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esander4


Nov 7, 2010, 4:42 PM
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Additions to rack?
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Hello, I'm new to the rock climbing forums. I was just wondering if any of you trad climbers could give me any additions they think would be good for my rack. I started tradding about a year ago, and finally getting a decent rack. I climb mostly in Poudre Canyon, Colorado/Estes Park, Colorado and Rocky Mountain National Park, Colorado. Sometimes at Golden Cliffs in Colorado. Here's the rack:

#0 Metolius Ultralight TCU
#1 Metolius MasterCam
#2 Metolius Fat Cam
#3 Metolius Power Cam
#4 Metolius TCU
#5 Metolius Fat Cam
#1 Wild Country Tech Friend
#1.5 Wild Country Tech Friend (older models of 1 and 1.5 friends, family cams passed from father to son, recently reslung)
#7 Trango Flex Cam
#.75 Black Diamond Camalot (older style, another family cam)
#1 Black Diamond c4 Camalot
#2 Black Diamond c4 Camalot
#3 Black Diamond c4 Camalot
#6 Black Diamond c4 Camalot
A range of BD nuts and hexes (about 25 of them)
2 60 cm Metolius Nylon Slings
2 120 cm Metolius Nylon Slings
15 BD quicksilver quickdraws (dogbones replaced with various sizes of Petzl dogbones)

And then the basics, Mammut harness, 2 60m New England Equinox ropes, lots of non-locking and locking carabiners, 2 belay devices and assortments of sizes of 1 inch webbing.


Any suggestions for add ons to the rack? I went trad climbing last week and felt like I didn't have enough gear for more than a 60 ft or so pitch. I usually climb what most people do in 4-5 pitches, and it takes me 8-9 pitches and a lot more time. I'm trying to add a little gear to avoid this, but i don't know what.


Colinhoglund


Nov 7, 2010, 4:57 PM
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esander4 wrote:
Hello, I'm new to the rock climbing forums. I was just wondering if any of you trad climbers could give me any additions they think would be good for my rack. I started tradding about a year ago, and finally getting a decent rack. I climb mostly in Poudre Canyon, Colorado/Estes Park, Colorado and Rocky Mountain National Park, Colorado. Sometimes at Golden Cliffs in Colorado. Here's the rack:

#0 Metolius Ultralight TCU
#1 Metolius MasterCam
#2 Metolius Fat Cam
#3 Metolius Power Cam
#4 Metolius TCU
#5 Metolius Fat Cam
#1 Wild Country Tech Friend
#1.5 Wild Country Tech Friend (older models of 1 and 1.5 friends, family cams passed from father to son, recently reslung)
#7 Trango Flex Cam
#.75 Black Diamond Camalot (older style, another family cam)
#1 Black Diamond c4 Camalot
#2 Black Diamond c4 Camalot
#3 Black Diamond c4 Camalot
#6 Black Diamond c4 Camalot
A range of BD nuts and hexes (about 25 of them)
2 60 cm Metolius Nylon Slings
2 120 cm Metolius Nylon Slings
15 BD quicksilver quickdraws (dogbones replaced with various sizes of Petzl dogbones)

And then the basics, Mammut harness, 2 60m New England Equinox ropes, lots of non-locking and locking carabiners, 2 belay devices and assortments of sizes of 1 inch webbing.


Any suggestions for add ons to the rack? I went trad climbing last week and felt like I didn't have enough gear for more than a 60 ft or so pitch. I usually climb what most people do in 4-5 pitches, and it takes me 8-9 pitches and a lot more time. I'm trying to add a little gear to avoid this, but i don't know what.

Hummm. . . You have quite the "standard rack", most people could do most things with that rack (not withstanding places like the creek). Either one of two things. Your areas may need a larger amount of certain sizes. If so, take note of what your running out of and get more of those. That failing, get more creative with placements. Think 'what are the easy pieces to place for this route" and try to place every other size first.

Or . . . you need to start placing less gear per pitch. Place less when there is a clean fall or not cruxy. When I look back at how I protected a route, I often see more gear at the crux and much less elsewhere. Think about placing less but better pieces. Id rather have a A+ piece every 8' then a C- every 4'. Hope that helps.


(This post was edited by Colinhoglund on Nov 7, 2010, 4:57 PM)


bill413


Nov 7, 2010, 5:29 PM
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Re: [Colinhoglund] Additions to rack? [In reply to]
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25 nuts. And all those cams. You don't need more gear. You need to think of placing the nuts first, and only if you can't, then place the cams.

Also - dogbones are not good slings for trad - they tend to transmit too much rope motion & torque to the gear placements. Slings are better. So, if you're dying to spend money on your rack, invest in slings (standard shoulder length - you can triple them if you want for carrying).


climbingaggie03


Nov 7, 2010, 7:00 PM
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I'd add some doubles, mostly in the .75 - 3 camalot range (though not necessarily camalots. Maybe a link cam or two and some metolius cams in that range. I also like to have doubles of small cams like yellow and orange metolius.

To specifically know which pieces to buy, I'd look at which pieces you place most, and what size the cracks are when you find you really wish you had a piece, but already placed it.


bill413


Nov 7, 2010, 7:25 PM
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climbingaggie03 wrote:
I'd add some doubles, mostly in the .75 - 3 camalot range (though not necessarily camalots. Maybe a link cam or two and some metolius cams in that range. I also like to have doubles of small cams like yellow and orange metolius.

To specifically know which pieces to buy, I'd look at which pieces you place most, and what size the cracks are when you find you really wish you had a piece, but already placed it.

39 pieces on his rack, and not enough for 60 feet? I really don't think doubling up on random cams will help.


(This post was edited by bill413 on Nov 7, 2010, 7:25 PM)


Colinhoglund


Nov 7, 2010, 8:16 PM
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39 pieces on his rack, and not enough for 60 feet? I really don't think doubling up on random cams will help.

Didn't see 60 feet, I guess my mind converted that to meters.

Op, you need to start spacing out your gear better, or be more creative and heed the advice above, place nuts first then cams.

Also,see this photo.


and this quote from "evanwish", he says it very well.

"this is a picture i took one day cragging and on a lunch break. I like this because it demonstrates to new climbers how if you can't find a piece/placement you're looking for, just look around and you'll find something else. (i've noticed that new climbers will just pick a spot and pray they have gear for that exact spot, as opposed to seeing what gear you have in excess and seeing if that can coincide with the general area where you need gear) Above the frame of the picture is a #5, #6, #9, and big bro #4 and below it fit a bunch of smaller gear. "

If your running out of gear in 60 feet your doing something wrong.


TarHeelEMT


Nov 7, 2010, 8:26 PM
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You should NOT be running out of gear with that rack on a 100' pitch, let alone 60'. Either you're placing protection way too close together or, more likely, you're overlooking placements for which you have gear. If you add much more, you'll be carrying a big wall rack, not a trad rack.

The only gear suggestion I have is to ditch the dogbone quickdraws and get more 60cm slings. If you use draws at all, they should be of the most flexible variety possible. Ironically, the longer quicksilver draws are vastly superior to the Petzl dogbones for just this reason.


climbingaggie03


Nov 7, 2010, 8:27 PM
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bill413 wrote:
climbingaggie03 wrote:
I'd add some doubles, mostly in the .75 - 3 camalot range (though not necessarily camalots. Maybe a link cam or two and some metolius cams in that range. I also like to have doubles of small cams like yellow and orange metolius.

To specifically know which pieces to buy, I'd look at which pieces you place most, and what size the cracks are when you find you really wish you had a piece, but already placed it.

39 pieces on his rack, and not enough for 60 feet? I really don't think doubling up on random cams will help.

I don't disagree that he should probably work on spacing his pieces and looking for more creative placements, but he's carrying too many nuts, and he's only carrying 10 or 11 cams without very much overlap (I think) (I don't count the trango or wc cams cause I'd bet they don't place well/inspire much confidence)

With 10 cams, placing them every 8 feet, that's only 80 feet of climbing, that's asking him to place 12 nuts per 200 foot pitch. I think placing nuts is great, it's satisfying to find a good nut placement and very comforting, but it's not very conducive to speed. Also I don't mind placing a nut when I see a good placement but I don't think I've ever placed 12 nuts in 1 pitch, that's more than a whole set of nuts.

And then there's the need for extra gear for anchors.


TarHeelEMT


Nov 7, 2010, 9:44 PM
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climbingaggie03 wrote:
bill413 wrote:
climbingaggie03 wrote:
I'd add some doubles, mostly in the .75 - 3 camalot range (though not necessarily camalots. Maybe a link cam or two and some metolius cams in that range. I also like to have doubles of small cams like yellow and orange metolius.

To specifically know which pieces to buy, I'd look at which pieces you place most, and what size the cracks are when you find you really wish you had a piece, but already placed it.

39 pieces on his rack, and not enough for 60 feet? I really don't think doubling up on random cams will help.

I don't disagree that he should probably work on spacing his pieces and looking for more creative placements, but he's carrying too many nuts, and he's only carrying 10 or 11 cams without very much overlap (I think) (I don't count the trango or wc cams cause I'd bet they don't place well/inspire much confidence)

With 10 cams, placing them every 8 feet, that's only 80 feet of climbing, that's asking him to place 12 nuts per 200 foot pitch. I think placing nuts is great, it's satisfying to find a good nut placement and very comforting, but it's not very conducive to speed. Also I don't mind placing a nut when I see a good placement but I don't think I've ever placed 12 nuts in 1 pitch, that's more than a whole set of nuts.

And then there's the need for extra gear for anchors.

Nonsense. They're fine cams. I've climbed on both many times and own some of the Trangos. He's in the range of 13-14 cams depending on whether or not he drags the #6 camalot with him. 13 is about as many cams as I ever carry unless I'm doing an aid route.


esander4


Nov 7, 2010, 10:39 PM
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Thanks for the info. In theory yes, I do have enough gear for a long pitch. But I end up running into a few problems along the way.

1.) This is the least important since I do it anyway, but i just don't feel that confident in a nut taking a fall regardless of what everyone says. I guess I'll just have to take a fall on one eventually to get over that, but i don't like to place them too often

2.) I try to save 5 cams for the anchor. Yes I know, you only use 3 cams for the anchor, but when I can't see the cracks I'll be using for my belay, I want options. I don't want to get up to the belay point with only 3 cams just to find out the only 1 or 2 will fit the crack

3.) Some of my cams just don't place on my routes. I have hardly every used my #0 TCU and #1 MasterCam. And my Fat Cams are sometimes just plain hard to place. I like to use them as belay cams, but along the route if i set them at a downward angle sometimes the cracks are too shallow

I also know I might place too often. But sometimes i'll barely place at all depending on my last placement. If I ever get a chance to place my #3 or #6 BD cams solidly, I might purposely not place gear for 25 feet or so (depending on how far above the ground I am of course, I won't do it unless I'm pretty high up). I feel really confident in those cams and I know I can save on gear by trusting them

As for the comments about the slings on my draws, thanks for the info.

And TarHeelEMT, you're right about the Trango and WC cams. I've taken 2 falls on my Trango and I know i might get shot for saying this but I like it much better than placing my BD #2. They feel really solid.


vegastradguy


Nov 8, 2010, 12:08 AM
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dump the hexes, double up on cams below .75 camalot and get a 4" piece, lose anything bigger and you'll be good to go.

also, if you dont like placing stoppers- dont lug 25 of them up routes. thats a waste of weight and resources. that said, id strongly suggest you get over that fear, as good nutcraft is an essential skill that will save your ass one day.


MS1


Nov 8, 2010, 6:30 AM
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esander4 wrote:
Thanks for the info. In theory yes, I do have enough gear for a long pitch. But I end up running into a few problems along the way.

1.) This is the least important since I do it anyway, but i just don't feel that confident in a nut taking a fall regardless of what everyone says. I guess I'll just have to take a fall on one eventually to get over that, but i don't like to place them too often

2.) I try to save 5 cams for the anchor. Yes I know, you only use 3 cams for the anchor, but when I can't see the cracks I'll be using for my belay, I want options. I don't want to get up to the belay point with only 3 cams just to find out the only 1 or 2 will fit the crack

3.) Some of my cams just don't place on my routes. I have hardly every used my #0 TCU and #1 MasterCam. And my Fat Cams are sometimes just plain hard to place. I like to use them as belay cams, but along the route if i set them at a downward angle sometimes the cracks are too shallow

I also know I might place too often. But sometimes i'll barely place at all depending on my last placement. If I ever get a chance to place my #3 or #6 BD cams solidly, I might purposely not place gear for 25 feet or so (depending on how far above the ground I am of course, I won't do it unless I'm pretty high up). I feel really confident in those cams and I know I can save on gear by trusting them

As for the comments about the slings on my draws, thanks for the info.

And TarHeelEMT, you're right about the Trango and WC cams. I've taken 2 falls on my Trango and I know i might get shot for saying this but I like it much better than placing my BD #2. They feel really solid.

Get a set of the most common tricams (.25-2, and maybe the 3 and 4 if those sizes work well where you climb). Use those instead of cams to build anchors with. That way you can place your cams as you climb, and run out of pieces less often. The tricams will weigh much less, and cost much less, than the equivalent additional cams.

(The above assumes that tricams work well on your local rock. If this is not the case, disregard my advice.)

If you don't trust your nut placements to hold a fall, you really need to work on your nutcraft.

And if it were me, I'd be trying to swap the fatcam and powercam for the same size of mastercams or tcus. At least at the places where I've climbed, small piacements are often easier to get with a narrower head-width of cam. Might help with your bottoming placement problem.


petsfed


Nov 8, 2010, 7:19 AM
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esander4 wrote:
2.) I try to save 5 cams for the anchor. Yes I know, you only use 3 cams for the anchor, but when I can't see the cracks I'll be using for my belay, I want options. I don't want to get up to the belay point with only 3 cams just to find out the only 1 or 2 will fit the crack

Learn to improvise. Learn to trust nuts. One of the most satisfying experiences of my trad climbing career was to struggle up a long pitch, only to find myself at the belay with 4 nuts and a cam left on my rack. That I could still build a good anchor with just that meant that I'd really learned how to place gear.

I have 36 cams. Usually I carry only 8 cams (the average pitch is only about 50 feet here) plus a set of nuts. My onsight-do-anything rack has twice as many cams. There's a lesson here: if you can't place nuts, you've cut the effective size of your rack in half.


jeepnphreak


Nov 8, 2010, 9:12 AM
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esander4 wrote:

Any suggestions for add ons to the rack? I went trad climbing last week and felt like I didn't have enough gear for more than a 60 ft or so pitch. I usually climb what most people do in 4-5 pitches, and it takes me 8-9 pitches and a lot more time. I'm trying to add a little gear to avoid this, but i don't know what.

OK I know its a bit nerve-racking to climb much above you last piece of pro. But try to get at least your feet past the last piece you placed before placing another piece. For a 60 foot pitch I plan on placing 6 to up to 10 pieces at most. my rack is half of what you have, and there are a lot of 160+ foot pitches around. so my suggestion is try to climb a above you pro, falling is OK.
Besides if you are placing gear every two feet you will take all day to get up any thing, and are going to have one pissed belayer.


brokesomeribs


Nov 8, 2010, 11:02 AM
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esander4 wrote:
Thanks for the info. In theory yes, I do have enough gear for a long pitch. But I end up running into a few problems along the way.

1.) This is the least important since I do it anyway, but i just don't feel that confident in a nut taking a fall regardless of what everyone says. I guess I'll just have to take a fall on one eventually to get over that, but i don't like to place them too often

Find someone who's been climbing since the 80's. Or just any regular schmuck who happens to be a solid climber with good gear skills and has at least a couple years of climbing under his belt. Offer a six pack to go out climbing with him for the day. Ask him to work with you on nut placements.

Nothing, and I mean nothing makes me feel all warm fuzzy like seeing a bomber nut way below me. Even a bolt has an element of unknown about it, but a good nut you placed yourself in good rock is about as solid as it gets.


esander4


Nov 8, 2010, 12:02 PM
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It's not that i don't have skill placing nuts or can't place a nut. It's that I don't like placing them. I think you all misunderstood me. If it comes to the option of placing a cam or a nut, I'll place a cam 99% of the time. I just struggle with being comfortable that a nut will take my fall. I've used a nut as an anchor once, I'm thoroughly satisfied it will take my weight statically. But I would just rather place a cam than a nut when given the option, which makes me run out of gear.

I don't really have a problem with overplacing gear. I'll usually place about every 8 to 10 feet.

And overall my problem isn't running out of gear. It's running out of the right kind of gear. When I end up setting my anchor, I'll still have a few pieces of gear left over, but none that would fit higher up to make a decent anchor.'

As for tricams, well I've never placed a tricam before, nor do i know if the place i rock climb would take a tricam. Also, they're kind of expensive

I bring that many nuts along also for my partner. I have a consistent partner I go with (my brother, but guess who didn't want to buy a rack?) and we switch leads. But where I climb, a lot of the crack are parallel or flaring, not really a lot of options for nut placements. Occasionally there will be one though

(This post was edited by esander4 on Nov 8, 2010, 12:07 PM)


petsfed


Nov 8, 2010, 12:13 PM
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esander4 wrote:
And overall my problem isn't running out of gear. It's running out of the right kind of gear. When I end up setting my anchor, I'll still have a few pieces of gear left over, but none that would fit higher up to make a decent anchor.

Can't place nuts, won't place nuts, the punch line is the same: nuts aren't placed. And if you find that you are running out of the right kind of gear for the end of the pitch, then you really are running out of gear. And if you can't or won't place nuts, then you have effectively cut the size of your rack in two, but you're still carrying all that weight. Where do you climb anyway?


ckirkwood9


Nov 8, 2010, 12:44 PM
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brokesomeribs wrote:
a good nut you placed yourself in good rock is about as solid as it gets.

agreed.... curious though - have any of you seen the recent post on "guess the quality of gear placements" (or something like that).

A guy posted a bunch of pics of active/passive pro, you were able to guess the quality of the placement, and after your guess, he'd reveal the outcome of a load placed on the piece.

i was surprised at results of load applied to one or 2 of the nut placements


bill413


Nov 8, 2010, 12:46 PM
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esander4 wrote:
It's not that i don't have skill placing nuts or can't place a nut. It's that I don't like placing them. I think you all misunderstood me. If it comes to the option of placing a cam or a nut, I'll place a cam 99% of the time. I just struggle with being comfortable that a nut will take my fall. I've used a nut as an anchor once, I'm thoroughly satisfied it will take my weight statically. But I would just rather place a cam than a nut when given the option, which makes me run out of gear.

A nut has no moving parts; cams are complex assemblies. I have not heard of a nut "breaking" in the last 15 years. I have heard af (and seen) broken cams.

I'd worry that if you don't like/trust placing nuts, you're probably not inspecting your cam placements. Plug & go sure feels nice, but you really need to apply the same judgment & evaluation to cams as you do nuts.

Don't get me wrong - I get the warm fuzzies from a well placed cam; especially if stressed. But bomber nuts are as strong as the rock.

In reply to:
And overall my problem isn't running out of gear. It's running out of the right kind of gear. When I end up setting my anchor, I'll still have a few pieces of gear left over, but none that would fit higher up to make a decent anchor.'

I've occasionally not had gear and placements to make an anchor I really liked. But, if you're arriving at your belay with a full set of nuts I'm surprised at no opportunities.

In reply to:
As for tricams, well I've never placed a tricam before, nor do i know if the place i rock climb would take a tricam. Also, they're kind of expensive

You won't like them. They're harder to judge than nuts, and take longer to place than cams.
Great things, but it doesn't sound like they'll work for you.

In reply to:
But where I climb, a lot of the crack are parallel or flaring, not really a lot of options for nut placements. Occasionally there will be one though

Flaring cracks - tough to get any gear - even cams can be suspect, but they may well be the best choice.
Parallel cracks - yeah, cams. But nuts (and hexes) will work better than you think.

Check inside the cracks. Also, what do others in your area do?


vegastradguy


Nov 8, 2010, 12:51 PM
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esander4 wrote:
And overall my problem isn't running out of gear. It's running out of the right kind of gear. When I end up setting my anchor, I'll still have a few pieces of gear left over, but none that would fit higher up to make a decent anchor.'

and yet you're still here, which means you probably worked out something and will probably keep working out things even if you dont buy more gear.

i have to say, in all the years ive been climbing, with all the racks i've used- small, large, my gear, others gear, gear im completely unfamiliar with, etc, etc, i've never once not been able to build an adequate anchor because i used the key piece on the pitch below. sometimes its been a real challenge, sometimes it means a hanging belay above or below a nice ledge (really rare), and sometimes it means recognizing what a 'good' anchor means for the given situation, and that isnt always gear in the rock.

part of the gear game is figuring out how to get it done with the tools you have at hand.


bearbreeder


Nov 8, 2010, 1:05 PM
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you absolutely must learn to place nuts ... not only does it save weight and yr cams ... they also work where cams wont

also consider the fact that for you anchor, you may be able to get away with a bit less until yr second comes up with all the gear ... then you can beef it up for belay ... this of course requires experience and good judgement

you definately dont need the piece to prevent upward pull till yr second comes up ...

i remember the first time i made an alpine trad anchor with 3 downward and 1 upward piece ... everyone just started laughing cause i used up half the alpine rack ... lol


esander4


Nov 8, 2010, 1:17 PM
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Yeah you're right. I might just go place a nut on the first pitch sometime and just jump off about 5 feet above so I can do it and get it over with (cam right below for some back up). That would help me with that mental block.

I've seen some others in the area I climb do slings around small flakes. But I want to get dyneema slings before I do that, and some of the flakes are so small i feel like in a fall they would just slip off. Last weekend when I went climbing the group before me only had about 7-8 nuts and all the rest cams (and a few ball nuts).

I don't think I'll spend the money on tricams. I have an old SMC camlock i got off of a route i climbed in Tennessee (my old home) but I have yet to place it after I reslung it. I may just sell it off


TarHeelEMT


Nov 8, 2010, 1:23 PM
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esander4 wrote:
It's not that i don't have skill placing nuts or can't place a nut. It's that I don't like placing them. I think you all misunderstood me. If it comes to the option of placing a cam or a nut, I'll place a cam 99% of the time. I just struggle with being comfortable that a nut will take my fall. I've used a nut as an anchor once, I'm thoroughly satisfied it will take my weight statically. But I would just rather place a cam than a nut when given the option, which makes me run out of gear.

Well, there's your problem. If you're at a good stance and have the choice between a good nut and a good cam, place the nut and save the cam for when you need it.

Cams are more versatile, so use the specific gear when you can to keep your options open for higher up when you have to take what you can get. Using a cam in a bomber nut placement is a waste of resources.


bill413


Nov 8, 2010, 4:34 PM
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esander4 wrote:
Yeah you're right. I might just go place a nut on the first pitch sometime and just jump off about 5 feet above so I can do it and get it over with (cam right below for some back up). That would help me with that mental block.

I've seen some others in the area I climb do slings around small flakes. But I want to get dyneema slings before I do that, and some of the flakes are so small i feel like in a fall they would just slip off. Last weekend when I went climbing the group before me only had about 7-8 nuts and all the rest cams (and a few ball nuts).

I don't think I'll spend the money on tricams. I have an old SMC camlock i got off of a route i climbed in Tennessee (my old home) but I have yet to place it after I reslung it. I may just sell it off

I'm a heavy tricam user - and even I don't like camlocks. There's a reason they aren't in the climbing stores.
They will hold in good placements, but they tend to fall out easily. I'd suggest staying away from them.


lithiummetalman


Nov 8, 2010, 6:00 PM
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vegastradguy wrote:
dump the hexes, double up on cams below .75 camalot and get a 4" piece, lose anything bigger and you'll be good to go.

also, if you dont like placing stoppers- dont lug 25 of them up routes. thats a waste of weight and resources. that said, id strongly suggest you get over that fear, as good nutcraft is an essential skill that will save your ass one day.

Ditto.

Make it even simpler:

-Double set of BD cams .5-3"
-Double set of of microcams (BD, Metolius, or Aliens if u can find them!)
-#4 BD
-Single set of nuts
-10 trad draws
-96" sling

Find a consistent rack is easier to sort, keep track off, and one less thing to worry about when it comes to sizing, sure there are cons of not having that EXACT right size piece, but I would say 90% of the time you will have something that WILL fit.

Only pick up / borrow Specialty gear if you know you will be hitting up a particular climb that requires 3 # BD5, or extra slings.

Just make sure that you're comfortable and proficient placing all your gear, learn tricks to maximize the usage, double duty if you can, not only does this keep the system simpler, but can be incredibly useful in times when situations are less than ideal!

Cheers and safe climbing!!!


(This post was edited by lithiummetalman on Nov 8, 2010, 6:03 PM)


petsfed


Nov 8, 2010, 6:37 PM
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All right, checking your first post, and your profile, you really, REALLY need to up your proficiency with placing nuts. I love Lumpy, and the granite in the rest of RMNP is better than that when it comes to placing nuts. Lumpy takes nuts better than cams, I've found. When I climb at lumpy, I tend to carry double sets of cams when I climb, and I still run out of nuts before I run out of cams. Its frustrating, because I don't really feel secure on an anchor unless one of the pieces is a bomber nut. Like I look for a good stance instead of putting that much weight on an anchor if I can't get a nut.


esander4


Nov 8, 2010, 7:08 PM
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petsfed wrote:
All right, checking your first post, and your profile, you really, REALLY need to up your proficiency with placing nuts. I love Lumpy, and the granite in the rest of RMNP is better than that when it comes to placing nuts. Lumpy takes nuts better than cams, I've found. When I climb at lumpy, I tend to carry double sets of cams when I climb, and I still run out of nuts before I run out of cams. Its frustrating, because I don't really feel secure on an anchor unless one of the pieces is a bomber nut. Like I look for a good stance instead of putting that much weight on an anchor if I can't get a nut.

You really use that many nuts at Lumpy? In 2 consecutive weekends I climbed Batman and Robin on Batman's Pinnacle and Kor's Flake. When I was doing both the routes, it felt like all of the cracks I was following were flaring or parallel. Like occasionally I would look to the left and right and think "oh there would be a good spot to place a nut" but it was off route and impossible to get to from where I was. On Batman and Robin, on the route I found 8 or 9 places to put nuts. One of them was a belay station.

If you're ever back in the area, I want to try either Osiris or White Whale at Lumpy and would love a new partner


petsfed


Nov 8, 2010, 8:02 PM
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esander4 wrote:
petsfed wrote:
All right, checking your first post, and your profile, you really, REALLY need to up your proficiency with placing nuts. I love Lumpy, and the granite in the rest of RMNP is better than that when it comes to placing nuts. Lumpy takes nuts better than cams, I've found. When I climb at lumpy, I tend to carry double sets of cams when I climb, and I still run out of nuts before I run out of cams. Its frustrating, because I don't really feel secure on an anchor unless one of the pieces is a bomber nut. Like I look for a good stance instead of putting that much weight on an anchor if I can't get a nut.

You really use that many nuts at Lumpy? In 2 consecutive weekends I climbed Batman and Robin on Batman's Pinnacle and Kor's Flake. When I was doing both the routes, it felt like all of the cracks I was following were flaring or parallel. Like occasionally I would look to the left and right and think "oh there would be a good spot to place a nut" but it was off route and impossible to get to from where I was. On Batman and Robin, on the route I found 8 or 9 places to put nuts. One of them was a belay station.

If you're ever back in the area, I want to try either Osiris or White Whale at Lumpy and would love a new partner

Osiris loves nuts. You've just got to keep your eyes open. But be sure to pack a #4 camalot, and bring an offwidthing sensibility. Also, don't get lost after the third pitch. We got benighted and ended up doing some pretty hairy climbing to get out.

Also, I tried to do White Whale, on a tuesday, and it still had 3 parties on it. Cackle Crack is pretty good, runs the gamut from fists to fingers, I used a good medley on it.

I'll keep you in mind the next time I make it down. I hear Lumpy stays ok through the winter. I dunno, I only swing tools in the park between December and April.


spikeddem


Nov 8, 2010, 8:02 PM
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esander4 wrote:
Yeah you're right. I might just go place a nut on the first pitch sometime and just jump off about 5 feet above so I can do it and get it over with (cam right below for some back up). That would help me with that mental block.

OK, I don't care if I'm GU'd or trolled, but THIS is not a good idea. It is absolutely not the way to approach your fear.


spikeddem


Nov 8, 2010, 8:21 PM
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spikeddem wrote:
esander4 wrote:
Yeah you're right. I might just go place a nut on the first pitch sometime and just jump off about 5 feet above so I can do it and get it over with (cam right below for some back up). That would help me with that mental block.

OK, I don't care if I'm GU'd or trolled, but THIS is not a good idea. It is absolutely not the way to approach your fear.

Continuing on (wanted to finish reading the thread first)...

Thoughts

1) Do some aid climbing
2) Bounce test pieces on the ground
3) If you really want to whip on to your passive protection, do so HIGH up on the pitch and AWAY from ledges. Do not purposely whip on gear low to the ground for learning purpose, in my opinion. Promise me you'll have at least two pieces preventing you from hitting the ground. If your knot is, say, 45 feet up, you may try having a cam (your request) at 35, a nut at 39, and another nut at 40.

I'm pretty nervous about recommending anything though, since nobody on this board can determine if your fear is rightfully founded! Having a good lead head is not about being fearless. It is about identifying rational fear and irrational fear and handling each one in an appropriate way.


esander4


Nov 8, 2010, 8:37 PM
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spikeddem wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
esander4 wrote:
Yeah you're right. I might just go place a nut on the first pitch sometime and just jump off about 5 feet above so I can do it and get it over with (cam right below for some back up). That would help me with that mental block.

OK, I don't care if I'm GU'd or trolled, but THIS is not a good idea. It is absolutely not the way to approach your fear.

Continuing on (wanted to finish reading the thread first)...

Thoughts

1) Do some aid climbing
2) Bounce test pieces on the ground
3) If you really want to whip on to your passive protection, do so HIGH up on the pitch and AWAY from ledges. Do not purposely whip on gear low to the ground for learning purpose, in my opinion. Promise me you'll have at least two pieces preventing you from hitting the ground. If your knot is, say, 45 feet up, you may try having a cam (your request) at 35, a nut at 39, and another nut at 40.

I'm pretty nervous about recommending anything though, since nobody on this board can determine if your fear is rightfully founded! Having a good lead head is not about being fearless. It is about identifying rational fear and irrational fear and handling each one in an appropriate way.

I wish I could do aid. I don't have the gear for it nor do I know of anybody who does aid. But, if you're offering.......

Yeah I definitely wasn't going to try a whipper close to the ground. Like maybe second pitch, 4 to 5 pieces of pro up (making sure there are no ledges) I place a cam, then about a foot up another cam, and then a nut barely above that and climb up about to where my shins are level with the nut and then fall.

My fear comes from never having fallen on a nut (again, i do think I'm pretty proficient at placing nuts so that's not it). Remember that feeling before you ever fell on just a sport route? (I do anyway, I was flippin terrified) Before you fell it was scary, but after you took your first lead fall everything seemed okay. That's kinda how it is I think. I just need to do it and get it over with.


esander4


Nov 8, 2010, 8:45 PM
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petsfed wrote:
esander4 wrote:
petsfed wrote:
All right, checking your first post, and your profile, you really, REALLY need to up your proficiency with placing nuts. I love Lumpy, and the granite in the rest of RMNP is better than that when it comes to placing nuts. Lumpy takes nuts better than cams, I've found. When I climb at lumpy, I tend to carry double sets of cams when I climb, and I still run out of nuts before I run out of cams. Its frustrating, because I don't really feel secure on an anchor unless one of the pieces is a bomber nut. Like I look for a good stance instead of putting that much weight on an anchor if I can't get a nut.

You really use that many nuts at Lumpy? In 2 consecutive weekends I climbed Batman and Robin on Batman's Pinnacle and Kor's Flake. When I was doing both the routes, it felt like all of the cracks I was following were flaring or parallel. Like occasionally I would look to the left and right and think "oh there would be a good spot to place a nut" but it was off route and impossible to get to from where I was. On Batman and Robin, on the route I found 8 or 9 places to put nuts. One of them was a belay station.

If you're ever back in the area, I want to try either Osiris or White Whale at Lumpy and would love a new partner

Osiris loves nuts. You've just got to keep your eyes open. But be sure to pack a #4 camalot, and bring an offwidthing sensibility. Also, don't get lost after the third pitch. We got benighted and ended up doing some pretty hairy climbing to get out.

Also, I tried to do White Whale, on a tuesday, and it still had 3 parties on it. Cackle Crack is pretty good, runs the gamut from fists to fingers, I used a good medley on it.

I'll keep you in mind the next time I make it down. I hear Lumpy stays ok through the winter. I dunno, I only swing tools in the park between December and April.

Well it's November and Colorado is about 70 degrees and sunny this week...it's freakin beautiful. I'm dying to go climbing again before the snow kicks in.

I don't think it's the routes I need to be worried about at lumpy, it's the backtracking back to the parking lot at the end of the day. The approaches are ridiculous (can you tell I absolutely hate hiking?) and when we were walking back from B and R we did it in the dark. Ended up accidentally walking down a hunting trail after the cairns ended right after the boulder field and came out a mile down the road the goes up to the parking lot.

I want to see if I can make my own route at lumpy. It's way to big to just stick with the classics.

Have you ever been to The Palace in Poudre Canyon? Mostly sport there but a bit of single to double pitch trad. Vertical climbing instead of the slab climbing Lumpy offers, I like it a little better


spikeddem


Nov 8, 2010, 8:53 PM
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esander4 wrote:
My fear comes from never having fallen on a nut (again, i do think I'm pretty proficient at placing nuts so that's not it). Remember that feeling before you ever fell on just a sport route? (I do anyway, I was flippin terrified) Before you fell it was scary, but after you took your first lead fall everything seemed okay. That's kinda how it is I think. I just need to do it and get it over with.

Hmmm. I mean, I see what you're trying to communicate here, but if you really understand what's going on with nuts and their placements, then I don't understand why you'd have to have actually been caught by one. Being caught by one doesn't mean you make good placements. There's a certain probability that you'll happen to fall on one that just happens to be good that time.

I assume you've fallen on a cam then, since you don't have the same fear?


esander4


Nov 8, 2010, 9:39 PM
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spikeddem wrote:
esander4 wrote:
My fear comes from never having fallen on a nut (again, i do think I'm pretty proficient at placing nuts so that's not it). Remember that feeling before you ever fell on just a sport route? (I do anyway, I was flippin terrified) Before you fell it was scary, but after you took your first lead fall everything seemed okay. That's kinda how it is I think. I just need to do it and get it over with.

Hmmm. I mean, I see what you're trying to communicate here, but if you really understand what's going on with nuts and their placements, then I don't understand why you'd have to have actually been caught by one. Being caught by one doesn't mean you make good placements. There's a certain probability that you'll happen to fall on one that just happens to be good that time.

I assume you've fallen on a cam then, since you don't have the same fear?

Yep, I've fallen quite a few times on cams (over half the times I've fallen, it's been on the same cam. It's kind of an unlucky cam I guess). I also know the physics behind camming devices, and I trust that. All i know about stoppers is they wedge, and you have to rely on the rock that they wedge in to hold you. I have this (irrational) fear that the edge of what my nut is wedged into will maybe chip off slightly in a dynamic fall and that means the whole nut is gone. That's why I have no problem using a nut as an anchor, because the person that's cleaning will never take a dynamic fall

(This post was edited by esander4 on Nov 8, 2010, 10:13 PM)


majid_sabet


Nov 8, 2010, 10:38 PM
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bill413 wrote:
climbingaggie03 wrote:
I'd add some doubles, mostly in the .75 - 3 camalot range (though not necessarily camalots. Maybe a link cam or two and some metolius cams in that range. I also like to have doubles of small cams like yellow and orange metolius.

To specifically know which pieces to buy, I'd look at which pieces you place most, and what size the cracks are when you find you really wish you had a piece, but already placed it.

39 pieces on his rack, and not enough for 60 feet? I really don't think doubling up on random cams will help.

more cams makes you more secure




bill413


Nov 9, 2010, 5:14 AM
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majid_sabet wrote:
bill413 wrote:
climbingaggie03 wrote:
I'd add some doubles, mostly in the .75 - 3 camalot range (though not necessarily camalots. Maybe a link cam or two and some metolius cams in that range. I also like to have doubles of small cams like yellow and orange metolius.

To specifically know which pieces to buy, I'd look at which pieces you place most, and what size the cracks are when you find you really wish you had a piece, but already placed it.

39 pieces on his rack, and not enough for 60 feet? I really don't think doubling up on random cams will help.

more cams makes you feel more secure

[IMG]http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/8678/pict0102t.jpg[/IMG]

Even if unfounded.


Partner j_ung


Nov 9, 2010, 6:39 AM
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I'm going to agree with everybody who suggested that the issue may be less your gear and more the way you use it (or don't as the case may be). Maybe spend some time on easier climbs and force yourself to get comfy with the gear you don't use as much.


malcolm777b


Nov 9, 2010, 7:24 AM
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esander4 wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
esander4 wrote:
My fear comes from never having fallen on a nut (again, i do think I'm pretty proficient at placing nuts so that's not it). Remember that feeling before you ever fell on just a sport route? (I do anyway, I was flippin terrified) Before you fell it was scary, but after you took your first lead fall everything seemed okay. That's kinda how it is I think. I just need to do it and get it over with.

Hmmm. I mean, I see what you're trying to communicate here, but if you really understand what's going on with nuts and their placements, then I don't understand why you'd have to have actually been caught by one. Being caught by one doesn't mean you make good placements. There's a certain probability that you'll happen to fall on one that just happens to be good that time.

I assume you've fallen on a cam then, since you don't have the same fear?

Yep, I've fallen quite a few times on cams (over half the times I've fallen, it's been on the same cam. It's kind of an unlucky cam I guess). I also know the physics behind camming devices, and I trust that. All i know about stoppers is they wedge, and you have to rely on the rock that they wedge in to hold you. I have this (irrational) fear that the edge of what my nut is wedged into will maybe chip off slightly in a dynamic fall and that means the whole nut is gone. That's why I have no problem using a nut as an anchor, because the person that's cleaning will never take a dynamic fall

I sincerely hope you're not serious about not being ok using a nut for lead pro, but are ok with using them for an anchor. The anchor is supposed to be bomber without question. If you're climbing multi-pitch, it should be good enough to take worst case scenario conditions (ff2). I'm not saying there's anything wrong with using nuts in an anchor (I prefer having at least one bomber nut in my anchors), but if you aren't confident in your nuts, do you really think you should be building anchors with them?


spikeddem


Nov 9, 2010, 7:54 AM
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esander4 wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
esander4 wrote:
My fear comes from never having fallen on a nut (again, i do think I'm pretty proficient at placing nuts so that's not it). Remember that feeling before you ever fell on just a sport route? (I do anyway, I was flippin terrified) Before you fell it was scary, but after you took your first lead fall everything seemed okay. That's kinda how it is I think. I just need to do it and get it over with.

Hmmm. I mean, I see what you're trying to communicate here, but if you really understand what's going on with nuts and their placements, then I don't understand why you'd have to have actually been caught by one. Being caught by one doesn't mean you make good placements. There's a certain probability that you'll happen to fall on one that just happens to be good that time.

I assume you've fallen on a cam then, since you don't have the same fear?

Yep, I've fallen quite a few times on cams (over half the times I've fallen, it's been on the same cam. It's kind of an unlucky cam I guess). I also know the physics behind camming devices, and I trust that. All i know about stoppers is they wedge, and you have to rely on the rock that they wedge in to hold you. I have this (irrational) fear that the edge of what my nut is wedged into will maybe chip off slightly in a dynamic fall and that means the whole nut is gone. That's why I have no problem using a nut as an anchor, because the person that's cleaning will never take a dynamic fall

Right. Because, rock breaking is less of an issue when it comes to the increased forces of spring-loaded caming devices? Yeah, okay.

I find it incredibly unlikely that you really understand the physics behind a spring-loaded caming device, but doubt the principles behind passive protection. So much so, that I'm feeling that my suspicion that you're trolling is confirmed. Enjoy your thread.


vegastradguy


Nov 9, 2010, 8:14 AM
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esander4 wrote:

Yep, I've fallen quite a few times on cams (over half the times I've fallen, it's been on the same cam. It's kind of an unlucky cam I guess). I also know the physics behind camming devices, and I trust that. All i know about stoppers is they wedge, and you have to rely on the rock that they wedge in to hold you. I have this (irrational) fear that the edge of what my nut is wedged into will maybe chip off slightly in a dynamic fall and that means the whole nut is gone. That's why I have no problem using a nut as an anchor, because the person that's cleaning will never take a dynamic fall

The second part of this paragraph tells me that you understand how cams work, but you have no clue about the actual physics of what occurs when a cam is loaded.

At the end of the day, rock quality is what determines if any piece of pro is going to hold. If you think that if the edge of the rock will break (and it occasionally does when stoppers are loaded) the stopper will blow, then you're either not placing your stoppers correctly or you should go back to ground school and learn more about how pro in general works. probably both.

in terms of aid- get two 48" slings and tie knots in them, borrow/use a couple of daisies, and aid a normally free climbable pitch. it doesnt have to be comfortable- thats not the point of the exercise.


esander4


Nov 9, 2010, 8:44 AM
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Re: [spikeddem] Additions to rack? [In reply to]
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spikeddem wrote:
esander4 wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
esander4 wrote:
My fear comes from never having fallen on a nut (again, i do think I'm pretty proficient at placing nuts so that's not it). Remember that feeling before you ever fell on just a sport route? (I do anyway, I was flippin terrified) Before you fell it was scary, but after you took your first lead fall everything seemed okay. That's kinda how it is I think. I just need to do it and get it over with.

Hmmm. I mean, I see what you're trying to communicate here, but if you really understand what's going on with nuts and their placements, then I don't understand why you'd have to have actually been caught by one. Being caught by one doesn't mean you make good placements. There's a certain probability that you'll happen to fall on one that just happens to be good that time.

I assume you've fallen on a cam then, since you don't have the same fear?

Yep, I've fallen quite a few times on cams (over half the times I've fallen, it's been on the same cam. It's kind of an unlucky cam I guess). I also know the physics behind camming devices, and I trust that. All i know about stoppers is they wedge, and you have to rely on the rock that they wedge in to hold you. I have this (irrational) fear that the edge of what my nut is wedged into will maybe chip off slightly in a dynamic fall and that means the whole nut is gone. That's why I have no problem using a nut as an anchor, because the person that's cleaning will never take a dynamic fall

Right. Because, rock breaking is less of an issue when it comes to the increased forces of spring-loaded caming devices? Yeah, okay.

I find it incredibly unlikely that you really understand the physics behind a spring-loaded caming device, but doubt the principles behind passive protection. So much so, that I'm feeling that my suspicion that you're trolling is confirmed. Enjoy your thread.

I sincerely apologize for paling in comparison to your infinite wisdom, especially when it comes to knowing everything about someone you've never met.

I also apologize that everyone cannot be as fearless as you. I said my fear was irrational, but nope, that's just not good enough for you. You're going to attack what I know about climbing. That's okay, because I'm convinced that you just don't listen because i said multiple times, "It is irrational, but I don't feel comfortable with the idea of it...." (paraphrased, but you get the idea). I said I want to be more comfortable with taking a fall on a nut before I do it. That's it! It's a forum. I'm on here to get advice. If you don't want to give it, fine. But don't bother to say anything at all then.


esander4


Nov 9, 2010, 8:52 AM
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Re: [vegastradguy] Additions to rack? [In reply to]
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vegastradguy wrote:
esander4 wrote:

Yep, I've fallen quite a few times on cams (over half the times I've fallen, it's been on the same cam. It's kind of an unlucky cam I guess). I also know the physics behind camming devices, and I trust that. All i know about stoppers is they wedge, and you have to rely on the rock that they wedge in to hold you. I have this (irrational) fear that the edge of what my nut is wedged into will maybe chip off slightly in a dynamic fall and that means the whole nut is gone. That's why I have no problem using a nut as an anchor, because the person that's cleaning will never take a dynamic fall

The second part of this paragraph tells me that you understand how cams work, but you have no clue about the actual physics of what occurs when a cam is loaded.

At the end of the day, rock quality is what determines if any piece of pro is going to hold. If you think that if the edge of the rock will break (and it occasionally does when stoppers are loaded) the stopper will blow, then you're either not placing your stoppers correctly or you should go back to ground school and learn more about how pro in general works. probably both.

in terms of aid- get two 48" slings and tie knots in them, borrow/use a couple of daisies, and aid a normally free climbable pitch. it doesnt have to be comfortable- thats not the point of the exercise.

Well, I do understand the physics of cams. Maybe not as well as some people on here, but I take 300 level physics courses where I go to college and have taken 3 climbing pro classes that were offered. So I'm definitely no expert but I do know. It's a mental thing. I think if i can place a cam deeper, there more rock. So, more mass, more strength. That's all I meant. I realize a cam will exert more force, but if there's a greater amount of rock to take that force then it should hold better right? (Wrong, I know. But like i said before, it is irrational) That's why, as I've said, all i think it will take is just to fall on one to get over my mental block.


vegastradguy


Nov 9, 2010, 11:40 AM
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Re: [esander4] Additions to rack? [In reply to]
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esander4 wrote:
I think if i can place a cam deeper, there more rock. So, more mass, more strength.

apply this to stopper placements and you'll be good to go. stoppers placed on the outer edge of a crack are, like cams, going to be weaker and less solid than stoppers placed deeper in the crack. a buried stopper is a happy stopper.


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