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redlude97


Sep 24, 2010, 8:44 AM
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Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks
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Saw this at RRC.com, biner with deep groove cuts a rope after a lead fall at the first bolt.
http://www.redriverclimbing.com/...php?f=21&t=13270


socalclimber


Sep 24, 2010, 8:57 AM
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Re: [redlude97] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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Yow! That's a nasty groove! That's a biner that should have been retired long ago.


(This post was edited by socalclimber on Sep 24, 2010, 8:57 AM)


jt512


Sep 24, 2010, 9:31 AM
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Re: [redlude97] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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redlude97 wrote:
Saw this at RRC.com, biner with deep groove cuts a rope after a lead fall at the first bolt.
http://www.redriverclimbing.com/...php?f=21&t=13270

Well, that's an eye opener.

It is bizarre that the report goes into great detail about the quickdraw, but never mentions the brand, age, and condition of the rope.

As bad as that carabiner looks, there are a lot of biners out there just like that one. It seems a little strange that accidents like this have not happened more often. It'll be interesting to see if the investigators can reproduce the results.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Sep 24, 2010, 9:34 AM)


iron106


Sep 24, 2010, 9:32 AM
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Re: [socalclimber] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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I don't think the groove was actually that bad. I think the only problem was the sharpness of the groove. Worn biners are usually stronger than new ones.


captainstatic


Sep 24, 2010, 9:35 AM
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Re: [redlude97] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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That is a locked forum on RRC.com. The unlocked thread on this incident is http://www.redriverclimbing.com/...php?f=11&t=13271 and eventually includes pictures of the severed rope. Details of the accident are still under investigation. Please take note of what the owner of Muir Valley posted in this thread -

"Suggestion: Every time you climb, get into the habit of inspecting the fixed gear at the anchors and the stuff left hanging on the bolts. If it looks bad, either report it or replace it.

I hope we've made it profoundly clear in postings, waivers, warning signs, etc. that climbers should report any and all suspect gear found in Muir Valley to the owners. And, please do not take a magic marker and write a big note on the rock surface stating: "Do not climb here - loose bolt" as one visitor did. !?

Rick"



Partner drector


Sep 24, 2010, 9:43 AM
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Re: [redlude97] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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Someone could file down a 'biner to match the one that caused the failure then use it in a pull test to see when it cuts the rope. it would not be very scientific but it could help people understand how this might affect them in the field.


redlude97


Sep 24, 2010, 9:50 AM
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Re: [drector] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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drector wrote:
Someone could file down a 'biner to match the one that caused the failure then use it in a pull test to see when it cuts the rope. it would not be very scientific but it could help people understand how this might affect them in the field.
IIRC pull tests are not as dynamic as a fall which may not give an accurate representation of the cutting force. I believe they are going to try and replicate the accident with the rope/biner in question


csproul


Sep 24, 2010, 9:57 AM
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Re: [iron106] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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iron106 wrote:
I don't think the groove was actually that bad. I think the only problem was the sharpness of the groove. Worn biners are usually stronger than new ones.
??


bigo


Sep 24, 2010, 9:58 AM
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Re: [jt512] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
Saw this at RRC.com, biner with deep groove cuts a rope after a lead fall at the first bolt.
http://www.redriverclimbing.com/...php?f=21&t=13270

Well, that's an eye opener.

It is bizarre that the report goes into great detail about the quickdraw, but never mentions the brand, age, and condition of the rope.

As bad as that carabiner looks, there are a lot of biners out there just like that one. It seems a little strange that accidents like this have not happened more often. It'll be interesting to see if the investigators can reproduce the results.

Jay

Not really debating anything said in the above quote...

My wife took a relatively small lead fall onto a biner that looked very similar to that one at Maple Canyon. Our rope was less than one week old and the sheath was cut to the core. The sheath was not completely severed and the core was undamaged, but it required us to chop our brand new rope down 15' or so, that sucked.

Since then I have payed more attention to the fixed biners we are clipping and have found there are a lot of nasty sharply worn ones out there. The scenario that seems to lead to this kind of wear is a biner that is not fallen on or lowered on often and is under tension when a climber is lowered. This can be a draw that is shorter than than rest on a steep route, or a draw far off the plum line. Biners at the crux often have deep grooves worn in them but usually have softer edges. By extending fixed draws that are prone to this kind of wear, I think some of it can be mitigated.


(This post was edited by bigo on Sep 24, 2010, 10:07 AM)


redlude97


Sep 24, 2010, 9:59 AM
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Re: [csproul] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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csproul wrote:
iron106 wrote:
I don't think the groove was actually that bad. I think the only problem was the sharpness of the groove. Worn biners are usually stronger than new ones.
??
Worn biners have been shown to better concentrated the force along the spine and break at higher loads


csproul


Sep 24, 2010, 10:05 AM
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Re: [redlude97] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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redlude97 wrote:
csproul wrote:
iron106 wrote:
I don't think the groove was actually that bad. I think the only problem was the sharpness of the groove. Worn biners are usually stronger than new ones.
??
Worn biners have been shown to better concentrated the force along the spine and break at higher loads
I've never heard such a thing...I guess I'll have to take your word for it. I'm not sure of the relevance here, since it is the rope that broke, not the carabiner.


moose_droppings


Sep 24, 2010, 10:07 AM
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Re: [redlude97] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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redlude97 wrote:
csproul wrote:
iron106 wrote:
I don't think the groove was actually that bad. I think the only problem was the sharpness of the groove. Worn biners are usually stronger than new ones.
??
Worn biners have been shown to better concentrated the force along the spine and break at higher loads

So there not stronger.


dynosore


Sep 24, 2010, 10:09 AM
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Re: [redlude97] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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redlude97 wrote:
csproul wrote:
iron106 wrote:
I don't think the groove was actually that bad. I think the only problem was the sharpness of the groove. Worn biners are usually stronger than new ones.
??
Worn biners have been shown to better concentrated the force along the spine and break at higher loads

Then why don't they make them that cross sectional profile in the first place? Do you have a link to the data? I'm intrigued.

Edit: iPhone autospeeling strykes agen


(This post was edited by dynosore on Sep 24, 2010, 10:11 AM)


newrivermike


Sep 24, 2010, 10:23 AM
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Re: [redlude97] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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I've been predicting this occurence for a long time now and I'm glad it happened at the first bolt. Two things to be aware of here in addition to the obvious.

1. Watch out for fixed biners that incorporate an "I beam" or 'T-beam' type design in the bar stock. I don't know what they officially call this but many lightweight carabiners use it to shave weight. Petzl Spirits too. As they wear they carve into the thin section of metal and create a super sharp edge. This doesn't happen as severely on roundish bar stock carabiners like the BD hotwires or even standard ovals.

2. The most dangerous fixed carabiners are the first bolt and oftentimes biners that protect an easy section where no one ever falls or lowers. What happens is that the rope runs through the biner almost parallel to the rope bearing surface. The wear causes a flatness instead of a U shaped wear pattern. Very sharp.

I'm speculating but this accident was caused by three things. The flat worn edge due to the rope running parallel to the rope bearing surface, The carabiner being forged from 'T-stock' and finally, the hard fall generated when falling with a small amount of rope out.

I've gotten in the habit of roping up at the Red with 4 or 5 quicks even for fixed draw routes. Clipping my own when I see this stuff. These biners are EVERYWHERE! Seriously, be very careful.


(This post was edited by newrivermike on Sep 24, 2010, 10:27 AM)


jmeizis


Sep 24, 2010, 10:35 AM
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Re: [dynosore] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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I've noticed that some carabiner manufacturers have started making biners with more of a notch near the spine. Not sure if it's in response to the info about the worn carabiners. Anyways, here's something posted on BD's website about sharp biners: https://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/...ed-carabiner-en-glbl

Here's something about worn quickclips, not exactly the same but informative: http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/.../qc-lab-worn-anchors


redlude97


Sep 24, 2010, 12:03 PM
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Re: [moose_droppings] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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moose_droppings wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
csproul wrote:
iron106 wrote:
I don't think the groove was actually that bad. I think the only problem was the sharpness of the groove. Worn biners are usually stronger than new ones.
??
Worn biners have been shown to better concentrated the force along the spine and break at higher loads

So there not stronger.
??


jt512


Sep 24, 2010, 12:12 PM
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Re: [redlude97] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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redlude97 wrote:
moose_droppings wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
csproul wrote:
iron106 wrote:
I don't think the groove was actually that bad. I think the only problem was the sharpness of the groove. Worn biners are usually stronger than new ones.
??
Worn biners have been shown to better concentrated the force along the spine and break at higher loads

So there not stronger.
??

Could we please not derail this thread with a semantic argument about the meaning of the word "stronger."

Jay


moose_droppings


Sep 24, 2010, 12:14 PM
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Re: [redlude97] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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redlude97 wrote:
moose_droppings wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
csproul wrote:
iron106 wrote:
I don't think the groove was actually that bad. I think the only problem was the sharpness of the groove. Worn biners are usually stronger than new ones.
??
Worn biners have been shown to better concentrated the force along the spine and break at higher loads

So there not stronger.
??

The rope is forced into the part of the biner that can take more of a load. The biner itself is not stronger.


Edit; Sorry Jay, your right. I just saw your post after I had already replied.


(This post was edited by moose_droppings on Sep 24, 2010, 12:16 PM)


bearbreeder


Sep 24, 2010, 12:15 PM
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Re: [redlude97] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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when in doubt clip yr own draws


socalclimber


Sep 24, 2010, 12:51 PM
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Re: [bearbreeder] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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I've never climbed in this area, and I don't sport climb all that much, but I have to ask?

WHY THE FUCK ARE SPORT ROUTES FIXED WITH DRAWS?

Rap rings I can understand. But I just don't get this.

Would someone explain this to me?


(This post was edited by socalclimber on Sep 24, 2010, 12:55 PM)


jt512


Sep 24, 2010, 12:55 PM
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Re: [socalclimber] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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socalclimber wrote:
I've never climbed in this area, and I don't sport climb all that much, but I have to ask?

WHY THE FUCK ARE SPORT ROUTES FIXED WITH DRAWS?

Rap rings I can understand. But I just get this.

Would someone explain this to me?

It's so you don't have to put them up or take them down. Also, you can bail off the route safely and without sacrificing any gear.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Sep 24, 2010, 12:56 PM)


socalclimber


Sep 24, 2010, 12:56 PM
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Ok, so climbing has now sunk so low "climbers" don't even need to place gear.

Pathetic.


jt512


Sep 24, 2010, 12:59 PM
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socalclimber wrote:
Ok, so climbing has now sunk so low "climbers" don't even need to place gear.

Pathetic.

Why should placing quickdraws be such an important part of climbing?

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Sep 24, 2010, 3:26 PM)


kennoyce


Sep 24, 2010, 1:01 PM
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dynosore wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
csproul wrote:
iron106 wrote:
I don't think the groove was actually that bad. I think the only problem was the sharpness of the groove. Worn biners are usually stronger than new ones.
??
Worn biners have been shown to better concentrated the force along the spine and break at higher loads

Then why don't they make them that cross sectional profile in the first place? Do you have a link to the data? I'm intrigued.

Edit: iPhone autospeeling strykes agen

They do.









There are just a few examples for you.


kennoyce


Sep 24, 2010, 1:03 PM
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socalclimber wrote:
Ok, so climbing has now sunk so low "climbers" don't even need to place gear.

Pathetic.

Try retrieving the draws on an extremely overhung sport climb then come back and tell us how pathetic the preplaced draws were.


socalclimber


Sep 24, 2010, 1:08 PM
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You have to be kidding me?

Part of climbing is dealing with the gear, short of soloing.

I now understand why it's sport climbers that are routinely decking and dumping their partners on the ground.


(This post was edited by socalclimber on Sep 24, 2010, 1:15 PM)


jt512


Sep 24, 2010, 1:22 PM
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socalclimber wrote:
You have to be kidding me?

Part of climbing is dealing with the gear, short of soloing.

I'm shocked that someone who has been in the sport as long as you has such a misunderstanding of sport climbing, even if you don't do much of it yourself. Here is the definition of sport climbing from wikipedia:

"Sport climbing is a style of rock climbing that relies on permanent anchors fixed to the rock, especially bolts, for protection, in contrast with traditional climbing, in which the rock is typically devoid of fixed anchors, and climbers must place removable protection as they climb. Since the need to place protection is virtually eliminated, sport climbing places an emphasis on gymnastic ability, strength and endurance, as opposed to adventure, risk and self-sufficiency. Since artificial means are used primarily for safety rather than to make upward progress, sport climbing is considered a form of free climbing."

The whole point of sport climbing is to minimize the need to fiddle with gear so that the climber is free to perform climbing movement at his physical limit. You should try it sometime. It's pretty fun.

Jay


kennoyce


Sep 24, 2010, 1:25 PM
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socalclimber wrote:
You have to be kidding me?

Part of climbing is dealing with the gear, short of soloing.

I now understand why it's sport climbers that are routinely decking and dumping their partners on the ground.

I consider myself more of a trad climber than a sport climber, and I agree with you that dealing with the gear is an essential part of TRAD climbing. Sport climbing on the other hand is about the difficulty, the moves, and pushing yourself physically without having to deal with all of the gear.



Oh, and as I all ready mentioned, try removing the draws from an extremely overhung sport climb and you might have a better idea of why they use perma-draws.

edit to add, it looks like Jay beat me to it.


(This post was edited by kennoyce on Sep 24, 2010, 1:28 PM)


socalclimber


Sep 24, 2010, 1:31 PM
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jt512 wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
You have to be kidding me?

Part of climbing is dealing with the gear, short of soloing.

I'm shocked that someone who has been in the sport as long as you has such a misunderstanding of sport climbing, even if you don't do much of it yourself. Here is the definition of sport climbing from wikipedia:

"Sport climbing is a style of rock climbing that relies on permanent anchors fixed to the rock, especially bolts, for protection, in contrast with traditional climbing, in which the rock is typically devoid of fixed anchors, and climbers must place removable protection as they climb. Since the need to place protection is virtually eliminated, sport climbing places an emphasis on gymnastic ability, strength and endurance, as opposed to adventure, risk and self-sufficiency. Since artificial means are used primarily for safety rather than to make upward progress, sport climbing is considered a form of free climbing."

The whole point of sport climbing is to minimize the need to fiddle with gear so that the climber is free to perform climbing movement at his physical limit. You should try it sometime. It's pretty fun.

Jay

That's what soloing is for.


socalclimber


Sep 24, 2010, 1:34 PM
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Re: [kennoyce] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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kennoyce wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
You have to be kidding me?

Part of climbing is dealing with the gear, short of soloing.

I now understand why it's sport climbers that are routinely decking and dumping their partners on the ground.

Oh, and as I all ready mentioned, try removing the draws from an extremely overhung sport climb and you might have a better idea of why they use perma-draws.

edit to add, it looks like Jay beat me to it.

Obviously the route is over your head...

Maybe a pair of aiders is in order...


jt512


Sep 24, 2010, 1:36 PM
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socalclimber wrote:
kennoyce wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
You have to be kidding me?

Part of climbing is dealing with the gear, short of soloing.

I now understand why it's sport climbers that are routinely decking and dumping their partners on the ground.

Oh, and as I all ready mentioned, try removing the draws from an extremely overhung sport climb and you might have a better idea of why they use perma-draws.

edit to add, it looks like Jay beat me to it.

Obviously the route is over your head...

Maybe a pair of aiders is in order...

You need to get out of J Tree once in a while. ;)

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Sep 24, 2010, 1:38 PM)


socalclimber


Sep 24, 2010, 1:38 PM
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jt512 wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
kennoyce wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
You have to be kidding me?

Part of climbing is dealing with the gear, short of soloing.

I now understand why it's sport climbers that are routinely decking and dumping their partners on the ground.

Oh, and as I all ready mentioned, try removing the draws from an extremely overhung sport climb and you might have a better idea of why they use perma-draws.

edit to add, it looks like Jay beat me to it.

Obviously the route is over your head...

Maybe a pair of aiders is in order...

You need to get out of J Tree once and a while. ;)

Jay

I won't argue with you on that one! Although I did get up to Tahquitz and Holcomb Valley this summer.


jt512


Sep 24, 2010, 1:40 PM
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Re: [socalclimber] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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socalclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
kennoyce wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
You have to be kidding me?

Part of climbing is dealing with the gear, short of soloing.

I now understand why it's sport climbers that are routinely decking and dumping their partners on the ground.

Oh, and as I all ready mentioned, try removing the draws from an extremely overhung sport climb and you might have a better idea of why they use perma-draws.

edit to add, it looks like Jay beat me to it.

Obviously the route is over your head...

Maybe a pair of aiders is in order...

You need to get out of J Tree once and a while. ;)

Jay

I won't argue with you on that one! Although I did get up to Tahquitz and Holcomb Valley this summer.

If you're getting your ideas about sport climbing from Holcomb Valley, you're getting a really skewed view of the subject.

Jay


socalclimber


Sep 24, 2010, 1:45 PM
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Naw, just a fun place outta the summer heat to clip bolts and not die.


kennoyce


Sep 24, 2010, 1:49 PM
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jt512 wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
kennoyce wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
You have to be kidding me?

Part of climbing is dealing with the gear, short of soloing.

I now understand why it's sport climbers that are routinely decking and dumping their partners on the ground.

Oh, and as I all ready mentioned, try removing the draws from an extremely overhung sport climb and you might have a better idea of why they use perma-draws.

edit to add, it looks like Jay beat me to it.

Obviously the route is over your head...

Maybe a pair of aiders is in order...

You need to get out of J Tree once and a while. ;)

Jay

I won't argue with you on that one! Although I did get up to Tahquitz and Holcomb Valley this summer.

If you're getting your ideas about sport climbing from Holcomb Valley, you're getting a really skewed view of the subject.

Jay

Seriously, "overhung" routes at holcomb might be five feet in their thirty foot length (not that I don't enjoy holcomb).


socalclimber wrote:
Obviously the route is over your head...

Maybe a pair of aiders is in order...

It really has nothing to do with being over your head or not, but you are correct that a pair of aiders is about the only way to remove draws from very overhung routes.


dynosore


Sep 24, 2010, 1:58 PM
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jt512 wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
moose_droppings wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
csproul wrote:
iron106 wrote:
I don't think the groove was actually that bad. I think the only problem was the sharpness of the groove. Worn biners are usually stronger than new ones.
??
Worn biners have been shown to better concentrated the force along the spine and break at higher loads

So there not stronger.
??

Could we please not derail this thread with a semantic argument about the meaning of the word "stronger."

Jay

Good thing you never nitpick and derail threads, eh? Like all the time for instance. The ironing is thick today.....


socalclimber


Sep 24, 2010, 2:00 PM
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"Seriously, "overhung" routes at holcomb might be five feet in their thirty foot length (not that I don't enjoy holcomb). "

I never said anything about over hanging routes at Holcomb. I just said I went there this summer to get out of the heat. You just implied it.


kennoyce


Sep 24, 2010, 2:05 PM
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socalclimber wrote:
"Seriously, "overhung" routes at holcomb might be five feet in their thirty foot length (not that I don't enjoy holcomb). "

I never said anything about over hanging routes at Holcomb. I just said I went there this summer to get out of the heat. You just implied it.

I'm just trying to point out that the only "sport climbing" area you've been to recently is Holcomb where nothing is overhung. Until you try climbing something that is truly very overhung you will never understand the importance of perma-draws. I am implying that you have never climbed anything that is severely overhung which may be incorrect, but I doubt it.


majid_sabet


Sep 24, 2010, 2:10 PM
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this is nothing new however, sport climbers have a tendency to leave QD every where they go and overall,they have a bad reputation on inspecting their TR system.

Inspect your lifeline and equipment every time you climb.


kennoyce


Sep 24, 2010, 2:16 PM
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majid_sabet wrote:
this is nothing new however, sport climbers have a tendency to leave QD every where they go and overall,they have a bad reputation on inspecting their TR system.

Inspect your lifeline and equipment every time you climb.

This is true. What we should take away from this accident is that we need to inspect perma-draws before we trust our lives to them. Just take a half a second and look at the draw you are clipping before the rope is blocking your view of the possible sharp edges. If it's not sharp clip it and go, if it is sharp, place your own draw.


minibiter


Sep 24, 2010, 2:28 PM
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This one was pulled of a climb at Roadside earlier this year... Injury averted!



Edit! My bad, it was pulled off 40oz to Freedom at the Motherload. By the time I saw it we were at Roadside. See Mike's post here:

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...post=2397349#2397349


(This post was edited by minibiter on Sep 27, 2010, 3:17 PM)
Attachments: 28809_422198333972_686743972_5486694_2903248_n.jpg (27.7 KB)


socalclimber


Sep 24, 2010, 2:31 PM
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kennoyce wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
"Seriously, "overhung" routes at holcomb might be five feet in their thirty foot length (not that I don't enjoy holcomb). "

I never said anything about over hanging routes at Holcomb. I just said I went there this summer to get out of the heat. You just implied it.

I'm just trying to point out that the only "sport climbing" area you've been to recently is Holcomb where nothing is overhung. Until you try climbing something that is truly very overhung you will never understand the importance of perma-draws. I am implying that you have never climbed anything that is severely overhung which may be incorrect, but I doubt it.

Yup, this is true. Actually, from that photo I'm now convinced the perma-draw is a really bad idea. I've never seen caribiner wear that severe before.

I can only imagine what other time bombs like that one are out there. And if this is no big deal in the totally rad "sport climbing" world, you can have it.

That level of wear is just insane. How could nobody have noticed that?


majid_sabet


Sep 24, 2010, 2:36 PM
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if sport climbers are too lazy to inspect their life support system, i would suggest replacing the top biner with heavy duty steel biner or steel shackle or something like that so it could last longer.

Still , you need to inspect your gear every time and disengage the autopilot mentality while climbing. There are no such thing as "safe climbing environment" and all it takes is one doo doo to end up six feet under dirt.


jt512


Sep 24, 2010, 2:40 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
if sport climbers are too lazy to inspect their life support system, i would suggest replacing the top biner with heavy duty steel biner or steel shackle or something like that so it could last longer.

Try and keep up, Majid. It's not the top biners that are the problem. It's the lower ones, especially (probably) the first.

Jay


socalclimber


Sep 24, 2010, 2:43 PM
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You know, that might not be the worst idea in the world. If the draws are fixed, then using steel biners would last forever and not suffer this kind of wear.

Since they aren't going to carry them with them on the route, and they are going to clip and go, might just be a good idea.

I am speaking about the lower biner.

Since we are on the topic, how much wear do the top biners get from being on the bolt for years?


(This post was edited by socalclimber on Sep 24, 2010, 2:45 PM)


jt512


Sep 24, 2010, 2:48 PM
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socalclimber wrote:
You know, that might not be the worst idea in the world. If the draws are fixed, then using steel biners would last forever and not suffer this kind of wear.

Since they aren't going to carry them with them on the route, and they are going to clip and go, might just be a good idea.

I am speaking about the lower biner.

Since we are on the topic, how much wear do the top biners get from being on the bolt for years?

They get a lot, and have to be replaced regularly.

Jay


socalclimber


Sep 24, 2010, 2:52 PM
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jt512 wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
You know, that might not be the worst idea in the world. If the draws are fixed, then using steel biners would last forever and not suffer this kind of wear.

Since they aren't going to carry them with them on the route, and they are going to clip and go, might just be a good idea.

I am speaking about the lower biner.

Since we are on the topic, how much wear do the top biners get from being on the bolt for years?

They get a lot, and have to be replaced regularly.

Jay

Then maybe steel biners are the way to go. I'm still astonished by a) the level of wear, and b) nobody seemed to notice it before.

Obviously people have been lowering off that thing for years. I have biners closing in on 20 years old that are worn, but no even remotely close to that.

Majid has made some very solid points here. It is unbelievable to me that nobody noticed this long ago, or did anything about it.


(This post was edited by socalclimber on Sep 24, 2010, 2:53 PM)


jt512


Sep 24, 2010, 2:55 PM
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socalclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
You know, that might not be the worst idea in the world. If the draws are fixed, then using steel biners would last forever and not suffer this kind of wear.

Since they aren't going to carry them with them on the route, and they are going to clip and go, might just be a good idea.

I am speaking about the lower biner.

Since we are on the topic, how much wear do the top biners get from being on the bolt for years?

They get a lot, and have to be replaced regularly.

Jay

Then maybe steel biners are the way to go. I'm still astonished by a) the level of wear, and b) nobody seemed to notice it before.

Obviously people have been lowering off that thing for years. I have biners closing in on 20 years old that are worn, but no even remotely close to that.

I've never seen one as far gone as that one above either. At non-gumby crags (which rules out most of SoCal) the top biners aren't fixed to the chains, and when they get too worn, someone will just switch them out.

Jay


socalclimber


Sep 24, 2010, 3:00 PM
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jt512 wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
You know, that might not be the worst idea in the world. If the draws are fixed, then using steel biners would last forever and not suffer this kind of wear.

Since they aren't going to carry them with them on the route, and they are going to clip and go, might just be a good idea.

I am speaking about the lower biner.

Since we are on the topic, how much wear do the top biners get from being on the bolt for years?

They get a lot, and have to be replaced regularly.

Jay

Then maybe steel biners are the way to go. I'm still astonished by a) the level of wear, and b) nobody seemed to notice it before.

Obviously people have been lowering off that thing for years. I have biners closing in on 20 years old that are worn, but no even remotely close to that.

I've never seen one as far gone as that one above either. At non-gumby crags (which rules out most of SoCal) the top biners aren't fixed to the chains, and when they get too worn, someone will just switch them out.

Jay

Well that seems like a reasonable idea.


jt512


Sep 24, 2010, 3:03 PM
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socalclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
You know, that might not be the worst idea in the world. If the draws are fixed, then using steel biners would last forever and not suffer this kind of wear.

Since they aren't going to carry them with them on the route, and they are going to clip and go, might just be a good idea.

I am speaking about the lower biner.

Since we are on the topic, how much wear do the top biners get from being on the bolt for years?

They get a lot, and have to be replaced regularly.

Jay

Then maybe steel biners are the way to go. I'm still astonished by a) the level of wear, and b) nobody seemed to notice it before.

Obviously people have been lowering off that thing for years. I have biners closing in on 20 years old that are worn, but no even remotely close to that.

I've never seen one as far gone as that one above either. At non-gumby crags (which rules out most of SoCal) the top biners aren't fixed to the chains, and when they get too worn, someone will just switch them out.

Jay

Well that seems like a reasonable idea.

Unfortunately, it only works at crags where the local climbing population is sophisticated enough to understand that the biners aren't "booty," again ruling out most of SoCal.

Jay


moose_droppings


Sep 24, 2010, 3:08 PM
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dynosore wrote:
jt512 wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
moose_droppings wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
csproul wrote:
iron106 wrote:
I don't think the groove was actually that bad. I think the only problem was the sharpness of the groove. Worn biners are usually stronger than new ones.
??
Worn biners have been shown to better concentrated the force along the spine and break at higher loads

So there not stronger.
??

Could we please not derail this thread with a semantic argument about the meaning of the word "stronger."

Jay

Good thing you never nitpick and derail threads, eh? Like all the time for instance. The ironing is thick today.....

I'd have to agree with the irony here.

Seems like the discussion about prehung draws and grass roots of sport climbing is more on topic than the strength of a biner, much like the one that broke in the OP.


redlude97


Sep 24, 2010, 3:23 PM
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moose_droppings wrote:
dynosore wrote:
jt512 wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
moose_droppings wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
csproul wrote:
iron106 wrote:
I don't think the groove was actually that bad. I think the only problem was the sharpness of the groove. Worn biners are usually stronger than new ones.
??
Worn biners have been shown to better concentrated the force along the spine and break at higher loads

So there not stronger.
??

Could we please not derail this thread with a semantic argument about the meaning of the word "stronger."

Jay

Good thing you never nitpick and derail threads, eh? Like all the time for instance. The ironing is thick today.....

I'd have to agree with the irony here.

Seems like the discussion about prehung draws and grass roots of sport climbing is more on topic than the strength of a biner, much like the one that broke in the OP.
Which biner broke?


jt512


Sep 24, 2010, 3:28 PM
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moose_droppings wrote:
dynosore wrote:
jt512 wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
moose_droppings wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
csproul wrote:
iron106 wrote:
I don't think the groove was actually that bad. I think the only problem was the sharpness of the groove. Worn biners are usually stronger than new ones.
??
Worn biners have been shown to better concentrated the force along the spine and break at higher loads

So there not stronger.
??

Could we please not derail this thread with a semantic argument about the meaning of the word "stronger."

Jay

Good thing you never nitpick and derail threads, eh? Like all the time for instance. The ironing is thick today.....

I'd have to agree with the irony here.

I'd ask dynosore to provide some examples of the nit picking he's accusing me of, except that I'm not willing to unkillfile him to see his inability to respond.

Jay


newrivermike


Sep 24, 2010, 3:44 PM
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In reply to:
This one was pulled of a climb at Roadside earlier this year... Injury averted!


Just to clarify: I took this biner down from the anchor of 40 oz. of Justice at the Motherload. Worst I've ever seen. I could flex it between two fingers. One anchor biner was bad, one was good. I guess that's why no one had taken it yet. I keep this one clipped to the outside of my pack to show people. Hopefully raise some awareness of this issue.

And for the record... I think the whole thing about sport climbers being too lazy to clean gear is hilarious. Isn't that ironic that the climbers that are out there training like mad and climbing ridiculously steep 5.14s and 5.15s are considered lazy. You know, guys like Sharma that are too lazy to clean the draws off Jumbo Love. Anyone that questions the importance of fixed draws has certainly never even seen the Motherload at the Red. Cleaning one of those routes would be an all day affair and would actually be quite dangerous.

Fixed draws, if maintained properly, are essential for mega steep pitches and they actually promote safety. We just need to get some steel ones which is happening to remedy this situation. Most of the Undertow wall is already equipped with steel biners. If you read the Redriverclimbing.com post you'll note that a bunch of steel biners were donated to the crag where the cut rope incident occured.

It takes time and money to make the crags a safer place. Until then, be careful and be aware of what you're climbing on.


moose_droppings


Sep 24, 2010, 5:03 PM
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redlude97 wrote:
Which biner broke?

I misspoke, there was no broken biner


socalclimber


Sep 24, 2010, 5:40 PM
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moose_droppings wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
Which biner broke?

I misspoke, there was no broken biner

Nope, but the rope sure was.

I'm sorry, but this whole thing is just stupid. I'm still at a loss to understand how this happened. There is no need for "analysis" of the rope. The people involved yes, but the gear, no!


jt512


Sep 24, 2010, 6:29 PM
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socalclimber wrote:
moose_droppings wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
Which biner broke?

I misspoke, there was no broken biner

Nope, but the rope sure was.

I'm sorry, but this whole thing is just stupid. I'm still at a loss to understand how this happened. There is no need for "analysis" of the rope. The people involved yes, but the gear, no!

For once, Robert, I have to disagree with you. There is little, if anything unusual about the people in this incident, or what they were doing. In all likelihood, this could have happened to any sport climber. In contrast, the condition of the rope and the gear, and the mechanics of the accident are what we need to learn more about.

Between the link to the BD testing provided by jmeizis and newrivermike's incisive observations, a highly plausible explanation for this accident is beginning to emerge. According to newrivermike, sharp edges on the rope-end carabiner of a fixed draw can develop if the draw is often under tension with the rope running relatively unbent though the carabiner. This is likely to happen at the first bolt, because belayers often stand a few feet away from the wall while lowering their partner. In addition, according to BD, rope damage over a sharp edge is more likely to occur when the fall-factor is high or the catch static. Now, the first bolt just happens to be where the highest fall factor falls are likely to occur as well as where the belayer is least likely to give a dynamic belay. Add in the fact that the carabiner used "T-bar" construction, which amplifies the sharpness of the edge, and that the groove appeared to be worn to the worst possible depth, the apex of the "T," and it starts to look like this accident took place under exactly the sort of perfect-storm conditions required.

Jay


socalclimber


Sep 24, 2010, 6:40 PM
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jt512 wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
moose_droppings wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
Which biner broke?

I misspoke, there was no broken biner

Nope, but the rope sure was.

I'm sorry, but this whole thing is just stupid. I'm still at a loss to understand how this happened. There is no need for "analysis" of the rope. The people involved yes, but the gear, no!

For once, Robert, I have to disagree with you. There is little, if anything unusual about the people in this incident, or what they were doing. In all likelihood, this could have happened to any sport climber. In contrast, the condition of the rope and the gear, and the mechanics of the accident are what we need to learn more about.

Between the link to the BD testing provided by jmeizis and newrivermike's incisive observations, a highly plausible explanation for this accident is beginning to emerge. According to newrivermike, sharp edges on the rope-end carabiner of a fixed draw can develop if the draw is often under tension with the rope running relatively unbent though the carabiner. This is likely to happen at the first bolt, because belayers often stand a few feet away from the wall while lowering their partner. In addition, according to BD, rope damage over a sharp edge is more likely to occur when the fall-factor is high or the catch static. Now, the first bolt just happens to be where the highest fall factor falls are likely to occur as well as where the belayer is least likely to give a dynamic belay. Add in the fact that the carabiner used "T-bar" construction, which amplifies the sharpness of the edge, and that the groove appeared to be worn to the worst possible depth, the apex of the "T," and it starts to look like this accident took place under exactly the sort of perfect-storm conditions required.

Jay

Thanks, let me read this and digest the info you provided.


socalclimber


Sep 25, 2010, 4:37 AM
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Hmmm.

Well I read that earlier in the thread. I still have a number of issues with this. First off, Mike clearly stated that he will carry extra draws with him due to the very problem that caused this accident. He even goes on to say that these time bombs are everywhere and knew this was gonna happen to someone eventually.

This tells me Mike has a functioning brain. For god sakes, I've cleaned and replaced old copper heads that were in better condition than either of those two biners. What astounds me is that nobody has bothered to fix the problem and continued to climb on them anyway.

If I ever came upon a "fixed" biner in that condition, especially straight off the deck, I promise you, I wouldn't just clip it. I'd be off that thing in a heart beat or placing my own piece if I could.

Those two pictures are with out question the worst examples of wear I have seen in a caribiner in 20 years of climbing.

I have absolutely no problems with the analysis and conclusions of why and how the wear occurs. The high fall factor due to the first bolt on the route, or that the belayer is standing a bit back from the route. This is all well and good. Majid is 100% correct. Rule #1 in climbing is NEVER BLINDLY TRUST FIXED GEAR. INSPECT IT. I don't care what it is, fixed pin, fixed draw, stuck cam, whatever.

How anybody could not have noticed that biner is beyond me. If this is the accepted norm and practices at popular sport climbing areas, be rest assured I won't be going near them any time soon.

I can only imagine what some of the bolt hangers must look like. I would suggest some of the locals get on the phone to the ASCA and get new hangers and gear and start replacing these things. At the very least, people should be noting these time bombs on the web sites and gear stores near by. Nomads has a note book for bad bolts. Locals take a gander at it and replace the offending gear. If we can do it with 7000+ routes in the park, then it should be doable in other areas.

The truth is, complacency is what lead to this accident.


(This post was edited by socalclimber on Sep 25, 2010, 4:45 AM)


csproul


Sep 25, 2010, 6:17 AM
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Not that I disagree with you, but I bet there are more bolts and fixed gear in Muir Valley (not to mention the rest of RRG) than in all of JT.


socalclimber


Sep 25, 2010, 6:51 AM
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csproul wrote:
Not that I disagree with you, but I bet there are more bolts and fixed gear in Muir Valley (not to mention the rest of RRG) than in all of JT.

I'll bet you're right. Especially since JT is not a sport climbing area as a general rule. Regardless, anything with that level of wear needs to be replaced.


(This post was edited by socalclimber on Sep 25, 2010, 6:54 AM)


socalclimber


Sep 25, 2010, 7:58 AM
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I gotta go to work, but:

Time for devils advocate. What if the first draw on this route, and others are being stick clipped? In other words, people are not leading up to them, clipping and moving on.


jt512


Sep 25, 2010, 9:45 AM
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socalclimber wrote:
Hmmm.

Well I read that earlier in the thread. I still have a number of issues with this. First off, Mike clearly stated that he will carry extra draws with him due to the very problem that caused this accident. He even goes on to say that these time bombs are everywhere and knew this was gonna happen to someone eventually.

Well, in over 20 years of climbing, this is the very first time I have heard this mechanism discussed. And I don't know a single climber who knew that there are sharp fixed draws all over the place (if in fact there are).

In reply to:
This tells me Mike has a functioning brain. For god sakes, I've cleaned and replaced old copper heads that were in better condition than either of those two biners. What astounds me is that nobody has bothered to fix the problem and continued to climb on them anyway.

That really deeply grooved one was certainly the worst I've seen, by far. But the one that caused the accident wasn't. The depth of that groove is where biners on fixed draws usually get replaced, in my experience. So a groove that deep isn't that unusual or dangerous per se. What is unusual (I hope) and dangerous is that the groove was sharp. I'd have probably clipped that draw myself. I've certainly clipped others that were grooved that deeply with absolutely no concern that either the biner would fail or that it could cut my rope. Remember, most of these grooves are smooth.

In reply to:
Rule #1 in climbing is NEVER BLINDLY TRUST FIXED GEAR. INSPECT IT. I don't care what it is, fixed pin, fixed draw, stuck cam, whatever.

But the rule is largely unworkable, especially in sport climbing. You can't "inspect" a bolt in the middle of a hard sport climb. And even if you could, you probably couldn't tell anything about it. Likewise, you can't determine the condition of a fixed nylon sling by looking at it. Likewise, I doubt that you could visually distinguish a routine groove on a carabiner from one that could potentially cut your rope. You pretty much have to make a decision to either trust the gear and do the climb, or not trust it, and take up trad climbing. This is not to say that you should be completely unaware of the condition of the gear. Far from it, but you can't avoid a certain element of trust in the hardware in sport climbing.

Jay


jt512


Sep 25, 2010, 9:56 AM
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socalclimber wrote:
I gotta go to work, but:

Time for devils advocate. What if the first draw on this route, and others are being stick clipped? In other words, people are not leading up to them, clipping and moving on.

Then, as far as I can see, the situation would be exactly the same. On the other hand, if every sport route with fixed draws was equipped a dedicated cleaning bolt, and everybody used it, then the problem of the first actual protection bolt (ie, the second bolt) becoming sharp would be solved. The wear due to lowering would occur on the cleaning bolt's draw, never gets fallen on. The problem is getting everybody to clip the lowering bolt.

(A lowering bolt is one that is intended to be clipped from the ground, and unclipped from the ground after the leader has cleaned the other draws while lowering off. It's too low to be part of the protection system. Its only use use is to facilitate cleaning.)

Jay


dynosore


Sep 25, 2010, 10:06 AM
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jt512 wrote:
moose_droppings wrote:
dynosore wrote:
jt512 wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
moose_droppings wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
csproul wrote:
iron106 wrote:
I don't think the groove was actually that bad. I think the only problem was the sharpness of the groove. Worn biners are usually stronger than new ones.
??
Worn biners have been shown to better concentrated the force along the spine and break at higher loads

So there not stronger.
??

Could we please not derail this thread with a semantic argument about the meaning of the word "stronger."

Jay

Good thing you never nitpick and derail threads, eh? Like all the time for instance. The ironing is thick today.....

I'd have to agree with the irony here.

I'd ask dynosore to provide some examples of the nit picking he's accusing me of, except that I'm not willing to unkillfile him to see his inability to respond.

Jay


No prob jay. The examples are there all the time, as you cruise this forum 24/7, looking for any reason to belittle someone or carve their slightest possible error into a thousand pieces. You may impress a few young and naive noob types but most of us see clearly what you are.
Hope you find some inner peace someday....Ciao.


MS1


Sep 25, 2010, 2:39 PM
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In reply to:
On the other hand, if every sport route with fixed draws was equipped a dedicated cleaning bolt, and everybody used it, then the problem of the first actual protection bolt (ie, the second bolt) becoming sharp would be solved. The wear due to lowering would occur on the cleaning bolt's draw, never gets fallen on. The problem is getting everybody to clip the lowering bolt.

(A lowering bolt is one that is intended to be clipped from the ground, and unclipped from the ground after the leader has cleaned the other draws while lowering off. It's too low to be part of the protection system. Its only use use is to facilitate cleaning.)

That's an interesting idea. Does this system interfere with giving a good dynamic belay? I can envision scenarios where a low draw in the system would cause problems when catching a fall.


bill413


Sep 25, 2010, 3:22 PM
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jt512 wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
I gotta go to work, but:

Time for devils advocate. What if the first draw on this route, and others are being stick clipped? In other words, people are not leading up to them, clipping and moving on.

Then, as far as I can see, the situation would be exactly the same. On the other hand, if every sport route with fixed draws was equipped a dedicated cleaning bolt, and everybody used it, then the problem of the first actual protection bolt (ie, the second bolt) becoming sharp would be solved. The wear due to lowering would occur on the cleaning bolt's draw, never gets fallen on. The problem is getting everybody to clip the lowering bolt.

(A lowering bolt is one that is intended to be clipped from the ground, and unclipped from the ground after the leader has cleaned the other draws while lowering off. It's too low to be part of the protection system. Its only use use is to facilitate cleaning.)

Jay

Jay, not having encountered what I recognize as a lowering bolt, I'm envisioning this as primarily something to keep you in close to overhanging rock during the lower, but not something useful on more vertical terrain?


jt512


Sep 25, 2010, 5:13 PM
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MS1 wrote:
In reply to:
On the other hand, if every sport route with fixed draws was equipped a dedicated cleaning bolt, and everybody used it, then the problem of the first actual protection bolt (ie, the second bolt) becoming sharp would be solved. The wear due to lowering would occur on the cleaning bolt's draw, never gets fallen on. The problem is getting everybody to clip the lowering bolt.

(A lowering bolt is one that is intended to be clipped from the ground, and unclipped from the ground after the leader has cleaned the other draws while lowering off. It's too low to be part of the protection system. Its only use use is to facilitate cleaning.)

That's an interesting idea. Does this system interfere with giving a good dynamic belay? I can envision scenarios where a low draw in the system would cause problems when catching a fall.

Not that I've ever encountered. I suppose that if the belayer were much lighter than the climber, the belayer would have to be all the more wary about getting pulled up into the first bolt.

Jay


jt512


Sep 25, 2010, 5:19 PM
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bill413 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
I gotta go to work, but:

Time for devils advocate. What if the first draw on this route, and others are being stick clipped? In other words, people are not leading up to them, clipping and moving on.

Then, as far as I can see, the situation would be exactly the same. On the other hand, if every sport route with fixed draws was equipped a dedicated cleaning bolt, and everybody used it, then the problem of the first actual protection bolt (ie, the second bolt) becoming sharp would be solved. The wear due to lowering would occur on the cleaning bolt's draw, never gets fallen on. The problem is getting everybody to clip the lowering bolt.

(A lowering bolt is one that is intended to be clipped from the ground, and unclipped from the ground after the leader has cleaned the other draws while lowering off. It's too low to be part of the protection system. Its only use use is to facilitate cleaning.)

Jay

Jay, not having encountered what I recognize as a lowering bolt, I'm envisioning this as primarily something to keep you in close to overhanging rock during the lower, but not something useful on more vertical terrain?

Yes, they're most useful on moderately overhanging routes.

Jay


socalclimber


Sep 25, 2010, 6:51 PM
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I can understand not being able to check every bolt/hanger on steep or difficult clips, but either one of those biners are bad news. If you're happy clipping the biner that caused the accident, on a first bolt (high fall factor), then be my guest.

I wouldn't. That thing has disaster written all over it. If this is the case, then expect the accidents to continue. There's nothing mysterious worthy of "in depth analysis" here.

So, out of curiosity, why wouldn't you sport climbing folks use steel biners on "fixed" routes (perma-draws)? It seems to me that would really alleviate the problem. Especially with a high fall factor down low.


jt512


Sep 25, 2010, 7:09 PM
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socalclimber wrote:
That thing has disaster written all over it.

Except that it doesn't. To the naked eye it looks like an ordinary ready-for-replacement, but still safe, carabiner. I've never heard of any carabiner breaking because of wear. Have you? What made that carabiner both unusual and dangerous is that it had sharp edges on it. I don't think one sport climber in a thousand would have been able to differentiate it on sight from just another worn biner.

Jay


socalclimber


Sep 25, 2010, 7:58 PM
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I'm not talking about breaking the biner. I talking about sharp edges cutting the rope which appears to be the case here. I'm still having a problem that anybody cannot tell that the biner in question had the potential for causing a big problem.

You can dress this up with all the excuses you want. If this is the state of the union with regards to sport climbing, then there is a real problem.

There is no excuse based on how rad, bitch'n and cool sport climbing is. That biner has bad shit written all over it.

What part do you not understand here? First bolt. High fall factor. Badly worn biner with sharp edges.

Rope cut.

Jeeze, what a surpise. Defending this is does not lend credence to your case, nor does my lack of climbing steep overhanging routes.

Simple, I see gear like that, I'm not trusting my life to it.

If you want, then be my guest.

Maybe you need to take a break from sport climbing and get back to trad where we actually consider things like this.

I'm gonna end my part in this. I've made my statements. I have a lot of respect for you Jay. But this is one area I cannot even begin to agree with you on. There is no excuse under these circumstances for trusting your life to something like that.

Robert


(This post was edited by socalclimber on Sep 25, 2010, 8:19 PM)


jt512


Sep 25, 2010, 9:23 PM
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socalclimber wrote:
I'm not talking about breaking the biner. I talking about sharp edges cutting the rope which appears to be the case here. I'm still having a problem that anybody cannot tell that the biner in question had the potential for causing a big problem.

Question: Does this biner have a sharp edge?



In reply to:
You can dress this up with all the excuses you want. If this is the state of the union with regards to sport climbing, then there is a real problem.

Really? How many accidents have there ever been in sport climbing due to poor judgment about the gear? Compare that number to the number of climbers who have decked at J Tree alone due to poor judgment about the gear during just the last few years.

In reply to:
There is no excuse based on how rad, bitch'n and cool sport climbing is.

Huh? What are you smoking?

In reply to:
That biner has bad shit written all over it.

And the one pictured above? Does it?

In reply to:
What part do you not understand here? First bolt. High fall factor. Badly worn biner with sharp edges.

What part do you not understand? I'll tell you: the part where the typical sport climber has seen thousands of biners that look just like that and are perfectly safe. Until now, (almost) no one (including me) had any reason to believe that a worn biner could cut a rope. And it's not like we haven't thought about it. I've examined scores of worn biners and have never found any of them to have a sharp edge that could cut a rope.

In reply to:
Rope cut.

20/20 hindsight.

In reply to:
Simple, I see gear like that, I'm not trusting my life to it.

Fair enough. But for every piece of gear like that you refuse to use you'll be refusing to use probably thousands that are perfectly safe. You just don't seem to get that until now well-considered opinion was that worn biners (which are routine in sport climbing) would not cut a rope or break. This is the only incident in the decades-old history of sport climbing that I am aware of where a biner has completely severed a rope. That's a pretty good track record, and I would bet that you take far greater risks on a routine basis trad climbing than you would by trusting every worn biner you ever came across on a sport climb.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Sep 25, 2010, 9:27 PM)


socalclimber


Sep 25, 2010, 9:52 PM
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First bolt, clearly worn biner with sharp edge, rope cut.

Nuff said.


jt512


Sep 25, 2010, 10:09 PM
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socalclimber wrote:
First bolt, clearly worn biner with sharp edge, rope cut.

You're still not getting it. All the climber would have known is that the biner was worn. Sport climbers encounter worn biners every day. Every draw I own has a worn rope-end biner. This includes draws that are less than a year old. UNTIL THIS INCIDENT THERE HAS BEEN NO REASON TO BELIEVE THAT A WORN BINER POSED A RISK OF CUTTING THE ROPE.

Based on the information that has come to light in this thread, I have probably climbed past hundreds of dangerous biners, and probably even fallen on some, without reason to believe that there was ever any danger in doing so. This isn't because I've been blissfully unaware of such dangers. On the contrary, it's because I, like many other sport climbers, have thought deeply about the issue and have concluded (perhaps wrongly) that there was no risk.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Sep 26, 2010, 4:56 AM)


socalclimber


Sep 26, 2010, 5:02 AM
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Believe me, I get it. That's what is so scary about this.


ClimbClimb


Sep 26, 2010, 9:38 PM
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socalclimber wrote:
Believe me, I get it. That's what is so scary about this.

I think everyone undestood that a worn biner may break at a lower force.

I think for many people it is new infromation that a worn biner may cut a rope. That may be rare, but significantly increases the risk of a worn biner (since in many situations, biner is not the single point of failure anyway, while the rope always is).

New data --> new decisionmaking input for future climbing.

What's the big controversy for you here, besides the usual sport-vs-trad "West Side Story"-style nonsense?


Partner j_ung


Sep 27, 2010, 6:45 AM
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iron106 wrote:
I don't think the groove was actually that bad. I think the only problem was the sharpness of the groove. Worn biners are usually stronger than new ones.

Huh?


iron106


Sep 27, 2010, 6:59 AM
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Someone else corrected me well enough. That it loads the major axis more, rather than "stronger". I was just pointing out it was the sharp edge rather that the worn biner. Granted the two are not interchangeable.

I have seen a few belay devices get pretty sharp as well, and that is what too look for in worn gear, the sharp edges.


Partner j_ung


Sep 27, 2010, 7:29 AM
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Ah, I see. Thx for clarifying.


retr2327


Sep 27, 2010, 8:01 AM
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One nice thing about using steel biners: even SoCal climbers probably wouldn't want to run off with them.


lena_chita
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Sep 27, 2010, 9:00 AM
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ClimbClimb wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
Believe me, I get it. That's what is so scary about this.

I think everyone undestood that a worn biner may break at a lower force.

I think for many people it is new infromation that a worn biner may cut a rope. That may be rare, but significantly increases the risk of a worn biner (since in many situations, biner is not the single point of failure anyway, while the rope always is).

New data --> new decisionmaking input for future climbing.

What's the big controversy for you here, besides the usual sport-vs-trad "West Side Story"-style nonsense?

+1

I think most climbers understood that a worn 'biner could DAMAGE the rope -- e.g. cause a core shot. I have heard of such incidences, of course.

And in fact this has happened to one of my ropes. Someone else was climbing on it, took a fall on a fixed 'biner, and the rope got an obvious damage in the spot that was in contact with the 'biner, the core was visibly damaged and the rope was retired, of course.
(The 'biner in question was not visibly grooved or worn, by the way, though on very close inspection it looked like someone had used it as a bolt-end 'biner at some point-- still, we are not talking burrs, we are talking shallow scratches that did not feel at all sharp when running a finger over them.)

A core-damaged rope is bad news, of course, and shouldn't be climbed on, but in the above-mentioned scenario the climber was safely lowered to the ground on that rope.

I was willing to assume that under other circumstances (burred biner, for example) the rope could be damaged even more severely -- the sheath could be completely stripped, and several of the core filaments could be completely severed, for example. I've seen rope damage like that.



But no one I personally know, and myself included, has given much thought to the possibility of the rope severing completely by a carabiner. Severed by sharp rock--yes. But the 'biner, even a grooved one, still appears quite smooth.

So while the grooved 'biner was a reason for concern, the main issue, until this incident, was (at least in my head) the decreased strength of the 'biner. NOT the possibility of the rope completely cutting by the 'biner under a normal fall scenario. And yes, I have clipped a few worn 'biners myself, and climbed above them.

Now that we are aware of this, climbers would be, hopefully, more proactive in replacing the worn biners at an earlier stage of wear.

But it is a decision everyone makes: O.K., I'm halfway up the route, and there is a worn 'biner... or a rattly sling. How badly worn? Trust it, or not? We do not have a manual and calipers that would allow us to measure that wear and make an informed decision based on something solid. It is a gut feeling and experience. Sometimes we do trust it, and sometimes we decide that the damage is above the mental threshold and we should go in direct and replace it, instead of continuing the climb.


A lot of worn 'biners were taken off the overhanging routes in Muir Valley this past Saturday. I hope someone posts the pictures of them. Quite a few were very scary, indeed.


captainstatic


Sep 27, 2010, 11:20 AM
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The Red River Gorge climbing community does its best to maintain and replace legitimate fixed anchors. That costs money folks. The work at Muir Valley was made possible, in part, by a very generous donation of ClimbTech PermaDraw sets from Hoosier Heights Gym in Bloomington Indiana. Some pictures of other worn gear that has been maintained / replaced @ RRG can be seen at - http://teamsuckclimbing.com/photos.php. The Team Suck site also maintains a page to report bad bolts - http://teamsuckclimbing.com/bolts.php - and to make donations to their bolt rplacement fund - http://teamsuckclimbing.com/donate.php.


Partner j_ung


Sep 27, 2010, 4:54 PM
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captainstatic wrote:
The Red River Gorge climbing community does its best to maintain and replace legitimate fixed anchors. That costs money folks. The work at Muir Valley was made possible, in part, by a very generous donation of ClimbTech PermaDraw sets from Hoosier Heights Gym in Bloomington Indiana. Some pictures of other worn gear that has been maintained / replaced @ RRG can be seen at - http://teamsuckclimbing.com/photos.php. The Team Suck site also maintains a page to report bad bolts - http://teamsuckclimbing.com/bolts.php - and to make donations to their bolt rplacement fund - http://teamsuckclimbing.com/donate.php.

You cats do an awesome job on wat is likely to be a never-ending task. Hope to see of you at the AF summit at the New this weekend!


dingus


Sep 27, 2010, 5:10 PM
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jt512 wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
I've never climbed in this area, and I don't sport climb all that much, but I have to ask?

WHY THE FUCK ARE SPORT ROUTES FIXED WITH DRAWS?

Rap rings I can understand. But I just get this.

Would someone explain this to me?

It's so you don't have to put them up or take them down. Also, you can bail off the route safely and without sacrificing any gear.

Jay

There is the Bail-Slow option and now the new Red River Rapid Bail.

Never stand in the way of a sport climber's rationalization socalclimber. Its like standing in front of a herd of cows saying, 'no more mooing, ladies!'

DMT


bill413


Sep 27, 2010, 6:51 PM
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dingus wrote:
jt512 wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
I've never climbed in this area, and I don't sport climb all that much, but I have to ask?

WHY THE FUCK ARE SPORT ROUTES FIXED WITH DRAWS?

Rap rings I can understand. But I just get this.

Would someone explain this to me?

It's so you don't have to put them up or take them down. Also, you can bail off the route safely and without sacrificing any gear.

Jay

There is the Bail-Slow option and now the new Red River Rapid Bail.

Never stand in the way of a sport climber's rationalization socalclimber. Its like standing in front of a herd of cows saying, 'no more mooing, ladies!'

DMT

I'm curious - what are these? I googled "Bail Slow," and found this, but I'm not sure it's what I'd use (well, try to use...if I did I'd probably look like this).


Partner rrrADAM


Sep 28, 2010, 4:34 AM
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iron106 wrote:
Worn biners are usually stronger than new ones.
Huh?????

What leads you to believe this? Seriously, what? Do you have any data, or anything to support this?

In all my years (22, the last 16 at nukes) of performing inspections of materials, and doing failure analysis, I have never, ever heard this... Worn = Less material = Less strength.


bill413


Sep 28, 2010, 6:23 AM
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rrrADAM wrote:
iron106 wrote:
Worn biners are usually stronger than new ones.
Huh?????

What leads you to believe this? Seriously, what? Do you have any data, or anything to support this?

In all my years (22, the last 16 at nukes) of performing inspections of materials, and doing failure analysis, I have never, ever heard this... Worn = Less material = Less strength.

At least one basis for the statement that worn biners are stronger is here, based on unofficial testing. However, here is unofficial testing that is specific to this type of accident.


oetkb


Sep 28, 2010, 7:53 AM
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bill413 wrote:
At least one basis for the statement that worn biners are stronger is here, based on unofficial testing.

The linked BD article applies only to coldshuts. The failure mode for an ungrooved cold shut is such that as the tension in the rope increases, the rope slides toward the unanchored end of the shut, applying additional leverage, which causes the shut to bend and open, allowing the rope to slide yet farther toward the end, causing the shut to open farther, etc.

The groove in a worn shut traps the rope and doesn't allow the rope to slide, and hence, doesn't allow the additional leverage and bending.

The failure mode of a closed carabiner is different and a groove most likely serves only to lessen the ultimate breaking strength of the carabiner.


bill413


Sep 28, 2010, 8:10 AM
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oetkb wrote:
bill413 wrote:
At least one basis for the statement that worn biners are stronger is here, based on unofficial testing.

The linked BD article applies only to coldshuts. The failure mode for an ungrooved cold shut is such that as the tension in the rope increases, the rope slides toward the unanchored end of the shut, applying additional leverage, which causes the shut to bend and open, allowing the rope to slide yet farther toward the end, causing the shut to open farther, etc.

The groove in a worn shut traps the rope and doesn't allow the rope to slide, and hence, doesn't allow the additional leverage and bending.

The failure mode of a closed carabiner is different and a groove most likely serves only to lessen the ultimate breaking strength of the carabiner.

True. However, I suspect that some of us extrapolated from the results to carabiners, especially since they, too, are frequently used at anchors.


oetkb


Sep 28, 2010, 8:14 AM
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bill413 wrote:
True. However, I suspect that some of us extrapolated from the results to carabiners, especially since they, too, are frequently used at anchors.

Indeed. Lest I was unclear, my point was that such extrapolation is probably unjustified.


jt512


Sep 28, 2010, 9:21 AM
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oetkb wrote:
The failure mode of a closed carabiner is different and a groove most likely serves only to lessen the ultimate breaking strength of the carabiner.

I don't think that it is a forgone conclusion that a moderately grooved carabiner is weaker than an an ungrooved one. Limited information from BD suggests that the point where the groove develops, the bottom of the carabiner's basket, is not where carabiners typically break in any common failure mode. So moderate weakening there may have no effect on the biner's ultimate strength. Of course, BD presents limited data on a single model of carabiner, so we should be careful about drawing hasty conclusions from it or generalizing it to other models of carabiner.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Sep 28, 2010, 9:41 AM)


dingus


Sep 28, 2010, 9:56 AM
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jt512 wrote:
Of course, BD presents limited data on a single model of carabiner, so we should be careful about drawing hasty conclusions from it or generalizing it to other models of carabiner.

Jay

Ah of course so we should continue to saw through our fixed biners (because people will steal our convenience draws the bastards!), everything is A OK!

DMT


boymeetsrock


Sep 28, 2010, 10:30 AM
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dingus wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Of course, BD presents limited data on a single model of carabiner, so we should be careful about drawing hasty conclusions from it or generalizing it to other models of carabiner.

Jay

Ah of course so we should continue to saw through our fixed biners (because people will steal our convenience draws the bastards!), everything is A OK!

DMT

[whisper] ppsst. He's not listening to you... Or me. [/whisper]


dingus


Sep 28, 2010, 10:35 AM
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I know. Pretty funny isn't he? The Mr Expert-I-Can't-Hear-YOU-Lalalalalalalala!

That boy will justify any bad habit, so long as his socal sport buddies are doing it.

DMT


boymeetsrock


Sep 28, 2010, 10:42 AM
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What's even more funny is that for a while you were one of his biggest (read 'few') supporters here for his watchdog tendencies...

"There's an old saying in [California]—I know it's in Texas, probably in [California]—that says, fool me once, shame on—shame on you. Fool me—you can't get fooled again."


Aw well, we can't all be perfect. He keeps defending stuff like this we may not have to be concerned with him much longer. But what to I know. I'm not a 5.12 sport climber.


dingus


Sep 28, 2010, 12:22 PM
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I will forever associate jt512 with *ploink* sound.

A drop of water = JT CANNOT ABIDE.

DMT


Partner rrrADAM


Sep 28, 2010, 12:25 PM
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bill413 wrote:
rrrADAM wrote:
iron106 wrote:
Worn biners are usually stronger than new ones.
Huh?????

What leads you to believe this? Seriously, what? Do you have any data, or anything to support this?

In all my years (22, the last 16 at nukes) of performing inspections of materials, and doing failure analysis, I have never, ever heard this... Worn = Less material = Less strength.

At least one basis for the statement that worn biners are stronger is here, based on unofficial testing. However, here is unofficial testing that is specific to this type of accident.
That is misleading, as the groove serves to keep the rope at the biner's/shut's strongest point, even though it has been weakened.

The biner/shut is NOT stronger, as less metal equals less strength for two pieces of identical design. Period.


Example:

Would you rap off of a bush/tree that was 1" in diameter, strongly rooted, with a small groove worn into it at the base that was opposite the direction of force, if the load (rope) was just a few inches above the base/groove? Hell no!

BUT, if the rope was in the groove, keeping it at the base, it would likely still be hella strong.


Point... The base of the tree/bush is akin to the strongest point in the biner, and even though there is a groove, it is still string enough (if the load is applied in the right place), BUT NOT AS STRONG as if there were no groove IF the load were applied outside that groove, it would be WEAKER. And where would the biner fail? At the weakest point, where significant metal loss has weakened it (I.e., the groove)


(This post was edited by rrrADAM on Sep 28, 2010, 12:35 PM)


hafilax


Sep 28, 2010, 12:42 PM
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rrrADAM wrote:
bill413 wrote:
rrrADAM wrote:
iron106 wrote:
Worn biners are usually stronger than new ones.
Huh?????

What leads you to believe this? Seriously, what? Do you have any data, or anything to support this?

In all my years (22, the last 16 at nukes) of performing inspections of materials, and doing failure analysis, I have never, ever heard this... Worn = Less material = Less strength.

At least one basis for the statement that worn biners are stronger is here, based on unofficial testing. However, here is unofficial testing that is specific to this type of accident.
That is misleading, as the groove serves to keep the rope at the biner's/shut's strongest point, even though it has been weakened.

The biner/shut is NOT stronger, as less metal equals less strength for two pieces of identical design. Period.


Example:

Would you rap off of a bush/tree that was 1" in diameter, strongly rooted, with a small groove worn into it at the base that was opposite the direction of force, if the load (rope) was just a few inches above the base/groove? Hell no!

BUT, if the rope was in the groove, keeping it at the base, it would likely still be hella strong.


Point... The base of the tree/bush is akin to the strongest point in the biner, and even though there is a groove, it is still string enough, BUT NOT AS STRONG as if there were no groove IF the load were applied outside that groove, it would be WEAKER. And where would the biner fail? At the weakest point, where significant metal loss has weakened it (I.e., the groove)
By that logic, a biner is only as strong as it's cross-loading strength.

It's difficult to generalize and not worth the effort. A worn biner is a worn biner. The rope might stay in the groove better and be fine. It might crossload and fail catastrophically.

The point of this whole thread is that there is a new failure mechanism that most wouldn't be aware of and that is the rare case of a knife edge wearing into biners under very special circumstances. Sport climbers should be aware.

The Squamish Access Society is currently replacing a lot of fixed hardware including draws at our most popular sport climbing area. There is a thread on our message board where people post reports of suspect gear and anchors and as well they can report it to the access society directly. IMO the community chooses where to put fixed gear and how to maintain it. There's not much more to it.


redlude97


Sep 28, 2010, 12:46 PM
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rrrADAM wrote:
bill413 wrote:
rrrADAM wrote:
iron106 wrote:
Worn biners are usually stronger than new ones.
Huh?????

What leads you to believe this? Seriously, what? Do you have any data, or anything to support this?

In all my years (22, the last 16 at nukes) of performing inspections of materials, and doing failure analysis, I have never, ever heard this... Worn = Less material = Less strength.

At least one basis for the statement that worn biners are stronger is here, based on unofficial testing. However, here is unofficial testing that is specific to this type of accident.
That is misleading, as the groove serves to keep the rope at the biner's/shut's strongest point, even though it has been weakened.

The biner/shut is NOT stronger, as less metal equals less strength for two pieces of identical design. Period.


Example:

Would you rap off of a bush/tree that was 1" in diameter, strongly rooted, with a small groove worn into it at the base that was opposite the direction of force, if the load (rope) was just a few inches above the base/groove? Hell no!

BUT, if the rope was in the groove, keeping it at the base, it would likely still be hella strong.


Point... The base of the tree/bush is akin to the strongest point in the biner, and even though there is a groove, it is still string enough (if the load is applied in the right place), BUT NOT AS STRONG as if there were no groove IF the load were applied outside that groove, it would be WEAKER. And where would the biner fail? At the weakest point, where significant metal loss has weakened it (I.e., the groove)
I think everyone gets the argument in semantics from the first page. Stronger was never the correct term to use. Now, the question of whether or not a biner loaded closer to its spine will break at higher loads is not definitively proven. The fact that many manufacturers are starting to incorporate indentions in newer biner designs very similar to those exhibited in rope wear spots provides at least some anecdotal evidence that biner wear to a certain extent shouldn't be a significant concern in terms of the biner breaking when loaded in a normal fall.


Partner rrrADAM


Sep 28, 2010, 12:56 PM
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hafilax wrote:
rrrADAM wrote:
bill413 wrote:
rrrADAM wrote:
iron106 wrote:
Worn biners are usually stronger than new ones.
Huh?????

What leads you to believe this? Seriously, what? Do you have any data, or anything to support this?

In all my years (22, the last 16 at nukes) of performing inspections of materials, and doing failure analysis, I have never, ever heard this... Worn = Less material = Less strength.

At least one basis for the statement that worn biners are stronger is here, based on unofficial testing. However, here is unofficial testing that is specific to this type of accident.
That is misleading, as the groove serves to keep the rope at the biner's/shut's strongest point, even though it has been weakened.

The biner/shut is NOT stronger, as less metal equals less strength for two pieces of identical design. Period.


Example:

Would you rap off of a bush/tree that was 1" in diameter, strongly rooted, with a small groove worn into it at the base that was opposite the direction of force, if the load (rope) was just a few inches above the base/groove? Hell no!

BUT, if the rope was in the groove, keeping it at the base, it would likely still be hella strong.


Point... The base of the tree/bush is akin to the strongest point in the biner, and even though there is a groove, it is still string enough, BUT NOT AS STRONG as if there were no groove IF the load were applied outside that groove, it would be WEAKER. And where would the biner fail? At the weakest point, where significant metal loss has weakened it (I.e., the groove)
By that logic, a biner is only as strong as it's cross-loading strength.

It's difficult to generalize and not worth the effort. A worn biner is a worn biner. The rope might stay in the groove better and be fine. It might crossload and fail catastrophically.

The point of this whole thread is that there is a new failure mechanism that most wouldn't be aware of and that is the rare case of a knife edge wearing into biners under very special circumstances. Sport climbers should be aware.

The Squamish Access Society is currently replacing a lot of fixed hardware including draws at our most popular sport climbing area. There is a thread on our message board where people post reports of suspect gear and anchors and as well they can report it to the access society directly. IMO the community chooses where to put fixed gear and how to maintain it. There's not much more to it.
Understood, my bad... I got distracted by semantics.


Partner j_ung


Sep 29, 2010, 7:13 AM
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dingus wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Of course, BD presents limited data on a single model of carabiner, so we should be careful about drawing hasty conclusions from it or generalizing it to other models of carabiner.

Jay

Ah of course so we should continue to saw through our fixed biners (because people will steal our convenience draws the bastards!), everything is A OK!

DMT

Interesting. I inferred the exact opposite from the statement you quoted.


Ronadon


Oct 5, 2010, 5:12 AM
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Ask and you shall receive. I'm not sure if anyone put this up yet but here you go.

http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en-us/journal/climb/knowledge/qc-lab-dangers-of-rope-worn-carabiners


jt512


Oct 5, 2010, 9:03 AM
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Ronadon wrote:
Ask and you shall receive. I'm not sure if anyone put this up yet but here you go.

http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en-us/journal/climb/knowledge/qc-lab-dangers-of-rope-worn-carabiners

As I stated over there, a possible limitation of this test is that it looks like they created the groove in the biner using a file or some other tool. I'd like to see more tests of biners that have been grooved by natural use, including tests of non-fixed biners with more rounded grooves, in order to get a better a better understanding of the risks that these biners pose.

Jay


hugepedro


Oct 5, 2010, 11:51 AM
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Cover story on last month's issue of !DUH!Magazine: "Sharp Edges Can Cut Ropes!"

What, you guys don't have a subscription? Better get one!

The only thing shocking about this story is that climbers don't know this. How have y'all lived this long?


moose_droppings


Oct 5, 2010, 12:35 PM
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jt512 wrote:

Could we please not derail this thread with a semantic argument about the meaning of the word "stronger."

Jay

Practice what you preach.


jt512


Oct 5, 2010, 1:13 PM
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moose_droppings wrote:
jt512 wrote:

Could we please not derail this thread with a semantic argument about the meaning of the word "stronger."

Jay

Practice what you preach.

I think I do. Show me otherwise, or shut the fuck up.

Jay


dingus


Oct 5, 2010, 1:17 PM
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Re: [jt512] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
moose_droppings wrote:
jt512 wrote:

Could we please not derail this thread with a semantic argument about the meaning of the word "stronger."

Jay

Practice what you preach.

I think I do. Show me otherwise, or shut the fuck up.

Jay

Shut the fuck up.

Just shut the fuck up.

Shutthefuckupshutthefuckupshutthefuckup.

JT Eight Mile.

DMT


moose_droppings


Oct 5, 2010, 1:55 PM
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Re: [jt512] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
moose_droppings wrote:
jt512 wrote:

Could we please not derail this thread with a semantic argument about the meaning of the word "stronger."

Jay

Practice what you preach.

I think I do. Show me otherwise, or shut the fuck up.

Jay

OK, easy enough.

jt512 wrote:
I don't think that it is a forgone conclusion that a moderately grooved carabiner is weaker than an an ungrooved one. Limited information from BD suggests that the point where the groove develops, the bottom of the carabiner's basket, is not where carabiners typically break in any common failure mode. So moderate weakening there may have no effect on the biner's ultimate strength. Of course, BD presents limited data on a single model of carabiner, so we should be careful about drawing hasty conclusions from it or generalizing it to other models of carabiner.

Jay

More talk of biner strength.

jt512 wrote:
As I stated over there, a possible limitation of this test is that it looks like they created the groove in the biner using a file or some other tool. I'd like to see more tests of biners that have been grooved by natural use, including tests of non-fixed biners with more rounded grooves, in order to get a better a better understanding of the risks that these biners pose.

Jay

To pretend you aren't helping perpetuate talk of the semantics of biner strength and therefore not "practicing what you preach" is nothing more than obvious denial of facts.

I would expect more, from of all people, you.


redlude97


Oct 5, 2010, 2:19 PM
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Re: [moose_droppings] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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moose_droppings wrote:
jt512 wrote:
moose_droppings wrote:
jt512 wrote:

Could we please not derail this thread with a semantic argument about the meaning of the word "stronger."

Jay

Practice what you preach.

I think I do. Show me otherwise, or shut the fuck up.

Jay

OK, easy enough.

jt512 wrote:
I don't think that it is a forgone conclusion that a moderately grooved carabiner is weaker than an an ungrooved one. Limited information from BD suggests that the point where the groove develops, the bottom of the carabiner's basket, is not where carabiners typically break in any common failure mode. So moderate weakening there may have no effect on the biner's ultimate strength. Of course, BD presents limited data on a single model of carabiner, so we should be careful about drawing hasty conclusions from it or generalizing it to other models of carabiner.

Jay

More talk of biner strength.

jt512 wrote:
As I stated over there, a possible limitation of this test is that it looks like they created the groove in the biner using a file or some other tool. I'd like to see more tests of biners that have been grooved by natural use, including tests of non-fixed biners with more rounded grooves, in order to get a better a better understanding of the risks that these biners pose.

Jay

To pretend you aren't helping perpetuate talk of the semantics of biner strength and therefore not "practicing what you preach" is nothing more than obvious denial of facts.

I would expect more, from of all people, you.
I don't think you get Jay's actual point. I think everyone was in agreement that the biner would probably hold a higher load before breaking, or at least high enough that it shouldn't be a significant concern. The semantics came about when I along with a few others described this as the biner being "stronger" as opposed to concentrating the load closer to the spine. The biner is not actually "stronger" in a technical sense.


jt512


Oct 5, 2010, 2:23 PM
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Re: [moose_droppings] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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moose_droppings wrote:
jt512 wrote:
moose_droppings wrote:
jt512 wrote:

Could we please not derail this thread with a semantic argument about the meaning of the word "stronger."

Jay

Practice what you preach.

I think I do. Show me otherwise, or shut the fuck up.

Jay

OK, easy enough.

jt512 wrote:
I don't think that it is a forgone conclusion that a moderately grooved carabiner is weaker than an an ungrooved one. Limited information from BD suggests that the point where the groove develops, the bottom of the carabiner's basket, is not where carabiners typically break in any common failure mode. So moderate weakening there may have no effect on the biner's ultimate strength. Of course, BD presents limited data on a single model of carabiner, so we should be careful about drawing hasty conclusions from it or generalizing it to other models of carabiner.

Jay

More talk of biner strength.

jt512 wrote:
As I stated over there, a possible limitation of this test is that it looks like they created the groove in the biner using a file or some other tool. I'd like to see more tests of biners that have been grooved by natural use, including tests of non-fixed biners with more rounded grooves, in order to get a better a better understanding of the risks that these biners pose.

Jay

To pretend you aren't helping perpetuate talk of the semantics of biner strength and therefore not "practicing what you preach" is nothing more than obvious denial of facts.

If you think that that is arguing over semantics, there's not much I can do to help you. At best, I could spend way too much time and effort explaining why it is not, only to have you still not get it.

Edit: You're so lost that you don't even see that the second quote isn't even about biner strength, in any sense of the term.

I think is stupid enough to be considered your first strike.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Oct 5, 2010, 2:36 PM)


hugepedro


Oct 5, 2010, 2:44 PM
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I can't decide if this site would be more or less interesting without a bunch of pussies whining about Jay all the time. Christ people, what happened to the good old days when climbers used to just tell each other to fuck off and it was all good?


moose_droppings


Oct 5, 2010, 3:57 PM
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Re: [jt512] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
If you think that that is arguing over semantics, there's not much I can do to help you. At best, I could spend way too much time and effort explaining why it is not, only to have you still not get it.


Jay

Didn't say you were arguing the point. Your talking about it just continues (perpetuates) the conversation about which (semantics) is stronger with posts like this

In reply to:
I don't think that it is a forgone conclusion that a moderately grooved carabiner is weaker than an an ungrooved one.

Which you had asked earlier in the thread to stop.



jt512 wrote:
Edit: You're so lost that you don't even see that the second quote isn't even about biner strength, in any sense of the term.

You got me there. I inferred from this statement below that one "of the risks" (plural) was one of the risks could of been of biner strength.

jt512 wrote:
in order to get a better a better understanding of the risks that these biners pose.



jt512 wrote:
I think is stupid enough to be considered your first strike.

Knock yourself out.


jt512


Oct 5, 2010, 4:11 PM
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Re: [moose_droppings] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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moose_droppings wrote:
jt512 wrote:
If you think that that is arguing over semantics, there's not much I can do to help you. At best, I could spend way too much time and effort explaining why it is not, only to have you still not get it.

Didn't say you were arguing the point.

You accused me of "derail[ing] this thread with a semantic argument about the meaning of the word 'stronger'." I was not making a semantic argument at all; I was trying to raise a substantive point. However, you have chosen to derail the thread by accusing me (falsely) of doing just what you're doing. So, please, just shut the fuck up, unless you actually want to discuss the topic. Or, if you really think this matter warrants further discussion, start a new thread about it. Any further discussion of it here can only be construed as intentionally disrupting the thread.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Oct 5, 2010, 4:13 PM)


moose_droppings


Oct 5, 2010, 4:37 PM
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Re: [jt512] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
I don't think that it is a forgone conclusion that a moderately grooved carabiner is weaker than an an ungrooved one. Limited information from BD suggests that the point where the groove develops, the bottom of the carabiner's basket, is not where carabiners typically break in any common failure mode. So moderate weakening there may have no effect on the biner's ultimate strength.

Yep, your were just making a point.

That's all I did earlier too, which initiated your self appointed modding powers to curb the thread, which apparently also allows you to exempt yourself from making like points.


Gmburns2000


Oct 5, 2010, 4:45 PM
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Re: [hugepedro] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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hugepedro wrote:
I can't decide if this site would be more or less interesting without a bunch of pussies whining about Jay all the time. Christ people, what happened to the good old days when climbers used to just tell each other to fuck off and it was all good?

fuck off































































Tongue


jt512


Oct 5, 2010, 4:49 PM
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Re: [moose_droppings] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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moose_droppings wrote:
jt512 wrote:
I don't think that it is a forgone conclusion that a moderately grooved carabiner is weaker than an an ungrooved one. Limited information from BD suggests that the point where the groove develops, the bottom of the carabiner's basket, is not where carabiners typically break in any common failure mode. So moderate weakening there may have no effect on the biner's ultimate strength.

Yep, your were just making a point.

That's all I did earlier too, which initiated your self appointed modding powers to curb the thread, which apparently also allows you to exempt yourself from making like points.

I said I was making a substantive point that was germane to the topic of thread. You're just derailing the thread, and it is clear now that you are doing so intentionally.

Strike 2.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Oct 5, 2010, 6:00 PM)


moose_droppings


Oct 5, 2010, 6:07 PM
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Re: [jt512] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
I said I was making a substantive point that was germane to the topic of thread. You're just derailing the thread, and it is clear now that you are doing so intentionally.

Jay

I, I, I.

Takes 2 to tango, go ahead and mod yourself too.

In reply to:
Strike 2.

Sure hope I can go on with life.
Please reconsider.


jt512


Oct 5, 2010, 6:09 PM
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Re: [moose_droppings] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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moose_droppings wrote:
jt512 wrote:
I said I was making a substantive point that was germane to the topic of thread. You're just derailing the thread, and it is clear now that you are doing so intentionally.

Jay

I, I, I.

Takes 2 to tango, go ahead and mod yourself too.

In reply to:
Strike 2.

Sure hope I can go on with life.
Please reconsider.

Nope.

*plonk* for incorrigible stupidity.


moose_droppings


Oct 5, 2010, 6:52 PM
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jt512 wrote:
moose_droppings wrote:
jt512 wrote:
I said I was making a substantive point that was germane to the topic of thread. You're just derailing the thread, and it is clear now that you are doing so intentionally.

Jay

I, I, I.

Takes 2 to tango, go ahead and mod yourself too.

In reply to:
Strike 2.

Sure hope I can go on with life.
Please reconsider.

Nope.

*plonk* for incorrigible stupidity.


Free at last from the tryanny.

May your security blanket force field forever keep you safe.


hugepedro


Oct 5, 2010, 8:52 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
hugepedro wrote:
I can't decide if this site would be more or less interesting without a bunch of pussies whining about Jay all the time. Christ people, what happened to the good old days when climbers used to just tell each other to fuck off and it was all good?

fuck off

jt512 wrote:
So, please, just shut the fuck up


That's what I'm talkin bout!


jt512


Oct 5, 2010, 9:19 PM
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hugepedro wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
hugepedro wrote:
I can't decide if this site would be more or less interesting without a bunch of pussies whining about Jay all the time. Christ people, what happened to the good old days when climbers used to just tell each other to fuck off and it was all good?

fuck off

jt512 wrote:
So, please, just shut the fuck up


That's what I'm talkin bout!

I do what I can.


hugepedro


Oct 5, 2010, 9:23 PM
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jt512 wrote:
hugepedro wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
hugepedro wrote:
I can't decide if this site would be more or less interesting without a bunch of pussies whining about Jay all the time. Christ people, what happened to the good old days when climbers used to just tell each other to fuck off and it was all good?

fuck off

jt512 wrote:
So, please, just shut the fuck up


That's what I'm talkin bout!

I do what I can.

Fuck you.


MS1


Oct 6, 2010, 4:36 AM
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hugepedro wrote:
jt512 wrote:
hugepedro wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
hugepedro wrote:
I can't decide if this site would be more or less interesting without a bunch of pussies whining about Jay all the time. Christ people, what happened to the good old days when climbers used to just tell each other to fuck off and it was all good?

fuck off

jt512 wrote:
So, please, just shut the fuck up


That's what I'm talkin bout!

I do what I can.

Fuck you.

At a time like this, it is well worth revisiting the classics: http://www.youtube.com/...ature=related#t=1m4s


boymeetsrock


Oct 6, 2010, 7:38 AM
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MS1 wrote:
hugepedro wrote:
jt512 wrote:
hugepedro wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
hugepedro wrote:
I can't decide if this site would be more or less interesting without a bunch of pussies whining about Jay all the time. Christ people, what happened to the good old days when climbers used to just tell each other to fuck off and it was all good?

fuck off

jt512 wrote:
So, please, just shut the fuck up


That's what I'm talkin bout!

I do what I can.

Fuck you.

At a time like this, it is well worth revisiting the classics: http://www.youtube.com/...ature=related#t=1m4s

Yes, Cool fuck you too ! ** waves good day**


Gmburns2000


Oct 6, 2010, 8:04 AM
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boymeetsrock wrote:
MS1 wrote:
hugepedro wrote:
jt512 wrote:
hugepedro wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
hugepedro wrote:
I can't decide if this site would be more or less interesting without a bunch of pussies whining about Jay all the time. Christ people, what happened to the good old days when climbers used to just tell each other to fuck off and it was all good?

fuck off

jt512 wrote:
So, please, just shut the fuck up


That's what I'm talkin bout!

I do what I can.

Fuck you.

At a time like this, it is well worth revisiting the classics: http://www.youtube.com/...ature=related#t=1m4s

Yes, Cool fuck you too ! ** waves good day**

can't forget this classic either


AntinJ


Oct 6, 2010, 11:36 AM
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Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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It's funny how it's easy to draw parallels when events occur:



Accidents in North American Mountaineering 1995. Vol. 48. Golden, Colo. : Banff: American Alpine Club, Alpine Club of Canada., 1994. Print.


iknowfear


Sep 30, 2012, 1:41 PM
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redlude97 wrote:
Saw this at RRC.com, biner with deep groove cuts a rope after a lead fall at the first bolt.
http://www.redriverclimbing.com/...php?f=21&t=13270

there has been a fatality in switzerland which was likely due to a sharp-edged fixed biner that cut the rope after a fall (this is preliminary, the official report is not out yet).

in german:
http://mdettling.blogspot.ch/...aber-gefahrlich.html

(note to add:
- the biner in the picture is one of a ground fall in a Prague climbing hall, and not from this climb
- the severed rope is from the Black Diamond tests)


climb2core


Nov 16, 2012, 5:12 AM
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We are starting an initiative to reduce mank gear in the Red. Please check out our FB page at if you ever climb at the Red River Gorge:

https://www.facebook.com/RrgFixedGearEthicsInitiative


ilikepargo


Nov 20, 2012, 9:51 AM
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iron106 wrote:
I don't think the groove was actually that bad. I think the only problem was the sharpness of the groove. Worn biners are usually stronger than new ones.
Yup. I also find that my rope is stronger if I cut it halfway through before I climb. I also cut halfway through my harness and through the dogbones on all my quickdraws. Then, just before I climb, I usually take a big rock and crack my own head with it a couple of times, so that I'm halfway to a really good concussion. That makes me a better, smarter climber. Crazy


shotwell


Nov 20, 2012, 10:24 AM
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ilikepargo wrote:
iron106 wrote:
I don't think the groove was actually that bad. I think the only problem was the sharpness of the groove. Worn biners are usually stronger than new ones.
Yup. I also find that my rope is stronger if I cut it halfway through before I climb. I also cut halfway through my harness and through the dogbones on all my quickdraws. Then, just before I climb, I usually take a big rock and crack my own head with it a couple of times, so that I'm halfway to a really good concussion. That makes me a better, smarter climber. Crazy

Have you read the relevant Black Diamond article? Pretty sure it suggests that a moderate rope groove actually does result in a biner that pull tests slightly above a new biner. Pretty sure this is simply because the rope groove keeps the rope aligned with the spine. This may be wrong; I haven't read the article in a couple of years.

That being said, worn carabiners are a real problem. Clearly not something to mess around with and should be retired because they can be quite sharp. I keep one sharp enough to cut me on my pack to remind me of this. It was the lone lower off point for a sport route.


mojomonkey


Nov 20, 2012, 10:26 AM
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ilikepargo wrote:
iron106 wrote:
I don't think the groove was actually that bad. I think the only problem was the sharpness of the groove. Worn biners are usually stronger than new ones.
Yup. I also find that my rope is stronger if I cut it halfway through before I climb. I also cut halfway through my harness and through the dogbones on all my quickdraws. Then, just before I climb, I usually take a big rock and crack my own head with it a couple of times, so that I'm halfway to a really good concussion. That makes me a better, smarter climber. Crazy

Do you realize you are jumping in on a point that was sorted out a few posts below the one you quoted, just over two years ago. Maybe ease up on the rocks to the head?


iknowfear


Nov 20, 2012, 12:25 PM
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Mammut made some more tests:
https://d1qxh2iwg385ci.cloudfront.net/...tigeKarabiner_EN.pdf

Mammut wrote:
"Mammut is urgently calling for the immediate discontinuation of use and removal of
permanently installed quick draws and carabiners in climbing areas"


(This post was edited by iknowfear on Nov 20, 2012, 12:26 PM)


ilikepargo


Nov 20, 2012, 4:34 PM
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mojomonkey wrote:
ilikepargo wrote:
iron106 wrote:
I don't think the groove was actually that bad. I think the only problem was the sharpness of the groove. Worn biners are usually stronger than new ones.
Yup. I also find that my rope is stronger if I cut it halfway through before I climb. I also cut halfway through my harness and through the dogbones on all my quickdraws. Then, just before I climb, I usually take a big rock and crack my own head with it a couple of times, so that I'm halfway to a really good concussion. That makes me a better, smarter climber. Crazy

Do you realize you are jumping in on a point that was sorted out a few posts below the one you quoted, just over two years ago. Maybe ease up on the rocks to the head?

Yes, I realize that. I was having a bit of fun at the expense of an absurd and pointless comment. You've heard of fun, right?

(Beyond the semantic issue of what is/isn't "strong", the incident was not caused by the 'biner being weak. It was caused by the 'biner being sharp.)


Forums : Climbing Information : Accident and Incident Analysis

 


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