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p8ntballsk8r
Oct 28, 2010, 7:53 PM
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I understand back clipping and how to prevent it.
My question is if I'm climbing up a crack/route where the bolts are on my right side, then the route moves to the right, farther than where the bolts were. Now the quickdraws are aligned as if they are backclipped, aren't they?
Another similar scenario is an overhang where you must go to the left side of the bolt on your way up, but once you are past the overhang, the route wanders to the right, over and past the bolt you just clipped.
I've looked down and seen what appeared to be a backclipped draw, however when I was climbing that part of the route, I did not backclip
Hopefully that description makes sense, please let me know if I'm wrong, missing something, or need to do something differently
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spikeddem
Oct 28, 2010, 8:05 PM
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Neither of those situations result in a back clip. You may want to double check that you do in fact know what a back clip is, because it should be clear.
If you clip the rope and climb underneath the rope and out the other side, then you'd be backclipped.
Sounds to me like maybe you think back clipping is when you're climbing on the gated side of the rope-holding carabiner.
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gosharks
Oct 28, 2010, 8:05 PM
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Your understanding of backclipping might be a little off. What is your definition?
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xbrianx1990
Oct 28, 2010, 8:06 PM
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There's a difference between backclipping and having the rope run over the gate. A backclipped draw has the rope going over the spine one the side that is outside of the rock face. In this seanerio the rope is pulled outward in a fall which in turn puts pressure on the gate causing it to open. Bad things come of this. A draw that has the rope coming up from betweed the rock face and the biner and goes left or right (over the spine or gate) is not "backclipped"
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p8ntballsk8r
Oct 28, 2010, 8:16 PM
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You are correct, I was thinking any time the gate was facing outward would result in back clipping.
My definition, or better yet my way of avoiding back clipping is to always insure I'm clipping towards my body with the spine facing out.
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jt512
Oct 28, 2010, 8:19 PM
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p8ntballsk8r wrote: I understand back clipping . . .
No, you don't.
In reply to: [I]f I'm climbing up a crack/route where the bolts are on my right side, then the route moves to the right, farther than where the bolts were. Another similar scenario is an overhang where you must go to the left side of the bolt on your way up, but once you are past the overhang, the route wanders to the right, over and past the bolt you just clipped.
In those situations, you have several choices: - Use a draw with locking biners.
- Put two draws on the bolt, with gates facing opposite directions.
- Stop worrying.
Jay
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spikeddem
Oct 28, 2010, 8:27 PM
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p8ntballsk8r wrote: You are correct, I was thinking any time the gate was facing outward would result in back clipping. My definition, or better yet my way of avoiding back clipping is to always insure I'm clipping towards my body with the spine facing out.
Your idea of back clipping is incorrect. You should probably tell whoever taught you and whoever you taught that it is incorrect.
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p8ntballsk8r
Oct 29, 2010, 12:05 AM
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spikeddem wrote: p8ntballsk8r wrote: You are correct, I was thinking any time the gate was facing outward would result in back clipping. My definition, or better yet my way of avoiding back clipping is to always insure I'm clipping towards my body with the spine facing out. Your idea of back clipping is incorrect. You should probably tell whoever taught you and whoever you taught that it is incorrect.
Will do. Doesn't back clipping just look horribly wrong and the draw is twisted? I know I've done it a couple times and could immediately tell it wasn't right.
Can someone explain how my idea is wrong? i was taught to clip away from the rocks and towards my body instead of away from my body and toward the rocks.
Now just out of habit it feels wrong to clip the other way
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chilli
Oct 29, 2010, 12:21 AM
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i always have a tough time explaining backclipping without showing someone.
did an image search and found a very nice pic @ the following page: http://www.spadout.com/w/quickdraw/
regarding your question (or my interpretation of it), the problem you're worried about is climbing on the gate side instead of spine side, and the answer has been supplied by jay (jt512).
in my opinion, the easiest solution is to look at where you're headed (rather than where you are) when hanging your draw and orient the gate/spine accordingly.
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redlude97
Oct 29, 2010, 12:23 AM
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p8ntballsk8r wrote: spikeddem wrote: p8ntballsk8r wrote: You are correct, I was thinking any time the gate was facing outward would result in back clipping. My definition, or better yet my way of avoiding back clipping is to always insure I'm clipping towards my body with the spine facing out. Your idea of back clipping is incorrect. You should probably tell whoever taught you and whoever you taught that it is incorrect. Will do. Doesn't back clipping just look horribly wrong and the draw is twisted? I know I've done it a couple times and could immediately tell it wasn't right. Can someone explain how my idea is wrong? i was taught to clip away from the rocks and towards my body instead of away from my body and toward the rocks. Now just out of habit it feels wrong to clip the other way
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currupt4130
Oct 29, 2010, 2:16 AM
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As simply as I can put it, when you clip the rope needs to go from your harness, into the draw, and down to the ground.
If it goes to the wall, and back out the draw to you before it goes down you're back clipped.
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acorneau
Oct 29, 2010, 2:42 PM
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I found these in about 10 seconds...
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bill413
Oct 29, 2010, 2:58 PM
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Another danger of backclipping that is seldom shown in the admonitions against it is that it increases chances of the biner being lifted up, carrying the quickdraw with it. This can result in the bolt end biner getting caught up in the hanger along it's back or it's gate, increasing the chances of failure there.
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dbogardus
Oct 29, 2010, 4:43 PM
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When using extendable slings rather than short dogbones, the sling can become twisted giving the climber a false perception of whether or not it is back clipped.
Example: http://www.rockclimbing.com/...rad/Arch_115272.html
In the linked photo, the length of sling away from the rock is twisted and seems to be a potential back clip. Is it generally considered safe to clip according to how the rope end draw is naturally hanging and give less concerned to the twisted sling?
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ClimbSoHigh
Oct 29, 2010, 6:04 PM
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acorneau wrote: I found these in about 10 seconds... [image]http://www.greatoutdoors.com/files/imagecache/display/files/images/articles/backclip2.jpg[/image] [image]http://www.greatoutdoors.com/files/imagecache/display/files/images/articles/backclip1.jpg[/image]
So much WIN in this post!
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gosharks
Oct 29, 2010, 7:59 PM
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dbogardus wrote: When using extendable slings rather than short dogbones, the sling can become twisted giving the climber a false perception of whether or not it is back clipped. Example: http://www.rockclimbing.com/...rad/Arch_115272.html In the linked photo, the length of sling away from the rock is twisted and seems to be a potential back clip. Is it generally considered safe to clip according to how the rope end draw is naturally hanging and give less concerned to the twisted sling?
I don't really care if I am backclipping long slings, especially if they are the skinny dyneema kind.
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dbogardus
Oct 30, 2010, 12:42 AM
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Considering back clipping is one of the first things you should learn to prevent, I don't understand why you'd "not care".
Does the tendency of the biner to twist actually decrease the likelihood of the rope unclipping?
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USnavy
Oct 30, 2010, 1:16 AM
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dbogardus wrote: When using extendable slings rather than short dogbones, the sling can become twisted giving the climber a false perception of whether or not it is back clipped. Example: http://www.rockclimbing.com/...rad/Arch_115272.html In the linked photo, the length of sling away from the rock is twisted and seems to be a potential back clip. Is it generally considered safe to clip according to how the rope end draw is naturally hanging and give less concerned to the twisted sling?
I would not worry too much about it. Even if you backclip a two foot sling, the chance of it coming unclipped on a fall is extremely remote. Even the chance of a draw coming unclipped on a backclipped fall is rather low. But the reason why it’s possible for a draw to come uncliped in the first place is because sport draws are generally rather stiff, very short, and have some mechanism to hold the bottom biner in place which allows pressure from the rope to open the gate. With a two foot sling it would be hard to unclip the biner on a backclipped fall as the sling would likely just twist around 180 degrees if the rope caught the back side of the biner on a fall. The mechanism to hold the biner in place long enough for the rope to unclip itself on a two foot sling is simply not there. The draw is too long and the biner is not held in place which allows it to flop around at will. That said, I still would not recommend backclipping slings but if you did backclip one in some desperate clip, I woulden't write home about it.
(This post was edited by USnavy on Oct 30, 2010, 1:21 AM)
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bill413
Oct 30, 2010, 1:44 AM
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dbogardus wrote: Considering back clipping is one of the first things you should learn to prevent, I don't understand why you'd "not care". Does the tendency of the biner to twist actually decrease the likelihood of the rope unclipping?
It's one of the first things as a sport climber. Trad climbers have not considered it very important because they use longer, flexible slings. It's as USN says. If the biner is held by a stiff sling backclipping is a concern. If the biner can move, it is much less of one.
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cruxstacean
Oct 30, 2010, 5:08 PM
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p8ntballsk8r wrote: I understand back clipping and how to prevent it. My question is if I'm climbing up a crack/route where the bolts are on my right side, then the route moves to the right, farther than where the bolts were. Now the quickdraws are aligned as if they are backclipped, aren't they? Another similar scenario is an overhang where you must go to the left side of the bolt on your way up, but once you are past the overhang, the route wanders to the right, over and past the bolt you just clipped. I've looked down and seen what appeared to be a backclipped draw, however when I was climbing that part of the route, I did not backclip Hopefully that description makes sense, please let me know if I'm wrong, missing something, or need to do something differently
So has anybody every fallen on a back clipped draw and had the rope unclip? USA climbing comps allow climbers to backclip so some people think it is not particularly risky...
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currupt4130
Oct 31, 2010, 6:18 PM
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gosharks wrote: I don't really care if I am backclipping long slings, especially if they are the skinny dyneema kind.
I'm with you here. I clip them as they hang unless there's something obviously wrong with it like the way it's laying in a corner or the gate is more prone to hang on something. Then I just twist it the other way. If I'm really concerned then I flip the rope side biner over on my long slings (not that it always stays, but it makes me feel better.)
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bill413
Nov 1, 2010, 12:58 PM
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cruxstacean wrote: So has anybody every fallen on a back clipped draw and had the rope unclip? USA climbing comps allow climbers to backclip so some people think it is not particularly risky...
I have seen a draw rotate up & lodge in the bolt hanger so that all the force would lever the biner over the hanger - quite likely causing it to fail should the climber have fallen.
So, no, I've been lucky enough to not see someone unclip from this. I have seen a frightening potential from backclipping.
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JAB
Dec 7, 2010, 9:54 PM
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acorneau wrote: I found these in about 10 seconds... [image]http://www.greatoutdoors.com/files/imagecache/display/files/images/articles/backclip2.jpg[/image] [image]http://www.greatoutdoors.com/files/imagecache/display/files/images/articles/backclip1.jpg[/image]
Actually, I think those pictures are exactly the reason p8ntballsk8r and other gumbies get it wrong. They look at the pictures, and see "if rope goes over the spine = ok, if over the gate = backclip!". Petzl's picture keeps it simple and clear for even the most noob of noobs.
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billcoe_
Dec 8, 2010, 5:07 AM
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Always try to forward clip.
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justroberto
Dec 8, 2010, 4:57 PM
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cruxstacean wrote: So has anybody every fallen on a back clipped draw and had the rope unclip? USA climbing comps allow climbers to backclip so some people think it is not particularly risky...
Gumby 1 leads up, backclips, and then Gumbies 2, 3, and 4 on the ground start frantically yelling up at him that he's done so and he's going to die. Gumby 1 starts to freak out a little bit, can't figure out what he's done wrong. He starts sketching, and yet he still takes the rope back out of the draw in an attempt to correct his mistake, feet skittering and hands oozing off his holds in certain groundfall territory. Eventually he clips it back in and takes on the rope, only to have Gumbies 2, 3, and 4 yell up that he's still backclipped.
Now he's sitting there, pumped and looking completely dumbfounded while his his friends try to tell him how to fix it, all yelling up different ideas, confusing him further. He gets back on the rock, sketches hard, and unclips the rope from the draw again, and the cycle begins again.
Sadly, I actually saw this happen on a mid-11 route a few weeks ago. The kids shouted hilariously at each other for over an hour, with two of them attempting to fix it multiple times. Every time they tried, they fucked it up even worse.
I'll leave it up for debate which one is actually more dangerous - backclipping and not knowing it, or doing it and then trying to fix it.
(This post was edited by justroberto on Dec 8, 2010, 6:10 PM)
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rocknice2
Dec 8, 2010, 8:17 PM
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j_ung wrote: Besides, clipping correctly is so unbelievably easy...
Totally true.
There are only 2 clips. Gate facing towards you and gate facing away. each require a different technique. It's second nature like driving a 4 speed transmission. Nobody thinks 'push clutch, shit gear, release clutch'. You just slam it home.
I would have to try hard to backclip.
I guess there are 4 clips. Gate to & away and the mirror of that.
(This post was edited by rocknice2 on Dec 8, 2010, 8:21 PM)
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spikeddem
Dec 8, 2010, 8:22 PM
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rocknice2 wrote: Once you got it down it's like driving a 4 speed transmission going to the bathroom (?). Nobody thinks 'push clutch, shit gear, release clutch'. You just slam it home.
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rocknice2
Dec 9, 2010, 1:20 AM
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LOL
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LostinMaine
Dec 9, 2010, 1:30 PM
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rocknice2 wrote: Nobody thinks 'push clutch, shit gear, release clutch'. You just slam it home.
Made my morning. Thank you.
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jbro_135
Dec 10, 2010, 3:21 AM
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spikeddem wrote: rocknice2 wrote: Once you got it down it's like driving a 4 speed transmission going to the bathroom (?). Nobody thinks 'push clutch, shit gear, release clutch'. You just slam it home.
when you're on a wall you're constantly thinking about shit gear
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Colinhoglund
Dec 10, 2010, 6:53 AM
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rocknice2 wrote: Nobody thinks 'push clutch, shit gear, release clutch'. You just slam it home.
I've heard of shitting bricks, but thats something altogether new. All new meaning to the saying "pulling it out of your ass".
Frick I need another #3 . . .
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ablanchard17
Jul 24, 2011, 6:19 PM
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When you clip a piece of protection ( bolt or other ) the rope should be coming from the face of the rock out of the carabiner and to you
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patto
Jul 24, 2011, 6:47 PM
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dbogardus wrote: Considering back clipping is one of the first things you should learn to prevent, I don't understand why you'd "not care".
I would think that teaching sport climbers how to communicate and lower or rappel safely would be far more beneficial considering the number of accidents.
Teaching trad climbing back clipping is something I mention almost as an after thought. (Most of the people I teach trad, have never sport climbed.)
The most important thing is just to think "what is keeping me safe NOW". Following that thought if there is one biner between me and death I want it to be a screw gate.
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ceebo
Jul 24, 2011, 10:12 PM
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justroberto wrote: cruxstacean wrote: So has anybody every fallen on a back clipped draw and had the rope unclip? USA climbing comps allow climbers to backclip so some people think it is not particularly risky... I'm sure it happens once in a blue moon. You know what I see far more frequently? Gumby 1 leads up, backclips, and then Gumbies 2, 3, and 4 on the ground start frantically yelling up at him that he's done so and he's going to die. Gumby 1 starts to freak out a little bit, can't figure out what he's done wrong. He starts sketching, and yet he still takes the rope back out of the draw in an attempt to correct his mistake, feet skittering and hands oozing off his holds in certain groundfall territory. Eventually he clips it back in and takes on the rope, only to have Gumbies 2, 3, and 4 yell up that he's still backclipped. Now he's sitting there, pumped and looking completely dumbfounded while his his friends try to tell him how to fix it, all yelling up different ideas, confusing him further. He gets back on the rock, sketches hard, and unclips the rope from the draw again, and the cycle begins again. Sadly, I actually saw this happen on a mid-11 route a few weeks ago. The kids shouted hilariously at each other for over an hour, with two of them attempting to fix it multiple times. Every time they tried, they fucked it up even worse. I'll leave it up for debate which one is actually more dangerous - backclipping and not knowing it, or doing it and then trying to fix it.
If 4 kids were playing with a loaded gun would you just watch that too?.
Your the only gumby i see here...
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justroberto
Jul 25, 2011, 5:51 AM
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ceebo wrote: justroberto wrote: cruxstacean wrote: So has anybody every fallen on a back clipped draw and had the rope unclip? USA climbing comps allow climbers to backclip so some people think it is not particularly risky... I'm sure it happens once in a blue moon. You know what I see far more frequently? Gumby 1 leads up, backclips, and then Gumbies 2, 3, and 4 on the ground start frantically yelling up at him that he's done so and he's going to die. Gumby 1 starts to freak out a little bit, can't figure out what he's done wrong. He starts sketching, and yet he still takes the rope back out of the draw in an attempt to correct his mistake, feet skittering and hands oozing off his holds in certain groundfall territory. Eventually he clips it back in and takes on the rope, only to have Gumbies 2, 3, and 4 yell up that he's still backclipped. Now he's sitting there, pumped and looking completely dumbfounded while his his friends try to tell him how to fix it, all yelling up different ideas, confusing him further. He gets back on the rock, sketches hard, and unclips the rope from the draw again, and the cycle begins again. Sadly, I actually saw this happen on a mid-11 route a few weeks ago. The kids shouted hilariously at each other for over an hour, with two of them attempting to fix it multiple times. Every time they tried, they fucked it up even worse. I'll leave it up for debate which one is actually more dangerous - backclipping and not knowing it, or doing it and then trying to fix it. If 4 kids were playing with a loaded gun would you just watch that too?. Your the only gumby i see here...
Four things that never cease to amaze me:
1) Responses to seven-month old posts;
2) Wholly-irrelevant-analogy posts;
3) The combination of items 1 and 2.
4) Idiotic misunderstanding of the blatant difference between "your" and "you're", despite the pedantic objections of half the people on the internets.
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patto
Jul 25, 2011, 9:26 AM
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ceebo wrote: If 4 kids were playing with a loaded gun would you just watch that too?. Your the only gumby i see here...
justroberto wrote: I'll leave it up for debate which one is actually more dangerous - backclipping and not knowing it, or doing it and then trying to fix it.
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JoeHamilton
Jul 25, 2011, 3:23 PM
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justroberto wrote: ceebo wrote: justroberto wrote: cruxstacean wrote: So has anybody every fallen on a back clipped draw and had the rope unclip? USA climbing comps allow climbers to backclip so some people think it is not particularly risky... I'm sure it happens once in a blue moon. You know what I see far more frequently? Gumby 1 leads up, backclips, and then Gumbies 2, 3, and 4 on the ground start frantically yelling up at him that he's done so and he's going to die. Gumby 1 starts to freak out a little bit, can't figure out what he's done wrong. He starts sketching, and yet he still takes the rope back out of the draw in an attempt to correct his mistake, feet skittering and hands oozing off his holds in certain groundfall territory. Eventually he clips it back in and takes on the rope, only to have Gumbies 2, 3, and 4 yell up that he's still backclipped. Now he's sitting there, pumped and looking completely dumbfounded while his his friends try to tell him how to fix it, all yelling up different ideas, confusing him further. He gets back on the rock, sketches hard, and unclips the rope from the draw again, and the cycle begins again. Sadly, I actually saw this happen on a mid-11 route a few weeks ago. The kids shouted hilariously at each other for over an hour, with two of them attempting to fix it multiple times. Every time they tried, they fucked it up even worse. I'll leave it up for debate which one is actually more dangerous - backclipping and not knowing it, or doing it and then trying to fix it. If 4 kids were playing with a loaded gun would you just watch that too?. Your the only gumby i see here... Four things that never cease to amaze me: 1) Responses to seven-month old posts; 2) Wholly-irrelevant-analogy posts; 3) The combination of items 1 and 2. 4) Idiotic misunderstanding of the blatant difference between "your" and "you're", despite the pedantic objections of half the people on the internets.
Responding the the list at bottom,1)some of us just want to learn so we read and inadvertently post,or see the NEW tab pop up and it gets the thread going again. 4) ahhhh, so I am not the only one with poor grammar and spelling around here,cool.thanx for using 4 to show example of 2.
Seriously this thread was very informative for me, I would agree if I am two bolts past the one I see is wrong, I would trust the last two and not lower down to fix the one bad. I try my best to take a second and double check before moving on, a lot like anticipating a fall direction
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