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drivel


Sep 27, 2010, 6:03 PM
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Re: [petsfed] Would you consider this safe? [In reply to]
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I think this ptftw is safe.

But yeah, husband and friends= ass hats. What a dick move to change plans at the trailhead. OBVIOUSLY you did speak up that you didn't want to do that hike, or doing it would not have nesecitated changing the plans.


ClimbClimb


Sep 27, 2010, 8:49 PM
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Re: [klopik] Would you consider this safe? [In reply to]
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So I think the reality is that 99.999% or more of the time, babies do just fine in the situation as described (4 hours with just 1 adult in good weather and no previous distress) without any "Lifetime Television"-worthy disasters. Primates (and mammals generally) have taken care of their young in the wilderness for epochs. Except for the bears, you could probaby leave a baby alone in the camp site for 4 hours with minimal risk!

As for how it "feels," of course it should feel unsafe to most new mothers. That's what the maternal instinct is for!, and managing the feelings and relationships is not the question being asked here. Presumably, even if a partner felt unsafe being left w. baby in a darkened living room, there is some conversation to be had about how to properly deal with that -- on both sides.


smallclimber


Sep 28, 2010, 6:05 PM
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Re: [klopik] Would you consider this safe? [In reply to]
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It was a shame to read your post as up til now your adventures with your baby have been very inspirational to us. I won't comment on safety but it certainly didn't sound much fun for you and its a shame that your husband or friends didn't stand up for you.
However as a positive you did manage to do the hike and that in itself is an achievement. I also bet your husband does feel bad about this but maybe won't admit it now. Hopefully this is a one off and another time your wishes will be taken into consideration more. Don't give up doing this sort of stuff.


klopik


Sep 29, 2010, 1:01 PM
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Re: [smallclimber] Would you consider this safe? [In reply to]
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Thanks, smallclimber! Thats a really nice thing to say to me, I do appreciate it! Especially given that lately I feel like a total weakling and whiner who just ruined a great trip for everyone. No, my husband does not feel bad about what happened at all.
It did cost me dearly, btw, this trip had. I must have been pretty exhausted from these 3 days and the day after we came back I had a freak accident where my shoe slipped on the stairs, I fell down pretty badly and broke 4 bones in my foot. Oops... So, no hiking/climbing for me in any case for a while...
I am starting to think that perhaps I am best off just backing out from the scene for a while. Thats sort of what I gathered - that really the situation was pretty safe and I was just being an illogical hysterical female. If I feel unsafe in a safe situation - I shouldn't participate, right? And perhaps when little one is old enough to be left overnight with someone other then me, I can go hiking with friends I've hiked with before.


lena_chita
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Sep 29, 2010, 1:20 PM
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Re: [klopik] Would you consider this safe? [In reply to]
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Ouch, sorry about your foot! That's not fun anytime, but especially with a little one. I hope it heals quickly.

And i don't think anyone here is calling you a hysterical female.

Stress and exhaustion can do funny things to your body. Take care of yourself!


klopik


Sep 29, 2010, 1:29 PM
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No, everybody here has been great! My dear hubby is the one claiming I am a weakling and just plain whiney and hysterical. But I did gather that most people would consider the situation safe - I especially liked the comment that if it wasn't for bears, its almost safe to leave the baby in the tent by himself! ;)
Yep, my foot is healing, but not as fast as I was hoping for :(


wonderwoman


Sep 29, 2010, 1:34 PM
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klopik wrote:
that really the situation was pretty safe and I was just being an illogical hysterical female.

Never think this about yourself or any other woman. And certainly, don't ever let anybody get away saying this to you. Ever. Period.

You stated your reasons for your feelings and got a lot of support from folks here, including a ton of great feedback and insight from some of the great men on RC.com (major props to you guys!).

I am with the rest of the folks in saying that your partners were really crappy and unfair to you. If I were you, I would learn from this and find some other partners and make future plans.

PS - I am really sorry to hear about your foot. Frown


wonderwoman


Sep 29, 2010, 1:49 PM
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klopik wrote:
My dear hubby is the one claiming I am a weakling and just plain whiney and hysterical.

And you're okay with that?


klopik


Sep 29, 2010, 2:14 PM
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He has a right to his opinion, what I am trying to figure out if he is right or not. We did agree that we will try to live to the fullest with the baby - and that includes not being silly and overprotective if there is no need to be protective.
Makes sense? So, as far as he is concerned, since there was no real danger, I am being hysterical. I am trying to see if there is any validity to this.


petsfed


Sep 29, 2010, 2:37 PM
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klopik wrote:
He has a right to his opinion, what I am trying to figure out if he is right or not. We did agree that we will try to live to the fullest with the baby - and that includes not being silly and overprotective if there is no need to be protective.
Makes sense? So, as far as he is concerned, since there was no real danger, I am being hysterical. I am trying to see if there is any validity to this.

Let me put it another way, because I really don't think you're picking up what I'm putting down: I am a male. If my oldest climbing and backpacking partner, who is also male, did to me what your party did to you, when we got back to the trailhead, he wouldn't get back in the car without a black eye. I'm not a violent person, my buddy could take me in a fight with both legs broken, but that still wouldn't stop me. Forcing a person to solo without their consent is more than reason enough to break a partnership. Gender dynamics, parental instincts, all of that is secondary.

Put yet another way, your husbands claim is tantamount to saying "since we didn't need it last time, we shouldn't bring the first aid kit this time".


drivel


Sep 29, 2010, 4:48 PM
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klopik wrote:
My dear hubby is the one claiming I am a weakling and just plain whiney and hysterical.

um, if my husband said that to me, he'd be sleeping on the couch for a long god damned time. (baby or no baby)

just another perspective.


Partner macherry


Sep 29, 2010, 5:29 PM
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drivel wrote:
klopik wrote:
My dear hubby is the one claiming I am a weakling and just plain whiney and hysterical.

um, if my husband said that to me, he'd be sleeping on the couch for a long god damned time. (baby or no baby)

just another perspective.


werd


wonderwoman


Sep 29, 2010, 5:59 PM
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petsfed wrote:
klopik wrote:
He has a right to his opinion, what I am trying to figure out if he is right or not. We did agree that we will try to live to the fullest with the baby - and that includes not being silly and overprotective if there is no need to be protective.
Makes sense? So, as far as he is concerned, since there was no real danger, I am being hysterical. I am trying to see if there is any validity to this.

Let me put it another way, because I really don't think you're picking up what I'm putting down: I am a male. If my oldest climbing and backpacking partner, who is also male, did to me what your party did to you, when we got back to the trailhead, he wouldn't get back in the car without a black eye. I'm not a violent person, my buddy could take me in a fight with both legs broken, but that still wouldn't stop me. Forcing a person to solo without their consent is more than reason enough to break a partnership. Gender dynamics, parental instincts, all of that is secondary.

Put yet another way, your husbands claim is tantamount to saying "since we didn't need it last time, we shouldn't bring the first aid kit this time".

C'mon, now. Stop being hysterical.


blueeyedclimber


Sep 29, 2010, 7:00 PM
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klopik wrote:
He has a right to his opinion,

Read: He has the right to be a jerk.

In reply to:
what I am trying to figure out if he is right or not.

You have been given a lot of opinions on the matter. What do you think?


In reply to:
We did agree that we will try to live to the fullest with the baby - and that includes not being silly and overprotective if there is no need to be protective.

Does that include protecting your feelings? Should you just shake it off and pretend not to feel the way you feel?

In reply to:
Makes sense?

No.

In reply to:
So, as far as he is concerned, since there was no real danger, I am being hysterical.

I don't usually post in the ladies room, but you need to think hard about this statement. This is not just any partner, this is your husband.


In reply to:
I am trying to see if there is any validity to this.

Once again, what do you think? Because in the end, none of us know you, your husband, or how EXACTLY you feel.

Josh


chadnsc


Sep 29, 2010, 7:03 PM
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petsfed wrote:
klopik wrote:
He has a right to his opinion, what I am trying to figure out if he is right or not. We did agree that we will try to live to the fullest with the baby - and that includes not being silly and overprotective if there is no need to be protective.
Makes sense? So, as far as he is concerned, since there was no real danger, I am being hysterical. I am trying to see if there is any validity to this.

Let me put it another way, because I really don't think you're picking up what I'm putting down: I am a male. If my oldest climbing and backpacking partner, who is also male, did to me what your party did to you, when we got back to the trailhead, he wouldn't get back in the car without a black eye. I'm not a violent person, my buddy could take me in a fight with both legs broken, but that still wouldn't stop me. Forcing a person to solo without their consent is more than reason enough to break a partnership. Gender dynamics, parental instincts, all of that is secondary.

Put yet another way, your husbands claim is tantamount to saying "since we didn't need it last time, we shouldn't bring the first aid kit this time".

I have to agree with pets 100%.


aerili


Oct 1, 2010, 12:58 PM
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A 40 lb load for a 100 lb person is very heavy-- even when one is in normal shape for such things. I would recommend that you refuse to carry loads of that size in the future, unless you feel adequate to do so.

It seems like your next backpacking trip with your husband should be just the two of you with your baby. I think the addition of two more people to the mix was a great recipe to skew the pressure toward more strenuous options and a "majority rules" attitude, as you found out the hard way. Leave out additional friends until such later time that you are back in shape.


Partner happiegrrrl


Oct 1, 2010, 1:30 PM
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I agree with most of what has been said(though I haven't read the thread thorgoughly). To me, it seems that when you reached the trailhead and the others decided to go for a route you specifically said you didn't want to do, was the place to have said "Wait a minute!"

I don't have children but when I read that I was like "WTF?"

One thing I do wonder is whether you were vocal in making your initial(pre-trailhead) concern that there were some hikes you felt okay with clear enough. Also - when they went for that trail, it was NOT too late to say "Stop." Those were your obligations, knowing what you were comfortable with. If you said "Stop, I don't feel right about this," and they dismissed it all - then they are jerks. But if you sort of made an under-the-breath complaint and then went along with it....then that is where you failed in the thing.

I think it can be difficult for people who are the first or only ones to have a child. The others just can't know what a difference this makes, and it can be difficult to ease up on our objectives to accommodate another person. Still - it doesn't take an awful lot of brains to realize that to ease up is exactly what must be done.

I walked behind a couple at the Ice Caves here in NY a month or so ago, with their new baby. Mom was terrified of slipping(even though it wasn't really much of a possibility). Dad was clearly dissappointed that they had agreed to what was (probably) a very easy day for them, and here was mom balking. But he did the right thing: He did NOT belittle her. He did NOT try to cajole her into going passed her comfort zone. He DID offer to carry baby through, and when he saw that did nothing but make mom even less secure, he did the RIGHT thing, and said "You know, I think we have gone far enough, and though we thought this would be an easy hike for us, we had better go back. We can always come another time."(and I was pretty sure I saw, in the thought bubble above his head, that would be in about 18 years...hahahah).

I am sorry you had this experience with your friends and especially your husband.


clee03m


Oct 1, 2010, 3:37 PM
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klopik wrote:
We did agree that we will try to live to the fullest with the baby - and that includes not being silly and overprotective if there is no need to be protective.

This doesn't sit well with me. How can anyone expect such an agreement made during pregnancy to remain fulfilled after experiencing the reality of being parents?

My husband and I had agreed to live to the fullest with a baby as well. We had a complicated way of dividing out our weekdays and weekends to ensure I would be able climb as much as possible. That all changed when we had our baby. When my husband got back from his first weekend away from the baby, I told him no more until further notice. It was too much to do everything myself. And we both agree that other than work, I will not be away from the baby over night. It is too hard for them both.

I hope this is an isolated incident and doesn't reflect your marriage. I have to hope that he sees what kind of an asshole he was to you and feels shameful, but is too pig headed to admit it.


curt


Oct 1, 2010, 7:47 PM
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klopik wrote:
Never going backpacking with this group is not very realistic, at least with some member of it... given that I am married to the guy...

From the sounds of things, being married and having a baby is probably preventing you from realizing now what you will unfortunately be realizing soon enough.

Curt


karmiclimber


Oct 4, 2010, 12:07 PM
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klopik wrote:
Never going backpacking with this group is not very realistic, at least with some member of it... given that I am married to the guy.
But thanks. I do have the same attitude of not having the group separate, however, I still cannot put the actual reason to it.

Thats totally false! I'm engaged to a super sweet man that I love going on trips with...but 99 percent of my backpacking trips are with my girlfriends.

PS. I totally agree with everything Petsfed and Lena have said...they are right...and deep down, you have to know that.
PSS. I was a single mom. I left the dad who ditched me and our baby every weekend to climb mountains.


(This post was edited by karmiclimber on Oct 4, 2010, 12:10 PM)


klopik


Oct 4, 2010, 12:29 PM
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Do you take your child on the backpacking trips with your girlfriends?
Thats the big issue - you really do need two people to take care of a baby on the trip, and I would feel bad using one of my girlfriends every time, thats why until my son is at least a preschooler, I cannot imagine going on a trip with him but without my husband. And I don't want to leave my baby behind.


karmiclimber


Oct 4, 2010, 12:44 PM
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klopik wrote:
Do you take your child on the backpacking trips with your girlfriends?
Thats the big issue - you really do need two people to take care of a baby on the trip, and I would feel bad using one of my girlfriends every time, thats why until my son is at least a preschooler, I cannot imagine going on a trip with him but without my husband. And I don't want to leave my baby behind.

No girl. I take baby girl (she is four now) on one or two camping trips a year. My fiance always comes with us. We car camp and do a day hike (3-4 miles) or two. She is still slightly afraid of the tent, oh noes haha.
She stays with her grandparents when I go on my extended backpacking trips.
When she was a baby, I would take her on day hikes in the baby carrier. I was single at that point and didn't really have any friends who would go with me, so I went by myself with my daughter.
Honey, all I want to say is...I have been there. My ex used to call me crazy and hysterical when I was "over-protective" of my baby also. Now I am with a man who would never in a million years even think about me in that way. The grass IS greener on this side of the fence. Just saying...you make your own choices, obviously. But I wanted to let you know that I have been there and your life can be different if you want it to be. *hugs*


erisspirit


Oct 4, 2010, 3:10 PM
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I guess I feel that if you are knowingly going on a trip with young children or people is less than peak physical shape, you should go into it expecting to do a trip everyone can do. If you would rather do something much more challenging, then wait and plan a trip with only the people that can /want to do that.


karmiclimber


Oct 4, 2010, 3:35 PM
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Yup...to me that just sounds like common sense and common courtesy.


blkela


Oct 4, 2010, 11:18 PM
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klopik wrote:
He has a right to his opinion, what I am trying to figure out if he is right or not. We did agree that we will try to live to the fullest with the baby - and that includes not being silly and overprotective if there is no need to be protective.
Makes sense? So, as far as he is concerned, since there was no real danger, I am being hysterical. I am trying to see if there is any validity to this.
I'm a man, I'm married. my wife is pregnant with our forth child. Call me whooped, call me a puppy dog, call me what you want, it doesn't change the fact that 99% of the time I can tell when she doesn't want to do something that I want, at which point I say ok honey and sleep in bed, or the bird flies and I sleep in the pickup.
That being said...
On trips that my family and I have gone on with others, I wont leave her alone with the kids, especially in the wood. Sequoia, Kings Canyon, and surrounding areas is not the place to be left alone. In the wood, I do not believe there is such a thing as overprotective when it come to a child that young. Let me say this. " blah, blah. no real danger, blah, blah." What you and the rest of your group were doing, IS inherrently dangerous. To my knoledge and in my general experience, you do things in even numbers, unless you solo it.

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