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Gunks Accidents this weekend(s)
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livinonasandbar


Oct 13, 2010, 10:46 AM
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Re: [olderic] Gunks Accidents this weekend (October 2/3rd) [In reply to]
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Decide and agree with your belayer, before you leave the ground, if you'll be rapping or lowering off from the top of the pitch.


olderic


Oct 13, 2010, 11:01 AM
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Re: [livinonasandbar] Gunks Accidents this weekend (October 2/3rd) [In reply to]
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livinonasandbar wrote:
Decide and agree with your belayer, before you leave the ground, if you'll be rapping or lowering off from the top of the pitch.

And that exact scenario is the cause of many accidents because the climber changes his mind or forgets that he said A and does B. Communicate with your partner immediately before committing to some act that depend on him. Cant communicate? Then do not do any thing that depends on the partners actions 100%. Obviously there are exceptions and you have to rely on previously agreed upon default behavior. But in the simple 1/2 pitch climbing situation that we are talking about here there should be very few times when the partners can't confirm again (and again) what is going to happen.


reverse_dyno


Oct 13, 2010, 1:22 PM
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Re: [olderic] Gunks Accidents this weekend (October 2/3rd) [In reply to]
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If you are so stupid that you can not even handle remembering what you told your belay you were going to do when you got to the top of the climb, then you shouldn't be climbing.

There is such a thing as being tooooooo paranoid. That can cause accidents as well. Like not moving quickly when a storm is coming in because you can not trust your belayer.

Shit happens, not trusting your belayer isn't going to help it not happen. If you can not trust them 100%, whether or not you can communicate with them, do not climb with them!


kobaz


Oct 13, 2010, 3:43 PM
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Re: [reverse_dyno] Gunks Accidents this weekend (October 2/3rd) [In reply to]
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reverse_dyno wrote:
If you can not trust them 100%, whether or not you can communicate with them, do not climb with them!

I view that as a very strange statement to make. And a very strange attitude to have towards a partner.

I trust that my belayer will catch a fall and have me on belay at all times until told otherwise. But I still verbally/visually/physically check things that he does because we are human and make mistakes, mishear things, and misinterpret things.

There's trust... and then there's making assumptions. Assumptions kill.

In reply to:
whether or not you can communicate with them,

How can you possibly have trust in your belayer to do what you want your belayer to do, without communication? Is there something I missed?


Partner robdotcalm


Oct 13, 2010, 4:44 PM
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Re: [reverse_dyno] Gunks Accidents this weekend (October 2/3rd) [In reply to]
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reverse_dyno wrote:
not trusting your belayer isn't going to help it not happen. If you can not trust them 100%, whether or not you can communicate with them, do not climb with them!

Ronald Reagan to Gorbachev: "Trust but verify."

r.c


Gmburns2000


Oct 13, 2010, 6:09 PM
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Re: [reverse_dyno] Gunks Accidents this weekend (October 2/3rd) [In reply to]
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reverse_dyno wrote:
If you are so stupid that you can not even handle remembering what you told your belay you were going to do when you got to the top of the climb, then you shouldn't be climbing.

There is such a thing as being tooooooo paranoid. That can cause accidents as well. Like not moving quickly when a storm is coming in because you can not trust your belayer.

Shit happens, not trusting your belayer isn't going to help it not happen. If you can not trust them 100%, whether or not you can communicate with them, do not climb with them!

lots of things happen enroute that can change things. don't discount that. I've told my belayor many times that I'd probably rap off only to realize that it would be easier to clean a route, let's say, while being lowered.

I've also been so focused on a climb that I have completely forgotten what was said before the climb started. If that makes me stupid then OK, but I'd rather be that kind of stupid and communicate with my partner than the kind of stupid who isn't willing to change course based on scenarios.


olderic


Oct 13, 2010, 6:42 PM
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Re: [reverse_dyno] Gunks Accidents this weekend (October 2/3rd) [In reply to]
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reverse_dyno wrote:
If you are so stupid that you can not even handle remembering what you told your belay you were going to do when you got to the top of the climb, then you shouldn't be climbing.

There is such a thing as being tooooooo paranoid. That can cause accidents as well. Like not moving quickly when a storm is coming in because you can not trust your belayer.

Shit happens, not trusting your belayer isn't going to help it not happen. If you can not trust them 100%, whether or not you can communicate with them, do not climb with them!

There is a difference between being on an alpine ridge when a storms a brewing ("Quick lets simul rap off this 3 year old tat") and being out for a day of boasting and bragging at some over bolted grade inflated outdoor rock gym - which is primarily what the context of this thread is about (yes I know that it is supposed to be about the Gunks). If you can't adjust your level of paranoia and safety procedures to be context specific - well then you are even more uptight and inflexible then the average Swiss


livinonasandbar


Oct 14, 2010, 5:53 AM
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Re: [olderic] Gunks Accidents this weekend (October 2/3rd) [In reply to]
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I think we've aboot worn this thread oot. Carry on...


dagger


Oct 18, 2010, 7:03 PM
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Re: [gblauer] Gunks Accidents this weekend(s) [In reply to]
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Steve just blogged about his accident. If you're interested in reading his firsthand account it's posted at http://ultramtnsteve.blogspot.com/...er-me-surviving.html


gblauer
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Oct 18, 2010, 7:19 PM
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Re: [dagger] Gunks Accidents this weekend(s) [In reply to]
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Wow, Steve, you are one lucky and resilient guy!

Wishing you (and your loved ones) a very speedy recovery.


sethg


Oct 18, 2010, 8:28 PM
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Re: [gblauer] Gunks Accidents this weekend(s) [In reply to]
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Holy crap, just a broken femur? Amazing. Very very lucky. I wish Steve and his family a full and speedy recovery.


bill413


Oct 19, 2010, 5:44 AM
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Re: [ClimbClimb] Gunks Accidents this weekend (October 2/3rd) [In reply to]
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ClimbClimb wrote:
Well said, as usual.

rgold wrote:
(3) I know this will never catch on, but I don't understand why people don't mostly "self-lower." After threading the rope through the anchor, run it through your belay device on your harness or a Munter and lower yourself.
...
Is there some downside to this I'm missing?

I think the downsides are the same as for rapping -- which is that it seems to have a worse safety record than even the lowering / mistakenly-off-belay accidents.

Along with this, we've heard (or seen) accidents where the rope was shorter than required for the rappel. In this setup, there can be no knot at the end of the rope; so if the climb is longer than half a rope length the climber falls. (Yes, they would be stuck partway down if being lowered by a partner, but at least a knot could keep them from the deck.)


boymeetsrock


Oct 19, 2010, 7:34 AM
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Re: [bill413] Gunks Accidents this weekend (October 2/3rd) [In reply to]
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Yikes! Heal well Steve. Wishing you a smooth and full recovery.


majid_sabet


Oct 19, 2010, 8:20 AM
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Re: [gblauer] Gunks Accidents this weekend(s) [In reply to]
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Thank god that Yosemite,Zion, Teton, Indian....are not anywhere near Gunks or RRG.

Those two areas broke the accident records in North America


gblauer
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Oct 19, 2010, 8:36 AM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Gunks Accidents this weekend(s) [In reply to]
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Majid, Are you saying that the RRG and Gunks broke records for most accidents this year?


majid_sabet


Oct 19, 2010, 10:21 AM
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Re: [gblauer] Gunks Accidents this weekend(s) [In reply to]
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gblauer wrote:
Majid, Are you saying that the RRG and Gunks broke records for most accidents this year?

very much. for the volume of climbing traffic, these two area are moving up fast on the scale and I like to figure out why.

I speculate that most of the accidents in these area is concentrate around the younger and least experienced trad climbers who are rushing too fast in to harder routes without understanding the basic principle of climbing, in particular, placing solid protection .


boymeetsrock


Oct 19, 2010, 10:24 AM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Gunks Accidents this weekend(s) [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
gblauer wrote:
Majid, Are you saying that the RRG and Gunks broke records for most accidents this year?

very much. for the volume of climbing traffic, these two area are moving up fast on the scale and I like to figure out why.

I speculate that most of the accidents in these area is concentrate around the younger and least experienced trad climbers who are rushing too fast in to harder routes without understanding the basic principle of climbing, in particular, placing solid protection .

If that is your assumption I would suggest you may not be paying enough attention to the accident reports... Lots of variety in the age of injured parties, and many accidents occurring at the belay.


majid_sabet


Oct 19, 2010, 10:33 AM
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Re: [boymeetsrock] Gunks Accidents this weekend(s) [In reply to]
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boymeetsrock wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
gblauer wrote:
Majid, Are you saying that the RRG and Gunks broke records for most accidents this year?

very much. for the volume of climbing traffic, these two area are moving up fast on the scale and I like to figure out why.

I speculate that most of the accidents in these area is concentrate around the younger and least experienced trad climbers who are rushing too fast in to harder routes without understanding the basic principle of climbing, in particular, placing solid protection .

If that is your assumption I would suggest you may not be paying enough attention to the accident reports... Lots of variety in the age of injured parties, and many accidents occurring at the belay.

I been paying attention more than most people so in the past 11 years of monitoring climbing accidents in USA, trust me, I know what I am talking about. Now, if you asked me where we had the most fatalities in the US, I would tell you that CO Rockies had the most record in 2010.

here is what i post not to long ago in RC

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_16283929?_requestid=8522159


(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Oct 19, 2010, 10:34 AM)


jakedatc


Oct 19, 2010, 10:34 AM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Gunks Accidents this weekend(s) [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
gblauer wrote:
Majid, Are you saying that the RRG and Gunks broke records for most accidents this year?

very much. for the volume of climbing traffic, these two area are moving up fast on the scale and I like to figure out why.

I speculate that most of the accidents in these area is concentrate around the younger and least experienced trad climbers who are rushing too fast in to harder routes without understanding the basic principle of climbing, in particular, placing solid protection .


as usual, you are wrong. Move along now. buh bye


sethg


Oct 19, 2010, 12:33 PM
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Re: [jakedatc] Gunks Accidents this weekend(s) [In reply to]
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By the way, the crazy crowding on moderate classics isn't unique to the Gunks. Check out this Supertopo thread about a dispute on Frogland in Red Rocks. Pretty funny stuff.

http://www.supertopo.com/...vior-On-route-Thread

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