bothered when good belayers use one...


billcoe_


Sep 18, 2010, 7:44 AM
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Re: [iknowfear] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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iknowfear wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/...&feature=related Starting at 2:42

I've tried that many times as that's the natural transfer form an ATC. Never worked for me. Maybe I need to use smaller ropes. I'll try that again with a smaller rope, but when a person is clipping, it always seems like it locks up with your hands in that position. I don't think I like the way they have the cam held open with the thumb in the middle any better than the Cinch method transferred to a Gri gri. That looks like a sudden fall might create a massive rope zipping effect.


jt512


Sep 18, 2010, 8:12 AM
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Re: [billcoe_] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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billcoe_ wrote:
iknowfear wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/...&feature=related Starting at 2:42

I've tried that many times as that's the natural transfer form an ATC. Never worked for me. Maybe I need to use smaller ropes. I'll try that again with a smaller rope, but when a person is clipping, it always seems like it locks up with your hands in that position.

Using that technique the Grigri will lock up when the leader is clipping, unless you block the cam with your thumb.

In reply to:
I don't think I like the way they have the cam held open with the thumb in the middle....

Blocking the cam with the thumb of the brake hand is the whole point of the technique: you have to do something to prevent the cam from engaging when feeding slack for a clip, and keeping a thumb-up hold on the rope with the brake hand allows you to maintain your grip on the brake side of the rope while blocking the cam.

In reply to:
That looks like a sudden fall might create a massive rope zipping effect.

If you use the technique properly, I think you'll see that that cannot happen. You don't squeeze or grip the device to hold the cam open; you just press down with your thumb. In a lead fall, I don't think you could hold the cam open like that, even if you wanted to; but, surely, as a highly experienced climber, your natural response to a fall would be to lock off the rope, anyway.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Sep 18, 2010, 8:20 AM)


patto


Sep 18, 2010, 11:35 PM
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Re: [jt512] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
So, how much experience do you have using a grigri, and how do you feed slack rapidly for clipping without taking your brake hand off the rope?

Jay

Whats with the 20 questions Jay? Do you suggest that a competent belay can be given if the brake strand is occasionally let go?

If I need to feed slack to the climber rapidly then I use 'Technique 2' from the previously linked video.

That said I mostly don't need to rapidly feed slack to my leader. An attentive belay and i rarely need a super fast feed. Though high sport climbing clips obvious need lots of slack. Much of my climbing is trad so a fast feed is less common.


chossmonkey


Sep 19, 2010, 6:26 AM
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Re: [jt512] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
patto wrote:
That thread is scarily full of incompetence that puts rockclimbing.com to shame. I don't want to go climbing at red river.

"Lets not make this personal, but I do want to learn from this. I have never seen anybody use the technique shown here by Petzl. I'll give it a try tomorrow at the gym.

Right or wrong - most everybody using a gri-gri takes their hand off the brake to feed slack. I can use a gri-gri just like an ATC to slowly feed out rope. I can also loop a few feet of rope and hold the cam with my thumb while keeping my index fingers on the rope - I can feed a few feet quickly this way. But when my climber needs a lot of slack to clip quickly - I take my hand off the brake - BRIEFLY. More importantly, my thumb is only on the cam for the half second in which I am yanking rope out. I am open minded to there being a better way - but lets not claim this method caused this accident. The only way a climber is decking from 50 feet is if you death grip the cam."
Shocked

I'm going to guess that, since you are shocked by that statement, you don't use a grigri much, if at all, right?

Jay

So its okay for your belayer to take their hand off the rope when feeding slack but they need to keep both hands on it while lowering?Crazy


I normally don't have to take my hand off the rope when feeding. I use a grigri 99% of the time. I use the "new" method.

Perhaps it too much of an advanced technique for you?


jt512


Sep 19, 2010, 8:07 AM
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Re: [patto] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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patto wrote:
jt512 wrote:
So, how much experience do you have using a grigri, and how do you feed slack rapidly for clipping without taking your brake hand off the rope?

Jay

Whats with the 20 questions Jay?

I'm trying to understand how you can be so shocked at the basically accurate comment that most greigri users will sometimes let go of the brake side of the rope in order to feed slack quickly.

In reply to:
Do you suggest that a competent belay can be given if the brake strand is occasionally let go?

Yes, using "classic" Petzl-approved belay method in the video.

In reply to:
If I need to feed slack to the climber rapidly then I use 'Technique 2' from the previously linked video.

That said I mostly don't need to rapidly feed slack to my leader. An attentive belay and i rarely need a super fast feed. Though high sport climbing clips obvious need lots of slack. Much of my climbing is trad so a fast feed is less common.

So you have little experience using a grigri for the type of climbing it was designed for (sport climbing). That explains why you were so surprised at the comment.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Sep 19, 2010, 8:11 AM)


jt512


Sep 19, 2010, 8:18 AM
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Re: [chossmonkey] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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chossmonkey wrote:
jt512 wrote:
patto wrote:
That thread is scarily full of incompetence that puts rockclimbing.com to shame. I don't want to go climbing at red river.

"Lets not make this personal, but I do want to learn from this. I have never seen anybody use the technique shown here by Petzl. I'll give it a try tomorrow at the gym.

Right or wrong - most everybody using a gri-gri takes their hand off the brake to feed slack. I can use a gri-gri just like an ATC to slowly feed out rope. I can also loop a few feet of rope and hold the cam with my thumb while keeping my index fingers on the rope - I can feed a few feet quickly this way. But when my climber needs a lot of slack to clip quickly - I take my hand off the brake - BRIEFLY. More importantly, my thumb is only on the cam for the half second in which I am yanking rope out. I am open minded to there being a better way - but lets not claim this method caused this accident. The only way a climber is decking from 50 feet is if you death grip the cam."
Shocked

I'm going to guess that, since you are shocked by that statement, you don't use a grigri much, if at all, right?

Jay

So its okay for your belayer to take their hand off the rope when feeding slack but they need to keep both hands on it while lowering?Crazy

The vast majority of the time someone posts that idiotic smiley, they must mean "see what an idiotic thing I just said!" Who the hell thinks they have to keep two hands on the rope to lower with a Grigri?

In reply to:
I normally don't have to take my hand off the rope when feeding. I use a grigri 99% of the time. I use the "new" method.

Perhaps it too much of an advanced technique for you?

I sometimes use a variant of that technique. I think it's basically fine, but a little too difficult to get a lot of rope out quickly when using some ropes. But the "classic" technique, done properly, is perfectly safe as well.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Sep 19, 2010, 8:27 AM)


patto


Sep 19, 2010, 2:18 PM
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Re: [jt512] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
In reply to:
Do you suggest that a competent belay can be given if the brake strand is occasionally let go?

Yes, using "classic" Petzl-approved belay method in the video.

Current GriGri instructions specify that you must NEVER let go of the brake strand.
To my knowledge all previous GriGri instructions specified that you must NEVER let go of the brake strand.


If you are letting go of the brake strand then you are doing it wrong. The video mention specifically mentions reduced grip, not no grip during the 'classic' grigri style.

Personally I would not let you belay me if you used this technique and you released your grip of the brake rope.

In reply to:
So you have little experience using a grigri for the type of climbing it was designed for (sport climbing). That explains why you were so surprised at the comment.

I don't have little experience with grigri or sport climbing. I've done plenty of sport climbing and have used and been belay by the grigri all the time. (Heading out next week for a week long sport climbing trip)

Maybe I just climb with competent belayers who DON'T let go of the brake hand?

(I generally don't go climbing with US sport gumbies that seemed to inhabit places like red river.)


five


Sep 19, 2010, 3:58 PM
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Re: [patto] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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If you are unaware of this, jt512 has been climbing for 20 years and knows everything about everything.
If you argue with him ,his erroneous posts will keep getting longer… and longer…….. and longer………………….
Then he will bitch about how much garbage is in the thread. Wee wee wee


jt512


Sep 19, 2010, 4:17 PM
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Re: [patto] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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patto wrote:
jt512 wrote:
In reply to:
Do you suggest that a competent belay can be given if the brake strand is occasionally let go?

Yes, using "classic" Petzl-approved belay method in the video.

Current GriGri instructions specify that you must NEVER let go of the brake strand.
To my knowledge all previous GriGri instructions specified that you must NEVER let go of the brake strand.


If you are letting go of the brake strand then you are doing it wrong. The video mention specifically mentions reduced grip, not no grip during the 'classic' grigri style.

Well, you're right about one thing. They've changed their instructions, which now only describe "method 2" in the video for feeding slack quickly. However, older versions of the instructions did say that it was permissible to use what they now call the "classic" method, and they did not show the index finger and thumb around the rope, as they seem to in the video. Keeping the index finger and thumb around the rope was a climber innovation.

Here are Petzl's instructions for how to pay out slack quickly with a grigri from an old version of their website. Click on "Paying out slack with a grigri." This is what they advocated for years.

Below is the relevant picture from the web page. Note the belayer's belay hand position in the third frame. It's not touching the rope.



Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Sep 19, 2010, 4:58 PM)
Attachments: grip57_438x138.GIF (12.6 KB)


chossmonkey


Sep 19, 2010, 6:26 PM
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Re: [jt512] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:

The vast majority of the time someone posts that idiotic smiley, they must mean "see what an idiotic thing I just said!"

Funny you don't use them.




jt512 wrote:
Who the hell thinks they have to keep two hands on the rope to lower with a Grigri?


Apparently you.....

jt512 wrote:
In twenty-some years of climbing, the only climber that ever refused to lower me with two hands on the brake side of the rope, when requested, lowered me precisely one time, and will never be permitted to belay me again.

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...post=1621176#1621176

Maybe you wanna look up the part where you go on about lowering with a grigri with both hands on the break side? Its probably the same thread.


jt512


Sep 19, 2010, 6:34 PM
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Re: [chossmonkey] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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chossmonkey wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Who the hell thinks they have to keep two hands on the rope to lower with a Grigri?


Apparently you.....

jt512 wrote:
In twenty-some years of climbing, the only climber that ever refused to lower me with two hands on the brake side of the rope, when requested, lowered me precisely one time, and will never be permitted to belay me again.

Massive failure in reading comprehension. Please explain how you managed to infer from that how I think two hands need to be on the rope when lowering with a grigri. Clown.

Jay


socalclimber


Sep 19, 2010, 8:53 PM
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jt512 wrote:
patto wrote:
jt512 wrote:
In reply to:
Do you suggest that a competent belay can be given if the brake strand is occasionally let go?

Yes, using "classic" Petzl-approved belay method in the video.

Current GriGri instructions specify that you must NEVER let go of the brake strand.
To my knowledge all previous GriGri instructions specified that you must NEVER let go of the brake strand.


If you are letting go of the brake strand then you are doing it wrong. The video mention specifically mentions reduced grip, not no grip during the 'classic' grigri style.

Well, you're right about one thing. They've changed their instructions, which now only describe "method 2" in the video for feeding slack quickly. However, older versions of the instructions did say that it was permissible to use what they now call the "classic" method, and they did not show the index finger and thumb around the rope, as they seem to in the video. Keeping the index finger and thumb around the rope was a climber innovation.

Here are Petzl's instructions for how to pay out slack quickly with a grigri from an old version of their website. Click on "Paying out slack with a grigri." This is what they advocated for years.

Below is the relevant picture from the web page. Note the belayer's belay hand position in the third frame. It's not touching the rope.



Jay

Well, that's the way I learned to use a GriGri as well. Granted, I have only used it for top rope belaying or when working. As far using for lead climbing, my main experience is with aid climbing.


notapplicable


Sep 19, 2010, 11:03 PM
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Re: [chossmonkey] Grigri mistake, climber decks [In reply to]
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chossmonkey wrote:
I use a grigri 99% of the time

OMG, on the gear routes too?!?!

You must go though partners like a fat lady though BonBons.


I_do


Sep 19, 2010, 11:31 PM
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jt512 wrote:
patto wrote:
jt512 wrote:
In reply to:
Do you suggest that a competent belay can be given if the brake strand is occasionally let go?

Yes, using "classic" Petzl-approved belay method in the video.

Current GriGri instructions specify that you must NEVER let go of the brake strand.
To my knowledge all previous GriGri instructions specified that you must NEVER let go of the brake strand.


If you are letting go of the brake strand then you are doing it wrong. The video mention specifically mentions reduced grip, not no grip during the 'classic' grigri style.

Well, you're right about one thing. They've changed their instructions, which now only describe "method 2" in the video for feeding slack quickly. However, older versions of the instructions did say that it was permissible to use what they now call the "classic" method, and they did not show the index finger and thumb around the rope, as they seem to in the video. Keeping the index finger and thumb around the rope was a climber innovation.

Here are Petzl's instructions for how to pay out slack quickly with a grigri from an old version of their website. Click on "Paying out slack with a grigri." This is what they advocated for years.

Below is the relevant picture from the web page. Note the belayer's belay hand position in the third frame. It's not touching the rope.



Jay

With all your anal safety gripes you actually think that's a good or even acceptable idea?

Sheez, there's a reason they changed the instructions, get with the times.


chossmonkey


Sep 20, 2010, 3:43 AM
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notapplicable wrote:
chossmonkey wrote:
I use a grigri 99% of the time

OMG, on the gear routes too?!?!

You must go though partners like a fat lady though BonBons.

Partners are disposable!


notapplicable


Sep 20, 2010, 7:24 AM
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chossmonkey wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
chossmonkey wrote:
I use a grigri 99% of the time

OMG, on the gear routes too?!?!

You must go though partners like a fat lady though BonBons.

Partners are disposable!

GG PM'd!

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